February 26, 2016 Show with Dennis E. Roe on Confronting the False Gospels of Liberalism & Romanism on the Mission Field

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote. We are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris Arnton.

Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. And the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnton wishing you all a happy Friday on this 26th day of February 2016 and This day has been a long time coming.

I've been wanting to interview my guest today for quite a while and different providential occurrences hindered that until now but his name is Dennis Rowe and For years I have been receiving his very inspiring and encouraging Biblical devotionals that he sends via email.

That basically are the the writings of some of the greatest heroes of Christian history both the past and the present and Dennis Rowe. Was ordained in 1982 and received into the Reformed Church in the United States also known as the RCUS.

He was the organizing pastor for Covenant Reformed Church in Carbondale, Pennsylvania from 1982 to 1995 and the organizing pastor for Covenant Reformed Church in Grass Valley, California from 1995 to 2015 where he is now the elected pastor emeritus and he has served as a chaplain for the 25th Infantry Division Association from 1995 to 2000 and he is now serving as a chaplain for the Calvary Association from 2000 and To the present should have said cavalry not Calvary.

I'm so used to saying the word Calvary Cal Calvary.

As well.

The three-quarter Cavalry Association. We're gonna be talking about Westminster biblical missions today, and we're going to be talking about Confronting the false Gospels of liberalism and Romanism on the mission field.

Our guest Dennis II row is a has been a board member of Westminster biblical mission from 1983 to 1988 Recording secretary at Westminster biblical missions from 1984 to 1989 a foreign missions committee member at the Reformed Church in the United States from 1985 to 1988 and from 2014 through next year and He has been on mission trips to Mexico, Taiwan, South Korea, Pakistan, Hungary Holland, Romania, Russia, Cyprus, Egypt northern Kenya for these Sudanese refugees and Southwestern Kenya and today since 1990 He has been and is still currently the general secretary for Westminster Biblical missions.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens. Iron Dennis II row.

Thank you very much Chris. It's my privilege to be here today.

And let me announce our email address if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Dennis regarding Confronting false Gospels on the mission field. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

That's CH RIS a RN ZN at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least. Your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and. Our guest is also just to let you know he's written for some publications such as the Reformed Herald Flashes which is a 25th Infantry Division Association publication McKenzie's Raiders, which is a three-quarter Cavalry Association Publication and he writes a bi-monthly newsletter for Westminster biblical missions for the Pakistan Lahore ministry, but.

Let me also introduce you Dennis to my co-host today the Reverend Buzz Taylor and the Reverend Buzz Taylor has served as pastor in fundamentalist Baptist charismatic Pentecostal and Church of God Finley Ohio Congregations and is now a theologically reformed Christian.

He has served as the pastor of at least one Presbyterian Congregation and is currently a member of a local PCA Congregation and it's my honor and privilege to have you back in studios my co-host. I almost said co-pastor.

My co-host.

Reverend Buzz Taylor. Hello. I'm glad my schedule has allowed me to be back once again, and and it's good to meet you, Dennis.

Yes.

Good to meet you, too.

The History and Confessional Identity of the RCUS

Before we even go into a description of the Westminster biblical mission I want to hear more about the Reformed Church in the United States also known as the RC us. That is probably Less known than some of the the larger reformed denominations like the PCA purpose Presbyterian Church in America the OPC Orthodox Presbyterian Church and some others.

But tell us something about the RC us. I know that I remember the RC us when it was called the Eureka classes.

Why.

Yes, it was the Eureka classes. Give you a little history. What is the The Reformed Church United States. We will meet in May and it will be the.

270th Senate.

Actually. It's the oldest denomination, I believe begun in the United States. Wow I didn't know that I'm in the church buildings on the in Pennsylvania housed Washington's troops during the war for independence.

Is that the one time we were the largest reformed denomination. A quarter of a million people that's going back in the.

Early 1900s, but.

The movement of Theological liberalism got root in our in our church sadly and The whole movement was bigger was better and the Bible became lesser and lesser. Significant to that whole movement the leaders then were very influential men.

Actually, wow, it was quite influence. Just the church and its ecumenicity that had to take preference over everything. So where if you were to go to the seminary that used to be Connected with us in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

You kind of see that displayed when you go in their chapel today. The history of it you you'll see a stained-glass window for John Calvin John Knox Luther Mother Teresa some popes and Whomever and that's where they are.

Theologically they actually the. When they started the mergers to to, you know in ecumenism I always wants to merge get bigger bigger supposedly better reformed church. In fact, you can still find some congregations scattered around Pennsylvania that but then they did they weren't happy there.

What they did was they incorporated a lot of the brethren. Actually, there's one church in the u .s. Had a nickname of the German reformed church. And they kind of had a thing anything that was German was good.

Well. Especially in the 30s, you know, well, that was a very terrible idea. Well, eventually they merged again with brethren Congregational a whole bunch of different groups and you have the United Church of Christ, right?

Very liberal far from oh, yeah. I actually organized a public theological debate.

Featuring my friend. Dr. James are white of Alpha Omega Ministries. Who's a reformed Baptist and a cleric within the United Church of Christ. Barry Lynn. Barry Lynn who is was an ACLU attorney and is currently the president of Americans United for Separation of Church and State and Dr. Lynn United Church of Christ minister was defending homosexuality in the debate as a legit as a legitimate Christian lifestyle.

Well when I was pastoring in Pennsylvania for a land out I I Met this brother and he was a pastor in the UCC and was really lamenting how bad it was. Of course, my encouragement was to come out from among them.

But you know the battle for him he'd spent so many years and then his retirement was threatened, etc. I'm happy to say that that brother did take a stand and separated. But he told me that in one of their meetings of Senate If you even tried to bring up an idea like pro-life or You know speak against homeless.

They would shout you down. Yeah, you weren't even allowed to speak.

Yeah, I actually yes, and Just um, I hate to keep dropping names. But another debate that I arranged many years ago back in the 90s, I believe I was a radio debate. Between my friend. Dr. James white and he was debating a United Methodist physician and a Seminary professor for the United Methodist denomination and he was pro abortion and we were debating on abortion and The man actually told dr. White to go to hell and Hung up on him when dr. White asked him a very simple question Do you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and God?

And he told him to go to hell and that was a personal that was a personal and private.

Belief that was none of his business. I had a similar experience. I was The church building we bought in Pennsylvania when I was pastoring there. We had been owned by the evangelical Lutheran Church. Which certainly isn't evangelical and I was talking to their as they call them priest.

And you know, he was just you know adamantly opposed to the Bible having any authority or any value really a bit apologetic for the authority of Scripture. He got so angry. He threw the Bible at me and said my faith isn't based on this blankety-blank book.

Wow, and it was just stunning.

Wow.

See the hatred in the animosity and really to cry now.

Obviously as you know some of the different reformed groups use different confessional standards. Some use the Westminster Confession and Catechisms some use the three forms of unity. Where is the RC us in that regard?

The RCS holds the three forms of unity as you know our standards as far as doctrinal standards, of course subservient to Scripture.

And that would be the Belgic Confession the Heidelberg Catechism and the Synods of Dort, right? You got it.

What happened with us was that when the murders were coming about that one of the classes? The Eureka classes as you mentioned earlier. Did not go with the merger the only one and. That's how we got the name the Eureka class.

We didn't have a Senate then but we organized the Senate. I was there for that and we have. We're still not a large church, you know the issue.

Well, I guess that there is something to be said of smaller being better sometimes then. Because the bigger you are as an organization the likelihood that things like that are gonna eventually creep in especially in.

Five-foot-four. I certainly agree.

And.

What are some of the other unique things about the RC us that that may make you stand out as a denomination?

Well, we still practice the catechizing of our children. We the pastors work with the children. Depending on the child 10 11 12 years old to begin the memorization and then we do have the practice of Confirmation it simply we're discipling our children by God's grace.

Even that they're there ought to be Regeneration at the same time. We believe our children important day of all people need to be discipled and that's what we're doing. So you see that's a distinctive.

Yeah, you would take a similar view to my friend. Dr. Joel Beeky. Although he although he is a Pato Baptist those in his fellowship of Churches view the children as a mission field to be born again. That's right.

Amen. Oh, how about it? Amen, anything else? I know that there are. There is also some disagreement amongst some of the reformed denominations regarding the use of.

Modern.

Translations of the Bible within reason and so on. Did you have any official position on that or?

You know, it's the liberty of the congregation, but I you know, I would say It's King James Bible, but by that I.

Yes.

Yeah, we're conservative in that regard. You know cite, you know other Translations so forth which we want our pastors to be competent enough to think another distinctive is, you know. We're careful about communion.

We're not closed communion if we have someone we don't know them. We ask if they desire for having the Lord's Supper that day that they let it be known to one of the elders so that we can speak with them to see that they at least have You know an understanding of the gospel who cried Burena and they might have moved with them, but we're concerned that they you know are committed to the body of Christ.

Right, you know. And.

Confronting Liberalism, Romanism, and Ecumenical Drift

Well, one of the main themes that we're speaking on today, obviously is that you as a group the Westminster biblical mission are confronting the false Gospels of liberalism and Romanism and among that That group of Heretical issues to confront is the modern ecumenical movement.

Now obviously Christians should have a biblical approach to ecumenism. They should not be opposed to all ecumenism and. Just wondering how far? The RC us would go on that. Do you have any kind of fellowship with like Reformed Baptists such as myself who adhere to the 1689 London Baptist Confession or?

Have what's called. You know, we have a specific relationship outlined in our Constitution for the denomination of having an eternal relationship with everything. You know, for example, we have the same PC.

I did. Reformed church. United Reformed Churches. Yes, also the Canadian and American Reformed Church has not been able to get squared away with the PCA. Okay now.

I understand from your own your own Biographical sketch. You went to John Wesley College and I did. I was the only living Calvinist they ever saw.

They were all dead.

So, so you were already a Calvinist when you went to John.

Yes, oh so you went to the Reformed Episcopal Seminary before you went. So I got a diploma then I went and finished my undergraduate work and came back and was given.

This is a shot in the dark here, but did you happen to know my dear friend who is now with the Lord Dr. Robert J. Cameron, who was a. Wow, what a small world. Ladies and gentlemen, I did not know that before this interview.

Yeah, dr Cameron were and I were very very close friends as well. And he was close to my late wife he was a precious brother in Christ a certain and.

He preached in our cart for our congregation here the year before he passed away. Wow.

That is something. Well, I I got I got to send you an mp3 link of a couple of my interviews with him on the old iron. He did he did a wonderful Program on the things that He he was very distressed about and and And found an urgent need to warn members of the black church at large.

Those involved in mainstream african-american christianity had a very he had a very bold stance against many of the serious heresies and and dangerous waters that that many of these professing Christians and churches are basically waiting and He was a very bold voice and he let the chips fall where they may for the cause of truth.

Did not care of the slightest bit about being politically correct and Was more concerned over Bob. I knew yeah, he was much more concerned over honoring and obeying God and Rescuing the souls of sinners than he was about hurting sinners feelings.

And.

The church where he served there now Pete's well, so that the church is still functioning. Oh, yeah, Mount Carmel.

Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Somerset, New Jersey.

Is it still an OPC congregation? Well, you know, I've been three years. I'm you know, I don't know that they've changed.

Because they were a reformed Episcopal congregation initially, right and they became PCA and then they became OPC and this may this may get a lot of our listeners scratching their heads, but one of the main issues that That caused the dr. Cameron to leave the PCA is that he was very upset that a very major congregation in the PCA Had celebrated believe it or not.

Hold on to your hats folks. They celebrated Martin Luther King jr. Day, and he is a black man found that offensive that a church would do that because of dr. King's doctoral dissertation denying the the pillars of the faith such as the deity of Christ the virgin birth substitutionary atonement and things like that bodily resurrection and he actually That was one of the straws that finally broke the camel's back for him.

But and the fact that the church was not at all disciplined, but that's that's a whole nother issue for another day.

So.

You are now actively involved. Oh, by the way, I just wanted to let our listeners know that the website for the RC us is RC us org, that's the Reformed Church United States RC us org if anyone wants to find out more about that denomination and Now we're going to be delving more In into deeper Levels with the Westminster biblical mission and your confrontation of false Gospels on the mission field.

Tell us Our listeners about the Westminster biblical mission.

Well, Westminster biblical missions was founded in 1973 by two missionaries that were kind of disenfranchised Left on the field by a certain denomination, which I won't mention. But not mine, so that's good.

But these brothers realized I mean they were committed to know knew that they needed Government and they weren't to be on their own. So they asked some other.

Brothers.

Pastors and elders and president and they did so they founded Westminster. Biblical missions are doctrinal as well. That's about related to how the mission for board that we're accountable to and so forth so that there is that You know good accountability that we're not I as general secretary when it's twice a year.

You're well watch over and help each of the mission fields that we have. I came on board in 1982. So the mission wasn't that old and to be one of the old guys involved Reverend Earl Peake went to be with the Lord this past 91.

Just an amazing man of God. He really helped pioneer one of our field e25 time. Mr. Biblical mission. Christianity of course doctrinally as we understand it from The Westminster standards is a good expression of the Bible's teak about us in today's world is that We follow What's known by some as a nebulous method of doing missions and that is that?

We don't attempt to field American missionaries on the field full-time. What we do is attempt to find faithful Man faithful leaders in being called to serve in and Work with building them up seeing that they're faithful men.

So that they can do the work of the ministry, and that's a perfect inherently that involves theological education.

That would be a perfect place for us to pick up after the break because we have to go to station break right now. I'd like to learn more about that. Obviously, it's a major factor that Discussing if anybody would like to join us on the air as well with a question of your own.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dennis E row of Westminster biblical mission in our discussion of confronting the false Gospels of liberalism and Romanism on The mission field.

Don't go away.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man. If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukins pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do Than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity. But since that wasn't the Apostles priority it must not be ours either. We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man.

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Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio. Welcome back.

This is Chris Lawrence, and if you just tuned us in our guest today is Dennis E Who is the general secretary for Westminster biblical mission and studio. With me as my co-host today is the reverend buzz?

Taylor we are discussing confronting false gospels on the mission field with primary focus on liberalism and Romanism. And if you have a question of your own Email us a question at Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Right before the break you were talking about the nevious method of missions that Westminster biblical mission is involved in and I'm assuming the nevious method is named after the 19th century missionary to China Presbyterian missionary to China John Nevious.

You got it.

And if you could go go and know a little bit more depth about that.

Well.

With the nationals and build up the national church. Number of reasons for that. One is that when you feel the missionary from another? country another culture He has to spend Communicate with because if you have a national I mean, you know born there and Understands it and doesn't have to go through all that as well as the language.

I mean, I've known missionaries. Much more Missionaries that we feel. For example now for one missionary and you want to say even missionary family It's minimally that they have to raise our budget for the state for example Pakistan our largest field in the whole area.

We we have five 2 ,500 students a Faculty of over 50 plus a lot of other staff, you know maintenance and all of that. We have two medical clinics 35 literacy centers where we teach people to read using the Bible as the primer.

We do all that for $15 ,000 a month. Incredible.

If we were.

I.

Taken the challenge from the brothers. They wanted me to work, you know more full-time in the work. You know, it's just come about. Providentially as I had some health issues last year that I had to make a choice of whether I was going to continue Mastery my man.

I'm also on the faculty of a seminary and since we are talking about ecumenism, and we did mention.

A biblical ecumenism that I think would be something that every obedient Christian should be involved in to some degree. The the Westminster biblical mission is not exclusively an RC u .s.

Parachurch organization, correct? No, in fact, yes, you have to start supporting Westminster biblical missions as a denomination just two years ago. Okay, and I've been in the domination over 30 years.

Yeah, they're slow, but they get there.

One thing I forgot to ask you about the RC us and I'm pretty sure I remembered correctly before I even asked you this. But there is also division amongst different reform denominations about.

Exclusive psalm ity versus him singing. I believe you're on the him singing side, correct? Yes, we use him the instruments and You know, I mean we're you would say it's traditional if you want to use a Description of it, but you know, we have a directory of worship and we want it to be biblical.

If you read our directory of worship, which is pretty much like the Orthodox Presbyterian Churches Focal point of of the Word of God and preaching the Word of God In the sacraments to be accompanied with the preaching the Word of God never separating them Pastor totalism and the sacrament you can't replace the Word of God.

There must be that control to all of our yes.

In fact, I remember one of the RC us pastors Told me the best argument I heard against exclusive psalm ity and this is no offense to my friends who are Practicing exclusive psalm ity, but he said that the fact that you could not sing Praises to Christ by the name Jesus Christ in song.

If you were involved in exclusive psalm ity of course, they the exclusive psalm ity advocates are singing praise to Christ because he existed obviously as a part of the Godhead from all eternity, but but he by name is the specific reason that it would be a a Check on the negative side with that.

You cannot sing praises to Jesus Christ by name, but.

You have hymns in the New Testament. The passages of Scripture that just fly out that it was an early hymn. You know. And that It's phrased that way.

So what would be the different denominational groups that are cooperating with Westminster biblical mission?

Well, I'm the Reformed Presbyterian Church in North America, we've You know taken some of their material even and had it have had it translated into the Urdu language of Pakistan their elders handbook an excellent handbook.

You know and a lot of the churches in Pakistan are Exclusive psalm ity because that's the only hymn book. They had it. It's not a position with our denomination. Facing ecumenism on the field. You know, I was involved in You know, let's mr.

Biblical missions has fields and in Pakistan Mexico Central Eastern Europe and We were in South Korea. I just recently returned from Nepal where we may be opening a new field first went to Hungary in 1990.

The Reformation came to Hungary. And there is a what's known as the Hungarian Reformed Church but we soon discovered that it was quite ecumenical and Not in a good and healthy way, for example. One of their seminaries in Debrecen Hungary on the faculty.

We found that Reformed ministers, but there also were Roman Catholic priests and even worse.

Unitarian. Wow, I.

Mean, you know good. And so it was just deplorable to find that that's where the Reformed Church gone to.

And.

Formed a name only fine believers there and we were able to work with them, you know, that's Be an ecumenical with them but based upon Scripture.

Yeah, just like there are Rhino Republicans. There are Rhino Christians reformed in name only.

Yes, absolutely. And.

So.

What one of the things that people Immediately may have the back the hairs in the back of their head their neck stand on in. Then there's there what they're hearing maybe on the surface. Sounding like hate bigotry prejudice, etc.

That now the reason that we as Bible-believing Christians would not want to be involved in religious activity. With those who are of the Roman Catholic Faith it really is the heart of it is the the difference on the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the heart of.

Why.

Christians are alive and and spreading the the good news about Christ is the gospel itself.

Compromise the message. You know and often you have that especially, you know, you look how everybody lauds mother Teresa. Well, she you know, she did some good things in a humanitarian sense. But you know, she was a Roman Catholic.

Where's the gospel? You know, there's no works righteousness. That that's damnable that you know, you may have helped their body, but you've lost their soul. Yeah. You know, we believe and we stress this as a mission.

We don't go to the other extreme or we ignore their bodies. As I said in Pakistan we have two medical clinics. I went to Nepal and we distributed You know hundreds of blankets because of the great earthquake there and so many people didn't even have coverings for the night.

Now our hearts go out to him that way, but it's in word and deed. They go together and to separate them is a travesty. You're denying the gospel. You must give the cup of water. Understand that to be giving the gospel as well.

Now to make it clear to some of our listeners who are still confused over.

Every time I have a discussion about humanism with a good friend of mine who is a Roman Catholic a staunch defender of Catholicism. But he's also more of a moderate in the fact that he is an ecumenist and.

He.

Always says With it with an angry reply. What do you mean? We believe in different Gospels? We have the same for Matthew Mark Luke and John. He doesn't seem to understand what we're talking about and.

And the fact of the matter is that the Council of Trent in the 16th century condemned as Being anathema accursed those who believe That salvation is by grace all grace alone through faith alone Christ alone.

And they have not repudiated that stand. That's what I tell, you know Roman Catholics all the time. Sometimes surprised by it, you know, and I said well you need to understand your own. You know position as a church so to say.

Yeah, because in Pennsylvania where the community is 95 Roman Catholic and. So many of them just ignorant of the gospel. Yeah, it's bad.

And of course it what would even blurs the distinctions is That you have since Vatican to the language Just being totally being rewritten for public relations purposes where you have Protestants being called separated brothers and you have even in the modern catechisms Jews and Muslims.

And men and women of other religions outside of Christianity may enter into heaven and they say that the Muslims even Adore the same one true God as they do. And and this this adds to the confusion because the Catholic Church is really They mock Protestantism for being guilty of adopting a blueprint for anarchy.

Because we have allegedly and this is a false number, but we have a legend allegedly over 30 ,000 denominations and.

Well, I'd rather have that liberty than have the totalitarianism of Rome right. And and the the irony though is.

In spite of the fact that there is a totalitarianism There is there were probably more divisions within Catholicism than there are with an evangelical Christianity. Because you have all different kinds of Roman Catholics at which which obviously the the clearest example Of somebody who has departed from Catholic history is the Pope the current Pope Pope Francis.

You're right. Take down the walls. He's working. He's the biggest Ecumenist they've ever had and I have they've always been syncretistic. They you know, they'll do whatever it takes to get somebody in the door.

When I put it right will to be of depending upon the error and the culture and so on. It used to be the sword and now it's blending in with the surroundings.

And so.

We we recognize my guest and I and my co-host that there are wonderful God-fearing Catholic people. In fact, there are Catholic people whose company I prefer over some of my own Christian brothers, but That does not mean that we are to cooperate with them religiously as if we have the same gospel and.

Because we do not and now obviously there are Catholic individuals who have the true gospel, but they are believing in the true gospel in spite of What religion they claim to be affiliated with? Right, right, they're Catholic in name only or Roman Catholic in name only and.

So you do you see in fact buzz you were asking about this before the show. But in fact buzz you were asking if you want to repeat the question yourself. But you were saying is is approaching false Gospels different on the mission field.

Yes.

Well, I was asking Chris, of course, you know, we talking to today and He mentioned the subject and I'm I was just wondering if there was a difference In approaching false religions on the mission field from approaching them right here in America and.

One of the thoughts that occurred to me was that there may be and I'm since I'm not a missionary I don't know this but I'm assuming that there may be more of a tendency for Missionaries who are alone in a foreign culture to be more willing to bend and cooperate with those who Within Rome or within some liberal Protestant groups just because of the fact that they want to cooperate on perhaps some benevolent Efforts of feeding people and clothing them and you know, it may lead to other kinds of cooperation.