Christmas Day Disaster

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James white you know something really good about knowing the truth and Bowing to the truth even when it's unpopular right as we are going on the air today the great the venerable

Turretin fan A man who is far beyond me in so many areas and yet the the poor fellow

He has to be constantly Accused of being my lackey simply because he's not as well known as I am people think that I'm the puppet master behind all these people on the web pulling their strings and it's

It's hilarious, but people think especially Catholics. I'm sorry, but a lot of you Roman Catholics really are new conspiracy theories are but anyway, he just popped a a

URL and channel and Mark Shea, I actually took him off my

RSS feed recently because I just I Just couldn't stand the the attitude that he's the man's got a bad attitude.

He really really does but he Just put up a blog post today, let me well, it's

It's got a little background. So just very briefly. He had taken a shot at Turretin fan yesterday because Turretin fans somewhat of a

Puritan you see him and Mark Shea detests all Calvinists He could not say an honest accurate word about Calvinist of his life depend on but so Turretin fan had responded to him and Had made mention of the article that he posted on on our blog about Mary I hope you read that one an article by Arturo Vasquez that really again illustrates the the level of Idolatry that is inherent in the

Roman Catholic teachings on Mary no matter how Mark Shea or anybody else tries to spin it

Anybody who can step back far enough look at the scriptures sees this So Shea just put up this morning

There's only one of me and lots of stuff in the web Thanks the ironic midwifery of Turretin fan

I got introduced to a quite lovely article by Arturo Vasquez does a beautiful job of pushing back against the

Mary of phobic response syndrome Don't you love that Mary a phobic response syndrome

They characterize as so much of any Catholic polemic what turds and fan regards is inappropriate Mariolatory is in fact simply

Vasquez's articulate defense of the piety that has sustained the ordinary faithful for two millennia

While the clever boys with the book learning were quite often screwing things up There's Mark Shea for you

I'm glad to hear him on record there Because I would again recommend that you read both turds and fans article and Arturo Vasquez's article if you just want to see a a really really good example of just how

Well idolatrous These types of things can be how far removed from biblical Christianity that kind of Marian piety is and yet for Mark Shea It's just a part of the faith.

It's just it's just there and that's that's that's not too unusual by the way today

I will also take your questions We already have two over three phone lines filled up eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

I'll be taking your questions as well by Twitter. Yes, dr. Oakley 1689 I'm sorry,

I did not say I'm going to twit. It's called tweeting not twitting you twit

Yes Let's see, let's see Tom Askew is out there. He's in Twitter land, but he's not asking me any questions but He is in Turkey Which is an interesting place to be took some great videos of baptist trees from the church the

Holy Wisdom Hagia Sophia dating from The fourth century I'm thinking of posting it Now why would

Tom Askew be taking pictures of baptist trees not fonts my friends Baptist trees.

Yes baptism by immersion in the fourth century. Yes Anyway, dr.

Oakley 1689 is my Twitter account and I will be monitoring that during the program today

I was going to install tweet deck on this unit, which is what how I'll do it in the future But I'm sort of downloading a huge bunch of stuff

In fact five gigs and it's about 83 % finished in the other room

So we are really taxing our connection right now And so I just didn't want to be trying to download updates to Adobe air or anything else at the same time

So dr. Oakley 1689 on Twitter. I'm gonna have to keep manually hitting refresh.

So Give me a few moments to get to that. I will try to remember I Do have a question channel a very important question channel question will the

Vikings win the Super Bowl answer? No Even though I was born in Minneapolis and and would love to see it happen the answer historically speaking could be no

They've gone there four times and I never got out of it live. So The chances aren't very very good.

Will the Saints win the Super Bowl? Well Fibbion channel is going to be a very disconsolate soul if they do not

But the last two games haven't been pretty so I don't know who's gonna win the Super Bowl The Colts should not have pulled

Manning. They shouldn't have done it You just when you start sitting people that never works. It's just you got to keep winning.

That's just that's just bad So anyway, it's not gonna get into any of that because that's not really our reason for being here

It is the end of the year before we get to our phone calls. I did want to Just mention a couple things

People one of the most common questions that is given to me when

I do radio appearances Television appearances interviews, whatever else

I might have the opportunity of doing What do you see is the greatest challenge facing the church today?

Now that's such a you know, it sounds so insightful, but it's generally, you know It's it's such a broad thing that it gives you the opportunity to go off on whatever sermon

You know you have prepared that you'd like to present that particular point in time I would first say

In answer that question generally is is more of a cultural Commentary on where we are today and The reason

I mentioned this is because it just seems that our culture flows with such rapidity and ease into the church that the church that people see

So much reflects our culture, I think it's one of the greatest problems we have The church as a whole has decided it wants to look like the culture embrace the way the culture thinks and We are facing the onslaught of secularism in in the

United States and in Western Societies today and Do not doubt for a second that Once the radicals have the opportunity of doing so Once the radical leftists have the opportunity so they will shut down free speech

They they they I mean look look what happened years ago when I debated Barry Lynn who is way out in the left wing of things

He tried to sue us to suppress the videotapes of the debate here's a guy who has testified before Congress that child pornography might be protected under under free speech laws and yet Very clearly for the people on the left free speech is only for the people on the left

It's not for people on the right They can always find ways around it And I think one of the greatest threats one of the greatest things for us to be looking at in 2010 since everyone's talking about that is

The continuing decline in the freedom that we have to do exactly what we're doing right now To express openly our beliefs to speak openly to dialogue to debate

The left does not want that Any extremes on either side don't want that let's just put it that way and I think that is undoubtedly something we need to we need to keep in mind and keep watching for is the erosion of our freedoms our free speech freedoms and the secular left's expression of its hatred of Christianity big big big time now

I also think that when we really Talk about things that are really have really just jumped in the center of my

Radar screen shall we say as to big issues? It will come as no one no surprise to anyone who has listened to the dividing line for a period of time at all now

That the rise of what calls itself the mere Christianity movement

That's I have not seen that term utilized But I'm hearing that phraseology utilized by a number of people remember when

Frank Beckwith was on Greg Cockell's radio program, and they were talking about well Are you going to become a

Catholic apologist well? You know you know I've always referred to myself more of us as a mere Christianity type guy remember that's what

Frank Beckwith said and Then in the debate that I played portions of recently between Dinesh D'Souza Dennis Prager and Christopher Hitchens Dinesh D'Souza I'm more of a mere

Christianity type guy Now that's of course the same debate where Dinesh D'Souza you know ushered all the

Jewish people into the kingdom and so on and so forth and showed no understanding of the particularity of the

Messiahship of Jesus and the gospel itself this type of mere Christianity as Very much, what's behind the

Manhattan Declaration as well? It is a gospel -less faith now don't get me wrong

Everybody in the mere Christianity movement Talks about the gospel, but the point is they can't define it in such a way that it defines the faith they have removed the gospel from being definitional of what the

Christian faith is and they're attempting to create a unity a harmony a

Communion based upon a Trinitarianism That never accomplishes anything

Because you see the greatest way in which the Trinity is Glorified is in the gospel.

The gospel is a triune act But take the gospel out make the gospel a least common denominator type thing where well you believe in Jesus Well, what does that mean?

Well, we really don't want to get into details because that will divide us see and we we don't want to be Divided and you see in in in these days with the secular forces coming at us

We need to stand together you people who are divisive. You need to stop you need to stop worrying about these

You know counting your theological noses You need to you need to stick with all with everybody else and and you're you're causing more of the problems

And you see the force that's going to be coming against us the kind of argumentation If you really love people then you're gonna and all of it comes back to the gospel does not define the faith and I think that that pressure is going to grow and grow and it feeds right into the general ignorance of much of evangelicalism today to begin with that And there's and there's not only ignorance in the sense of well, you know, you've got the sort of Joel Osteen's out there

You know where you just smile and the Gospels a little something to make you Healthier wealthier or whatever that I'm not even talking about that area

But you you have also What has been rightly described as the data fog?

What do I mean by that? Well, you've probably heard the term we have so much stuff around us

We have so much data heading us every single day It has been estimated that and I've heard different estimates, but I don't think there's any question

That most of us hear more World news if we're willing to expose ourselves to if we watch them some cable news

We have our RSS feeds we hear more about world events in a week than most people did only 300 years ago in their entire life their entire life

Because news moved so slowly There was not nearly as much coverage unless you were a historian or something like that and we just get blasted by this stuff

Well, I think that feeds into this as well. And that is we hear about all of the controversies

Have you noticed every two or three years there's some new big controversy the new perspective on Paul federal vision ism they would they would wash over us and what happens is

I'm seeing more and more people to develop a form of burnout and It basically goes like this

Well, if there's so many good people who disagree on so many things then no one can really know anything.

I But da Carson says that I can never be as smart as those guys so We really can't know we need to become agnostic about all these things and that feeds into forms of spiritualism and you know

All sorts of meditational ism and stuff like that because well, you know, it's it's not to be found in truth it's to be found in experience and and I think that is

Feeding into this as well, you know, I've heard all these discussions about the gospel you Calvinists you

Armenians You know, no one really knows. How can we make that definitional just as long as you believe in Jesus?

Let's all just get along. And So I really think that that's where a lot of this is going

I See that as one of the major issues in the next Period of time is this this push to create a

Christian unity that has no gospel Right now it's Trinitarian though. There are people

I think at the fringes that would like to see that taken out, too Maybe just monotheistic. How's that?

You know, I mean the Trinity stuff. Come on who really believes that right? I mean that that requires you to believe in biblical inspiration and all the other kind of stuff

That's what I see going down the road notice. I didn't mention Islam Because there are enough Muslims in the United States for that to be an issue as far as I'm taking over But we certainly see that in Europe and We certainly see

Europe shows us one thing That secularism cannot stand before and on a marching

Islam can't stand. Well, it runs and hides and collapses and That's that's that's a that's a fact.

So just some thoughts here at the end of the year 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 or on Twitter dr.

Oakley 1689 dr. Oakley 1689 is how you can Give me your comment or your question, whatever else it might be today.

Let's get to our phone calls Even though we're two hours early today. We still have phone callers. That's a wonderful thing It's 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 and let's talk with Dustin.

Hi Dustin Dr. White, how you doing doing? Well, I'm an elder at a small

Sovereign Grace Baptist Church And we want to start a weekly evangelistic outreach to a university near our church

And I'm calling because I'd appreciate any advice you could offer in regards to starting a ministry like this

I've got a couple of questions. I'd like to run by you and get your thoughts on it. You don't mind. Okay? First has to do with the method of engagement

I'm kind of thinking open -air preaching one -on -one or do both if possible. And the reason why

I mentioned that is Anybody that doesn't search on YouTube can see that many so -called campus preachers have cast a very bad light

Upon open -air preaching on campus. Yeah, not to mention that most of the fact a lot of these guys are just outright heretic and I mentioned this because We're trying to decide what would be the best way the most useful way to engage in apologetic interaction with folks who

Would would at least be willing to listen to what we have to say and We're pretty aware of the possible limitations that can be there with interacting with especially with a highly skeptical crowd, right?

An example would be like you've got a crowd of rabid atheists making signs saying there is no God I mean, is it really wise to try to preach to people like that open -air?

So yeah, they see where I'm going with that. Yeah. Well a lot of it does come down to the kind of context and The kind of people that you draw.

I mean certain campuses are going to be different than others. Each campus has its own particular I don't know flavor to it.

I guess you might say some are going to be more open to that than others The people who do the preaching need to be individuals who

Know what they're doing and know where they're going. It can be a very challenging thing to attempt to do that Especially with hecklers and things like that that can sort of shut things down obviously there needs to be enough people that there can be people in the crowd to sort of Peel off people that are showing interest start conversations that type of thing

The the message that is being presented needs to be done in such a way as to attract the the attention of the the college student without at the same time insulting them by Becoming so quote -unquote modernistic and flashy that it's

Obviously compromises the message that the person wants to present but it really does depend I mean some sometimes you can get a real good conversation going in that way sometimes you can't sometimes it's it's better to just distribute literature and to try to do more private things, so you don't have the

Crowd mentality that develops unfortunately that it sometimes attracts people when we are up in Salt Lake City when we

Didn't have the raucous large groups we we generally could have much more profitable conversations with people

Much longer -term conversations things like that the whole reason we stopped the outreach up there was because the people that showed up were so raucous and nasty that They weren't there to have meaningful conversations.

They were there to stop all meaningful conversations and unfortunately, you can you know invest your time and effort to start something like that and then when somebody else shows up and they

They want to do that. You really can't stop them. There's there's not anything you can do along those lines So it's always good not to just quote -unquote put all your eggs in one basket as far as that goes

One of the campus groups years ago I've told the story had me on campus and they they had a get -together where they had me come and speak and it was called stump the chump and They also offered free pizza so if you can find a local pizzeria that you can get in good with that that will help a lot too because It seems that college university students for some reason like to eat

I'm not sure exactly what it is, but That obviously, you know bring in a speaker that can in a more controlled environment rather than just open -air

Where you have the food afterwards? It can also be a rather effective way of doing things and then peeling off conversations at that point making literature available

You know, wherever else it might be and you can also Establish your group on campus or if there's already an established group you can be working with you can you can raise the awareness of their being there through debates

For example, the atheists and skeptics were the ones that were behind my debate with Dan Barker at the

University of Illinois last April and that generally helps people to realize that there is such a group and People can contact them and so on and so forth.

So those are those are a couple of ideas along those lines All right. Yeah, that's that's where we're going

We want to eventually get to where we can develop some type of on -campus ministry There's nothing reformed on the campus that I'm thinking about right now.

It's very liberal very hedonistic very postmodern materialism naturalism

Just name it. It's given way to a rampant hedonism and it's this particular school that I'm thinking of but the goal would be to eventually have some type of regular weekly meeting with some students where Maybe we could have some interactions with the skeptic atheist society and then

Eventually have you or somebody else who is able to come in and we could set up a debate or something like that, right?

our city desperately needs Something to that nature to get people thinking and interacting

Taking the claims of Christ seriously. So yeah, well and you're calling from North Carolina and You know people would say oh aren't isn't everything in North Carolina nice and still

Conservative everything else and as you know, not even close Yeah, very very liberal

Yeah, we do open -air preaching just in there are a lot of public venues in our area during the summertime when the weather's nice And warm and people are out and about and a lot of people that I bump up Against after we've done open -air preaching.

We'll take turns and while While people are sitting and listening to the preacher I'll go up and talk to them and I'll ask them questions and I made a lot of material

I made a lot of anti -supernaturalists a lot of postmodernists and One of the things that you mentioned in your opening comments about just this huge Amount of information that people have access to one of the things that I run into is well, how do you really know?

I mean this guy here's got this interpretation and this person over here's wrote this book and there's just such a massive amount of information that there is a

I Guess for lack of a better term at this point a prevailing underlying skepticism about just about everything.

Yeah And it makes it difficult and you know, I could imagine not being a Calvinist Oh, you're right.

Yeah, you're right on both both ends there I mean that is I think one of the biggest things that we are facing now is a prevailing agnosticism that is based upon The awareness of this massive body of literature and opinion

I don't think previous generations until maybe they were doing their highest level of scholarship were aware of the wide number of opinions and viewpoints that are out there now that You know and and a hundred years ago

You would hopefully have enough discernment by that point to be able to recognize the origin of Many of these opinions and to recognize that not all opinions are equal opinions

But now today you have the idea that you have to give equal weight to every opinion whether the person has any meaningful background in the subject or not, but then

You're not allowed to filter opinions based upon a recognition of worldview errors that that that's that's that's out

And so you have this this encounter with all this information being pushed farther and farther down into a person's youth where they lack the discernment and the maturity to be able to In a meaningful fashion work through these things and to recognize

Inconsistencies to recognize that you know, a person can be a great scholar in one area It doesn't make him a great scholar in another area.

You can be a great scholar of biblical history, but still be a complete heretic There's just all sorts of basic fundamental things that they lack and so it's just easier to throw your hands up in the air and Say ah, whatever.

How can anyone really? seriously say there's a truth in all of this and yeah, that's

Far more of a common thing today than it was even a generation ago Where do you think that this is going as far as this type of?

Underlying agnosticism just about information in general and our interaction with unbelievers Do you think it's going to get any better?

Do you see any kind of light on the horizon? Well, you know, it's do

I see a light on the horizon? That's it's just a semi -trailer. It's a good enough to run run me over but I know

I I Recognize it. I think we need to start dealing with it more openly and and basically training our own people how to think how to how to chart their way through this maze of stuff and and to think presuppositionally to examine the foundations of arguments to be able to see how

Entire ranges of arguments are very much related to the same errors of worldview and so on so forth

You know the the information for example coming out in the intelligent design area is is fascinating I mean, it's it's it's so obvious.

There's never been as a generation that has more Evidence of God's fingerprints in his creation than this one there.

I mean, there's just no question about that and yet To even be able to understand what a irreducibly complex mechanism is takes a certain level of thought that Sadly a lot of folks today.

They have such short attention spans aren't even willing to to invest in so It's it's going to take the church to be much more serious in its instruction in its modeling of how we think how we how we handle the scriptures and Doing what you're talking about and that is training people to engage this culture and to recognize

How to deal with the skepticism and things like that to point out remember always remember whoever you're talking to And I I saw this and I hope

I I hope this was just an out -of -context citation but I saw someone quoting dear brother

Bruce where Bruce's is a professor at Southern Seminary and Somebody quoted him as saying that presuppositionalists do not believe that there is any

Common ground with unbelievers and that's just not true Presuppositionalists very firmly believe

That they the the common ground we have with everyone is that they are created in the image of God That they bear the image of God and therefore no matter how skeptical they might be

That image is still there and they are not living in a consistent way with their own

Set of presuppositions they they have to contradict God's world to live the way that they're living and so you can press that and That that I think is always an effective direction to go because they are living in such a way that they don't live in agnosticism

There's all sorts of areas. They will not allow that agnosticism to to flourish except in the areas where it will help them to avoid dealing with the

God who is there and that's where the The preaching of the God's moral law really can cut through a lot of that Because a person who can sit there and spout philosophy and skepticism at you all day long still feels guilt when he sends and So there there is a

I think a mechanism for getting past that. So All right. Yep.

Thank you very much. I appreciate your time and I will probably get to see you here You speak at the nature and sufficiency scripture conference coming up in March.

All right. I'm looking forward to it. All right Take care. Thank you. Bye -bye 877 -753 -3341 or dr.

Oakley 1689 on Twitter Let's talk with Jason hi

Jason. Hey, how you doing? Dr. White? Thank you for taking my call. Yes, sir Good Yeah, I wanted to ask you kind of an off -the -wall question.

I'm dealing with a fellow right now who wrote an article Which he entitled the

Gnostics are back with a new name the reformers I'm not sure if you've ever dealt with anything quite like this.

Well, it depends on whether he's making a serious connection or not Well, he's attempting to that's for sure.

I don't know how serious, you know his research was or anything But I just want to kind of read you a few select things that he says very briefly

He says over the years there was one of you know One thing about the reform movement that is always not a way at me

Why do reform groups always remind me so much that Gnostics and then he kind of goes on to say the reason they both seem so much alike is because they both

Start from the same foundation Platonism and he tries to go on to make a connection that Augustine was influenced by by Platonism which obviously influenced the

Gnostics and he sends Calvin was was you know drew from Augustine well, then that must mean the reformers were high, you know highly influenced by Gnosticism and Exactly, what is it about reformed theology that is platonic and unbiblical from his perspective then right?

well, that's the thing that I have a hard time trying to decipher but basically his conclusion is that reform teachings are nothing more than a

Continuation of the Gnostic efforts to bring Greek philosophy into the church The reform movement has served only to propel

Gnostic teachings Further into the church body as a whole to make it popular, especially among young people and Basically is one of his major connections was that Gnostics claimed to have an enlightened and enlightened understanding of God and Reformers did the same so that's one parallel that he's trying to draw from I See.

All right. Well, I'll tell you what Could can I hold you over the break and then come back with you on that?

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Thank you I took that break.

I was gonna skip the break and continue on with Jason but Two of our regular users one of which is one of my ops got g -lined out of our channel right at the end of that phone call right at the end of my conversation

I had to go in and Ask the IRC ops to pull the pull the g -line on turrets and fan and khaki

So that's why we need to do that. But that's okay. We'll go back with Jason and Jason. Let me unfortunately everything that you read to me was so vague and and so fluffy that it's very difficult to to bite into anything because The entire worldview of the

Reformers is so fundamentally opposite that of the Gnostics in regards to dualism in regards to the creator of the world in regards to the inspiration of scripture in regards to redemption sin man

That either a person is just is not even being serious Or they're grossly ignorant of what the

Gnostics were all about in the first place. They've maybe heard the term and and I heard that the

Gnostics were into You know personal enlightenment through the gaining of knowledge, etc, etc.

And therefore they Connect anything It's even remotely like that to the Gnostics without knowing what the Gnostics meant by that and how it functioned their worldview

Most of them have never read Almost anything outside of the Gospel of Thomas if they've even read that and that's not an overly overly

Gnostic document in the first place They've they've not looked at much of the rest of the stuff to even begin to see the massive massive chasm that separates the biblical exegesis and and teaching and and theology of the

Reformers and the Gnostics and so there are some times when you can rightly

Make a connection between the ancient Gnostics and some certain people today, but generally

You have to be somewhat careful at that point. I mean for example, I've used Gnosticism as an example in dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses because they interpret

Colossians chapter 1 in a way that would have Crippled Paul's apologetic against the proto

Gnosticism that he's dealing with in Colossae But that's not the same thing as saying that the that the Jehovah's Witnesses are

Gnostics there might be a parallel in one area where by their reduction of Jesus they are playing with a

Perspective that the Gnostics came up with but as far as a consistent worldview type thing That's not even a meaningful connection

And so I try to be careful along those lines mainly because especially the Gnostic label is so often used as a bat

Just to beat somebody over the head and it's not really a meaningful connection Anyways, and since I didn't that's why I was asking.

Well, can you give some examples doesn't like that? The only thing I heard was well, you know this Enlightenment idea. Well, no, no, we've none of the

Reformers Taught that you're you were able to escape the imprisonment of your body

Through the taking in of secret knowledge. I mean, that's what the Gnostics meant by that So I just don't see that it has any kind of meaningful connection whatsoever.

It sounds like people who get a little bit more knowledge than they have wisdom and like to show it off and You know write this stuff all the time.

There's people on the web that do that constantly Right. That's why the web has to keep getting bigger to contain all the stuff.

It really doesn't need to have anyways One example that he that he does try to give is he tries to relate the doctrine of total depravity

Kind of you know saying that that was kind of drawn from Gnosticism It's drawn from the

Psalter in the book of Genesis, but that does it does it I mean, come on Let's let's face it. Is he honest enough to say?

Well, they said they were taking it from from the scriptures But they actually are taking this from from Gnostic sources and the actual

Teaching of these biblical texts is this and provide meaningful exegesis Yeah, right and that's not that's not happening whatsoever now there's there's there's none of that happening in this article, but um you know a

I mean one of the things he says he says that a Gnostic so the reformers like the

Gnostics plan to have this enlightened understanding of God and that those who did not hold their teachings or Do not possess

Or as the same proponent I referred to earlier they they they have an unconverted soul that remains totally depraved so basically

No, but see he doesn't even I would like to think that he would realize that the

Gnostics who believe that they had these enlightened Views did not derive these line views from Scripture They they only were able to obtain these things through contemplation or through the secret the secret knowledge that would not be available to everyone

That's what made them above other people is the secret knowledge the Reformers Attacked anybody who believed that there was some source of secret knowledge

They appealed directly to that which was the common common possession of everyone and that was the scriptures and so to miss the fundamental difference between the epistemology being utilized by the

Reformers now the Gnostics again is to Abuse the historical sources and abuse the the

Reformers as well Again, it's it's hard to have a lot of respect for that kind of thing Right.

Yeah. Well, I mean I looked at it is completely off the wall and crazy But I just had never heard anything like that and I was wondering if you had ever heard anything like that Yeah, I do.

I hear it primarily like I said from from the people that are generally in post they're in their master's level studies and They all of a sudden have discovered that they are the most brilliant person on the earth and that the entire world needs to benefit from their brilliance and so they write long tomes on the internet and That's generally where I hear it from Yeah Yeah Have a good have a good

New Year's It's seven seven seven five three three three four one

Twitter. Dr. Oakley is 1689 16 89 dr.

Oakley 1689 no one's done that yet. I'm sort of feeling a little unloved on Twitter right now No, rich, you're not to get on Twitter and send me anything because I would know it was you

But so far only Tom Askew and he's not talking about me He's talking about being in Turkey with New Year's coming up and that's about all there is to that Eight seven seven seven five three three four one.

Let's talk with David. Hi David. Hey, how you doing? Dr. White doing good Got a comment before I got a question.

I'm a monarchist and I love it when you talk about Islam I know what you said on the last show about how the

Calvinists rule their eyes and I'm saying we need more of that Actually, I didn't say the Calvinist does

I said that many people go Why don't you quit talking about that and talk about Calvinism because there's

I do realize that there are there are reformed folks who are serious about those things, but the fact the matter is there's a there's a large swath of folks that You know as soon as I say something in Arabic You know a name mentioned the

Quran whatever else it might be you know, they're they're looking for another podcast to listen to and you know

I'm not saying that you have to have the same interests that I do But I do think that if you're going to as a

Christian respond in a theologically Instructable way

Informed way is the proper term looking for? You you can't turn on your television

Open up your RSS feeds open up a newspaper, whatever else today without running into Islam And if you don't have some kind of foundational

Basis upon which to interpret these things and it if you don't get it from us You're getting it from CNN for crying out loud and that is really gonna confuse

No kidding, yeah, you can get their English feed and I've got their English feed my RSS feeds So anyway, so yeah,

I wasn't saying they weren't weren't Calvinist But I I unfortunately many happen to be Calvinist Yeah Well, I would like to think that Calvinist generally would be more would be more quick to recognize the need

To give a meaningful response, but I don't know it's hard to say. But anyways, that wasn't your question.

Okay? Yeah, and my question does Test some of your Arabic teaching and training that you've had

I Know in the the post that you had on the blog and I think you mentioned it on the last the previous dividing line about sir, a 929

Mm -hmm and and in use of Ali Translation where and I got it right here where he the last word of that verse where he talks about the jizya and that The people of the book feel themselves

Subdued. Mm -hmm. I know you mentioned this before in fact rich can even verify I called up about a month ago asking about this and that I was going to call in the dividing line and waited

But what oh, thanks a lot rich But what what is that word?

I know you've used that argument before and I know that you mentioned to that where Satan uses it elsewhere in the

Quran Actually, it's used it's used of Satan Yeah Boy, I'm not sure

I'm gonna be able to First seven, I think they talk a lot about that Adam and Eve in the fall.

Yes I am I'm doing this online because I didn't have the program up that would allow me to do this any faster

You said that that word had the connotation of? Ashamed. Yeah, that was in the semantic

Range and I'm just really interested about that You were talking about when God chastises the devil right and says that you should feel and whatever this word that you haven't told me it

Yes, yes sir, sir 718 718

God said get out from this disgraced and expelled if any of them follow the hell will

I fill with you all? and I'm Double checking for that disgrace.

That's what yeah I Don't want to Give you something

Without being able to check it out But that is my recollection is that see what I'm referring to is

I don't know about six months or so ago My Arabic tutor and I were working through some

I don't want to use the term synoptic parallel Because that has a specific meaning for us, but there are places where the

Quran tells the same story a lot Well, yeah, and and I've posted a couple of them on my blog.

And so what we were doing is is we are translating sir sir 32 as I recall and surah 7

Where you have the story of Iblis and he refuses to bow down before Adam when he's great

Yeah, which in of itself raises a lot of questions about weird Yeah, and so as we were reading along I my recollection is and I want to double -check this

But I I think I'm right about this. My recollection is that I got here to This particular section in verse 18 of Surah 7 and when we read the disgraced and expelled

I said not Is that the same term that is? used in surah 9 and we went and checked and it was the same route and so I would want to double -check that and Just to make sure that I'm not leading anybody astray, but I think

That that is that that is the case as I'm looking at the two of them here But I'd want to double -check that root if I can look it up if I could see

I know I'm putting on the spot here, but It looks like now,

I don't want to go there right now, I'm looking I'm only looking online so Well, I guess what

I can try to do if I can try to remember this is is throw it up on the blog and So you can Yeah, I'll try to I'll try to I mean it seems like a pretty good argument

I mean because even sir a 929 I Love that one because it's so explicit

It's like I love watching different Muslims and even non -muslims try to get around that one. Well, you know, it's interesting for a lot of reasons

You know, I sort of feel bad for the the non radicalized Muslim who has to try to figure out a way of making

Surah 2 and there's no compulsion religion fit with surah 9 and and the jihad called abrogation

It is yeah abrogation, but it also points to the reality of the fact that When you are a minority prophet in Mecca You're going to be calling for religious freedom and when you become the head of them of the

Muslim armies you're not quite gonna be calling for as much religious freedom and and 929 is clear because it's specifically talking about the people of the book and so it's you know

I've had a lot of Muslims say in fact, there's no there's to my understanding in strict Sharia There is no,

I guess you could say guidelines for the Musharrakeen Musharra kun the polytheist because they're not allowed

Right, you know, it's only Jews and Christians in and sometimes other groups are thrown in there like Zoroastrians or just general theist

But if you're a Hindu you're pagan, right you even need to convert to one of those

Islam or you needed You know head for the hills, right? Yeah Those who are not familiar with sir,

I'm privileged to pay the tax Yeah, those are not familiar with sir 929 fight those who believe not in God nor the last day

Nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and his Apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth

Even if they are of the people of the book until they pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued so obviously

As this has worked out in history And that's a great point I love bringing that out to is other people have read this and say no this isn't just to get out of the army or No, this isn't just some theoretical thing that had application in his own day

This has been cited in you know, Islamic States and they've used it and there's some still do it today

Well, and it you know, it functions in the societies I mean if you when you look in Islamic society when there are

Christians in it, they are always in the the lower classes They it almost functions like the caste system does in India and Hinduism and it's just and this is just one point of that because that there's many many laws with you know,

Fick laws and all the laws in a sure system depending on the school of Islam of What those people can and cannot do there's more than just the tax like you can't hold certain positions

There's other certain things you can or must do things you can't do so it fits in with the whole school of thought

And people rarely talk about that. But I mean, I love this verse for that. Yeah, I'm not sure that I love that I would not say

I love that verse Yeah, and I don't like the book it's coming from yeah,

I like the clarity This is one of the later And that's just it That's that's another thing that I think is interesting to point out is that sir a nine is one of the last that is given in fact when you look at the story of with man's codification of of the

Quran one of the ayahs that is mentioned in Sahih al -Bukhari as Having been found with only one person only one individual knew this particular

Ayah comes from Surah Taba, which is surah nine So since it's one of the last ones given it would have had the the most

Opportunity of not being memorized and not being memorized correctly So you you'd have to wonder if maybe somebody will go after That surah on a textual basis.

They could never get away with it in an Islamic country Oh, yeah To see the liberal

Muslim who tries that and is escorted off of building like the the guy at Hebrew University I think it was yeah, that's right.

That did that but No, I'm yeah, I would I mean if you could ever get to that and and what

I was Tried asking an Arabic speaker. I don't know if you know pastor George. I tried. Yeah.

Yeah, he didn't get back to me I need somebody speaks Arabic is that I mean one it just sounds

I mean the language really sounds cool But I mean just even to know that word and to see that there are those connections that are there

Well, maybe I can maybe I can find a way to pick up my my Arabic tutor have him here for the next next dividing line

We can Involved in this this kind of thing gonna happen, you know, and especially because you've got the textual critical background

You're one of the few people doing that if you come online for Arabic, you know You're gonna get that because there's whole textual issues with the

Quran and textual variants and things like that That have rarely been explored at least in the West, you know Yeah, that's true.

I mean the information's there a lot of folks in New York were amazed back in June when I Put up some of the readings from Ibn Masud's Tradition of the

Quran and showed the changes between that and Uthman you can tell they had never seen anything like that Before so and I used some of the resources that the

Lord has been kindly has given to us along those lines But I'll I'll try to get to that between now and next week and like I said, maybe

Maybe I can get my my tutor to come along and we can I'm just sure there's dozens and dozens of people out there.

They'd be excited to hear All right, thanks

David, all right It's seven seven seven five three three three four one let's

I'm not sure which one's the next number number one or number two number one. Hello Chris Hi James Boyd, yes, sir.

Um I'm an atheist and I go to college at a at a college that's pretty close to North Carolina and It's pretty much

Very liberal like he was describing right? Um, and I was wondering

You're a presumptive official as though you Make certain claims about how atheists can know things and reason correctly how how would you make the distinction between an atheist scientist who they decode the human genome or Creates a vaccine for h1n1 and this is another scientist a colleague of his right next door who uses inferences about that to make statements about Evolutionary history or something that would go contrary to your belief system.

How would you distinguish those two types of reasoning? Well, I'm not sure what you're referring to outside of how would you distinguish two types of reason one is one is one is an is is a factual observation of The physical realm and the other is an extension based upon an application of an errant worldview

I mean one one thing involves What facts are the other involves the interpretation of those facts and application into the past?

so for example Richard Dawkins can have knowledge of the results of the human genome project and can accurately represent

Say the the transcription of DNA or some process like that, which we can observe but then when you point out the rather obvious fact that this involves in essence a digital code a

Complexity that is beyond anything we have yet to even approach in our most sophisticated and complicated design the idea that you could infer from that a

Designer simply is is mocked and and and rejected out of hand

It's not even it's not even given consideration so I think that illustrates the difference between knowing something factually that we all can see and Then the application of the facts that you know via the a particular worldview to conclusions concerning Reality and what is true?

And what is what is false? All right but if you're going to take like for example the digital nature of DNA and use that as an example of the

Perfection of nature. I didn't say anything about the perfection of nature I said a design design in this that is are the fact that it was designed right?

There's a difference between the two, you know Yeah, I know And that why don't you then take the next step and look at all the imperfections in the genetic code?

I don't it's called sin All 10 you said I said it's called sin s I am all 10.

Yeah Result in I guess

B chromosomes Parasitic chromosomes, it's called the curse called the curse called the fall from the

Christian worldview It has to do with the fallenness of nature The fact that we are not to live forever

Especially that's actually an act of mercy on God's part because a person who

Will willfully remain in rebellion against God for the entirety of their life would really rack up quite an account to answer for if they got to live for a couple thousand years or whatever else it might be and so the the reality is that You your first assertion was the assertion you wanted to make and that is the idea of perfection being a necessary Attribute if something is created by God and that's where your your analogy

Fell apart because that's not a part of the Christian worldview It is clearly designed.

There's no question of that It takes a person to be able to look at a blackberry storm and go nap

That's no one designed that to be able to look at the biochemical Machinery of the cell and say that's just natural selection over time except that this is the stuff that makes natural selection possible and To say well,

I'm going to continue to ignore that based upon Imperfections in it assume something that's not there and that is that that initial creation was meant to somehow have a character

Other than the character that God has stamped upon his own creation Okay, but if you're gonna

I'm not I personally Wouldn't use perfection as a criterion to judge design.

I mean I can admit that something can be designed but not perfect Take for example, the chromosomes which are highly complex and highly

I would say evolved to to cause harm on a host population if you're going to take the gene the perfectly functioning genes of Of a species that enables it to survive for example

Hemoglobin, which is very specific and very it has the appearance of design

Likely why wouldn't you and you would say that God designed that why wouldn't you also make the same?

Inference about the chromosomes or parasitic DNA DNA that hops from chromosome to chromosome

That only causes harm Wouldn't you say that that was deliberately created by a designer because I mean

You haven't run to Christians who believe that that God has a sovereign purpose for all things So you're saying that God would intentionally create

DNA that has no purpose except to replicate and to cause harm if See you you are assuming that God that you can figure out what does and does not have purpose from God's perspective

And I'm sorry, Chris. You may be a very intelligent man, but you're not God and actually your knowledge of everything going around right now

I I could accept. I mean, it's perfectly there's nothing logically contradictory about a god that okay so Chris if God if God has a purpose in this world and he is accomplishing his purpose

Then all of the things that go wrong in this world including diseases and things like that He would have to have control over them

Or if he didn't have control over them Then something could develop that could wipe out the entire human race including everybody he wanted to take to heaven, right?

So he must have control over those things, right? I Mean if if God created these things, that's fine.

That's that's a logical worldview, but I don't eat Distance and even Calvinists who pride themselves on being very

Able to confront the problem evil. I don't see them fully taking into account all the negative

Exodus Ford who creates the blind eye the the deaf ear is it not I the Lord Yahweh says that so I I don't

I can only take Responsibility for those who will allow the Bible speak for itself and God is in control of all things in this world he is accomplishing his will and He controls disease.

That's why the Black Plague didn't wipe all of us out he has control over the the natural mechanisms in the world as well and As far as the problem of evil goes we'd have to do a whole nother program as to why that's even an issue for an atheist

When you're nothing but a bunch of atoms banging around but that's that's a subject we could address another time

We've gone over our time. Thanks for calling Chris and thanks for everybody listening to the dividing line today. We will be back

I forgot to make the I've got to turn the calendar in here Yeah, what is that?

Let's see. One two, three four. That's a Tuesday, isn't it? Yes, we will be back on Tuesday, even though that's the fifth fifth of January.

There we go. We'll be back We'll be back then. Anyways, thanks for your calls. Have a Very safe celebration of the new year.

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