December 7, 2023 Show with John L. Cooper on “Wimpy, Weak & Woke: How Truth Can Save America from Utopian Destruction”

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Opens in Carlisle and Introduces the Theme of the Day

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this seventh day of December 2023.

And that date, as you likely know, December 7th is a day that will live in infamy, according to the president at that time in 1941, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. And not to downplay the horrific tragedy of over 2 ,400 United States citizens being killed that day, keep in mind that in 2020, which is the last statistic I could find, there were between 600 ,000 and nearly a million babies murdered in their mother's womb here in the United States.

So just keep that in mind when we consider the horrific tragedy that occurred on American soil in 1941 on this date. But today we are going to be discussing something that is not entirely different from the horrific crime of infanticide that occurs in our nation daily.

We are going to be talking about the woke movement, and to discuss this is a returning guest, John L. Cooper, a lead vocalist, bassist, and songwriter and producer for a two-time Grammy Award-nominated and 12-time platinum band, Skillet.

He's going to be addressing the theme of his new book, Wimpy, Weak, and Woke, How Truth Can Save America from Utopian Destruction. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, John Cooper.

Hey, it's great to be back. Thank you so much.

Why John Cooper Wrote Against Wokeness

And tell us what it was that instilled within you this compelling need to write a new book. There have been other books written exposing the evils and the falsehoods and the lies of the woke movement, the social justice warrior movement, and it comes by a number of other nicknames.

But what was it that compelled you to conjure up in your brain the notion, I've got to write a book exposing this horrible movement in the United States?

Sure. I think the biggest thing that really got me going was just, frankly, how much that it's hurting people. It's hurting people from outside the church, of course. It's hurting people inside the church because these ideas have kind of seeped into the faith.

You know, there's been this sort of syncretism that has happened between Christianity and what I would call the secular social justice movement, these Marxian concepts, and they redefine the faith. And what you have is a lot of really well-meaning, I believe, followers of Jesus Christ to our brothers and sisters in the Lord who believe that they are serving God by upholding these really evil ideologies and they don't know it.

And it ends up hurting them. It hurts their families. It hurts the church. And I believe that it takes the power out of the gospel in terms of our witness to the culture and in terms of what it means to be light and salt in the culture.

I think it redefines it and it takes the power out of the gospel. And so I thought, you know what, I'm going to write this book. I'm not the smartest person in the world, but the thing that I'm good at is taking difficult concepts and saying them in, I think, a simple way that your ordinary average mom or dad that doesn't have time to sit around, you know, reading philosophy books all the time goes, oh, I get what he's saying.

That kind of makes sense. Now, what would be the main pillars.

The Marxist, Freudian, Critical Theory, and Postmodern Roots of Wokeness

Upon which the woke movement rests that you personally and particularly focus on in this book?

You know, that is a great question. I think it might be beneficial for me to tell people what I mean when I say woke. Yes. Just because, yes, some people get really worked up about the word, I've noticed.

I mean, I can't believe the amount of people have gone completely apoplectic over the title alone. You don't even know what woke is. You know, Jesus said to care for the poor, and I'm not listening to you anymore.

And yada, yada, yada. The funny thing is, is in the book, chapter one is I'm defining what I mean when I say woke so people can know. I actually say this word for word. I say caring for the poor, hating racism, wanting better outcomes for people who are suffering in this country.

That is not being woke. I repeat, that is not being woke. Those are those are things that Christians do. That's because we've been saved by Jesus Christ. His Holy Spirit lives inside of us. And a love for God begets a love for your fellow human.

You begin to stand up for justice. You begin to hate evildoing. You begin to love things like like the Bible says, equal weights and measures, you know, equal weights and measures. You judge the poor person against the same scale as the rich person, so on and so forth.

That is not being woke. What wokeness is, is a totalizing worldview that is at odds with the Christian worldview. And that means it's also at odds with the worldview of Western civilization. It is a totalizing worldview that breaks everybody up into oppressors and oppressed groups of people.

But that is not defined by biblical standards. It is not defined by sort of Enlightenment rationalism standards. It is not what Western civilization has understood to be oppressed and oppressors. It is looked at through this kind of neo-Marxist lens.

And that kind of gets us into where you say the pillars, the pillars are certainly going to be Karl Marx, without a doubt. We would not have the 2020s if it wasn't for Karl Marx. But also you also have this this pillar of Freud, which which really that's what neo-Marxism is.

Neo-Marxism is basically a marriage between Marx and Freud. So you have those pillars. Then you have the critical theories. And I think finally, a major pillar, and I think it's sort of the pinnacle of the movement, is postmodernism.

It is the complete obliteration of the belief in objective truth, objective reality, and objective morality. And I think all those things go into the woke movement.

Revenge, White Guilt, and Moral Relativism in the Woke Movement

And this appears to me, and let me know your thoughts on this. This appears to be, even though you mentioned at the outset that you believe there are many Christians who are well-intentioned in adopting publicly some kind of an identity with being woke.

But it appears to me that much of this is being perpetuated in a mindset of revenge. People who don't really want racial harmony, and I hate the word racial, we're all one race, the human race, but harmony between those whose melanin content differs and whose facial features and hair texture differ.

They seem to just want to seek and enact revenge on the ill treatment, to put it mildly, the horrible, the wicked, the satanic treatment of blacks and other minorities in this country by enacting a persecution of sorts against whites.

And I could even include in that Asians. For some reason, Asians are in the target area of those who consider themselves woke, and they see nothing wrong, it seems, with applicants to colleges being bumped to the back of the line or ignored completely because they are white or Asian.

And there are many other things that seem to be a desire of those who call themselves woke that would be the robbing of civil rights of those that just happen to have less melanin content in their skin.

Am I off base here?

No, I don't think you're off base at all. I mean, in my view, that certainly is definitely a section of this, especially when you get into the more, in academics, they call it critical whiteness studies.

Critical whiteness studies is this whole section of thinking that would include critical race theory, even things like, I would say, radical feminist literature. To be specific, it would probably be black feminist literature.

All these things are in that sort of critical whiteness studies thing. And I just pulled this up as you were saying that. In chapter one of my book, I actually quote Douglas Murray. So this is not my quote, but I quoted him in my book.

It reminds me of what you just said. This is what Douglas Murray said in his book, The War on the West. He said, words no longer meant what they had until recently meant. People began to talk of equality, but they did not seem to care about equal rights.

They talk of anti-racism, but they sounded deeply racist. They spoke of justice, but they seemed to mean revenge. And then I wrote tolerance is another word that has been obscured. Many of the most intolerant people are the ones shouting, have tolerance, the loudest.

I think that what we're dealing with is certainly revenge. And I think that you have a lot of young people being co-opted into it. I mean, I don't think these young people necessarily, they're not getting revenge for themselves, but they are trying to get revenge with what they have been told is a deeply, I mean, injustice doesn't even do, that's not even the right word for it.

It's much more impactful than that in their minds that what they have been told is that the entire history of Western civilization is brutal oppression, annihilating indigenous peoples. And just with the sword, sort of like raping the earth and annihilating all of life.

And it's this imperialistic colonialism. And of course, we see that most recently in the fact that a lot of college students in America are supporting Hamas, not just college students, actually, it's a lot of the country is.

And when you look at the breakdowns of who it is, it's really shocking. But for people under 35 in this country, it's over half the population is against Israel. So I think as you look at these things, yes, it is about revenge.

Yes, it is about a self-loathing culture that believes that America is evil, Western civilization is evil. And if you keep breaking it down, they actually believe that Christianity is evil. They believe that those the foundations of America based on Judeo-Christian worldview and ethics are actually extremely oppressive.

And so it's a very self-loathing type of thing. But all of these philosophies really are working towards revolution against.

Christianity. Yes, I agree. And what, in your opinion, is the reason why Caucasians and perhaps some Asians would even go out in public and vociferously and enthusiastically support this movement when they would obviously place themselves within the target of being victims of this movement?

And I can't help but to think that it is nothing more than fear and a seek to retain or gain some kind of popularity, because I don't see the big white names involved in supporting this ideology really giving up anything.

One vivid, glaring example would be our president, Joe Biden. Why is he running for president for a second term and not enthusiastically and excitedly putting forward a black candidate in his place, perhaps even Kamala Harris, a black female candidate?

Well, she's partially black. Her father is from Jamaica or the West Indies somewhere. And, you know, you could go even further. Why doesn't he have a black transgendered individual so-called? We know that there's no such thing as transgender, but, you know, we could go on and on with the characteristic traits of someone that he should be saying, because I really want to put my money where my mouth is and be logically consistent with my approval and enthusiastic support of this whole movement, I'm setting aside my own candidacy.

So someone that the woke movement will heartily support because this individual represents them in many factors. Well, you know, that's just one example. So what would it and your knowledge and your research for this book, what possible other reasons could there be for whites and Asians wanting to support this?

White Guilt, Virtue Signaling, and the Church’s Moral Drift

Yeah, I mean, that's I.

Think that's a wonderful, practical example you just said. I think there's something extremely a nefarious that answers it. But I'll answer something prior to it and I'll work up. I'll work up to what is most, most destructive in my view.

So the great political commentator, not really political, cultural commentator Shelby Steele. Shelby Steele, of course, says that it's white guilt. That's the biggest reason it is. And his, of course, explanation is that there's this white guilt because of the very real, terrible mistreatment.

You already alluded to it. Terrible mistreatment of people of color in this country, namely of blacks and indigenous peoples, of course. And because of that, that terrible treatment, there is this people are a little scared to say that America is a good nation because then they're going to have to defend this horrible history, of course.

And so because of that, they feel like they need to do whatever they need to do to sort of, Shelby Steele always says to gain back their moral authority. I think that's a pretty good way to say it. So basically, you tell me what I need to march for.

You tell me what I need to shout. You tell me who I need to shout down and I will do it. And in fact, I think that's what virtue signaling is. Virtue signaling is basically a way to gain back your moral authority.

You need to be the first one yelling about whatever, you know, infraction happens. So like, for instance, when you remember when Jesse Smollett, he's the black actor in Chicago that ended up faking a racial hoax.

You remember that? And how could I how could I forget that? Yeah. How could you forget that? Please, God, can we forget? But we can't forget that. But so when you see that, you know, what people used to do is they used to go, wow, this is crazy.

I wonder if it's true. And they would wait until facts came out about the thing. But now you can't wait because if you wait, it makes it seem like you don't care about justice and you actually don't want to stand for what's right.

So you need to be the first one to denounce white people, white supremacy, yada, yada, yada, so that you can gain back this moral authority. Now, that is very dangerous. Of course, that's fear of man.

It's evil. The thing that I think is the most nefarious about this, what I am so deeply concerned about, because I love the church, is how this is impacting the church. So what you are witnessing in real time is the relativizing of morality.

That is what's dangerous. So in other words, we no longer look at events and judge them according to a fixed moral standard that never, ever changes. We have that standard in the word of God. So we we know what is right and wrong because God gives us his word and he God never changes.

We know what is right. But we have now removed that and we have a new moral standard. And the new moral standard is sort of it changes every day. There's new faux pas every week. And the only thing that is viewed as moral, I explain this in the book, the only thing that is viewed as moral to the culture is fighting for the revolution, the revolution against America, which is the revolution against Christianity.

Fighting against that revolution is the only thing that is moral, fighting for the oppressed. And of course, that definition of who is oppressed is going to change every week. And we see that recently with what is happening, how all of a sudden Jewish Americans have found out all of a sudden they're no longer the oppressed class because they thought they were a minority class.

And now they're going, wait a minute. I have a Jewish friend of mine in the music business. And he said, this is what he said to me. He said, I just can't believe the amount of of people of color who are coming out against my people because why don't they remember that it's the Jews that marched with MLK?

Why don't they remember that? And the truth is that this oppressor oppressed class, they end up eating their own. And of course, we see that with transgender sports, you know, biological men playing on women's sports teams because they identify as transgender.

All of a sudden you have progressive liberals who used to fight for women are now fighting for transgender. So they're fighting for men who say they're women. They end up eating their own. And this is what is dangerous.

And we have accepted that into the church. And we have to stop doing it because it is splitting the church, namely on the race issue, is the biggest place it's splitting the church, in my view.

Progressivism, Feminism, and the Inconsistencies of the Oppressor Class

Yes. And it's interesting that many of the major feminist activists and organizations have retreated into a closet. I don't know if they are regrouping, trying to figure out how are we going to oppose some of the anti-feminist rhetoric and activity of the transgender movement without losing our reputation of being liberal and so on.

I don't even know what the reason is, but it is it is an interesting phenomenon that you you rarely hear feminists in the public square anymore speaking out on these issues. Yeah, it really. I mean, really what.

You're dealing with, this is the problem with progressivism, isn't it? I mean, progressivism never looks to anything in the past. I believe that the past is retrograde and bad. And we've got to we've got to kind of put it in the dustbin of history, if you will.

And we're going to try something new and we're working towards, you know, equity and we're speaking up for the oppressed people. And even though it's going to contradict itself, they don't know how to fix it.

So they just keep striving forward. I mean, this is another thing I wrote in my book, if you don't mind me reading a little excerpt here. Definitely. This is straight. The reason I have 648 footnotes in this book and the reason is, is because probably a lot of people listening to this are just like me.

You've had these conversations with friends, a lot of them Christians. They're there, but we're on opposing sides of this whole woke movement and the racial justice movement. And I say something to them like, brother, what you're talking about is critical race theory.

And they always come back to me and they say, you don't even know what critical race theory is. They always say that you don't even know what social justice is. And so I put the quotes from the original people.

I'd like to read this. This is this is from Trotsky. OK, so in 1920, Lenin gave a speech to the third all Russia Congress of the Russian Young Communist League in which he explained where their moral code would be derived from.

This is what he said. This is a quote. Is there such thing as communist ethics? Is there such thing as a communist morality? Of course there is. In what sense do we reject ethics, reject morality in the sense given to it by the bourgeoisie who base ethics on God's commandments?

On this point, we of course say that we do not believe in God. We reject any morality based on extra human and extra class concepts. And then a little later, he says, we say that our morality is entirely subordinated to the interests of the proletariat's class struggle.

Our morality stems from the interests of the class struggle of the proletariat. He's saying it in black and white. What he's saying is morality is going to be defined by however we lift up the classes that are oppressed.

So what you are dealing with are people who have been feminists. They've been fighting for that. And now they're told there's a new group of oppressed people. They're called transgender people. Now you have to fight for that.

And they don't know what to do. But they truly believe in a very sort of religious spiritual way that miraculously, supernaturally, magically, however you want to say it. Eventually, all these conflicts are going to meld together and they are going to fix themselves.

They're going to meld together into unity somehow. And we can or cannot get into why they believe that if you want to, because I know that people listening are going, that doesn't make any sense. No, it doesn't make sense.

But they believe it in a very religious sort of way. It's going to miraculously work. And we're just going to keep pressing forward towards utopia until it does. And we have to go to our first commercial break.

If you have a question for John L. Cooper about his book that we are discussing today, Wimpy, Weak, and Woke, How Truth Can Save America from Utopian Destruction, our email address is chrisarmson at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Perhaps, for instance, you are a member of a church that you believe has gone woke, and you don't want to publicly identify yourself as you criticize what you see going on. Perhaps you're even the pastor of a church that you believe is going or has gone woke, and you are very alarmed about this.

You're even in disagreement with your fellow elders. We understand that those would be reasons why you would like to remain anonymous, but if it's just a general question, please at least give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

And by the way, anyone who disagrees with what's being said is welcome to send in a question. In fact, I would love to hear even more listeners' questions who may be defending the woke movement. Not that I'd be happy that there were more people out there in that defense position, but I would love to hear from you nonetheless if you're listening.

And once again, it's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after.

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We are now back with John Cooper. We are discussing his new book which is Demolishing the Woke Movement, Wimpy, Weak, and Woke, How Truth Can Save America from Utopian Destruction. But John, before we return to that conversation I have a bone to pick with you.

My feelings were very seriously hurt. I was actually emotionally devastated when I learned that you recorded a song about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I'm going to play a clip of it and I want you to answer for this because it really has bothered me too much to remain silent about it.

Here's a clip of this song that you wrote about Iron.

Sharpens Iron Radio. Now why on earth would you... Sick of this radio show. Yes, why on earth would.

You humiliate me that way with a recording like that? I'm just kidding. That's a great song. I actually love that anthem which actually would basically goes hand in hand with the book you've written. But going back to what you were saying before about Jewish people being mortified, horrified, shocked that Jews are being attacked and even threatened with violence in this country by those who are in the woke movement and they have amnesia, it seems, about the fact that Jews were an integral part of the civil rights movement and I immediately thought of bringing up the fact I don't think woke people care because even though you would rarely, if ever yet at this point, maybe it's coming soon, but you'd very rarely hear of a woke individual, especially a well-known spokesperson for it, attacking the legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

And by the way, when I'm bringing this up, I do not necessarily agree with everything. In fact, I do disagree with much of the ideology of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. In fact, you could find out more about this from a phenomenal documentary that Larry Elder created and my friends Virgil Walker and Daryl Bernard Harrison are a part of this documentary and Vodie Baucom is also a part of this, but it's called Uncle Tom 2.

You can hear more about the destructive legacy that the civil rights movement has left this nation. But having said that, although you won't hear woke folk by name tearing down the accomplishments of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., they don't have his ideology.

In fact, if a white person today merely word for word repeats Dr. King's core ideology when it comes to so-called race relations, they would call that person a racist. If we're not supposed to care about the color of one's skin and if we are to judge men by the content of the character and not the color of their skin,.

That's considered racist today, isn't it? Yeah. You know, I think that part of what's happened here, and again, it's the reason that I decided to do so many footnotes in this book, because I did such a deep dive.

I think that most people don't understand how radical these ideologies are. I think that most Christians are sort of on the fence on a lot of this stuff. I think they don't want to get involved. They didn't want to choose sides during, for instance, BLM.

Most Christians recognize there's a difficult history in America, racism of the past. They're still in that sort of white guilt phase. Most Christians didn't want to take sides on this. But if they understood how dark these ideologies were, they would absolutely reject them and they would get involved.

A lot of these things just kept changing names. They went underground. And so, for instance, in the 60s, you had a lot of, I would say, Marxist-inspired movements like the Black Power Movement. You had the Black Liberation Army.

You had some of these very Marxist radical groups that were doing a lot of violence. Well, the American public got sick of that in the 70s. But what happened was that within about a decade, a lot of the leaders of those movements literally moved into academia.

I mean, they became professors at Berkeley and they were hired to come. They went from prison straight to teaching in colleges. And they would, they changed the names of their things. They realized that people were not down with the violence.

Americans were tired of that. They didn't want to see more violence. So they began to call it other things like decolonization. That's when you end up getting post-colonial studies. And they began to, critical theory, liberation movements.

They no longer fought for socialism. They called them liberation movements, which is nothing more than really was Marxist socialistic movement. So what you have with, I think what's happening with Jewish Americans right now is that they did not really truly understand what was going on in the university.

So I've seen a lot of wealthy Jewish people on the news within the last two months. I'm sure everybody listening has. They've been saying, what's happening with these colleges? I've been donating millions of dollars to these colleges and all they're doing is teaching our kids anti-Semitism.

I'm going to yank my funds. So we're beginning to see that, which is a good thing. But the truth is, is that the problem with these colleges is not that they are anti-Semitic. The problem with these colleges is that they are anti-Western civilization and anti-Semitism is a natural result of being anti-civilization.

Even on my social media page, I posted stop anti-Semitism now. And what I said on my social media was without the Jewish people, we would not have. And then I listed out things that we wouldn't have.

We would not understand covenant theology. We wouldn't understand representative government. I mean, everybody should understand that Western civilization is built on, you know, the two pillars of Jerusalem and Athens, right?