Christmas Day Disaster

Christmas Day Disaster

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White.

Marian Idolatry, Mark Shea, and the Roman Catholic Response

You know something really good about knowing the truth and Bowing to the truth even when it's unpopular right as we are going on the air today the great the venerable Turretin fan a Man who is far beyond me in so many areas and yet the the poor fellow He has to be constantly Accused of being my lackey simply because he's not as well known as I am.

People think that I'm the puppet master behind all these people on the web pulling their strings and it's. It's hilarious, but people think especially Catholics. I'm sorry, but a lot of you Roman Catholics really are new conspiracy theories are.

But anyway, he just popped a a URL and channel and Mark Shea, I actually took him off my RSS feed recently because I just I Just couldn't stand the the attitude that he's the man's got a bad attitude.

He really really does but he Just put up a blog post today, let me. Well, it's. It's got a little background. So just very briefly. He had taken a shot at Turretin fan yesterday because Turretin fans somewhat of a Puritan you see him and Mark Shea detests all Calvinists.

He could not say an honest accurate word about Calvinist of his life depend on but so Turretin fan had responded to him and Had made mention of the article that he posted on on our blog about Mary. I hope you read that one an article by Arturo Vasquez that really again illustrates the the level of Idolatry that is inherent in the Roman Catholic teachings on Mary no matter how Mark Shea or anybody else tries to spin it.

Anybody who can step back far enough look at the scriptures sees this. So Shea just put up this morning. There's only one of me and lots of stuff in the web. Thanks the ironic midwifery of Turretin fan.

I got introduced to a quite lovely article by Arturo Vasquez does a beautiful job of pushing back against the Mary of phobic response syndrome. Don't you love that Mary a phobic response syndrome. They characterized as so much of any Catholic polemic what Turretin fan regards is inappropriate.

Mariolatry is in fact simply Vasquez's articulate defense of the piety that has sustained the ordinary faithful for two millennia. While the clever boys with the book learning were quite often screwing things up.

There's Mark Shea for you. I'm glad to hear him on record there. Because I would again recommend that you read both Turretin fans article and Arturo Vasquez's article if you just want to see a really really good example of just how.

Well idolatrous. These types of things can be how far removed from biblical Christianity that kind of Marian piety is and yet for Mark Shea. It's just a part of the faith. It's just it's just there and that's that's that's not too unusual by the way today I will also take your questions.

We already have two over three phone lines filled up eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. I'll be taking your questions as well by Twitter. Yes, dr. Oakley 1689. I'm sorry, I did not say I'm going to twit.

It's called tweeting not twitting. You twit. Yes. Let's see, let's see. Tom Askew is out there. He's in Twitter land, but he's not asking me any questions but He is in Turkey. Which is an interesting place to be took some great videos of baptist trees from the church the Holy Wisdom Hagia Sophia dating from The fourth century.

I'm thinking of posting it. Now why would Tom Askew be taking pictures of baptist trees not fonts my friends. Baptist trees. Yes baptism by immersion in the fourth century. Yes. Anyway, dr. Oakley 1689 is my Twitter accounts and I will be monitoring that during the program today.

I was going to install tweet deck on this unit, which is what how I'll do it in the future. But I'm sort of downloading a huge bunch of stuff. In fact five gigs and it's about 83 finished in the other room.

So we are really taxing our connection right now. And so I just didn't want to be trying to download updates to Adobe air or anything else at the same time. So dr. Oakley 1689 on Twitter. I'm gonna have to keep manually hitting refresh.

So Give me a few moments to get to that. I will try to remember I Do have a question channel a very important question channel question will the Vikings win the Super Bowl answer? No. Even though I was born in Minneapolis and and would love to see it happen the answer historically speaking could be no.

They've gone there four times and I never got out of it live. So The chances aren't very very good. Will the Saints win the Super Bowl? Well Fibbion channel is going to be a very disconsolate soul if they do not.

But the last two games haven't been pretty so I don't know who's gonna win the Super Bowl. The Colts should not have pulled Manning. They shouldn't have done it. You just when you start sitting people that never works.

It's just you got to keep winning. That's just that's just bad. So anyway, it's not gonna get into any of that because that's not really our reason for being here. It is the end of the year before we get to our phone calls.

I did want to Just mention a couple things people. One of the most common questions that is given to me when I do radio appearances Television appearances interviews, whatever else I might have the opportunity of doing.

What do you see is the greatest challenge facing the church today? Now that's such a you know, it sounds so insightful, but it's generally, you know. It's it's such a broad thing that it gives you the opportunity to go off on whatever sermon You know you have prepared that you'd like to present that particular point in time.

The Church's Greatest Challenges: Secularism, Free Speech, and Cultural Conformity

I would first say In answer that question generally is is more of a cultural Commentary on where we are today and The reason I mention this is because it just seems that our culture flows with such rapidity and ease into the church.

That the church that people see So much reflects our culture, I think it's one of the greatest problems we have the church as a whole has decided it wants to look like the culture embrace the way the culture thinks and We are facing the onslaught of secularism in in the United States and in Western societies today and Do not doubt for a second that Once The radicals have the opportunity of doing so.

Once the radical leftists have the opportunity so they will shut down free speech. They they they I mean look look what happened years ago when I debated Barry Lynn who is way out in the left wing of things.

He tried to sue us to suppress the videotapes of the debate here's a guy who has testified before Congress that child pornography might be protected under under free speech laws and Yet Very clearly for the people on the left free speech is only for the people on the left is not for people on the right.

They can always find ways around it. And I think one of the greatest threats one of the greatest things for us to be looking at in 2010 since everyone's talking about that is The continuing decline in the freedom that we have to do exactly what we're doing right now.

To express openly our beliefs to speak openly to dialogue to debate. The left does not want that. Any extremes on either side don't want that let's just put it that way and I think that is undoubtedly something we need to we need to keep in mind and keep watching for is the erosion of our freedoms our free speech freedoms and the secular's left's expression of its hatred of Christianity a big big big time now.

The "Mere Christianity" Movement and a Gospel-Less Unity

I also think that when we really Talk about things that are really have really just jumped in the center of my Radar screen shall we say as to big issues? It will come as no one no surprise to anyone who has listened to the dividing line for a period of time at all now.

That the rise of what calls itself the mere Christianity movement. That's I have not seen that term utilized. But I'm hearing that phraseology utilized by a number of people. Remember when Frank Beckwith was on Greg Cockell's radio program, and they were talking about well.

Are you going to become a Catholic apologist well? You know you know I've always referred to myself more of us as a mere Christianity type guy remember that's what Frank Beckwith said and Then in the debate that I played portions of recently between Dinesh D'Souza Dennis Prager and Christopher Hitchens.

Dinesh D'Souza I'm more of a mere Christianity type guy. Now that's of course the same debate where Dinesh D'Souza you know ushered all the Jewish people into the kingdom and so on and so forth and showed no understanding of the particularity of the Messiahship of Jesus and the gospel itself this type of mere Christianity as.

Very much, what's behind the Manhattan Declaration as well? It is a gospel-less faith now don't get me wrong everybody in the mere Christianity movement Talks about the gospel, but the point is they can't define it in such a way that it defines the faith.

They have removed the gospel from being definitional of what the Christian faith is and they are attempting to create a unity a harmony a Communion based upon a Trinitarianism. That never accomplishes anything.

Because you see the greatest way in which the Trinity is Glorified is in the gospel. The gospel is a triune act. But take the gospel out make the gospel a least common denominator type thing where well you believe in Jesus.

Well, what does that mean? Well, we really don't want to get into details because that will divide us see and we we don't want to be Divided and you see in in in these days with the secular forces coming at us.

We need to stand together you people who are divisive. You need to stop you need to stop worrying about these. You know counting your theological noses. You need to you need to stick with all with everybody else and and you're you're causing more of the problems.

And you see the force that's gonna be coming against us the kind of argumentation. If you really love people then you're gonna and all of it comes back to the gospel does not define the faith and I think that that pressure is going to grow and grow and it feeds right into the general ignorance of much of evangelicalism today to begin with that.

And there's and there's not only ignorance in the sense of well, you know. You've got the sort of Joel Osteen's out there, you know, where you just smile and the Gospels a little something to make you Healthier wealthier or whatever that I'm not even talking about that area.

But you you have also. What has been rightly described as the data fog? What do I mean by that? Well, you've probably heard the term we have so much stuff around us. We have so much data heading us every single day.

It has been estimated that and I've heard different estimates, but I don't think there's any question. That most of us hear more world news if we're willing to expose ourselves to if we watch them some Cable news we have our RSS feeds.

We hear more about world events in a week than most people did only 300 years ago in their entire life their entire life. Because news moved so slowly. There was not nearly as much coverage unless you were a historian or something like that and we just get blasted by this stuff.

Well, I think that feeds into this as well. And that is we hear about all of the controversies. Have you noticed every two or three years? There's some new big controversy the new perspective on Paul federal vision ism they what they would wash over us and what happens is I'm seeing more and more people to develop a form of burnout and It basically goes like this.

Well, if there's so many good people who disagree on so many things then no one can really know anything. I Mean, how could I if if NT Wright says this but the but DA Carson says that I can never be as smart as those.

Guys, so we really can't know we need to become agnostic about all these things and and that feeds into forms of spiritualism and you know. All sorts of meditational ism and stuff like that because well, you know, it's it's not to be found in truth it's to be found in experience and and I think that is Feeding into this as well.

You know, I've heard all these discussions about the gospel you Calvinists you Armenians, you know. No one really knows. How can we make that definitional just as long as you believe in Jesus. Let's all just get along and.

So I really think that that's where a lot of this is going. I See that as one of the major issues in the next Period of time is this this push to create a Christian unity that has no gospel. Right now it's Trinitarian though.

There are people I think at the fringes that would like to see that taken out, too. Maybe just monotheistic. How's that? You know, I mean the Trinity stuff. Come on who really believes that right? I mean that that requires you to believe in biblical inspiration and all that kind of stuff.

That's what I see going down the road notice I didn't mention Islam because there aren't enough Muslims in the United States for that to be an issue as far as I'm taking over. But we certainly see that in Europe and We certainly see Europe shows us one thing.

That secularism cannot stand before and on a marching Islam can't stand well it runs and hides and collapses and That's that's that's a that's a fact so just some thoughts here at the end of the year 877 -753 -3341 or on Twitter dr. Oakley 1689 dr. Oakley 1689 is how you can Give me your comment or your question, whatever else it might be today.

Open-Air Preaching, Campus Outreach, and Training Christians to Think

Let's get to our phone calls. Even though we're two hours early today. We still have phone callers. That's a wonderful thing. 877 -753 -3341 and let's talk with Dustin. Hi Dustin. How you doing?

I'm kind of thinking open-air preaching one-on-one or and the reason why I mentioned that is Upon open-air preaching on campus. Yeah, we're trying to decide what would be the best way the most out, right?

So yeah See where I'm going with that. Yeah. Well a lot of it does. Come down to the kind of context and the kind of people that you draw I mean certain campuses are going to be different than others.

Each campus has its own particular I don't know flavor to it. I guess you might say some are gonna be more open to that than others. The people who do the preaching need to be individuals who Know what they're doing and know where they're going.

It can be a very challenging thing to attempt to do that. Especially with hecklers and things like that that can sort of shut things down obviously there needs to be enough people that there can be people in the crowd to sort of Peel off people that are showing interest start conversations.

That type of thing the message that is being presented needs to be done and in such a way as to attract the the attention of The the college student without at the same time insulting them by Becoming so quote-unquote modernistic and flashy that it's Obviously compromises the message that the person wants to present but it really does depend I mean some sometimes you can get a real good conversation going in that way.

Sometimes you can't sometimes it's it's better to just distribute literature and to try to do more private things so you don't have the Crowd mentality that develops unfortunately that it sometimes attracts people when we are up in Salt Lake City when we Didn't have the raucous large groups we we Generally could have much more profitable conversations with people much longer term conversations things like that the whole reason we stopped the outreach up there was because the people that showed up were so raucous and nasty that They weren't there to have meaningful conversations.

They were there to stop all meaningful conversations and unfortunately, you can you know invest your time and effort to start something like that and then when somebody else shows up and they They want to do that.

You really can't stop them. There's there's not anything you can do along those lines. So it's always good not to just quote-unquote put all your eggs in one basket as far as that goes. One of the campus groups years ago I've told the story had me on campus and they they had a get-together where they had me come and speak and it was called stump the chump and They also offered free pizza so if you can find a local pizzeria that you can get in good with that that will help a lot too because It seems that college university students for some reason like to eat.

I'm not sure exactly what it is, but That obviously, you know bring in a speaker that can in a more controlled environment rather than just open-air Where you have the food afterwards? It can also be a rather effective way of doing things and then peeling off conversations at that point making literature available You know wherever else it might be and you can also Establish your group on campus or if there's already an established group.

You can be working with you can you can raise the Awareness of their being there through debates for example The atheists and skeptics were the ones that were behind my debate with Dan Barker at the University of Illinois last April and that generally helps people to realize that there is such a group and People can contact them and so on and so forth.

So those are those are a couple of ideas along those lines.

Alright, yeah, that's developed some type of atheists like that, right?

Yeah, well and you're calling from North Carolina and. You know people would say oh aren't isn't everything in North Carolina nice and still conservative. Everything else as you know, not even close. Not very liberal.

Yeah.

Yeah, we do open-air preaching just in I mean a lot post-modernist and one of the things that you mentioned. One of the things that I mentioned that. Oh, you're right, yeah, you're right on both both ends there.

I mean that is I think one of the biggest things that we are facing now is a prevailing agnosticism that is based upon The awareness of this massive body of literature and opinion. I don't think previous generations until maybe they were doing their highest level of scholarship or aware of the wide number of opinions and viewpoints that are out there now that you know and and a hundred years ago, you would hopefully have enough discernment by that point to be able to recognize the origin of Many of these opinions and to recognize that not all opinions are equal opinions.

But now today you have the idea that you have to give equal weight to every opinion whether the person has any meaningful background in the subject or not then You're not allowed to filter opinions based upon a recognition of worldview errors.

Oh that that that's that's that's out. And so you have this this encounter with all this information being pushed farther and farther down into a person's youth where they lack the discernment and the maturity to be able to in a meaningful fashion work through these things and to recognize Inconsistencies to recognize that you know, a person can be a great scholar in one area.

It doesn't make him a great scholar in another area. You can be a great scholar of biblical history, but still be a complete heretic. There's just all sorts of basic fundamental things that they lack and so it's just easier to throw your hands up in the air and Say ah, whatever.

How can anyone really? seriously say there's a Truth in all of this and yeah, that's a far more of a common thing today than it was even a generation ago. Well, you know, it's do I see a light on the horizon.

Yeah, it's it's just a semi-trailer it's a good I've got to run run me over but I know I I Recognize it. I think we need to start dealing with it more openly and and Basically training our own people how to think how to how to chart their way through this maze of stuff and and to think presupposition only to examine the Foundations of arguments to be able to see how entire ranges of arguments are very much related to the same errors of worldview and so on so forth.

I You know the the information for example coming out in the intelligent design area is is fascinating. I mean, it's it's it's so obvious. There's never been a generation that has more Evidence of God's fingerprints in his creation than this one there.

I mean, there's just no question about that and yet To even be able to understand what a irreducibly complex mechanism is takes a certain level of thought that Sadly a lot of folks today. They have such short attention spans aren't even willing to to invest in so It's it's going to take the church to be much more serious in its instruction in its modeling of how we think how we how we handle the scriptures and Doing what you're talking about and that is training people to engage this culture and to recognize How to deal with the skepticism and things like that to point out remember always remember whoever you're talking to.

And I I saw this and I hope I I hope this was just an out-of-context citation but I saw someone quoting dear brother Bruce where Bruce's is a professor at Southern Seminary and Somebody quoted him as saying that Presuppositionalists do not believe that there is any Common ground with unbelievers and that's just not true.

Presuppositionalists very firmly believe That they the the common ground we have with everyone is that they are created in the image of God That they bear the image of God and therefore no matter how skeptical they might be That image is still there and they are not living in a consistent way with their own Set of presuppositions they they have to contradict God's world to live the way that they're living and so you can press that and That that I think is always an effective direction to go because they are living in such a way that they don't live in agnosticism.

There's all sorts of areas they will not allow that agnosticism to to flourish except in the areas where it will help them to avoid dealing with the God who is there and that's where the The preaching of of the God's moral law really can cut through a lot of that.

Because a person who can sit there and spout philosophy and skepticism at you all day long still feels guilt when he sins and So there there is a I think a mechanism for getting past that so All right All right, I'm looking forward to it.

All right. Take care. I got this 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 or dr. Oakley 1689 on Twitter Let's talk with.

Jason hi Jason. Hey, how you doing? Dr. White? Thank you for taking my call. Yes, sir. Good. Yeah, I wanted to have. Depends on whether he's making a serious connection or not. Well, he's attempting to.

Exactly. What is it about reformed theology? That is platonic and unbiblical from his perspective then?

Right. Well our movement I.

See, all right. Well, I'll tell you what. Could I hold you over the break and then come back with you on that? Sure. All right. Hold on just one second 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 we'll be right back.

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Thank you.

Break. I was gonna skip the break and continue on with Jason. Two of our regular users one of which is one of my ops got g-lined out of our channel right at the end of that phone call right at the end of my conversation I had to go in and Ask the IRC ops to pull the pull the g-line on turrets and fan and kagi.

That's why we need to do that, but that's okay. We'll go back with Jason and Jason. Let me unfortunately everything that you read to me was so vague and and so fluffy that it's very difficult to to bite into anything because The entire worldview of the Reformers is so fundamentally opposite that of the Gnostics in regards to dualism in regards to the creator of the world in regards to the inspiration of scripture in regards to redemption sin man.

That either a person is just is not even being serious. Or they're grossly ignorant of what the Gnostics were all about in the first place. They maybe heard the term and and I heard that the Gnostics were into You know personal enlightenment through the gaining of knowledge etc. Etc and therefore they Connect anything it's even remotely like that to the Gnostics without knowing what the Gnostics meant by that and how it functioned their worldview.

Most of them have never read Almost anything outside of the Gospel of Thomas if they've even read that and that's not an overly overly Gnostic document in the first place. They've they've not looked at much of the rest of the stuff to even begin to see the massive massive chasm that separates the biblical exegesis and and teaching and and theology of the Reformers and the Gnostics and so there are some times when you can rightly Make a connection between the ancient Gnostics and some certain people today, but generally You have to be somewhat careful at that point.

I mean for example, I've used Gnosticism as an example in dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses because they interpret Colossians chapter 1 in a way that would have Crippled Paul's apologetic against the proto Gnosticism that he's dealing with in Colossae.

But that's not the same thing as saying that the that the Jehovah's Witnesses are Gnostics there might be a parallel in one area where by their reduction of Jesus they are playing with a Perspective that the Gnostics came up with but as far as a consistent worldview type thing.

That's not even a meaningful connection. And so I try to be careful along those lines mainly because especially the Gnostic label is so often used as a bat Just to beat somebody over the head and it's not really a meaningful connection.

Anyways, and since I didn't that's why I was asking well Can you give some examples doesn't like that? The only thing I heard was well, you know this Enlightenment idea. Well, no, no, we've none of the Reformers Taught that you're you were able to escape the imprisonment of your body Through the taking in of secret knowledge.

I mean, that's what the Gnostics meant by that. So I just don't see that it has any kind of meaningful connection whatsoever. It sounds like people who get a little bit more knowledge than they have wisdom and like to show it off and You know write this stuff all the time.

There's people on the web that do that constantly. That's why the web has to keep getting bigger to contain all the stuff. It really doesn't need to have anyways Late John from the Psalter in the book of Genesis, but that does it does it.

I mean, come on, let's let's face it. Is he honest enough to say well, they said they were taking it from from the scriptures. But they actually are taking this from from Gnostic sources and the actual Teaching of these biblical texts is this and provide meaningful exegesis.

I Would like to think that he would realize that the Gnostics who believe that they had these enlightened views did not derive these line views from scripture. They they only were able to obtain these things Through contemplation or through the secret the secret knowledge that would not be available to everyone.

That's what made them above other people is the secret knowledge the Reformers Attacked anybody who believed that there was some source of secret knowledge they appealed directly to that which was the common common possession of everyone and that was the scriptures and so to miss the fundamental difference between the epistemology being utilized by the Reformers now the Gnostics again is to Abuse the historical sources and abuse the the Reformers as well.

Again, it's it's hard to have a lot of respect for that kind of thing. Well, yeah, I do I hear it.

Primarily like I said from from the people that are generally in post they're in their master's level studies and they all of a sudden have discovered that they are the most brilliant person on the earth and that the entire world needs to benefit from their brilliance and so they write long tomes on the internet and.

That's generally where I hear it from. Yeah. Have a good have a good New Year's. 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. Twitter. Dr. Oakley 1689 1689. Dr. Oakley 1689. No one's done that yet. I'm sort of feeling a little unloved on Twitter right now.

No, rich, you're not to get on Twitter and send me anything because I would know it was you. But so far only Tom Askew and he's not talking about me. He's talking about being in Turkey with New Year's coming up and that's about all there is to that.

8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. Let's talk with David. Hi David. Hey, how you doing? Dr. White doing good.

Got a comment before I got a question. I'm a monarchist.

No. Actually, I didn't say the Calvinist as I said that many people go. Why don't you quit talking about that and talk about Calvinism because there's I do realize that there are there are reform folks who are serious about those things, but the fact the matter is there's a there's a large swath of folks that.

You know as soon as I say something in Arabic, you know a name mentioned the Quran whatever else it might be. You know, they're they're looking for another podcast to listen to and you know I'm not saying that you have to have the same interests that I do.

But I do think that if you're going to as a Christian respond in a theologically In Instructable way in informed way is the proper term looking for You you can't turn on your television. Open up your RSS feeds open up a newspaper whatever else today without running into Islam and if you don't have some kind of foundational Basis upon which to interpret these things and it if you don't get it from us.

You're getting it from CNN for crying out loud and that is really gonna confuse. Yeah. No kidding. Yeah, you can get their English feed and I've got their English feed my RSS feeds. So anyway, so yeah, I wasn't saying there weren't weren't Calvinist, but I.

Unfortunately, it happened to be Calvinist. Yeah.

Well, I would like to think that Calvinist generally would be more would be more quick to recognize the need. To give a meaningful response, but I don't know.

It's hard to say but anyways, that wasn't your question, okay. Yeah, and my question does. You I know in the the post that you had on the blog and I think you mentioned it on the last. Mm-hmm, and and in use of all lead.

Mm-hmm. I know you mentioned this before about a month ago asking about this and that I was going to call in the dividing line. I waited but what. Thanks a lot rich. But what what is that word. I know you've used the argument before and I know that you mentioned to that.

Actually, it's used it's used of Satan. Yeah.

Boy, I'm not sure that I'm gonna be able to. Seven. I think they talked a lot about that Adam and Eve in the fall. Yes I am.

I'm doing this online because I didn't have the program up that would allow me to do this any faster.

You said that that word had the connotation of but yeah, that was in the semantic that you were talking about when God Chastises the devil right and says that you should feel and whatever this.