June 20, 2006

Apologetics, Blog Criticism, and the Limits of Minutiae

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White.

Yes, indeed eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number. That is a toll-free number means it doesn't cost you anything to call it and We have of course Invited to all of the many many many people.

Who have. I think one of just one of the blog entries over Jimmy Akins blog has a hundred and twenty five comments on it. I'm not sure if that's the one where everybody went nuts on Peter Stravinsky's or not.

I don't think it is. I think I was a different one. So I don't know how many comments have been garnered but If you were to believe just a small portion just a small percentage of what you would read over there in the comment section.

You would. If you saw me walking by on the street, you would you would hide your children's eyes and spit upon me. That would be the only thing.

To be able to. You know, so I think the the better description would be something along the lines of the Grinch. Yeah.

Yeah, you definitely resembles the Grinch hide your Christmas presents or something because here comes white. It's It's a it's a pretty amazing thing to To read that stuff from people who not only do not know me, but have never even read one of my books most have never even listened to a debate and 99 .9 of them would not have the temerity to pick up a phone and Try to substantiate what they were saying if their life depended on it.

But they could at that that phone number eight seven seven seven five three three three four one anyway. It normally comes out this time of the day on Tuesday's the Carl Keating e-letter and I just got it.

Let's see 25 minutes ago actually according to my time stamp here and We have here an interesting little notation there's a reference to Mark Shay's blog article on Some thoughts on the apologetics subculture and I think I got a brief mention.

I popped over to it and It made reference to When a guy adopts the handle pras apology on you pretty much know where this guy's sense of identity is invested. He knows Greek and you don't he eats and sleeps apologetics.

He will fill your screen with enough gaseous. Asked you to fill the Hindenburg in pursuit of the exact parsing and declension of house. Who all the while asking if your credentials are as big as his credentials problem is the reference to house?

Who is actually to Eric Svensson not to me and I don't think Eric uses prasapalogy answers a tabbit of confusion there but I I follow the link over and it is the reason that the the article is so long is because Eric was responding to Robert's and Janice and you may recall that funny story where some Janice right around the same time as the mr. X Catastrophe Talk about the Hindenburg.

There was there is the Hindenburg of some Genesis credibility going up in flames, but right around the same time He was Basically saying that this this one fella was going to take out Eric's research on house who?

Who and the guy doesn't actually read Greek and So, so it does take a little bit of work to respond to someone who's basically throwing stuff your direction. And they don't actually know what they're talking about it.

It actually takes less words to respond to someone who does know what they're talking about than someone who doesn't. That's been my experience because you have to explain everything you have to go. No, actually, that's not what that word means is and here's what it was does mean and etc, etc.

So I understand that but the Keating Keating says among other things mark me moans a tendency among some Catholic and not a few Protestant apologists to get bogged down in minutia as an example refers to a discussion about the interpretation of the Greek behind the word until at Matthew 125 and you were not until she had brought forth her firstborn son.

The link mark provides takes you to an Interminable tit-for-tat between a Protestant and a Catholic that's between Eric and Robertson Janice. Read just the first few paragraphs you won't be able to get through the whole thing.

What will come to mind is Macbeth's soliloquy in Act 5? It is a tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury signifying nothing the writer in this case of Protestant. But Catholics have done the same offers up thousands of words 19 ,000 of them in fact my word processor count 18 8 something That supposedly demonstrated his understanding of until is true and then his Catholic opponents understanding is false.

In fact the most he can do hope to do is to prove that this particular Catholic committed an error here or there. He can't and doesn't prove that the traditional Catholic understanding of until is wrong such a waste of time.

Karl Keating writes. Look, I'm an apologist and I like engaging in apologetics. But there are limits there are limits to what apologetics can accomplish and there are limits to my patience when I come across a 19 ,000 word dispute about the meaning of a single term.

I don't think this is impressive work. I think this guy needs to get a life. Well, if anything is this does seem to sort of be the Catholic answers mentality. Now that doesn't mean that I don't get frustrated with Things that go on forever and ever and ever but there are some pretty long articles on my website, especially in response to Robertson Janice, especially in regards to John 6 and The massacre of the the syntax and grammar of that particular text.

That I haven't count up the number of words but when you get to about the third round and you're quoting what the other guy said that sort of artificially inflates things if you Actually went through and just found out how many words you yourself were writing.

It's probably not could be nearly as big but Keating definitely doesn't get into that. But then again Keating doesn't respond almost anything you say and rebuttal to him I've I've Refuted many things that he said I've documented errors have played in his statements on the air and demonstrated that you know what he was saying was just simply untrue and You never hear a response because basically they don't really care about what people are saying about them.

They're just gonna keep saying the same things if it's wrong. Well, you know fine, but you know, that's just just how things go and their audience isn't overly concerned about that. In fact, one of the comments that I read on Jim Higgins blog a little while ago About an hour ago was someone complaining James White always says his exegesis is right and I stopped and thought for a second Say it's wrong my exegesis is wrong.

Now. Do you like me? Well if you like me then These the standards that I was seeing in the in the thought processes of much of the commentary over there was was basically Unless you will say that that in all probability you're wrong and unless you will accept our claims to authority right up front and unless you'll just basically adopt our viewpoint of What Protestants how Protestants should basically bow down to the to the Roman Catholic system? then we're just gonna say you're a mean terrible horrible nasty person and and and One of the arguments was was you try to make your Catholic apologists look bad by pronouncing Greek different than they do.

Oh My goodness, I was waiting for one that says, you know what you've you've shaved your head just as a cheap debating trick. No, there's there's no more logic or rationality the rest of this stuff like whoa Man, that's it's okay.

All right. I Sort of understand how how President Bush feels. Because I don't think President Bush could say anything Without the press going after him and I think it's it's pretty much the same Same thing there.

So I did find that rather rather intriguing and by the way if we if we want to Be aware of the nuttiness going on in the world right now. Okay, just there was a light on number six it was on I don't know didn't know why that was there.

And so I was trying to get your attention, but you're probably playing around with with the phone lines and stuff. Oh, you're waiting to see and seeing where all those folks that were criticizing me. Yeah, just making sure the phone lines are working.

Yep, they're all working. Okay good. Well, I remember one of my first exposures to liberal theology was back when I was at a Southern Baptist Church and I hadn't I Hadn't I don't think I had gone to well, no, I was in seminary.

So maybe this wasn't one of the first ones, but maybe it's one of the first really practical ones. And a friend of mine was running a TV camera I actually believe it or not did run television camera when I was a younger person actually got paid to do so and Wasn't wasn't wasn't too bad.

Yeah James White equates himself the President United States. Yes, that's exactly what you're gonna. That's exactly what you're gonna see. Quite sure that's a soundbite. That's a soundbite. There. I am.

Yep. I understand President Bush say thanks. He's the president now. Anyway, a friend of mine was running a television camera at the PC USA Convention, which that year was in Phoenix I think if I recall not couldn't have been 89.

No, it must have been before May 86 somewhere around there anyway. And he was telling us about the debate over Homosexuality at this particular convention, I remember I actually ran camera for one session at The PC USA Convention when it was a debt the downtown Convention Center.

This was I don't know when this was it had been many years since I had run camera. They called me up to said we really need a camera said look I haven't run camera in years. Make sure to put me on the one farthest away.

And of course it put me on the one right down front and which is much harder. You're having to you know track people and stuff and and they had these four microphones set up To represent north south east and west and had these prayers and every single prayer bless us gay and straight.

You know heterosexual homosexual blah blah blah. I mean, it's just all they ever talked about and So This this friend was telling me this was back in the 80s about these debates that they were having and and how the Unfortunately the homosexual group sat right behind him while he was running camera and how uncomfortable he was with all the things are being said.

And so on so forth. Well We shouldn't be overly shocked then at At a link that was provided to me this afternoon Fox News Alternatives to Father Son and Holy Spirit may come for Presbyterians. You haven't heard this yet, have you?

Birmingham, Alabama. I'm surprised they even allowed him in Alabama to be honest with you the Divine Trinity Father Son and Holy Spirit. Could also be known as mother child and womb. Or rock Redeemer friend at some Presbyterian Church USA services under an action Monday by the church's National Assembly Delegates the meeting voted to receive a policy paper and gender inclusive language for the Trinity a step short of approving it.

That means church officials can propose Experimental liturgies with alternative phrasings for the Trinity, but congregations won't be required to use them. This does not alter the church's theological position, but provides an educational resource to enhance the spiritual life of our membership.

Legislative committee chair Nancy Oldhoff and Iowa laywoman Said during Monday's debate on the Trinity if I may just comment Briefly when you have an Iowa laywoman debating about these issues that might tell you where your problem is.

Hello. The assembly narrowly defeated a conservative bid to refer the paper back for further study. Friends if it was a conservative bid it would have been to anathematize. Everybody who had worked on the paper in the first time that would be the conservative bit, okay?

A panel that worked on the issue since 2000. Can you imagine? Working on this 2000. Wow there's a there's an investment of life. I Worked on the issue since 2000 said the classical language of the Trinity should still be used well but added that Presbyterians also should seek fresh ways to speak of the mystery of the triune God to Expand the church's vocabulary of praise and wonder.

One reason is that language limited to the father and son has been used to support the idea that God is male and that men are superior to women the panel said. Conservatives responded that the church should stick close to the way.

God is named in the Bible. Oh wow. And Noted that Jesus's most famous prayer was addressed to our father. Here's okay, if you hope you're sitting down folks besides mother child and womb and rock Redeemer friend proposed Trinity options drawn from biblical material include lover beloved and love creator Savior sanctifier King of Glory Prince of Peace spirit of love.

Early in Monday's business session the Presbyterian Assembly sang a revised version of familiar doxology Praise God from whom all blessings flow that avoided male nouns and pronouns for God. At which point I would you know the Part of me it goes at which point fire and brimstone came down from heaven.

That's the end of our report. But that's not what happened.

You're you're looking. I don't want to give them any ideas, but did anybody come up with tree bark and sap.

Actually, we were coming up with a number of them in channel.

That's that seemed quite. We have to include the pantheist in there.

Well, we. That that would be inclusive and.

Embracing and emergent and accepting and those are all good words. Allegedly. Apparently. Yeah now the the. The the one that you were operating the camera at. I remember there was a famous one right back.

Then where they were at the end they brought in all the Indian tribes. No that was at the beginning. Well, that was in the beginning. Oh, you tell the whole story. They had the. What is the medicine man or the shaman, okay?

Here's what happened ray at a Christian event. Here's here's what happened. It was the beginning of the. You know what it wasn't. I need to I need to make it. I need to make a correction here. It was not PC USA.

It was the Anglicans. It was I'm sorry it was the Episcopalians which are in the news anyways. So you know six one half dozen there they seem to be can competing with one another as to how fast they can be become you know apostate and.

It was the it was the Episcopalians and as you know when you're running television camera. You have these headsets on you have a little microphone so you can reach down and on your belt or on your you know somewhere.

You've put this little switch and hit this little switch. And you can talk back to the to the guy who's in charge and say hey. You know I can't move over there because of this that or the other thing so.

We're sitting here, and we had seen this being practiced. Okay, and then we saw the the Indian medicine men coming in and it's pure paganism, okay? I mean this is there's nothing Christian about this they're coming in they're evoking their pagan gods.

And and this is supposed to be a blessing because we're in Phoenix and when people come to Phoenix. They figure you got to do something about Native Americans and things like that. And so what I did is I?

I knew that most of the guys in this group were Christians and in fact. I figured everybody on the cameras were Christians and. So when the when the medicine men were coming in to do their thing I? Switched on my little microphone.

I said okay guys. Here's what's going to happen. I figure that the roofs coming down, so I figured these tripods are pretty pretty strong. So I suggest you dive underneath them when you hear the rumbling as the roof comes in to flatten this place.

And of course the directors like you know you know, but that was that was what I suggested so it was. Yeah, it was quite the interesting whenever you see those guys mumbling something in there in their thing.

You think they're saying something really important like I can't get that shot because there's somebody no. Normally it has something to do with something completely different than what's going on at that particular point in time, so yeah.

There's there's what the PC USA is up to. Mother child and womb I Just have a hard time thinking too many guys were involved with that one.

It's just I don't I don't see that happening. I like the one somebody just put in channel lock stock and barrel. Yes there you go.

Yes the channel is currently exploding with very insightful interesting discussions of various sundry things. Anyway the phone lines still working. They look at looking looking like they're okay there.

Yeah, the yep looking good, okay? Don't understand, but Yep, that's a dial tone. I that is a healthy dial tone without anyone connected. Well anyway, I got I got an email this morning. And it was a fella asking me a question Concerning Gregory Boyd it's been a while since we've talked about the open theists here on the dividing line some of you may recall that we Did a debate against one of the leading open theists?

Down in Orlando. That was what 2001 I believe Been five years could it possibly have been been five years since we did that because that was 2001 wasn't it? I think it was 2001 anyway. We Debated the issue of open theism, and it's still out there Gregory Boyd is still out there promoting his stuff and fellow contacted me this morning and was asking about a claim made by Gregory Boyd in regards to John chapter 9.

John chapter 9 and If you recall the the story Jesus as he passed by he saw a man blind from birth and his disciples asked him rabbi who sinned This man or his parents that he would be born blind. Jesus answered It was neither that this man sinned nor his parents.

But it was so the works of God might be displayed in him. We must work the works of him who sent me as long as it is day Night is coming when no one can work while I'm in the world I am the light of the world.

When he had said this he spout on the ground and made clay of the spittle and applied the clay to his eyes and said To him go wash in a pool of Siloam which translated means scent so he went away and washed and came back seeing and you know the rest of story he's brought before the Pharisees and they they don't believe that he was the blind man and and things like that and So there was a discussion.

There's a discussion in Boyd's book God at war and He quotes from Calvin. And I'd like to thank once again the uber librarian for getting me this very quickly. As I have mentioned a number of times before my library is currently Non-functional and so I wanted to comment on this but I wanted to have the context.

I want to have more of the context than the email provided to me and So I I sent the uber librarian a note That gave the book and the pages and so I have here in front of me. Thanks to the uber librarian and she knows who she is and like it like I told her.

When we get to be a big like supported ministry with lots of lots of supporters and stuff. She's she is officially in charge of research because if you need something from the uber librarian poof it's it's there and I'd tell you some other stories about the the great successes of the uber librarian, but so we didn't have time anyway.

Yes, it does sound like a superhero uber librarian superhero Superman uber librarian. They all go along the same lines a little different superpowers. However, slightly different superpowers with the uber librarians.

Anyhow, I have on my screen the PDF of of the the page pages in Boyd's discussion and he he quotes from from Calvin and he quotes from James Boyce as well. Let me just give you the the citations here.

Calvin says for so long as he was blind. There was exhibited in him an example of the divine severity from which others might learn to fear and to humble themselves. It was followed by the benefit of his deliverance in which the wonderful goodness of God was reflected.

He reminds them in general That this cause of God must be abundantly seen as true and lawful in the theater of the world when God glorifies his name. Nor have men any right to argue with God when he makes them the instruments of his glory in both ways whether he appears as merciful or severe.

Now obviously unless you are immersed in biblical theology that kind of thing is going to Definitely cause you a problem and Boyce Basically flows along the same lines when he says. Would God Almighty permit a man to be stripped of his family and all his possessions to be struck with such illness.

He would find himself sitting in ashes. This is talking about Job be moaning that he had ever been born just so that God himself might be vindicated. Would God permit a man to be struck with total blindness throughout the better part of his life so that in God's own time?

He might become the object of a miracle performed by the Lord Jesus Christ. There's the blind man. John 9 in the light of the Word of God we answer not only that God would do such things, but that he has done them and indeed continues to to do them now.

Boyd rejects this and He Basically says that there is a general gospel Understanding that afflictions are the work of the devil. Now of course neither Calvin nor Boyce would dispute that. They would say however that God ordained the ends and the means.

And that as Job illustrates he has control Over the works of the enemy of our soul and Job does sort of prove that to be the case. But here is here is the the point that I was being asked about in the In the email that I was given this morning.

Basically here's his argument. But the verse should not be interpreted. This is page I'm afraid I'm gonna lose the whole thing here. No, okay good page 233. Storming the gates of hell. God at war. Gregory Boyd.

I was wasn't sure if hitting a button would Mess me up anyway but the verse should not be interpreted as Suggesting that God's will is behind this man's blindness in the first place, and this is my third point.

The original verse now notice what notice how this is said the original verse does not say that he was born blind. So that God's works might be revealed and quote now. That is sort of what I just read in the new American Standard.

Jesus answered It was not this man's sin nor his parents, but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him so. That is the new American Standard translation, but he says no the original verse Does not say that quote he was born blind so that God's works might be revealed and quote the Greeks simply has Hinnah With the heiress subjunctive passive of fun or uh-oh to manifest and can readily be translated as now I stop right there.

Obviously I have absolutely no problem at all in the discussion of the original languages in my writings and There are a number of books where I engage those original writings Fairly extensively especially in my work on justification for example.

Yeah, no problem at all but just looking around the pages here and Remembering the fact that open theists for example have glommed on to the King James version of Psalm 139 to try to get around The the teaching that that's our days have been determined by God they they they.

If you listen to the debate that I had with One leading open theists a number of years ago as he has he put it He said look at you Calvinists have had a lot of time to work out your theology we're still working ours out that was actually meant to be one of the corrections and responses to one of my questions and It is true that you have Hinnah here, and you do have the heiress subjunctive passive of fun or uh-oh.

But When he doesn't go on to then explain why? Telling you that this is the heiress subjunctive passive is relevant. That's when I start getting worried if I'm gonna give you information About what the original text is saying I'm gonna try to limit it to the information that's actually necessary for the proper interpretation of the text or for the substantiation the point that I'm trying to make and The a Hinnah clause in the vast Majority of the times that it is used in the Testament Hinnah Generally means in order that it's used with the subjunctive which is why this is in the subjunctive.

It's used the subjunctive to express Meaning or purpose it's the general way of introducing a Purpose clause with the result that for the purpose of purpose and result clauses Hinnah. That's something you start really focusing in on very very early on in your Greek study and So it sounds Really impressive, but then it says and can readily be translated as quote.

But let the works of God be manifested end quote as is certainly the case in Mark 5 23 Ephesians 5 33 2nd Corinthians 8 7 as is likely the case in Mark 2 10 5 12 10 51 and a host of other passages and As is frequently the case in the Septuagint and later post-apostolic writings the Hinnah here should be taken as forming an imperative not a purposive clause in.

In this light Jesus is simply saying that in contrast to the misguided moralistic speculations of the disciples. The only thing that matters concerning this man's blindness is that God can overcome it and thus be glorified through it now.

Why don't any translations render it that way then would become the question. Secondly is there such a thing as an Imperatival Hinnah. Well there is there is and in fact so that it's not just me talking let's look at what a Friend of mine by the name of Dan Wallace has said about the imperatival Hinnah.

This is on pages 476 and 477 of his syntactical Grammar grammar that I used in teaching Greek syntax and second-year Greek and Greek exegesis at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary. He says the subjunctive is rarely not not exactly what you heard from Boyd is it?

The subjunctive is rarely used after Hinnah with the force of a command. Although structurally this looks like looks to be a subordinate use of subjunctive. It occurs in clauses where the subjunctive is the main verb.

Thus this usage could just as easily be treated under independent use of the subjunctive and he gives. Well, he gives the same examples that Boyd gave mark 523. Where my little girl isn't is near death.

Come and place your hands on her Hinnah Elthone come and place your hands on her that she may be healed and live. Ephesians 533 Matthew 20 33 mark 10 51 1st Corinthians 729 2nd Corinthians 8 7 Galatians 2 10 Revelation 14 13, which he did not mention but.

There are other pot there a couple other possible references listed interestingly enough. Only one and this is listed under possible references is John 1 8 only at John 4 and 14 31 15 25. He doesn't even identify those necessarily being the Falling under this this category and this would probably pretty much it for the entirety of the New Testament.

What you'll notice is that of the examples that Boyd gives and that Wallace gives that are at least Probably in this category none are in John. None are in this very gospel. And so this would be an Argument on Boyd's part that this is the only one but there's there's a real problem here and I'll close this.

We'll take our break and then go to our phone calls. There's there's one problem with it. It makes no sense in the context. Let's try to fit this in somehow Jesus answered. It was neither this man sinned nor his parents stop and thought.

But In fact, you can't even put but there you just simply have to go. Let's work the works of God. Let's work the works of God to be displayed in him. I mean it you can't fit any of this together. It makes No sense it you have to insert a complete break after the word parents and What are you left doing with with Allah.

Allah is clearly functioning as an adversative here and that dr Boyd is why translations don't render it that way is because here you've got a glorious example of Looking at one word just one word and going well over in these other places.

This one word could be understood like this. But words don't come in singles it's similar to Remember what we mentioned earlier about Karl Keating and and Mark Shea and the conversation between Eric Svensson Roberts and Janice Roman Catholic apologists have gone around saying well, you know a house it look over here.

It's used about me call and she did not have children until the day of her death and obviously she didn't have start having them. Afterwards, ha ha ha ha and everybody chuckles and ooh. Wow. He he knows the word house.

But as Eric Svensson pointed out house isn't in Matthew 125 alone. It's in Matthew 125 with who? House who is there is there significance there? Has anyone bothered to look at house who and the fact that this phrase has a particular meaning we have phrases in English Particular meanings and the same thing is true here.

You have a lot introducing this last phrase but In order that it might be manifested the works of God might be manifested in him. So we need to keep that in mind. I'm hearing a Sound I'm not sure where it's where it's coming from, but it's not coming from me.

I just wanted to make sure you didn't think that was coming for me. Anyhow, let's go ahead and take our break and then go to our phone calls 877 -753 -3341. We'll be right back.

The Trinity Debate in Presbyterian and Episcopal Churches

What is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book. Chosen but free. A new cult. Secularism. False prophecy scenarios. No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism.

He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent. Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant. In his book the potter's freedom James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply.

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate.

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so-called Extreme Calvinism defines what the Reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel first is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture the potter's freedom a Defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen but free you'll find it in the Reformed theology section of our bookstore.

At a omen org this portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God.

The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 26 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org. Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in their book the same-sex Controversy.

James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject. Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including Genesis Leviticus and Romans.

Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner. They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people.

The same-sex controversy. Defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at a omen or other pilgrims progress. It's not an easy way. It's a journey.

And Welcome back to the dividing line. So we got about 23 minutes actually less than that one. She'd throw in you know the closing statement and rich has got to get his stuff in Steve camp has to sing contractual obligations stuff like that, but about 20 minutes left to go in the dividing line and we have invited folks who have been Joining what might be called the feeding frenzy over at the Jimmy Akin blog I suppose last year.

It was the envoy blog and we other times. It's been Well the web boards at envoy and other times. It's been the Catholic answers forums, and it was Wow got to get everybody going and one of the folks I mentioned specifically by name was Shane, and I have a feeling Shane that's probably the same Shane that's calling from Massachusetts right now am I guessing correctly that's right.

Hi. How you doing? I'm good. How are you doing all right? Hey, I was just scanning down some of the comments here, and I ran across one from June 14th posted by Shane that says Mr.. Staples got killed in his debate with mr. White if I recall due to some less than honest strategies on mr.. White's part I was wondering what less than honest strategies.

I may have utilized with poor poor Tim Staples.

Well in regards to that specific instance I couldn't. In fact I Wanted to call in because I wanted to be able to let you know that I wasn't Just you know posting and running there. I wasn't trying to hide behind the keyboard or whatnot.