A Challenge to George Bryson

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James White So someone just popped this into channel. I figure is a good place to start Eyes popped it up.

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Hey, it's the easy way to do things. Welcome to divine line. By the way, it's 28th of September It's sometime morning and it's gonna be hot all week here in Phoenix once again

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Predicting 108 on Thursday. That will definitely be a record yeehaw

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Some of the rest of you are actually starting to enjoy fall but ain't happening here. We're all excited that next

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When you're looking when you're looking at a week in two days down the road it might have a high of 93

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Yeah oven mitts. Oh Man, it's it's bad.

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Anyways Survey many Americans know little about religion a new survey of Americans knowledge of religion found that atheists agnostics

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Jews and Mormons Outperformed Protestants Roman Catholics and answering questions about major religions

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While many respondents could not correctly give the most basic tenets of their own faiths. Yeah think 45 % of Roman Catholics.

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This is great 45 % of Roman Catholics who participate in the study didn't know that according to church teaching the bread and wine used in Holy Communion is

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Not just a symbol but becomes the body and blood of Christ 45 % More than half of Protestants could not identify

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Martin Luther as the person who inspired the Protestant Reformation Well, of course we could argue about Wickliffe and Huss and stuff like that but we're a little bit weird and About four in ten

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Jews did not know that Maimonides one of the greatest rabbis and intellectuals in history was Jewish The survey released

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Tuesday by the Pew Forum on religion and public life aimed to test a broad range of religious knowledge Including a basic understanding of the

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Bible core teachings of different faiths and may their major figures in religious history The u .s.

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Is one of the most religious countries in a developed world Especially compared to largely secular Western Europe But faith leaders and educators have long lamented that Americans still know relatively little little about religion

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Well, you know, maybe if they like attended church once in a while Respondents to the survey were asked 32 questions with a range of difficulty including whether they could name the

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Islamic Holy Book Is that Hadith 4157

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And the first book of the Bible. Well, you know, that sort of depends on you know Whether you have a

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Bible or not or say what century the Mormon religion was founded And that that one would trip a lot of people up.

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Let's face it not too many of us running around going Well, I'd be April 6th, 1830 On average participants in the survey answered correctly overall for half of the survey questions atheists and agnostics scored highest

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That's because they normally study what they deny with an average of 21 correct answers while Jews and Mormons followed with about 20 accurate responses

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Protestants overall average 16 and The Catholics followed the score a miserable score of 15

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Not surprisingly those who said they attend worship at least once a week and consider religion important their lives often

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Performed better on the overall survey. Well, you think that's sort of like saying well people who attend school do better on tests

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Top performing groups in the survey still came out ahead even when controlling for how much schooling they had completed

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On questions about Christianity Mormons scored the highest an average of about eight correct answers out of twelve

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Followed by white evangelicals. Why are they asking what color you are? With an average of just over seven correct answers

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Jews along with atheists and agnostics knew the most about other faiths such as Islam Buddhism Hinduism and Judaism less than half of Americans knew that the

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Dalai Lama is Buddhist and less than four in ten know that Vishnu and Shiva are part of I'm I'm motioning toward our studio audience and the studio audience is

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Staring at me with this really blank look and they're considering turning my microphone off I'm sorry, we have technical difficulties.

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We will continue on. What's that? Hindu ain't been in that and we got one person in the studio audience.

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That's uh that they got it. What was that? What do you need a prize now? Barry Barry, okay,

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Barry Barry But I'm sorry Barry you look like you were guessing because for the first 15 seconds it was the look of utter terror

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He's not gonna ask me to answer that question on the air is he Okay, anyway

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Interesting interesting survey there But not overly surprising in any way shape or form

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I did want to set a couple things straight before we go to our calls at eight seven seven seven five three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three one or Skype dividing that line on Skype dividing that line for some reason doing the debate on Friday night with Abdullah Kunda and I want to thank

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Abdullah for his patience The quote -unquote Christian callers were an embarrassment

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Friday night on ABN. That's still the only way to put it They they were completely off topic they read homonym they were abusive

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They were it was just it was terrible and they need to learn to screen those calls and screen those people out

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I just I just it's the only way to do it Audience participation is sometimes interesting, but 98 % of the time it is an absolute waste of time

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To let the audience participate in the debate they are not the ones who are prepared to do the debate in the first place I don't never understood that but we always gotta let the audience you know have their say you know well

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We had guys calling up and why I read a book that said Muhammad was gay And he's gonna be gay in heaven and just this this just sheer lunacy, but anyway for some reason

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My video feed likewise cut out or cut out on their end or something and so they have a picture of me so this still picture of me from answering

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Islam is what they put up on the screen and You know I'd done all this work to make sure the camera was in the right place and do all this stuff and it didn't

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Work, so anyway, but it was an interesting discussion of assurance of Christian of salvation in Christianity and Islam in fact just in passing before I read this other thing which has absolutely nothing to do this

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I Am listening again to the the the basic level lectures

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From the Almagrib Institute and Sheikh Yasser Qadhi Going through them a second time.

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I would listen to them once before and it's amazing how much I missed But he was talking today, it was this was really really interesting

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This is before sunrise so if you can see I put that's one of the best pictures

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I've ever taken. I don't know if you saw that out there, but that's one of the best pictures I've ever posted from from my rides

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I got a real nice picture from way up at the top of where Greenway Road ends

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You really have to climb up there. It's a really steep climb, and I took that picture Beautiful picture, but before I got there.

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I was still riding in the dark obviously and I was listening to Sheikh Yasser Qadhi lecturing about the minimum requirements for salvation basically and he talked about how

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Muhammad had talked about a single man an individual Who came before Allah on the

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Day of Judgment with ninety nine? scrolls filled with his sins and Each scroll if it were to you're to roll it out would go as far as the eye can see so This guy is is the definition of sinner

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And it's interesting 99 scrolls, and then he got another story about a guy who killed 99 people

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It seems like Muhammad had a thing with 99 and Not the agent 99, that's

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I didn't want to start a terrible rumor here Some some

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Imam over in Iran someplace a Shiite Imam is going to Know all about get smart, and you know put out a fatwa on me for that one, but anyway and The story is that you know

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Allah asks him well. Did you commit these sins? Yes, I committed these sins Did my angels? misrecord them because Muslims believe that all your sins are recorded by angels and all your good deeds recorded by angels and So he asked where's where's your good deeds?

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I don't have any good deeds well actually you do have a good deed and Allah produces a card now remember that 99 scrolls and He produces and and and Allah produces a card and on the card is like ilaha ilaha it was it's it's the it's a shahada and The guy's like but what what good is that who who who cares about that and Allah says, but this is your good deeds and Because of that one good deed he goes into paradise now you immediately go in a way 99 scrolls and you know and just because it says the shahada and it was interesting because He immediately said now now some people misinterpret this to mean that you you can just as long as you said the shahada

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Then you're you're you can do whatever you want you get to go in heaven But remember this is just one man

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And he actually limited the story to the fact there only be one person's could get in that way just one so other people can say the shahada and still end up not getting in and That of course raises our course questions about what it means to perfect one's

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Iman and stuff like that and it was it was interesting but it was Somewhat illustrative is somewhat relevant to the subject of the debate that I had with Abdullah Kunda on On Friday night, which has nothing to do with this

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I want to Set the record straight in regards to our our good buddy

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George Bryson I should have dug this out, and I forgot to do so but last year. I was sent a number of copies

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Of an email that George Bryson sent out to all the Calvary Chapel pastors And I've been learning a lot about the non denominational domination over this past year remember back in January February starting

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January Little did we know in January when I heard

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Ergon Kanner on the pastors perspective show Talking about how people like myself our debates are just the are the

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Jerry Springer show and things like that remember I produced that video documenting again the fact that Ergon Kanner I think if Ergon Kanner looks up at the sky and tries to say it is blue something happens to him.

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He goes it is Green he just cannot say something truthful The man is an inveterate liar, and he just can't stop and he was lying on the air at that time

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Little did we know that there were many other lies that would be exposed over time as I mentioned on the video that I posted on the blog last evening concerning his amazingly horrific statements at the

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Bristol prayer breakfast where he's just gone back to the same old same old and And of course well,

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I'll let you watch the video and you can judge from that anyway How did that how did

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Ergon Kanner get in there, I have north the idea, but George Bryson Oh Calvary Chapel, so At that time

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I you know people started sending me stuff That was being said on the Calvary Chapel program and in fact someone just sent something to me a couple days ago

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But it was the same program. They had done. I don't know how many years ago that we responded to You know attacking

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Calvinism and stuff like that and Over those months I've learned a lot more

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I learned a lot more when I went over to Santa Fe a few weeks ago I had never heard of you've ever heard of the Moses model

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The Moses my I'd never heard the Moses model but any of you who are Have been trained in in the

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Calvary Chapel's know the Moses model is the Moses model is their ecclesiology the Moses model is the idea that that God speaks to one person and through that person disseminates his information of the people and The scary thing is in Calvary Chapel ecclesiology, that's

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Chuck Smith and Then for each individual church, it's the one pastor.

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It's a monarchical system in fact I found out that at one point Chuck Smith fired everybody underneath him and started over fresh, and he can do that There's no

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Board of Elders. There's you the the senior pastor is king It's the

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Moses model now. It's a grossly unbiblical model I don't know how anybody in Calvary Chapel ever came up with that from reading the

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New Testament but You know, there's this issue of plurality of elders in the New Testament and the Apostles appointed elders in the churches

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Not an elder in a church Etc, etc, but be that as it may

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They've got the Moses model and and and all the rest of stuff so I've been learning a lot about this well

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George Bryson sent out a letter last year to all the Calvary Chapel pastors warning about me and the

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Calvinists were coming And every once in a while George manages to come back from Russia just long enough to you know

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Jump into some forum someplace say something odd and then then leave again and a number of people sent me a

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Comment that he made just a couple days ago on Facebook and let me read it for you and then respond

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To what it says is I have not listened to this debate I'm not sure which debate this was

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Okay, the one with St. Janice and Santa Fe, okay, that makes sense I figured that's what it was, but I have not listened to this debate, but I have debated white with a live audience

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Three hours in the BAM radio program and twice in print in the equip journal Which actually is the CRI journal not the equip journal

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But anyway, I have invited him to debate me on I owe the issue of theistic fatalism

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I'm not sure why I'd ever debate anybody on that because I'm not a fatalist or God is the author of sin

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In other words, he's invited me to debate on two topics that if he knew anything about reformed theology

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He would know I don't actually believe So far he has refused well, duh

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Couple things here George. Let me try to explain something to you Once again, as I have explained to you many times before I Don't believe in either thing.

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I believe God has decreed whatsoever comes to pass in time now if you want to Misrepresent that lie about it twist it attack it as theistic fatalism fine

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Let's debate that and I will demonstrate that you don't know what you're talking about. That's fine. We can do that But George, you know the reason then another debate hasn't taken place

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You know what the reason is and I'm gonna tell everybody else because I've already said this on the blog But you have to keep repeating things because I mean other than algo who sits around all day reading old blog articles

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I mean, he's the only person I know that is, you know You know every year works through at least three or four years of old blog articles

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And listens to all the dividing lines three times each during this course here Here's here's the reason a debate hasn't taken place.

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It's real simple folks George Bryson will not allow me to ask him questions during the debates

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In other words, he won't debate if you don't have cross -examination, you're not having a debate

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You might as well and this is how many times I've explained this But if you don't have cross -examination, you're not having a debate you might as well go listen to him speak over in one room and me go speak in another room because you're not having any interaction in the process and Everybody knows who watches the debate that we did what was that 2001 something like that somewhere around there?

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Anybody who watches that debate knows that the wheels fell off of George's wagon during cross -examination

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Even George fell off of George's wagon during cross -examination He didn't do well, he doesn't handle that.

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Well, and so from the beginning Whenever the issue of debates come up, but we're not gonna do you know, we're not gonna let him get away with that We're not gonna do this cross -examination stuff

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So I will prove that this is the case. This is simple I'm putting out a challenge to George Bryson everybody on Facebook and gold can run over to his

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Facebook page or whatever else and Let George Bryson know James White said this on the dividing line today

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George I will be happy to defend the statements of The Baptist Confession of Faith Which is very similar to the

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Westminster Confession of Faith if you would like If you would like we could give you specific statements from the

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Confession of Faith In regards to God's divine providence chapter 5 of the

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London Baptist Confession of Faith if you want to take a look at that However, you want to do it, but I will gladly defend the assertion that Well, let me just just read a few here

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To do to do to do. Here we go. God's decree chapter 3 From all eternity

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God decreed all it should happen in time and this he did freely and unalterably Consulting only his own wise and holy will yet in so doing he does not become in any sense the author of sin

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Nor does he share responsibility for sin with sinners neither by reason of his decree is the will of any creature whom he has made violated

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Nor is the free working of second causes put aside rather it is established in all these matters the divine wisdom appears as Also does

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God's power and faithfulness and affecting that which he has purposed God's decree is not based upon his foreknowledge that under certain conditions certain happenings will take place

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But is independent of all such foreknowledge by his decree and for the manifestation of his glory God has predestined or foreordained certain men and angels to eternal life to Jesus Christ thus revealing his grace others whom he has left to perish in their sins show the terrors of his

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Justice the first three sections of chapter 3 of the London Baptist confession of faith I will be glad to defend those statements from the

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Holy Scriptures. Mr. Bryson. I ask only one thing from you I will provide my own transportation. I will put myself up However, the debate will take place at Calvary Costa Mesa you have you have the power to do that You have the ability to do that Calvary Costa Mesa The Vatican of the

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Calvary Chapel movement the very home of the papacy or at least Moses Call it whatever you want

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Mount Sinai the Vatican. It doesn't matter Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa be there or be square

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So tell me when when you want to do it next year I'm already booked up for the rest of this year George. You just get in touch with me.

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I will Lord willing be debating Michael Brown on Very similar subject, but I can guarantee you that my debates with Michael Brown will be will be of a completely different tenor and tone than any debate with George Bryson because Michael Brown thinks deeply and wants to go to the

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Word of God and that was not my experience of George Bryson, but For the benefit of all those good folks to go to Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa I will be happy to debate

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George Bryson defend those statements from London Baptist confession of faith at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa I'll be looking forward to your contact

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George And we will we will we will arrange that be happy to do that He goes on to say in this

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Facebook statement Some of our radio debate is covered in the dark side of Calvinism I know why he will not debate on the issue of fatalism

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It is because he already admitted reluctantly that God causes babies to be raped He took a lot of heat from his friends because they reason that even if it is true

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You just cannot come out and say so by the way I do not believe Calvary Santa Fe is a Calvary Chapel in fellowship with Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa and company

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Which is again the Vatican if I'm wrong, I would like to know this No, they've they've actually kicked

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Calvary Santa Fe out and Calvary Santa Fe will be changing its name They told me what the name would be but they haven't gotten around to doing that yet and they will so we'll let folks know at that point in time but This again is the is the

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George Bryson approach And we've we've remember I we took the time and maybe maybe

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I'll go or somebody can post up where we placed Where we did this, but I went through the entire section of George Bryson's Anti Calvinism talk and we cover that over.

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I don't know what six seven programs and we went through and demonstrated just how horrifically shallow the

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Calvary Chapel response to Calvinism is and So I would invite you to go back and look at those

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Articles and listen to that and I think that'll that'll be of some assistance to you so With that are we ready to go to our phone calls?

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I only see one one there, but I see maybe there's another one being queued up So, all right, let's let's go to Missouri and talk to Dwayne.

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Hi Dwayne. Hi, Dr. White. How are you today? Doing good. All right. I have you raised a

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Question I want to ask real quick, but that's not my real question. Could I ask you a first one first? Sure Not your debate with dr.

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Brown. When is that? What's the topic? Oh, we we haven't scheduled it yet, but we have a church in Atlanta that wants to go ahead and do that.

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I would assume sometime late spring I I need to try to coordinate it in that.

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I want to do not only the debate with With Michael and I'd like to do at least two parts of that Maybe on two different evenings because we need we need more time to cover certain things

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But I also want to arrange to debate sir, Anthony buzzard at the same church at the same time

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So it'd be a large investment of effort on my point on my part But I would I would not expect anything before April or May It would probably be when

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I'd be looking at that back east. Okay, cool I've got plenty of time to make arrangements for my travel schedule.

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How's that? Yes. Here's my question I go to a small Armenian Church and a couple

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Sundays ago The pastor spent about oh, I would say 40 minutes 45 minutes with a long series of warning passage passages about falling away both in the

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Old Testament and the New Testament and you know lots of very Very challenging statements about the dangers of Having the faith and then falling away

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And he didn't ask the question that I've been pondering ever since and the question he asked

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I want you to answer for me Was if you are chosen or elected By God, why all the warning passages about falling away?

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Yeah, it's a very common question Armenians ask It's been answered for centuries. In fact, I preach two sermons on apostasy just Sunday they're on sermon audio and I just haven't finished getting the videos put together

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Yet so I can upload them to the to the blog But the the answer has been given and the answer that is given

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Scripturally as well is the fact that is those warnings that God uses the means that God uses To preserve his people.

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It's amazing to me that people keep asking that question because it ignores The the obvious reality that God uses means to accomplish his ends

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It's it's not just he just zaps his people and I go. Oh, I automatically know exactly what's right and wrong I'm just automatically gonna do it.

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No, he gives us his word. He gives us the warnings of Scripture he gives us the examples of people down through history who have had much light and sinned against that light and That's the means that he uses to grow his people in there

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Not only their love for the truth, but in their desire to honor him and to avoid that which brings his wrath so the the whole idea is based upon the

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I don't know where people get this but the idea that God can't use means it's either it's either got to be some supernatural zap from outer space or something or These these warnings automatically mean that Christ cannot be a perfect Savior that That it has to be a synergistic means of salvation that Christ cannot save in and of himself, etc, etc

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I've never understood it But especially when you recognize especially in Hebrews, I've been preaching through Hebrews I've covered a number

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I've covered almost all but the last major warning passages in Hebrews already

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Because they appear through chapter 6 and we're in the chapter 8 There's one one major section left in chapter 10 that we will need to address

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But we've covered all of these it's not like it's not like we ignore them or anything else And each and every one of them is addressed to the visible church.

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The visible church is a mixed group The elders do not have the capacity the ability to look into people's hearts and minds and know who is and who is not

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Regenerate sitting in front of them and there are people who can make quite a show for a good period of time and so the warnings are delivered to the church visible and The they are received in two different ways

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Those who are regenerate hear these warnings and they are a means by which they are instructed in what is right what is pleasing to God and what to avoid and The unregenerate either ignore them

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Or eventually I think especially in a church where the Word of God is being preached as regularity the unregenerate eventually become uncomfortable with the constant exposure of their sins and Hence the apostasy that we see described in 1st

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John 2 19. They went out from us. So it might be demonstrated They were not truly of us they they go out and either find other ways of expressing their religious hypocrisy and rebellion or Just simply abandon all pretense of religiosity and Toto so Once one remembers the context in which these warnings are given

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And then the just simply recognizes that God uses means to accomplish his ends

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Then the the objection is is really seen to be based upon false assumptions

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Okay, did that answer the question for you? It answers the question to a certain extent of The part that's that I mean, it's a son of kind of a self -fulfilling prophecy answer in other words

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It's easy to say that we have a next church and and those who fall away were never in the camp to begin with But that's biblical.

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That's what first John says. I just free in fact go to sermon audio and go to Sunday morning sermon

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I went through 1st John 2 19 phrase by phrase and word by word And that's exactly what

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John says and I even I even raised the objection you just raised I said, you know a lot of people say well, that's just that's just too easy.

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Well, it's not easy at all But it's certainly biblical. I mean it is the direct statement of Scripture They went out from us, but they were not from us for if they had been of us

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They would have abided or remained with us But they went out in order that it might be manifested that they were all not of us now it

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I Not even looking at the text I'm just giving you the translation of the

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Greek that's still in my mind from the serpent on Sunday But if someone would like to suggest another meaning to that that sentence

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I'm willing to hear it but Words are words and One short question as you know, you know, we you can just give me a simple answer

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But do you think it is possible that for those who are not chosen or elected to hear the

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Word of God and God? It is compassion and mercy. They're outside of the camp that of his choice

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They're not in the Lamb's Book of Life to begin with but they through their own faith repent and turn from their wicked ways and and Choose to follow

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Christ. Do you believe that they would be accepted? No, first of all, the question is assuming facts contrary to the evidence

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You are you are you are assuming that a dead sinner can raise themselves to spiritual life that a rebel sinner

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Can change his own heart of stone into a heart of flesh that dry bones lying upon the valley floor

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Can regroup regrow flesh and sinews and become living creatures in other words the entire assumption of the question

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Contradicts the clear biblical teaching of the nature of man in his rebellion against God well I've been in church in many churches where there are very dramatic altar calls on the organ is playing very softly and and the minister is pleading and And crying and begging them to come to the altar for salvation and some come

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And then you know, it doesn't work, you know what I mean? But they can but they come and I know I'm coming it seems to work

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But you see you two things God can draw a straight line of the crooked stick in other words

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God can use Inappropriate means to accomplish his purposes should he so choose to do so we should never seek to force him to do so we and We are not honoring him when we use those things

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But God can do so so the fact that there have been people who have been saved in that way is not in of itself an argument for the propriety of using that kind of methodology, but at the same time

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I remember very very well when the Current pastor of a very well, it's not a very large

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Baptist Church anymore, but it was a very large Baptist Church at the time Pastor left here in the

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Phoenix area and a new pastor came in and Only a few months into his time here he got up and he preached a sermon where he went over the books not the financial books, but the books of converts

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Members etc, etc, and he pointed out that in this very large Baptist Church, which for years and years had boasted of Baptizing more than 1 ,000 people per year and I mean they put the push on I mean when you got toward the end of the church year

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I remember you were going out and visiting people and you were doing everything you could to push for this one

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Sunday Where everybody stayed around afterwards and you just rammed them through conveyor

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Like through that baptistry to get try to get to a thousand people well, he pointed something out and That was that of all the people who had come forward made a profession of faith.

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I believe he said in the past three years That they did not have any earthly idea where 89 % of those people were

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No contact whatsoever didn't know where they were. No, no, no follow -up.

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No, nothing 89 % of the people that had come through there. They had no earthly idea where they were now were some of those people saved

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I suppose so But how many of them? Are the same people that I meet all the time who talk about how hey, you know what?

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I'm right with God because I walked down a lot And I shook the pastor's hand and I've prayed the sinner's prayer.

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They have no interest whatsoever in godliness They have no interest in in Christ. They have no interest in holiness

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They don't have a spiritual bone their body, but they are absolutely convinced that they're on their way to heaven many many many false converts have been produced by that type of Methodology and mechanism and we all see it.

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We all see it fair enough. I have a nugget for you. I'll let you go I'm working my way through Martin Lloyd Jones's Romans 8 and 9 and one of the things he said that really struck me

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He said it he said when you talk about salvation and how it works You must raise the critical question and the critical question is that the way it works

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It's not fair. And if you work it out where it seems to be fair. You're not looking at it correctly

33:40

Well, I've said many many times when people when people when people raise the objection. Well, that's not fair I say you don't want fair You don't want strict categories of justice.

33:50

You want mercy and grace, buddy. There's no choice about it You might find useful the sermon that I preached at Calvary Santa Fe a week ago

33:59

Sunday morning It is posted. I believe linked to it on my blog.

34:04

Look up Calvary Santa Fe and It was on the perseverance of the

34:09

Saints and the nature of that and the reason why it takes place So I think you might find it useful. I will do. Thank you very much.

34:15

Okay. Thank you very much. Thanks for coming. Bye -bye eight seven seven seven five three three three four and that is a very

34:21

Common question it is the constant repeated claim of Dave Hunt and again people in the non -denominational denomination

34:30

That the existence of warning passages means that well depends on what it means I've met people in the non -denominational denomination to believe in the perseverance of the

34:39

Saints They believe in quote -unquote eternal security, but they don't believe in election, which is the only grounds for believing in eternal security but once again,

34:47

I would I did link to it on my blog, but I would I really tried to in conversations with the pastor

34:55

Paul Scott's a father at Calvary Santa Fe When he asked me to preach on that particular subject

35:02

One of the things he said was people need to understand the the proper balance and relationship of what

35:10

God is doing in saving his elect and this concept of One saved always saved and things like that and so I approached it in a different way

35:24

I did not just go to John chapter 6 or John chapter 10 and and Do it that direction.

35:29

I start in Titus chapter 2 and That incredible statement that is found there where where Paul tells

35:36

Titus that saving Grace grace that actually saves people

35:42

Teaches us to live godly and sensibly in this present age to deny ungodliness to deny

35:48

Sinful attitudes and to live in a particular way saving grace grace that actually saves does that and if you claim

35:59

That kind of grace in your life, but it's not teaching you to live in that way then you're lying

36:05

So I started from a perspective people would not expect and then I built the case that the only foundation for the perseverance of the

36:13

Saints and assurance and the part of the Christian life is Looking to Jesus Christ and the fact the triune God is bringing about the

36:20

Trinity's glorification in the salvation of a specific people and So you can see how that worked in in the sermon.

36:28

It's linked from the blog It was a week ago Sunday at Calvary Santa Fe and hopefully you will find that to be useful

36:39

Okay, let's continue on eight seven seven seven five three three three four one let's let's

36:45

Head back one Deutschland with hair Thomas hair Thomas we gates The feeler or is this

37:01

As is this is Morgan, yeah nine Odin's ah, no.

37:07

Okay. Yeah eight hours or nine hours right now eight Okay.

37:13

All right. How are you Thomas? I'm good. Thanks for taking my call and you sound great

37:19

Skype works. Well, even across the pond Excellent. That is that is a great great opportunity and I want to use this opportunity to really thank you and thank

37:28

God for your ministry You made me stumble over over this ministry a couple of years ago

37:35

Just when I started to study at a secular University here and theology.

37:42

Oh and I thought I'm left alone. I Thought there's nobody who even looks at Textural variants or anything like that.

37:54

So That was a great great blessing that your ministry has done to me

37:59

Well, that's that's extremely encouraging to hear now. I do not hear a thick German accent. So are you native

38:06

German or what? born and raised Well, then you have a you have a tremendous

38:13

English speaking accent then congratulations My German isn't nearly as good as your

38:22

English let's put it that way but anyway well, you know, I I wish

38:27

I could I wish I could spend more time speaking with German folks I stayed with a a Family in New York a couple years ago.

38:34

He's Swiss and she's German and I asked them. Could we just stop the English and force me to go back, you know, sort of an immersion type thing and that that helped a lot for a while, but I just don't have anybody to speak with you know, and even in high school,

38:51

I memorized John 1 1 and I Quoted it in a German speaking contest type thing, but I think the fact it was from the

38:58

Bible doomed me from the start They also looked at me like that sounded really religious, so I didn't get very far on that one, but It has been good to catch a few

39:11

German folks up once in a while to go I'm on fung var das wort and das wort wort by got and got var das wort and they go

39:17

Oh, I've heard about that and then you can start from there. But anyways, that's not why you called So you have a very interesting question from what

39:24

I'm seeing here yes, and it's a little story behind that I had a young man who stayed with me and my wife and and To make a long story short

39:39

He went to go back where he was and he was looking for church And so he found a church now, but they have female elders

39:48

And so we have been discussing back and forth and he said, okay Thomas So you're telling me you would be okay if I go to a church that for example

39:59

Like I think this is what R .C. Sproul Believes for example the infant baptism

40:06

Is okay But if there's a female elder you go no don't join that church and he also talked about you know

40:14

Well if the church speaks in tongues Here in Germany were Angelical churches a few and in between you'd go it's okay.

40:24

But if there is female elders Don't go there. Now. How can I tell him?

40:30

Well, there is a huge difference between hearing the in having a female elder exercising authority and teaching and The other issues like infant baptism speaking the tongues, yeah.

40:48

Yeah. Well Wow that that that I don't know anything about the church is is it a member is it part of a particular denomination?

40:58

This one that he's going to Yeah, yes It's a ICF. I don't even know if you're familiar with that.

41:07

No, I'm not I'm not Interesting and this is in Germany Yeah, okay. All right.

41:12

Well a couple things there obviously We can disagree on on particular issues

41:22

The the impact of the issues that we disagree upon needs to be something that we very maturely examine

41:30

For example, I have multiple times defended credo baptism against my pedo

41:38

Baptist brethren I'm not sure if you've heard my debate with Bill Shishko on that subject, but but we did so as brothers and There are many situations that I can think of where if you are looking at the churches that you can reasonably attend and You would have the choice between a fluffy

42:04

Baptist entertainment service and Your local

42:09

Orthodox Presbyterian congregation, I would say go PC no matter what now you couldn't you couldn't necessarily join unless you subscribe to the

42:18

Confession of Faith, but I've known many a Reformed Baptist who has found fellowship in that context because we have communion on the issues of the gospel

42:31

When it comes to other issues We may or may not have that communion in my experience now,

42:40

I don't know anything about this group So I can't comment directly but in my experience the female eldership concept is almost always associated with some kind of Compromise in regards to issues of either the the current ability of the

43:01

Word of God to address The nature of the church the offices of the church, etc, etc, or combined with some

43:09

Degradation in the view of the Word of God. It's been my experience here in the United States. Anyways, is that Generally, that is what is taking place

43:19

If you look at the United Methodist Church, if you look at at the various liberal denominations, they've all jettisoned as merely a artifact of the the society at the time

43:32

The idea that that the Word of God's statement in regards to defining elders is clearly concerning men

43:41

They've they've abandoned that and they say it just doesn't really matter any anymore But that's never been the only thing they've done.

43:48

In other words, it's part of a complex of issues that paedo -baptism is not necessarily a part of in that way and so I would see a difference at that point and I would certainly see a difference between that and The the concept of speaking in tongues in a in a particular congregation or things like that, which which again is normally associated with a whole other group of theological distinctives practices and things like that And so if you can help them to see the the distinctions along those lines that that might be somewhat helpful

44:25

But I would my question really would would be How long has this has this practice been going on and what are the specific kinds of argumentation

44:36

I think you said ICEF uses to Substantiate the practice of the ordination of women to the eldership and that can give you some idea.

44:47

I think of Is this a fairly recent thing? Is this a thing that is a part of a complex of other of other?

44:55

You know beliefs and Practices that would be troubling in regards to its view of Scripture Things like that that that's the that's where I would go if I were to ask somebody

45:05

You know if I was in your in your shoes I would ask them for that kind of information and and having just started going there

45:11

He may not have that he may have to start doing some looking around to get that information But that's that's the thing that would be most important for me all right, so I Not just give me a brief description.

45:26

If you could we were talking with Peter last Week who also is there in in Germany?

45:34

Secularism especially in northern Europe by far the the majority report any longer

45:42

Many people have come back from visiting Wittenberg and places like that and and have reported that the the cradle of the

45:51

Reformation the vast majority of people who live there have almost no knowledge of it any longer or Really care anything about it one way or the other and that it's very difficult to to plant

46:03

Churches and to see churches growing is that is that how you would see things there? Oh?

46:09

Yeah, sadly that is the fact It's even Churches that we would call free churches that are not from the state religion

46:22

Yeah, you find all sorts of Strange teachings so somehow

46:30

I feel that we have started to import things like Emergent church or purpose driven ism

46:41

Into Germany even though I'm thinking didn't we have them once before in the 20s already?

46:49

old heresies rehashed neo -orthodoxy So yes, it's it's very hard to start a church that would not be recognized by the government

47:02

Especially since people don't see it as a church. They see it as a club religious club and mostly as a cult

47:08

Really interesting interesting, but obviously state church ism has not exactly produced a healthy church has it

47:16

I don't know. I mean they are dying out there people are not going there anymore and one of my professors of Old Testament Who always compares the

47:26

Old Testament directly with the Grimm's fairy tales? And says well, you know we have all these nice stories

47:34

But you know, what's really sad that you young people don't come here anymore to listen to them. Mm -hmm

47:41

They just don't understand. Yeah. Well, if you have YouTube and all these stories are not true

47:47

Why would I come to church exactly exactly? Yeah Wow well

47:54

But you know you still have a promise that Christ is still building his church and he still has his people.

48:02

Of course what you you are living in is the the wreckage of Generational Christianity, there is no such thing and whenever we get that idea that somehow it is just simply passed down culturally or In any other way other than the work of the

48:19

Spirit of God and bringing true Heartfelt repentance into the heart of someone you see it all around you and I you know

48:26

I would love to get over to Germany. I want to get over to Germany. I've been to to the UK and you see

48:34

Not as extreme, but you still see it It's so striking to see these monuments to see the names of men that you know

48:42

Were were Christians and what they live for that's still etched in the stone

48:47

But the people walking by don't even see it. They have no understanding of it.

48:52

They have no connection with it anymore It's it's it's sad. It really is sad to see that it is and I had a friend who who went on a tour over in Germany last summer well a year ago this summer and He called me at like six o 'clock in the morning which was sometime in the afternoon or something over there and he was standing at the

49:13

At the very door in Wittenberg the castle church door in Wittenberg and He was quite choked up, but he also pointed out that he was completely alone

49:25

He had to play he had to place to himself You know there it's pretty much people coming from outside the area that find those places to be

49:32

Highly significant anymore not so much the people that actually live there. It's it's a tragedy and it's sad, but we we will pray for the the the church there and your faithfulness because that's what you're called to be even in the midst of unfaithfulness all around you so Definitely definitely pray for you

49:50

Thomas Well, thank you, and yes I am praying that you will come over here because that would be great if you could come for a debate

49:58

There'll be even a bigger blessing because that's one of the big things here, too that a lot of the churches

50:05

Do slide into Arminian theology and even kick out people who would?

50:11

Try to defend the doctrines of grace so well if you if you've got If you can put together a couple people that would contact me, you know we can try to get folks back here to help

50:24

Pay the freight to get over there As long as we can find the places to do it at I would

50:30

I would really enjoy that opportunity Because it would be one of the few places I can get to Go where I'd actually be able to have some earthly idea what in the world everybody was talking about It would be and it would be great for my

50:42

German to get a chance to to Spend a little time over there and Abandon English long enough to get my vocabulary back.

50:49

That's the main thing that goes when you when you don't use it, but We'll hope the Lord will open at that door up Thomas, and thanks.

50:57

Thanks for your call Thank you for taking my call. Okay. God bless. God bless. Bye. Bye All right.

51:03

Thank you very much for that It is It's I don't know

51:09

Maybe it's just because I'm getting to be an old fogey but it still amazes me that I can sit here in Phoenix and Talk with someone from Germany and it sounds like he's sitting next to me.

51:20

You know, that is just You know, I know young people today. They've grown up with this so they don't realize

51:29

How amazing that is? But it is an amazing thing. So anyhow,

51:35

I enjoy hearing from our German listeners and our folks over in in Europe, especially via Skype.

51:45

I promise if any French Listeners call in. I will not even try Jim about James that's about it.

51:54

That's I've often I've often before we go to Dabney. I've often I've often pointed out that French, you know, and we've got wonky and channel who who wants to move to France we don't understand this but he wants to move to France and I've often said now

52:10

I took both German and French But I took three years of German high school and I took front

52:16

German in college as well So I have a good foundation that but I took French the same time I was taking German in college bad idea very bad idea because you're learning the same vocabulary

52:25

But in two different languages and if you've already got one language down pretty well It just blows the other one right out of your brains. But the worst part is the

52:32

French don't pronounce half their language Je parle to par your par new parlons will parlay in power.

52:41

Now. I just conjugated to speak in French and each one of those piles was spelled differently

52:48

But you couldn't tell because they just forget about the last half of the word which in German they don't do

52:54

They actually pronounce the entire word now it ends up sounding really pretty because you know how to say

53:00

I love you in French, right? Je t 'aime Je t 'aime isn't it? I mean is it you just am it just sounds so, you know, you know, how you say?

53:08

I love you in German ish liba deesh Ish liba deesh

53:16

So so one sounds more romantic than the other but the other you want to build cars with you know, I mean

53:22

It's very specific, you know That's why I like German because I know what someone's saying.

53:28

They're pronouncing the whole word. Yeah, but there is a good point To be made there the other you don't want building cars

53:37

They did try that and boy it was a mess wasn't it? Oh, man, no Boy, are we getting all the hate mail from all our all our

53:45

French friends and wonky definitely, too Few minutes here. Let's talk with Dabney.

53:51

Hi Dabney. How's it going? I'm pretty good I Quick comment then question

54:00

Comment being thanks for the video you posted the other day. I just had a conversation with someone very close to me who is totally unaware of the

54:08

Ergin situation, but As they've been able to dig in a little bit more and be able to see all those videos.

54:15

They're very helpful. So, thank you yeah, well, I wish I didn't have to post any more of them, but given the fact that the man just seems to Be going right back to where he was before You know, who knows but that's very different from the topic of your question

54:32

Constantine and the Council of Nicaea Yes, sir Reading a true.

54:37

We're in church history right now. I got a book It's called a summary of Christian history by Robert Baker and John Landers third edition published by B &H academic

54:48

Okay In the book they present Constantine as a as someone who presided over the council at Nicaea and They present him as picking

54:59

Out of the two sides or the two main sides that were there picking arbitrarily which one was to be the

55:08

Orthodox position and Then that that's how it was picked and so that's why

55:16

The Trinity came out of Nicaea was because Constantine arbitrarily picked that one over the

55:23

Aryan view Yeah, that's and and you said this is

55:29

B &H as in Broadman Holman, yeah Wow what a shame

55:37

That's just absurd historically speaking. I mean certainly at the close of the council

55:45

Constantine Favors the the position taken by the vast majority of the council, but very shortly after that when for his own political

55:57

Purposes it seems it's better to support the people who opposed Nicaea the Aryans he did and so but but the idea that all those bishops and whether they're 318 that's what tradition says but but However many hundreds of bishops were there the idea that they would just simply bow down before the

56:21

Roman Emperor and allow him to Determine what they believe about who

56:27

Jesus Christ is given that this took place a grand total of 12 years after 313 the peace of the church and the fact that there have been many of them

56:38

Who were there who continued to bear in their bodies the wounds that they had suffered during persecution the idea that he could just come along and arbitrarily

56:48

And that's and that's what they used they use the term arbitrarily. Well, that's just absurd So you use the word arbitrarily well

56:54

Then that's a book that is worthy of being sent over to the guy in Florida to be burned because it's it's it's absurd

57:03

And and and he'll get in much less trouble and you know burning that But that's just that that is just absurd.

57:09

I mean if you look even at Real quickly. Here's the quote. Everyone knew that the decision in the council had been arbitrary

57:17

That's just ridiculous All you have to do just look at I can see the cover of the book.

57:25

It's is it Kelly? It might be Kelly's Kelly's work on the creeds. Yeah, look at Kelly's work on the creeds just read the

57:32

The correspondence that Eusebius was Accountable for in regards to the term homoousius and his concerns about his home church and their understanding of it

57:41

Just that is enough to demonstrate that the use of the term arbitrary is is just a complete

57:49

Abandonment of historical reality. I I just don't know how someone can come up with something like that. But JND Kelly is early

57:56

Christian doctrine speak to that at all or a little bit But this is his work on the creeds and that's a that's a a larger work and that that's available as well.

58:05

Okay? All right, well, thank you for listening to the program today

58:14

Don't see anything getting in the way of us being here on Thursday Lord willing

58:20

So we'll be back for the afternoon evening program. Thanks to all of our callers again from all around the world and Milwaukee Well, we'll go ahead and include that in the in the global sphere of things great great questions on the program today

58:36

We'll be back on Thursday. See you then I believe we're standing at the crossroads

58:51

Let this momentous flow away We must contend for the faith above us fought for we need a new reformation day

59:05

Is The dividing line has been brought to you by alpha and omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602

59:38

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59:43

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59:49

Where you'll find a complete listing of james white's books tapes debates and tracks Join us again this thursday afternoon at 4 p .m.