The Institutional Church is Failing Young Men

Welcome to Conversations That Matter Podcast. I'm your host John Harris for what I believe will be an informative, important and beneficial podcast.

A necessary one really for the times that we are living in. I have some thoughts that I've been marinating in over the last few days.

And I wanna share some of them with you. Some of these thoughts I've shared before, but if you're a newer listener, you haven't heard me say this yet.

And I think I need for you to hear me say it. I'm greatly concerned right now for something that has been present in my mind, but something that has become painfully obvious this last week that spells death for evangelical

Christianity in the United States should it continue on this road.

I need to say that I'm thankful for very solid pastors, for very solid men. I've talked to some of them even this week who

I am not referring to when I talk about what I'm about to talk about. But there is a big, big problem.

And it's not just on the woke side, guys. There's a problem on our side as well.

It's more prevalent on the woke side. I'll give you that, but it is on our side. And I'm very disturbed.

I'm not gonna even show you the screenshots. I know sometimes I do this, but I'm very upset by some of the things that I've seen happen over the last few days in the social discourse online.

And I will say this. If we do not, as Christians, figure out a way to give hope to young men, to encourage them, to somehow come beside them and show them what it means to be a man and help them meet the challenges before them, because they are great challenges.

Do not make a mistake in thinking that it's easy to be a man right now. They are great challenges.

We will not have a church, an influential church as an institution in the

United States. It's the death knell. You need the men. You need men. And I am seeing the exact wrong lessons pulled from some of the situations that are happening right now and the exact wrong takes.

And I'm not saying this as someone who just, my judgment can be off.

Clearly, clearly, I can, as we even saw last week, I can call things,

I can have the wrong take on something. I'm going off of very, very basic though.

This isn't just surface level stuff. These are fundamental things that I'm working off of.

Biblical things. We're gonna talk about some biblical things as we go through this too. But let me start here.

Those who were listening last year know I shared a story of going hiking, actually camping.

I'll try to make this brief, but there was a individual who pulled into this remote parking lot at 11 o 'clock, went for a hike.

I asked the group I was with, you think we should talk to him? We decided not to. And why would you?

He wasn't bothering anyone who wants to go ask someone at late at night in the middle of the woods what they're doing there.

It could be suspicious, but this person was hiking. It ended up being a young man who committed suicide.

And it's a day that I will remember probably till I die for a variety of reasons.

I found out through volunteer fireman social media accounts, because he was a volunteer fireman, that his father, the first one

I actually met on the scene, came in a fire truck. I figured out his father was the first one on the scene.

He was a chief. I figured out that he was on the right.

He was a young white man. And I don't know what was going through his head, but I know that after that, so we're talking about a year ago, a number of other situations

I was not as close to came up where young white men committed suicide. And I don't think the issue

I'm talking about is unique to white men. This is, I think, all men. But I think white men are specifically targeted.

I'm not just saying this. The suicide statistics tell me that something's going on.

Men die by suicide 3 .6 times more often than women. And the suicide rate is more than twice as high among whites compared to African -Americans or Asians or Pacific Islanders, which means that 70%, 70 % of all suicide deaths are white men.

90 % of those who died by suicide had a diagnosable mental health condition at the time of their death.

Now, there's different stats that say different things, but they all say that there is something going on with men and white men in particular.

We don't hear about this disparity from the left. They talk about all kinds of other ethnic racial disparities.

This is not one of them. And I bring it up to ask you a question for you to ponder yourself.

And I think this is where I want to be practical and try to figure out solutions to this.

But think about your church and think about the men who attend and whether it's a place that welcomes men.

I know we've talked about this before. There's all these attempts to make gay people feel comfortable at church. And all the demographics,

I would say, that are protected classes in this society. But what about men? What kinds of things exist in your church?

Are there men encouraging men, older men with younger men, like scripture teaches older men to disciple essentially younger men and younger men to learn from them and show them respect.

Does those relationships form in your church? Do men receive encouragement? These are things that I think all of us need to think about.

A lot of broken homes, a lot of people moving across the country, a lot of confusion now even over things like gender. There's instability that we, that our forefathers just would never have even imagined.

And this is the time for Christians to really step up. My fear is that it is not happening.

And in fact, the opposite is happening. People are being pushed away. And there's a number of things that are showing this to me or making me think this, but there's a few things even this week that just stopped me in my tracks.

One of them is the video I put out yesterday. Many of you liked it, but many of you who commented said, hey, this reminds me of my son.

This reminds me of my friend. They got to this point of getting so red -pilled and realizing that the deck was stacked against them and becoming either depressed, getting a bunker mentality, isolating themselves, becoming insular or becoming more radicalized where they're more revolutionary and they do violent things or they want to do violent things and they have just a chip on their shoulder throughout life.

And they've adopted simplistic explanations for everything. Instead of the way the world works, which yeah, there are some simplistic explanations in the sense that there's

God, there's sin, there's the devil, right? We have these spiritual forces working, but here in the temporal world, there's a lot of factors that go into complicated mechanisms like our economy and our political situation and just even regional things that affect areas culturally.

It's a complicated matrix of interwoven forces. But I think we like simple explanations in young men in particular who are idealistic are more willing to adopt some very simplistic explanations and they're starting to do it.

And one option is social justice, but honestly social justice is not very welcoming to young men, especially young white men.

Yeah, there's some Antifa guys that are pasty white, I get it. But in general, young men realize that either they have to pander, they have to try to deny them, not themselves in the way

Jesus said to deny yourself, but they have to deny their very nature, who they are. People who should be building things and accomplishing much and achieving and conquering.

And they have to deny that and join the rest of the world in besmirching it they have to join the rest of the world in becoming feminized.

Or their other option is to find a group of fellowship and that's necessary, men need that, they want that.

So we did the men's retreat and they're going to go where they're accepted, where they're encouraged, where the offer is made.

And I don't see the church as being a great in general, the church being a place for them right now.

And that's a sad thing because what's ending up happening is a lot of young men are going online and they're finding groups that will give them more encouragement than they will get anywhere else.

Sometimes from pseudonymous accounts and people behind these electronic barriers, but at least they're hearing good job, here's how to conquer porn, here's how to get married, here's what you should do on the date, here's how to help your kids, this is what you should say to get the job.

Oh, that's an awesome picture of what you built. Yeah, I would love to go fishing with you.

I mean, they're not getting this. There's a disconnect. I've seen this in churches,

I've seen this in just even the writings on evangelical blogs and it's just assumed there that men are, the sins that are common to men are castigated in this imbalanced way where the sins common to women are imported and sometimes even praised.

And the events for women tend to be these, you're the child of the king conference or something.

And for men, it's maybe the accountability group where you talk about how terrible it is that you struggle with certain things.

I'm just telling you, there is a big, big, massive disconnect, massive. It's been going on for years.

But right now, because of the political situation we're in and the social situation, men are becoming attracted to all kinds of voices that are going to offer them acceptance, fellowship, encouragement.

And they will advocate for the nature of a man.

They will tell them there's nothing wrong with the way you're made, it's good to be a man. And we're here to help you with it.

And not all these voices are good voices, my friends. Some of these are very dark. So some of you wrote these comments and I think going through that anonymous

Twitter account, spending like basically the equivalent of like two days on it, like nonstop, just about two full workdays, like thinking about this account and seeing things that frankly were surprising to some extent, but the more

I've marinated in this, the more things are connecting in my mind. And I got the picture of a young man who was entertaining evolutionary ideas,

Darwinian ideas even, which just blew me away. And pagan ideas, ancient pagan literature and the ideas that come from that and on what being a man is.

And the criticism is for these conventional politicians and pastors though, evangelical leaders, lots of criticism for them.

Tired of being guilted for being a man. And I'm just thinking of ways and I'm open, put it in the comment section.

How can we fix this guys? This isn't just our side. And one of the reasons I know this is because what happened today with Kanye West is serving as another illustration.

I thought it was a joke at first. I laughed, I'll be honest. Someone told me Kanye West was with Alex Jones and doing this like puppet impression of Benjamin Netanyahu with a high pitched voice.

And he had a outfit on that was like a jumpsuit that covered his face, talking about how he loved Hitler.

And I'm like, what? I listened to the podcast and I think

I know what Kanye was trying to say, but the guy was a bit all over the place. And I think he was trying to say he loves everyone and he's tired of the vilification that Nazis get and isn't everyone made in the image of God?

And then he said some very off color things, but get past that for a minute, if you can.

If you've heard about this incident, get past the, I'm not saying ignore the problems, the wrong thinking.

There's lots of wrong thinking. The main thing he said wrong was he basically denies that man is evil, that it's the devil that gets in and corrupts man.

And Jews aren't bad, it's those Zionists because that's the devil getting in them. And so he thinks it's the, he has this explanation for how he sees the world that doesn't match reality.

It's not biblical, but it's got a veneer of Bible. And he's also leading a lot of men who feel,

I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you. Kanye West is as much as there's a humor and there's the, he's crazy.

And there's a lot of men, young men in particular, who feel in a similar way to the way he feels right now.

And they're attracted to that simplistic explanation that he offers. And it doesn't matter if every, it was like within an hour, every media company in existence was denouncing

Kanye West. I expect that. What I wish

I didn't have to expect is that Christians, Christians on our side too, guys, anti -woke

Christians, going out there to use, figure out a way, figure out an angle to play this politically.

How do we attach Kanye West to the people we don't like? How do we get them to take responsibility for him?

It's those white nationalists and it's those, one of the dumbest things that I've been seeing is it's those traditional conservatives and that Kanye's been spending time with.

Like who, Candace Owens? I don't know much about when Nick Fuentes, but I guess he's influenced

Kanye. But it's, this is the problem. Even some people are trying to score points against Christian nationalism because Kanye talks about Jesus and wanting him to rule the

United States and his law to reign. And then he's talking about these off -color things with anti -Semitism sounding comments.

And just, and I get all that and I'm not saying all of that's necessarily wrong, but that is now the first reaction.

And it's usually the only reaction that I see to these kinds of things. It's the same thing we saw last week with Stephen Wolff.

It's the same reaction. And I'm just,

I'm putting pieces together here, everyone, that there's a person, we gotta see that there's a person behind this.

And I mean, personally, I think Kanye West is probably influenced. He's talked about this before.

I've listened to enough interviews that his dad was a Black Panther and he's very influenced by his dad, thinks he's the smartest man he knows, loves his dad.

And they've kind of rekindled this relationship. And it's, the timeframe seems to make sense to me.

Again, I could be totally wrong on this, but Black Panthers weren't exactly known for liking Jewish people.

And so I can see an overlap here. But it's, the tendency is to immediately just denounce, vilify.

And I do think there does need to be a sense of separation here.

We have to have, I think, a sense of separation that people need to know that, okay,

Kanye West is wrong on these things, especially if he's influencing people around you.

But I, but why do we sound exactly like the world? That's the question

I guess I have. Why is the Christian community lined up to try to use every situation like this, where a young man says politically off -color things or is caught in a trespass, instead of being spiritual to restore such a one, as Galatians 6, one talks about.

It's, you know, it's castigation. I think we should pray for Kanye West.

And I don't know where he's at, but look, he professes to believe in Jesus Christ.

He professes salvation. And we, until proven otherwise, and if he keeps going down a heretical path, then maybe he'll prove it.

It sounds like he's dealing with some of that. But we have to make sure that we are, we are being, we are a place where people can come and ask questions.

They've heard the Kanye West interview. Can young men come and ask us questions? Are they gonna feel like we're gonna jump down their throat right away and use them as a public example to humiliate them?

Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. I was gonna read the story,

I don't think we have time, but the story of the woman caught in adultery from the

Gospel of John. Jesus, and I understand this is a manuscript issue and all that, but it's a tradition that, whether it's in the manuscripts, it likely happened,

I believe. And the Pharisees do what they always do to Jesus.

They play the guilt by association card. They try to make a public spectacle of Jesus by pointing out that he's a friend of tax gatherers and sinners.

They try to make out that Jesus is approving somehow of these horrible sins, and they're the pure ones, they're the clean ones, they have the moral high ground.

Jesus does not have the moral high ground, even though he's a perfect man, fully man, fully

God. And now he's a friend of tax gatherers and sinners. And look at this woman, she's caught in the very act of adultery.

They take this sin that probably didn't have a lot of people who knew about it, but they find out and they take her and they make her a public spectacle.

And then they use it, they weaponize it against Jesus. And Jesus, what are you gonna do about this?

And you know how Jesus handled it. He is without sin, cast the first stone, and many preachers have pointed out they didn't follow the due process.

Even if she did it, they didn't actually, where's the husband? Where's the husband? So you're not going to punish him, but you're punishing the wife?

The sin, Jesus said to her, go and sin no more. God resists the proud, gives grace to the humble.

That's a biblical principle we have got to remember here. Jesus was the kind of man that sinners and tax gatherers felt comfortable going to.

Now, in one sense, they didn't, if they were proud.

Remember, God resists the proud, gives grace to the humble. If they were proud, darkness doesn't want light.

They don't want their sins to be exposed. But if they're repentant, if they want answers, they knew that they could come to Jesus and they would find a gentle, well, not to riff off the gentle and lowly title, but it's true.

Isn't it true? Even if there's issues with that book, the Bible verse is true.

Gentle spirit, lowly of heart. I mean, cast your cares upon him for he cares for you.

This is the God that we worship. This is Jesus and a man's man too. Not just gentle Jesus, meek and mild.

He, obviously the bullwhip situation shows that that's not his character or his perpetual state.

He knew each situation and how to respond and react. And he's coming back with a double -edged sword.

So if you want a man, there's a man's man there. Joseph was also a righteous man.

It says that one of the examples of his being righteous was putting his wife,

Mary, away secretly. He didn't want to expose what he thought was her sin, even though apparently she wasn't sinful because her child was conceived by the

Holy Spirit. There's a pattern in scripture. Nathan did not go to all of Israel to talk about how terrible

David was. He went to David to confront him on his adultery and his murder. Even in Matthew 18, we see a principle here of starting off with going to the individual in a situation of a personal offense.

And you escalate it when the individual responds with, guess what, pride. God resists the proud, gives grace to the humble.

We're commanded to encourage the fainthearted, help the weak and be patient with all men.

We're also supposed to admonish the unruly though, but not everything is admonishing the unruly.

And what I'm seeing are men beaten down. Men who have just basic questions, they're not even supposed to say obvious things, notice certain things.

They can't even notice that things like, hey, it seems like certain demographics tend to be criminals more.

Why is that? Is there a reason for this? Something obvious like that, you're not even supposed to say that.

I pointed out in this thing that Kevin DeYoung wrote against Stephen Wolfe's book. Kevin DeYoung is offended, basically.

He thinks it's problematic that Stephen Wolfe talks about a gynocracy, that women tend to be, we're under this feminist kind of status quo in the

United States. And this is a problem, this is offensive to say these things. So we're policing speech.

And if someone steps a little bit out of line, and the standards we're using are awfully worldly guys. Someone steps a little bit out of line, and then we, man, we have it out for them.

I remember years ago, I don't know if I've heard it recently, but when I was at Southeastern in seminary,

I used to hear the story of the woman caught in adultery applied to homosexuality an awful lot. Like, well, we have to hate the sin, love the sinner, and we just have to have so much compassion on homosexuals.

And we gotta stop with the harsh rhetoric. And I find it interesting that for people who contemplate sexist or racist in the eyes of the world thoughts, or genuinely sinful thoughts, not just what the world thinks of being sexism or racism, but what scripture teaches is hatred for another person, is sinful hatred.

If it's within the framework of, or related to the sins the world finds unacceptable, then there's not an approachability in the church, in Christianity, in general.

And again, I'm speaking in very general terms, I'm not saying this characterizes all of the church. I'm just saying what

I've observed, and what I've seen, especially at the upper levels of evangelicalism, there are just very little resources, real resources for men.

It's a joke. It's a joke, the stuff that I see on masculinity out there. And it's no wonder certain voices, certain people within Christianity even are getting, like Stephen Wolf, are getting traction, because they're not denying that nature.

And they're also willing to grapple with hard questions. And this is what

I think we need to seriously consider doing again. I'm sickened. I'm really am by what

I'm seeing online, and seeing how these things are being used, because I know behind even what Kanye West said today, and did, there is a dissatisfaction, and a feeling of betrayal, and a feeling of abandonment.

And it ends up being a confirmation bias, where you think you have the truth, and your paradigm makes sense, and the crazy paradigms that are popular for how the world runs.

And you're vilified for it, and so you become more and more ingrained, and you start to find people who share similar views, or are also,

I mean the thing that binds you to other people is, they've also been canceled, or they've also touched the third rail somehow.

And so the community, these end up being, I think, very unhealthy communities that generally form online, where it's communities of people that need help.

And they're trying to help each other. They're trying to encourage each other, but they need some real tangible leaders in their lives.

It hit me today that I think this is important for me also, because I have experienced some of this in my own life.

I'm privileged. I have privilege, and I'm thankful to God for it. I'm not ashamed of it at all. I have a stable mom and dad.

I have a stable family life. And my dad has always been a hero to me.

He's been there for me. I've been able to talk with him about anything. He always has advice for me.

I value his opinion. I realize that the majority of guys now don't necessarily have that.

And if you're a dad who hasn't been there for your son, then you need to be there. And I'm gonna be delicate about what

I'm gonna say next, but I'm gonna speak in generalities. I have had almost every single, and I'm not trying to be a victim at all, but almost every single leader in my entire life that in the church, in Christian institutions, that has a male figure has let me down in ways that are extreme or that are so,

I suppose, the lack of trust, the lack of just care, accountability, encouragement is irreparable damage.

Those relationships have been damaged irreparably. Or they were just, I realized

I couldn't trust the person on a deep level before the relationship got off the ground. I mean, that's almost all

I've known. I mean, this includes, I'm just telling you, this includes seminary.

This includes a lot of places. And I've wondered before, I'm like, did I just have a string of bad luck? I don't believe in luck, but God, in God's providence, did he not want me to have a lot of mentor figures in my life?

Because I've always wanted that. And I don't think my situation is very unique.

And there's some wonderful men that are mentors out there, but, and I don't wanna get any more detailed in this, really, there's so many things

I could say, but I'm not jaded about it at all. I'm not, and I'm being honest about that.

I'm really, I'm not resentful. I'm not any of that. I just, I view it this way.

I want to be there for men, for young men, especially. It's why I think we're gonna do another fall men's retreat.

And why I wanna do more things for men, because I know they need the encouragement and they need biblical strong leaders, not these weak -wristed, just looking to score political points, save their own necks, practically worthless for anything related to the kingdom of God, evangelical voices, that inhabit so many of our institutions.

And I know that sounds harsh, but it's the reality, guys. Here's my encouragement.

So, because this has been a very discouraging podcast, perhaps, it's just reality, though. You just need to know that this is reality.

I wanna leave you on an up note, and I wanna give you, I'm gonna end with that interview for you.

And I hope that will encourage you, too. But a few things, number one, and this is personal. This is where I've gained a lot of inspiration.

I read a lot of biographies, and I read biographies of men from the past. And so I have heroes from the past that I can look to.

Yeah, I didn't know them, but I kinda did know them because I was able to get to know them through literature.

And I would just encourage you to find some just godly men from the past, missionaries.

I've talked about this before. Eric Little's definitely one of my top, number one or two, as far as non -biblical heroes.

Robert E. Lee has always, I know I'm not supposed to say that, but what a consistent Christian witness and Christian man who's been lied about and slandered a whole lot.

But I find a lot of inspiration in him. I find even inspiration in some men that aren't even necessarily known for being strong Christians, but exhibited some very manly characteristics that I find to be encouraging.

I think of people like George Washington in this vein. I'm drawing a lot from American history,

I suppose. I'm trying to think of examples outside of American history. You can certainly go back to some of the reformers.

You can go back, Martin Luther's someone that I've studied quite a bit, too, and he had his faults, but that's someone who's definitely a man and definitely has some inspiration that we can draw upon.

I think if you even get into literature concerned with war and things like that, there's a lot of generals and just soldiers from the past and explorers and just all kinds of figures out there that thank the

Lord we have sources that we can draw upon to learn from them and glean from them even though they're not alive now.

So that's one thing I would encourage people to go down that path, rediscover some of these lost heroes that are out there, and maybe someday

I'll curate a list for everyone of good biographies to read. I have actually probably a number of them on my shelf right here that I could recommend.

The other thing is really seek this out. If you don't have this, if this isn't available to you,

I would just suggest you try to find a place, and it's worth moving, I think, but try to find a place where this does exist.

Thirdly, in this, for someone who, all the doors have been closed even, but make sure that you, even if you don't have a good mentor relationship or a relationship with another man, make sure that you can be that for someone else.

We have to start somewhere, and no one's perfect. So even if you're just a little farther ahead in your walk or in your responsibilities and having your life together than someone else, that can greatly encourage them.

And I would say this as well, don't find your primary relationships online. Deal in the real world as much as you can.

Online's important. You're listening to me online, but I'm not your best friend. I don't know what's going on in your life, unless you're someone

I know personally. You may feel that way. You may be deceived into thinking that because you hear my voice all the time,

I get exactly where you're at. And because we're all going through similar circumstances, there's some general things that maybe

I see, but I don't see your life in particular. I'm not there for you in the way that someone who's there physically can be there for you and can share experiences with you and share laughs with you.

And so that would be the other thing I would say is you can go online and you can certainly find people who will agree with you to a

T, because you're drawing from such a large pool of people. But in your smaller pool of people around you, you may not find as many people who agree with you in the same way, but the difference is they actually are there.

And so you start somewhere. Do something that it's good to, I think, actually have hobbies.

So do either projects or hobbies or just shared experiences.

Invite people to your house for dinner or whatever and just get to know some people, but start somewhere.

And I know in our generation, I'm just realizing this now, I'm a millennial, but the Zoomers are less inclined in some ways than even my generation to know how to navigate normal relationships.

This is happening all the time with dating. It's a dance that even Christian guys just aren't even sure how to do.

Like, how do I go from point A to point B? She's my friend and now I wanna marry her. And they're so lost so often.

And so I would just encourage, even if you're gonna make mistakes, start somewhere.

And there's good books. There's even, I remember one time, I mean, it's a book by Dale Carnegie. I didn't get through the whole thing, but how to win a friend's influence people years ago.

I probably don't practice those principles like I once tried to, but there's practical books out there that can even help you get off the ground in having relationships with guys.

I think even just that, and I haven't even talked about the spiritual side of your walk with God or anything, but just that, just what

I'm talking to you about, socializing, forming relationships, I think that makes a huge difference.

And if you have spiritual wisdom to impart, don't keep it to yourself, find someone. And so that's my two cents.

And it's just, it's on my heart because of the things over the last few days. And I wonder how many men are just falling through the cracks.

Even men who come in, sit in the pew, and they listen and they leave, and they never really talked to anyone.

They didn't know anyone except on a superficial level. And maybe they're afraid if people knew the real them, the things that they really thought about, the questions they really had, that they wouldn't be very liked.

In fact, maybe they would be used. They would be used just like the Pharisees used the woman caught in adultery.

They would be politicized or viewed as a pariah, like everyone's gonna get leprosy if they touch that person.

I mean, how often have you heard someone confess to the sin of racism? And I'm not talking about the

CRT, like, oh, I have systemic privilege. No, like I actually hated other people, or a misogyny or something.

I hated women. I just, you know, I treated my, I was a wife beater. I was like, how often do you hear people talk about even having temptations in these areas?

They don't bring them up. And one of the reasons is, is because they know what will happen the instant they do.

They'll be ostracized, and they may even lose their job as we've just seen. It's, there is no mercy in the world for these kinds of things, but there has to be mercy in the church.

There has to be. Jesus was a friend with sinners, with tax gatherers, people who were broken, but wanted a hand up, who wanted to repent and to trust in Christ.

And they were attracted to someone who was gentle in that way, who could be very tough against the proud, but gave grace to the humble.

So that, we need a big dose of that. And I think that those who are listening,

I mean, hey, you guys, you're the ones to do it. Start looking around, just start thinking about it. You know, who can you encourage who's a young man in your circles, at your church, on your job, other places, because Lord knows they're not gonna get it probably in many other places.

All right, well, to close the podcast, I am gonna play this interview. This is from three years ago, and I think this will encourage you greatly.

And just with just the new cycle this week, particularly today,

I think it will give you some food for thought. So God bless, more coming.

Please check out the episode that I'm dropping tomorrow. It's a very important one on Christian nationalism and the proposition nation.

And it's an angle I haven't heard others take, but check it out. God bless. Hi, it's

John Harris with the Conversations That Matter podcast. Today I have my good friend with me, Frank Russo. Frank, good to have you.

Great to be here. We're gonna be talking about the alt -right today, which I think is a very beneficial discussion given, well, the current state of politics over the last couple of years.

And Frank is actually a convert from the alt -right to Christianity. We're gonna walk through that conversion, how it happened.

And I think there's a lot of ramifications, implications that people can draw from your story. So, Frank, why don't you walk us through, first of all, what was your spiritual journey like at the beginning?

What was your family's religion? What did you believe about God? And then tell us, at what point did you become part of what you say is the alt -right?

How old were you? Well, my family was always nominally very culturally Catholic but they never really believed a lot of the things that even their own church taught.

My belief in God was that he was there but that it had very little impact on my life. It had very little meaning one way or the other.

And I think that led me to have this sort of outlook on life that, well,

I could do anything and get away with it and I'll make up later. But I was about, oof,

I'm gonna say 16 when I was first introduced to the alt -right by my cousin.

I looked up to him. He was everything that I wasn't. He was tall, athletic, handsome, good with ladies.

I was none of those things. And he had always kind of been my mentor politically.

He introduced me to libertarianism and I kind of embraced that for a while after the solid conservatism of my youth up until about 2011 or so.

Then I became very libertarian. And after 2012, when everything kind of collapsed around me, we lost the election.

I had campaigned for Nan Hayworth and she lost. And my first introduction to real life politics was just an utter dismal failure.

And it led me to a lot of depression. And I was like, I thought we could fight for ideals and we would win on merit because how could someone not see the moral good of what we're preaching?

And it didn't work. I failed. So I spent the next few years just kind of not caring, but also caring a lot in that kind of micro -ism of youth.

And when I was 16, my cousin introduced me to a group called American Renaissance. And it's an umbrella of the alt -right, which is a very varied and diverse group of people.

Yeah, I was gonna ask you that. How would you define alt -right? Because everyone thinks neo -Nazis, Klansmen, racists, but it's kind of more than just,

I mean, you would say that I think that's kind of the element you were converted to as a racially charged, but it's more than just.

I mean, it's monarchists, it's theocrats, there's even black nationalists,

Asian nationalists. It's really kind of any form of racial nationalism. And I didn't subscribe to the term neo -Nazi.

I preferred national socialist because it sounded more intellectual. I didn't wanna be one of those screeching idiots on the street.

And of course, because no one knows history anymore. When you say national socialist, they have no clue you're talking about the Nazis. It made me sound like I had a party platform that was good.

Just so people know, the Nazis, where if you don't know, that's the National Socialist German Workers Party.

So when you say national socialist, that is, you're talking about the Nazi ideology.

Yes, and it was just very hard to move on in life once because the conspiracy, that's what gets you.

Because it's not really just aimless hatred of blacks or Hispanics, although that's part of it, but it's the conspiracy that white interests have been subverted by different platforms and agencies and plans and laws.

And this inevitably led me back to Jewish people. And my cousin was very big on pushing that with me, that he said pornography,

Hollywood, these are all Jewish byproducts. And at first I argued with him because I'd always been a staunch defender of Israel because of my conservatism.

But he started pulling up facts and statistics and all sorts of things.

He even had me convinced of Holocaust denial for a while. Wow. Yeah, because the way they platform things is it sounds so intelligent.

Because they pull math, they pull statistics, they pull all sorts of different things and they push them together into a platform that sounds good.

But it's utter horror at the bottom of it. Yeah, would you say that the, what you're describing right now, that the alt -right or this national socialism that you adopted, this is the reverse mirror image of social justice politics in the sense that the oppressor and oppressed categories have been kind of reversed?

Oh, most certainly. So neo -Nazism is just social justice for white people. Yeah, so you were a social justice warrior.

Oh yes. Only a white social justice warrior, okay. And not one that advocated for other groups.

Right. So when people, well, so you were in, you were 16, 17, I believe you had told me in a previous conversation about when you adopted this, you were in high school, you said your cousin's intelligent, he's good looking, he's good with women.

And you said you weren't those things. No, not at all. Were you bullied, were you persecuted in school? Yes, and that's an undercurrent that people don't appreciate about the alt -right.

Because it's a young group. It's mostly 20 -year -olds to 30 -year -olds. It's a young group that have a victim complex, and that victim complex has to be developed.

And something that always struck me was during the vicious bullying I had received over the years, a good number of them were of other races.

So these things that my cousin was telling me, they appealed to me, because they justified my victim complex, and they made those people look bad, not as a symptom of their character.

So you're saying this political ideology justified your personal sin. Oh yes, most certainly. And you also found in a group that,

I'm assuming through online, social media, they accepted you. They were your friends. You were in the trenches with them against an enemy.

You felt like you were doing something worthwhile. And then those who are pushing more of an egalitarian, communist, in your mind, maybe leftist view.

They were the enemy. But they weren't accepting you. They were making fun of you. They were bullying you. So they weren't appealing because of that.

So you kind of got almost pigeon -holed into going that direction, because of the influences in your life.

And the state of the modern American leftist is such that, if you disagree with any of their platforms, by and large,

I'm not saying every leftist, of course, but what I am saying is that, they've adopted such principles that make the alt -right swell in numbers, simply because there's so many disaffected.

So wait, you're saying the left creates the alt -right? Oh, yes, we're a direct response to leftist policies.

That's why the mirror image, then. It's just the opposite of that. White privilege has done more as an ideology for the alt -right than the

National Socialism would ever do. So you were sitting in maybe social studies class or history class, and you heard things like white privilege.

That would make, that actually motivated you to - That aggravated me beyond end.

Yeah, you're saying, you're blaming me for things that I wasn't involved in. Well, I'm gonna -

By the content of my skin, not my character. Right, yeah. It's a direct reversal of what was once preached in America.

The content of your character and not your skin color. So you made this switch when you were 16 or 17.

You were a politically -minded young man. And then, fast forward a few years, and you're 19 at this point, and your friend invites you to, you're a nominal

Catholic, and he invites you to come to this evangelical college career group. What was that like?

It was strange, because I had what I thought was brotherhood on the alt -right, or racial solidarity.

But when I came to college and career, I saw something that was purer, and it looked real.

Because it's easy to say, oh yeah, you're my best friend behind a computer screen. But here

I actually saw it, that they were actually helping each other with their struggles. They weren't tearing each other down.

And they were approaching disagreements with compassion. So the community you thought you would find in the alt -right, you didn't find there.

And you saw something that you didn't even, maybe weren't exposed to, and it was attractive.

It was a real community. And that was the initial thing, I guess, that attracted you somewhat to Christianity, and to Jesus, and to the

Bible, okay. But it wasn't a full attraction, I would say. Because I liked what was being done, not what was being preached.

I wanted to have this solidarity, but also my racial ideas. So one of your sins still, but to have a community.

I walked in thinking I could convert everyone else. Did you convert anyone else? No, not unhappily so, looking back on it.

And so no one in the group was neo -Nazi -sympathizing at all. In fact, the exact opposite.

But they received you as someone who was a broken sinner, disagreed with you, but they didn't dehumanize or demonize you, they loved you.

And that was the attractive thing. They had treated you differently than other people who had also disagreed with you.

They didn't demonize you like your other nemeses online or otherwise.

So that's interesting. So that was, it didn't push you away. But we know as Christians that it is the spirit of God who has to convert the soul by motivating someone to have new desires, to repent of their sin, to put their trust, their faith in Jesus Christ for their salvation.

And so it doesn't come just from a community welcoming you, although of course that helps and God wants us to do that.

It was a step in the door, I would say. It was what God used to first get me to say, like, hey, look, what you want isn't coming from what you're doing, you know.

But fast forward, what, two years, or maybe a year after this point, and this is, you know, you give me a call after your friend who invited you, he was kind of walking you through some basics of Christianity, but then you give me a call out of the blue,

I haven't seen you for a few months. And you say, can we talk? And we go out to a diner and you were doubting

God's existence, I think you had said you were suicidal at that point. Oh, yes, I've always struggled with depression.

But at this point in my life, it was a very deep, deep rut, and I was considering ending it all.

And so we sat at that diner, and I remember bringing you through presuppositional apologetics, and I was trying my best to give arguments, counter -arguments for some of the reasons that you were doubting that God could be there and that he existed.

And later on, I found out, it was two weeks later, you said you got saved. And I never led you in a prayer, like a sinner's prayer.

I prayed with you, but I didn't say, repeat after me and you'll be saved. I was gonna let God handle that aspect of it.

But two weeks later, I end up hearing your story about how you got saved, and I said, well, what was it that saved you?

Or what was it that I said, because you said I had some doing in this, that sort of made its way to your heart?

And you said it was not any of the things that were apologetics, it was actually something I said where I doubted your salvation.

I said, I don't think you're a Christian. You don't know if God exists. You're not living a life for God. Doesn't sound like you're safe.

So that was the thing that started getting you to think about whether or not you were.

And so what were your thoughts like at that point? Well, my thoughts were that alt -right, people on the alt -right are very naturally very identitarian, it's just who we are.

And being a Catholic, or at least a Christian of some color or vein, was part of my identity.

And when that was taken away from me, ideologically, because it said, you show no fruit of this, that this isn't what you identify with.

You hold views that are counter to this. That was taken away from me, and that was a little harsh, because that was what

I was, it was my ace in the hole in the back to justify all my cruddy behavior.

Jesus will save me, because he said so, and it doesn't matter how bad I am. So what you're saying, it sounds like, is that your sin was exposed and rebuked instead of, whereas the alternative, or what had happened before, which is when people disagreed with you, they demonized you.

I was exposed and rebuked, not my sin. Not your sin, but this has actually got underneath the root cause of these things.

And so, was there a moment you prayed a prayer, or did you just wake up one day and you said, well,

I guess I'm saved. I desire God, I hate my sin, I trust in him. I mean, how did that process?

Well, I went home, and I was thinking on what you said, and I spent a lot of time alone, and I prayed a lot.

And I just came to the realization that I'm not happy because I'm not making

God happy. I'm not doing what's good for, what is good in his eyes.

And that was a tough realization because I had to come to the conclusion that it's not all about me. I'm a very small, insignificant part of this world, and I'm not gonna change the world,

I'm not gonna be the next Benito Mussolini that goes out and conquers Africa or whatever.

I'm not gonna do any of that. So you might not want to aspire to be the next Benito Mussolini since, well,

Hitler's overused. I was gonna say, yeah, that's true. But even if you agree with his ideology, he didn't really win.

He wasn't successful. But I came to the conclusion that I needed to change.

I was the problem in my own life, I was my worst enemy. My sin was my own worst enemy, and I was completely culpable for that.

And the wages of sin or death, and that was something that stuck with me for a long time. And it came to my conclusion,

I'm gonna die, and I'm not gonna die with Christ, and I'm gonna go to hell. And I think that was the real turning point for me.

So it wasn't, wow, I'm racist, and that's wrong. It was actually much deeper than that.

It was, wow, I'm a sinner, I've offended God, and people that are made in his image, I've said things.

The things I said, they were just awful, just venom -filled, just hatred.

Looking outside that person that I was, I would never wanna be that person.

That person is just not likable. There's no redeeming qualities in him.

He's just someone that's spewing hate, and that's who I was. That was something that was really hard to come to the conclusion of, that just,

I'm a horrible human being. It was just tough, because I was convinced

I was right for so long. What did you feel like, then, when you realized you were saved? Was there joy there?

Well, the direct words I used, and I still feel this way, I feel that my debt had been paid, because I knew that I owed something.

You can't just do all these horrible things and not have something coming to you, and that was damnation.

At this moment that I, it wasn't a direct moment, it was over time, but I began to trust

Jesus and desire the things that he would want. And it was just a sudden change,

I felt, like I didn't have this hate anymore. It wasn't there. I was no longer motivated to pick up the keyboard and fight the meme war.

The meme war, yeah. I was just, it was a change. So what advice would you have for those, especially social justice warriors who happen to be

Christian? There's a lot of, people are surprised now, older folks especially, but there's a lot of seminaries and institutions of higher learning that are

Bible schools and Christian affiliated that now have a lot of students who want to go out and they want to change the church or change

Christianity. And they're applying leftist categories usually to that in some way.

And they see alt -right people, like you used to be as the problem with America or the problem with Western culture.

So what advice would you have for them? Because I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and say they'd rather convert people so that they're

Christians like yourself rather than destroy them. That's a hard benefit of the doubt from what

I've seen, but I'll give it to them. I'm sure there are some Christians. Yeah, let's give them that benefit. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

So if they were interested in combating the alt -right in converting people who are alt -right, what advice?

Well, first, I would say abandon your own identitarianism because that's not going to convince someone.

You're not going to replace one form of identitarianism that's contrary to that individual with another form of identitarianism that is completely different than anything that they can relate to.

Stop with these group categories, oppressor and oppressed, because that's what I was doing. So you're saying identitarianism on a social level.

It needs to be eradicated. Not a spiritual level, but on a social level. Because we have a unique identity in Christ altogether, and that's the most beautiful thing you could aspire to.

But this racial identitarianism needs to die off in all forms. So I'm going to stop you right there.

I want to hear your second thing. So if someone came to you and said something like, you need to give, your white privilege is a problem.

You need to support some leftist cause or give your money to help people that are of different races or ethnicities, that wouldn't be appealing before you were a

Christian. That wouldn't have been an appealing thing to you. I'd have to ask where in the Bible it says that I have to do that on a racial scale.

I should just do these things because I want to do these things, not because I'm white and I need to atone for something. So you're already seeing this as an alternative gospel.

It's works -based salvation. That's what it is. If you self -flagellate enough, you whip your own back enough, and you appear upset enough about your race, you'll get into good graces.

So what you're saying is that you'll preach grace, not guilt, which is what that is when they're getting down on you for being white or something like -

Or at least preach real guilt. Like, hey, you looked at that woman with lust that's committing adultery.

Or you, not even just racially saying something that's racist, you put that person down for no reason.

Your actions are sinful, not that your skin color is sinful. Because everyone's awful. Yeah, yeah.

Without Christ, everyone's awful. My second presumption would be to act in love because these people are not going to be converted by seeing the very enemy that they've been trained to hate.

Good point. Propaganda is very effective. And once you have a scarecrow image of the enemy and you see it in action, you're going to go after it.

Like a greyhound chasing a rabbit, you're going to go right after it. So project the opposite of what they are.

Project what Christ wanted. Because that's what helped convert me. I saw what

Christ wanted, and that was different than what I had. And I wanted that. Are there any final thoughts that you have, things that maybe

I should have asked that you'd want to add? Well, I would just say that the alt -right is not going to go away.

It's always going to be here. It's always going to be in some form. Simply because there's always going to be people who are disenfranchised.

And they don't see their own sin as the problem. And you can see this across all spectrums of people.

Don't be confused in thinking that this is just a white problem. It's most certainly not.

I'm saying it is a problem in white communities, but it's also a problem. I mean, look at the black Israelites.

Look at all these, what was that? So ethnic pride plagues every racial category.

Oh yes, I would say that. And as soon as you get to that assumption, you start looking at neo -Nazis a little different.

Because they're not this anomaly. I guess that would be my major thing to say.

Well, thank you. Thank you. I sure hope that helps those out there who are trying to figure out how to deal with those who are on the alt -right.

Maybe you have a family member or just someone that you care about that you know and you want to see them converted.

You want to see them come to Christ. The gospel is the answer for that. Oh, of course. And if you are someone on the left, maybe that hates people from the alt -right,

I hope this will at least maybe convince you that that's maybe not the best reaction, that there's all sorts of blind areas that we all have and there's sin that we all have.

And I think you did an excellent job just saying that the sins that you were involved with in regards to race, racism, or thinking ethnic pride, that these are issues that plague every single person out there, every group of people.

Not just me, but the group that you were with. Yeah. So we've been here for thousands of years and it's always been a problem.