March 16, 2020 Show with Gary DeMar on “The Bible, Pandemics & Quarantine” PLUS Chris MacDowell on “The Christian & Fear”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 16th day of March, 2020.

I'm thrilled to have back as a returning guest someone who was just on the program last week.

His name is Gary DeMar, and he's the president of American Vision. He's also one of my very favorite guests to interview here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and today we are talking about a very timely and important subject, the

Bible, pandemics, and quarantine. That's for the first hour of the program.

The second hour of the program, we are going to be joined by Chris McDowell, one of two pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Quorum, Long Island, New York, and we're going to be discussing the

Christian and fear, and we're also, throughout this broadcast today, going to be announcing a free

Bible conference with Gary DeMar, my first guest, which will be held in Quorum, New York, at Hope Reform Baptist Church on Friday and Saturday of this week.

That's March 20th and 21st, and Gary is also going to be preaching at the

Sunday morning services at Hope Reform Baptist Church on the Lord's Day, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back so soon to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Gary DeMar.

Good to be back. And Gary, it's a no -brainer why you wanted to discuss the theme we are addressing today, the

Bible, pandemics, and quarantine, and we're going to get to that very shortly,

God willing, but first, to satisfy the curiosity of our listeners, why don't you tell our listeners about the

God, the Government, and the Last Days conference that you will be speaking at March 20th and 21st of this week?

Well, I was invited to come up and address those two topics, and I think they're crucial for any time, but where we are politically and theologically in our day,

I think it's important to discuss the topic of government, that government isn't simply political, and I think we put too much stock in government, and the civil dimension of government gives too much power to it, and this is extremely important when we come to something like what's happening with this virus and the implications of it economically, health -wise, and politically.

There will be those out there who will say, we need more government, more control of health care, more distribution of wealth, and so forth and so on, and a lot of people, including

Christians, will panic and say, yes, yes, we need a Savior, very much like when

Jesus fed the 5 ,000, they immediately said, hey, we want to make this guy a king, look, he's going to give us free bread for our lives, but of course

Jesus rejected that idea and hid from them. The federal government already has too much power, and I'm not saying that what it's attempting to do at this point in time is necessarily a bad thing, but there are those within the government who want to make anything that we're doing today permanent, and the civil government,

I think, does have a responsibility dealing with epidemics. My grandparents came over here from Italy more than 100 years ago, and there was a process of coming in, and one of those was checking for diseases, and oftentimes if someone was found to have a disease, they were quarantined as a result of that.

That's a very logical thing to do, and if you think about the Constitution of the

United States, promote the general welfare, this is a general welfare issue, because this is something that affects everyone equally.

Viruses like this don't discriminate against the rich or the poor, they can affect anyone.

General welfare, provide for the general welfare in the Constitution doesn't mean take money from some people and give it to other people.

The Constitution is very specific as to what the federal government ought to do, so we just need to be careful when we look at something like this that's so serious, that we put the role of the civil government, keep it in its proper place, and that this is a temporary thing, and that we should not expand the federal government as a result, and or state governments as a result of this, and that people cry out for a savior out of fear.

Yes, and unfortunately, as you know, these are the kinds of events where those in political authority and power use these circumstances, take advantage of them to flex their muscles, and to really usurp more authority over the citizens than they are constitutionally supposed to have, in my opinion.

Oh yeah, and I want you to think about a few things. Italy has something of a socialized medicine government, and yet it can't handle this deal.

Here in the United States, I remember when this thing started out early, Campbell's Soup Company, I don't know who they're owned by now, but Campbell's Soup Company, when they found out that there was maybe a problem in Iran on certain soups, immediately geared up their manufacturing in order to supply more tomato soup.

Governments and bureaucracies cannot do that. There are certain laws on the books. They've got to get budget things.

They've got to have hearings. They've got to propose this, go to that. The bureaucrats aren't made to do these types of things.

I have a brother -in -law who's in the snack food business, and he sent me a long email about how their company had geared up for this,

I guess months before this happened, not because of this, but just decided they were going to prepare for the possibility of something like this.

They got calls from Giant Eagle and Walmart and other places about, can you supply us with snacks?

We don't want our shelves to be empty. Probably one of the largest snacks companies could not handle this, but this smaller company could.

Overnight, they turned out the ability to get foodstuffs to people.

People can gear up. All the companies can gear up. They don't have to go through a process of governments, bureaucracies, stonewalling, and so forth and so on, and politics, in order to do something.

You might say, well, they're going to make money doing this. You bet they're going to make money doing this. There's nothing wrong with that.

Somebody's got to pay for all this distribution and production and so forth.

They will make money doing this, and you should be thankful for that, because you'll have food on your table as the result of this.

Again, we need to be very careful how much power and authority we give to the federal government.

We already have too much of it. The federal government and state governments just do what they were designed to do constitutionally, and no more than that.

This is an emergency, and there may be some emergency factors that the federal government and the state government need to do, but immediately once the emergency is over, those temporary powers and that temporary authority should go right back to the way they were before, and we'll come out of this well enough.

Well, we will, God willing, repeat this information later on in the broadcast, but this is going to be, as I said, the theme of the conference this

Friday and Saturday, March 20th and 21st, God, the Government, and the Last Days at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, and the website to go to for more information is reformedrookie .com,

reformedrookie .com. You can also go to reformedrookie .net, and at the top of the page, right next to Home, it says

Damar Conference. You click on that, and it has all the details you need. You could also call

Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island at 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711.

Well, it may surprise people to learn that in the midst of this scary situation that the globe is involved in right now, the entire planet

Earth seems to be involved in this in some form or another, the Bible does have something to say about pandemics and quarantine, and if you could start with pandemics.

Well, I think that since we're talking about the conference, this is, you know, God and government and eschatology,

Bible prophecy, there are a lot of people who will see this virus that's encircling the globe and say, this is a sign of the end times.

And as a result of that, there'll be a lot of people who think, well, this Jesus is coming back soon, the rapture is church, the

Antichrist is going to rise, the temple's going to be rebuilt, animal sacrifices, the

Antichrist is going to come in and make a deal with the covenant with the Jews and break the Jews, all hell's going to break loose, it's going to be the great tribulation.

In fact, every generation that has come about has made the same types of predictions based upon what you find in Matthew's gospel,

Matthew chapter 24, and Luke, Luke 21. Luke's gospel actually mentions plagues in chapter 21, verse 11, and there will be great earthquakes and in various places plagues and famines, and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven, and people will say, see, this is a sign of the end times.

There are a couple of problems with that argument, the first one being there have been plagues throughout our history, relatively modern history, just a little more than a hundred years ago.

We had a flu epidemic that killed millions of people, literally millions of people, and I was talking to my wife just yesterday, and her mother, who's 97 years old, her older sister, who just died a few years ago at 97, remembered the flu epidemic that killed, you know, scores, well, scores, hundreds of thousands of people, and many believe it came about because of World War I and soldiers coming home, and it's interesting that you find linked with these signs, verse 9 of Luke chapter 21, it says, and when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, and then you see in verse 11 about plagues and famines, those things typically go together.

You have wars, famines that take place, and then you have plagues that people can't take care of themselves as a result, and it ends up, someone goes away and gets some disease and brings it back, but Jesus isn't talking about the end of the world, he's talking about the end of old covenant

Israel related to the destruction of Jerusalem that took place in AD 70.

That these signs that Jesus is describing here relate to that particular event in history.

If you don't link it to that, then it seems like every generation, prophets who keep coming up and saying this is the generation that Jesus is going to return, well, they've been saying that for 2 ,000 years because there have been plagues, wars and rumors of wars and famines for 2 ,000 years, but Jesus is very clear in Luke chapter 21, verse 32, where he says, truly

I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Jesus isn't describing some event in the distant future, he was describing something that was going to take place before that particular generation passed away.

And so, again, we need to put everything in perspective with all of this.

We're not living in the last days, Matthew 24, the

Olivet Discourse is not describing what's going to take place at the end of history, it was describing what was going to take place before that particular generation passed away.

And those events, in fact, did take place.

In fact, if you go to, and I've done a study of this, this is what I'm going to be talking about, I won't go into all the details of it, but the number of plagues or pestilence that took place between A .D.

30 and A .D. 70 is well documented by historians like Josephus, who was an eyewitness to the destruction of Jerusalem, Suetonius and Tacitus and others, they mentioned these plagues.

It's so horrifying that some of these were, that bodies were stacked in the streets as a result of these plagues.

And then if you look at Acts chapter 11, the famines, it says verse 27 of Acts 11, now at this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch and one of them named

Agabus stood up and began to indicate by the spirit that there would certainly be a great famine all over the inhabited world, that is throughout the

Roman Empire. And this took place in the reign of Claudius. Now most translations says a great famine all over the world, but there's a unique Greek word there, it's oikoumene, and it's the same word that's used in Luke chapter 2, verse 1, where a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that the whole world be taxed.

Well, Rome couldn't tax the whole wide world, it could only tax the Roman Empire. The same word oikoumene is used there.

So this famine was over the Roman Empire. And what generally happens when there are wars, and there were wars and rumors of wars in the period from A .D.

30 and A .D. 70, there was a famine here and there was a pestilence of war, plagues that took place that were devastating to many that lived within the confines of the

Roman Empire. And as far as quarantine, there are a lot of people who are resting more peacefully because they know others are being quarantined, or have been diagnosed as having the coronavirus.

But then again, there are many others who may be terrified that they will be one of those who will soon be quarantined.

But tell us about what the Bible has to say about that. Well, we have to remember that, you know, it's only been rather recently that we understood how the diseases were transferred.

You know, bacteria, we didn't have any access to microscopes so we could see what a virus looked like, what bacteria looked like.

We just didn't have any concept of the cell. And scientists, until someone like Paul Ehrlich came along, not the nutball population explosion

Paul Ehrlich, but the chemist Paul Ehrlich, was able to use his microscope and to dye various parts of the cell so the people looking at those cells could distinguish them from other things, and they could see them moving and seeing what they were doing under a microscope.

That's relatively recent. So in biblical times, they didn't know.

It was, you know, kind of a time of having to adjust your assessment here, but they kind of figured out that the best way to do this was to keep people from getting involved with other people.

They knew it was kind of transferred to other people by contact, even though they didn't know the science of it all.

And there's an example in the Bible where the priests were to go into homes that had what we say today is leprosy.

It really isn't leprosy as we understand leprosy, but it was some sort of growth that was on a house and so forth, and the priests would come in and they would evaluate that house, and whatever that thing was on the house that was causing disease, that house was literally torn down.

And that same example is used in the New Testament for the temple.

Jesus goes in and he assesses the temple twice, and he finds it unfit in terms of what the

Old Testament prescription was for a house that was leprous, and Jesus leaves the temple and says it's going to be destroyed.

So there's a kind of a one -to -one relationship to what that was all about. So Israel knew something about the diseases, and they would quarantine a house because it was infectious in some way, without them really understanding the way diseases were transferred.

So obviously if this was something that was commanded in scriptures of the

Israelites, you would not have a problem with this occurring today. Well, again, these were priests, but it's obvious that there was some sort of communicable disease that was stopped in this way.

In the New Testament, you know, you find anybody who was leprous, people kept away from them because they understood that they were infectious to a certain degree.

So you can read about this in Leviticus 13 through 14. It's pretty specific and rather lengthy about all this.

And what's really fascinating about all this is Martin Luther. Martin Luther wrote an article.

Well, it wasn't an article. It was actually a letter, a very, very long letter. And it was written to the

Reverend Dr. Johann Hess, who was a pastor in Germany.

And the title of it is, Whether One May Flee from a

Deadly Plague. Which, it's fascinating reading because he lays out all these principles about what should

Christians do. And it breaks it down into what the individual Christian should do, it says what the pastor should do, and what the civil magistrate should do.

And one of the things it talks about the civil magistrate, remember in the Bible, the civil magistrate is called a minister of God, he's a deacon of God.

And the civil magistrate has a responsibility to protect the people as a minister of God. And the civil magistrates cannot leave their posts.

They are to stay behind and do whatever is possible in order to serve the people.

And that might be quarantining the people. And Martin Luther also goes on and says something very similar about pastors.

That pastors also have the responsibility to stay with their flock. Unlike the hireling, the hireling who's just hired,

I'm not only doing this for money, but the true shepherd of the flock stays with his flock, and shepherds and ministers to that flock during these particular periods of time.

And you have to remember, if you go back during this era, I mean, you had a plague that would kill 50 to 100 million people throughout

Europe. And so whole families were killed. I've got a little quote here from, this was the

London plague that people aren't aware about.

I don't know if I can find this real quick here. While you're looking, I'll repeat our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Gary DeMar.

Our email address is chrizarnsen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Okay, I'm sorry,

Gary, go ahead. Okay, let's do it again. It's time to find it. This is the great plague of London that laid siege to the city actually several times during the 16th and 17th centuries.

The most famous ones were between 1665 and 1666. At its peak in September 1665, some 8 ,000 people were dying each week.

Now this is from Thomas Vincent, who was a Reformed pastor, Calvinist, and here's what he said.

Never did so many husbands and wives die together. Never did so many parents carry their children with them to the grave.

And this is in a book that he wrote, God's Terrible Voice in the City of Plague and Fire.

That book is available today, and you can you can read about it. But he ministered during this period of time, but think about that.

He lost seven, seven in his household died as a result of this.

And so putting all this in perspective, when people are going to the stores today, and their concern is toilet paper, their concern is, you know, will they have enough snacks to eat?

You know, in this particular case, in the 17th century, the concern was, will

I lose my wife? Will I lose my husband? Will I lose my children? So again, we need to keep all of this in perspective when we start talking about the severity of what's taking place.

And we are in a position today to, you know, to curtail this, to stop it, to build a fire lane, if you will.

Fire lane, when there's a fire that's going on, what ends up happening is the firemen actually will cut down trees and leave a space between the one aspect of the forest and the other aspect, so the fire can't jump that lane.

And that's what's happening today. You know, foreign flights, people are being evaluated there.

People, you know, cutting off flights from the virus, where the virus is most prevalent,

Iran and China and so forth. I think these are very appropriate things to do.

Again, I just want to, you know, bring out the warning here that this should not turn into something permanent, and we shouldn't just go to the government and say, fix this so this never happens again.

There are just some things that governments cannot fix. There are some things that governments cannot predict.

And this was something that was just never predicted. Okay, I'm going to ask you a question.

Why don't you just go ahead and say what you're going to say, and I'll hold off on the question from the listener. Okay, this is from Martin Luther.

Let's see. Now remember, this is from the 16th century. He says,

I shall ask God mercifully to protect us. Then I shall fumigate, help purify the air, administer medicine, and take it.

I shall avoid places and persons where my presence is not needed in order not to become contaminated and thus perchance inflict and pollute others, and so cause their death as a result of my negligence.

If God should wish to take me, he will surely find me and I have done what he has expected of me, and so I am not responsible for either my own death or the death of others.

If my neighbor needs me, however, I shall not avoid place or person, but will go freely as stated above.

See this as such a God -fearing faith, because it is neither brash nor foolhardy, and does not tempt

God. I mean, that is, I have to say, that's one of the most astute understandings of what we as Christians, you know, should be doing when something like this takes place.

And again, this is before anyone understood how diseases were in fact transmitted, but Martin Luther certainly understood the implications of what we as Christians, you know, should be doing.

Okay, I'm going to ask an anonymous listener's question, and you can answer it when we come back from our first break.

Our anonymous listener says, must we not be very careful not to unfairly judge others who disagree with what we are doing in regards to whether or not we gather for worship on Sunday morning or even organize and attend a conference like you are having?

There are some who would even say what you folks are doing in having this conference is irresponsible because you may be contaminating others or becoming contaminated yourself.

And then there are others who would mock any kind of restriction as something produced from cowardice that should not be a part of a

Christian's character. And I'm speaking of things that are lawfully conducted, not things that are restricted by the government.

Okay, well, we'll have you comment on that after we return from our first break here.

If anybody likes to join us on the air with their own question, chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

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Friday and Saturday, March 20th and 21st. That's Hope Reform Baptist Church, Corham, Long Island, New York, which is having a conference featuring our guest today on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Gary DeMar, President of American Vision and author of Last Day's Madness, among other things.

The theme of the conference is God, the government, and the last days of the last days. And in addition to the

Friday and Saturday conference, Gary will be preaching at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York on Sunday morning.

Just out of curiosity, Gary, do you know the topic yet on the Sunday morning service? Second Timothy, Chapter 3.

Great. Second Timothy, Chapter 3 will be the theme of the Sunday morning service, so we hope that you can attend that as well.

And for more details, go to reformedrooke .com, reformedrooke .com,

and then click DeMar Conference at the top of the page right next to where it says

Home. You could click on that. You could also call Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island at 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711.

Before the break, we had an anonymous listener basically asking or saying that should we not be very careful on how we judge others in their ways of responding to this, as long as they're not breaking the law.

As far as even this conference is concerned, some might think that it's irresponsible that we are going to be gathering at this conference to be edified by you, and obviously through the

Scriptures and the Holy Spirit. But there are others who are saying this coronavirus hasn't reached such a devastating level that it would require paralyzing us in our homes 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

So how do you respond to that as far as how we judge others in regard to how they respond to this crisis?

I think the anonymous caller asked some good questions.

I was on the phone this morning with one of the individuals who I've been communicating with about all this.

So we're keeping... This is kind of a day -to -day thing, because everything keeps changing in terms of what's being recommended by the

CDC and others. So it may come that we cancel it because of any number of factors.

Today is Monday, so it's possible that it doesn't take place.

It just depends on what's taking place. Secondly, kind of what Martin Luther is describing here is that I think pastors and teachers who have something to say to put a perspective on what's going on...

I mean, this isn't the bubonic plague, by the way, and it's unfortunate that this thing has been hyped and politicized to such an extent that even the flu in our own day and age kills tens of thousands of people every year.

So I'm going there to deal with some of the issues I've already talked about, what the governmental responsibility is to reassure people that we're not living in the last days and not be struck with fear and so forth.

So it's a day -to -day assessment. It may change, and so I would just tell people, hey, if you're considering coming to the conference, that's going to be something you're going to have to make a decision on, and that's something

I'm going to have to make a decision on, and that's something that the Church is going to have to make a decision on, and that means to go to the site periodically to check out.

I know Ligonier, they have a conference every year, and they've canceled their...

I don't know if it's postponed or canceled, but certainly the date, I think it was supposed to be this weekend, they have canceled it, and I know

James White had a couple of things going on. I think they have been canceled. So we're just going to have to wait and see what transpires for the rest of the week as to what we're going to do.

But specifically to the anonymous solicitor's question, don't we have to be careful on how we judge how others are responding?

I'm not saying that we don't use discernment and don't judge the actions of others, but don't we need to be very careful not to vilify people who don't act like we act?

Yeah, it depends. I mean, hey, look, if somebody's wheezing and coughing and nose is running and so forth, and says, you know,

God is going to protect me, and da -da -da -da, I think that's something that should be dealt with.

So I think it just depends. People say

God's sovereign, God's in control of this virus, and I agree, but at the same time, we're responsible.

So, you know, it depends on what each circumstance is. I mean, to me,

I go out, I mean, I went to pick up my glasses, I got a new pair of glasses today. I went and got my glasses.

I got gas yesterday. So, you know, I'm not, you know, it's just going to depend,

I think, on what circumstances there are, what condition they're in. I'm not sick. I guess I could be, and in fact, if I came down with anything that resembled this,

I would cancel it. And I think if the elders thought in their wisdom that it would be best not to put this on,

I would go along with it. I think it just depends on what is being assessed and the conditions of what are taking place before a judgment can be, you know, can be made.

Yes, and that's why the specific phrase used, don't we need to be very careful.

I'm not saying, as I added to that, I'm not saying that we shouldn't use discernment and even judge the actions of others if they are wrong and dangerous or haphazard or reckless.

But at the same time, for instance, not every church has closed its public worship services.

The church where I'm a member did this past Sunday. They had a live stream service where the pastor was alone in the church building, perhaps with his family, and preached a live stream service, but we did not have public attendance.

But there are other churches right here in the same community who didn't do that. Our church is a very large building and they said, you know, if you're in the high -risk group,

I'm in the high -risk group. I'm 70 years old and my wife is older than I am. Wow, I had no idea that you were 70.

You don't look anywhere near that. I'm 70, so I'm in the high -risk group.

And what our church did is, Patrick sent out a great, great letter.

It said, you know, if you're in a high -risk group or you feel uncomfortable in coming, if you have any indication that you might be infectious for anything, best to stay home.

They live -streamed the service. They said to spread out when you're in the church, you know, far apart from one another and all that, and the various pleasantries about shaking hands and so forth and so on.

And so people were given an option, but at the same time, there was a worship service. I think it's a bit overkill when some people say, we should, our churches, we should keep them open and so forth and so on, no matter what happens.

I just think that's foolish. And I think it's, you know, and by the way, there's really nothing in the

Bible that says that we should congregate on a, and I know people probably think

I'm terrible and I'm a heretic by saying this, but the Fourth Commandment really doesn't say anything about meeting for worship on the

Lord's Day, or on the Sabbath. And people miss worship for any variety of reasons.

Well, it forbids the neglecting of assembling with the

Brethren. Don't forsake the assembling with the Brethren. Right, but that doesn't necessarily have to be, I don't think that's in particular dealing just with Sunday morning.

I just think some, you know, there's some people who are lonely and the Lone Ranger Christians, you know, they don't want to have anything to do with Christians.

They're all hypocrites and stuff. I have my own little thing over here. And in times of emergency, and I'm not saying this is a full emergency as some things are.

Now, if the state comes in and says, you must close down, then that's a different issue.

That's where you've got to, you know, we're going to have to make a decision about something like that. If the government says you cannot meet on Sunday for worship, that is a completely different issue.

So, you know, we really haven't experienced this in our culture before.

It'd be interesting to go back to see what happened when we had the flu epidemic back in,

I think it was 1916 -1917, and find out what churches did, you know, back then.

So, this is all new, and I think your anonymous listener is correct that there has to be some discernment here, and again, how we fall out on how we apply that discernment is going to be something that, you know, that people differ on.

We have a question from Johnny in Queens, New York, and Johnny says, plagues and pestilence have affected millions of people throughout history, and the biblical accounts in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 have already taken place in AD 70 in light of these sovereign providential dealings with man.

What are we to make of our current pandemic? How should the church respond to this relatively slight affliction in light of the hysteria?

Now, obviously, you've already answered a lot of that, but perhaps you could even start with, do you think that there is a lot of hysteria going on in reaction to the actual facts of the coronavirus?

I think there is, and I think a lot of it is motivated politically, and I know some people will disagree with me on that.

If you go back to the Obama administration, and I forget what particular epidemic that was going on then, and there were lots and lots of deaths, and President Obama really didn't respond.

I mean, you got President Trump, he's up there almost every day. He was up there again today. I didn't listen to all of it.

I did hear some of the press conference. That did not take place. That did not take place under President Obama, and we know that the

Democrats have been trying to use anything they can possibly do, the media too, to try to get Trump out of office, and they're trying to use this, and I think they have overblown it.

Now, the difference of this is, this particular virus, as far as I understand, lasts longer on surfaces, lasts longer in the air, and I think the third part of it is, is that the person can be a carrier of it before any symptoms show up, and so those are some of the differences, and so I think, like,

I've got two married sons, I have nine grandchildren, and five of my grandchildren, they're very, very close, and I have one grandson who's sick, but I don't think he has the coronavirus.

I don't know what it is he has, but one of his brothers called me today and said that he wanted to know if I had any biographies that I could bring over for him to read, because they're out of school for at least two weeks, and so I went to my library and pulled out some biographies, and I thought he's in second grade, and I took them over, but I just met him and gave them to him.

I didn't go in the house. So I'm taking precautions, but again,

I do think this is overblown, but it's hard to say that today, because people immediately jump on you and say, you're not taking this seriously, and you're protecting

Donald Trump, and so forth, but it was the same thing when President Obama was presiding over what was going on then.

I didn't say we should go out there and do more stuff, because we've had these types of things over and over again.

This is a virus that has the number 19 attached to it. This type of virus goes back decades.

In fact, if you look on the back of a bottle of Lysol, you'll see, you know, coronavirus on it, but this is a different strain, and it's doing different things, so I think we have to be more cautious with it, because we don't know the full ramifications of it, and rather be safe than sorry, even though this is going to have a devastating effect economically, and that's going to affect all kinds of people, for people who are never going to get this virus, and economics is an important point.

Now you've got people saying we need to start giving money to people, so again,

I think there's a bit of hysteria, but if someone in your family dies of this, for them there's no hysteria.

It was a devastating thing for them, and so we've got to understand that side of things as well. Well, Gary, it has been a joy interviewing you, even on a subject like this, and I'm looking forward to seeing you this

Friday, Saturday, and Sunday at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, and if any of you who are listening would love to attend this event and join me there, the

God, the Government, and the Last Days conference, Thursday, I'm sorry,

Friday and Saturday, March 20th and 21st at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York.

Go to reformedrooke .com, reformedrooke .com, and then click

Damar Conference at the top of the page, and you can also call 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711, and remember,

Gary will also be preaching, God willing, Sunday morning after the conference at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, and if you want more information about American Vision, the ministry where Gary Damar serves as president, go to americanvision .org,

americanvision .org. Chris, I have an article up there today on this very topic if anyone's interested at americanvision .org.

Perfect. Well, thank you so much, and I'm looking forward to seeing you this Friday. All right.

Thank you. All right. God bless you. And don't go away, folks, because Pastor Christopher McDowell, one of two pastors at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, he is going to be our guest for the second hour, and he is going to be addressing the

Christian and fear, a very appropriate segue to our first hour because fear is obviously a very key factor in what is going on now and what always has gone on in the history of the world when there have been viruses, pandemics, and plagues, and so on that have taken the lives of many in varying degrees.

But if you would like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Christopher McDowell of Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, send an email at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And remember, folks, this is our longer -than -normal break, so please be patient with us.

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Post Tenebrous Lux. We'll see you next week with a new edition of Post Tenebrous Lux. Spirit and Truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a God -centered focus.

Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

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That's liyfc .org. Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords Transcription by CastingWords Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

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Dan Botafugo's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. This is

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

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Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends, Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

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Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. And don't forget, folks, you can call

CVBBS .com Monday through Friday from 10 a .m. to 4 30 p .m. Eastern Time at their toll -free number 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656 -0231.

And before I return to our interview today, this will be our second interview of the day with Pastor Christopher McDowell, one of two pastors at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, which is also the venue for the upcoming

Bible conference later this week featuring Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, who was our first guest today,

God, the Government, and the Last Days. That will be Friday and Saturday, March 20th and 21st. And Gary DeMar will also be speaking,

God willing, Sunday morning at the morning worship service of Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island.

But before we go into this second interview with Chris McDowell, we just have a couple of announcements to make.

First of all, if you love this show, you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, you listen to it regularly, you download the free

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We ask of you also, if you would like to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line. As long as whatever it is that you want to promote is compatible with what we believe here, you don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something that is at least compatible with what we believe, then we would love to help you launch an ad campaign very quickly.

So send us an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line. Also, if you are not a member of a local bible -believing church and you're not even prayerfully looking for one, you're living in rebellion against God, I can help you,

God willing, through the lists of biblically faithful churches that I have all over the world.

Almost every single week I help people find churches near where they live everywhere in the world, and also

I help people find churches where they're vacationing and so on, or if they have family, friends, and loved ones in a certain area of the world where those folks don't have a biblically faithful church,

I have helped people find churches for those folks. So please send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, and put I Need a Church in the subject line. Next, God willing, unless something unforeseen happens,

I'm having the next Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon on Friday, May 29th, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania at the Bongiorno Conference Center.

This is the first time we've ever had the Pastor's Luncheon at the Bongiorno Conference Center, beautiful facilities here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and also for the very first time

I am having as my featured speaker Dr. Conrad Mbewe, who is pastor of Kabwatha Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and he's also a lecturer at African Christian University along with Vodie Baucom.

If you would like to join me at my free Pastor's Luncheon, as long as you are a man in ministry leadership, whether you are a pastor, an elder, a deacon, or a parachurch ministry leader, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line, and I will register you immediately.

It's free of charge, and not only will you hear a no doubt extraordinary message from Dr.

Conrad Mbewe, free of charge, but you'll also eat for free, and I heard that the

Bongiorno Conference Center has absolutely extraordinary food there, so you'll have a delicious meal for free, and you'll also be getting,

God willing, many, many, many free books that will be donated by major Christian publishers all of the

United States and the United Kingdom. Each pastor, or each man in attendance, will leave with a very heavy sack of books, so all this is free of charge.

It was the brainchild of my precious late wife, Julie, in the 1990s. We conducted these

Pastor's Luncheons every year on Long Island, New York, prior to her entering into glory with Christ for eternity, and then when

I relocated to Pennsylvania, I relaunched them in her honor and memory and in tribute to her, so I hope you can join us

Friday, May 29th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at the Bongiorno Conference Center, Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Send me that email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, and put

Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. And now, I am honored to welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio a friend of mine who was recently installed as the second pastor of Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, which, as we have been repeating throughout today's program, is the venue for the conference this

Friday and Saturday featuring Gary DeMar. Pastor Christopher McDowell, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to the program to discuss a very important topic, the

Christian and fear. Welcome back, Pastor Chris. Oh, hey, thanks,

Chris. I thought I was just calling in to register for the Pastor's Luncheon. I'm a little confused, but I guess since I'm here,

I'll... Well, we'll kill two birds with one stone, and I'll... Very good.

We've got Pastor Jensen and Pastor Eugenio. Our brother Anthony was actually installed as our third elder just recently.

Oh, wow. Praise God. That is definitely news to me. I had not heard that yet, and I'm thrilled to hear that.

Anthony is such a precious brother in Christ, such a knowledgeable and capable and gifted and godly brother in Christ.

So you indeed are blessed to have him as your third elder. I thank

God for New York Apologetics, the parachurch organization that Anthony Eugenio founded and operates, which also happens to be a regular financial supporter of Iron Trump and Zion Radio, as is

Hope Reform Baptist Church of Quorum. I thank God for both of your ministries, because this show certainly would not exist without your financial help.

Oh, we're grateful to your ministries. It's a blessing to be able to tune into these interviews and hear all these different men and all these different topics discussed.

So it's a blessing. Well, why don't you give a brief description to our listeners of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Quorum, Long Island, New York?

Sure. Hope Reform Baptist Church is... We're located in Quorum, Long Island. That's in Suffolk County.

We were established in 1996 as a church plant from Grace Reform Baptist in Merrick.

We're a 1689 London Baptist concession church, so that's our statement of faith.

That's what we hold to. That's our doctrinal statement. And just recently, about a year and a half ago, we finally got our own building.

We were using rented facilities for over 20 years and finally moved and blessed us with giving us some roots.

So it's a church that's been... Since the time I've been here, it's just been a blessing to our family.

We've seen it grow in numbers and unity and love and faith. So I highly recommend it.

It's a blessing. And if anybody would like to find out more information about Hope Reform Baptist Church of Quorum, Long Island, New York, go to hopereformedli .net.

Hopereformedli .net. That's this is a very perfect sequel, as I mentioned before, to the first hour with Gary DeMar when we were talking about the

Bible, pandemics, and quarantine. And this topic for our second hour is the

Christian and fear. There is a difference between, as you know, people who are lackadaisical, unconcerned, perhaps just lazy, or it could be a host of reasons why people either delay action or do not participate in any kind of meaningful response to a serious trial either in their own lives or in the community surrounding them.

Or you have people who are enslaved by fear, which being enslaved by fear can lead people to all kinds of irresponsible activities and even sinful ones and illegal ones.

But if you could, what is the role of fear in a

Christian's life, if any? The role of fear is usually a besetting sin, unfortunately.

I mean, there are some people who would say that there are legitimate fears, that there are good fears. I think

I would like walking into a busy highway. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, getting too close to the edge of the cliff, you know, or getting into a fight with your wife.

I mean, those are healthy fears. No, I think, you know,

Proverbs says that the prudent sees danger and he hides himself, while the simple go on and suffer for it.

So I think there's a recognition of danger, and that's part of wisdom.

But when we see fear in Scripture, aside from the fear of the

Lord, a reverent love and acknowledgement of His sovereignty,

His power, His grace, His mercy, for the most part, it's something that, you know, the other kind of fear, all other kinds of fear would be those which should be avoided.

You know, we see fear as a result of fear of punishment.

Our first indication of fear was in the garden with Adam, and he had sinned, he had defied

God, he had taken the fruit, and then he hid himself. He was afraid. He knew of the punishment that he was owed.

He knew that the penalty was death, and so he hid and feared himself. So we see that fear is a response of recognizing judgment and just being afraid of it.

The Proverbs tells us that, you know, the wicked flees when no one pursues, but the righteous are as bold as a lion.

On the other hand, I think for, in terms of the believer, fear is a response of lack of faith.

We see that in the Gospels with Jesus confronting

His own disciples, you know, oh ye of little faith, why were you afraid? And they were recognizing danger, but they weren't putting their trust in the sovereign

God. They weren't putting their trust in Christ in that moment. And so I think those are the two,

I mean, there's fears over any number of areas of life that would cause us to be afraid.

But it's either, you know, I think ultimately it's a result of a fear of the punishment to come, or it's fear because it's a lack of faith in God to maintain us, to protect us, to keep us firmly in His hand, come what may.

Now, would you say there's a difference between intense concern and fear? For instance, there are a lot of people right now who are much more likely, because of the coronavirus and the way that the local and federal governments are responding to this, there is much more likely going to be a financial calamity in the lives of many in our nation and across the world than there will be in regard to their own health being affected by this virus.

And these are serious concerns. These are serious things that loom over the heads of many.

I mean, there might be some who would look at someone who is cool, calm, and collected, and not burdened by fear over something like this.

But at the same time, people might think that such a person is just being lackadaisical and not being prepared and so on.

But tell us about that. Is there a difference between intense concern and fear? I sometimes wonder if we don't try to mask our fear and our worry and our anxiety with, we just say, well, this is just concern.

You know, so it's wise, I guess, in some respects to be concerned, again, to recognize danger, to recognize trouble.

And it's a matter of the response. And I would think we have to be careful with how we're defining it, and not just try to put a mask over it and say, no,

I'm not afraid. I'm not worried. I'm just concerned. But is your concern moving you to action?

Or most likely, it is moving you to action or inaction, one or the other.

I say if you're moved to inaction, then you're paralyzed with fear. And you're just saying it's concern.

If it moves you to action, well, that action can be a godly response, a biblical response, or it can demonstrate itself as truly fear, because, you know, fear will cause us to have sinful responses.

Fear is...we're not trusting God, and so God who's sovereign,

God who's in control, we're trying to take control, and we're trying to manipulate situations and circumstances so that we get the desired outcome.

And we need to be careful that we're not undermining biblical principles when we do that.

I think when we see what's going on right now, in the midst of the, you know, the coronavirus, and yeah, there's the health issues on the one hand, and then there's the economic issues on the other hand.

You know, I'm seeing cars around the bank at the ATM, and they're trying to get cash out because they're not sure what, you know, if we're going to lose electric and, you know, credit cards and all those things.

And it might be wise to have cash on hand and that, but if we're, you know, fighting with our neighbors over the last roll of toilet paper in the grocery store, or the last loaf of bread, you know, we're allowing fear to control us.

So I think it's one of those things where, if the Christian truly has their faith in Christ, and their faith in the sovereignty of God, they're going to take necessary measures to look out for the needs of themselves, their families, and hopefully they'll be looking outward to their church bodies, to their neighborhoods, their community, because it's a powerful testimony to show a lack of fear.

When everyone else is afraid, the one who keeps their head, well, why are you keeping your head? Are you just a fool who's just going to, you know, get swept away with whatever disaster comes?

Or do you have something that they don't? And I think this fear and the panic is an opportunity for us to share the

Gospel of Jesus Christ, to remind people that He's sovereign. And as Christians, this is our time to shine and to show the love of Christ and to minister to those in need, and not be plagued with fear, not responding in fear, but to share the hope that we have within.

So, yes, I remember years ago hearing a very powerful Reformed Baptist preacher,

Amrash Simarath, in Trinidad. He used a phrase that I thought was comical, but I believe it's an accurate phrase.

He called it the Que Sera Sera of Hyper -Calvinism. Those people who, their unbalanced, imbalanced view of the sovereignty of God would lead them to inaction or complacency.

And that is something we want to avoid, obviously, but at the same time, we can't be crippled by fear.

And when we return from our final break here, if you could answer this question, is fear, and again, we're not talking about the fear of God, which is actually commanded in us, it's the beginning of wisdom.

And the fear that God embeds within us that would lead us to self -preservation, we're not going to, as we already said, run into a busy highway, we're not going to dance on the edge of a cliff, we're not going to get up on our roof during a lightning storm and swing a metal rod over our heads.

But other than those rightful fears, is fear always sin?

I mean, is there a fear, for instance, even if it's not about yourself, it's about the health and well -being of your children or, in this case, with the coronavirus, it would be more likely the fear over the health and well -being of your parents and grandparents, if they are still with us, those who are elderly or sick and more susceptible to something like the coronavirus.

But if you could answer that when we return from our final break, and if anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, don't go away, but we'll be right back with Pastor Christopher McDowell of Hope Reform Baptist Church of Cora, Long Island, right after these messages from our sponsors.

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We are now back with our second guest today, Pastor Christopher McDowell, one of three pastors now, as I just learned, because of Anthony Eugenio being added to the elder board there.

And most of us Reformed Baptists believe that elder and pastor are the same office, because we believe that's what the

Bible teaches. And so Pastor Chris, as I said, is one of three pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York.

He is speaking on the Christian and fear. And if you'd like to join us, send in an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Give us your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

USA and only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter, and as I asked you before the break, is fear always as a result of sin or even sin itself?

I would, reflecting on it, I would say probably not. I mean, fear is an emotion, and so it's, you know, sometimes our emotions, our feelings, they can be deceptive.

They can lie to us. We can feel a certain way, but it's not an indicator of the facts of the situation or the reality.

So we need to filter it through the lens of the Word, the standard of God's revealed

Word to know whether this fear is sinful or not.

Like, we discussed, you know, healthy fears in terms of, you know, not going into the busy highway, not going too close to the edge of the cliff.

You know, we should have a healthy fear of God, a reverent fear of God. We should have a fear of sin, of the consequences of sin.

So in that respect, that fear should keep us from doing something that's sinful.

The question is, really, why do we have that fear? And realizing that in Scripture, we have one of the most common commands in Scripture is to do not fear, do not be afraid, because we're so likely, we're so liable to do that, to have fear, to be afraid.

And if we're fearful because we have done something worthy of punishment, of consequences, you know, that fear should lead us to repentance, seeking the mercy of God.

If we're fearful merely for our own self -preservation, not, you know, not seeing danger, you know, and being prudent and exercising caution, but if we're trying to preserve our life at all costs, you know,

Jesus says whoever seeks to save his life will lose it. Revelation tells us that the cowardly have their place in the lake of fire.

So it's really a question of what is motivating that fear and how are we responding to it to really be able to determine if it's sinful or not.

So if a believer is really struggling with fear or worry or anxiety, and if they, you know, sometimes we're so inside our own heads we can't see it, they should go to a mature brother or sister in the

Lord and explain what's on their mind and see if their brother and sister can come along with the word and point out if they're fearing because they're not putting faith in God.

You mentioned before the break, you know, in times like this with sickness, you know, plague, pestilence, you know, if we're fearing for our children or our grandparents,

I would say that kind of fear would be sinful because we have to realize that God is the author of life, our lives are in his hands, and as Abraham said, you know, won't the judge of all the earth do what is right?

And that was an acknowledgment that he would indeed do what is right. And so we can rest in the sovereignty of God.

I think sometimes today we're so, at least in, you know, in America here in the

West, we're very comfortable where we're used to all the niceties of life and a more leisurely life, and we don't feel the danger of death.

And so we don't think about raising our kids to go and go to some cannibalistic tribe he held to share the gospel with them.

It's something that we might, you know, hesitate to encourage them because we want what's best for them, what we think is best.

We want them to be healthy, we want them to be safe. And yet I think it was Paul Walsher who said, you know, I want to raise my children to be missionaries who are going to go out and for the glory of Christ be willing to lay down their lives, you know, for the advancement of the kingdom, because that that is what's honoring to God.

If we're just concerned about our own self -preservation, we're sinfully selfish, and it's cowardly.

And yes, the Bible would call that sin. So we have, let's see,

Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who says, is it not proof that fear is not always related to sin in the fact that our

Lord Jesus Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane was sweating drops of blood fearing the wrath of his father that he would receive upon him to propitiate the sins of his people and perhaps even fearing some of the physical torment that would accompany it?

Yeah, and that's what I would say, you know, that's an emotion, and Christ in his humanity, yes, did have a certain amount of trepidation going to the cross and knowing what that was going to mean, and yet how did he respond in that?

So again, by the standard of the Word, if you have a fear, if you see that there's real danger, if you see that there's real suffering coming along, how are you going to respond?

Are you going to flee? Are you going to be a coward and run from that?

Or are you going to, you know, for Christ, before him, he went forth and he was obedient to his father even unto death.

So as I was already saying, I don't think fear is necessarily always sinful.

There are legitimate reasons why we would be afraid. It's a matter of making sure that the fear is legitimate.

Is it a lack of faith, or is it just understanding, yes, this is really dangerous, and yet how does it move us?

You know, what action are we going to take? Are we going to be paralyzed with fear and not do anything? Are we going to run the other direction and be a deserter?

Or are we going to go forward and, you know, entrust ourselves to God as Christ did?

You know, I think about the first epistle of Peter, and he's talking to believers, he's talking to even his fellow elders, and, you know, they are partakers of tribulation, and things are about to get worse.

And he's telling them, you know, it's been granted to us, you know, not only to believe, but to suffer.

You know, and he also tells them that to cast your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.

So, and the next statement is to be firm, mind you, watchful, you are to serve the devil, prowl around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

You know, resist him, firm your faith, knowing that kind of suffering is being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world.

After you've suffered a little while, the God of all grace has called you to his eternal glory, Christ will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, establish you for dominion forever and ever.

So, I mean, yes, there are going to be times where, you know, we might be anxious, but we're to cast those, you know, anxieties on him, we're to do away with the worry, and we're to be faithful, to be obedient, and entrust ourselves to God's love and care.

Amen. Something you were saying earlier about a misplaced fear that even godly parents may have, not wanting their children to be missionaries or something, because it may put their very lives at risk, reminded me of a phenomenal quote by Jim Elliott, a martyr to the

Alca Indians, the first husband of Elizabeth Elliott. He said, the world cannot hate us, we are too much like its own.

Oh, that God would make us dangerous. I think that that's such a phenomenal quote.

We are to be dangerous in that we are not to fear men more than God, and we are not to candy coat the gospel because of our fear of how people will react or how they will reject us or even physically harm us.

And, of course, there are people who do more than candy coat the gospel. Some people just keep their mouths completely shut.

But a lot of what we are discussing right now has to do with something that you just said moments ago.

It's how we react to this fear that is the most important thing. Do we seek to overcome it by putting our complete trust in God, by not doubting him, by knowing that whatever happens in our lives,

Romans 8, 28, if we are Christians, we have to take hold of the fact that all things work together for the good for those who love

God and are called according to his purpose. But at the same time, and this comes up a lot on this show, don't we have to be very careful when we use truths like what we are saying, even scripture, in an inappropriate way?

We can be self -righteous and glib and indifferent and condescending to people in our midst who are at least temporarily crippled by fear.

They may be weeping in their bed over some terrible thing that's fallen upon them or just that they fear will fall upon them.

Isn't the manner in which we share these truths very often just as important as the truths themselves?

Absolutely. I mean, that's another biblical principle, is that we are to have love.

We should be looking to restore those who are struggling in whatever type of sin that they might be falling into, even worry and fear, and we should do so gently and we should do so humbly, realizing that they could fall upon any of us.

As brothers and sisters in Christ, we're called to bear one another's burdens. So yeah, especially for those of us who hold to the doctrines of grace, it would be a very great shame indeed if we exhibited no grace while sharing truth.

That's our calling, is to speak the truth in love. And so to be glib, to be insensitive, to be unkind, it's almost like a sort of works righteousness.

Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get it together. And of course,

Calvinists never act in an unloving or stupid way. No, never! I can remember a brother who is now in heaven for eternity, but while he was with us, he said something, in my opinion, very foolish to me.

This was back in the mid -90s. My mother was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and I asked for prayer at a prayer meeting at the church where I was a member.

And I asked not only to reassure me that my mother was saved, because she had been making professions of faith during this time of trial, and she made real clear, crystal clear professions of faith that not only gave me great assurance, but also my friend who is now with the

Lord also, Peter Jeffrey, a very well -known Welsh author and pastor.

He providentially was on Long Island visiting from Wales when my mother was dying, and he visited with her for a half hour, and he emerged from her sickbed after he was finished visiting her.

He said in his thick Welsh accent, I don't know what you're afraid of. Your mother's going to heaven. She's born again. But there was this brother that I was speaking of who said something very foolish at this prayer meeting.

He said to me, because I obviously, in addition to everything else, prayed for my mother's healing, and he said, brother, just remember, it would be sin for you to want your mother to be healed if it's

God's will that she not be physically healed. And my response to him was, and how do

I know what God's will is until she either lives or goes home to be with the Lord? But I'd like to give you about a minute now just to summarize what you most want in the hearts and minds of our listeners in regard to the

Christian in fear. Well, I think of 2

Timothy chapter 1, where Paul's talking to Timothy, and he talks about, you know,

God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, self -control. And again, in 1

Peter, he tells us to cast our anxieties on him because he cares for you.

Remember that we are in God's sovereign hands. I think this time,

I know some people are reluctant to talk about the judgment of God, you know, in a pandemic such as this, but I think, you know, we see in Scripture that God does call the nations to account, and he does bring judgment by other nations, by the sword, he brings it by natural disasters, he brings it by all sorts of means.

This is an opportunity to call people to repentance, and it's certainly a time for us to show that we are not afraid, because, you know, to live is

Christ, but to die is gain. You know, whatever happens to us, as I mentioned in Romans 8, we can trust that he's using it for our good.

So we can always have an assurance that we are, we are in God's hands, and he is sovereign over all things, and these things only work to our good.

And we are out of time, we are out of time, brother. I'm sorry to cut you off. No problem. And I want to make sure our listeners have, again, the websites to attend the conference featuring

Gary DeMar, reformedrooke .com, reformedrooke .com.

Click on DeMar Conference at the top of the page. You can also get more information in general about Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York at hopereformedli .net,

hopereformedli .net. I'm sorry, Johnny, in Queens, New York, that we didn't have time to ask your question of Pastor Chris.

Pastor Chris, thank you so much for being an excellent guest. I look forward to your return to the program. Thanks for having me, brother.

God bless. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.