Waco: A Brief Overview W/@CharismaticCheetah | Cultish

Introduction to the Waco Conversation and Cultish Ministry Support

Hey, what's up, everyone? This is Jeremiah Roberts, one of the co-hosts here at Cultist. I know you've missed all of us on your podcast catcher on YouTube here on Tuesdays. This conversation is going to be a fun one.

It's with our good friend, the Charismatic Cheetah. We're giving a very super sky-view overview of the Waco story. Eventually, we're going to put together probably a 10-part series because there's so many areas to it.

It's going to be a really fun conversation. Hope you all enjoy it. Before we start the podcast, I want to let you know that one of the reasons why we have been releasing episodes as much as we would like to is because our goal at Cultist is to be a 100 crowdfunded ministry.

As of right now, we only have an operating around 15 to 20 of what we need to operate functionally as a ministry. If you go to our website, thecultistshow .com, there's a direct link where you can become a partner with us.

We ask if you haven't been blessed by this content the last five years. To get Cultist back to where we can release content on a weekly basis, we ask that we prayerfully consider partnering with Cultist, giving generously so we can get the gospel out into the kingdom of the cults, be able to bless people, and avoid any sort of paywall.

That way, that content can be for free so we can have it be crowdfunded and we can all be in this all together. This is a conversation we had very recently with our good friend, the Charismatic Cheetah.

It was an interview he did with us on his channel. We really enjoyed the conversation, so we thought we'd just re-share it with you all. A very sky overview of the whole Waco conversation, the event that took place 30 years ago.

Eventually, we're going to make it our own 10-part series, but there's so many interesting variables in play. We hope you all enjoy this general overview of the whole Waco-David Koresh conversation and enjoy the podcast.

The Channel Introduction and the Waco Topic

Hello, everyone. Welcome to Charismatic Cheetah. My name is Michael Young. Typically on this channel, I talk about biblical continuationism, how to think about those spiritual gifts, the charismata, in a biblical way, how to not think about them in a biblical way, how to practice them, and how to not practice them.

Well, today, we have a very special guest on, or two of them, Jeremiah and Super Sleuth Andrew from Cultish. We're going to be talking about the 1993 Waco siege of the Branch Davidian compound, which was a cult led by David Koresh that ended in a disaster.

First of all, Cultish, these two guys, Jeremiah and Andrew, it's full circle that they're coming on my little podcast because I've been listening to them for a few years. I've really enjoyed their show and gotten a lot out of it, so I'll let them introduce themselves.

Who are y 'all guys? Who's a Super.

Sleuth? Who's Jeremiah? Yeah, who is a Super Sleuth? He has this strange Super Sleuth and inspector gadget that just sort of crawls around with a giant magnifying glass all up somewhere in Utah, the Super Secret Headquarters.

What's your location right now? Do you want to give us the location of the Super Secret Headquarters, Andrew, or what's the Super Sleuth all about?

Yeah, let's say that I live southeast of a big lake that sprawls across a super LGBTQ affirming community. How southeast? I'm not going to tell you, but if you want to use your mind muscles and flex them, you might be able to figure out where I'm at.

There's a target nearby as well. All right, so sounds crazy, but that's where my Super Secret Headquarters is, and yeah, that's me. I'm Andrew Songkrant, and I'm blessed to be able to be on this podcast today with our brother in Christ here, and I'm excited to talk about Waco, talk about David Koresh, aka Vernon Howell, but Jerry, give yourself a little introduction, brother.

Yeah, so if you've ever listened to the podcast, Cultish, you may have heard me say, my name's Jeremiah Roberts, one of the co-hosts here, which I am. I've been doing Cultish now. We launched back in October of 2018.

Mission and purpose of Cultish was to really kind of hone in and sort of emulate what the late Dr. Walter Martin did with the Christian Research Institute many, many years ago, trying to equip the church to give a biblical answer for the world of the cults and help Christians give a reason for their faith, and so the podcast in some ways has just been a way to sort of emulate what Walter Martin did as a Bible Answer Man.

I mean, we're nowhere near the walking library that Uncle Wally was back in the day, but this has just been a very privilege and a passion to be able to do this for the last five years, and like the amount of people who've been able to listen and the people we've been able to talk to, it's just sort of, I never imagined like all these years later that to be in the position that we are, it's a huge blessing, so it's really a portion, and there's a whole history too.

Apology of Studios was initially Apology of Christian Ministries way before Apology of Churches were planted, and that was intention though to even be a ministry to the cults. Just so you know, the original name for the Apology of Studios YouTube channel was Defend the Faith, which was just strictly counterculture apologetics, talking to Jehovah's Witnesses, talking to Mormons, stuff like that, and so just as, you know, Jeff's become a pastor, has had more pastoral responsibilities, and just while Apology of Radio is sort of tackling the issues of like abortion and just a lot more political, moral issues as well too, they want to have a section that has really laser focus on bringing the light of the gospel into the kingdom of the cults, the world of the occult, and that's kind of where that is, and kudos to Jeff Durbin, our pastor, he is the one who gave us the idea for the name.

We were like wrestling, we were wrestling with the name, like we're putting the show together, we were trying to find a name, and I could not find one for the life of me, and then Jeff said cultish. I'm like, oh my goodness, how have I not thought of that already?

So yeah, here we are, and it's a huge blessing, and I'm super, I'm really excited to talk about Waco, I've always wanted to cover it. The challenge is, there's so, like, we're going to talk for day, for me, like an hour, an hour and a half, there's so many, like, angles to the story, like how can you even encompass this in an hour and a half?

And we're just going to let the conversation go where it goes, but, you know, this is something that, for a lot of those sort of classic cult stories, you know, there's Jim Jones, there's Warren Jeffs, the Waco story is a bit more personal to me, because I'm someone who just lived through it, but I want to just not compare myself in any way to someone like David Thibodeau, or anyone like that.

I'm someone, I'll just maybe, this is how we'll jump into the conversation, I'm 11 years old, I kind of grew up in a very conservative Christian household, I grew up where, around guns, fired guns at a very young age, was always at the gun range, I went hunting, watched, you know, television shows, John Wayne movies, like shows like Gunsmoke and Bonanza, so on television, and on Clint Eastwood movies, and the movies that my parents would allow me to watch, I saw people getting shot, all the time, but I knew that, okay, this is something that's, there's a story being told, this is cinematic, I'm not, like, watching actual footage, I remember seeing the news report on February 28th, maybe it was the day after, when the initial raid happened, and we'll talk about the raid, I saw the video, anybody who knows about Waco has seen this footage, the ATF agent on the roof, and you see him on the roof, and all of a sudden, you see bullet holes go out the side of the wall, and then pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, and he gets hit, and he falls down, as an 11 year old kid, I immediately, like, tensed up, because I knew right away, the fourth wall was being broken, I saw someone being shot for real, and I was, you know, I was being homeschooled, my parents were homeschooling us, and so every single day, I would just kind of keep my tabs on, this is what's happening in the compound, there's a lot we'll talk about in regards to media, 51 days later, my dad yelled at me, like, he just yelled, Jeremiah, come to the living room, and so I ran in, because he knew that I was really enamored, I was reading the newspaper, the Arizona Republic, that was our local newspaper here in Arizona, and again, I'm only hearing the media, the FBI side of the story, the government side of the story, and sure enough, I saw Mount Carmel on fire, and I watched it burn down live on TV, I knew that there were men, women, and children inside of there, and as an 11 year old kid, I was horrified, and so yeah, it's just something that's very interesting looking back all these years later, there's a lot to learn from it,.

So I'll leave it at that. Absolutely, yeah, I mean, kind of my, I guess, history around Waco is, so I live, I grew up in Grandview, Texas, and I'm probably, I'm just a few miles north of there now, actually, where I'm living currently, but it's an hour drive from Grandview, Texas, where I grew up to my house, or vice versa, and so it's really close, we go to Waco pretty regular, me and my dad used to race third track in Waco, I was four years old, I guess, when it happened, I don't remember a lot, I remember the compound burning and seeing, like, I could see the compound when I was a kid, I remember that part, but where it became, I guess, personal to me, is I just always fought the narrative, like, they're a bunch of wackos, they killed themselves, they were, you know, cult leader, they, you know, he killed them all, blah, blah, blah, but when I was 19 years old, I had just became a Christian, I had moved to Gainesville, Florida, and my roommate, who was very much a conspiracy theorist and anti-government type dude, you know what I mean, cool guy, but just very libertarian, I guess, and he put me on to the Rules of Engagement documentary, and I remember watching that, and I was just horrified, I mean, I'm a 19 year old who just got some morals, and just got some understanding of, like, it was a very powerful moment for me, I guess, looking back, I didn't know it was, but it's kind of shaped my political view since then, so it's been a big deal, and then, but honestly, I had to quit thinking about it, because I remember being just so mad about it, just like, how could they let this happen, and there's no justice, you know, just really upset, so I kind of let it go, well, then, about two or three years ago, my wife's from Michigan, and her mom, my mother-in-law came into town to, you know, for Thanksgiving, and we went out to Waco, to where the site was, and of course, there's only, like, a church there with some pictures, and the pool, the homemade pool that they made still there, it's like a big empty cement, you know, tank, basically, and there's still Branch Davidians living out there, I mean, still, like, ladies running around in, not a lot, but a few, denim, you know, long denim skirts, and I just remember the feeling, there's something out there, it's heavy, you know, it's really heavy, it's spiritually just like, this was so bad, and it kind of reignited that, I can't believe this happened, and, you know, so, yeah, it's always been, it's nothing that's, like, been major until now, honestly, I'm really glad we're doing this, because I've been doing research, kind of cramming the last couple weeks to prepare, and I wake up, like, two or three times in the middle of the night, like, the last couple nights, like, my first thought is about Waco, so I'm really ready to maybe get this out of here, get it out of my head, but yeah.

Nice, what about you, Andrew, like,.

What was your first sort of, like, when did you first hear about Waco, the story of David Koresh, what was the first time you kind of heard about that, because people tend to find out about this,.

Even when it's, like, later on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like, I was more familiar as a kid with Jonestown, for some reason, my mom liked to tell me stories about Jonestown, I think maybe she watched some documentaries on it, or something like that, but in terms of Waco, I think the first time, it really piqued my interest when I was watching an X-Files episode, I believe it was titled The Field Where I Died, it's either in, like, season three or season four, where they're going to investigate this cult, I think it's like the cult of the seven stars, and there's a man who leads it called, like, Vernon Ephesian, or something, and they get, like, a tip that there's abused children and things like that happening over there at this location, and they get there, and eventually Mulder discovers that he's, like, reincarnated from a past life, where a civil war took place at the same location.

Anyways, I knew that that was kind of referencing Waco, in a sense, and I think that's the first time where I was like, huh, that's interesting, I want to know more about Waco, and then since meeting Jerry, and knowing that this has been such an integral part of his life, and his even spiritual development, he's talked to me for years about Waco, being excited to start doing, like, an in-depth study on the theology of David Koresh, of the Branch Davidians, which led us even into conversations with the Seventh Adventists, and before that, the Millerites, and things of that nature, but it all circles around how people view current events, which is shaped heavily upon someone's eschatology, which is what they believe the Book of Revelation would be talking about, or certain parts of Ezekiel, Zechariah, you name it, all over the place, because David Koresh went all over the Bible to try to say certain things, but it's important to understand that over time, a period of at least, I'd say, 40 or 50 years, the theology that Vernon Howell adapted was growing.

It didn't just come out of a vacuum, it didn't come out of nowhere, it had been growing for a while, but anyways, yeah, let's start unpacking this, let's get it out of your mind, Charismatic Cheetah, where do you want to start, brother?

Man, where I really want to start, and I would like to, maybe we should do like a, just a quick bird's eye view of what ways, people, there might be some people who live under a rock, or maybe they're really young.

That'd be really good. Bird's eye view, and then I do have my first question.

A Brief Historical Overview of Waco and the Branch Davidian Siege

Yeah, so let me give a quick super aerial overview. So you had 1993, the Clinton administration was brand new, they're just kind of getting things rolling, and not too long into the Clinton administration, you have the standoff at a, it was called Ruby Ridge, where you have the standoff that was incredibly botched, went bad, it was just, anyone can look that up, it just put the ATF in a very, very bad light, and they're kind of looking for some PR improvement, that led to them looking for some way to kind of make better their reputation, and also try and get some additional funding, because whenever there's a new administration, everyone tries to compete for funds, where that led to was Waco.

The connection there was that there was word that Koresh was stockpiling weapons, the ATF began investigating Waco, the ATF began investigating Waco because there was a delivery that was delivered by UPS, the package broke up when there were some grenade casings, the ATF then began investigating, that led to a raid called Operation Showtime, which was supposed to be just this kind of like a PR thing, it went incredibly bad, they lost the element of surprise, and it was all, it's very interesting, this shootout was all over the news.

Typically, when you think about, you know, you scroll through your Instagram or your social media, and you'll see sometimes those like cop shootout videos that last maybe five, six seconds, like a shootout usually is very, very quickly, and then someone draws, you empty your magazine, and it's over.

This is something that took place for hours, it took place for hours, and it's the most of ammunition fired between two parties since the Civil War. There's a lot of nuance between who fired first and who started the fight, we can get into that, but after several hours of fighting, they came to a ceasefire, that led to the FBI getting involved because six Branch Davidians were killed, you had four ATF agents that were killed, multiple wounded on both sides, including David Koresh.

There was a standoff, 51 days, went 51 days long, at the very end to, so start on February 28th, ended on the morning of April 19th, where the FBI tried to insert tear gas into the compound, the compound then caught on fire, which it burned down shortly thereafter, and I believe there were 76 that perished in the Branch Davidians, including men, women, and children.

Don't have the exact number of children that died off the forefront, but yeah, it just was a lot that happened, and then there was a lot of fallout after that, a lot of anti-government sentiment, a sentiment that happened, one of the people that was watching from the media area, there's a place where you couldn't, where everyone was allowed to kind of observe what was going on way far away from Mount Carmel, one of those people was Timothy McVeigh, not too long after that, I believe it was two years, one or two years after that, that's where the Oklahoma City bombing took place, and that was in many ways a revenge tactic against what happened, so yeah, it was something that really encompassed American history, when you think about, you know, in a social media age, we're looking at our phones, and we're looking at, you know, we can get information so quickly, it used to be right around the 90s, that's when cable television was really kind of coming to fruition, and so you had stories like the Menendez brothers, the O .J. Simpson trial, which took place later on, you just, you had these stories that really would capture people, and they realized that when we would have these unique stories, they would out, the ratings would outdo anybody, so very, very quickly after this operation went bad, it just became this national story worldwide, and that became thing, and that just made things even more difficult, and more pressure on the FBI to try and end this thing, but there's a lot even to learn too about, you know, language between how the FBI handled it, because they saw this as a, typically a hostage negotiation that would last eight to ten hours at the most, and they were viewing it from a very tactical standpoint, they weren't taking into account the religious convictions of the Branch Davidians, and them seeing this as fulfilled prophecy, and their test of their faith, I mean, David Thibodeau, who's one of those prominent survivors, he says that one of the reasons he didn't walk out during the negotiation, I was just listening to on the way here, is that he saw that, I said, why would I leave, I was seeing the scriptures being fulfilled right in front of my eyes, that's something the negotiators didn't take into account, so yeah, that's a super very aerial view, in case anyone's living under a rock, but yeah, so that's kind of a super aerial view, so I'll hand it back to you.

The Branch Davidian Body Count and the Role of Eschatology

Yeah man, so actually, I wrote the figures down actually, so it's 86 people total, four were federal agents, like ATF agents, 82 were Branch Davidians, and out of those 82 Branch Davidians, 28 children perished in that fire, but so speaking of religious, because that's the thing, is looking into this, it's like the FBI and the ATF, they didn't understand why they wouldn't come out, there's a lot more people, like 120 some odd people, I think, a lot of them, a good portion of them came out, but they just didn't come out, 51 days, they don't have a running water, they don't have electricity, the only phone line they have is going to the feds for negotiations, they're playing music outside the compound or the facility, with like dying rabbits, and boots were made for walking song, on repeat, bright lights, and so everything, they had every reason to leave, but it seems like the religious, something about David Koresh's theology kept them there, so Andrew, I think you're probably the one that knows the most about his theology, and this is the question I have the most, is who is David Koresh, and what exactly is, I mean, obviously we could spend four hours alone just on his theology, I'm sure, but who is David Koresh, and what, can you kind of explain maybe his seven seals, and exactly what his theological.

Beliefs were in a general way, if you can? Yeah, I'll do my best to explain it in an aerial view, just like Jerry did, because there's so many nuances, and so many complications, in terms of trying to understand a cult leader's eschatology, right?

This is a person, I want someone who's listening to understand, that could very easily twist you into a doctrinal pretzel, right? Vernon Howell was known to preach for hours on end, but remember, his theology didn't develop in a vacuum.

Hey, to clarify, Vernon Howell is David Koresh, correct? Correct, yeah, I like to use his actual name, and in terms of the theology, it's right, it wasn't created out of a vacuum, it didn't come out of anywhere, or nowhere, it came from somewhere, and there's a theology that developed, I'd say, starting with Victor Hudev, who was a Bulgarian, he left Bulgaria, which is modern-day Bulgaria, I forget what it was, but it was eventually excommunicated from the Seventh-day Adventist church, so it's just good to get a little overview of the history, right?

Leading up to Vernon Howell, who is David Koresh, so yeah, he emigrated to USA, from what is now called Bulgaria, at the age of 22, he joined the SDA church in 1919, in Illinois, later he moved to California, to be closer to Loma Linda, which is like the largest SDA community in the nation, so in the 1920s, he started rising through the ranks, and he would teach more, he became a Sabbath school teacher within the SDA, which is Seventh-day Adventism, by 1929 though, he finished his doctoral studies, and he formulated a book from his studies called The Shepherd's Rod, okay?

From this, it stirred up a quote-unquote, a great controversy within the Seventh-day Adventist organization, and if you've done any research on the Seventh-day Adventists, you hopefully understand that pun, but essentially, what he taught was that there was an elect group of 144 ,000 followers that would form a truly Reformed church, and that forming of his pure church was a prerequisite for Christ's return to earth, so these people that we're speaking of are believing that the end times are happening imminently, it's going to be happening soon, so just to give you an idea, we could think of Joseph Smith with Mormons, they're called the Latter-day Saints for a reason, right?

Joseph Smith believed, or at least he taught, that Jesus Christ would return in his lifetime, and it was even taught with presidents and prophets after that, that when they interpreted Joseph Smith's prophecy, yes, it meant within that generation, within that lifetime, they've now since recanted that position because it never happened, but the point I'm trying to make is that this is a group of people that had an eschatological certainty that the end was coming soon, okay?

Eventually, Victor Hudeff, he was excommunicated from the Seventh-day Adventists, and so what happens? He founded the Davidians in 1929 as a small Adventist Reform movement, and then in 1935, the establishment of Mount Carmel happened, but it wasn't the Mount Carmel that was actually put on fire, right?

Well, the fire happens because of the gas, the gas was able to ignite because there was so much powder in the house, whatever, but from the gas, so this is a different area. Anyways, Victor Hudeff, he finds the Branch Davidians in 1929, small Adventist Reform movement.

By 1959, Mount Carmel, the community had grown to approximately about 90 members, so he was viewed as the sole interpreter of biblical secrets by his followers, Victor Hudeff, and he would lead his followers to Jerusalem and Heavenly Canaan.

These are some of the beliefs within the early Branch Davidian movement, all right? He had a sudden death in 1955, I believe, and it shocked his followers, and it kind of just, his following, there's like, whoa, oh my goodness, our follower died, but his wife then took control, Florence, and I believe that even Florence had prophesied something with the imminent coming end of the world, but it never happened, so actually pretty early on in 1959, the Branch, well, they're not the Branch Davidians yet, but the Davidians almost fell apart in 1959, so it was a failed prophecy from Florence on April 22nd, 1959.

Again, they had 900 members at this time, which is way more than the 90 Victor had earlier, but when this happened, when Florence, her failed prophecy occurred, there was a man who saw the advantage of this because he was part of the movement already, and his name was Benjamin Rodin, and he claimed to be the sign that the Davidians were seeking for, and he discredited Florence, and he ended up taking control, and then they bought a smaller 77-acre portion called the New Mount Carmel, and Rodin's teachings, this is what he essentially taught, was he emphasized the significance of Israel's restoration as a precursor to Christ's return, he established a community in Israel before his death in 1978, but he eventually dies as well, and his wife takes over.

Now, this is where we start seeing the most important influences on Vernon Howell in terms of how the theology worked with the modern-day Branch Davidians, so Lois Rodin, when she takes power, what does she do?

Well, she has a revelation that the Holy Spirit is actually a woman, is actually feminine, and we end up seeing a development of modalism, in a sense, where it's hard to explain again, guys, because when we think, when we're listening to this, we're thinking in terms of biblical Christianity, so to try to think like a Branch Davidian, we have to unlearn everything we've learned right about God and the Bible and what the truth is, but essentially, the Godhead would be Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit would be the feminine aspect, right?

We're created in God's image, male and female, he created them, this is how they would explain this, okay? If you ever talk to a World Mission Society Church of God individual, they will use the very same passages to say that we have a Heavenly Mother, so the Branch Davidians take a lot of these passages as well, the Heavenly Mother, and they say that this is the Holy Spirit who is going to manifest herself in the end times and marry the Lamb.

Vernon Howell essentially taught near the end of his life in terms of the seven seals because he was interpreting these seals for the individuals while the end is occurring to them, right? Because that's what he's telling the FBI agents, hey, don't do this yet, I'm still writing this book, I'm going to send you guys this book, you're going to see it's going to be the interpretation of the book of Revelation, right?

Essentially, what happens is near the end, I'm giving you guys an overview because we can get so much deeper into some of the intricacies.

Tanner. It's hard, just so you know too, is that the biggest challenge, like how do we, if we covered in Waco in depth, it would have to be like, how will we fit in the 10 episodes? Like that's the challenge with this because there's, but again, the most important thing is to understand the theology because that's what they didn't understand.

That's why this standoff took 51 days. I think that's one of the things too, is that the FBI, during the standoff, anything you know about it, they were dealing with it strictly from a tactical standpoint, where they were seeing this as fulfilled, where from the Branch Davidian side, they were seeing this as fulfilled prophecy.

So a failure to understand that theology, I mean, we always talk about scaling the language barrier, understanding this origination of their theology is key because that's when, and that way, when if you ever heard the FBI, the negotiation tapes, you hear two people talking past each other.

So yeah, anyways, back to you, Andrew.

Andrew. Yeah, okay, let me Chris. Real quick, real quick, Andrew, question, just to kind of get me caught up here. So with say the Hudith, Victor Hudith, and then the Rodan's, correct? Were they considered like Messiah figures?

Were they considered just prophets? Like what exactly, how did they, how are they viewed? I'm trying to understand.

Andrew. Yeah, I would state that their followers believed that these individuals had the knowledge of, you know, specific end times teachings with regard to the Bible. So they were devoted to these individuals and they wanted to follow these individuals.

So when certain things happen within a cult framework, like the individual is saying that these things are going to occur and the end's going to take place and then they suddenly die, it's a big shock to them, right?

Because they believed these people to be almost infallible interpreters. So I'd say the standard by which these individuals are following them is because the individuals are charismatic in terms of the way they speak.

They have riz, right? I'm pretty low on the riz, but these guys got the riz and their teachings were gas for anyone out there who may be Gen Z, but for the individuals, but let me try to break it down like this.

I'm sorry. I was going off on a little rabbit trail. Let's break it down on the nature of God, which was taught by Vernon Howell and let's break it down on Christology. Okay. And these teachings you can find from the book that Clive Doyle wrote.

Let me see if I can grab that.

Book real quick. Let me see. Yeah, while he, while he's grabbing that one of the areas too, is that within the history of cults, there's always centralization around a charismatic figure, but whenever that person dies, there's always this fragmentation that happens.

Uh, and so Andrew, I would just tell them about, you know, fragmentation when it came to leaders. So when, uh, when Lois Roden took over, you know, you're looking at the, uh, Benjamin Roden and he passed and everyone kind of looked at him like he was the one who knew everything.

So when he passed away, there's probably this doubt and uncertainty. And so it, when all of a sudden, you know, Lois Roden takes over, that's where, oh, we need, there's this, there's a fragmentation, but there's, cause everyone's sort of shocked and shattered that the person I'm looking to die.

Cause they almost seem like they're like an immortal God, but then they're also desperate to have that vacuum filled. And that's usually where the new person will kind of fill in that power vacuum, but also bring a new revelation.

Uh, go ahead with, uh, would you show her when.

The book so you can see. All right. So this book right here is called a journey to Waco. And let me give you just a brief summary of who Clive Doyle is and why he has authority on teaching us what Vernon Howell, who is David Koresh taught.

Okay. Clive Doyle is a native Australian who worked as a currency printer, became a branch Davidian in 1964. Two years later, he, uh, and others in his group were asked to come to Mount Carmel from Australia, uh, 1984, Doyle and other branch Davidians left Mount Carmel during the power struggle between David Koresh and George Roden.

So George Roden is the son of Ben and Lois Roden. Very important. Okay. Doyle returned in 1988 after escaping, uh, after escaping April 19th, 1993 fire Doyle was one of the 11 branch Davidians tried for murder and conspiracy.

He and two other defendants were acquitted on all counts. Okay. Doyle returned to Waco where he awaits the resurrection of David Koresh, as well as the return of his daughter, Sherry, who was 18 when she died in the fire.

Sherry was one of the several women who called themselves wives of Koresh. Clive Doyle is involved in the Mount Carmel, uh, survivors memorial fund, which offers books, videos, and things of that nature.

But Clive Doyle himself, he passed away on June 8th of 2022. So Clive Doyle is an authority. And when it comes to the terms of the teachings, theologically what they believe, because he was actually one of the editors for Lois Roden's, uh, publications, which was called Shekinah, right?

Like the Shekinah glory of the Holy spirit, some of the feminine, feminine teachings. So in this book, he goes over, uh, the nature of God and what they believed and also Christology. So let me still try to, let me explain this to you guys as simply as possible.

Okay. One God unified, but in two parts, male and female. So it's not modalism, but there's something unique within David Koresh's view where God, when he wanted to live and experience his creation would extend himself to humanity in which he did in various forms.

One form would be Melchizedek, right? Or the youngest of Job's friends was also an extension of God, the father specifically, where then he would return back to heaven and be the father again in Jesus Christ himself, according to their Christology is the same, but he's a little bit different because he's the full embodiment of the dual natures of God.

He is projected from both the father and the mother in him, the fullness of the deity dwelt bodily a butchering of Colossians chapter two, right? Jesus Christ in a sense would be eternal as the dual nature of God, but not as a separate personage, which is a Trinitarian belief, right?

There was one point in time where the human nature of Jesus Christ took on the dual nature of both the father and the mother. So Jesus Christ, according to David Koresh was not eternally existent as a separate person from the father and the Holy spirit.

Jesus Christ was merely a suit of God as an extension for God to come into humanity for a reason and purpose in that age. And that's very important when it comes to interpreting the book of revelation.

And that's why the lamb is separated from the father in terms of Jesus, not being the lamb in the book of revelation, but it actually being David Koresh, because when Jesus goes back to heaven, what does he do?

He goes back into the father, right? Into that extension. Okay. So in, in terms of the way they think, why let's say Clive Doyle stayed, uh, at Waco or why you say it was David Thibodeau,.

Jerry, uh, David Thibodeau is one of the other survivors. Yeah. Why they stayed, right? Yeah. So the reason I would just listen to interview on the way here, uh, and he was saying that the reason why, why they're at, he was asked, he was going to be asked in this interview that David Thibodeau was on saying, well, why didn't you leave?

And he said, well, I, I was seeing the scripture fulfilled right in front of my eyes. Um, and so this was, I was really seeing this as being a test of my faith. Like everything is like everything in my life had built up to this moment.

I mean, that was his mindset that he wanted to be there till the end. So, so David Koresh taught.

That within, uh, the end of the world within the coming judgment of man, uh, only the ripest of the ripe fruit would be the ones who would be resurrected first and they would judge others. So from Cain to Abel or from, uh, Abel to Christ, there was the ripest of the ripest of the saints.

And they were the ones who are resurrected in Matthew 27. When Jesus resurrected, it states that the saints came out of the ground and they walked around the earth, uh, not the earth, but around Jerusalem, David Koresh taught that that was the ripest of the ripe martyrs specifically from Abel to Christ.

Okay. And that they're waiting another one to occur from everyone after Christ until now. So they would essentially be in a form of soul sleep. They wouldn't be in heaven. You can see where they get, uh, where even Jehovah's witnesses get some of their soul sleep ideas from coming back from the days of super early post, uh, William Miller, the great disappointment of failed prophecy that occurred with trying to calculate, uh, when Jesus Christ would occur in the late 18 hundreds.

Uh, you can see where some weird theology started developing and it made its way, uh, from the Miller rights into the Jehovah's witnesses, but it also made its way into the branch Davidians. Right. So essentially why would he want to stay?

Well, he wants to be the ripest of the ripe. You know, he wants to be part of the wave sheaf. That's going to be resurrected first. You know, uh, the seven seals, I haven't gone through all of it yet.

Uh, it's, there's a lot to go through, but the first seal would be the marriage of the lamb. Uh, the woman in revelation 12, one is supposed to represent the Holy spirit. Uh, it's, it's interesting guys.

Uh, there's a lot there. I think maybe we could focus on an episode, uh, another episode going specifically through the seven seals. Cause there's a lot there, but, but, but understand that David didn't teach.

He was Jesus. Okay. He taught he was the lamb. Remember Jesus was an extension of the father. Uh, remember God, according to them, uh, is dual nature, father, mother, uh, but unified in purpose. Uh, and David Koresh would be the lamb that ushers in the end of the world, uh, in terms of the book of revelation.