February 26, 2016 Show with Dennis E. Roe on Confronting the False Gospels of Liberalism & Romanism on the Mission Field

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote.

We are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in

conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris Arnton.

Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnton wishing you all a happy Friday on this 26th day of February

2016 and This day has been a long time coming.

I've been wanting to interview my guest today for quite a while and

different providential occurrences hindered that until now but his name is

Dennis Rowe and For years I have been receiving his very inspiring and

encouraging Biblical devotionals that he sends via email.

That basically are the the writings of some of the greatest heroes of Christian history

both the past and the present and Dennis Rowe.

Was ordained in 1982 and received into the Reformed Church in the United States

also known as the RCUS.

He was the organizing pastor for Covenant Reformed Church in Carbondale, Pennsylvania from

1982 to 1995 and the organizing pastor for Covenant Reformed Church in Grass

Valley, California from 1995 to 2015 where he is

now the elected pastor emeritus and he has served as

a chaplain for the 25th Infantry Division Association from 1995 to 2000 and

he is now serving as a chaplain for the Calvary Association from

2000 and To the present should have said cavalry not Calvary.

I'm so used to saying the word Calvary Cal Calvary.

As well.

The three -quarter Cavalry Association.

We're gonna be talking about Westminster biblical missions today, and we're going to be talking about Confronting

the false Gospels of liberalism and Romanism on the mission field.

Our guest Dennis II row is a has been a board member of Westminster biblical mission

from 1983 to 1988 Recording secretary at Westminster biblical missions from

1984 to 1989 a foreign missions committee member at the

Reformed Church in the United States from 1985 to 1988 and from 2014

through next year and He has been on mission trips to Mexico,

Taiwan, South Korea, Pakistan, Hungary Holland, Romania, Russia,

Cyprus, Egypt northern Kenya for these Sudanese refugees and

Southwestern Kenya and today since 1990 He has

been and is still currently the general secretary for Westminster Biblical

missions.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens.

Iron Dennis II row.

Thank you very much Chris.

It's my privilege to be here today.

And let me announce our email address if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question

for Dennis regarding Confronting false Gospels on the mission field.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

That's CH RIS a RN ZN at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least.

Your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and.

Our guest is also just to let you know he's written for some publications such as the Reformed Herald

Flashes which is a 25th Infantry Division Association publication

McKenzie's Raiders, which is a three -quarter Cavalry Association Publication and

he writes a bi -monthly newsletter for Westminster biblical missions for the

Pakistan Lahore ministry, but.

Let me also introduce you Dennis to my co -host today the Reverend Buzz Taylor

and the Reverend Buzz Taylor has served as pastor in fundamentalist

Baptist charismatic Pentecostal and Church of God

Finley Ohio Congregations and is now a theologically reformed Christian.

He has served as the pastor of at least one Presbyterian Congregation and is currently a member

of a local PCA Congregation and it's my honor and privilege to have you back in studios my co

-host.

I almost said co -pastor.

My co -host.

Reverend Buzz Taylor.

Hello.

I'm glad my schedule has allowed me to be back once again, and and it's good to meet you, Dennis.

Yes.

Good to meet you, too.

Before we even go into a description of the Westminster biblical mission

I want to hear more about the Reformed Church in the United States also known as the RC us.

That is probably Less known than some of the the larger reformed denominations

like the PCA purpose Presbyterian Church in America the OPC Orthodox Presbyterian Church

and some others.

But tell us something about the RC us.

I know that I remember the RC us when it was called the Eureka classes.

Why.

Yes, it was the Eureka classes.

Give you a little history.

What is the

The Reformed Church United States.

We will meet in May and it will be the.

270th Senate.

Actually.

It's the oldest denomination, I believe begun in the United States.

Wow I didn't know that I'm in the church buildings on the in Pennsylvania housed Washington's

troops during the war for independence.

Is that the one time we were the

largest reformed denomination.

A quarter of a million people that's going back in the.

Early 1900s, but.

The movement of Theological liberalism got root in our

in our church sadly and The whole movement was bigger was better

and the Bible became lesser and lesser.

Significant to that whole movement the leaders then were very

influential men.

Actually,

wow, it was quite influence.

Just the church and its ecumenicity that had to take preference over everything.

So where if you were to go to the seminary that used to be

Connected with us in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

You kind of see that displayed when you go in their chapel today.

The history of it you you'll see a stained -glass window for John Calvin John Knox

Luther Mother Teresa

some popes and Whomever and that's where they are.

Theologically they actually the.

When they started the mergers to to, you know in ecumenism I always wants to merge get

bigger bigger supposedly better

reformed

church.

In fact, you can still find some congregations scattered around

Pennsylvania that but then they did they

weren't happy there.

What they did was they incorporated a lot of the brethren.

Actually, there's one church in the u .s. Had a nickname of the German reformed church.

And they kind of had a thing anything that was German was good.

Well.

Especially in the 30s, you know, well, that was a very terrible idea.

Well, eventually they merged again with brethren Congregational a whole bunch of different groups

and you have the United Church of Christ, right?

Very liberal far from oh, yeah.

I actually organized a public theological debate.

Featuring my friend.

Dr. James are white of Alpha Omega Ministries.

Who's a reformed Baptist and a cleric within the United Church of Christ.

Barry Lynn.

Barry Lynn who is was an ACLU attorney and is currently the president

of Americans United for Separation of Church and State and Dr. Lynn United

Church of Christ minister was defending homosexuality in the debate as a legit as a legitimate

Christian lifestyle.

Well when I was pastoring in Pennsylvania for a land out I I Met this

brother and he was a pastor in the UCC and was really

lamenting how bad it was.

Of course, my encouragement was to come out from among them.

But you know the battle for him he'd spent so many years and then his retirement was threatened, etc.

I'm happy to say that that brother did take a stand and separated.

But he told me that in one of their meetings of Senate If you even tried to

bring up an idea like pro -life or You know speak against homeless.

They would shout you down.

Yeah, you weren't even allowed to speak.

Yeah, I actually yes, and Just um, I

hate to keep dropping names.

But another debate that I arranged many years ago back in the 90s, I believe

I was a radio debate.

Between my friend. Dr. James white and he was debating a United

Methodist physician and a Seminary

professor for the United Methodist denomination and he was pro abortion and

we were debating on abortion and The man actually told

dr. White to go to hell and Hung up on him when dr. White asked him a

very simple question Do you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and God?

And he told him to go to hell and that was a personal that was a personal and private.

Belief that was none of his business.

I had a similar experience.

I was The church building we bought in Pennsylvania when I was pastoring there.

We had been owned by the evangelical Lutheran Church.

Which certainly isn't evangelical and I was talking to their as they call them priest.

And you know, he was just you know adamantly opposed to the Bible having any authority or any

value really a bit

apologetic for the authority of Scripture.

He got so angry.

He threw the Bible at me and said my faith isn't based on this blankety -blank book.

Wow, and it was just stunning.

Wow.

See the hatred in the animosity and really to cry

now.

Obviously as you know some of the different reformed groups

use different confessional standards.

Some use the Westminster Confession and Catechisms some use the three forms of unity.

Where is the RC us in that regard?

The RCS holds the three forms of unity as you know our

standards as far as doctrinal standards, of course subservient to Scripture.

And that would be the Belgic Confession the Heidelberg Catechism and the Synods of Dort, right?

You got it.

What happened with us was that when the murders were coming about that one of the classes?

The Eureka classes as you mentioned earlier.

Did not go with the merger the only one and.

That's how we got the name the Eureka class.

We didn't have a Senate then but we organized the Senate.

I was there for that and we have.

We're still not a large

church, you know the issue.

Well, I guess that there is something to be said of smaller being better sometimes then.

Because the bigger you are as an organization the likelihood that things like that are gonna eventually creep in especially

in.

Five -foot -four.

I certainly agree.

And.

What are some of the other unique things about the RC us that that may make you stand out as

a denomination?

Well, we still practice the catechizing of our children.

We the pastors work with the children.

Depending on the child 10 11 12 years old to begin the memorization

and then we do have the practice of Confirmation it

simply we're discipling our children

by God's grace.

Even that

they're

there ought to be

Regeneration at the same time.

We believe our children important day of all people need to be discipled and that's what we're doing.

So you see that's a distinctive.

Yeah, you would take a similar view to my friend.

Dr. Joel Beeky.

Although he although he is a Pato Baptist those in his fellowship of

Churches view the children as a mission field

to be born again.

That's right.

Amen.

Oh, how about it?

Amen, anything else?

I know that there are.

There is also some disagreement amongst some of the reformed denominations

regarding the use of.

Modern.

Translations of the Bible within reason and so on.

Did you have any official position on that or?

You know, it's the liberty of the congregation, but I you know, I would say

It's King James Bible, but by that I.

Yes.

Yeah, we're conservative in that regard.

You know cite, you know other Translations so

forth which we want our pastors to be competent enough to think another

distinctive is, you know.

We're careful about communion.

We're not closed communion

if we have someone we don't know them.

We ask if they desire for having the Lord's Supper that day that they let it be known to

one of the elders so that we can speak with them to see that they at least have You know an

understanding of the gospel who cried

Burena and they

might have moved with them,

but we're concerned that they you know are committed to the body of Christ.

Right, you know.

And.

Well, one of the main themes that we're speaking on today, obviously is that

you as a group the Westminster biblical mission are confronting the false Gospels of

liberalism and Romanism and among that That group

of Heretical issues to confront is the modern ecumenical movement.

Now obviously Christians should have a biblical approach to

ecumenism.

They should not be opposed to all ecumenism and.

Just wondering how far?

The RC us would go on that.

Do you have any kind of fellowship with like Reformed Baptists such as myself who adhere to

the 1689 London Baptist Confession or?

Have what's called.

You know, we have a specific relationship outlined in our Constitution

for the denomination of having an eternal

relationship

with everything.

You know, for example,

we have the same PC.

I did.

Reformed church.

United Reformed Churches.

Yes, also the Canadian and American Reformed Church has not been able

to get squared away with the PCA.

Okay now.

I understand from your own your own Biographical sketch.

You went to John Wesley College and I did.

I was the only living Calvinist they ever saw.

They were all dead.

So, so you were already a Calvinist when you went to John.

Yes, oh so you went to the Reformed Episcopal

Seminary before you went.

So I got a diploma then I went and finished my undergraduate work and came back and was given.

This is a shot in the dark here, but did you happen to know my dear friend who is now with the Lord Dr. Robert

J. Cameron, who was a.

Wow, what a small world.

Ladies and gentlemen, I did not know that before this interview.

Yeah, dr Cameron were and I were very very close friends as well.

And he was close to my late wife he was a precious brother in Christ a certain and.

He preached in our cart for our congregation here the year before he passed away.

Wow.

That is something.

Well, I I got I got to send you an mp3 link of a couple of my

interviews with him on the old iron.

He did he did a wonderful Program

on the things that He he was very distressed

about and and And found an urgent need to warn

members of the black church at large.

Those involved in mainstream african -american christianity had a very he had a very bold stance

against many of the serious heresies and and dangerous waters

that that many of these professing Christians and churches are

basically waiting and He was a very bold voice and he let

the chips fall where they may for the cause of truth.

Did not care of the slightest bit about being politically correct and Was more concerned over

Bob.

I knew yeah, he was much more concerned over honoring and obeying God and

Rescuing the souls of sinners than he was about hurting

sinners feelings.

And.

The church

where he

served there now Pete's well, so that the church is still functioning.

Oh, yeah, Mount Carmel.

Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Somerset, New Jersey.

Is it still an OPC congregation?

Well, you know, I've been three years.

I'm you know, I don't know that they've changed.

Because they were a reformed Episcopal congregation initially, right and they became PCA and then they

became OPC and this may this may get

a lot of our listeners scratching their heads, but one of the main issues that

That caused the dr. Cameron to leave the PCA is that he was very upset

that a very major congregation in the PCA Had

celebrated believe it or not.

Hold on to your hats folks.

They celebrated Martin Luther King jr. Day, and he is a black man found that

offensive that a church would do that because of dr. King's

doctoral dissertation denying the the pillars of the faith such as the deity of Christ

the virgin birth substitutionary atonement and things like that bodily resurrection and

he actually That was one of the straws that finally broke the camel's back for him.

But and the fact that the church was not at all disciplined, but that's that's a whole nother

issue for another day.

So.

You are now actively involved.

Oh, by the way, I just wanted to let our listeners know that the website for the RC us is

RC us org, that's the Reformed Church United States RC us org if anyone

wants to find out more about that denomination and Now we're going to be delving more

In into deeper Levels with the Westminster biblical mission and your

confrontation of false Gospels on the mission field.

Tell us Our listeners about the Westminster biblical mission.

Well, Westminster biblical missions was founded in 1973 by

two missionaries that were kind of disenfranchised

Left on the field by a certain denomination, which I won't mention.

But not mine, so that's good.

But these brothers realized I mean they were committed to know

knew that they needed Government and they weren't to be on their own.

So they asked some other.

Brothers.

Pastors and elders and

president and

they did

so they founded Westminster.

Biblical missions are

doctrinal as well.

That's about related to how the mission for

board that we're accountable to and so forth so that there is that

You know good accountability that we're not I as general

secretary

when it's twice a year.

You're

well watch over and help each of the mission fields that we have.

I came on board in 1982.

So the mission wasn't that old and to be one of the old

guys involved Reverend Earl Peake

went to be with the

Lord this past

91.

Just an amazing man of God.

He really helped pioneer one of our field

e25 time.

Mr.

Biblical mission.

Christianity of course doctrinally as we understand it from The

Westminster standards is a good expression of the Bible's teak

about us in

today's world is that We follow What's known by some as a

nebulous method of doing missions and that is that?

We don't attempt to field American missionaries on the field full

-time.

What we do is attempt to find faithful Man faithful leaders in

being called to serve in and Work with building them up seeing that they're faithful

men.

So that they can do the work of the ministry, and that's a perfect inherently that involves theological

education.

That would be a perfect place for us to pick up after the break because we have to go to station break right now.

I'd like to learn more about that.

Obviously, it's a major factor that Discussing if anybody would like to join us on the air as well with a

question of your own.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Dennis E row of Westminster biblical mission in our discussion of

confronting the false Gospels of liberalism and Romanism on The mission field.

Don't go away.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Lawrence, and if you just tuned us in our guest today is Dennis E Who is the general secretary

for Westminster biblical mission and studio.

With me as my co -host today is the reverend buzz?

Taylor we are discussing confronting false gospels on the mission field with

primary focus on liberalism and Romanism.

And if you have a question of your own Email us a question at Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Right before the break you were talking about the nevious method of

missions that Westminster biblical mission is involved in and I'm assuming the nevious method

is named after the 19th century missionary to China Presbyterian missionary to

China John Nevious.

You got it.

And if you could go go and know a little bit more depth about that.

Well.

With the nationals and build up the national church.

Number of reasons for that.

One is that when you feel the missionary from another? country another

culture He has to spend

Communicate with because if you have a national

I mean, you know born there and Understands it

and doesn't have to go through all that as well as the language.

I mean, I've known missionaries.

Much

more Missionaries that we

feel.

For example now for one missionary and you want to say even missionary family

It's minimally that they have to raise

our budget for the state for example

Pakistan our largest field in the whole area.

We we have five 2

,500 students a Faculty of over 50 plus a lot of

other staff, you know maintenance and all of that.

We have two medical clinics 35 literacy centers where we teach

people to read using the Bible as the primer.

We do all that for $15 ,000 a month.

Incredible.

If we were.

I.

Taken the challenge from the brothers.

They wanted me to work, you know more full -time in the work.

You know, it's just come about.

Providentially as I had some health issues last year that I had to make a choice of whether I was going to

continue Mastery my man.

I'm also on the faculty of a seminary and since we are talking about

ecumenism, and we did mention.

A biblical ecumenism that I think would be something that every obedient Christian

should be involved in to some degree.

The the Westminster biblical mission is not exclusively an RC u .s.

Parachurch organization, correct?

No, in fact, yes, you have to start supporting Westminster biblical missions

as a denomination just two years ago.

Okay, and I've been in the domination over 30 years.

Yeah, they're slow, but they get there.

One thing I forgot to ask you about the RC us and I'm pretty sure I remembered correctly before I even asked you

this.

But there is also division amongst different reform denominations about.

Exclusive psalm ity versus him singing.

I believe you're on the him singing side, correct?

Yes, we use him the instruments and You know, I mean we're

you would say it's traditional if you want to use a Description of it, but you know, we have a directory of

worship and we want it to be biblical.

If you read our directory of worship, which is pretty much like the Orthodox Presbyterian Churches

Focal point of of the Word of God and preaching the Word of God In the

sacraments to be accompanied with the preaching the Word of God never separating them

Pastor totalism and the sacrament you can't replace the Word of

God.

There must be that control to

all of our yes.

In fact, I remember one of the RC us pastors Told me the

best argument I heard against exclusive psalm ity and this is no offense to my friends who are

Practicing exclusive psalm ity, but he said that the fact that you could not sing

Praises to Christ by the name Jesus Christ in song.

If you were involved in exclusive psalm ity of course, they the exclusive psalm ity

advocates are singing praise to Christ because he existed

obviously as a part of the Godhead from all eternity, but but he

by name is the specific reason that it would be a a Check on the negative

side with that.

You cannot sing praises to Jesus Christ by name, but.

You have hymns in the New Testament.

The passages of Scripture that just fly out that it was an early hymn.

You know.

And that It's phrased that way.

So what would be the different denominational groups that are cooperating with

Westminster biblical mission?

Well, I'm the Reformed Presbyterian Church in North America, we've

You know taken some of their material even and had it have had it translated into

the Urdu language of Pakistan their elders handbook an excellent handbook.

You know and a lot of the churches in Pakistan are Exclusive psalm ity because

that's the only hymn book.

They had it.

It's not a position with our

denomination.

Facing ecumenism on the field.

You know, I was involved in You know, let's mr.

Biblical missions has fields and in Pakistan Mexico Central Eastern Europe and

We were in South Korea.

I just recently returned from Nepal where we may be opening a new field

first went to Hungary in 1990.

The Reformation came to Hungary.

And there is a what's known as the Hungarian Reformed Church but we

soon discovered that it was quite ecumenical and Not in a good and

healthy way, for example.

One of their seminaries in Debrecen Hungary on the faculty.

We found that Reformed ministers, but

there also were Roman Catholic priests and even worse.

Unitarian.

Wow, I.

Mean, you know good.

And so it was just deplorable to find that that's where the Reformed Church

gone to.

And.

Formed a name only fine believers there and we were able to work with them, you know, that's

Be an ecumenical with them but based upon Scripture.

Yeah, just like there are Rhino Republicans.

There are Rhino Christians reformed in name only.

Yes, absolutely.

And.

So.

What one of the things that people Immediately may have the back the hairs in the back of their head

their neck stand on in.

Then there's there what they're hearing maybe on the surface.

Sounding like hate bigotry prejudice, etc.

That now the reason that we as Bible -believing Christians would not

want to be involved in religious activity.

With those who are of the Roman Catholic Faith it really is

the heart of it is the the difference on the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the heart of.

Why.

Christians are alive and and spreading the the good news about Christ

is the gospel itself.

Compromise the message.

You know and often you have that especially, you know, you look how everybody lauds

mother Teresa.

Well, she you know, she did some good things in a humanitarian sense.

But you know, she was a Roman Catholic.

Where's the gospel?

You know, there's no works righteousness.

That that's damnable that you know, you may have helped their body, but you've lost their

soul.

Yeah.

You know, we believe and we stress this as a mission.

We don't go to the other extreme or we ignore their bodies.

As I said in Pakistan we have two medical clinics.

I went to Nepal and we distributed You know hundreds of blankets because of the great earthquake

there and so many people didn't even have coverings for the night.

Now our hearts go out to him that way, but it's in word and deed.

They go together and to separate them is a travesty.

You're denying the gospel.

You must give the cup of water.

Understand that to be giving the gospel as well.

Now to make it clear to some of our listeners who are still confused over.

Every time I have a discussion about humanism with a good friend of mine who is a

Roman Catholic a staunch defender of Catholicism.

But he's also more of a moderate in the fact that he is an ecumenist and.

He.

Always says With it with an angry reply.

What do you mean?

We believe in different Gospels?

We have the same for Matthew Mark Luke and John.

He doesn't seem to understand what we're talking about and.

And the fact of the matter is that the Council of Trent in the 16th century

condemned as Being anathema accursed those

who believe That salvation is by grace all grace alone through faith alone Christ

alone.

And they have not repudiated that stand.

That's what I tell, you know Roman Catholics all the time.

Sometimes surprised by it, you know, and I said well you need to understand your own.

You know position as a church so to say.

Yeah, because in Pennsylvania where the community is 95 % Roman Catholic and.

So many of them just ignorant of the gospel.

Yeah, it's bad.

And of course it what would even blurs the distinctions is That you have since

Vatican to the language Just being totally being

rewritten for public relations purposes where you have Protestants being called

separated brothers and you have even in the modern

catechisms Jews and Muslims.

And men and women of other religions outside of Christianity may enter into heaven and they say

that the Muslims even Adore the same one true God as they do.

And and this this adds to the confusion because the Catholic Church is really

They mock Protestantism for being guilty of adopting a

blueprint for anarchy.

Because we have allegedly and this is a false number, but we have a legend allegedly over 30 ,000

denominations and.

Well, I'd rather have that liberty than have the totalitarianism of Rome right.

And and the the irony though is.

In spite of the fact that there is a totalitarianism There is there were probably more divisions within Catholicism than

there are with an evangelical Christianity.

Because you have all different kinds of Roman Catholics at which which obviously the

the clearest example Of somebody who has departed from Catholic history is the Pope the

current Pope Pope Francis.

You're right.

Take down the walls.

He's working.

He's the biggest Ecumenist they've ever had and I have they've

always been syncretistic.

They you know, they'll do whatever it takes to get somebody in the door.

When I put it right will to be of depending upon the error and the culture and so on.

It used to be the sword and now it's blending in with the surroundings.

And so.

We we recognize my guest and I and my co -host that there are wonderful

God -fearing Catholic people.

In fact, there are Catholic people whose company I prefer over some of my own Christian brothers,

but That does not mean that we are to cooperate with

them religiously as if we have the same gospel and.

Because we do not and now obviously there are Catholic individuals who have the true gospel, but they are

believing in the true gospel in spite of What religion they claim to be affiliated

with?

Right, right, they're Catholic in name only or Roman Catholic in name only and.

So you do you see in fact buzz you were asking about this before the show.

But in fact buzz you were asking if you want to repeat the question yourself.

But you were saying is is approaching false Gospels different on the mission field.

Yes.

Well, I was asking Chris, of course, you know, we talking to today and He mentioned the

subject and I'm I was just wondering if there was a difference In approaching

false religions on the mission field from approaching them right here in America and.

One of the thoughts that occurred to me was that there may be and I'm since I'm not a missionary I don't know this

but I'm assuming that there may be more of a tendency for

Missionaries who are alone in a foreign culture to be

more willing to bend and cooperate with those who Within Rome or

within some liberal Protestant groups just because of the fact that they want to cooperate on

perhaps some benevolent Efforts of feeding people and clothing them and you know,

it may lead to other kinds of cooperation.

But but if you could comment on that.

Yeah, we we don't do that.

I'm not saying that you do it.

I'm sympathetic to what you know.

The fact is I mean in one sense when I'm in Pakistan over the years since I started going

there in the 80s the hostility is just growing exponentially and

You know and one said to say I'm happy to see a good old Roman Catholic.

You know, at least you can talk to them, right?

Even in the immigration issue here in this country.

I would much rather have a you know a Illegal Mexican,

you know, you might say an immigrant.

They have a respect for Christ.

You can talk to them.

Islam is a closed system.

I mean, they're not allowed to even Really discuss an alternative view.

That's blasphemy in and of itself.

Back.

I mean it's against the law your lives are proselytized and in

Pakistan.

So when you're on the mission field according to your your own Westminster biblical

mission website You are confronting the false

Gospels of liberalism and Romanism, how do you Befriend and yet confront

those involved in these false Gospels.

Well, because you you we what we do is.

We have a nation Bible conferences where we teach and we

expose these things.

We don't just lay them on the side and say they're not important.

You know, I just

and I had to address their

Pentecostalism there worse than

tell us something about the details of that.

Well, just the.

Really?

Right.

Yeah, that's the practical effect right is the Bible is very secondary because of new

revelation.

They're they're claiming.

Oh, yeah, and there's a lot of word of faith movement there too, isn't there?

I'm the foreign fields.

Yeah, and you get gold in your teeth.

You just follow Jesus and what it's all about.

Yeah, I even have.

I have friends here in the States who are.

From.

Pentecostal backgrounds and from more conservative backgrounds, in fact.

Even a few of them have become Calvinists who are very adamantly opposed to that kind of thing as

well.

They would even oh, yeah, I mean I have I know godly people.

You know that.

Put some reformed folks to shame, you know who are in the church

of God.

They're godly people and they love the Lord Jesus Christ and his infallible word.

And they would die for Christ and standing on his word.

So you do have to sort it out.

You can't put that label on everyone.

You know, it is a real problem that kind of Pentecostalism it

almost preys upon the ignorant.

Giving them on just as the Muslims do.

I mean, you know 75 of people in Pakistan are illiterate and I almost think they like to keep

them that way.

Whatever the moolah says over the loudspeaker.

That's what they have a bad crop.

It's America's.

These people don't know any better.

We have five Calvin's academies as they're called.

And.

You know 2 ,500 students where we're working.

We're in the slums.

I mean you want to talk about slums visit Pakistan and these children would have

no opportunity

long -term.

Generationally training these these young people up discipling them Evangelizing the young

people.

Our director there every morning at 5 a .m.

As a loudspeaker that goes out through this particular area I won't mention it for

security reasons, but the children he says now children

350 let's say and.

The children are in their homes.

They're trained that they do that every morning and their parents are often illiterate and here are their

children.

Who've been taught to read in there?

They're so proud of that in a good way.

They're reading the Word of God.

And it's just awesome to see that and you know be a part of that.

And changing lives we also have.

You know sewing classes for the girls because as Christians they don't get open opportunity to

the job.

It will help them with their income.

They'll be dependent upon it.

So we give them a trade that way and the boys we've had carpentry class.

Computers

all of that in the context.

They should go in in.

And what can you tell us about the World Council of

Churches?

I know I know that.

Westminster biblical mission will not cooperate on the mission field with Protestant churches that are

attached to it.

No, we won't.

It's sad.

I mean you see their effect.

I.

In Pakistan, I went to a hospital.

It's supposed to be a Christian hospital.

No, this is an example of liberalism in the church the you know, Presbyterian

Church USA that Started this hospital and

yet you cannot find a Christian track.

Anywhere in that hospital.

Well, you can find Muslim tracks.

Wow.

Yeah, it's just heart -rending.

What was the matter.

What was the purpose of the forming of the World Council of Churches.

Well in 1948 Is when they formed I know the year of my

birth so I got it stuck in my mind, you know.

The purpose.

Well, supposedly it was to better help and facilitate Christian churches

throughout the world, but what they have, you know become is a very political

Organization, and of course, they're socialists to the core and they're involved in

politics.

In.

92 I had an audience with one of the bishops and in Hungary and I pleaded with

him Not to take any money from the World Council.

That I said when you do that they're going to be strange and you know,

I won't do that but Sadly he did and sure enough.

But they ended up Excommunicating all of our students that were in our in our

Bible school in Hungary.

They they were excommunicating your students.

Yes, and the reason being because they were a part of our group and they weren't a

part of their.

You know, they had to be a part of their official group.

So so it's it's it's really the the phrase.

The intolerance of tolerance comes to mind which is actually a

title of a DA Carson book, but the the theme that's like the title the Intolerance

of tolerance.

It's it's such a hypocrisy when the.

Liberal.

Organizations and Ecumenical religious groups and so on put put on a

facade of being more loving than evangelicals and Bible believers and conservative

Christians are.

But and yet in reality, they very often will rear their ugly head of

hatred when it comes to the way that they really behave.

When.

We talk about hatred and theft and murder.

Wow, well, let's talk about that when we return from the break.

We have to go to another commercial break.

Okay, and we do have a couple of listeners who have emailed questions as well.

If you'd like to join them our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

Don't go away, we'll be right back with Dennis E. Rowe of Westminster Biblical Mission on

confronting false Gospels on the mission field.

We'll be right back.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen of iron sharpens iron.

Today we have as our guest Dennis e row of Westminster biblical mission.

We're discussing Confronting false Gospels on the mission field.

In the studio with me is my co -host the Reverend buzz Taylor.

And I just want to make a quick announcement This coming Monday the 29th of February.

We do have a leap year this year.

The 29th of February from 4 to 6 p .m. We have an interesting program on

Christians and gun ownership.

That's a very controversial issue, especially Every election season when you have

people being polarized over Gun ownership and gun control laws and so on.

Our first guest on Monday will be John R. Lott the author of more guns less

crime and.

Following.

John Lott will be dr. Ron Gleason who is a highly respected

reformed Scholar and pastor and he is going to be affirming the

Christians right to gun ownership and.

That will be this Monday the 29th of February.

Iron sharpens iron.

And once again, let me repeat our email addresses Chris Arnzen at gmail .com if anybody has a question for our guest today, Dennis

e row.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And before the break you were beginning to mention the fact

that Liberalism has reared its ugly head in some really horrific ways that

include theft and murder if you could continue.

Well regarding that I mean I'll give you an example about the.

What happened in Russia in?

It was 2008 that kind of went under the radar.

You didn't hear very much about it at all was that Putin

had the Doma.

That's like their Congress passed a law that

NGO of non -governmental organizations had to be

licensed and effectively what happened in was that

shut down all the Bible schools seminaries, etc and.

And.

Properties an Orthodox Church, you know

took part in that really.

I mean, that's I don't know any better way to describe it, but

properties, you know to them and

There's one evangelical seminary that they left open kind

of a seminary if you will.

I mean, it's a good school.

Their Bible faculty are Arminian, but they have reformed brothers on there.

I met with them a year and a half ago and you know, they asked

Me to come and by teaching there that

evangelical seminary in Moscow I

reformed pastors

stealing and those who didn't comply.

I mean, you know, you're talking about prison happened in Hungary.

Disappeared and yet the state with all

of that was seen again arise that is murder.

Maybe somebody thinks I'm overreaching.

I don't pardon

that.

There were some good pastors loud

sitting with one brother in the Hungarian Reformed Church they have kind of a different church

government than we're used to where they have a head elder and then they have bishops and

the head elder of this one district that is

Evangelical where their seminary is.

I sat with him in this restaurant and he told me that in this very restaurant I'd be here and

The waiter was a Christian Gary

and secret police were there.

He could meet and have a times they didn't and they were arrested and even turned

in some Christians.

I.

Mean, it's just.

For us, it's incomprehensible because we've never faced that

we do have a listener.

CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island.

Who says you're speaking about?

Separatism from those who disagree with you on varying levels of

Importance, but you make it sometimes sound a lot easier than it really is.

Due to the fact that there are many of us who live in areas where There

are no Biblically faithful churches to attend.

I happen to be in an area where there's many but I know of Those who are not

and I have in my past Lived in places where it was not easy to find a

faithful church.

Do you lower your standards in such cases or do you not go to church at all?

Well, you don't you know lower your standards it doesn't mean you should be in a church that's Bible -believing,

you know, I mean I'll give you example what I would do personally.

I mean I my wife and I Were on a vacation.

She had lived in the Virgin Islands and able to go there once

for a vacation.

I wanted to take her back to see it and as we went into town I was looking for a church before we got there even where we're going to

worship on that Sunday and I saw an advertisement in the papers said a reformed

church that was Christ centered and reformed in doctrine and

Presbyterian government.

I go wow, this is great.

So on that Sunday we went there and it happened providentially was Mother's Day and

You know, it was evident right away that the women were doing everything singing dancing.

Preaching whatever needed to be done and my wife and I just got up and left.

But as we noticed as we went into the city of Charlotte Amalia that Sitting up on the hill was this

Calvary and it was a Baptist Church.

Predominantly black, you know, I have to sell at the door.

I simply asked him I said, are you a Bible -believing church?

He said we sure are.

And I said, you know, we may we attend sure.

Come on in and it was great preaching expository preaching.

It was more than I thought it would be, you know, so I left, you know reformed church.

That was Not good, you know, I was worshiped in a Baptist Church

fine.

But ideally I mean, you know, we are committed.

Our mission is present hearing and reformed.

Ideally.

We would want you know, we pledge that you're in reform.

So, you know, we we work with other Bible -believing

Baptist

Church.

Because that brother, you know holds to the doctrines of grace.

We're more in fellowship mean we'll ever have an organic you.

Yeah, I mean.

As I was even mentioned on previous programs I have I am a reformed Baptist.

I am a thoroughgoing at reformed Baptist a very strong emphasis on

both the Baptist and reform part of that.

And yet my co -host here is a Presbyterian very strong in his convictions of pedo -baptism.

And yet we view.

I'm working on him.

I just want you to know.

And the powers of darkness shall not overcome me because I am.

But I.

But we view each other as brethren we have we have visited and fellowship with

each other as congregations, but.

There are limits when you have if you really care about theology and doctrine.

There are always going to be certain limits.

For instance.

He would obviously not want his pastor to prohibit parents from baptizing their

babies and I would not want a pastor who did baptize babies and so on so

so they're obviously the churches can have.

Fellowship and cooperation, but there are limits you're not necessarily going to have.

You just can't be organically joined in this world.

You know, right?

No, okay, you can still cooperate, you know, you could do deeds of mercy together and.

You know other things too.

Yeah, you know, I I really do sympathize with our listener here though because Members of my family, you

know, I think of places where they live and I have a hard time Counseling them what

church to go to because there are no reformed voices in their area.

I'm reminded though of what the the late Greg Bonson said once in a recording I had of

his where he said You you want to go to the best representation of the Church of Jesus Christ as

you can find in your area?

And if it gets really bad to where you just can't take that and he says it's your duty to start one.

I mean if that is like one of the primary

right things in your life, I would assume that Sacrificing all else and

moving would it would have to be a serious option and.

Of course if you have enough brethren locally, like I know a brother who moved to an area in Florida where there

was no reformed Baptist Church and he Found enough

like -minded brethren where they called a Pastor from somewhere else and they planted a church.

Yeah, so.

But we do also have a listener Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania

who says.

This is interesting because this question also came up during my interview with Todd Friel

recently.

The the listener says in Luke 9 we have the disciples

saying to Jesus that There were people

casting out demons in His name, but they were not a part of.

Christ's.

Disciples and Jesus Said do not hinder him for he who is not against you is

for you.

Why don't you have the same?

Approach with your biblical mission with Westminster.

Okay.

We would not seek to hinder someone but how are you meaning

hinder?

I mean, you know, we you say, you know, there's a liberty that people have even to have their error.

You know, we don't want a state church.

We're not promoting that our forefathers understood that very well and

Formation of this the same time, you know, we speak the truth.

We speak it in love.

You know, we want to promote the truth and we would be tolerant of them in as much

as you know.

We just say well we have to disagree even Paul disagreed with Peter.

You can't be silent on the truth.

But the way you present it, I mean, it's because you really care for the person not just wanting to beat them up

Theologically or something?

Yeah, people have a very.

Wrong.

Understanding of what love is.

They have a very greeting card theology when it comes to love and.

They.

Think that when you are trying to correct someone in serious error that that is somehow

Cruel or hateful or bigoted but but but everybody does that because in fact The

liberals who say how horrible and ugly and nasty and hateful and bigoted you are for doing

that.

They're doing that very thing in saying that to the conservatives.

They're making judgment calls about the those who are involved in biblical separation.

Am I right?

All the time.

And so I love it is truly one of the most loving things that you could do is correct somebody that you

believe is in.

Theological indoctrinal error.

Am I right?

Well, yes, because you do a straight you have a child.

Don't run out into traffic you say well, I don't want to you know, upset the child.

You know and holler at him, you know, you do whatever they stop him.

And so it is when it comes to errors That are damnable, especially I'm not saying that every

disagreement has to do with damnable error.

You know couldn't go to that extreme but at the same time, you know, we have a body of

truth That's worth standing for, you know, our logo as a mission, you know, our

statement is standing in the faith defending the faith and spreading the faith and.

We do have another listener Harrison and mechanics Berg who says am I to

understand that the Westminster? biblical mission Primarily is going to countries where there's already a

Christian presence Where you can train up men who are already born again or indigenous

to the area where you are serving.

Not necessarily.

No.

Now we go where there's not a church.

Disciple people.

They come to faith.

Doesn't mean that we already

and we have Christopher from Suffolk County, Long

Island, New York asking.

I may have missed this but what countries are you doing the work of missionary?

Evangelism on the globe.

I Didn't I just cite them where the person must have tuned in late, I guess.

Okay.

Well, what's this about Korea.

And pack of missionaries that were so to say

disenfranchised and

again so to say they still have you know, no

one you work of evangelism Korea

and came to Christ and we

began meeting in his house and.

You know the short of it is we have a seminary.

That's.

Graduated I.

Don't know.

A few thousand graduates now.

Planted over 600 churches.

Kind of unique that there's been a real

in Pakistan.

We did know of a believer who were saying come over and help us sort of like the

Macedonian.

Yeah.

You know and that there wasn't a reformed church.

So we're helping with that same in Mexico.

We're involved in organizing a Presbytery there in.

We have a Christian in Cumberland County Pennsylvania who wants to know how difficult is

it when you are training up disciples on foreign lands to separate those

cultural and tribal customs that are innocuous and not

necessarily in any way a Contradiction to biblical mandates

and yet are very much a part of the culture and would seem odd not to include them

in the worship of the local congregation if.

It's not something that's Condor to scripture.

You know, there are things that are cultural that you know, you don't have to change.

Everything doesn't have to have a Western flavor.

Their music varies.

Then, you know, you

have.

Cultural thing is and I'm sure the influence is because of Islam.

Is that as the men and women don't sit together.

Okay, you have women on one side men on the other and you have the children

separated to.

Yeah, I was.

Actually I visited a few years ago a congregation in New

York that was.

Everyone in the congregation was from Indian descent Descent either they were that themselves from India

or they were.

You know first second generation American citizens and.

All the women sat on one side and all the men sat on the other side.

Yeah, you just have to you have to weigh it out.

Okay.

You know, there's a matter of things that are just liberty that It is simply cultural and

it's not Forbidden scripturally and

an argument about a regulative principle of worship.

Right and that but we do believe in a regulative principle.

See that there's a lot of Liberty there.

God doesn't tell us how worship sir.

Yeah, and for our listeners who are unfamiliar with the regulative principle.

It's basically that the the scriptures have to be the blueprint for all that is.

Being done in a worship service, correct?

Yes, there has to be a clear Example or mandate in the scriptures.

You know, that's why most people who adopt the regulative principle would not

include Dancing and things like that in the worship service.

Am I right?

Exactly.

They also take it to some very very well, there are differences of opinion.

For listeners who are not familiar with the term regular, right?

Some some of them have a strict acapella worship because they don't see and some would say you can't celebrate Christmas or anything like that also.

Because we're not told to in Scripture, you know, so just to define the words to some.

Right.

I guess you would say that some would prohibit the work the celebration of Christmas at a worship service, right?

Yeah.

I think you have two people who have.

You know, they just have a wrong understanding of what the regulative

principle is.

I mean looking at it from the outside.

You know, there's a lot of liberty in our church, you know.

And I generally think we're to the right of the pill of the hun, you know.

That you know the churches You know might say celebrate Christmas.

I mean, it's you know, they celebrate the birth of Christ.

And there are hymns sung appropriate for that particular season and there's nothing

prohibitive to that.

Yeah, I think well in our thinking yes, but but there I I had a

group working on me a few years ago to trying to get me to Stop celebrating Christmas all together

because of the oh, yeah I was against the regular running into that and and you know.

They were also telling me that you know, you can sing the Psalms about Praising God with the sound of the trumpet.

Just don't try to do it because that's a musical instrument, you know.

So, you know a key thing Theologically in the New Testament is

I challenge them is the concept or the teaching of the new song

speaks of.

You know the new song that he gives to us.

In revelation the revelation of Jesus Christ.

That new song is the thing of the Lamb.

I I think they're really you know.

Missing that, you know when they try to advocate.

Exclusive psalmic, you know.

The only reason I even brought it up wasn't to get off track.

It's because of the fact that you know, we mentioned the word regulative principle of worship.

Yeah, and you don't know if people start, you know going online and looking into that they're gonna find all kinds of stuff.

Yeah.

Be careful as to what really is a regulative principle.

Yes, because there are those who they can make it something that it's not

and we have to go to our final break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least.

Your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside of the United States.

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

We'll be right back with Dennis E. Rowe of Westminster Biblical Mission right after these messages.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris orange and if you just tuned us in our guest for the last 90 minutes and for the next half hour

is Dennis Rowe.

Dennis e Rowe of Westminster biblical mission where he serves as general secretary.

We are discussing Confronting false gospels on the mission field.

My co -host and studio with me is the reverend buzz Taylor.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

We have BB from Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who wants to know.

One of the difficulties I could imagine there being in the mission field is applying the mandate the

biblical mandate for modest dress among women.

Where you have all different types of dress codes acceptable in foreign countries, especially in the

hot climates.

What do you do in such cases?

You know, they're very conservative cultures.

Nepal Pakistan India, Mexico.

It's really not a problem.

Well, suppose you suppose the Westminster biblical mission never ventures into Africa or something.

Oh, yes.

Yeah, I mean Isn't a problem.

The problem is that they have culturally

Accepted, you know.

Almost that it's okay for men to.

You know, you know.

Frequent one Messiah fellow told the pastor that

No, God makes allowance for us Messiah men to go to a prostitute So that

we can be better husband.

Yeah, well, I mean I've even seen obviously on Documentaries and so on that

there are tribes in Various parts of the world where you have women walking around bare -breasted and they don't

even view it as a sexual thing.

Yeah, I mean, what do you do with those extreme?

Circumstances when especially when you're in a jungle climate and so on.

What do you do with those kinds of things as a Christian?

That's true, I forgot yeah up in the northern Kenya where I was.

Here before last, you know did go brawlers, but

you know, I never even.

That's all right, well we could have another program on that it's.

They were so destitute that it wasn't it didn't come across as anything.

Lewd.

Understand that right?

That's what that was.

My point actually is that you know if it's a part if it's a cultural thing where it's not being viewed as a

Sexual thing.

But it may be a problem to those who are in the mission field though visiting the air.

Yeah, and I'm sure that it would be.

You know, we would address it if it were an issue or address it.

And.

Well this kind of hinges on that.

What about?

The the dances and things that tribes do I've seen Christianized tribes

Doing special dances and praise to the Lord that and we here in the United States were from

reform backgrounds.

Most of us anyway, there are differences that have crept into

modern churches, but the the traditional Calvinist congregations

would not be permitting any kind of dance in a worship service.

You typically only find that in charismatic or Pentecostal Congregations and they will often cite

Old Testament passages with David and so on.

But we don't we don't have that either right?

What would you do in the foreign mission field if that was.

That's part of what you're teaching them, you know, we teach them the whole counsel of God and they need to understand that.

They're in fact one of the series that I do.

One of the things I do is your own sectors.

I put on Reformation Bible conferences and I'm focusing on that more and more.

It seem to do that in the Philippines later this year and then

back in.

Africa.

Is that you teach them.

And I have a series I do on acceptable worship.

They need to be taught.

What is acceptable worship?

They need to realize it's not okay for them to just make up worth.

A lot of our American churches need to understand that too.

You know as they think they can just make up whatever they want to do.

No, now, would you think that the regulative principle going back to that is really?

Because some want to include the Old Testament in.

The.

Regulative principle blueprint, but isn't it really the New Testament that gives us the principles of worship.

Because therefore you could be including things.

Like the burning of incense and dancing and so on.

In the way you have to explain that you have to give them a good difficult theology.

Then I have a another series that I teach Chris on The

Christ in the Old Testament.

Now I taught that for the first time in Nepal last month and I had

Pastors come and tell me I never heard of Christ in the Old Testament.

They need to know the Old Testament so they don't repeat the errors, of course you cheated teach it, you know that

Christ has Fulfilled these things for us as far as the law and a

sacrificial law.

But I don't think we should hide that from them.

We need to teach them the proper way to interpret Scripture.

Now, what are the major cults that?

Westminster biblical mission confronts on the mission field where you are.

Jehovah's Witnesses are there for sure

much as I you know, I am.

And usually more kind to Seventh -day Adventists

in Africa, they're a real problem.

You know, they're almost cultic the way that they have such a heavy hand on the African

people.

So they're more aggressive about oh, yeah condemning Sunday worship and things like that.

Everything has to be their brand of everything.

You got to go to their school.

This and that and of course if they

really follow some of the tenets of it.

They're very legalistic.

You know, they want to incorporate the food laws and all that.

So well, they can go.

Many of them go beyond the food laws because many of them are strict vegetarians.

They do.

And.

I really want to make sure that you Give what primarily you

want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we run out of time.

And then we'll return to some more listener questions if we have

the opportunity, but I just want to make sure that the time doesn't slip away from me where you Really give

what you most want our audience to remember about this program today.

Well to to pray for us and

mindful Paul's admonition that we teach the whole Council of God

That we're faithful in word and deed.

You know.

And the needs are great to feel they're white for harvest.

You know, we we need your help.

Please come alongside of us.

Consider that.

Just go to WBM INC that is stands for Westminster Biblical Missions,

Incorporated.

WBM INC org.

Find it on the website.

You can contact me.

Look at.

I encourage people to to look at some of our publications.

A Philosophy of missions we were talking about that and we have a one -page written statement I

think would be helpful to people as to what our philosophy of missions is and how we accomplish that.

And the separation from The bad ecumenism that is out there, so

please help us.

Help be a prayer warrior.

You know, you know if you can give financially we need your help and I'm happy

to say that 95 cents on the dollar goes to the field and that's practically unheard of.

And you do have a director a church directory on the RC us.

We do.

On the RC us website. You can find that There are no three forms of unity

and different studies that we've done.

We are opposed to women in combat in the military and

we would stand behind any of our members to be.

For the ladies to be conscientious objectors.

We take a Nat, you know a stand against abortion.

Murder of an unborn child.

Be surprised a lot of denominations.

Don't touch it.

You leave it up to

you do not have women

into the right of Attila the Hun.

Well, I think you're just being biblical because.

That's what we strive to do.

We're not a perfect church.

You know, we're the church militant.

We're fighting against The world the devil and I'll

end of church.

And of course, you're jokingly saying that you're right of the Attila the Hun, but you do not demean

women by by Teaching biblical roles for men and women.

Oh.

And women can't worry.

And we would be stupid as men never to learn from their godly wisdom.

Not that they not that they should be in places and roles that are prohibited in the scriptures,

but women are great gifts to the church.

Women are valuable to teach other women, especially and Especially men that

are married.

Are foolish if they are dictators in their homes and never listen to their wives because their

wife.

Let's be honest, even though the man is the head of the home the wife May be a much more

wise Person in that household and he should be.

Even talking to my wife.

You may have a very godly seasoned saint who is female who

married a man who came to faith later in life and you know and she may have just be and then she may be even just Innately

smarter than him and and have a lot more but but obviously she still needs to submit to him.

But he would be a fool not to Take heed to her counsel.

Absolutely, I.

Mean, it's a blessing from God that two are one and you're stronger.

Satan doesn't want that and I'm happy to say that my

wife is my best friend 39 years of marriage.

God is a blessing.

That's great.

She's standing right behind you now.

Is that way?

Oh.

My late wife was a night shift nurse as well, so The the

thing that Really is important to bring up because you are a

reformed Christian Have been a reformed man

theologically for the majority of your life and Yet you are passionate about missions

this seems to be in the minds of many a Contradiction in terms.

This is oxymoron.

But this would be that yeah, this is not at all In contradiction to

the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, is it?

No, it's the means that God is ordained and we're responsible to take the gospel in the world.

Would it be a light set on a hill.

He said that to us the church.

Yes, that's our responsibility.

How shall they hear unless there's a preacher unless one is sent to go?

No, it is absolutely our responsibility and even historically.

Some of the greatest missionaries and evangelists have been Thorough going Calvinists.

I mean William Carey the father of the modern missionary movement and so on.

I mean you have on and on and on men like George Robert Moffett David Livingston.

Yeah.

Yeah, George Whitfield.

As far as his fervor and public evangelism I mean you just the

the the pages of history and the pages of Scripture are in harmony in that.

The fact that God is in control of all things does not hinder men From

obeying him and spreading the gospel.

And in fact, I have heard From those involved in missions that the doctrines of grace is what

gave them the zeal and the patience and the determination to remain where

they were when they didn't see fruit immediately coming whereas many Armenian mission

boards yank people off the field if they're not producing numbers quickly.

Right, so.

Obviously the fact that God has Chosen men and women from

out of humanity before the foundations of the world.

To receive the gift of salvation that does not at all hinder.

Christians God's sovereignty is what establishes Mission and I mean

he as the sovereign God says this is the way.

That people come to saving faith in Christ.

This is the way I call in my elect.

Through the preaching of the gospel through missionaries to pastors to evangelists

doing that work.

And we will be held accountable if we don't.

And one name that Comes to mind is Jim Elliott who gave his life

Presbyterian missionary in South America who was Killed by the I believe it was the

Alka Indians.

Oh, yeah, yeah, and his wife his widow.

Returned to evangelize them and spread the good news, even though they murdered her husband.

I mean just amazing stuff here that People think is you know,

I think it's oxymoronic, but it's not in any way shape or form and in

fact.

Yeah, buzz Taylor you as a reformed believer you have been I know people have also

confronted you With the fact that or should I say the assumption

that the doctrines of grace? Should be a hindrance to Evangelistic zeal

but yeah, yeah, yes.

I've heard that many many times and not of course for years of course the first Accusation I ever

hear from people when I talk about the doctrines of grace is that it's counter to evangelism and

You know, I said, you know I've been a Calvinist for years and I've never seen anybody actually I never heard anybody

say we don't have to evangelize because If they're electric, you know, the accusation is this is what we think

is I've never heard that before.

Unfortunately, I cannot say that anymore because there was one individual finally.

Yeah, well there are hyper Calvinist, all right, yes, but but there are minions who act like.

Camping.

They're all periled camping those is cultic and heretical as he was he did have a

Missionary zeal to spread his yeah I mean he did said some elements of truth but he also had some dangerous

lies that he was aggressive to spread all over the world, but The the there are

minions who behave like hyper Calvinist and just that they are lazy.

They don't even know or they're ashamed of the gospel that they are.

They're more afraid of men than of God and that's.

That's one of the primary things I think is at the heart of what we have been discussing Dennis.

Don't we need to be more feel more fearful of? God than

men.

In fact, we are to fear God and not fear men.

In regard especially to proclaiming his truth publicly no matter where the chips may fall, right?

And this is this includes the mission field.

Absolutely, you know, I mean I have people even say to me, you know, why would you go to Pakistan?

You know, you could get killed I said I could get killed going to Walmart to buy a box of attend.

I.

That's very true and.

We know greater honor than to give one's life for Christ.

I mean not that I'm gonna voluntarily put my head on the block, you know that I'll try to

resist the tyrant, but.

We do have an anonymous listener in Maryland who asked do you have any RC us

congregations Near Baltimore, Maryland.

Well for our Pennsylvania listeners what information can you give

them about the Gettysburg congregation.

Well, I would definitely like to invite Jay to my next iron sharpens iron

pastors luncheon Which I am planning God willing To take place sometime in

the spring.

I just had my first Pennsylvania iron sharpens iron pastors luncheon near Christmastime and

We for the very first time here in in Pennsylvania.

I had Over 50 men attend this gathering which was really

a pleasant shock to me.

Oh, yeah, I had done this for about 20 years in New York my wife my late wife

Came up with the idea to treat pastors to lunch every Christmas season in

lieu of giving each other gifts and we started doing that about 20 years ago and it

grew to such a Large numerical group that we had to

start getting corporate sponsorship for it.

And it would have a speaker come in every year Preaching a message specifically designed for men in ministry

and we get good solid.

Doctrinally and theologically sound books donated from publishers all over the the country to give

to these men.

So they and there's no agenda.

I'm not selling amway products or anything like that and the men are fed physically

and spiritually and leave with an armful of books and you and You missed the

last one, right?

Yes.

Yes, but you had a question you wanted to ask.

Well, I before we run out of time, we're talking to a person heavily involved in missions.

It just would seem sacrilegious to me to not have him say something about our Great Commission.

Amen.

Well, yeah The great blessing that Christ has given us that privilege to

take part in the building of this church As he, you know commanded us to go there for

and you know making disciples Baptizing them in the name of God the

Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit You know teaching them whatsoever.

He is commanded I mean I to me the methodology is very clear in Scripture what we ought to be

doing and That's what we focus on teaching the Word of God, but also They said, you know

giving the cup of water in Jesus name to our Lord to heal the sick He raised

the dead.

I mean the books could not contain all the glorious and wonderful things that he did and

You know, we need to follow in that train, you know

again Say to people too, if you don't mind that if if they're interested in this work, you know,

I'm even available to To come to churches and missionary

groups and Share in the work of missions.

I have video PowerPoint You know, even if there's a particular field go on our

website and look at WBMINC .org

Field you might have interest in and I'd be glad to To do that and there's no

financial obligation.

Okay, and would like to help with cost if you had me travel a long ways, but just for that

It's to do the work of the Lord together And we need others helping with us joining with us as

co -laborers in the mission.

And I really appreciate the emphasis that you put on training.

The the people on the field of the the natives.

Yeah a little trouble using the word I guess but yeah.

Because I have believed in that for many years that Rather than just support somebody to go be a

librarian for so many years you go there.

You plant churches the churches reach more and more people.

Those churches and those people then plant new churches and reach new people.

And you've got something that's going to be there long after you're gone.

We emphasize with all of our graduates from our schools Our

seminary or our Bible schools to do that.

As I said in South Korea, it's oh my well over 700 new churches.

Yes in in Pakistan.

Okay.

Now is that I'll be that kind of number.

But this is a Muslim nation That's the answer to the terrorism is the

changing of their heart.

Yes, a spiritual awakening that they would beat their swords to plow shares and

We have Almost 50 churches now that have been started in Pakistan.

Wonderful.

Yes.

Wow, praise God and then you know, we're doing the same want to do the same in the Paul Mexico

Central Eastern Europe wherever we go, you know, we have a high view of the church, which is the body of

Christ.

Yes.

Now Mexico sharing a border with the continent American

North American continent.

Tell us about what the main Confrontation of false Gospels would entail their.

Folks for coming to our to our churches they've told people

they will cut off their businesses by telling all the good Roman Catholic people in their

parish not to Go to their business not to give many, but so they threaten to starve them.

Basically.

Wow.

Yeah, it gets vicious.

Now.

What it what?

Other all just like in America.

Are there old?

Stripes of Catholicism there that run from the liberal social gospel all

the way to the Latin right now.

It's pretty much old world.

It's it's Old world.

Catholicism is the way I would describe it.

Yeah, and I'm sure very very superstitious and idolatry.

Oh.

Everywhere you go throughout Mexico, you'll find shrines out in the middle of nowhere and with

them.

You know loaded with money here.

These poor people are you know, but they're coming and giving because they're afraid if they

don't You know, they're gonna lose their in with God.

Any.

Dangers.

That the mission work there is experienced from the drug cartels and so on.

Yes.

Our main focus is right in the middle of it in Mishwa Khan.

Wow.

We had you know, one of our men's daughters kidnapped held for ransom.

Thinking that he was a rich man because he was associated with some Americans and all

that.

Let loose unharmed, I'll praise God for that.

But yeah, they say to you.

Yeah, we don't know what it's like to live.

Well, you're certainly doing quite a lot about changing that by starting so many churches there.

That's that's wonderful.

You know, I know how abruptly the end of this show comes up.

So before it's over. I just want to say Thank you very much Dennis.

It's been a joy talking to you and hearing of the work that you're doing.

We will be praying for you definitely and thank you very much.

I'm glad to have been a part of it.

Yeah.

Do you record these brother?

Oh, yes, I will be getting you an mp3 of this.

That'd be great.

We'd like to upload it and even maybe even leak your Iron sharpens

iron with our web page.

Oh, that's great.

Yeah.

In fact, you should have it within an hour or so takes about I don't know half hour or 45

minutes for me to upload The the program and I'll email it to you as soon as I can tonight.

God willing rate and very quickly the the Rcus devotionals that I've been

receiving for many years.

Is this something that the public can take advantage of and get on an email list?

Sure.

Yeah, just go to the rcs website and follow the menus and Resources and that you can

sign up for it.

I Kind of started that on my own.

And when you shut it down, so it's still going.

And some of the greatest men of God throughout history including some contemporary names

of the reformed faith and including.

Paul trip was a classmate of mine.

Oh, really?

Yes.

Yeah, I know Paul and know even to a greater degree his brother Ted.

Yes, and I pastored by each other.

Yeah, and.

And I know that you do include in the devotional even some great reformed Baptists like Charles Spurgeon.

Absolutely.

Well, let's give the audience your contact information one more time.

It's Wbm -inc.

That's Westminster Bible Mission incorporated Wbm -inc .org

and the rcus org.

That's it.

Well, thank you so much Dennis Rowe for being on the program.

I look forward to having you back.

Thank you.

God's riches blessing.

Thank you.

And thank you buzz Taylor for being my co -host today and I want you all always to remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a

far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

We are looking forward to your Questions for our guests next week on iron sharpens iron.

I hope you all have a very safe blessed refreshing invigorating and God

honoring weekend and Lord's Day.

God bless you all.