September 18, 2017 Show with Charlie Liebert on “Without 3 Miracles, Darwin’s Dead: Science Proves Atheistic Evolution is Impossible”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 18th day of September 2017.

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And I have some sad news for those of you who don't already know this, but someone who

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I know very well, although I had not yet reached a point where I was a close friend of his, but he had spoke at my church along with his dear friend

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David Wood, and I say my church, the church where I was a member on Long Island before relocating to Pennsylvania, Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York.

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I'm speaking of Nabeel Qureshi. Many of you know that he was battling cancer very valiantly and courageously in a very

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Christ -like state of mind, and well, sadly,

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Nabeel ended his struggle on Saturday.

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He entered into eternity with Christ, which is obviously the good news of that story.

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Whenever a Christian passes from this earth, we know that there is a bitterness to it, especially when someone is as young as Nabeel Qureshi, who was only 34 years old.

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The prime of his life and ministry as a Christian apologist, a former

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Muslim who came to Christ through God in his sovereignty, using the evangelism of his friend

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David Wood. Many of you know David Wood as a Christian apologist who is most well -known for his ministry with Muslims, having debates with Muslims globally.

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Well, one of the reasons that David even got into that ministry was because he had made a friend of Nabeel Qureshi in college when

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Nabeel was still a Muslim, and they used to have friendly conversations, debates, and arguments over theology, and then finally, in God's sovereignty,

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Nabeel finally bowed the knee to Christ and recognized that his Muslim religion was indeed a false religion, and his

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Allah was a false god, and his Muhammad was a false prophet, and he came to adopt and embrace the

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Christ of the Holy Scriptures and the Gospel of the Holy Scriptures, and the Holy Scriptures themselves as God's inerrant, infallible word.

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And Nabeel was suffering more and more, it seemed, as the weeks and months went by, and I saw a very recent plea for prayer that he made from his deathbed.

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It was videotaped, and I think that may have been filmed just the day before he went home to glory.

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I'm not a hundred percent sure, but hopefully, God willing, we'll be having David Wood, his very close friend who

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I just mentioned, who led him to Christ, David Wood, on the program to pay tribute to Nabeel Qureshi.

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I don't know when that will be yet, but I will keep you updated on that. Please pray for the family of Nabeel Qureshi, and even pray for his dear friend, his very close friend,

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David Wood, who was like not only a spiritual brother in Christ, but a blood brother with Nabeel Qureshi.

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They were so close, and I'll be keeping you updated on any further developments in regard to an interview with David Wood on this precious brother,

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Nabeel Qureshi, who is now spending eternity with Jesus Christ, free from pain, sickness, and sorrow, and remorse, and regret, experiencing a joy that our puny finite minds could never even begin to fathom.

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Well, today we have on the program a returning guest. Many of you have heard

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Charlie Liebert on this program, not only as a guest, but also as a co -host from time to time.

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He is the founder of 6daycreation .com. He is the author of a number of books, and we are today going to be discussing his newest book, his latest book,

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Without Three Miracles, Darwin's Dead, Science Proves Atheistic Evolution Is Impossible, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back into the

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Iron Sherpins Iron studio, Charlie Liebert. Thank you, Chris. It's great to be here. And in studio with me as well is my co -host, the

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Rev. Buzz Taylor. Hello, it's good to be here again, and good to be with you again, Charlie. Thank you. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question regarding evolution, creation,

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Darwin, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com,

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and please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. Well, Charlie, this is quite a captivating title that you have come up with for this book,

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Without Three Miracles, Darwin's Dead. In fact, the first thing that popped into my head when

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I read this title is that it would actually be a far greater miracle if Darwin was alive. That's correct.

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It's more a reference to Darwinism than Darwin himself. Right. And if you could, what was the catalyst behind writing this book?

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And there's a lot of Christian material in print that refutes or attempts to refute atheistic evolution.

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That's correct. And even theistic evolution. Yes, that's right. What was missing on the library shelves of Christians all over the world that required this new volume,

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Without Three Miracles, Darwin's Dead? Okay, let me let me go back and kind of how I got there. I was teaching

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Christian businessmen about six years ago, and an issue kept coming up about I get asked a question when

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I'm ready to witness to someone, and I get kind of sidetracked and never get to witness. And that's my first book, Always Be Ready to Give an

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Answer. As I was writing that, one of my Christian mentors, Bob Kelly, said to me, Charlie, now that you've got the strategy to handle the questions and give a testimony every time, how about answering the questions?

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Well, I've had a website for 25 years, so I've got I had 106 questions I had standard answers to, and that became the second book,

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Answers to the Hope That's In You. As I'm finishing that, Bob comes to me again and says, Charlie, you've handled creation evolution in that book, but you really haven't made a good sound argument against it in a simple form that the non -scientific readers can read without having to stumble over the words.

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I said, yeah, you're right, Bob. And that's the result of this book, Without Three Miracles, Darwin's Dead. As I thought about it, and I talked about it with Bob and some of the others,

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I came to the conclusion that there are three impossible steps for Darwin, three things that would have to be miracles.

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The first one is the appearance of something from nothing. That violates the first law of thermodynamics. Ex Nilo. Ex Nilo, something from nothing.

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Okay, that violates the first law, and we get into these in more detail in a minute. The second one is the appearance of life from dead material.

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That's also an impossible. That's called the law of biogenesis, and that was basically started by Pasteur, saying that life comes from life and life of the same kind of life.

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So that's the second miracle. I call that one Frankenstein. The first one I call magic, okay, like the rabbit from the hat magic.

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Third one I call uphill molasses, because the third one is a violation of the second law. The second law simply says the universe was wound up at the beginning and is running down.

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Every process loses heat and eventually goes to a process where it has less energy than it had before.

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If I ever get the money to start my own restaurant, I am going to call it uphill molasses. So what happens in evolution is evolution claims to go uphill against that law in increasing complexity and gaining information through time, which is basically a violation of that second law.

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So we've got three scientific laws violated by atheistic evolution. You can't get past that, okay?

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They require miracles. In fact, if you read the writers that understand that, for example, they say, well, it happened just once, so it's still a law.

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That's nonsense. In science, a law is a law. If a law is a law, you can't negate it.

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I mean, if I go up on the roof and say I don't believe in gravity and jump off, what happens? I'm going to hurt myself. I'd love to see you try.

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I'm going to hurt myself coming down, you know? So that's obvious. So I decided to put it together in a form that's relatively simple.

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I begin to deal first with what is the nature of science. Then I describe evolution as the proponents of evolution describe it, how they describe it.

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I go through and talk about the Big Bang and its origins, and then life from non -life. And then we get into the third part, which is the three impossible miracles.

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I deal with each one separately in that chapter. Then I deal with how do they justify it, and I call this one, and this is based upon Dawkins' book, falling off the improbable cliff.

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Because Dawkins wrote a book about evolution that said climbing Mount Improbable.

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And his premise was that when you look at the possibility of getting to mankind from basically nothing, you have an impossible situation.

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But if you go around the back of the mountain, you'll find a very slow gentle slope that takes you up there. That was his premise. So I've basically destroyed that in falling off the improbable cliff.

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Then I have a chapter written by a guest author called Michael. Michael wrote a chapter called

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The Irrationality of Unbelief, and that deals with the nature of Christianity and the nature of other world religions.

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Then I come to the apologist. What is an atheist to do? What answer do they have to these arguments? And I've got an analysis of that.

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And then I handle in the last chapter something I feel is very important. And I've handled only three here.

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Cultural impacts of evolution. What difference does it make about whether we believe evolution?

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I've handled three different things I've talked about here. Well, since you've covered it all, I guess we're out of time. No, we haven't even gotten started,

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Chris. We haven't even gotten started, okay? The first cultural impact is the downward progress of atheism.

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That is, what happens with atheism as it takes hold in a culture, in a society, and that's a downward progress.

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And that includes some commentary on Romans chapter 1. For some reason, Brevin Buzz Taylor already wants to jump in with a question or comment.

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I just wanted to pipe in here, as you say that, I just want listeners to understand. We're not saying all the rest is true because it has to be true because of the negative cultural impact.

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Right, that's right. It's true, and because evolution is not true, we can expect it to have a negative cultural impact.

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But just so people know, because, you know, when I talk theology with people a lot of times, it's like, well, do you want as if that had anything to do with the truth?

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In other words, just because the leftists and liberals appear to hate

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Donald Trump doesn't mean he's a wonderful president. That's your wording.

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I don't think so,

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Buzz. I don't think so. I think it's a good analogy, though. But anyway, go ahead. Yeah, I deal with the public beliefs about origins, and this is a really interesting study.

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If you look at the situation in the 1950s, when I was in grade school and high school, about half the population believed in evolution, about half believed in creation.

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Now, they've had control of the school for 55 years, more than that, actually, more like 60 years. That is the humanists, the people who teach evolution only.

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And you know what the US population believes? 50 % creation, 50 % evolution. It hasn't changed, which means you can't educate people out of their foundational beliefs, no matter how much you try.

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So, in other words, if you were to ask your average man on the street who wasn't even a Christian, you're saying that 50 % of the population would, if you were able to interview 50 % of them, they would say, or if you were able to interview 100 % of them, and 50 % of those who responded would say they believe in creation?

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No, they don't believe in evolution. They believe in another form of creation. And they're not going to be Christian beliefs, necessarily.

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But they believe in an intelligent design. Intelligent design, some kind of God that's up there somewhere that kind of made the stuff, that the stuff couldn't come up.

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That's interesting. That is a shock to me. It is, really. Okay, you need to get the book, then. You need to read the book. It's in there.

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And, you know, the studies are up to, I think, at the late... Well, you just brought your books for the first time today.

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Yes, I know. The last study, I think I cited, was in 2015, so it's recent.

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And it hasn't changed. I mean, back in the late 80s, I taught the

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North Carolina Governor's School, which is a school for high school, rising high school seniors, done in the summertime on a college campus.

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I taught that for three years. And I was teaching creation, surprisingly, because they wanted to create a force to critical thinking.

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So they said they would have creation as a critical thinking thought. The third year I did it was when I got basically fired.

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And I got fired for a simple reason. I polled the audience and said, how many believe in evolution? And about half the hands went up.

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And how many believe in creation? About the other half went up. And the administrators that were looking were just completely shocked.

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They said, how can half these students believe that? When, you know, we've been telling them for 11 years, about to be the 12th year, that evolution is the way it was done, and creation is impossible.

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And the simple thing is, you just can't educate people out of their foundational beliefs. You can't just tell them. I have students that have come to me, and they're in public school, and say, you know, when evolution is taught, we just give the teacher back what she wants.

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We don't believe it. Wow. Okay, there's one more area here in the impacts that I want to hit on before we get into some questions.

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That is, the evolution is wasting resources. And I've got two examples here. The National Science Foundation has a website that costs millions of dollars a year.

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And those millions of dollars are spent to basically foster evolution on that website. It's very seductive. A student going in there would be, it's very up -to -date and modern and everything.

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So there's millions of dollars wasted on that. The second is what's called go -life studies. The go -life studies are studies in evolution to basically say, where does this worm fit in the evolutionary process?

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Or where does this fern fit in the evolutionary process? There's millions, actually hundreds of millions of dollars a year spent on those things on a model that's not true, which means that that money is put down the drain.

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If we spent that on disease research, we'd probably get a lot more productivity, because we get no value from that at all.

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And these are studies that are clearly designed to basically foster evolution. Okay, so that's the summary of the book,

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Chris. Great. Now, have you exhausted what you wanted to say on the first miracle?

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No, I haven't exhausted it. Okay, well, let's start with the first miracle. Okay, the first miracle's appearance of something from nothing, okay?

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Most Big Bang models will start with several seconds after the beginning. In other words, time or whatever starts, and then suddenly the

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Big Bang appears. Now, it appears from nothing. That's a violation of the first law. And that violation is very clear, because when you ask evolutionists about that, and I've cited several in the book, if you ask them about that, they say, well, we just assume that that stuff just appeared.

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Now, there's two answers to that. It appeared from nothing, which is a miracle, or the universe is eternal and it's gone through what's called the

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Big Bang, the Big Crunch. The problem is the Big Crunch is scientifically impossible based upon the work that they've done themselves.

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So the universe collapsing into itself and then reconstituting itself is not a possibility. So that is a miracle that atheists have to get past.

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And when you confront them with it, they simply say, well, we believe that the stuff just appeared without any explanation.

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That's not science. That's faith. And that's an expression of, to me, non -science or nonsense.

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Basically, they're presuppositions that God does not exist, that the

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Bible isn't true. They are just forcing themselves and others to believe, well, that story cannot be true, so we're just going to develop a theory that we can never prove that just leaves

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God out of the equation and leaves his having created out of nothing out of the picture.

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And, I mean, even some, I'm not saying that they're correct, but even some

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Christians have adopted a Big Bang theory saying that God was behind it. But at least they require an intelligent designer and a creator to start the process.

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Yes, they do. And that's the first miracle. I call it miracle magic. I mean, it has to appear like the rabbit out of the hat, something from nothing.

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Suddenly the material appears for the Big Bang to begin. Of course, the Big Bang precludes an old universe and that's a whole other discussion.

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Or at least some kind of matter. Some kind of matter. Right. Now, if you go back to Genesis, that happens on day number one because when it says

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God created light, if we want to translate that light, that Hebrew word for word today, we'd probably translate it matter, slayers, energy.

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Because God's creating all the stuff of the universe on day one. And then he's organizing days two, three, four, five. And on day five he does a second creative act, which is create living things.

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And on the day six, the third creative act, because God always does things in threes. The third is the creation of Adam.

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Adam in God's image. So there's three creative acts in Genesis chapter one, six days. And the interesting thing about the atheistic evolutionist is that he cannot base his arguments on the origins of life or the origins of matter without using non -scientific theories.

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There's no theory within science that has been proven could possibly happen where matter is created out of nothing.

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No, because... It actually violates the first law. The first law says essentially the universe is a fixed amount of material, matter and energy.

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It changes form. There's a lot of different things in terms of changing form. But it never, never goes out of existence or comes into existence.

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It's fixed. Matter can never, neither be created nor destroyed. That's the famous expression for that.

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That every grade school child knows that. And so it's interesting, those who, these scientists who claim that those who are proponents of intelligent design, those who are creationists, have no place in the scientific debate or to be used in science classes.

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They are to be barred from science classes, or they should be, because they introduce things, in their opinion, that are non -scientific.

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And yet you have atheistic evolutionists continually using ideas that have no scientific basis at all.

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The appearance of the Big Bang is a miracle, because it violates the law.

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Either you say the law isn't true, which we would have a huge uproar in science if we said that, or we have a miracle to take place at the beginning.

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And they avoid that. They avoid that, and they avoid, and they call that, because they begin their models seconds after everything appears.

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Now, have you heard some answers for that from, or should

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I say theories, obviously, for that, from atheistic scientists, such as, to drag up an older name,

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Carl Sagan, and now there's a new host of the Cosmos program, I understand?

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I don't know. Well, anybody else, do they have an answer? Well, the answer they have is, we don't know how it happened, but it happened.

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That's the answer. That's gonna be the answer to all three of my arguments. We don't know how it happened, but it did.

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Okay. And it did because we're here, and it exists. Okay, I'm gonna go, before we go to our first break, and before we go on to these next two miracles,

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I'm gonna go to one of our listeners, Daniel in San Jose, California. Can you ask

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Charlie Liebert to explain the three scientific laws that evolution breaks, and the explanation the evolutionists would give for each one of them?

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Do you consider having an, do you consider having an evolutionary mindset or worldview particularly harmful to one's thinking or to society as a whole?

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If so, would that also be just as harmful to our brothers who believe in theistic evolution?

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Okay, there's a lot of questions there. Yeah, well, let's start with, can you ask Charlie Liebert to explain the three scientific laws that evolution breaks, and the explanation the evolutionists give?

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The first law is the one we just talked about. Okay, the first law says you can't get something from nothing. It says all the material exists, and it's a fixed amount of material.

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And the answer that they'll give is, well, we don't know how it happened, but it happened. Because suddenly the Big Bang appears.

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The second law that I, in the sequence that I do it, which is called Frankenstein, is the law of biogenesis, which is basically began, the work for biogenesis began with the work of Pasteur.

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And it simply says that life comes from life and life of the same kind of life. Okay, that's clearly a law that's there.

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The third, the second is the third law, which is called entropy. And entropy is a law that says quite simply that the universe is running down.

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Every time you do something, you lose a little bit of energy that you can't recover. And that running down is part of the whole process of every process in the universe.

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So the evolutionists answer to that is, well, if you add energy, you'll get order. And the answer is, you only get order when you add energy if you have an intelligently designed machine to do it.

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Let me give you an example. The sun's light on the earth, coming onto the earth, does damage to things.

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But if you put that through an intelligent machine like photosynthesis, it creates what?

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New material. But you need an intelligently designed machine to do it. And I deal with that in the book, okay? That's the third law.

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So energy added itself doesn't answer the question. Although evolution will claim it does, it doesn't. And then the universe is running down.

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And let me just make a comment on that. The universe running down implies that God, or someone, or somehow, some form, caused it to be wound up tight at the very beginning.

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The universe is running down. Einstein, in his writing, when he talked about his theory of relativity, he said that ultimately...

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I'm sorry, not Einstein. Isaac Asimov, in his scientific writings, talked about the universe, if it were eternal, it should die what's called a heat death.

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Which means that everything in the universe would eventually come to a rest of a steady state of everything being evenly dispersed.

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It's not. It's very ordered. So the order implies a beginning, and Einstein confirmed that with his theory of relativity.

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So basically you were just repeating what we began the program with, and the answers, as he is asking for, that the proponents of atheistic evolution would have is,

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I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. Well, that and, you know, it happened once, but we can live with one violation of a law.

25:35

Well, several of the people I read on the issue here said with biogenesis that, oh yeah, well, life appeared suddenly once, kind of by accident, but it violates the law.

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We know that, but it's okay to violate the law one time. That simply doesn't work in science. Some might consider just an irrelevant question, too, though, right?

25:53

Yeah, that's like ignore it all together. Ignore it all together. How it could be irreverent is mind -boggling. In fact, the proponents of an intelligent designer, creator, are the only ones that have an answer for those questions.

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He asked another question, a part of the question which I want to address before we go to the break, and that is what difference does it make?

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It makes a huge amount of difference in a couple areas, okay? First one, and I'm not going to get into this now, but I'll just mention it, okay?

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First one is evolution propagates and is the source of the concept of racism. That's the first problem.

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The second problem is evolution takes away the value of human life, which means simply that if I'm the strongest, if I believe in survival of the fittest, then

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I can kill anybody I'm bigger than. And you even have some atheists actually having at least the logical consistency to admit to that.

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Yes, they do. Yes, they do. Especially if you're talking about groups of people conquering other groups. Yes, the honest ones will admit that.

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Yes. In fact, if you come back to that, even slavery is rooted to some extent in evolution. And they may typically say,

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I find this personally offensive, I find this horrible and evil, which they really have no basis to have those opinions, but they will say that they cannot really say it is wrong for a they cannot mandate to the globe, to everyone living on the globe, that this is wrong, because they realize that that is the logical conclusion of their worldview.

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If you go back in history and look at the beginning of the Age of Exploration, you'll find something written about, which is called a white man's burden.

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And that's basically the concept that all the races are inferior to the white race. And as a result, we've got to kind of help them evolve because they're just evolved from monkeys too close.

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Well, that's an absurdity and that propagates huge issues with a culture where you view some people as inferior.

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That's what the Nazis did. That's what we do with abortion. We do that all over the place. And that's one of the great implications of evolution, the value of life.

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We're going to a break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

28:13

USA. And please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter. Let's say you disagree with your own pastor on this, or you have liberals in your home, perhaps you're married to a liberal and you don't want to publicly identify yourself as being a creationist, whatever the situation is.

28:33

But if you are not asking about a personal and private matter, please at least give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

28:41

So please don't go away. We're going to be right back with Charlie Liebert with Without Three Miracles, Darwin's Dead.

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Thursday, October 26th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. We are now back to our discussion with Charlie Liebert, founder of 6daycreation .com.

37:10

We are discussing his newest book, Without Three Miracles, Darwin's Dead, Science Proves Atheistic Evolution is

37:18

Impossible, and by the way, I forgot to mention to Daniel in San Jose, California, I forgot to mention before the break that you will be receiving a free copy of this book, compliments of Charlie Liebert and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CV, Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com,

37:39

we'll be shipping that out to you. Thank you for providing your mailing address. And the last part of his question was, do you see, let's see, do you consider having an evolutionary mindset or worldview particularly harmful to one's thinking or to society as a whole?

38:01

If so, would that also be just as harmful for our brothers in Christ who believe in atheistic evolution?

38:09

Well, obviously, anything that is in error, and especially things that are in serious error, are going to lead to some kind of a problem, even with a regenerate person.

38:23

And, you know, you could have a snowball effect where even a

38:29

Christian will start to question those things that are taught in scriptures that are meant to be exegeted as literal events that occurred and literal things.

38:42

You could have all kinds of allegorical interpretations imported into the

38:49

Bible where they don't belong. Now, we know that there are proper places for allegorical interpretations, but there are other areas there that there is supposed to be no option for allegory.

38:59

I handle that in book number two, and let me just come back to that theistic evolution issue because that's an important one because a lot of Christians do claim that.

39:11

The problem with the theistic evolution is not a scientific one, okay? We can argue science all day long, and science is always interpreted.

39:17

The problem with theological evolution is theistic evolution. The problem with that is a theological one, and the theological problem is this.

39:28

All forms of theistic evolution require death as part of the process of evolution. That's part of how evolution works.

39:34

Evolution is reproduction, struggle, death. That's how the process functions, and it goes generation after generation after generation.

39:41

If that's true, then death is a driving mechanism and a favorable force in pushing evolution forward.

39:46

That's not what the Bible says about death. Yeah, they claim that the only death that began after the fall was the death of human life.

39:57

That's what they claimed. They will say the plant life and animal life was not to be considered in that equation.

40:04

That's a claim that has no basis in Scripture at all. Right, I know. I'm just saying that's what they say. You know, when

40:10

Scripture talks about life, it talks about the Hebrew word nephesh, and nephesh refers to what we would call soul, and it's in all the higher animals.

40:18

It's not in bugs, and it's not in plants, but it's soul. It's the life that's there that we would call it, you know, if you'd

40:24

Star Trek, you'd say life force, okay? It's the thing that animates the object that gives it life, and when it passes away, it dies.

40:31

Death in humans is no different than death in animals. Death is death. The animal is alive at one moment and ceases to function as a living organism the next.

40:40

I see no differentiation there at all. Well, obviously, spiritually there's a difference. Well, man's spiritually dead to begin with.

40:47

No, what I mean is, okay, when your dog dies, you don't have to worry about it being in hell.

40:53

No, that's right. And you have no place to be convinced that it will certainly be there waiting for you in heaven.

41:00

Yeah, because you didn't know my dog. It returns to the dust of the ground. Which place, heaven or hell?

41:06

It returns to the dust of the ground, but man was uniquely created with a spirit, and that's a third act of creation.

41:12

That's a separate separation. I separate spirit from soul. All right, we have, let's see, we have another question for you.

41:23

Let's see here. We have Joe in Slovenia.

41:29

It's always a blessing to hear from Brother Charlie Liebert. Since we know that evolution is impossible, would it be wise to approach...

41:38

No, I'm sorry. Since we know that evolution is impossible, would it be a wise approach when discussing this with someone who thinks it is possible, or even factual, to ask them to bring irrefutable evidence of changes in kind to our attention?

41:57

Instead of trying to explain to them the reasoning why evolution is impossible, would it be best to ask them to produce bona fide examples of macroevolution, since they won't be able to find any?

42:13

By the way, is it always correct to pronounce it bona fide, or is it bona fide? Bona fide, bona fide.

42:20

Okay, I was just, I've never pronounced it bona fide in my life, and then I realized...

42:25

You've been reading the Reformers too long. You're reverting to Latin, Chris.

42:32

Well, that is Latin. I know it is Latin. Yes, it is Latin. Would this save time and effort, while also increasing the learning effect by the evolutionist, confronting himself with the absence of evidence for his claims?

42:45

Thank you so much for blessing us today. So basically, he's saying, shouldn't we be giving them the burden, them the burden of the proof, rather than insisting that we run around on their rabbit trails?

42:58

Yeah, the answer is yes, and I'll give you... I do one thing in my seminars which addresses this quite, quite simply, okay?

43:04

I ask the audience if anyone has a dog, and it's a bunch of hands go up. And then I ask if anyone has a cat, and a bunch of hands go up.

43:11

And then I'll say, well, can you take your cat with your dog and make a dat? And of course the answer is no. So the question you want to ask them is, if there are dogs and cats, why aren't there a whole bunch of creatures in between?

43:22

Because if one evolved, if one's a different place in the chain than the other, then there should be transitions. If biology, if evolution were true, biology should be a terrible science, because we should not be able to figure out what's what.

43:34

We should have all these transitions between stuff. We don't, we have distinct kinds. And you can tell that particularly by chromosome count.

43:42

The only time chromosome count ever gets into play of being two different creatures is with the horse and the mule, or the horse, the donkey, and the mule, okay?

43:50

That's the one place where the two chromosome counts are too different. But most others are 10, 12, 15 different.

43:56

And because of that, you won't get cross reproduction. So that's just a huge barrier.

44:02

So it's a great question. If you got cats and dogs, what about in between? Where's all the creatures in between?

44:09

Well, as I have told many people, you shouldn't look for the missing links in the fossil record, you should look for them down the street.

44:18

Because if you have them, if you have monkeys, you have men, it only stands to reason you would have everything in between still existing, and you don't.

44:27

So, you know, unless the world were crowded with all the missing links living still. And that's why the

44:33

Nazis and other races throughout history have used evolutionary arguments to say, to make the horrific claim that the races outside of the white race are those missing links.

44:50

Let me give you an example from the book here. The number of chromosome counts. Humans are 46.

44:57

Dolphins are 44. Beavers are 40.

45:04

Horses are 64. The highest in the warm -blooded type creatures is the aquatic rat at 92.

45:13

So it has nothing to do with where the creature ranks in the evolutionary tree. And it becomes a barrier for creatures to cross reproduce.

45:23

It just doesn't work. Okay. Well, thank you very much,

45:29

Joe in Slovenia. Thank you very much for also giving us an American address where your daughter lives in Georgia for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service to mail your free copy of Without Three Miracles, Darwin's Dead, compliments of our friend

45:46

Charlie Liebert, and compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

45:52

cvbbs .com. And we thank Todd and Patty Jennings for providing us with these free,

46:01

I'm sorry, for mailing out these free books to our listeners at no cost to you or to us.

46:09

Well, let's get to the second point, the second miracle that's required, and put it under a magnifying glass.

46:14

Okay, let's put the second one. This is the miracle of what evolutionists called abiogenesis, which is the opposite of biogenesis, which is the law.

46:24

The law developed by Pasteur when Pasteur did his experiments and determined that life came from living organisms.

46:33

When he determined that, the law of biogenesis was begun and defined later by other scientists. But the law simply says that life, that means living organisms, come only from life and life of the same kind of life.

46:47

That's what the law says. And evolution has to break that, because evolution has to take dead chemicals in some form, mix them together, and eventually have life appear from dead stuff.

46:58

And the miracle I call that is Frankenstein, because that's what Frankenstein did. He assembled a man from dead parts.

47:05

And that's what evolution is claiming to do. And that's an impossibility. That's an impossibility because, first of all, how complex life is.

47:13

And secondly, it violates the law. And again, laws can be violated. When I've read the evolutionists on this, the most common answer is it happened once, and Richard Dawkins, the foremost evolutionist in the world today, says it happened once somewhere else, because he believes in panspermia.

47:30

That means that life came here, was planted here by aliens of some kind. And because of that, he basically begs the question.

47:37

Much more believable theory. Much more believable. When he was confronted, that was his answer.

47:45

The aliens came here and planted a seed, and the seed grew and became whatever we have. Well, there you have a living example of total depravity, because you will have man, even a brilliant man, a man considered to be a genius, a phenomenon, that he is so brilliant that instead of bowing the knee to Christ, instead of recognizing that the scriptures are the sole inerrant authority that we have, he would rather believe that Martians somehow impregnated somebody here on this planet, or I don't even know how it would work in his scenario.

48:25

And I don't even think that we should go too far with that discussion. No, I don't think we should either. But thank you.

48:36

Actually, that was the other topic that we were just talking about. Okay. Number two.

48:43

Yes. Excuse me? That means thank you, Charlie. Yeah, right. Well, why don't we put number three under the magnifying glass, unless you have something else to expand with.

48:56

We pretty much covered number two. Well, let's go back to number two just for another second, okay? Because the other aspect of this, besides the issue with life appearing from non -life, the other issue here is life's complexity.

49:09

And I've dealt with that some in here. I dealt with that more in book number two, Answers for the Hope That's In You.

49:16

There are incredible things happening in our bodies that just defy it. When Richard Behe wrote his book,

49:22

Darwin's Black Box, he talked about that. The fact that some of these processes are irreducibly complex.

49:27

And I'm teaching Sunday school at the church I'm at. And this Sunday we did biology. And one of the things

49:33

I taught about was the bombardier beetle. Because the bombardier beetle has a defense. And it's called...

49:38

Can I say this on the air? Steam farts? Oh, you already did. I knew

49:43

I was going to set you up for that one, Chris. Sorry. But in fact, this is the primary reason I keep

49:49

Reverend Buzz Taylor's mic muted. Oh, wow. You never know what you're going to hear on this program.

49:58

Exactly my point. But the creature's got a complex system with four different chemicals, three different chambers, and a little turret on the back that rotates 360 degrees to fire out steam filled with noxious gases that basically defer anybody from eating it.

50:16

And that system requires completeness from the beginning. The creature can't defend itself without it.

50:21

And in an environment it lives, which is a swamp, which is full of predators, it would disappear very quickly.

50:27

So it has to be complete from the beginning and has to be fully functional. Well, that means that it has to be created in a moment or in a system at one time.

50:36

It can't evolve over millions and millions of years. So that's one of the great examples. And biological complexity is something that when you begin to understand creatures, you look at bird brains and bee intelligence.

50:47

There's all kinds of things that are happening in science now that are just saying that the design is way beyond what we ever imagined when we were in 1950s and 60s.

50:56

Yeah. I remember years ago reading, I'm sure you're familiar with Dwayne Gish's book on dinosaurs.

51:02

Yes. Yeah. I was reading about the bombardier beetle in there with some friends of mine, and we were literally rolling all over the floor laughing that people could actually take that stuff seriously.

51:12

Because he explained it in steps like, you know, the predator comes up to the bombardier beetle. It's like, I think

51:17

I need to grow something right now, you know, to defend myself against this toad that's coming towards me now.

51:23

So he does the first part and then he gets eaten up. There's one more example

51:29

I'll give in this area of biological complexity. Some research was done in England with the honeybees.

51:37

Now, honeybees are, you know, insects, and they have a very small brain. But when honeybees come back to the hive and they found a source of nectar, they do a little dance in the hive that communicates where the nectar source is.

51:48

The scientists are wondering about, you know, just how much can the bees really reason about this.

51:54

So they took a nectar source and put it 50 meters from the hive. It took the bees about 24 hours to find it. They found it.

52:00

They came back, did the dance, and sure enough, the bees are taking the nectar out of the bowl. So 24 hours later, they move the bowl 50 meters further away.

52:09

The bees take again about 24 hours to find it. They come and start to take it again, doing the dance.

52:15

Then they move it again, third time, 25 meters further away. The bees find it, this time in about 12 hours rather than 24.

52:24

They do the dance. The bees go out and take it. Now, they move it again 50 meters away.

52:30

This is the fourth time the bees are waiting for them. The bees are waiting at the new site, expecting the nectar to be there.

52:38

Now, bees have reasoned that out in some fashion with a bee brain. Now they said, let's carry this further.

52:44

Let's take the nectar source and put it in the middle of a lake in a boat. And the bees never found it. They finally took some bees and showed them where it was, and marked those bees, and let them go back.

52:53

No bee would ever go there. The bees must have reasoned that there can't be a nectar source in the middle of a lake. They flew over the lake to the sources on the other side, but they never went to the source in the lake.

53:02

So there's bee intelligence that's beyond what we would expect from an insect. Now, I don't know if this is true or not.

53:10

I can recall hearing it somewhere. But is it true that there is no scientific explanation that there is a certain kind of bee?

53:20

I'm not certain which kind of bee. But for the size of the wings, the wingspan, in comparison to the size and weight of the body of the bee, it should be scientifically impossible for this type of bee to fly.

53:34

Yeah, the statement there is simple. By the laws of aerodynamics that we know that we fly airplanes with, the bee cannot fly.

53:42

The bumblebee cannot fly. He cannot fly. It's impossible for him to fly. But he doesn't know that. Nobody told him.

53:48

Now, what do the secular scientists have to say about that? Do you know? It's an exception, you know.

53:53

They love exceptions. They do exceptions in evolution all the time. Exceptions with fossil record. There are exceptions in everything. You were mentioning the bee dance.

54:00

Yeah. I saw that demonstrated on a moody science film years ago. And I don't think the average listener understands just how amazing that stuff is.

54:10

The movie video is called City of the Bees. All right. We have to go to our midway break right now, if you'd like to join us on the air.

54:18

This is our longer than normal break to accommodate our friends at Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, who require an elongated break in the middle of the program.

54:29

So if you'd like to join us on the air, now would be the time to send in a question. Think about a good one and send it in to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. So don't go away. God willing, we're going to be right back after these messages with more of Charlie Liebert.

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Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron radio. And don't forget about the sale that CVBBS .com

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is currently running half price on all reformed commentaries, including the brand new commentary by Richard D.

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Phillips. And these are all hardback volumes. So go to CVBBS .com,

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CVBBS .com to find out more about this 50 % sale on all reformed expository commentaries, all in hardback.

01:04:52

And make sure that you mention Chris Aronson from Iron Sharpens Iron radio when you contact CVBBS .com

01:04:58

and tell Todd and Patty Jennings I said hello. And before we return to our discussion with Charlie Liebert of Six Day Creation .com,

01:05:07

I have some important announcements to make about special events. The first of which you heard me mention earlier, the

01:05:15

Iron Sharpens Iron radio Reformation Day Pastors Luncheon is going to be held,

01:05:21

God willing, on Thursday, October 26 from 11am to 2pm at the

01:05:29

Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. The guest speaker is going to be

01:05:36

Pastor Bill Shishko, host of a Visit to the Pastors study radio broadcast, and also a domestic missionary with Reformation Metro New York, which is a parachurch organization under the oversight of the

01:05:53

Orthodox Presbyterian Church, which happens to be the denomination of the congregation where our guest

01:05:59

Charlie Liebert is a member. If you haven't heard Pastor Bill Shishko preach and teach yet, you've got to look him up on Sermon Audio and other places to hear him and it would be even better if you heard him in person by coming to the

01:06:13

Iron Sharpens Iron radio Pastors Luncheon. That's for Reformation Day on Thursday, October 26th, 11am to 2pm.

01:06:22

Send me an email if you'd like to register. If you are a man in ministry leadership, this is a luncheon for men only, and if you are a pastor, a deacon, a leader in a parachurch organization, then send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:06:38

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put Pastors Luncheon in the subject line. The next event is coming up on Friday, September 29th, and Saturday, September 30th, and that's the

01:06:50

Gospel of the Reformation, a 500th anniversary celebration hosted by the

01:06:56

Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, in cooperation with the Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship.

01:07:02

The keynote speaker will be Dr. Tony Costa, a dear friend of mine who is on the faculty at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

01:07:09

He is a professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, and as I said, that will be held on Friday, September 29th, and Saturday, September 30th, in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, at the

01:07:23

Word of Truth Church. For more details, you can go to wotchurch .com,

01:07:30

W -O -T, which stands for Word of Truth Church .com, wotchurch .com, or call 631 -806 -0614, 631 -806 -0614, and I plan to be there with an

01:07:43

Iron Sherpins Iron Radio Exhibitors booth, so I hope to see you there. And then the next day, another place

01:07:48

I will be going to with an Iron Sherpins Iron Exhibitors booth, God willing, is the Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York, who will also be featuring

01:07:56

Dr. Tony Costa as their speaker for their Sunday morning worship service at 11 a .m.

01:08:04

If you'd like more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church of Long Island, go to hopereformedli .net, hopereformedli .net,

01:08:12

or call 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711.

01:08:19

And then, coming up in November, the 17th through the 18th, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their

01:08:26

Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology on the theme for Still Our Ancient Foe, a line from Martin Luther's classic

01:08:33

Reformation Hymn of Mighty Fortress, referring to Satan. And the speakers include

01:08:38

Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant. That's November 17th through the 18th at the

01:08:45

Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania. If you would like to register for that event, go to alliancenet .org,

01:08:52

alliancenet .org, click on Events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology. Then, in January, from the 17th through the 20th, the

01:09:01

G3 Conference is being held in Atlanta, Georgia, on the theme, Knowing God, a

01:09:07

Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. And on the 17th, it is exclusively a

01:09:12

Spanish -speaking edition of the conference. From the 18th through the 20th, it is exclusively an English -speaking edition of the conference, featuring

01:09:20

Stephen Lawson, Bodie Balcombe, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B. Charles, Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bias, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Matheny, and Michael Kruger, Dennis Miller, David Miller, I'm sorry, not the comedian

01:09:31

Dennis Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, Martha Peace, and Justin Peters.

01:09:38

If you'd like to register for that event, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com, and I intend,

01:09:45

God willing, to be there as well with an Iron Sherpa's Iron Exhibitor's booth, just as I was this past January, so I hope to see many of you there at the

01:09:52

G3 Conference. In fact, I intend to be at all of those events that I just mentioned.

01:09:58

If you contact any of those organizations to register or just to find out more information about their events, please let them know that you heard about those events from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio, and please, this is, now

01:10:12

I'm putting on my grubber hat, if you will, I'm rattling my tin cup to beg you for money, because Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio is in a desperate situation financially, and we urgently need additional benefactors and advertisers.

01:10:30

I've been compelled to make these public appeals by my current advertisers who want Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio to remain on the air for many years to come, and if they did not urge me to make these public appeals,

01:10:43

I probably would not be doing it, but to respect them and their wishes, especially since they spend hard -earned money keeping our program on the air,

01:10:52

I'm asking you, if you can afford to help us out financially, if you really want this program to continue airing, if you love it, if it blesses you, if you're edified by the guests and topics, even if you hate me, but you love the guests, then please consider sending in a check for any amount that you can afford made payable to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.

01:11:11

You can find the address by going to IronSherpa'sIronRadio .com, IronSherpa'sIronRadio .com, and click on support, and then send the check to the address that you will see when you click support.

01:11:25

Please never, ever siphon money out of your regular giving to your local church.

01:11:32

I never want you to be taking money out of your giving that you're accustomed to give to your local church, nor do

01:11:39

I want people who are struggling to make ends meet taking food off of their family's dinner table. Those two things are commands of God providing for church and home, and providing for my radio program is not a command of God, but if you are blessed above and beyond your financial ability to obey those two commands to provide for church and home, then please consider helping us remain on the air with a check made payable to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.

01:12:02

Go to IronSherpa'sIronRadio .com and click on support for the address. And if you'd like to advertise with us, no matter what it is that you want to advertise, as long as it's compatible with the theology expressed on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio, it doesn't have to be identical, just compatible, and send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:12:22

chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line, whether it's your church, parachurch ministry, your business, your professional practice, whether you're a doctor, a lawyer, a dentist, a chiropractor, whether it's a special event you're having, please let me know if we can help you promote that event or business or corporation or professional practice or church or parachurch ministry.

01:12:50

Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com. And that's the same address, or I should say email address, where you can send us a question for Charlie Liebert.

01:12:59

And our discussion, as I said earlier, our discussion today is, without three miracles,

01:13:05

Darwin's dead. Science proves atheistic evolution is impossible. So send us a question to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:13:14

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And we do have a question from Jeff in Clinton Township, New Jersey.

01:13:26

And he says, when was it decided to make the doctrine of creation a secondary issue, introducing different ways to interpret the word day?

01:13:40

Who was the first to popularize this or these notions? And I'm assuming he's talking about Christians.

01:13:47

Who were the first Christians to popularize this? Do you have? Yeah, I guess I can give some insight in that.

01:13:54

First of all, when Darwin wrote in 1859, most of the churches basically gave in to that explanation of origins.

01:14:04

And they gave in for quite a long time. It wasn't until the 1950s when Henry Morris and John Whitcomb wrote the book

01:14:09

Genesis Flood, did the modern creationist movement begin to go back to the six days.

01:14:15

Now, people believed six days all along in that time frame. But there was a compromise from 1859 when

01:14:22

Darwin first wrote in the church that pretty much carried forward. And that carries forward even today. The denomination

01:14:27

I'm a part of allows three interpretations of Genesis, young earth, old earth, and what's called a framework hypothesis.

01:14:36

So even the modern denominations that are very conservative still do allow this. And I'm not sure exactly why, because to me, the theological issue is the big one.

01:14:44

And the big theological issue is death before sin. And you can't get past that with old earth. I mean, I just don't know how you do that.

01:14:53

But where it came from, it happened when Darwin first wrote, before that, they were all creationists. I mean, go back to the ancient scientist

01:14:59

Newton. Newton said what? Science is finding God's thoughts after him. So Newton certainly knew that God was real.

01:15:06

And so did almost the ancient scientists. But then the church bought into Darwinism and just kind of ignored that and said, science and religion are separate.

01:15:13

They came to that conclusion, which is dead wrong. And then they went from there, and the compromises still exist.

01:15:19

I think what you meant was that before Darwin, Christians were unanimously

01:15:26

Yes, I should have said that. Because there were evolutionists before Darwin. Oh, yes. Evolution goes back to Socrates, even before Socrates, okay, it goes back to the beginning, actually, in the garden, if you want to really trace it there, doubting

01:15:36

God's word. And by the way, sorry for confusing your city and state with our friend from New Jersey in Clifton, New Jersey.

01:15:48

Jeff, I erroneously placed Clinton Township in New Jersey when I announced it to you.

01:15:54

It's Clinton Township, Michigan. And thank you for providing your mailing address because you have also won a free copy of Without Three Miracles, Darwin's Dead.

01:16:04

And that book will be shipped out to you, compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

01:16:11

Now we have Joey in Clifton, New Jersey.

01:16:18

And I have to enlarge Joey's email because it's microscopic. And I'm 55 going to be 56 in February on Valentine's Day, and I'm going blind.

01:16:30

Alrighty, let's see here. We have from Joey in Clifton, New Jersey, Dear Charlie, I totally agree with you.

01:16:38

Points and support your efforts. I think you've missed a word here. I totally agree with you on your points, perhaps and support your efforts.

01:16:46

Thanks for your great scientific labor for the gospel. Just want to ask for clarification on your view of entropy.

01:16:54

Is your view that if entropy includes, I'm sorry, if is your view that if entropy excludes divine intervention, as the evolutionist claims, then there could be absolutely no examples of a process ever leading to less entropy in an isolated system, i .e.

01:17:18

not even one case resulting in a higher state of order.

01:17:23

I totally agree with your conclusion. But I'm just wondering, I'm just reasoning through how we get there.

01:17:30

In other words, if we think of the law of entropy, as a statistical phenomenon, does that impact the conclusion in any way?

01:17:40

I asked because I am wondering whether this third point is as strong as the first two.

01:17:46

Thank you for your labors, brother. Okay, let me address that. Entropy is a statement that comes from physics and relates to the nature of physics, which is all the physical processes on the planet.

01:17:59

That's where that law originally comes from. But that law does apply to all of the universe.

01:18:07

It's true everywhere. It doesn't just seem to be everywhere.

01:18:16

Your observation that my third point is the weaker, that's probably true. I've had atheists in my weekly

01:18:23

Twitter for my blog attack me on that one particularly. They don't attack biogenesis, they don't attack the first law, but they tend to want to attack the second law.

01:18:32

They'll claim that there are processes on the earth that take us to less entropy, which means more order, that don't have intelligence.

01:18:41

I still haven't got anyone to tell me what processes they are, but they're claiming that there are processes that do that.

01:18:47

I don't see that. I see the universe is running down universally. As a result, entropy is always increasing.

01:18:54

The only time it decreases is when you have an intelligent machine to do it. I use the example of photosynthesis. That's an intelligent machine.

01:19:01

That takes energy and converts it. That's entropy going in the opposite direction. Well, thank you,

01:19:08

Joey. You have won our final copy that we have to give away today of Without Three Miracles, Darwin's Dead.

01:19:14

Thanks to our friend, Charlie Liebert, and also thanks to our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who will be shipping that out to you.

01:19:21

Make sure we have your full mailing address in Clifton, New Jersey, so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

01:19:29

can get that to you as soon as possible. Thanks always for contributing wonderful questions to our discussions on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:19:38

All right. Well, let's once again return to that third point and put a magnifying glass over it and just fully flesh out what you were highlighting in that third miracle that's required.

01:19:52

Okay. The third miracle is called uphill molasses. If you look at the universe, the universe is running down in every case.

01:19:59

Like I said, that's the law of physics. It says that every time you do any kind of work, the work loses a certain amount of heat that's not recoverable.

01:20:10

Again, Asimov, in his writing, said that the universe would eventually die a heat death. It would run down, because the order is decaying all the time, that the order would eventually disperse into a low level of evenly distributed energy and matter over the whole universe.

01:20:27

So if the universe were eternal, it should be just a dead flat mass, basically.

01:20:33

So the universe is not eternal. That's the first thing that says. And it also says it's running down, which implies it was wound up at the beginning, that things were more complex in the beginning.

01:20:43

And you see that all over. I mean, an example of entropy applied to living organisms might be that might be the process of extinction.

01:20:51

And I didn't argue this one in the book, but entropy basically says that it's running down, and evolution has to go in the opposite direction.

01:21:01

It has to add complexity. It has to add new stuff to existing stuff. If you want to take the genome and you want to get a creature that has a light sensitive spot and turn that into an eye, you've got to add intelligent information into the

01:21:15

DNA to do that. And that runs counter to the second law of thermodynamics. You don't have intelligent information cropping up.

01:21:22

You'll have decay with the genome. The genome will decay. Examples of that would be genetic defects.

01:21:29

And most of us today have a lot of genetic defects. I've got a couple. I've got diabetes, heart disease, hypertension, probably all coming through the genes.

01:21:41

Well, by the way, Buzz Taylor, Reverend Buzz Taylor has a comment or question. Well, when you talk about God winding things up, of course, what comes to my mind that you want to differentiate between what you're saying and deism?

01:21:54

Okay, yeah, let's get to that. When you go back to the days of creation on the six days, on day number one,

01:22:02

God creates the raw material. And then on the days two, three, four, and five, he's going to take that raw material and assemble it into more order.

01:22:12

On the end of day number two, you have a water covered body that's going to become the earth. And then he's going to separate the waters from the waters, waters above and waters below on day number two.

01:22:21

And on day number three, he's going to bring the land up out of the water and put the plants on the land.

01:22:27

And then day number four, he's going to order the stars in the universe. And all of that happens as God is essentially winding up the universe.

01:22:36

Now, he's going to do two more creative acts. He's going to create the living organisms in the sea and in the air.

01:22:43

And then he's going to get living organisms on the land and eventually man. And all that is the process of winding up. So when it says, at the end of the day, number six,

01:22:50

God looked at everything he's made, and behold, it's very good. He's finished. The watch is completely wound.

01:22:58

From this point on, it's stable. Now, when sin enters, the process of decay begins.

01:23:07

So there's a winding up, a steady state, and then a sudden process of decay.

01:23:13

And that process of decay is irreversible. It's going to run down. It's just simply a matter of time.

01:23:20

Everybody knows that in their own bodies, right? Your body's not functioning as well as it did years ago. When you were young, nice 18, 20 -year -old, your body, now everything's falling apart.

01:23:33

Well, we're going to go to our final break right now. And now is the time for you to send in questions before we run out of time.

01:23:40

If you have a question you'd like to ask, do it now or forever hold your peace. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:23:51

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, unless you have a personal or private matter that you are asking about that compels you not to identify yourself.

01:24:06

But other than that, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

01:24:15

USA. Don't go away. God willing, we are going to be right back with more of Charlie Liebert and Without Three Miracles, Darwin's Dead, right after these messages.

01:24:28

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01:25:42

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the Pastor's Study every

01:25:48

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01:31:04

Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:31:10

I would like to introduce you to my good friends, Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

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That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com. That's CVBBS .com.

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Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And don't forget about the 50 % sale, 50 % off all expository reformed commentaries in hardback at CVBBS .com.

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CVBBS .com. Go to that website today, right after the show is over, and order the commentaries of your choice.

01:32:42

And please make sure you mention Chris Arnzen and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio as the source where you discovered

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CVBBS .com. Before we go to the Reverend Buzz Taylor, who has a clarification that he wants you to make, we have

01:32:57

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who said you were discussing the Bombardier Beetle before.

01:33:02

Is that the same beetle that I have heard of through Ken Ham's ministry that actually shoots flame?

01:33:09

And actually, I have a brother who could do that with a Bic lighter, but that's a different story. My brother does it and it requires already a spark existing from an outside source.

01:33:22

The answer to that question is yes, that is the same Bombardier Beetle that Ken Ham talks about in his ministry.

01:33:31

It's not really flame, it's really steam filled with noxious gases. Really? Because I thought for certain there was a beetle that actually shot a flame.

01:33:39

No, it's not really a flame, but it would appear to be like a flame because it comes out looking like that, but it is steam.

01:33:45

Okay, and you're certain about that? I'm absolutely certain about that. Because I thought that that's why he was giving credibility to the descriptions of dragons being dinosaurs because...

01:33:58

Yes, well, it would be the same process. It would be the same process. The Parasaurolophus, the dinosaur that has the chambered rod above its head, is designed in the same fashion as the

01:34:11

Bombardier Beetle. So it could, in fact, do that. And just depending on which chemicals you mix together, you get flame, you get steam, you get,

01:34:17

I don't know, probably hot liquid. Whatever it is, it's awful. Whatever it is, it's awful. All right,

01:34:24

Reverend Buzz Taylor, you wanted to have Charlie give a clarification of something that he was saying. Well, yes, we were discussing the subject of deism and what he's presenting.

01:34:33

So if you could clarify. Yeah, I'll just clarify that. When I talked before about God winding up the universe and then going to steady state before the entrance of sin,

01:34:43

I didn't imply, and didn't mean to imply, that God, in fact, had left. God is present. He's ever -present in the universe, and he's in the process of doing things in terms of history.

01:34:51

In fact, history is his story. So if you see the whole premise, God does not get up and leave as the deists would believe, but God, in fact, is present continually in the creation.

01:35:01

Could you, would this be a good explanation of what you meant? That God no longer normatively intercedes in the creation process miraculously in regard to how his creation grows, flourishes, and multiplies, and so on.

01:35:26

In other words, the ex -Nilholm creation, and also the creation in the garden, and so on, those things initially required a supernatural intervention.

01:35:45

That's correct. But now he doesn't, that's not a normative thing. That's not a normative thing, and we call the miracles when

01:35:50

God intervenes now. We call them miracles. But God is present in history, and God has ordained what happens in history.

01:35:55

So bear in mind that he is the force behind it. But again, he's not intervening at any time unless he chooses to.

01:36:05

I mean, you just don't know that. I think the classic example we have of that, though, is the resurrection of Christ.

01:36:11

Because you have a man who was hanging on a cross for hours, had a spear thrust to his side, had severe blood loss, was dead, was buried, and yet came to life.

01:36:22

Life came to the dead. But that was, again, that was God's interference with a process that was already at play there.

01:36:30

But he can circumvent that any time he wants to. He can do a miracle any time he wants to. And that's really what faces the atheist.

01:36:36

He doesn't believe in miracles. So he's got to explain everything by naturalistic processes. And that's why Darwin's dead, three miracles.

01:36:44

He can't have three miracles. Well, I think that we should expand upon why this is so important, because of the fact that it even hinges on something that was asked earlier.

01:36:57

Why is this a big deal, really? To paraphrase what a questioner said, does this really bring about any harm to Christians who are theistic evolutions to hold to these concepts?

01:37:12

I know that you've, or we have touched on it. I mentioned earlier how even the

01:37:17

Nazis used as a part of their propaganda a belief that non -Aryan races, which would be non -white

01:37:29

Nordic races, those other races, of course, we believe that there's only one race, the human race, but they would believe that those outside of Caucasian humans would be a part of missing links.

01:37:47

There would be evidence of a missing link that would be closer to the ancestry of the ape.

01:37:52

And this shows you the evil and racist nature of evolution, doesn't it?

01:37:58

Yes. Now let me address that in something else I've written. It appears in several of my books. And that is talking about education and teaching children.

01:38:07

If you teach a child, he came from dirt, and he's going to dirt. There's no purpose in life and no meaning that it doesn't have any function at all other than the fact to live and to die.

01:38:19

Then the child has a set of values that spring off that, and those values are what?

01:38:25

Well, survival of the fittest. Theoretically, I can do anything I want to, and life doesn't matter.

01:38:31

However, when you teach a child, you're made in the image of God. God is ever -present, and God is here.

01:38:40

However, you have violated his law, both in nature and in action.

01:38:46

And as a result, you're separated from him. That gives a whole different mindset. And the point simply here is that whichever one of those you believe, it influences the culture.

01:38:55

And in this culture, you see that trend to move away. As we have first labeled the unborn non -people, which is what the

01:39:05

Jews did, and then we've gone to saying that certain kind of sin is okay.

01:39:12

Adultery has probably been approved somewhat for the last generation. But now we've got gay marriage.

01:39:18

We've got all the things that violate what God's law says, and that's an impact of what you teach the children at the beginning.

01:39:25

So yes, it makes a huge difference what you believe. Do you believe you're made in God's image, but you've offended him? Or do you believe you came from dirt and go into dirt?

01:39:32

That makes a big difference in how the people react to each other and how the culture evolves. The culture is evolving today, descending into Romans chapter one.

01:39:43

And to Reverend Buzz Taylor. Because that came up in the conversation. You mentioned, Chris, that there are people who would view non -white races as the missing links.

01:39:55

When I said that we should see the missing links walking around, I wasn't talking about non -white people.

01:40:01

But what I'm saying is, I'll expand it even more to show you what I mean.

01:40:06

We still don't have fish walking out of water on fins that eventually become legs. We don't have anything crawling around with half fin, half legs, or half blind because they're still trying to develop their eyes even though they didn't have...

01:40:19

All those missing links should still be in existence today. Right. That's true.

01:40:24

And by the way, Charlie, I don't know if you've ever seen or heard the testimony of Jeffrey Dahmer, who was murdered...

01:40:35

Yes, I have. He was murdered while on... I don't know if he was in prison for life or if he was on death row.

01:40:42

I think he was in prison for life. But he became apparently a

01:40:49

Christian in prison. And when he was asked in an interview, and you could probably find this on YouTube...

01:40:58

It's actually in one of my books, but go ahead. But he was actually giving as a major catalyst in his ability to murder people and even eat parts of their body with such lack of emotion and with such indifference, is because he came to believe in evolution.

01:41:20

And of course, we don't believe that every evolutionist is going to do this. But when a human being has the restraint of God lifted off of them, and their total depravity is given more freedom to act upon their notions and theories and ideologies and philosophies and religions, this is what an outcome could be, where he said, if human beings are no more than animals who are more fully evolved or developed, then killing them and even eating them is of little consequence.

01:41:58

That's correct. And that is the ultimate conclusion. Let me give an illustration of that. The foremost evolutionist in the world is

01:42:05

Richard Dawkins. He's very vocal on this particular issue. And you can see the descent, and I talk about this when

01:42:12

I do commentary on Romans chapter one, you can see the descent into depravity, because Dawkins recently said that, well, child pedophilia is really not that bad.

01:42:21

Dawkins said that. Yes, he did. He had an encounter with that when he was a child, and he thought, well, it really wasn't that bad.

01:42:29

So you see the descent of sin. It's coming down and down and down to the point where, and this culture is at that level too, where it's kind of amazing to see what's going to happen next.

01:42:39

Are we going to approve pedophilia? There's some movements in the place to do that, and that's kind of scary.

01:42:46

Yeah, the atheist has no grounds to declare a set of rules that are a litmus test of what morality and immorality are.

01:43:03

I had an atheistic professor in a seminar one time, and he challenged me on this particular issue.

01:43:10

And I turned back and I said look, since you believe there is no moral standard at all, that we kind of make up our own rules as we go along,

01:43:19

I'm going to make up a new rule. I kill everybody who disagrees with me. And he says, you can't do that. And I say, why?

01:43:25

And he says, well, it's wrong. Why is it wrong? You just told me I could define my own rules.

01:43:31

And you see, he's stumped. He's caught. Because without a moral foundation, there's no basis to say what's right or wrong.

01:43:39

Right. And David Silverman, in his debate with Dr. James R. White, basically admitted that whatever is right is determined by what the majority of people in any given region and any given period of time in history agree what is right and what is wrong.

01:43:59

And that's why he could not say that the extermination of Jews in Europe during the

01:44:08

Nazi regime was wrong. He could only say he was personally offended by it.

01:44:13

Then we would say then, for example, that native tribe in Central Africa that's cannibalistic, that eats its enemies, is perfectly legitimate because that's their set of rules.

01:44:23

That's absurd. That's completely absurd. Right. So it's interesting that whenever you wander away from Scripture, whenever you contradict what

01:44:37

God has taught, it will, even if you can't readily see it in the beginning, it will eventually lead to something that could even be quite as monstrous as the

01:44:47

Holocaust, and so on. Yes. And it's interesting how the atheists and others will try to say it's things like Christianity that lead to the

01:45:01

Holocaust. That's not true. Of course, there is no evidence in the

01:45:07

New Testament anywhere where Christ commanded his disciples to murder people or kill them for any reason.

01:45:16

Obviously, there's a difference between the death penalty, which is something that was a command of God in the

01:45:25

Old Covenant, which many Christians, if not most, believe is perpetually something to exist when it comes to murderers and other people guilty of horrific crimes that would warrant such a penalty.

01:45:41

But as far as wholesale slaughter of people because they are of different faith, this is nowhere to be found in Christianity.

01:45:51

And so, in fact, Hitler viewed Christianity as a weak and pathetic religion.

01:45:58

It was just really another branch of Judaism as far as he was concerned, even though he used, at times, and the

01:46:05

Nazis would use some of the unfortunate statements of Martin Luther as their propaganda, and they might try to appease those of Christian denominations with Christian buzz phrases and that kind of thing, but they were really not in any way, shape, or form even remotely close to adopting the theology of Christianity.

01:46:32

These were people who were, many of them, involved in the occult or Nordic worship.

01:46:39

The ceremonies of marriages and so on were being changed over to Nazi ceremonies with language that would be incorporating the pagan

01:46:54

Nordic religions and festivals and so on. Let me come back to one thing which your listeners don't know because I've never said this on the air.

01:47:02

My family background is my dad came from Germany in 1928 because his father was Jewish and his mother was

01:47:07

Lutheran. He came here with his mother's father. His father died in 1927 and he left behind three brothers that were

01:47:13

Jewish merchants in Berlin. Two owned a tobacco store. One owned a gold diamond exchange.

01:47:19

The two owned diamond exchange. And on Kristallnacht, the night the Nazis let the people loose to destroy the

01:47:25

Jewish stores, the 12 children and the six adults disappeared. We've never determined where they went.

01:47:31

Wow. They were probably put in the mass grave outside of Berlin. And my dad tried later on to try to find them.

01:47:38

We didn't. So I have a direct connection with the Holocaust in that sense. And I'm a Bible -believing Christian because I believe

01:47:43

Christianity addresses that. It says simply that's dead wrong. That's an absolutely—actually, it's an incredible event that they would even think to do that.

01:47:53

But you know, the Jews are the apples of God's eye and the world wants to destroy everything

01:47:58

God has. Yeah. Even if you were to—the atheistic argument that religion leads to things like the

01:48:09

Holocaust. Well, that's true because I totally disagree, radically disagree with this movement amongst conservatives, even conservative evangelicals.

01:48:23

That we should be just promoting theism as if theism as a rule is superior to atheism.

01:48:35

I don't believe that. No, the only thing that saves is Jesus Christ. Amen. And anything less than that is obnoxious to mankind.

01:48:44

I mean, it's going to take people into hell. So that's the only place you can go. Yes. To just promote theism like the old phrase that atheists and people who would say that they don't believe in organized religion, they will say, well, that religion has caused more wars and more deaths than anything else in history.

01:49:05

Whether or not that's true, I'm not going to argue. But I can say, yeah, because every other religion other than Christianity is a false religion.

01:49:14

In fact, atheism and agnosticism are religions, even if they are claimed—

01:49:20

If they claim not to, yeah. Okay. Well, I'd like you to summarize for us in about—

01:49:25

Yes. —with about five minutes of time. Okay. Try not to hit your microphone. I'll try not to hit my microphone.

01:49:31

Try to summarize in about five minutes worth of time a summary of what you had—a summary of a summary.

01:49:37

Yeah, a summary of a summary. A summary of what you have to leave our listeners with today. The first thing I want to say is I'm working on funding my marketing for this book, and I'm using something called crowdfunding, if any of you know what that is.

01:49:50

And I'm using a site called Indiegogo. And so if you would be interested in that, if you log onto the site, and I'll give you the location, it's igg .me

01:50:00

slash at slash, and now you want to use the letters to abbreviate the book in capital letters,

01:50:07

W3MDD. Maybe we should just give you an email address.

01:50:13

W3MDD. Give your email address. My email address is easy, charlieat6daycreation .com, okay?

01:50:19

Because otherwise they have to memorize an eye chart. No, don't do that. Don't do that. Okay. charlieat6daycreation .com.

01:50:25

If you're interested in participating at all in the crowdfunding of my marketing, get to me at my email address. That's the first thing.

01:50:30

Second thing is I believe this book can make a big difference. Okay. The other two books I wrote were basically designed for the church, for evangelism and answering questions.

01:50:38

This book is designed for a general audience. Okay. People that are theistic evolutionists or evolutionists or whatever should read this because they should see the flaws in their arguments.

01:50:48

I've already had people that have reviewed it. It's been available on Amazon about six weeks now. And I've had people that have bought it and reviewed it and come to me with all kinds of objections and comments.

01:51:00

But I haven't had anyone say that it's wrong. They're just saying that they don't like it.

01:51:06

Well, I don't care if you don't like it. My purpose is not to be liked. My purpose is to put forth Christ.

01:51:12

So that's the result. So it's without three miracles, Darwin's dead. The three miracles are magic. That's something from nothing.

01:51:18

The second miracle is Frankenstein. That's life from dead stuff. And the third miracle is uphill molasses, which is entropy.

01:51:24

It's going uphill in a downhill world. And those three miracles prevent atheistic evolution from functioning. Now, theistic evolution we've dealt with already.

01:51:31

We said simply it doesn't work because of theology, because you can't have death before sin, and it makes no sense to do that.

01:51:38

So theistic evolution goes out the window. That leaves us with what? Creation or evolution? Atheistic evolution or creation?

01:51:44

I pity the atheists because they have no other place to go. Creationists have a lot of places to go.

01:51:51

We can go to young Earth, old Earth. We can do a lot of different things. But the evolutionists are stuck with one. They're stuck with one, which is atheistic evolution, and it doesn't work.

01:52:00

Scientifically, it doesn't work. You can't get something from nothing. You can't get life from dead stuff. And you can't go uphill when the whole world is running downhill.

01:52:08

It's as simple as that. Chris, it's been great being with you today. I really appreciate that. Yeah. In fact, we should make sure that our listeners, when they are having conversations with their friends who are either atheist agnostics or people who are just in general questioning or disagreeing with the notion of an intelligent designer or creation, repeat those three things again because I think those are things that should be repeated.

01:52:37

You're not going to have everyone in our audience being as boned up on the facts of science as you are, who are not going to remember these things.

01:52:48

And I know that you're a presuppositionalist, so it's not really required that we know all these things. But it is helpful to know these things.

01:52:55

But give our listeners again the three things. Take out your pen and write down this, okay? The first miracle is magic, and it means something appears from nothing.

01:53:05

That's a violation of a scientific law, and that violation of law is impossible. The second miracle is called

01:53:11

Frankenstein, and it has to do with the fact that dead stuff becomes alive. That doesn't happen either in nature, and it doesn't happen in science.

01:53:20

The law of biogenesis prohibits that. And the third miracle, I call it uphill molasses, and that simply says that you can't go uphill when the whole universe is running downhill.

01:53:30

And evolution goes uphill in complexity, it goes uphill in processes, it goes uphill in a great number of ways, and it's not possible.

01:53:38

And the evolutionary argument adding energy doesn't work because energy only adds order when you have an intelligently designed machine like photosynthesis to do it.

01:53:48

So science proves atheistic evolution is impossible. And the book will put it together for you in a simple language, easy to read, not complex, although I deal with things like Miller and Fox, it's done always simply in language that's non -technical.

01:54:04

Would it be under the umbrella of the third miracle that molasses runs uphill, would this be a category or a subcategory of that?

01:54:14

The fact that mutations do not reproduce.

01:54:21

When an animal gives birth, for instance, to a mutation, a deformity, when it gives birth to an offspring that has a deformity, these mutations, if you will, of animal life do not find mates and reproduce, which really destroys the whole concept of evolution.

01:54:46

That's generally true, but most evolutionists will argue with you and say, well, the mutation is kind of hidden, it's kind of so small you don't really notice it generation to generation because they want to do it very slowly.

01:54:56

The problem with that is mutations do not add new information. And to go from a light -sensitive spot to an eye, you need to add a huge amount of new information to the genome.

01:55:08

And we know that now with our genetic research. We know that complexity is dictated by the genome itself.

01:55:14

That's how you get complexity. It's dictated by the genes. The gene tells the body exactly how to produce itself.

01:55:20

And as a result, there has to be new information added. And that never happens in nature, and that's a violation of entropy.

01:55:28

And the whole concept of atheistic evolution, doesn't it require so many unfathomable occurrences that the odds are extraordinarily against these events occurring within nature, barring miracles?

01:55:49

Someone actually did some research on this back in the 70s. And they said, what's the probability of taking some amino acids and mixing them up together, having all the ones you need and building a simple protein?

01:56:01

One of the simple proteins. I dealt with this in book number two. Just building a simple protein. And the odds come to having it happen.

01:56:10

Figuring out all the mixing together, the right ones connect in the right place, and everything has to be exactly in the right place.

01:56:17

And you've got in there right -handed and left -handed. You only have right -handed, I'm sorry, you only have left -handed amino acids.

01:56:23

So half of them can't, anytime they interact, the material becomes dead. So you've got this, so they've calculated the odds.

01:56:30

The odds were one to, I'm sorry, 10 to the 237th power.

01:56:36

Now, that's a big number. How big is it? Well, the estimate of the universe, totally, the number of electrons in the universe is 10 to the 80.

01:56:47

The amount of grains on the sand of the beach and the stars in the universe, because God says they're the same and they appear to be based on the research we've done, is 10 to the 20.

01:56:56

So the probability of a protein arising spontaneously from a mix of amino acids is virtually impossible.

01:57:02

Especially when you leave completely out of the equation a sovereign, almighty, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent

01:57:13

God. And these are just happening, they're happening allegedly by chance.

01:57:20

You must have intelligence to design. You don't walk along the beach looking for watches because everything that's on the beach is required to watch.

01:57:28

I mean, all the metals are dissolved in the salt water and the sand is there to make glass. Just give me a little time and we'll find a watch.

01:57:35

We don't find a watch on the beach. Why not? Because it requires a designer. I've found plenty of watches on the beach.

01:57:43

Dropped by somebody else. Right, right, okay. Oh, back to that one now. Aliens, okay.

01:57:51

Okay. In fact, I wait for people to fall asleep on the beach to steal their watches.

01:57:57

But anyway, well, I want to make sure that our listeners have your contact information.

01:58:04

sixdaycreation .com. That's S -I -X day creation, not the number. Not the number, yeah. sixdaycreation .com.

01:58:10

And the email is charlie at sixdaycreation .com. Any other website or contact information?

01:58:15

Yeah, there's two other websites that are available that sell the books, but you can get them on Amazon, too.

01:58:21

My websites are yourchristiananswers .com. That's your Y -O -U -R, yourchristiananswers .com. And the second one is

01:58:27

W3M, Darwin's Dead. Okay, great. Well, thank you so much,

01:58:32

Charlie, for being our guest today. Thank you for all, many thanks to all of our listeners who listened today, and especially those who wrote in questions.

01:58:41

Thank you, Reverend Buzz Taylor, for being my co -host. Thank you, Chris. And I want to make sure that you all remember to tell your pastors or anyone you know in ministry leadership, if you are not in ministry leadership yourself, tell them to send me an email if they want more information about the next

01:59:02

Iron Sharpens Iron Pastors Luncheon. This is for men only. It's going to be held October 26th, 11 a .m.

01:59:08

to 2 p .m. at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall, featuring keynote speaker

01:59:15

Pastor Bill Shishko, host of a Visit to the Pastors Study radio program, and domestic missionary with Reformation Metro New York, which is a ministry of the

01:59:27

Orthodox Presbyterian denomination. And we look forward to seeing Bill again face -to -face and hearing him bless the

01:59:36

Iron Sharpens Iron listeners in the ministry with his gifts that God has given him.

01:59:42

We thank everybody who have been sending in financial gifts lately to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:59:49

Please keep it coming if you can afford to do so. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater