"Seventy Times Seven" (A Response To Faith Church of Greenfield, MA) Apologetics

The Gospel of Christ and the Purpose of the Discussion Group

Okay turn to 1st Corinthians chapter 15. I'll start by saying welcome to the Faith Matters discussion group. So this is something new. I don't think we've done anything like this before. We'll see how it goes.

Yeah turn to 1st Corinthians 15. I'll just kind of give an introduction and we'll get into the article in a few minutes. I'd like to start by saying a few things before we begin this new endeavor. I'm calling this the Faith Matters discussion group which implies that a lot of it's going to depend on you.

It's not I don't want it to be me up here talking for half hour 45 minutes. I want everybody to get involved and just going forward hopefully you've all read the article but going forward that's very very important that we read the article ahead of time and maybe even make some notes ahead of time of what we or what you are going to say.

So this may go on for two or three weeks depending on how it goes. In order for this to be successful yeah it's going to require your participation. Whether or not I upload this to the internet it is being recorded but I'm going to make that judgment call later on.

In case I do I'm going to need everybody when you chime in I'm going to need you to speak loud so that the microphone catches it. But every Saturday in the religion section the Greenfield Recorder they run a column called Faith Matters and the majority of the clergy members who write in most of them the majority of them identify as Christian but for those of you who read the column you have noticed I think that they believe sometimes very very different than we do and more importantly they believe very different from what Christians have believed historically.

At times their teachings flat-out deny or contradict the Bible. I've shared this story a couple times over the years but there was a minister a few years ago and I'm not critiquing her I'm just telling you what she said.

She was a minister in the United Church of Christ UCC that's one of the largest Protestant denominations in the country and on Easter Sunday she wrote an article about this idea that Jesus died and rose from the dead.

She said what what is he a zombie she said? She said the idea that Jesus died and rose again and is coming back as the judge of mankind she called that the zombie gospel the zombie gospel. Well the fact is no matter what a person's opinion is historically all Christians historically have believed that Jesus died for our sins and rose again.

We're gonna read that in 1st Corinthians 15 in just a moment. So when you read something like that it makes you realize something has happened something has happened along along the way. Admittedly that was one of the more extreme examples okay but it is pretty common to see something that does go against the teachings of Scripture.

So the purpose of this is to not only identify the errors but to figure out why people believe like this so that you can better defend what you believe from the Bible that's that's really the purpose.

I think we would want to be corrected if you were wrong about something wouldn't you want to be. I mean it's not fun being corrected but you we would want to be corrected to believe what is right so I hope that we're all teachable and we're open to challenge and correction because these days everybody is just so tribalistic everybody kind of falls into their camp and they only want to hear the things that reaffirm what they already believe.

Nobody's gonna grow in that kind of setting. So let's look at 1st Corinthians 15 just as our starting point. 1st Corinthians 15 1 through 4 it tells us what the gospel is says or the scripture says. Moreover brethren I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you which also you received in which you stand by which also you are saved if you hold fast that word which I preached to you unless you believed in vain for I delivered to you first of all that which I also received that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and that he was buried and he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.

So that's what the gospel is not according to me that's what the gospel is according to the Bible. So that's our starting point and ultimately my purpose here is to win people over. I hope somebody from another camp another church someone who just doesn't believe might catch wind of this and it'll lead them to faith in Christ.

So this whole thing is not meant as an attack an attack. Hopefully it'll be informative a discussion that will be a learning experience. My one ground rule we're going to try to address the teaching and not the teacher.

Okay so if you're going to critique something critique the idea not the individual. The people writing these articles are made in the image of God just like everybody else. So we want to be respectful of them as people.

But their teachings are fair game. Why are their teachings fair game. Because they're putting it out in the public arena. So therefore it's completely acceptable for us to talk about it publicly. And I'm going to write an article at the end of the month I'm sure there'll be somebody who reads it and critiques what I say and that's fine.

I'm willing to stand behind whatever I say or write and I think they would I think they would say the same thing all right. So now to the article I just want to kind of summarize it again. Everybody should have read it ahead of time.

If there's one or two that haven't that's that's okay just going forward. Let's read it ahead of time. It's titled 70 times 7 and it was written by Pastor Sherwood of Faith Church in Greenfield. What I took away from this to sort of as a summary of the article is that he is going to lead the church Faith Church in serving the needs of the community.

And he says that God this is tied in with the title. He said that God likes to count. So 70 times 7 God likes to count. Jesus tells Peter to forgive 70 times 7. So Peter count keep a record of how many times you forgive.

So therefore just as God likes to count he ends the article by saying to the community now you keep a record of what our church does count how many acts of service count how many wonderful things we do for the community.

That seems to be the thrust of his message and it seems that one of his focuses is that they are going to lead in this idea that fundamentalism is bad. American Christianity historically is bad acceptance of LGBTQ and all of that.

That's good. So Christianity before bad. What we're doing is good. So keep account. Because we're gonna lead in this community in that area. That's kind of my general summary. Do you think that's fair.

Critical Race Theory and the Critique of Fundamentalism

Okay now your reactions. Yes Marcus. Well it sounded like critical.

Race theory only critical fundamentalist theory you could coin a new term.

Critical fundamentalist series. Yeah. Well let's first define what is critical race theory. Okay. Does anyone know. Yeah basically it's a tenant of market. Marxism. It came out of Marxism. There's critical theory in general but critical race theory generally.

The idea is that America is a racist country. It's systemic. There's racism everywhere. You may say. Well I don't even see it. Well yeah right. Because it's everywhere. It's so pervasive you can't even see it.

And you're white. So you're racist just because you have white skin because you're part of the system. So that's kind of critical race theory in a nutshell. It was developed to kind of break down so they could build back up with their Marxism.

I mean that's where it comes from. But you want to. Is there anything specific in the article that stood out to you as critical race theory. This.

Thought didn't cross your mind. It sounds like a critic. A criticism of fundamentalism. Yeah. I mean titles. Titles depend on definition. Don't they just ask what. What is the definition of critical race theory.

Yeah. Well actually.

It didn't cross my mind but now that you mention it critical race theory is meant to kind of break down structures and systems and part of what makes America is this is a Christian nation historically or a nation of Christians and that's bad.

So historic Christianity is bad. You got to break that down so I can see that connection. Did you have your hand up Colby.

CRT kind of makes racism. It makes it related to power also. It's not doesn't always have to do with your skin color. It's like if you're right power over somebody then the people who you have power over can't be racist because they.

Don't have. Yeah. The idea is that white people have had power therefore white people are the problem. But you're right power power structures are involved Jim.

You add something. Well the first paragraph I saw that the statement that he made is contrary to really what's happening. It says that the sacrificing of people who have not yet met me but as our congregation has peeled away from the way this is the part way of fundamentalism with American churches that's just the opposite.

Yeah the majority of churches in America are not.

Fundamentalist churches. Right. You're right. So it is the opposite. Yeah I guess what he's saying is we are breaking away and now you know there's a new time it's a new day. Because churches like ours we're no longer part of that bad fundamentalism.

All right. Any other reactions. And it's good if we can hone in on a statement from from the article and then kind of address that biblically. Yes. Cream. Yeah that's the elephant in the room. That's the major issue with this article is that hey homosexuality.

And I don't even like using the term LG because you're accepting their language. It's like saying pro-choice. Well everyone likes choices. So once you accept their language it's like you lose. It's the Bible calls it sodomy and there's nobody's ever transitioned their gender.

So it's sodomy in cross-dressing. This is how I would define it. But obviously we all know what the Bible teaches about that. And in the name of Christ he's saying oh this is something that should be celebrated.

So that's the glaring issue of the article and then tied to that is well then they don't really believe the Bible. Then if the Bible teaches that and maybe that's the bigger issue. Yeah that it's a it's a denial of the the scripture is the Word of God.

Jesus said the second commandment of the law is to love your neighbor as yourself. That's the second. That's a summary of the second half of the Ten Commandments. One of the commandments is you shall not bear false witness.

When you lie to somebody and saying to a boy with a skirt it says you're at yes you are a girl. You are. If you're lying to them. And according to the scripture according to Jesus lying to somebody is not a loving thing to do.

So they've turned everything on its head. The Bible talks about that. They exchange bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. They call evil good and good evil. I would argue that churches aren't involved in that any church that teaches that is not a new test.

They're an assembly of people. But they're not a New Testament Church. Yeah. If I teach something completely opposite of the Bible you can't call that. I can call it Christianity. But it isn't it isn't Christianity.

Scripture, Truth, and the Authority of the Bible

Larry just.

Thinking about second Timothy 316 that says all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine for reproof for correction for instruction and righteousness. But I've also heard heard some people using that first say all the scripture that is inspired is profitable so there's some.

That isn't okay but who decides. Well there are writings that are not inspired that that's true. But are they in you know are they in that ends book.

And so how do people interpret what the Bible says. Is a literal interpretation or they making it up right as they go. And then. Yeah what. Yeah well I can say.

This with absolute certainty. The things being taught today like this again even 50 years ago this is not being taught at all. So for 1 ,900 plus years this stuff didn't even exist within the church so you can't claim that.

Oh yeah this is what Jesus thought yes.

I also think in regards to the church's condoning the transgender issue is you know we're taught that we're creating God's image exactly the way we are, we're made perfectly so I feel like it's a bit hypocritical to say that and also be like oh but you actually weren't created the right way.

Never mind, God got it wrong.

It just doesn't make sense. Yeah you're right. It's it's the exact opposite almost everything everything they say it's always the reverse. It's like you're misgendering somebody. No we're using the right so you're the misgendering.

So yeah. And it can be frustrating but we have to be able to take a deep breath and be able to explain it to people because there's some people that you know you. I think you have a good understanding of what the scripture says but not everybody does and they'll fall for these arguments.

Lenny yeah the bible is a verse that says something about no confusion but it doesn't say in the church. It says in the saints in other words real believers not just a body of church members. Yeah and no confusion.

So when we start twisting something I don't mean every church is going to tell you the truth but that's among the saints.

True believers. Alright so I'm going to kind of work through this. If you have anything else just raise your hand. But the first paragraph he talks about exploring a broader horizon of christianity. So we have christianity of what it used to be but we want to explore a broader horizon.

What does that mean? Explore a broader horizon. He doesn't really explain it.

Taking it outside of what scripture says right and putting your own interpretation on what scripture says right that would be the broader.

Yes my first reading through this I was noticing these opposites and like we're talking about the opposites of good and evil and evil and then god. And this was the first thing that I noticed this use of the word broader.

As if broader is better. And I just couldn't help. But thinking of the bible verse it says broad is the road that leads to destruction. And many there be that find it later at the. I don't know if you want to wait until we get to that part of it.

But he was in the criticism of the Methodist church. The Methodist church was wrong because it was largely over. Well because of its inability to universally welcome those of other sexual identities or orientations.

And again welcoming a person. I would welcome anyone. I have a transgender student this year. I had one last year. I had one before that lived across the street where I lived. So it's not new to me. I still welcome those kids.

I still love those kids. I disagree with what they're doing. I don't particularly want to be suspended or fired. And I know full. Well because I have been warned about you know exercising any level of teaching or authority because I do have authority over them.

As far as you know if we have an emergency they need to do exactly as I say. Or they might not get out of the bus alive in an accident. But I can't correct there. So alright so broad and narrow. I forget where.

Well anyways he says you don't want to be narrow. You do want to be broad. Well no you don't. You want to be narrow. You want they call it the straight and narrow. Right. No. We want broader market. We want to go in a broader direction.

So this is the statement I got stuck on you know but kept going back and forth on it but I also thought of I mean I don't think it's bad I mean a broader horizon I looked it up is an increased range of knowledge so you're increasing your name of our beliefs.

So I was also thinking of Peter when he was on the roof when the things came down. Isn't that devil of God asking him to broaden his horizons.

Right. Yeah I like that because you looked up the term and I looked up the term as well. And the definition as far as a broader horizon is actually good. That yes we do want to expand our knowledge and again if we are wrong we want to know that.

But he didn't really define the broader horizon. I guess you were saying that he left the United Methodist Church because they were not inclusive enough. Anyone who knows the United Methodist Church in the United States knows that they are the most supportive of homosexuality.

Every Methodist Church I drive by has the rainbow flag out front. Now there are some parts of the Methodist Church in Africa that are not fully accepting. But again it's just the opposite that they are not inclusive.

Yeah they are extremely inclusive of that broader horizon. That's what I thought of Matthew 7 13 and 14. Enter by the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction. That was my first thought.

But the truth is narrow. 2 plus 2 equals what 4. The truth is very narrow. Error is wide. 2 plus 2 equals 10. 2 plus 2 equals 110. Like there's all these other horizons that are wrong. But the truth is very narrow.

Yeah Jim.

Well if you if you he says a broader horizon of Christian faith if you earnestly study the word of God and pray that God would reveal with clarity insight and wisdom into his word then that would be the broader part of it not the world as being broader which I think he's intending on saying here.

But the broader part would be your knowledge of what scripture says what God is like what we need to be like. You know it's not a book of rules which I think sometimes people yeah that's what it is. You know if you want to be a Christian you got to follow these rules.

But I think that the broader the broader horizons would come only through the study of scripture. And I can you know how does he come up with these these topics that he's enumerated in this article without studying the word of God.

If he's studying the word of God is he just picking out. Well this is what I think is the focus of and everything else is a shadow of what the.

Real truth is right. Well I don't think he's getting his teachings from the Bible. That's evident. So where does it come from. Can I play devil's advocate. Can I try to come from maybe his perspective.

And what they might say. I think that they would hear all of this and even though that yes the Bible does call it an abomination they would hear all that as us being hateful. Not. So yeah. Well that I think that's how they that's how they interpret it so that they're led more by feeling.

So if somebody comes to you and they're involved in this lifestyle that we are going to embrace that person we're going to show them love and you can see how that would seem to the broader world as they're the ones who are loving these people and you're just the one condemning them.

I think that's where they're coming from. You use the word preach at someone.

Right but at the same time I don't know if they understand this or not. We all have people in our family friends neighbors co-workers who are involved in this. I don't think anybody here is mistreating them or trying to make them feel bad.

Or if somebody came into the church and wanted to sit through a service I think people would be nice to them. So I don't think the label of well you just hate people I don't think that's accurate at all.

But if you love somebody I think you need to tell them the truth about what God has said. Because ultimately we are blessed by God when we obey God's will for our life. And one thing they can't deny is that if that boy or girl was biologically born as a male or female I mean that's science that is fact that is science.

But they're going to change. But they're embracing a whole ideology that is detached from scripture.

Did you have something? 2 Peter 3 .18 talking about says. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ amen. That's our broadening. Should be his teachings his life his ministry everything that he taught.

We should live right. Yes it seems like they're twisting words around because they want us to accept that and we should be accepting that. We should forgive them 70 times that so.

Forgiveness, Counting, and Good Works

Yeah if I can kind of hone in on that because this is the only part that actually quotes scripture. His only quotation of scripture is Matthew 18 21 and 22. Um so he he's saying that you know God is a God who likes to count.

God counts days. God counts the tribes of Israel and the Lord told Peter to forgive 70 times 7. So Peter keep a record of how many times you forget. That's the exact opposite of what Jesus was saying.

He's saying don't keep a record don't count. Because if Peter was counting he could get to 490 and say I don't have to forgive anyone anymore. So it's ironic to me the only time he actually uses scripture his conclusion is the exact opposite of Jesus's intention.

And it also seemed that he was saying all right now count count faith church now and see how many times I see. They have a kitchen you know not a soup kitchen but a pantry. Count how many good things they do.

And yes given a number of years you know if you do one good thing each day well 365 days you'll be up there. And you know in less than 2 years you'll be up to 490. Well then what the truth is. Scripture says all your righteousnesses are as filthy rags when it comes to the issue of salvation.

So again they're saying good works are good. You should do 490 good works. Well good works are.

Good false teaching is bad. Good works are good. Keeping a record. If I do good things and I say okay everybody keep track of all the good things. It sounds like to me it sounds like a boast like watch me watch us as we do all these amazing things the Bible does talk about when you do a good work you don't go and blow a trumpet and have everybody watch.

You're going to lose your reward. So everything is the exact.

Again and again the exact opposite. Okay yes. Linda I'm not sure you can separate the teacher from the message even though that's the rule. Yeah I mean there is so much scripture about you know whatever causes a little one to sin that's pretty severe you know beware of false prophets.

And it's really disturbing to me that even though we're talking about the article if you look about faith church it says in there there's a youth group and they have growth groups that sounds really ominous and distressing so they're teaching young people this.

We love Linda don't we. She's absolutely right. You can't separate the teaching from the teacher. I guess what I'm saying is I don't want them to be ad hominem attacks. You know if I put out the article and somebody says well you can't listen to that guy from Morris Corner.

He doesn't even have his you know master's degree. You can't listen to him. He's uneducated. He's an idiot. He's funny looking. Don't listen to this guy. Like. I guess that's what I'm saying as far as let's not attack the individual but I mean he's a false teacher.

There's no question about that and I say that based on his teaching. Might be a nice guy. I don't know but you know that's kind of the sin I think of American evangelical Christianity. We are so concerned about being nice.

And we want to be so nice and polite. We don't want to ruffle any feathers. We don't want to offend anybody. And then in the process the truth is slain in the streets. I think that's partly what has got us in this mess.

To begin with then when someone comes out with the truth they seem like the outlier. Like what's their problem. Because nobody else is really doing it. Okay.

Anything else before we move on. The most disturbing line to me near the end was may we prove the identity of Christ with our behavior to the community. So that was to me disturbing because they're saying this is who Christ is.

So it's not only themselves that they're saying this is who Christ is. Too right.

Of course and again the only thing they quoted about what Christ said was from Matthew about forgiving. So it comes down to the standard of how do you know about Jesus. Well you can either listen to what this guy says about Jesus or you can read what Jesus said in the scripture.

So it's your source of authority. Where are you getting your information from.

Yes Marcus it seems as if he was even criticizing the previous pastor there when the previous pastor there I thought was going right along right along with these guidelines as far as sexual sin goes.

As far as what part sounded critical of.

Well where he was he was sounding like he was broadening the horizons from the previous.

Yeah the last paragraph says that basically.

May we expand. And also just when you mentioned the Methodist church one of my early co-drivers in fact we always met down at the co-op early in the morning. He was a Sunday school teacher in the Methodist church and of course because of that I felt free to discuss religion and was trying to share the gospel with him.

Which I was able to do. And his final analysis of my brand of Christianity was that it was too exclusive and not inclusive enough. And later he shared with me that he one of his Sunday school young teenagers came to him and asked if you committed suicide would you still go to heaven.

And he said yes. And that young person committed suicide. Well I feel sorry for them both. Just the same way I feel sorry. I feel sorry for everyone who cannot understand the simple gospel. When a child I don't know what the age of accountability.

With me it was nine and with somebody else it might have been four or five. But a child can understand they've done something wrong. They know it they can feel it. Whether it was just stealing a cookie that was what I felt guilty about and then ice cream at the other neighbors.

And then breaking the other ones window some of these things there's not a definite answer. Like age of accountability there's no definite answer. We don't want to be too dogmatic on things where there's not a clear answer.

But yes dad okay I just want to go back to the article for a minute it said. So when I made decisions to leave the United Methodist Church largely over its inability to universally welcome those of other sexual identities and orientations the list of reasons came easily.

I did not need such a narrow ministry to be part of who I was. However when I considered the kind of pastor I did want to be the kind of church I did want to serve I found myself needing God to make a list for me.

Now you notice what's missing throughout the whole article. The only scripture mentioned was the 70 times 7. That's got nothing to do with sexual orientation. And like me if it does no I don't think so.

So I think the problem is here. He's talking about lists. He wants to make a list. Then he said I need God to make a list for me. Well he's already made a list on the subject. It's called the Holy Bible so I'm not.

He talks about it and then he leaves you like he makes up his own list.

I'm glad you picked up on that. I need divine proof. I needed God to make me a list. And then he goes on to talk about his own list. Yeah.

Joyce in prayer as I mentioned at all. Yeah. And what exactly is his viewpoint of God the God of the Bible. It's interesting because it's kind of hard to tell what he really thinks about God.

Right I think that's a good question because his view of God our view of God is very different. If you don't base it on the scripture then it's kind of up for grabs. I think. Brenna it almost sounds like he's.

Demanding from God to give him things. You know God when it's in his plan you don't just go and demand things from him.

Which is probably wrong. Yeah and I will say that evangelicals do that kind of thing. I don't think he's alone in that. And asking okay God you need to come through or God I need you to do this so not that that's right or I'm defending it but I think a lot of people probably do that.

The Authority of Scripture Over Human Philosophy and Progressive Christianity

Okay Jim.

Colossians chapter 2 says. For I want you to know what a great comfort that I have for you and those in the plea of the seer for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh that their hearts may be encouraged being knit together in love and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding and to the knowledge the mystery of God both of the Father and of Christ in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Verse 8. Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and amiticency according to the tradition of men according to the basic principles of the world and not according to Christ for in him was all the fullness of the Godhead bodily and you are complete in him who is the head of all principality and power.

He doesn't even come close to emphasizing that even if he didn't quote the verses to me it was all about how he can run things and not have God teach him how to run things.

Then again that's plainly evident that we're going off of Bible verses and he's going off of something else. I mean that's obvious. So this you've mentioned the traditions of men I think that's what this is.

It's not the traditions you would think of in the past of the traditions of the Catholic Church but they're new traditions. They're traditions of this new progressive Christianity.

It's not the Bible. Again it's on the opposites. Isaiah 5 20 says woe unto them that call evil good and good evil. Now this is the issue. The Bible does say that homosexuality is sin but the Bible also says God loves sinners.

So I would agree that God does love homosexuals. He hates homosexuality or he hates homosexual acts homosexual behavior. We are all sinners. There is none righteous. No not one. But for us to say that anything that the Bible says is sin is not sin.

There in lies the real problem.

Again I think from their perspective they would hear you guys are just singling out homosexuals. And why are you singling them out. What about. But we would recognize that we have all sinned and have come short of the glory of God.

I think the obsession of talking about this issue is from that group. Honestly if I never talked about this topic for the rest of my life I'd be okay with that. They have raised it to that level not us.

So we're just saying well this is what the Bible says. But the Bible condemns a lot of other behaviors things that you do. And I have done right. So we all need forgiveness. So if any of them ever do watch this or catch wind of it.

Hey I need salvation just as much as they do. We all do. That's the point. But this is just an obvious example of something that contradicts the teaching of Scripture. So alright anybody else who hasn't had a chance to speak yet.

The Church's Identity, Love, and the Truth of the Gospel

Alright last thing. So perhaps the most revealing statement is in the last column about halfway down at least in my opinion he writes. So I asked my congregation to begin to forgive and heal the wounds of an American Christianity that we have intentionally decided that we are not.

Right. I think he's admitted we're not. We're not Christians. I think that's. That's what he's saying. It's not American Christianity because this was in Europe and it was in the Middle East long before it came to America.

And I would argue the Christianity in Europe 500 years ago and the Christianity in the Middle East 1800 years ago is a lot more conservative than American Christianity. So when he says we are not that.

Yeah I think we can agree on that. You're not any final comments. So pray for the people of that church because they are being deceived as are millions and millions of people all throughout the United States.

And it's all being done in the name of love. So you need a biblical definition of love. Love rejoices in what Paul says in 1st Corinthians 13. Love does not rejoice in iniquity. It rejoices in the truth.