February 26, 2016 Show with Dennis E. Roe on Confronting the False Gospels of Liberalism & Romanism on the Mission Field

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet

Earth, listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 26th day of February, 2016, and this day has been a long time coming.

I've been wanting to interview my guest today for quite a while, and different providential occurrences hindered that until now, but his name is

Dennis Rowe, and for years I have been receiving his very inspiring and encouraging biblical devotionals that he sends via email that basically are the writings of some of the greatest heroes of Christian history, both the past and the present, and Dennis Rowe was ordained in 1982 and received into the

Reformed Church in the United States, also known as the RCUS.

He was the organizing pastor for Covenant Reformed Church in Carbondale, Pennsylvania from 1982 to 1995, and the organizing pastor for Covenant Reformed Church in Grass Valley, California from 1995 to 2015, where he is now the elected pastor emeritus, and he has served as a chaplain for the 25th

Infantry Division Association from 1995 to 2000, and he is now serving as a chaplain for the

Calvary Association from 2000 into the present. I should have said cavalry, not

Calvary. I'm so used to saying the Calvary. We're going to be talking about Westminster biblical missions today, and we're going to be talking about confronting the false gospels of liberalism and Romanism on the mission field.

Our guest, Dennis E. Rowe, has been a board member of Westminster Biblical Mission from 1983 to 1988, recording secretary at Westminster Biblical Missions from 1984 to 1989, a

Foreign Missions Committee member at the Reformed Church in the United States from 1985 to 1988 and from 2014 through next year, and he has been on mission trips to Mexico, Taiwan, South Korea, Pakistan, Hungary, Holland, Romania, Russia, Cyprus, Egypt, Northern Kenya for the

Sudanese refugees, and Southwestern Kenya, and today, since 1990, he has been and is still currently the general secretary for Westminster Biblical Missions, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Dennis E.

Rowe. Thank you very much, Chris. It's my privilege to be here today.

And let me announce our email address if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Dennis regarding confronting false gospels on the mission field.

Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. And our guest is also, just to let you know, he's written for some publications such as the

Reformed Herald Flashes, which is a 25th

Infantry Division Association publication, McKenzie's Raiders, which is a three -quarter

Cavalry Association publication, and he writes a bi -monthly newsletter for Westminster Biblical Missions for the

Pakistan Lahore Ministry. But let me also introduce you,

Dennis, to my co -host today, the Rev. Buzz Taylor. And the

Rev. Buzz Taylor has served as pastor in Fundamentalist Baptist, Charismatic Pentecostal, and Church of God, Finley, Ohio congregations and is now a theologically

Reformed Christian. He has served as the pastor of at least one Presbyterian congregation and is currently a member of a local

PCA congregation. And it's my honor and privilege to have you back in studio as my co -host,

I almost said co -pastor, my co -host, Rev.

Buzz Taylor. Hello, I'm glad my schedule has allowed me to be back once again, and it's good to meet you,

Dennis. Yes, good to meet you too, Buzz, and enjoy your pilgrimage there spiritually.

I'm sure there are many people who are just as spiritual as you. Yes, we've been around the block. Well, before we even go into a description of the

Westminster Biblical Mission, I want to hear more about the Reformed Church in the

United States, also known as the RCUS. That is probably less known than some of the larger

Reformed denominations like the PCA, Presbyterian Church in America, the

OPC, Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and some others. But tell us something about the

RCUS. I know that I remember the RCUS when it was called the Eureka Classes.

So do I, part of it. Yes, it was the

Eureka Classes. I'll give you a little history. There is the

Senate of the Reformed Church in the United States. Lord willing, we'll meet in May, and it will be the 270th

Senate. Actually, it's the oldest denomination,

I believe, begun in the United States. Wow, I didn't know that. Some of the church buildings in Pennsylvania housed

Washington's troops during the War for Independence. But what happened was that at one time we were the largest

Reformed denomination, a quarter of a million people. That's going back in the early 1900s.

But the movement of theological liberalism got root in our church, sadly, and the whole movement was bigger was better, and the

Bible became lesser and lesser significant through that whole movement. Some of the leaders then were very influential men.

Philip Schaaf, the great church historian, was actually involved in it. Then another man named

Nevin was quite influential. He began teaching in a theological school in Pennsylvania, elevating the sacraments and things of that nature.

The church and its ecumenicity, that had to take preference over everything.

If you were to go to the seminary that used to be connected with us in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, you kind of see that displayed when you go in their chapel today, the history of it.

You'll see a stained glass window for John Calvin, John Knox, Luther, but then it'll move on and you'll have

Mother Teresa, some popes, and whomever.

That's where they are theologically. When they started the mergers, in ecumenism we always want to merge, get bigger, bigger is supposedly better.

They, in the early 30s, merged to make the

Evangelical and Reformed Church. In fact, you can still find some congregations scattered around Pennsylvania that still go as E and R, you know, the

Evangelical Reformed. But then they weren't happy there. What they did was they incorporated a lot of the

Brethren. Actually, the Reformed Church in the U .S. had a nickname of the

German Reformed Church, and they kind of had a thing, anything that was German was good.

I've heard that before. Especially in the 30s, you know. Well, in the 30s, that was a very terrible idea.

Well, eventually they merged again with Brethren, Congregational, a whole bunch of different groups, and you have the

United Church of Christ. Right, very liberal. Very far from Historic Biblical Christianity.

Oh yeah, I actually organized a public theological debate featuring my friend,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who's a Reformed Baptist, and a cleric within the

United Church of Christ, Barry Lynn. Barry Lynn, who was an

ACLU attorney and is currently the President of Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

And Dr. Lynn, United Church of Christ minister, was defending homosexuality in the debate as a legitimate

Christian lifestyle. Well, when I was pastoring in Pennsylvania for a little antidote,

I met this brother, and he was a pastor in the UCC, as we call it, and was really lamenting how bad it was.

Of course, my encouragement was to come out from among them, but you know, the battle for him, he'd spent so many years, and then his retirement was threatened, etc.

I'm happy to say that that brother did take a stand and separate it. But he told me that in one of their meetings in the

Senate, if you even tried to bring up an idea like pro -life, or speak against homosexuality, they would shout you down.

You weren't even allowed to speak. So much for liberalism.

Yes, and I hate to keep dropping names, but another debate that I arranged many years ago, back in the 90s,

I believe, was a radio debate between my friend Dr. James White, and he was debating a

United Methodist physician and a seminary professor for the

United Methodist denomination, and he was pro -abortion. And we were debating on abortion, and the man actually told

Dr. White to go to hell and hung up on him when Dr. White asked him a very simple question, do you believe that Jesus Christ is your

Lord and God? And he told him to go to hell, and that was a personal and private belief that was none of his business.

I had a similar experience. The church building we bought in Pennsylvania, when

I was pastoring there, had been owned by the Evangelical Lutheran Church, which certainly isn't

Evangelical. And I was talking to their, as they called them, priest, and he was just adamantly opposed to the

Bible having any authority or any value, really. And I tried to give a good apologetic for the authority of Scripture.

He got so angry, he threw the Bible at me and said, my faith isn't based on this blankety -blank book.

And it was just stunning to see the hatred and the animosity to the

Word of God, and really to Christ himself. Now, obviously, as you know, some of the different Reformed groups use different confessional standards.

Some use the Westminster Confession and catechisms, some use the Three Forms of Unity.

Where is the RCUS in that regard? The RCUS holds the

Three Forms of Unity as our standards, as far as doctrinal standards, of course, subservient to Scripture.

And that would be the Belgic Confession, the Heidelberg Catechism, and the Synods of Dort, correct?

You got it. What happened with us was that when the mergers were coming about, that one of the

Classes, the Eureka Classes, as you mentioned earlier, did not go with the merger.

It was the only one. And that's how we got the name for over 50 years of the

Eureka Classes. We didn't have a Synod then, but we organized a

Synod. I was there for that, and we have four Classes now. And we're still not a large church, about 50 congregations.

But, you know, we're faithful to the Word of God. You know, the issues of homosexuals practicing such in the

Church, and members, or women in the ministry, or questioning the authority of Scripture, they're not issues in our church at all.

It's not even open for discussion. Well, I guess that there is something to be said of smaller being better sometimes then.

Because the bigger you are as an organization, the likelihood that things like that are going to eventually creep in.

I'll barely be in 5 '4", I certainly agree. And what are some of the other unique things about the

RCUS that may make you stand out as a denomination? Well, we still practice the catechizing of our children.

We, the pastors, work with the children, depending on the child, 10, 11, 12 years old, to begin the memorization of the

Heidelberg Catechism. And then we do have the practice of confirmation. It's not a sacrament, it's simply we're discipling our children.

And we want them to confess Christ, you know, by God's grace. And just because they memorize the catechism isn't a given that they're automatically confirmed.

You know, we're Bible -believing and evangelical in the true sense of the word. We know our children need to be regenerated.

They need to be born again. And we don't presume upon God. We don't believe in presumptive regeneration.

We believe that. But at the same time, we believe our children are important. They, of all people, need to be discipled.

And that's what we're doing. That's a distinctive... Yeah, you would take a similar view to my friend

Dr. Joel Beakey, although he is a Pato Baptist, those in his fellowship of churches view the children as a mission field.

They need to be born again. That's right. Amen. No doubt about it. Amen. Anything else?

I know that there is also some disagreement amongst some of the

Reformed denominations regarding the use of modern translations of the

Bible within reason and so on. Do you have any official position on that?

You know, it's the liberty of the congregation, but I would say it's

King James Bible, but by that I include the New King James, which really is the fifth edition of the

New King James. Yes, yeah. We're conservative in that regard, you know, but a pastor has a liberty if he wants to cite, you know, other translations and so forth.

Of course, we want our pastors to be competent enough that they can translate themselves as well.

Another distinctive is, you know, we're careful about communion. We're not closed communion, although people like to level that at us.

It's guarded communion. If we have someone who comes to one of our congregations and we don't know them, we ask if they desire if we're having the

Lord's supper that day, that they let it be known to one of the elders so that we can speak with them to see that they at least have, you know, an understanding of the gospel and of who

Christ is. And we do ask them if they're a member in a Bible -believing church, you know, which they should be.

If, you know, sometimes there's good reasons why they're not, they might have moved or whatever. We're not, you know, intolerant about it.

We're patient with them, but we're concerned that they, you know, are committed to the body of Christ.

You ask those questions. And, well, one of the main themes that we're speaking on today, obviously, is that you as a group, the

Westminster Biblical Mission, are confronting the false gospels of liberalism and Romanism.

And among that group of heretical issues to confront is the modern ecumenical movement.

Now, obviously, Christians should have a biblical approach to ecumenism.

They should not be opposed to all ecumenism. And I'm just wondering how far the

RCUS would go on that. Do you have any kind of fellowship with, like, Reformed Baptists, such as myself, who adhere to the 1689

London Baptist Confession? Or... Well, we would have fellowship, certainly. We wouldn't consider them, you know, unbelievers or false church.

But we wouldn't have what's called a, you know, we have a specific relationship outlined in our

Constitution for the denomination of having a fraternal relationship. That's where you're, you know, basically on the same page, you know, with most everything.

For example, we have a fraternal relationship with the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, the

Reformed Presbyterian Church in North America, the Covenanters, and who else?

The United Reformed Churches, also the

Canadian and American Reformed Churches. We've not been able to get squared away with the

PCA. We certainly respect them, you know.

Now, I understand from your own biographical sketch, you went to John Wesley College.

I did. I was the only living Calvinist they ever saw. I thought they were all dead.

That's what we're told, anyway. Yes, a bunch of dead guys. So, you were already a

Calvinist when you went to John Wesley? I went to seminary first, yes. Oh, so you went to the

Reformed Episcopal Seminary before you went? Yes, they allowed you to go, and so I got a diploma.

Then I went and finished my undergraduate work and came back and was given, you know, my

MDiv, Masters of Divinity. This is a shot in the dark here, but did you happen to know my dear friend who is now with the

Lord, Dr. Robert J. Cameron, who was a student? Oh, Bob and I were very good friends.

Wow, what a small world. Ladies and gentlemen, I did not know that before this interview. Yeah, Dr.

Cameron and I were very, very close friends as well, and he was close to my late wife.

He was a precious brother in Christ, for certain. And he preached in our congregation here the year before he passed away.

Wow, that is something. Well, I've got to send you an

MP3 link of a couple of my interviews with him on the Old Iron Church. Oh, that'd be great. He did a wonderful program on the things that he was very distressed about and found an urgent need to warn members of the black church at large, those involved in mainstream

African -American Christianity. He had a very bold stance against many of the serious heresies and dangerous waters that many of these professing

Christians and churches are basically wading in.

He was a very bold voice, and he let the chips fall where they may, for the cause of truth, did not care the slightest bit about being politically correct, and was more concerned over...

Bob, I knew. Yeah, he was much more concerned over honoring and obeying

God and rescuing the souls of sinners than he was about hurting sinners' feelings.

Well, the church where he served in New Jersey, I preached there.

Maybe it's three years ago now. Bob wasn't there, but the pastor there now,

Keith Graham, is a very dear friend as well. So that church is still functioning? Oh, yes.

Mount Carmel Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Somerset, New Jersey.

Is it still an OPC congregation? Uh, well, you know, it's been three years, and I don't know that they've changed.

Yeah, because they were a Reformed Episcopal congregation initially. Right. Then they became PCA, and then they became

OPC. And this may get a lot of our listeners scratching their heads, but one of the main issues that caused

Dr. Cameron to leave the PCA is that he was very upset that a very major congregation in the

PCA had celebrated, believe it or not, hold on to your hats, folks, they celebrated

Martin Luther King Jr. Day. And he, as a black man, found that offensive that a church would do that because of Dr.

King's doctoral dissertation denying the pillars of the faith, such as the deity of Christ, the virgin birth, substitutionary atonement, and things like that, bodily resurrection.

And he actually, that was one of the straws that finally broke the camel's back for him, and the fact that the church was not at all disciplined.

But that's a whole other issue for another day. So, you are now actively involved.

Oh, by the way, I just wanted to let our listeners know that the website for the RCUS is rcus .org.

That's the Reformed Church of the United States, rcus .org, if anyone wants to find out more about that denomination.

And now we're going to be delving more into deeper levels with the

Westminster Biblical Mission and your confrontation of false gospels on the mission field.

Tell us, our listeners, about the Westminster Biblical Mission. Well, Westminster Biblical Mission was founded in 1973 by two missionaries that were kind of disenfranchised, left on the field by a certain denomination, which

I won't mention. But not mine, so that's good.

But these brothers realized, I mean, they were committed to Presbyterianism, knew that they needed government, and they weren't to be on their own.

So they asked some other brothers, pastors, and elders, and Presbyterian churches if they would help form a board, and they did.

These missionaries had been working on the field in Brazil, but were forced to come off because they were left high and dry with no source of income or anything.

So they founded Westminster Biblical Mission, and we have the

Westminster Standards as our doctrinal standard. We do have a constitution as well that spells out things related to how the mission functions and so forth.

But we have a board that we're accountable to, as well as a treasurer, and so forth, so that there is that, you know, good accountability that we're not just a law unto ourselves.

I, as General Secretary, represent the board when it's, you know, not functioning, which is quite often because it only meets twice a year.

So I represent the board and see that I carry out, you know, whatever the goals are or anything for that year and so forth, and as well watch over and help each of the mission fields that we have.

I came on board in 1982, so the mission wasn't that old, and I'm kind of getting to be one of the old guys involved in the mission now.

We just lost one of our founders, Reverend Earl Pinckney. I say our loss, but his gain is with his faithful Savior, Jesus Christ.

He went to be with the Lord this past November. He was 91, just an amazing man of God.

He really helped pioneer one of our fields in Pakistan, having traveled there probably 25 times.

Very arduous journey, but like a father in the Lord to me. And Westminster Biblical Missions is committed to historic biblical

Christianity. Of course, doctrinally, as we understand it from the

Westminster standards, is a good expression of the Bible's teaching, but also you might say something that's unique about us in today's world is that we follow what's known by some as a nebious method of doing missions, and that is that we don't attempt to field, so to say,

American missionaries on the field full time. What we do is attempt to find faithful men, faithful leaders in the countries that we're being called to serve in, and work with building them up, seeing that they're faithful men, so that they can do the work of the ministry.

Inherently, that involves theological education and so forth. Go ahead.

That would be a perfect place for us to pick up after the break, because we have to go to station break right now. I'd like to learn more about that.

Obviously, it's a major factor that you're discussing. If anybody would like to join us on the air as well with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dennis E. Rowe of Westminster Biblical Mission in our discussion of confronting the false gospels of liberalism and Romanism on the mission field.

Don't go away. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Dennis E. Rowe, who is the

General Secretary for Westminster Biblical Mission. In studio with me as my co -host today is the

Rev. Buzz Taylor. We are discussing confronting false gospels on the mission field with primary focus on liberalism and Romanism, and if you have a question of your own, email us a question at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Right before the break, you were talking about the Nevious Method of Missions that Westminster Biblical Mission is involved in, and I'm assuming the

Nevious Method is named after the 19th century missionary to China, Presbyterian missionary to China, John Nevious?

You got it. And if you could go and know a little bit more depth about that.

Well, Nevious, I'll just summarize it, he just thought it was much more effective to work with the nationals and build up the national church.

There are a number of reasons for that. One is that when you field a missionary from another country, another culture, he has to spend a good length of time just learning that culture in order to communicate with the people.

Whereas if you have a national, I mean, he knows it. He is someone who has you know, been born there and understands it and doesn't have to go through all that, as well as the language.

I mean, I've known missionaries who were on the field doing the traditional way, and they spent 15, 20 years learning the language and the nuances of it.

I mean, just think of our own language in English and all the slang we have is just so confusing to many people.

But not only that, the cost effectiveness. I mean, someone who lives there in that culture, you know, knows how to live there much more approvably.

I mean, it's just a fact that missionaries that we field, for example, now, for one missionary, you want to say even missionary family, it's minimally $80 ,000 and up that they have to raise just to get on the field.

Our budget for, let's say for example, Pakistan, our largest field in the

Lahore area, we have five Christian schools, 2 ,500 students, a faculty of over 50, plus a lot of other staff, you know, maintenance and all of that.

We have two medical clinics, 35 literacy centers where we teach people to read using the

Bible as the primer. We do all that for $15 ,000 a month.

You know, it's just incredible what we're able to accomplish for so little. We couldn't do that if we were fielding

American missionaries. Now we have Americans here working on our behalf, but you know, a number of them are voluntary.

I mean, I get the biggest salary. I almost feel ashamed saying that, but I get the biggest salary of anyone and I get $1 ,800 a month.

So I'm just rolling in the dough. Donald Trump and his long term.

They just increased that because, you know, recently I've taken the challenge from the brothers.

They wanted me to work, you know, more full -time in the work. You know, it's just come about providentially as I had some health issues last year that I had to make a choice of whether I was going to continue pastoring full -time missions, basically full -time, and I'm also on the faculty of a seminary.

And since we are talking about ecumenism and we did mention a biblical ecumenism that I think would be something that every obedient Christian should be involved in to some degree, the

Westminster Biblical Mission is not exclusively an RCUS parachurch organization, correct?

No. In fact, the RCUS just started supporting Westminster Biblical Missions as a denomination just two years ago.

Okay. And I've been in the denomination over 30 years. Yeah, I figured they're slow, but they get there.

One thing I forgot to ask you about the RCUS, and I'm pretty sure I remembered correctly before I even asked you this, but there is also a division amongst different Reformed denominations about exclusive psalmody versus hymn singing.

I believe you're on the hymn singing side, correct? Yes, we use hymns and instruments and, you know,

I mean, you would say it's traditional if you want to use a description of it, but, you know, we have a directory of worship and we want it to be biblical.

If you read our directory of worship, which is pretty much like the Orthodox Presbyterian churches, you know, it's the focal point of the

Word of God and preaching the Word of God and the sacraments be accompanied with the preaching of the

Word of God, never separating them. You know, we don't believe in what's called sacerdotalism and the elevation of the sacrament.

You can't replace the Word of God. There must be that vibrant preaching of the

Word that accompanies and that's central to all of our services. Yes, in fact,

I remember one of the RCUS pastors told me the best argument

I heard against exclusive psalmody, and this is no offense to my friends who are practicing exclusive psalmody, but he said that the fact that you could not sing praises to Christ by the name

Jesus Christ in song if you were involved in exclusive psalmody.

Of course, the exclusive psalmody advocates are singing praise to Christ because he existed, obviously, as a part of the

Godhead from all eternity, but he by name is the specific reason that it would be a check on the negative side that you cannot sing praises to Jesus Christ by name.

Well, especially, too, that you have hymns in the New Testament and the passages of Scripture that just cry out that it was an early hymn, you know, and that it's phrased that way.

So, what would be the different denominational groups that are cooperating with Westminster Biblical Mission?

Well, the Reformed Presbyterian Church in North America, we've, you know, taken some of their material, even, and have had it translated into the

Urdu language of Pakistan, their Elder's Handbook, an excellent handbook.

You know, and a lot of the churches in Pakistan are exclusive psalmody because that's the only hymnbook they had as Christians.

So, you know, it works very well in that regard, but it's not a position of the

Mission. They're open to use hymns, of course. Same with our denomination. I want to give you a story about facing ecumenism on the field.

You know, I was involved in, you know, Westminster Biblical Mission has fields in Pakistan, Mexico, Central Eastern Europe, and we were in South Korea.

I just recently returned from Nepal, where we may be opening a new field.

But when I first went to Hungary in 1990, the

Reformation came to Hungary, and there is a what's known as the

Hungarian Reformed Church. But we soon discovered that it was quite ecumenical and not in a good and healthy way.

For example, one of their seminaries in Debrecen, Hungary, on the faculty we found that there were

Reformed ministers, but there also were Roman Catholic priests, and even worse,

Unitarian. Wow. I mean, you know, they're not

Trinitarian. They're not believers in our destination, you know. And so it was just deplorable to find that that's where the

Reformed Church had gone to. Reformed in name only. We did find believers there, and we were able to work with them, you know.

That's being ecumenical with them, but based upon Scripture. Yeah, just like there are

Rhino Republicans, there are Rhino Christians. Reformed in name only. Yes, absolutely.

And so one of the things that people immediately may have the hairs in the back of their necks stand on, and what they're hearing may be on the surface sounding like hate, bigotry, prejudice, etc.

Now, the reason that we as Bible -believing Christians would not want to be involved in religious activity with those who are of the

Roman Catholic faith, it really is, the heart of it is the difference in the

Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the heart of why Christians are alive and spreading the good news about Christ is the

Gospel itself. Yeah, you cannot compromise the message, you know.

And often you have that, especially with Catholicism. You know, you look how everybody lauds

Mother Teresa. Well, she, you know, she did some good things in a humanitarian sense, but you know, she was a

Roman Catholic. Where's the Gospel? You know, there's no works of righteousness. That's damnable.

You know, you may have helped their body, but you've lost their soul. You know, we believe, and we stress this as a mission, we don't go to the other extreme where we ignore their bodies.

As I said, in Pakistan, we have two medical clinics. I went to Nepal and we distributed, you know, hundreds of blankets because of the great earthquake there, and so many people didn't even have coverings for the night.

Now, our hearts go out to them that way, but it's in word and deed. They go together.

And to separate them is a travesty. You're denying the

Gospel. You must give the cup of water in Jesus' name. We understand that to be giving the

Gospel as well. Now, to make it clear to some of our listeners who are still confused over, every time

I have a discussion about ecumenism with a good friend of mine who is a Roman Catholic, a staunch defender of Catholicism, but he's also more of a moderate in the fact that he is an ecumenist, and he always says with an angry reply, what do you mean we believe in different Gospels?

We have the same four, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. He doesn't seem to understand what we're talking about, and the fact of the matter is that the

Council of Trent in the 16th century condemned as being anathema, accursed, those who believe that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone.

And they have not repudiated that stand. That's what I tell Roman Catholics all the time.

They're sometimes surprised by it, you know, and I said, well, you need to understand your own position as a church, so to say.

I pastored in Pennsylvania where the community was 95 % Roman Catholic, and so many of them are just ignorant of the

Gospel. It's sad. And of course, what even blurs the distinctions is that you have, since Vatican II, the language just being totally being rewritten for public relations purposes, where you have

Protestants being called separated brothers, and you have, even in the modern catechisms,

Jews and Muslims, and men and women of other religions outside of Christianity may enter into heaven, and they say that the

Muslims even adore the same one true God as they do.

And this adds to the confusion, because the Catholic Church is really, they mock

Protestantism for being guilty of adopting a blueprint for anarchy, because we have allegedly, and this is a false number, but we have allegedly over 30 ,000 denominations.

Well, I'd rather have that liberty than have the totalitarianism of Rome. Right. And the irony, though, is in spite of the fact that there is a totalitarianism, there are probably more divisions within Catholicism than there are within evangelical

Christianity, because you have all different kinds of Roman Catholics, which obviously the clearest example of somebody who has departed from Catholic history is the

Pope, the current Pope, Pope Francis. This guy is really bad.

He is. I mean, you know, they celebrate a mass in a Lutheran church, you're right to take down the walls, he's working, he's the biggest ecumenist they've ever had.

And I have... You know, they've always been syncretistic. You know, they'll do whatever it takes to get somebody in the door, like I put it.

Right. Well, depending upon the era and the culture and so on, it used to be the sword, and now it's blending in with the surroundings.

Yeah. And so we recognize, my guest and I and my co -host, that there are wonderful,

God -fearing Catholic people. In fact, there are Catholic people whose company I prefer over some of my own

Christian brothers. But that does not mean that we are to cooperate with them religiously as if we have the same gospel, because we do not.

Now, obviously, there are Catholic individuals who have the true gospel, but they are believing in the true gospel in spite of what religion they claim to be affiliated with.

Yeah, they're not really Roman Catholics. Right. They're Catholic in name only, or Roman Catholic in name only.

And so do you see... In fact, Buzz, you were asking about this before the show.

But in fact, Buzz, you were asking if you want to repeat the question yourself, but you were saying, is approaching false gospels different on the mission field?

Yes. Well, I was asking Chris, of course, who we're talking to today, and he mentioned the subject, and I was just wondering if there was a difference in approaching false religions on the mission field from approaching them right here in America.

And one of the thoughts that occurred to me was that there may be, and since I'm not a missionary,

I don't know this, but I'm assuming that there may be more of a tendency for missionaries who are alone in a foreign culture to be more willing to bend and cooperate with those within Rome or within some liberal

Protestant groups, just because of the fact that they want to cooperate on perhaps some benevolent efforts of feeding people and clothing them, and it may lead to other kinds of cooperation.

But if you could comment on that. Yeah, we don't do that.

Oh, I'm not saying that you do it. I'm sympathetic to what, you know, the fact is, I mean, in one sense, when

I'm in Pakistan, over the years since I started going there in the 80s, the hostility has just grown exponentially, and you know, in one sense,

I'm happy to see a good old Roman Catholic. You know, at least you can talk to them, even in the immigration issue here in this country.

I would much rather have an illegal

Mexican, you know, you might say an immigrant. They have a respect for Christ.

You can talk to them. Islam is a closed system. I mean, they're not allowed to even really discuss an alternative view.

That's blasphemy in and of itself. And it's a hard nut to crack.

I mean, it's against the law to evangelize or proselytize in Pakistan.

Of course, it is in Israel, too. A lot of people know that. Yeah, yeah, they know that. So when you're on the mission field, according to your own

Westminster Biblical Mission website, you are confronting the false gospels of liberalism and Romanism.

How do you befriend and yet confront those involved in these false gospels?

Well, because what we do is we have what we call

Reformation Bible conferences where we teach and we expose these things. We don't just lay them on the side and say they're not important.

You know, I just, I had two different seminars in Nepal and I had to address their

Pentecostalism. It's a really bad kind.

They're worse than here. Tell us something about the details of that. Well, just the really no need for scripture.

They would never say that. That's the practical effect. The Bible is very secondary.

Because of new revelation, they're claiming. Oh, yeah. And there's a lot of word of faith movement there, too, isn't there?

There is. In the foreign fields. Yeah, and you get gold in your teeth. You just follow

Jesus and, you know, that's what it's all about. Yeah, I even have friends here in the

States who are from Pentecostal backgrounds and from more conservative backgrounds.

In fact, even a few of them have become Calvinists who are very adamantly opposed to that kind of thing as well.

They would even... Oh, yeah. I mean, I have, I know godly people, you know, that put some

Reform folks to shame, you know, who are in the Church, you know, the

Assembly of God. They're godly people and they love the Lord Jesus Christ and his infallible word.

And they would die for Christ and standing on his word. So you do have to sort it out.

You can't put that label on everyone, you know, immediately. But, you know, it is a real problem.

That kind of Pentecostalism, it almost preys upon the ignorant, just as the

Muslims do. I mean, you know, 75 % of the people in Pakistan are illiterate and I almost think they like to keep them that way.

Because whatever the mullah says over the loudspeaker, that's what they're to believe, you know, and they have a bad crop.

It's America's fault, the evil Satan. And these people don't know any better. We have five

Calvin's Academies, as they're called. And, you know, 2 ,500 students.

We're in the slums. I mean, you want to talk about slums, there's a pack of banners.

And these children would have no opportunity for an education if we were not there.

And, you know, I think it's critical. We're looking at things long term, generationally, training these young people up, discipling them, evangelizing the young people.

Our director there, every morning at 5 a .m., has a loudspeaker that goes out through this particular area.

I won't mention it for security reasons, but he tells the people, the children, he says, now children, turn in your

Bibles to page 350, let's say. And the children are in their homes.

They're trained that they do that every morning. And their parents are often illiterate. And here are their children who've been taught to read, and they're so proud of that in a good way.

And they're reading the word of God. And, you know, it's just awesome to see that and, you know, be a part of that and see changing lives.

We also have, you know, sewing classes for the girls, because as Christians, they don't get open opportunity to the jobs.

And so it may be that their family will help them with their income. They'll be dependent upon it. So we give them a trade that way.

And the boys, we've had carpentry class, computers, and some other vocational things.

But we're doing all of that in the context of being trained up in the way they should go in biblical

Christianity, learning of Christ. And what can you tell us about the World Council of Churches?

I know that Westminster Biblical Mission will not cooperate on the mission field with Protestant churches that are attached to it.

No, we won't. It's sad. I mean, you see their effect. In Pakistan, I went to a hospital.

It's supposed to be a Christian hospital. Now, this is an example of liberalism in this.

The church, the, you know, Presbyterian Church USA that started this hospital maintains it.

And yet you cannot find a Christian track anywhere in that hospital.

You can find Muslim tracks. Wow. Yeah, it's just, it's just heart -rending.

What was the purpose of the forming of the World Council of Churches? Well, 1948 is when they formed.

I know that's the year of my birth, so I got it stuck in my mind, you know. The purpose, well, supposedly it was to better help and facilitate

Christian churches throughout the world. But what they've, you know, become is a very political organization.

And, of course, they're socialists to the core, and they're involved in politics.

In 92, I had an audience with one of the bishops in Hungary, and I pleaded with him not to take any money from the

World Council. That, I said, when you do that, they're going to be strings attached.

And, you know, oh, I won't do that. But sadly, he did. And sure enough, strings were attached, but they ended up excommunicating all of our students that were in our

Bible school in Hungary. They were excommunicating your students?

Yes. And the reason being? Because they were part of our group, and they weren't a part of their, you know, they had to be a part of their official group.

So it's really the phrase, the intolerance of tolerance, comes to mind, which is actually a title of a

D .A. Carson book. But the theme, the title, the intolerance of tolerance, it's such a hypocrisy when the liberal organizations and ecumenical religious groups and so on put on a facade of being more loving than evangelicals and Bible believers and conservative

Christians are. But, and yet, in reality, they very often will rear their ugly head of hatred when it comes to the way that they really behave.

We can talk about hatred and theft and murder. Wow. Well, let's talk about that when we return from the break.

We have to go to another commercial break. Okay. And we do have a couple of listeners who have emailed questions as well.

If you'd like to join them, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dennis E. Rowe of Westminster Biblical Mission on Confronting False Gospels on the

Mission Field. We'll be right back. Contact me,

Mike Gallagher, financial consultant at 717 -254 -6433.

Again, 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron. Today we have as our guest Dennis E.

Rowe of Westminster Biblical Mission. We're discussing confronting false Gospels on the mission field.

In the studio with me is my co -host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor. And I just want to make a quick announcement.

This coming Monday, the 29th of February, we do have a leap year this year, the 29th of February from 4 to 6 p .m.,

we have an interesting program on Christians and gun ownership.

That's a very controversial issue, especially every election season when you have people being polarized over gun ownership and gun control laws and so on.

Our first guest on Monday will be John R. Lott, the author of More Guns, Less Crime.

And following John Lott will be Dr. Ron Gleason, who is a highly respected

Reformed scholar and pastor, and he is going to be affirming the

Christians' right to gun ownership. And that will be this

Monday, the 29th of February at Iron Sharpens Iron. And once again, let me repeat our email address.

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com. If anybody has a question for our guest today, Dennis E. Rowe, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And before the break, you were beginning to mention the fact that liberalism has reared its ugly head in some really horrific ways that include theft and murder, if you could continue.

Well, regarding that, I'll give you an example about what happened in Russia in 2008.

It kind of went under the radar, you didn't hear very much about it at all, was that Putin had the

Doma, that's like their Congress, pass a law that all

NGOs, non -governmental organizations, had to be licensed.

And effectively what happened then was that shut down all the

Bible schools, seminaries, etc. And took properties, and the

Russian Orthodox Church took part in that, really.

I don't know any better way to describe it. In fact, they took a lot of the properties, claiming that they were theirs, and were entitled to them.

And there's one evangelical seminary that they left open as a token seminary, if you will.

I mean, it's a good school, they're Bible -believing. Most of the faculty are

Arminian, but they have Reformed Brothers on there. I met with them a year and a half ago, and they asked me to come and to help.

And by teaching there, the evangelical seminary in Moscow would allow having sort of an interim period where you would have courses taught by Reformed pastors and so forth.

But back to the stealing, the taking of property, and those who didn't comply.

I mean, you know, you're talking about prison. That certainly happened in Hungary, to where people disappeared, and yet the state church was compliant with all of that.

And people disappeared, they died, they were never seen again. I would categorize that as murder.

Maybe somebody thinks I'm overreaching, I don't. You disappear, and you're gone, and never heard of.

You know, that's in essence murder. And the church, quote -unquote church, the state church, you know, took part in that.

There were some good pastors left, but they were usually just stuck out in far remote places where they couldn't have any influence.

I had the privilege of sitting with one brother in the Hungarian Reformed Church. They have kind of a different church government than we're used to, where they have a head elder, and then they have bishops.

And the head elder of this one district that is evangelical, Saras Potak is where their seminary is,

I sat with him in this restaurant, and he told me that in this very restaurant, I'd be here, and the waiter was a

Christian, and he would make signals to me whether or not there were any of the

Hungarian secret police were there, and if it was all clear, if we could meet and have a

Bible study. But at times they didn't, and they were arrested and even turned in by people who were professing

Christians. I mean, it's just, for us it's incomprehensible because we've never faced that here, but that happened.

We do have a listener, CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, who says, you're speaking about separatism from those who disagree with you on varying levels of importance, but you make it sometimes sound a lot easier than it really is due to the fact that there are many of us who live in areas where there are no biblically faithful churches to attend.

I happen to be in an area where there's many, but I know of those who are not, and I have in my past lived in places where it was not easy to find a faithful church.

Do you lower your standards in such cases, or do you not go to church at all? Well, you don't.

You don't want to lower your standards. You should be in a church that's Bible -believing. You know,

I mean, I'll give you an example of what I would do personally. I mean, my wife and I were on a vacation.

She had lived in the Virgin Islands as a little girl, and we were able to go there once for a vacation.

I wanted to take her back to see it, and as we went into town, I was looking for a church before we got there even.

We were going to worship on that Sunday, and I saw an advertisement in the paper that said a

Reformed church that was Christ -centered and Reformed in doctrine and Presbyterian in government.

I go, wow, this is great. So on that Sunday, we went there, and providentially it was

Mother's Day, and you know, it was evident right away that the women were doing everything, singing, dancing, preaching, whatever needed to be done, and my wife and I just got up and left.

But we noticed as we went into the city of Charlotte Amalie that sitting up on the hill was this

Calvary Bible church, and we went up there, and it was a Baptist church. It was predominantly black, and I asked, you know,

I asked a fellow at the door. I simply asked him, are you a Bible -believing church? He said, we sure are.

And I said, you know, may we attend? Sure, come on in. And it was great preaching, expository preaching.

It was more than I thought it would be, you know. So I left, you know, the Reformed church that was not good, you know.

I was worshiped in a Baptist church. It was fine. But ideally, I mean, you know, we are committed.

Our mission is Presbyterian and Reformed. Ideally, we would want, you know, we plant churches that are

Presbyterian and Reformed. But you know, we work with other Bible -believing

Christians, and you know, to a certain degree, you know, we just had a

Bible conference in Hungary, and we're meeting in the local Baptist church, because that brother, you know, holds to the doctrines of grace.

And we're more in fellowship with him. That doesn't mean we'll ever have an organic union, but it's a real unity of the

Spirit. Yeah, I mean, as I was even mentioned on previous programs,

I am a Reformed Baptist. I am a thoroughgoing Reformed Baptist, a very strong emphasis on both the

Baptist and Reformed part of that. And yet my co -host here is a Presbyterian, very strong in his convictions of paedo -baptism, and yet we view...

He's praying for you. I'm working on him. I just want you to know. And the powers of darkness shall not overcome me, because I am saved.

But we view each other as brethren. We have visited in fellowship with each other as congregations, but there are limits when you have...

If you really care about theology and doctrine, there are always going to be certain limits. For instance, he would obviously not want his pastor to prohibit parents from baptizing their babies, and I would not want a pastor who did baptize babies, and so on.

So obviously the churches can have fellowship and cooperation, but there are limits.

You're not necessarily going to have... You just can't be organically joined in this world, you know.

Okay, you can still cooperate. You know, you can do deeds of mercy together and, you know, other things, too.

You know, I really do sympathize with our listener here, though, because members of my family, you know,

I think of places where they live, and I have a hard time counseling them what church to go to, because there are no

Reformed voices in their area. Well, I'm reminded, though, of what the late

Greg Bonson said once in a recording I had of his, where he said, you want to go to the best representation of the church of Jesus Christ as you can find in your area, and if it gets really bad to where you just can't take that, then he says it's your duty to start one.

Or move! Or move! I mean, if that is, like, one of the primary things in your life,

I would assume that sacrificing all else and moving would have to be a serious option.

And, of course, if you have enough brethren locally... Like, I know a brother who moved to an area in Florida where there was no

Reformed Baptist church, and he found enough like -minded brethren where they called a pastor from somewhere else, and they planted a church.

So, but we do also have a listener, Arnie, in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says...

This is interesting, because this question also came up during my interview with Todd Friel recently.

The listener says, in Luke 9, we have the disciples saying to Jesus that there were people casting out demons in his name, but they were not a part of Christ's disciples.

And Jesus said, do not hinder him, for he who is not against you is for you.

Why don't you have the same approach with your biblical mission with Westminster?

We do. Okay. We would not seek to hinder someone. How are you meaning hinder?

I mean, there's a liberty that people have even to have their error.

We don't want a state church. We're not promoting that. Our forefathers understood that very well in the formation of this country.

But at the same time, we speak the truth. We're speaking in love. You know, we want to promote the truth, and, you know, we would be tolerant of them as much as, you know, we could say, well, we have to disagree.

Even Paul disagreed with Peter. You can't be silent on the truth. But the way you present it,

I mean, it's because you really care for the person, not just wanting to beat them up theologically or something.

Yeah, people have a very wrong understanding of what love is.

They have a very greeting card theology when it comes to love.

And they think that when you are trying to correct someone in serious error, that that is somehow cruel or hateful or bigoted.

But everybody does that because, in fact, the liberals who say how horrible and ugly and nasty and hateful and bigoted you are for doing that, they're doing that very thing and saying that to the conservatives.

They're making judgment calls about those who are involved in biblical separation.

Am I right? All the time. Yep. And so it is truly one of the most loving things that you could do is correct somebody that you believe is in theological indoctrinal error.

Am I right? Well, yes, because you just take a simple illustration. You have a child that's going to run out into traffic.

You say, well, I don't want to upset the child and holler at him.

You do whatever it takes to stop him. And so it is when it comes to errors that are damnable, especially.

I'm not saying that every disagreement has to do with damnable error. It shouldn't go to that extreme.

But at the same time, we have a body of truth that's worth standing for.

Our logo as a mission, our statement is standing in the faith, defending the faith, and spreading the faith.

All are necessary. And we do have another listener,

Harrison in Mechanicsburg, who says, Am I to understand that the

Westminster Biblical Mission primarily is going to countries where there is already a Christian presence, where you can train up men who are already born again, who are indigenous to the area where you are serving?

Not necessarily, no. No, we go where there's not a church.

We evangelize, we disciple people, you know, and they come to faith in Christ.

No, we're doing the work of evangelism, too. It doesn't mean that we already have a church established or something.

And we have Christopher from Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, asking, I may have missed this, but what countries are you doing the work of missionary evangelism on the globe?

Didn't I just cite them? Well, the person must have tuned in late, I guess. Okay, well,

Westminster Biblical Missions originally started in South Korea and Pakistan for two fields, with the two missionaries that were, so to say, disenfranchised and had to start again, so to say.

They still had a burden for the lost, and they started with you know, no one, you know, to answer the question of doing the work of evangelism and not having a church.

That's exactly the situation we were in. South Korea, we had a brother who came to Christ, and we began meeting in his house, and you know, the short of it is we have a seminary that's graduated,

I don't know, a few thousand graduates now. They've planted over 600 churches.

Of course, Korea's kind of unique that there's been a real spiritual awakening going on there and revival.

I like to call it spiritual awakening. But we, in Pakistan, we did know of a believer who were saying, come over and help us, sort of like the

Macedonian call, you know, and that there was a

Reformed church there, and so we're out doing that. Same in Mexico. We're involved in organizing a presbytery there in the state of Michoacan.

We have a Christian in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, how difficult is it when you are training up disciples on foreign lands to separate those cultural and tribal customs that are innocuous, and not necessarily in any way a contradiction to biblical mandates, and yet are very much a part of the culture and would seem odd not to include them in the worship of the local congregation?

If it's not something that's condered in scripture, you know, there are things that are cultural that, you know, you don't have to change everything.

It doesn't have to have a western flavor. Their music varies, the singing, and, you know, even the way that they sing, and the instruments that they use, or no instruments.

You know, in Pakistan, you know, you have a cultural thing, and I'm sure the influence is because of Islam, is that as the men and women don't sit together, okay, you have women on one side, men on the other, and you have the children separated too.

Yeah, I was actually, I visited a few years ago a congregation in New York that was, everyone in the congregation was from Indian descent.

Either they were themselves from India, or they were, you know, first, second generation

American citizens, and all the women sat on one side, and all the men sat on the other side.

Yeah, you just have to weigh it out, okay? You know, there's a matter of things that are liberty, that it is simply cultural, and it's not forbidden scripturally, and of course, there's a whole argument about a regulative principle of worship, and that, but you know, we do believe in a regulative principle, but we also see that there's a lot of liberty there.

God doesn't tell us every detail of how a worship service is to be conducted.

Yeah, and for our listeners who are unfamiliar with the regulative principle, it's basically that the scriptures have to be the blueprint for all that is being done in a worship service, correct?

Yes. That there has to be a clear example or mandate in the scriptures, you know, that's why most people who adopt the regulative principle would not include dancing and things like that in a worship service.

Am I right? Exactly. But they also take it to some very, very...

Well, there are differences of opinion. Just for listeners who are not familiar with the term regular... Right, some of them have a strict a cappella worship because they don't see...

And some would say you can't celebrate Christmas or anything like that also because we're not told to in scripture, you know, so just to define the words to some.

Right. I guess you would say that some would prohibit the celebration of Christmas at a worship service.

Right. Yeah. I think you have two people who have, you know, they just, they have a wrong understanding of what the regulative principle is.

I mean, looking at it from the outside, you know, there's, as I say, there's a lot of liberty in our church, you know, and I generally think we're to the right of the pill of the hun, you know.

That, you know, there are churches that, you know, might say celebrate

Christmas. I mean, you know, they celebrate the birth of Christ, and there are hymns sung appropriate to that particular season, and there's nothing prohibitive to that.

Yeah. In our thinking. Well, in our thinking, yes, but I had a group working on me a few years ago, they're trying to get me to stop celebrating

Christmas altogether because of the fact that I was against the regulative principle. Oh yeah, always running into that. And, you know, they were also telling me that, you know, you can sing the

Psalms about praising God with the sound of the trumpet, just don't try to do it, because that's a musical instrument, you know.

Well, you know, a key thing theologically in the New Testament, as I challenge them, is the concept or the teaching of the new song that God speaks of, you know, the new song that he gives to us.

And in Revelation, the revelation of Jesus Christ, that new song is to sing of the lamb.

And, you know, I think they're really, you know, missing that, you know, when they try to advocate exclusive psalm, that, you know, we're getting off track a bit.

Yeah, well, the only reason I even brought it up wasn't to get off track, it's because of the fact that, you know, we mentioned the word regulative principle of worship.

Exactly. And, you know, if people start, you know, going online and looking into that, they're going to find all kinds of stuff.

Yeah. And we just have to say to people, be careful as to what really is a regulative principle.

Yes. Because there are those who think you can make it something that it's not. Okay. And we have to go to our final break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the

United States. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. We'll be right back with Dennis E.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back, this is

Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest for the last 90 minutes and for the next half hour, is

Dennis Rowe, Dennis E. Rowe of Westminster Biblical Mission, where he serves as General Secretary.

We are discussing confronting false gospels on the mission field. My co -host and studio with me is the

Reverend Buzz Taylor. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. We have

BB from Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, one of the difficulties

I can imagine there being in the mission field is applying the mandate, the biblical mandate for modest dress among women, where you have all different types of dress codes acceptable in foreign countries, especially in the hot climates.

What do you do in such cases? Uh, really, where we are, that's really not a problem.

It's worse here in the United States, getting people to dress modestly. You know, they're very conservative cultures,

Nepal, Pakistan, India, Mexico. It's really not a problem.

Well, suppose the Westminster Biblical Mission never ventures into Africa or something.

Oh, yes. Yeah, I mean, their dress isn't a problem.

The problem is that they have culturally accepted, you know, almost that it's okay for men to, you know, frequent prostitutes.

One Maasai fellow told the pastor that, you know, God makes allowance for us

Maasai men to go to a prostitute so that we can be better husbands.

Yeah, well, I mean, I've even seen, obviously, on documentaries and so on that there are tribes in various parts of the world where you have women walking around bare -breasted, and they don't even view it as a sexual thing.

Yeah. I mean, what do you do with those extreme circumstances, especially when you're in a jungle climate and so on?

What do you do with those kinds of things as a Christian missionary? That's true. I forgot. Yeah, up in northern

Kenya, where I was the year before last, some of the women, you know, did go braless, but, you know,

I never even thought about it. I'm sorry. That's all right.

Well, we could have another program on that at some point. Yeah, it was, you know, it's just that they were so destitute that it wasn't, it didn't come across as anything lewd.

You can understand that. Right, that was my point, actually, is that, you know, if it's a cultural thing where it's not being viewed as a sexual thing, but it may be a problem to those who are in the mission field, though, visiting the area.

Yeah, and I'm sure that it would be, you know, we would address it if it were an issue. Or dress it.

We would dress them, yeah. Well, this kind of hinges on that.

What about the dances and things that tribes do?

I've seen Christianized tribes doing special dances and praise to the

Lord, and we here in the United States were from Reformed backgrounds, most of us anyway.

There are differences that have crept into modern churches, but the traditional

Calvinist congregations would not be permitting any kind of dance in a worship service.

You typically only find that in Charismatic or Pentecostal congregations, and they will often cite

Old Testament passages with David and so on. Yeah, we don't have that either.

Right, so what would you do in the foreign mission field if that was... Well, you would have to teach them.

That's part of what you're teaching them. You know, we teach them the whole counsel of God, and they need to understand that there are things...

In fact, one of the series that I do, one of the things I do as General Secretary is

I put on Reformation Bible conferences, and I'm focusing on that more and more, it seems.

I look to do that in the Philippines later this year, and then back in Africa.

Is that you teach them, and I have a series I do on acceptable worship. They need to be taught what is acceptable worship.

They need to realize it's not okay for them to just make up whatever they want to do. Of course, a lot of our

American churches need to understand that too. You know, they think they can just make up whatever they want to do.

Now, would you think that the regulative principle, going back to that, is really... Because some want to include the

Old Testament in the regulative principle blueprint, but isn't it really the

New Testament that gives us the principles of worship? Because therefore, you could be including things like the burning of incense and dancing and so on in the...

Yeah, well, you have to explain that. You have to give them a good biblical theology then. I have another series that I teach,

Chris, on THE Christ in the Old Testament. Now, I taught that for the first time in Nepal last month, and I had pastors come up and tell me,

I never heard of Christ in the Old Testament. They need to know the

Old Testament so they don't repeat the errors. Of course, you teach it, you know, that Christ has fulfilled these things for us as far as the law and the sacrificial law, but I don't think we should hide that from them.

We need to teach them the proper way to interpret Scripture. Now, what are the major cults that Westminster Biblical Mission confronts on the mission field, where you are?

Oh, the Jehovah's Witnesses are there for sure, and as much as I am usually more kind to Seventh -day

Adventists in Africa, they're a real problem. You know, they're almost cultic, the way that they have such a heavy hand on the

African people. So they're more aggressive about condemning

Sunday worship and things like that. Everything has to be their brand of everything.

You've got to go to their school, this and that, and they're really strict.

And of course, if they really follow some of the tenets of it, they're very legalistic. You know, they want to incorporate the food laws and all that stuff.

Well, many of them go beyond the food laws because many of them are strict vegetarians.

They do, yeah. And I really want to make sure that you give what primarily you want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we run out of time, and then we'll return to some more listener questions if we have the opportunity.

But I just want to make sure that the time doesn't slip away from me, where you really give what you most want our audience to remember about this program today.

Well, to pray for us in the work that we are doing, that we would be faithful to Christ in all things, mindful of Paul's admonition that we teach the whole counsel of God, that we're faithful in word and deed, and the needs are great, the fields are white for harvest.

You know, we need your help. Please come alongside of us, consider that.

Just go to WBMINC, that just stands for Westminster Biblical Missions Incorporated.

WBMINC .org, find it on the website. You can contact me, look at...

I encourage people, too, to look at some of our publications. A Philosophy of Missions, we were talking about that.

And we have a one -page written statement that I think would be helpful to people as to what our

Philosophy of Missions is and how we accomplish that, and the separation from the bad ecumenism that is out there.

But please help us, help be a prayer warrior. You know, if you can give financially, we need your help.

And I'm happy to say that 95 cents on the dollar goes to the field, and that's practically unheard of.

And you do have a church directory on the RCUS website.

We do, on the RCUS website. You can find that. There are three forms of unity and different studies that we've done.

We are opposed to women in combat in the military, and we would stand behind any of our members for the ladies to be conscientious objectors.

We take a stand against abortion as murder of an unborn child.

You'd be surprised. A lot of denominations don't touch it. They just leave it up to individuals.

We do not have women in the office of elder. We don't have lady deacons, either.

I mean, I said we're to the right of Attila the Hun. Well, I think that you're just being biblical.

Well, that's what we strive to do. We're not a perfect church. You know, we're the church militant.

We're fighting against the world, the devil, and our own flesh. And of course, you're jokingly saying that you're right of Attila the

Hun, but you do not demean women by teaching biblical roles for men and women.

Oh, we love the ladies. And we would be stupid as men never to learn from their godly wisdom.

Not that they should be in places and roles that are prohibited in the scriptures, but women are great gifts to the church.

Women are valuable to teach other women, especially. And especially men that are married are foolish if they are dictators in their homes and never listen to their wives.

Because their wife, let's be honest, even though the man is the head of the home, the wife may be a much more wise person in that household than he should be.

Have you been talking to my wife? Well, you may have a very godly seasoned saint who is female, who married a man who came to faith later in life, and she may be even just innately smarter than him and have a lot more.

But obviously, she still needs to submit to him, but he would be a fool not to take heed to her counsel.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's a blessing from God that two are one and you're stronger, and Satan doesn't want that, that's for sure.

I'm happy to say that my wife is my best friend. 39 years of marriage,

God has blessed me. That's great. Is she standing right behind you now? Now she is asleep upstairs as a night shift nurse, actually.

Well, my late wife was a night shift nurse as well. The thing that really is important to bring up, because you are a reformed

Christian, have been a reformed man theologically for the majority of your life, and yet you are passionate about missions.

This seems to be, in the minds of many, a contradiction in terms.

This is oxymoronic, but this is not at all in contradiction to the doctrines of sovereign grace, is it?

No, it's the means that God has ordained, and we're responsible to take the gospel into the world.

We're to be a light set on a hill. He said that to us, the church. That's our responsibility.

How shall they hear unless there's a preacher, unless one is sent to go?

No, that is absolutely our responsibility. And even historically, some of the greatest missionaries and evangelists have been thoroughgoing

Calvinists. I mean, William Carey, the father of the modern missionary movement and so on.

I mean, you have on and on and on, men like George... Robert Moffat, David Livingston, the list does go on.

Yeah, George Whitefield, as far as his fervor in public evangelism. I mean, the pages of history and the pages of scripture are in harmony in that the fact that God is in control of all things does not hinder men from obeying him and spreading the gospel.

And in fact, I have heard from those involved in missions that the doctrines of grace is what gave them the zeal and the patience and the determination to remain where they were when they didn't see fruit immediately coming.

Whereas many Arminian mission boards yank people off the field if they're not producing numbers quickly.

Right, that's a fact. So obviously, the fact that God has chosen men and women from out of humanity before the foundations of the world to receive the gift of salvation, that does not at all hinder the

Christians... Well, God's sovereignty is what establishes missions.

I mean, he, as the sovereign God, says this is the way that people come to saving faith in Christ.

This is the way I call him my elect. Through the preaching of the gospel, through missionaries, through pastors, through evangelists, doing that work.

And we will be held accountable if we don't. Amen. And one name that comes to mind is

Jim Elliott, who gave his life. Presbyterian missionary in South America who was killed by the...

I believe it was the Alka Indians? Yeah, the Alka Indians. Yeah. And his wife, his widow, returned to evangelize them and spread the good news, even though they murdered her husband.

I mean, just amazing stuff here that people think it's oxymoronic, but it's not in any way, shape, or form.

In fact, Buzz Taylor, you as a Reformed believer, you have been...

I know people have also confronted you with the fact that, or should

I say the assumption that the doctrines of grace should be a hindrance to evangelistic zeal, but...

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard that many, many times. And of course, for years, of course, the first accusation

I ever hear from people when I talk about the doctrines of grace is that it's counter to evangelism.

And I've been a Calvinist for years, and I've never seen anybody actually...

I've never heard anybody say, we don't have to evangelize because if they're... The accusation is, this is what we think.

I've never heard that before. Unfortunately, I cannot say that anymore, because there was one individual, finally.

Yeah, well, there are hyper -Calvinists. But there are Minions who act like hyper -Calvinists.

He went on to work with Harold Camping. Well, Harold Camping, though, is as cultic and heretical as he was.

He did have a missionary zeal to spread his... I mean, he did have some elements of truth, but he also had some dangerous lies that he was aggressive to spread all over the world.

But there are Minions who behave like hyper -Calvinists, and just that they are lazy, they don't even...

Or they're ashamed of the gospel, they are more afraid of men than of God. And that's one of the primary things,

I think, is at the heart of what we have been discussing, Dennis. Don't we need to be more fearful of God than men?

In fact, we are to fear God and not fear men, in regard especially to proclaiming his truth publicly, no matter where the chips may fall, right?

And this includes the mission field. Absolutely. You know, I mean, I have people even say to me, you know, why would you go to Pakistan?

Why would you go to Nepal? You know, you could get killed. I said, I could get killed going to Walmart to buy a box of a tin.

What do I want to die doing? That's very true.

And we... No greater honor than to give one's life for Christ. I mean, not that I'm going to voluntarily put my head on the block, you know.

I'll try to resist the tyrant, but... We do have an anonymous listener in Maryland who asks, do you have any

RCUS congregations near Baltimore, Maryland? Near...

No, we don't. Closest one is in Gettysburg.

Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. That's not that... That's not very close. Well, for our Pennsylvania listeners, what information can you give them about the

Gettysburg congregation? Oh, it's a relatively new congregation there.

The pastor is very experienced, though, Reverend Jay Fluck. Great pastor.

Excellent preacher, too. He won't put you to sleep. Seriously, Jay is just a real dear brother, and I'd encourage anybody who's close enough to go there to please do.

I think they'll be warmly received. Well, I would definitely like to invite

Jay to my next Iron Sharpens Iron Pastor's Luncheon, which

I am planning, God willing, to take place sometime in the spring. I just had my first Pennsylvania Iron Sharpens Iron Pastor's Luncheon near Christmas time, and for the very first time here in Pennsylvania, I had over 50 men attend this gathering, which was really a pleasant shock to me.

I had done this for about 20 years in New York. My wife, my late wife, came up with the idea to treat pastors to lunch every

Christmas season in lieu of giving each other gifts, and we started doing that about 20 years ago, and it grew to such a large numerical group that we had to start getting corporate sponsorship for it, and I would have a speaker come in every year preaching a message specifically designed for men in ministry, and we get good, solid, doctrinally and theologically sound books donated from publishers all over the country to give to these men, and there's no agenda.

I'm not selling Amway products or anything like that, and the men are fed physically and spiritually and leave with an armful of books, and you missed the last one, right,

Buzz? Yes, yes. But you had a question you wanted to ask. Well, before we run out of time, we're talking to a person heavily involved in missions.

It just would seem sacrilegious to me to not have him say something about our Great Commission.

Amen. Well, yeah, it is a great blessing that Christ has given us that privilege to take part in the building of this church, as he, you know, commanded us to go there for and, you know, making disciples, baptizing them in the name of God the

Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, you know, teaching them whatsoever he has commanded.

I mean, to me, the methodology is very clear in Scripture what we ought to be doing, and that's what we focus on, teaching the

Word of God, but also, as I said, you know, giving the cup of water in Jesus' name, too.

Our Lord healed the sick, and he raised the dead. I mean, the books could not contain all the glorious and wonderful things that he did, and, you know, we need to follow in that train.

I just, you know, I'd like to, you know, again say to people, too, if you don't mind, that if they're interested in this work, you know,

I'm even available to come to churches and missionary groups and share in the work of missions.

I have video, PowerPoint, you know, even if there's a particular field, go on our website and look at wbminc .org,

a field you might have interest in, and I'd be glad to do that, and there's no financial obligation.

Okay, I would like to help with cost if you have me travel a long ways, but just for that, it's to do the work of the

Lord together, and we need others helping with us, joining with us as co -laborers in the mission.

And I really appreciate the emphasis that you put on training the people on the field, the natives.

Yeah, I have a little trouble using the word, I guess, but yeah, because I have believed in that for many years, that rather than just support somebody to go be a librarian for so many years, you go there, you plant churches, the churches reach more and more people, those churches and those people then plant new churches and reach new people, and you've got something that's going to be there long after you're gone.

We emphasize with all of our graduates from our schools, our seminary or our

Bible schools to do that. As I said, in South Korea, it's, oh my, well over 700 new churches.

Yes. In Pakistan, okay, now there'll be that kind of number, but this is a

Muslim nation. That's the answer to terrorism, is the changing of their heart.

Yes. A spiritual awakening that they would beat their swords to plow shares. And we have almost 50 churches now that have been started in Pakistan.

Wonderful, yes. Wow, praise God. And then, you know, we're doing the same, want to do the same in Nepal, Mexico, Central Eastern Europe, wherever we go, you know, we have a high view of the church, which is the body of Christ.

Yes. Now, Mexico sharing a border with the continent,

North American continent. Tell us about what the main confrontation of false gospels would entail there.

Roman Catholicism, oh my. They hold an iron fist.

Yeah, I could have guessed that. They've threatened our folks for coming to our churches.

They've told people they will cut off their businesses by telling all the good

Roman Catholic people in their parish not to go to their business, not to give them any, so they threaten to starve them, basically.

Wow. Yeah, it gets vicious. Now, what, are there, just like in America, are there old stripes of Catholicism there that run from the liberal social gospel all the way to the

Latin right experience? No, it's pretty much old world. It's old world

Catholicism is the way I would describe it. Yeah, and I'm sure very, very superstitious and idolatrous.

Oh, yeah, everywhere you go throughout Mexico, you'll find shrines out in the middle of nowhere and with them loaded with money.

Here these poor people are, but they're coming and giving because they're afraid if they don't, they're going to lose their inn with God.

Any dangers that the mission work there has experienced from the drug cartels and so on?

Yes, our main focus is right in the middle of it in Michoacan. Wow.

We had, you know, one of our men's daughters kidnapped and held for ransom thinking that he was a rich man because he was associated with some

Americans and all that. Thankfully, he was let loose unharmed.

Oh, praise God for that. But yeah, they face it every day. Pakistan, too.

We don't know what it's like to live under that. It's just horrible. Well, you're certainly doing quite a lot about changing that by starting so many churches there.

That's wonderful. I know how abruptly the end of this show comes up.

So before it's over, I just want to say thank you very much, Dennis. It's been a joy talking to you and hearing of the work that you're doing.

We will be praying for you definitely. And thank you very much. I'm glad to have been a part of it.

Yeah, do you record these, brother? Oh, yes. I will be getting you an MP3 of this.

That'd be great. We'd like to upload it and maybe even link your iron sharpens iron with our webpage.

Oh, that's great. Yeah. In fact, you should have it within an hour or so. It takes about,

I don't know, half hour or 45 minutes for me to upload the program. And I'll email it to you as soon as I can tonight.

And very quickly, the RCUS devotionals that I've been receiving for many years, is this something that the public can take advantage of and get on an email list?

Sure. Yeah. Just go to the RCUS website and follow the menus and resources.

And then you can sign up for it. I kind of started that on my own. And you shut it down.

So it's still going. And some of the greatest men of God throughout history, including some contemporary names of the

Reformed faith and including... Paul Tripp was a classmate of mine. Oh, really?

Yes. Yeah, I know Paul and know, even to a greater degree, his brother,

Ted. Yes, and I pastored by each other. And I know that you do include in the devotional, some great

Reformed Baptists like Charles Spurgeon. Absolutely. Well, let's give the audience your contact information one more time.

It's WBMINC, that's Westminster Bible Mission Incorporated, WBMINC .org

and the RCUS .org. That's it.

Well, thank you so much, Dennis Rowe, for being on the program. I look forward to having you back. Thank you, Buzz. God's riches blessing.

Thank you. And thank you, Buzz Taylor, for being my co -host today. And I want you all always to remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner. We are looking forward to your questions for our guests next week on Iron Sharpens Iron.

I hope you all have a very safe, blessed, refreshing, invigorating, and God -honoring weekend and Lord's Day.