April 12, 2017 Show with Ken Samples on “A World of Difference: Putting Christian Truth Claims to the Worldview Test”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.

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So one man sharpens another Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now, here's our host Chris Arnton Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth We're listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 12th of April 2017 and today we have returning to iron sharpens iron a dear old friend going back to the late 1980s

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Kenneth our samples philosopher theologian former senior research consultant and correspondence editor editor at the

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Christian Research Institute Otherwise known as CRI former co -host of the

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Bible Answer Man radio broadcast current senior research scholar at reasons to believe author of Christian endgame seven truths that change the world and more he is

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The leader of reason to believe straight thinking podcast host of the

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Reflections blog he's a speaker at universities and churches worldwide a frequent quest guest on radio programs such as the

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Frank Sontag show issues, etc and Stand to reason and by the way, Ken You've got to get your crack team over at reasons to believe to add iron sharpens iron to that list

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And right that goes at the front of the list. That's right and an adjunct professor at Biola University he's a member of the evangelical philosophical society and the evangelical theological society and the

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International Society of Christian apologetics we are discussing today his book a world of difference

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Putting Christian truth claims to the world view test and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio

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Ken samples Hey, Chris, it's really good to be with you. I really appreciate these

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Times we've had together the last few weeks and consider it a real privilege to be with you in your audience

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And you got a great show. So keep up the good work Now obviously it would be

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I think weird if I completely glossed something over here It is actually very providential that you were

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Scheduled to be on the iron sharpens iron radio program today long before either of us knew of your former colleague

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Hank Hanegraaff converting to Eastern Orthodoxy and being welcomed into Into membership in a local

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Eastern Orthodox congregation. It would be kind of weird if I just skipped over that and didn't even mention anything about it

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This is something that has been verified it's not a rumor It's not gossip big and Hank is going public with it.

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And by the way, I want to let our listeners know that tomorrow Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega ministries is going to be

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Playing or broadcasting Clips of Hank Hanegraaff's own words from the

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Bible Answer Man over the last two days in which he goes into detail about his conversion and so One thing if you know

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James White He does not go by hearsay or rumor. He goes by the very words of the people that he critiques or debates and So he will be he will be taking the very words of Hank Hanegraaff and responding to them

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Tomorrow on the dividing line, which is a program that That James White hosts so you could listen to that the website for Alpha Omega ministries is a o m i n org

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A o m i n org and you know what you could do if his show is live during my show

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Then you could just listen to his show or watch his show because it's on on YouTube after it's over You can watch you could listen to me live and listen to James Afterwards, but we don't we don't ever know.

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In fact, James doesn't ever know when he is going to do his program He used to have a set time Every week when he did this when he did the dividing line, but he no longer has as any set time so the website again is a o m i n org for Alpha and Omega ministries and you can find out how to Watch the dividing line because it is a

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YouTube Presentation as well as an audio presentation, but you are a former colleague in fact,

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I guess you could say you were an employee of Hank Hanegraaff and I Like I must say that the

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Bible Answer Man was for many years a great blessing to me It cut my teeth on a lot of controversial issues perhaps even added to my own desire to be a talk radio host

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Although I would never in a million years claim to be a Bible Answer Man I would

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I have Bible Answer Men on my show like you but I would never go solo like Hank does because Hank although I think he is seriously wrong

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Hank is a far more brilliant man than I am but this

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News came as quite a bit of shock to a lot of people not so much of a shock to others

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But let's hear your opinion on this and I don't know I don't even know how long it's been since you've actually had personal contact with Hank But if you could just give us your own reaction to it

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Yeah, Chris, I worked at the Christian Research Institute for seven years.

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I was hired during the tenure of Walter Martin Walter Martin was one of evangelicals leading scholars in the area of new religious movements cults and religious sects real expert on Mormonism Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.

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I worked with Walter for about three years and Walter died far too young.

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He was only 60 years old, which seems Now that I'm getting close to that age seems very very young Hank Hanegraaff then became the president of The Christian Research Institute and I worked under Hank for a couple of years before I left and Was working in my own ministry called the

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Augustan Fellowship. Yes, I remember later Later joining the staff at Reasons to Believe I share with you the

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Bit of a concern of the title the Bible Answer Man in my view There's only been really one

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Bible Answer Man, and that was Walter Martin. I think he was extraordinary individual who had an amazing knowledge of the

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Bible and Walter really fired me up. He was really my first Christian teacher.

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I used to attend his class I'm probably doing what I do now as a

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Christian scholar and apologist really because of Walter Martin and I owe him a great debt of gratitude

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Hank was different. I mean he was not a scholar Hank was a layperson and Therefore, you know took the

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Bible Answer Man more from the point of view of an informed layman informed layman with a it would seem to be a photographic memory of Scripture, though I mean, maybe that's an exaggeration to you, but it seemed to have an uncanny

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Ability to Recite Scripture without even looking it up. Yeah, Hank you know

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Hank before he came to CRI was involved in an a organization you might even call ministry that was emphasized memorization and particularly memorization of Scripture That's right.

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Hank is a very bright fellow and Has a real passion for Scripture Hank has changed his views quite a bit and you know,

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I say it with all due respect I think because Hank was somewhat of a layman that he made changes.

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I mean You know, he moved from old earth created young earth creationism to old earth creationism a view that I hold

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But he also changed his views on eschatology a couple times I think he was more dispensational pre -millennial and then became very committed to strong preterist view

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And you know had other changes. I mean he came out of a reformed background. His father was a

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Dutch Calvinist and Hank embraced a more Evangelical Arminian I think faith.

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In fact Hank was raised in the CRC the Christian Reformed Church, right? That's right.

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I Being a Calvinist myself a card -carrying Calvinist I used to talk with Hank's father and you know, we would talk about the distinctives of the

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Reformed faith and The contrast in you know, the

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Arminian or Wesleyan tradition You know, was I surprised by it?

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Yes Obviously anytime a major evangelical leader

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Changes his branch of Christendom, you know, that's a significant thing a few years ago.

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I had a friend Frank Beckwith still remains a friend Frank was the president of the

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Evangelical Theological Society and Embraced Catholicism now Frank and I both grew up Catholic But you know

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Frank returned to the Roman Catholic faith. So things like this happen and they even happen among, you know, high visible evangelical thinkers

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But it's not a small thing to move from historic Protestantism to Eastern Orthodoxy And I would say a couple things

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I would say first of all that there's some really good books out there that maybe your audience might be interested in There is first of all a book written by an

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Orthodox scholar that kind of introduces Orthodoxy and I like it. It's Timothy Ware I like it because you get it from the horse's mouth, so to speak

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There's also a couple books that critique Eastern Orthodoxy from a Protestant point of view.

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I like Robert Latham's book He's a Presbyterian It's entitled Through Western Eyes, Eastern Orthodoxy a

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Reformed Perspective Latham I think is very fair and careful but lays out the common ground that that Protestants have with Orthodox Folk but also points out, you know, some of the critical differences and what's at stake.

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I like that book very much Latham is a careful scholar And he's fair -minded.

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I like that. He talks about common ground as well as Differences. There's another book that came out a couple years ago called

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Three Views on Eastern Orthodoxy and Evangelicalism I like those kind of books because I like to hear people argue different positions and I know

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Michael Horton represents one of those positions and he is a solid guy from Westminster You know,

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Chris, these are critically important issues, I mean we talk about, you know, areas of agreement, we talk about maybe areas of difference, and then we talk about the areas where I think you have, you know, the sharpest focus of difference and Let me just maybe enumerate some of those things

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I think the real substantive theological differences found among Evangelical Protestants and Eastern Orthodox Probably could be enumerated in five points.

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One would be the church's supreme authority Is it scripture alone or is it scripture and tradition?

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Two, the specifics of justification by faith. Are we justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone?

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Or does it come through a sacramental grace, through faith in Christ, but then completed in works of loving obedience?

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The nature of the sacraments, the liturgy, and worship would be a third point I think the extent of sin and the assurance of salvation is a critical issue between the

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Eastern Church and Protestant Christianity And then the fifth would be the veneration of Saints And Mary, that is an issue

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And you can recognize that some of the differences that an Evangelical Protestant will have with Eastern Orthodoxy Are also some of the differences that Protestants would have with Roman Catholics But I do want to make this point,

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Chris, and I think it's a very important one And frankly, I think I held this error for a long time I used to think that Eastern Orthodoxy was just kind of an

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Eastern version of Catholicism It's not. It is a distinct branch of Christendom And there are times, amazingly, where Orthodoxy agrees with Protestants more than with Catholics So I think it's fair to say most of the time

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Orthodox and Catholics agree in indifference with Protestants, but You know, it's a big issue.

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Yes, I used to work with Hank And in fact at one point he was my boss We always had differences

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Were you the only theologically reformed person at the time, at least on the air?

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With CRI? There may have been other employees there that had behind -the -scenes jobs, but as far as somebody with a

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Role that had you actually being a part of a public broadcast and so on Were you the only other reformed guy?

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The only reformed guy at all, I should say? I think so. There were, you know, after Walter's death, there were a couple of us that Kind of were on a panel

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Craig Hawkins initially was the person that was doing the Bible Answer Man, and he did it for a couple years after Martin's death

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Later, Rob Bowman, Ron Rhodes, myself, Paul Carden were involved in a bit more of a panel

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Approach, and I preferred that because quite frankly, I wouldn't want anybody to call me the

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Bible Answer Man I'm a diligent student of God's Word, but I don't know that I know enough to be considered with that kind of title

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Ron Rhodes and Rob Bowman, I would say were moderately

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Calvinistic, you know, maybe I don't particularly like to, you know Designate Reformed theology as just the five points, but I I think that Ron and Rob would have been more moderate.

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I think I was the most outspoken Reformed person to do the Bible Answer Man.

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Yeah, I from my memory. I don't recall Ron Rhodes Having much of a affinity with Calvinism, but I may be just Misremembering those things.

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I think he would say he was a maybe a four -pointer kind of a dispensational

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You know moderately Calvinistic theology, right? Well, I don't want to belabor this because this is not our subject for today, and I don't know if you would consider yourself

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Any kind of an expert on Eastern Orthodoxy, you probably know a lot more than I do though but The the issues that I that I've heard

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That would be most clear in setting them apart from Rome or even

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Protestants is That they are not systematized in their theology in a very clear and concise way there like for instance you can very clearly see a sharp contrast between Rome and Protestantism when you go to the

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Council of Trent and you especially read the anathemas you can see What they are standing for that would be different in a very clear and a hundred and eighty degree different way from the

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Protestant Reformers and the heirs of the Protestant Reformers who agreed with their forefathers in the faith who agree today with their forefathers in the faith, but there's a lot more mystery involved and There is a deep emphasis of the cross

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With more of an emphasis on the incarnation of Christ when it comes to the atonement. Am I right with that?

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Yeah, I I would say this Chris. I would say there are positive features in all the branches of Christendom I think the positive features in Eastern Orthodoxy is a real continuity with church history certainly a

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Trinitarian and Incarnational focus and I think all branches of Christendom have have been influenced positively by the councils that And most of them happened within an

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Eastern context And I think you could say positively that the Orthodox have it suffered a lot.

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They took on Islam they have suffered from the Communists Yet they remain

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Very dedicated. I think that Some of the distinctive features the filioque does the does the spirit proceed only from the father or from the father?

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And the son filioque is a Latin word meaning and the son. That's a difference between East and West the focus on salvation in Eastern Orthodoxy is is more

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Christus Victor rather than Justification or penal substitution that is that Christ has

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Won over against the evil forces of the world and even scripture and tradition

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I mean, this is my thinking on the subject and informed by some of my reading of Orthodox sources as well as reformed that Evaluating critique it.

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I I think that when it comes to scripture and tradition I think the Roman Catholic Church places tradition above scripture.

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So the the teaching office is central Protestants can't interpret scripture because they don't have the authority to do so and to do so properly

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So in my view the Catholic Church puts tradition above scripture the

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Protestants put scripture above tradition and we appropriately think that's so because Scripture is the only word of God as valuable as tradition is

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It is subordinate to the Word of God. I think the Orthodox put them side by side

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And so again, I make the point that while Orthodox would probably on most points agree more

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With the Roman Church than with the Protestant Church. There are times where they are distinct and so that's represented in Christus Victor Phileo quay, but it's also represented in the use of icons in various other non three -dimensional images

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That's why you don't see statues and so forth and of course they disagree with Rome on the papacy

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That's a great point, yes, and I'm glad you brought it back I mean again there are differences about The authority in terms of the

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Pope and the Patriarchs and So it's a mistake and I held that mistake for a long time because I was uninformed

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Orthodoxy is a third branch of Christendom with some of their own unique ideas and believe and Obviously the crucial issue that surpasses all is

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How you are made right with God and Yeah, and if Paul the

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Apostle did not view the Judaizers as just erring brethren or as true brethren with some misunderstandings or some differences he viewed them as Individuals who are to be anathematized who are accursed and the only thing that we are aware of from the scriptures is that they

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Insisted on circumcision when one were to what to convert to Christianity we don't see any difference on their view of the deity of Christ We don't see any difference on their

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Understanding of a triune Godhead. We don't see any of any differences at all

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Substantially other than that that issue. So if Paul the Apostle who is being guided

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Infallibly when he wrote scripture when he wrote things that were to be inscripturated when he

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Brought the God -breathed words of our Lord into print if he

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Considered the Judaizers as false teachers to be accursed

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Are we to take the issue of justification by faith alone? Through grace alone or we saw or by grace alone through faith alone

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I should say are we to take that any less seriously than the Apostle? well, you raise

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I think a very important critical point and Again, it relates to the topic of salvation in orthodoxy.

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They approach it from the point of view of deification They talk about theosis so the idea that That there's an attainment to the likeness or union with God whereas Protestants emphasize a judicial element

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Justification by faith and we separate that from sanctification because we do believe that the Holy Spirit transforms us

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But that's not a basis of our being justified. That's exactly right. And You know

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And I think that I think an appropriate way to think through these issues in my mind Chris is to say look there are real

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I Would place Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism in a different camp than I would

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Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons or Christian science largely because This is

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Christendom that we're dealing with and regardless of whether we think the Catholics and the Orthodox have moved away from Scripture or moved away from these elements.

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They do affirm the Trinity. They do affirm the two natures of Christ There's real historic

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Doctrine that they share in common with us Nevertheless, you you raise a point and you're very good at putting your finger on it, and I applaud you for it

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Paul makes statements particularly in Galatians, but also in Romans that talks about salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ and He talks about the you know, what's at stake?

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And what's at stake is, you know, the very gospel. And so these are not small issues.

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These are not minor issues I have Orthodox friends Catholic friends that I like respect we have lots of discussion and give -and -take

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My Catholic friends and my Orthodox friends will often say Ken. I can't say I'm saved.

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I hope to be saved and I would say on the basis of the

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New Testament Particularly the writings of Paul, but not just Paul that I have been justified past tense

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And from my own reformed point of view my understanding of Scripture My security is in Christ.

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And so these are these are very very important issues and it's important that There is dialogue discussion and debate.

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I mean one thing I enjoy about James White is Not only is he very good at articulating these ideas, but he's very skilled in Bringing these issues out in in debate.

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And so, you know Truth is critically important. I think to all thoughtful and reflective people and When when a major evangelical leader changes his branch of Christendom, that's a big deal

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And so I'm not surprised that this has gotten quite a bit of attention Yes, and I would like to know

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I mean, I'm sure that's probably not monolithic the the answer to this question but I'd like to know the

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Eastern Orthodox opinion of Protestants who actually adhere to Reformation principles regarding justification and so forth then regarding the rejection of veneration of icons and a rejection of veneration of Mary and the

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Saints and so on I wonder What their opinion of us is I mean very often we are very often.

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We are the ones Those Protestants I should say Who are historic?

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Protestants who actually believe confessionally in the the

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Doctrines and the watchwords and the pillars and the battle cries of the Reformation We are the ones that are looked like Looked upon as bullies and as bigots and yet the

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Council of Trent as far as the Church of Rome is concerned The Council Trent still stands.

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They're the ones that anathema anathematized me long before I was born and An anathema, of course, they have redefined modern modern

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Roman Catholic apologists have redefined what that means. They've softened the blow But let's keep in mind in the day and age

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When those anathemas were declared there were people being tortured to death before being under the anathema if they wouldn't recant those beliefs if they were in certain positions of public notoriety or whatever, but This is these are not issues to be glossed over like Well, I prefer not to use incense and pictures on the walls and in my church

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These are these are far more serious, aren't they? They are and in fact, that's one reason

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I recommend the Orthodox Church book by Tennessee where he is a bishop and He talks about how

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Orthodox relate to Protestants and to Catholics and kind of gives you You know some insight

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I I think Chris I try to practice what I call the golden rule of apologetics

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I try to treat other people's beliefs the way I want mine treated that is I try to be very careful about Representing the

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Catholic view the Orthodox view because I want them to be careful in representing my view and I try to read their work so that I can get it from the horse's mouth so that I can have a

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Greater understanding and so if some of your listeners are interested in reading a book by an

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Orthodox theologian who kind of briefly introduces the faith Timothy wears book is readable and I think it it is

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It's ecumenical in the sense that there is a real desire to to have some kind of dialogue and communication

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But your your point is it's a critical one truth and doctrine

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Should not be small things and and by the way if I can critique The evangelical world for just a moment and I do it with I do it with respect

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I do it with love and humility because I have been part of the evangelical

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Protestant community for many years and I know many wonderful Christians But I think one of the reasons that people convert to orthodoxy and to Catholicism Chris is because the evangelicalism has weaknesses and Part of that weakness is a tenaciousness of getting down to Christian doctrine.

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In fact, I would like to Continue that thread a little bit. Of course, we are eventually going to get back to the main reason we

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Scheduled your interview is to discuss a world of difference but I do want to continue a bit on that thread that you just mentioned about one of the reasons why

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People are being lured into not only Eastern Orthodoxy, but Rome and some perhaps other religious groups

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That have their root in the failures of evangelicalism and perhaps even

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Evangelicalism becoming something altogether different than the Reformation and the

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Reformers ever intended But I would like to receive Questions from you the listeners we already have a number of them that have come in And thankfully they are not all on the hank anagraph

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And our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com

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Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence If you live outside of the good old

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This is Chris Barnes and if you just tuned us in our guest today is my dear old friend

39:20

Over 20 years of friendship that I've had with Kenneth our samples and He is going to be eventually discussing his book a world of difference putting truth

39:31

Putting Christian truth claims to the worldview test, but we have been briefly beginning a discussion we hope to be brief on the recent conversion of Hank Hanegraaff to Eastern Orthodoxy and What is and we are now going to be just discussing a little bit.

39:50

What is drawing people from? evangelicalism into groups like Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism and a lot of it has to do with Evangel now obviously

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There could be very wrong reasons Why people leave evangelicalism?

40:08

Because of just utter apostasy they have abandoned truths Biblical truths that are clear that the

40:16

Reformers held to and that the reformers championed and brought to the surface of Christian life after have been buried for centuries with superstition and ritual and and works righteous rules and regulations and so on But in fact you could be you could convert from Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy Orthodoxy to Evangelical Protestantism for the wrong reason

40:51

You know, you might not really be coming to faith in Christ you there may be no real actual rebirth in your life

40:57

You just like the fact that the church Folk are much more gregarious and outgoing and give you a big hug every

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Sunday. And then yet maybe they have potluck Just lunches there frequently and you just love that but What was what were some of what are some of the things lacking in modern evangelicalism that have drawn people from Evangelicalism into the arms of Rome and Eastern Orthodoxy and other groups in your opinion

41:28

Yeah, again, I think that this is an important Question Chris and I again

41:34

I my criticism of the of evangelicalism is is not motivated by You know being harsh it is merely that I think that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are attractive to particular

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Evangelicals who see weaknesses and you know This is the 500th anniversary of the

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Protestant Reformation in October. They'll celebrate 1517

42:03

Luther nailing the 95 theses on the church Wittenberg door I think that from for a long time after Luther and Calvin and the

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Protestant Reformers I think that the word evangelical by and large meant

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Protestant to be an Evangelical was to affirm the great truth of the Protestant Reformation the great solos

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Scripture is the supreme authority Justification by faith sola fide sola gratia sola deo gloria, you know, these were deeply connected within the evangelical world and so Evangelical comes from the

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Greek word one galley on meaning gospel centered However, I think evangelicalism is is far less connected to the

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Reformation today. I think it is It's very diverse.

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In fact, there are times where I'm not sure what the word evangelical mean But by the way, can you may be shocked to hear this or maybe you wouldn't be shocked

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When I when I organized my very well actually wasn't my first bait debate that I organized but it was among the first Of the

43:18

Catholic debates that I organized one of them was on solo script Torah And when I went to a local evangelical church

43:26

With posters that the pastor had agreed beforehand to allow me to bring there

43:32

So he could hang them up and promote the event the pastor of this evangelical church looked at the sign and said so lost script to What does that mean?

43:46

I Think some evangelicals become attracted to the

43:56

Orthodox tradition in the Roman Catholic tradition because evangelicals often don't have a solid continuity with church history church councils

44:08

Church creed I think some people feel in their evangelical world that they don't have a deep continuity with Christian history

44:17

I think also there are evangelicals at times that don't have a strong Trinitarian focus or incarnational focus and say whatever you will in criticism of the

44:30

Eastern Orthodox Church But they have a strong focus on the importance of the

44:35

Trinity and the Incarnation I would also say that You know that there are people that They go to a church and they don't feel like there is a depth to the worship to the

44:53

Taking of the Lord's Supper Baptism, I think some people are attracted to these more liturgical branches of Christendom because they feel that there is a depth

45:06

And I might say this and again I I don't say this because I want to beat up on my own tradition because I do consider myself

45:15

Protestant I do consider myself an evangelical my theological orientation is reformed

45:22

I prefer the Anglican side of that, but I will tell you this Chris I think there are times the evangelical world does not emphasize the life of the mind the life of study the importance of doctrine and This is hurting our tradition.

45:41

I don't think we're ready to collapse but you know some parts of Protestantism I Think are stronger in these areas that I've mentioned

45:54

I think the Lutheran the Reformed the Anglican parts of the Baptist tradition.

46:00

I think are very strong in Emphasizing the elements of the Reformation and I think there will be people who will continue to move to They'll swim across the

46:12

Tiber to Rome or they'll they'll go back to the eastern part of the the world to to Athens Or other areas that have been central to orthodoxy and so maybe maybe a good thing about all of this is

46:28

That the branches of Christendom tend to challenge each other and that challenge is not always a bad thing

46:36

Quite frankly, I I learned a lot when I hear some of these Protestants Catholics Eastern Orthodox debates

46:44

I appreciate them and I appreciate the people that are very skilled in doing it.

46:50

And as I mentioned James White is one person that I always enjoy listening to Yes, and one thing that I know just because of my own personal experience having conversations and Friendly disagreements and sometimes heated disagreements with friends of mine

47:11

Primarily those who've become Roman Catholic because I don't know that many Eastern Orthodox individuals

47:18

At least at any in any meaningful way. I guess I should change that but There is an attraction to the idea that Protestant Protestantism is wrong and Rome is true and Perhaps even

47:37

Eastern Orthodoxy is true Because of their connection with the ancient church, but the mistake they're making at least in those cases is

47:49

That ancient isn't always ancient enough number one and heresies can be ancient there were there there are heresies that were brought up in the scriptures that were cropping up in the church while the

48:04

Apostles were still writing what would eventually be canon and So to think something is bona fide as being

48:14

The the real article genuine true and so on just because it's ancient that is not that does not put a seal of approval

48:21

On anything and that in fact, I think that's a mistake that some of our brethren in the fundamentalist

48:29

Circles have they wouldn't use the terms ancient necessarily, but they would talk about good old time religion and they think that the modern evangelicals are wrong because They don't go back to the good old days and the good old days for the fundamentalists very often

48:44

Don't go go any further back before the 1800s and they think That the the roots of dispensationalism and so on is the good old religion, but that's you know less than 200 years, you know, so number one as I said

49:02

Old isn't always old enough and number two old does not a seal of biblical orthodoxy pardon the pun

49:11

I Think I think you make a very important point and that is that the orthodox tradition in the

49:19

Catholic tradition Consistently emphasized that they are Early, and they are the original and that Protestantism is kind of a

49:30

Johnny come lately Late in coming to the party so to speak But the real question there is is not

49:39

Whether we have a connection to church history and don't get me wrong I think church history is critical and I think that frankly

49:47

Protestants evangelicals Can learn about the importance of church history from the other branches of Christendom?

49:54

but the question is what was the apostolic teaching and You know quite frankly

50:01

Luther and Calvin were Catholics and They came to a position where they were convinced by the reading studying and reflection upon Scripture and church history that the church had departed from The Apostles teaching it at some critical junctures and even the patristics even the teachings of the

50:24

Fathers That and that's right there. You make a very important point and it's not a small point at all

50:31

Heresy begins very early. I mean docetism Gnosticism Pelagianism these very

50:40

Brutal Arianism these these heresies that can make waste of a person's faith began very early

50:49

I think that You know going back to the councils going back to Ancient Christianity is always a beneficial thing

51:00

But the question is if Scripture is the supreme authority Then it judges even councils it judges even church traditions and So, you know while it's true that people sometimes leave evangelical

51:17

Protestantism and become Orthodox or become Catholic. It's also true that many people have left the

51:25

Orthodox and Catholic traditions and become Protestant and you and I are two of those people we grew up Catholic But because of our study of Scripture And because of our deep belief in You know the person of Christ and what he did on the cross we

51:48

We were persuaded to become Protestant So it's important to keep that in mind and I might add a bit because of a miracle of the

51:55

Holy Spirit in our hearts Absolutely, yeah, that's right. Our faith is Trinitarian and The Spirit is the ultimate evangelist

52:05

Well, we are gonna come back from the break this is our midway break our break that's a bit longer to keep our program in alignment with Grace life radio 90 .1

52:18

FM in Lake City, Florida Who needs our program in a certain format? So we're gonna be going to our midway break right now

52:25

And when we return we are going to be discussing a world of difference putting Christian truth claims to the worldview test by our guest

52:33

Kenneth Richard samples if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

52:39

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and we do have folks already waiting

52:45

Patiently, I hope you're waiting patiently to have your questions asked and answered and we will get to you one by one as soon as we can and We look forward to hearing from more of you and your questions for Ken samples when we return

53:01

Our email address again is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence

53:10

If you live outside of the USA, I would absolutely love to hear from anybody either who is east eastern

53:16

Orthodox or agrees with the move That Hank Hanegraaff has made maybe you're celebrating with him that he did this.

53:24

I would love to hear from you I'd love to hear from you if you defend his decision, even if you're a Protestant I don't only want people who agree with us to join us on the air with questions

53:34

Although I hope that eventually everybody agrees with us As far as the show is concerned.

53:39

I want to have some give -and -take with even people who disagree. We'll be right back. God willing with More of Ken samples right after these messages.

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01:06:31

This is Chris Arnzen If you just tuned us in our guest today is Kenneth Richard samples

01:06:36

And we are going to be discussing his book a world of difference putting Christian truth claims to the worldview test

01:06:43

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Coming up that I hope that many of you will attend We have coming up right here in Pennsylvania the

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01:09:53

April 28th through the 30th at Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania, which is a suburb of Philadelphia and speakers include

01:10:04

Daniel Doriani Richard Phillips and Carl Truman For more details go to Alliance net org

01:10:11

Alliance net org. The theme of this conference is Reformation recovering the essence of the gospel

01:10:20

Once again, so that's April 28th Through the 30th and then also overlapping that so you got a pick one that you're either

01:10:29

Closer to or that you want to attend more but my dear friends at New York apologetics

01:10:38

Anthony Eugenio and his colleague Nick Mitchell They are having their

01:10:44

New York apologetics conference Dare to defend is the title of that conference

01:10:53

That conference series that they're having this is one of the Conferences in that series and the theme is will you survive the culture?

01:11:03

Participants include Greg Kochel who by the way Ken samples Greg Kochel spoke very highly of you very recently on my program

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Greg Kochel of stand to reason and Frank Turek and Mary Jo Sharp are the three

01:11:18

Speakers at this conference and that will be held Friday April 28th 7 to 9 p .m.

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And Saturday April 29th 9 a .m. To 4 p .m At the Smithtown Christian School in Suffolk County, Long Island.

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If you want more information go to New York apologetics calm New York apologetics calm and If you go to any of these events, please always make sure that you

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Let the folks know that are running the conference that you heard about it through iron sharpens iron

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Radio last but not least if you are a pastor We hope that you attend the

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United States ministers conference that the banner of truth is conducting in Elizabethtown Pennsylvania and specifically at the

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Elizabethtown College the banner of truth is well known as being a

01:12:15

Ministry that publishes some of the very finest of reformed works from the past and present

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They're probably even more well known for the the treasures from the past that they have brought back into print and They have this conference that conference that's coming up and any church leader,

01:12:35

I believe qualifies for this event May 30th through June 1st

01:12:42

Speakers include dr. Joel Beeky Jeff Thomas William van der Waard Mark Johnston Jonathan master

01:12:50

Carlton Wynn and Ian Hamilton and over half of those speakers have been guests on iron sharpens iron radio some of them multiple times and for more details on registering for the banner of truth

01:13:04

United States ministers conference go to Banner of truth org as banner of truth org click on events and then click on the

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US ministers conference because they also have conferences in the UK and Since of course we do have listeners in the

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UK If you want to go to one of those conferences click on the UK ministers conference and they have four of them

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Listed in different parts of the United Kingdom So whatever area that you live in In fact, they even have an

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Australian banner conference held every two years but We hope that you will mention iron sharpens iron radio whenever you go to any of these conferences if you do and I hope to see you at Not only the

01:13:53

Philadelphia conference on reform theology, but also at the banner of truth US ministers conference Now we are back to discuss with Ken samples his book a world of difference putting

01:14:04

Christian truth claims to the world you test and Ken Please give us a definition of what you mean what

01:14:14

Christian theologians and philosophers mean by the term worldview Yeah, very important topic

01:14:24

There is a German word Weldon shown of which our

01:14:29

English word worldview is derived and The way to think about a worldview is that it's your big picture view of reality

01:14:38

It's it's your it's a grand narrative. That is it's your story

01:14:44

About the meaning of life the meaning of the world And everybody has a worldview

01:14:51

Some are more detailed Some are more rational than others, but all of us look at the world.

01:14:59

We try to make sense of life and The human condition within it.

01:15:05

So that's that's the the meaning of the word worldview another way of thinking about it is it's our view of the world and life and Let me just read a couple of commendations for this book you have written

01:15:20

Kim riddle Barger who will be familiar to many of our listeners who listen to the white horse in Radio program hosted by dr.

01:15:28

Michael Horton and Kim riddle Barger and Ken Jones and Rod Rosenblatt the

01:15:35

Endorsement that Kim has written is one of my biggest concerns for Christians struggling to make their way through the intellectual challenges challenges of our age

01:15:44

Is that they often don't have the basic categories to think biblically about their own faith

01:15:49

Ken samples a world of difference will give them those categories JP Moreland distinguished professor of philosophy at Biola University Says with compelling insight into scripture history science and theology a world of difference will challenge and strengthen your beliefs

01:16:06

Christians can no longer afford to be ignorant of how to think and see the world in light of their worldview and alternative worldviews a world of difference is the right book at the right time

01:16:19

So we hope that if you don't win a book today that you will eventually purchase this book from reasons to believe but we let me go to a couple of our of Our listener questions that are relevant to our subject

01:16:38

To those of you remember if you want to know more about the Hank Hanegraaff conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy listen to Dr.

01:16:48

James R. White's Dividing line a broadcast which you can listen to or watch on YouTube tomorrow

01:16:56

He never knows when he is going to do that program typically until the day that he does it But you could go to a o m.

01:17:02

I n org to find out a o for Alpha and Omega m. I n for ministries org a

01:17:09

Hey, oh m. I n org. That's a o m. I n org and that's tomorrow James will give a thorough critique of Hank's Conversion in Hank's own words because he is going to be airing the relevant

01:17:26

Broadcasts that have been very recently aired on the Bible Answer Man where Hank in his own words describes why he converted but we have

01:17:36

Joe in Slovenia who says dear brother Chris Thanks so very much for having brother

01:17:41

Ken samples addressing this most important topic for our edification I'm very interested in the criteria or indicators that were used to reach the conclusions of the recent

01:17:52

Barna research Which indicates that less than one in ten evangelical Christians hold a biblical worldview

01:17:59

What are those elements of the Christian worldview that one in ten evangelical Christians are missing or mistaken about Thanks again for your commitment to sharpening us daily.

01:18:09

Well, I think that that's a very good question to start the ball rolling with your book Yeah, I appreciate

01:18:15

Joe. I remember some of his questions. He's asked previously You know Chris some of these some of these

01:18:24

Studies that have come out either by the Barna group or by the Pew report that kind of look at Christians broadly or evangelical

01:18:34

Christians particularly sometimes are quite concerning and You know, we've heard over the last number of years

01:18:43

Many young people who grow up in the evangelical faith go away to college and and walk away from the faith

01:18:52

In my book a world of difference I talk about a Barna survey in which he

01:18:59

Insists and Barna is himself identifies himself as an evangelical Christian. He says that You know, maybe as low as one out of ten

01:19:11

Evangelicals actually hold a Christian worldview a biblical biblically oriented worldview and what we mean by that is

01:19:21

You know a worldview is is made up of a cluster of really important beliefs your view of God Your view of the universe or or the cosmos your your view of human being your view of knowledge

01:19:39

Your new your view of values and morality Barna would insist that The evangelical

01:19:49

Church falls down in many respects on that and I alluded to that earlier I think of Your flock

01:19:56

Pelican who was the great historian of Christianity at Yale Interestingly for today's topic

01:20:03

Pelican was a Missouri Synod Lutheran for much of his life Late in life converted to Eastern Orthodoxy his quotation in one of his most important books on The history of Christianity.

01:20:16

He says the church is always more than a school. Of course it is. It's a place we worship

01:20:21

It's a place we receive the Lord's Supper. It's a place we fellowship, but here's

01:20:26

Pelican's line The church is always more than a school, but it can't be less than a school

01:20:32

I think that our evangelical churches are less than school

01:20:37

The church should be a place where there's a lot of learning going on Learning about the

01:20:43

Bible learning about the Christian worldview learning about how Christianity differs from atheistic naturalism or Islamic theism or pantheistic

01:20:56

Hinduism and that's the critical idea What's your view of God?

01:21:01

How do you view the universe? What's your view of morality? How do people know things and then of course

01:21:09

Unpackaging our view of God gets into our theology our view of the Trinity our view of Christ as the divine human

01:21:18

Savior and ultimately to our view of salvation, so Barna raises concern and that's why

01:21:25

I wrote the book I want to put a book in the hands of my evangelical Christian friends that will help them understand

01:21:32

Here's what a worldview is Here's how we evaluate them. Here's how the

01:21:38

Christian worldview differs from the competitors in the marketplace of ideas

01:21:44

That might interest you To know Ken. I mean you may know this already But it's interesting that you're a slave

01:21:51

Pelican who went from Lutheran to Eastern Orthodoxy he also had a book that he was clearly indicating that church history proves my understanding of baptism being a reformed

01:22:05

Baptist he seemed to be admitting very clearly from his Historic resources that the early practice of baptism was the immersion in water of believers

01:22:16

But anyway, this is a little trivia that I thought I'd you know, I would also tell you

01:22:22

Chris interestingly enough Pelican when he was a Lutheran theologian wrote a book in 1960 entitled the riddle of Roman Catholicism.

01:22:32

Yeah, I think that is a powerful Critique of the

01:22:37

Catholic Church and some of the implications in there would apply to Orthodoxy. It is a

01:22:43

When I debate Catholics, I often quote pelicans critique of Catholicism Yeah, in fact when

01:22:49

I start first started to organize the Catholic Protestant debates with dr. James R white

01:22:54

I remember purchasing a used copy of that book because it was out of print But by the way, thank you

01:23:01

Joe in Slovenia and you have won a free copy of a world of difference by Kenneth Richard samples

01:23:08

Compliments of reasons to believe and also compliments of our friends at the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV BBS comm

01:23:16

CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service comm so have your daughter daughter.

01:23:23

Well, I bet that was a real Revelation of my New York background your daughter.

01:23:29

I don't even know how that came out of my mouth have your daughter Keep her eye open in the mail for that because I know that you have gracefully given us an

01:23:39

American address to have that book shipped to spare Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service of the enormous shipping costs overseas

01:23:48

So keep listening to iron sharpens iron and keep spreading the word about our program in Slovenia. We have

01:23:54

Daniel in Bakersfield, California How does your guest define a biblical worldview?

01:24:00

Well, we already did that and how would you how would he compare it to that of an atheist or an or an agnostic?

01:24:07

Worldview I've heard certain atheists and agnostics say they have no worldview Well, nobody can have no worldview, but in fact,

01:24:15

I'm sure you would agree. Can you cannot pigeonhole a worldview Onto an atheist or an agnostic because they are quite a diverse group of people

01:24:26

It's true. You you know, first of all atheism and agnosticism are not worldviews.

01:24:33

They're denials or Affirmations of doubt about the existence of God the worldview that stands behind Atheism is what we call naturalism and it's the view that the natural physical universe is the only reality

01:24:49

There's no God. There's no supernatural. No angels. No souls So Naturalism would be the worldview

01:24:58

You know Daniel has raised a very good question an important part of my worldview book a world of difference

01:25:05

It's to introduce some ways of testing worldviews. I mean, you know scripture talks about testing things the book of Acts It says that the

01:25:15

Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonians Why because they opened up the

01:25:20

Hebrew Bible and checked to see if what Paul was saying was true Paul says in first Corinthians first Thessalonians 521 test all things hold on to that which is good

01:25:33

John says that don't believe things too quickly, but you know test them evaluate doctrine in my book

01:25:41

I talked about nine worldview tests now not all nine are as important as Particular ones, but here's a couple worldview tests that I think are very critical the first one and I think it really is the most important is

01:25:57

What I would call the coherence test is a particular worldview logically consistent

01:26:03

I mean in the reform tradition, we have an approach to apologetics. We call presuppositionalism tied to people like Cornelius Van Til and represented by Greg Bonson who was a friend of mine and John frame who is a friend of mine.

01:26:20

They will often say that You know the naturalist worldview or the pantheistic worldview that it that it is not coherent that it

01:26:30

Not only is not logically consistent, but it doesn't provide a basis for reason and logic and rationality so if you fail the coherence test then your worldview is dead now if it passes

01:26:45

Then we can begin to ask some other questions that are important. Another worldview test is what

01:26:51

I would call the Explanatory power and scope test So how well does the world view explain the facts of reality and how wide is its range of?

01:27:01

Explanation we call that scope So I mean one of the things that I think Christianity has going for it

01:27:07

Very strongly is the Christianity has a lot of explanatory power. It explains

01:27:13

You know human beings I think incredibly well that humans are kind of this

01:27:19

Enigma of greatness and wretchedness as the The scientist

01:27:26

Blaise Pascal said we're great because we're made in the image of God but wretched because of our fallen

01:27:32

Christianity can explain things Like why the world is here and why it is complex and it can explain things like science and logic

01:27:44

So these are some of the the worldview tests that we can appropriately apply and competing worldviews like atheistic naturalism or Eastern Pantheism that you would find in some forms of Hinduism and Buddhism they they have a hard time kind of fulfilling or Passing these kinds of tests.

01:28:09

And of course what I meant before about Not being able to pigeonhole atheists and agnostics with worldviews is because very often they are very

01:28:21

Inconsistent with that claim of atheism or agnosticism and they very often wind up borrowing elements of the worldview of Christianity and others perhaps but probably primarily

01:28:34

Christianity or at least Judeo -christian worldview because of their their adoption of a moral code

01:28:41

Which is absurd for an atheist or agnostic to have any kind of sense of morality and you even have

01:28:48

Christopher Hitchens the late Christopher Hitchens who was pro -life And he actually abandoned the liberal philosophies that he wants adhere to in fact, he was a

01:29:01

Marxist at one time and Developed an ideology that was far closer to political conservatism than Liberalism even though he was an atheist

01:29:16

So you it's very they're not all alike you that you have for instance you have atheists who believe there's no way

01:29:22

That anyone would have any right to impose Heterosexual Moral ethics upon anyone else but and there are atheists who believe that That homosexuality is at odds with the whole

01:29:39

Darwinian concept of survival of the of the species You know because because that's a that's an obvious reason why that would be true so you really can't there is a multitude of different opinions amongst even those two categories of understanding

01:29:58

I think what we find Chris what I have found in reading talking with atheistic naturalists debating them is

01:30:08

They have a real hard time in their godless worldview of explaining things like reason and rationality

01:30:15

As you mentioned morality objective morality and ultimate meaning to life

01:30:21

But if God exists and if Christianity is true Things like reason and morality and meaning are expected features in a world made by God and so Again, this is kind of the focus of my book of saying look, how do we?

01:30:40

What is the basis of the Christian worldview? What are the features of the Christian worldview and then how do we fairly understand what other people think and how do we?

01:30:51

carefully evaluate them Daniel you have also won a free copy of a world of difference by Kenneth Richard samples and Thank you very much for contributing your question to today's discussion

01:31:03

Keep your eye out in the mail for a package from CV BBS calm that's

01:31:10

CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service Calm CV BBS calm and keep spreading the word about iron sharpens iron in Bakersfield, California and beyond Thank you very much for contributing to the program

01:31:24

We are going to a break right now and perhaps I will read the question before we go to our final break

01:31:31

Because it's fairly lengthy. In fact, what I will do is I'll not only read this to you now, but I'll email you our listeners question

01:31:39

So you could actually read it when we're during a break here Jerry in Charlestown, New Hampshire says do you think it is fair to say that having a healthy fear of the

01:31:50

Lord is the essential starting point? For a biblical worldview it would seem plausible to think so Think so with the numerous quotes in Proverbs that state that the fear of the

01:32:03

Lord is the beginning of wisdom Additionally, it would seem that whatever biblical knowledge one would gain of the world

01:32:08

If it is not rooted in the fear of the Lord It will not be marked by humility worship or dependence upon God's Word Do you think this is a fair assessment?

01:32:18

And if so, what practical steps can we take to cultivate a fear of the Lord in the

01:32:23

American? Evangelical Church and in fact, I'd like to even broaden that to the church globally since we have listeners everywhere in the world in the

01:32:32

Aryan sharpens iron audience So, thank you Jerry We'll have Ken answer that when we return from the break and I'm gonna actually forward this email to Ken But if anybody else would like to join us on the air

01:32:44

With a question for Ken samples now is the time to do it because we're running out of time Our email address is

01:32:50

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Don't go away.

01:32:56

We're going to be right back after these messages with our guest Ken samples and Your questions if you have any and The Behind my computer switched off the area that I have to play these commercials.

01:33:13

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We hope that iron sharpens iron radio blesses you for many years to come Hi, I'm pastor

01:37:04

Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

01:37:11

Eastern Time on Wlie radio www .wlie 540 a .m.

01:37:19

Dot -com We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions

01:37:26

Our time will be lively Useful and I assure you never dull join us this Saturday at 12 noon

01:37:32

Eastern Time For a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back

01:37:38

This is Chris Arnson If you just tuned us in our guest for the last 90 minutes and the following half hour

01:37:45

Has been and will continue to be Kenneth our samples We are discussing his book a world of difference

01:37:51

And if you have any questions now is the time to send them because we're running out of time And our email address is

01:37:57

Chris Arnson at gmail .com and we have Jerry in Charlestown, New Hampshire It says do you think it is fair to say that having a healthy fear of the

01:38:06

Lord is the essential starting point for a biblical Worldview and of course, he asks other things that you have right in front of you in the email

01:38:14

Yeah very good question and I like the

01:38:20

Direction Jerry takes this question, you know, I would say this that You know the the wisdom literature of the

01:38:30

Old Testament, you know Psalms Proverbs Ecclesiastes They often emphasize this fear of the

01:38:38

Lord element fear the reverence respect for God and I think that all of that comes out when we begin to Embrace a biblically based theology where God's Nature and attributes and qualities and personhood are revealed to us and so God possesses all knowledge all

01:39:05

Power is everywhere present. God is holy. He's just good wise sovereign and of course part of that justice and love is

01:39:16

God's wrath and so I certainly think that developing an

01:39:23

Understanding of God a reverence for God and a fear of God I mean most people who speak lightly about things like death and the afterlife or sin

01:39:36

Have not given careful consideration to the holiness of God and to the wrath of God.

01:39:43

So Jerry, I would say I think a way of kind of helping to develop fear and reverence for God is

01:39:51

Through through teaching Particularly, you know the wisdom literature of the

01:39:57

Old Testament Psalms and Proverbs, but but also really unpackaging God and I'll tell you this in Islam Islam does not emphasize the quality of Allah's attributes and personhood.

01:40:13

They emphasize his law what he wants what he demands Whereas in whereas in Jewish and Christian theology

01:40:21

They unpackage the idea of who is this God? What qualities does he possess?

01:40:28

So doctrine and theology are very good at helping Christians develop character virtue

01:40:34

Can't separate what's true from your moral life and so theology and doctrine really count well, thank you

01:40:43

Jerry for the excellent question and You have also won a free copy of a world of difference putting

01:40:50

Christian truth claims to the worldview test by Kenneth Richard samples compliments of reasons to believe and Also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service So keep your eye open in the mail for a package from CV BBS comm

01:41:05

CV for Cumberland Valley BBS For Bible book service comm and we thank Patty and Todd Jennings owner of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service For their loyal support of iron sharpens iron radio and by the way,

01:41:18

Jerry I want to thank you personally for the donation that you recently mailed us here at iron sharpens iron radio and I cannot thank you enough for the generosity

01:41:29

For sending that gift Thank you very much for that and thank you very much for being a regular listener of iron sharpens iron

01:41:36

We have Casey who is originally from the Philippines and now lives in Kannapolis, North Carolina And he says our atheism and Islam the two biggest worldview battles that Western Christians need to be equipped to debunk at this time in history or Are there other religions and worldviews that are slipping into society that haven't been confronted as much?

01:42:03

Well, that's a great question. I really appreciate that question. I I would say this

01:42:09

Casey that that Naturalism again the secular worldview that is is the foundation for an

01:42:17

Atheistic perspective, I think in the Western world in in Western Europe and in North America Naturalism is very strong particularly in the

01:42:28

Academy the university system lots of intellectuals have for various reasons gravitated toward a secular

01:42:38

Naturalistic worldview, of course, we know that Islam has a very big influence by most

01:42:47

Estimates it is the fastest growing of the world's religions In fact, the Pew report said a couple years ago that trends continue by 2050

01:42:56

There'll be approximately 9 billion people in the world 3 billion Christians 3 billion

01:43:01

Muslim and 3 billion others So Islam which is a form of theism Is a major competitor

01:43:10

I would add to that Eastern mysticism in which you have

01:43:15

Hinduism and Buddhism. They are not a small element May not be as influential

01:43:22

In the West as it is in the eastern part of the world But you know you have new age ideas that reflect that and I I guess

01:43:30

I would say this is not a worldview But I think it's it is

01:43:36

Well, I guess I'll put it into a worldview context I think kind of a postmodern perspective.

01:43:43

That is the truth is relative that morality is relative that we cannot have certainty in our belief

01:43:52

I Think that reflects a very important kind of cultural element.

01:43:57

So putting them together naturalism Islamic theism Eastern mystical pantheism and then kind of a secular relativistic form of postmodernism

01:44:11

I think are our biggest competitors in what I call the marketplace of worldview ideas

01:44:19

Thank you very much Casey and you have also won a free copy of a world of difference by Ken sample

01:44:26

So keep your eye open in the mail for that Package from CV bbs .com

01:44:32

CV for Kremlin Valley Bible book service comm one thing that Casey's question made me think of Is that the church perhaps?

01:44:42

has an even greater foe to confront and that is the the global sin

01:44:53

Plaguing humanity and that is the sin of pride the sim the sin of self -righteousness the sin of apathy because There are many people when they see the atrocities the nightmarish blood -curdling

01:45:13

Disgusting Bloodlust of Islam being

01:45:20

Being displayed on our TV and computer screens Daily and in the pages of magazines and newspapers

01:45:29

With the acts of terrorists It is obvious from watching, you know news programming and so on That humanity is lulled into a false sense of righteousness because they think

01:45:45

Well, I'm not like that. I Must be pretty good. I mean, I mean, I must not really have anything to worry about when

01:45:52

I die because I've never I've never even hit anyone I've never even slapped or punched or kicked anyone or shoved anyone let alone

01:46:02

Cut their head off or tortured them So therefore, you know, those are the real evil people that we all have to be concerned about In fact, we don't even have to really care about where they spend eternity

01:46:15

Let them go to hell, but we have to be worried about them Attacking our citizens and we have to be worried about our own personal lives in regard to those people.

01:46:25

But but we as citizens of America or any other Country in the world we are

01:46:35

We are really good people at heart and we really have nothing to fear from any kind of a wrathful

01:46:41

God isn't this this kind of thing that very often happens when you have Overt grotesque immorality and evil

01:46:49

Active in the world and people compare themselves to that rather than to Christ. I Think you hit it on the head

01:46:56

Chris I in teaching courses in the world's religions comparative religions at Biola University Often make the point that there is what we call the religion of the natural man

01:47:07

You know, I'm not as good as Mother Teresa, but I'm not as bad as Osama bin

01:47:13

Laden, so God's gonna cut me some grace because you know, I'm on the curve

01:47:18

I'm not that bad. So I should be okay. You see that in Islam You see it in Zoroastrianism in Judaism Interestingly though, you see it in Christendom.

01:47:31

I you know, I grew up Catholic and we kind of thought that way, you know Not as bad as Hitler and Stalin and Mussolini certainly

01:47:39

I'm not as good as you know, st. Augustine or st. Thomas Aquinas So maybe

01:47:44

I'm I'm in the middle and I'll be okay. Hell is only a place for the really terrible, you know mass murderers

01:47:52

It's reflected. I think at times in all institutional branches of Christendom I've known

01:47:59

Eastern Orthodox who feel that way I've known Protestants who who speak that way rather than recognizing that We are fallen.

01:48:10

We are broken human beings. We are commandment breakers We have missed the mark sin has blinded us.

01:48:17

We are in rebellion to God We don't need a prophet to point a way to being a better person.

01:48:25

We need a Savior We need salvation which can only come through a life death and resurrection of the person of Jesus Christ And so yes, this is a this is a big challenge.

01:48:36

I call it the religion of the natural man I'm you know, I'm not as good as one of the

01:48:42

Saints not as bad as the mass murder So God's gonna cut me some slack and I'll be okay in the afterworld rather than recognizing that God is a perfect holy and just being

01:48:55

Who knows everything about you and You know, there's only one word that should be on your lips

01:49:02

God. Give me grace Give me grace and he does in in the life death and resurrection of the

01:49:10

Lord Jesus Christ Yeah, Christians have to be very careful or should

01:49:15

I say people really have to be very careful about not confusing a sense of Common decency and morality and perhaps conservative political views with Christianity and with having a a new life in Christ there are people that Are so enamored with political figures that are conservative and perhaps conservative pundits and talk -show hosts that they will

01:49:43

Christianize them they will think that these people whether they are Nominal Catholics or Mormons, they will just well, they're gonna they're gonna be okay.

01:49:52

They're really one of us. They're really Christians because they They fight in public against on Against unpopular causes against liberalism and so on so they're really our brothers even if they don't realize it now

01:50:05

That's that's a very dangerous mindset, isn't it? absolutely, there's a Jewish talk -show host here in California but his show is all over the

01:50:16

United States Dennis Prager and I like Dennis Dennis is a religious Jew Politically quite conservative.

01:50:23

I've been on a show a couple times used to do a program called religion on the line But Dennis will sometimes say there are two types of people in the world decent and indecent

01:50:32

Well, I would say look there are people that strive to be moral and some who don't strive at all

01:50:39

But in a biblical sense, we are all indecent we have all broken the commandments of God and we need grace and You know thinking that you're going to get grated on the curve because you're not as bad as Usama bin

01:50:56

Laden or you know, some of the Tyrants of history is a dangerous mindset

01:51:02

Amen, but and by the way, Dennis Prager Was on he may still be on a network

01:51:09

I used to work for and Dennis when he was first being added to the lineup of that That network that identified itself as Christian he came to a sales meeting that we had and He was saying, you know, you may be wondering why

01:51:28

I a Jew want to be on this Christian station and many of my friends We're saying

01:51:33

Dennis why on earth do you want to be on a Christian network? They're gonna try to convert you for crying out loud and he said nothing could be further from the truth

01:51:41

I I was assured by those leaders in this corporation that I have nothing to worry about because they want me to remain a

01:51:50

Jew Because there are so few Jews in the political arena standing for conservative

01:51:57

Values and they think that I do more of a benefit Remaining a Jew than converting to Christianity.

01:52:03

I sat there in astonishment and Perhaps it was cowardice because I knew I would lose my job instantly, but I wanted to say

01:52:11

You mean they're more concerned about politics than your never -dying soul or they're more concerned about our ratings

01:52:18

Than your never -dying soul. I mean that doesn't that was a that was an astonishing thing today

01:52:23

Dennis thought it was wonderful. I Thought it was horrific Point I mean,

01:52:31

I I think that Christians at times Need to be careful about putting politics on the level of you know

01:52:40

The ultimate issues that I I like Dennis Prager. I agree with much of his political viewpoints, but I've had conversations where we've talked about the differences between Judaism and Christianity and You know,

01:52:56

I would love and I pray that he will embrace the Jewish Messiah Jesus Christ Amen We have our last winner of a book today

01:53:10

Aaron in Indianapolis, Indiana Aaron one of my listeners who was so helpful to me in my trip to Indianapolis recently when

01:53:18

I went to the gospel coalition conference, which was Conference mill filled with many

01:53:29

Conflicting emotions There was some phenomenal Inspiring biblical challenging powerful messages.

01:53:37

There were things that were said that were disturbing to me. And of course there was horrible fatigue in the travel there because I made the mistake of Taking Amtrak not knowing that there was going to be a lengthy portion on a bus

01:53:51

So I Have mixed emotions about my trip there but Aaron actually was the one who was able to find a ticket for me to the gospel coalition conference after it was sold out and I thank her very much for her graciousness and generosity and diligence and perseverance and finding that ticket for me

01:54:10

But Aaron she says is Post -modernism a worldview and would you say that it that it is the popular worldview of Millennials?

01:54:21

They are coming into the workplace and it makes a difference in the marketplace to say nothing of their spirituality

01:54:27

Thanks for another great discussion today, Chris That's that's a great question.

01:54:33

I appreciate Aaron's Raising that Post -modernism is a worldview, but I think it's helpful to appreciate

01:54:41

That there is a secular post -modernism that is critical not only of religion, but it's critical of Kind of a modernistic over optimistic kind of scientific orientation so you can be post -modern and be

01:54:58

Non -religious, but they're also religious people that have adopted certain elements of post -modernism some

01:55:06

Christians would identify themselves as as Christian post -modernists

01:55:11

I am Very critical of the secular variety and quite frankly critical of some of the

01:55:17

Christian orientation But Aaron, I think you're right. I think that a good bit of our millennial generation particularly in the

01:55:26

Western world Have adopted kind of a post -modern mindset and I have a chapter devoted to it

01:55:35

You know at the end of the book. I look at atheistic naturalism I look at secular post -modernism

01:55:43

Eastern pantheism and Islamic theism so that chapter there might be helpful to you as you think through what post -modernism is and Some of the challenges that we have with it

01:55:56

Thank you, Aaron, and you've won the last copy that we have to give away of a world of difference by our guest

01:56:02

Ken samples So keep your eye open in the mail for a package from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service cv bbs .com

01:56:10

Cv bbs .com and I really would like you to summarize in About three minutes or so what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about this topic and obviously

01:56:25

Although we have you scheduled on another book on April 25th We can always in the future have you back to depth to delve into the depths

01:56:35

I should say of this book as it's quite a very Reasonably sized book with a lot of the material in it

01:56:41

But if you could summarize what you most want etched in the hearts of minds of our listeners Yeah, Chris first.

01:56:47

Let me say You're very kind and gracious and generous to me to you know

01:56:52

Take two full hours and you've done it a number of times So I want you to know how much

01:56:59

I appreciate that and how fond I am of you How I often think about your lovely wife who was very friendly and gracious to me

01:57:09

I Wrote a world of difference because I think that it's important to think about the most important issues of life

01:57:17

You know philosophers and theologians Emphasize the idea that we need a big picture

01:57:24

We need to have a perspective that looks at all the really important things in life like like God like the world morality values and The human condition and so I wrote this were this book on worldviews to really try to help

01:57:43

Christians To think more carefully and more critically I have sections on what a worldview is how to evaluate them the worldview tests that we alluded to earlier

01:57:54

I Spend a lot of time talking about the Christian worldview In fact, I I take the

01:58:00

Apostles Creed and kind of unpackage it from a worldview perspective What does it say about God?

01:58:06

What does it say about human beings? What does it say about Christ? What about values a

01:58:12

Critical value for Christians is being made in the image of God. So we have inherent dignity and moral worth

01:58:18

I also have sections of the book where I look at logic trying to kind of lay down some principles of Logic and learning how to detect faulty ideas that are reflected in logical fallacies and bias forms of thinking and then the last section of the book where I look at the major worldview competitors and Compare it and contrast it with Christianity.

01:58:42

So it's a book I use at Biola University when I teach logic and worldviews and It's been a book that a number of people have told me have been very helpful to them

01:58:54

So I hope your listeners will give it some consideration when they think about you know reading good books and you know, that's

01:59:04

That's a critical point in its own that Christians need to pursue the life of the mind

01:59:10

They need to be thoughtful and reflective and you do a good job of that Chris.

01:59:15

You have great topics You're well -informed. You have really good guests.

01:59:21

And so I hope people will support your program and Again, I appreciate your generosity

01:59:27

In having me on my pleasure. And if anybody wants more information about Ken samples go to reasons org

01:59:36

Reasons org and we look forward to your return on The 25th of April to discuss without a doubt answering the 20 toughest faith questions

01:59:46

I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who wrote in Questions of their own and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater