Pastor's Perspective Radio

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line.

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

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United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. Therefore say the house of Israel, thus says the

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Lord God, is it not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came.

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And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations and which you have profaned among them.

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And the nations will know that I am Yahweh, declares Yahweh Elohim, the Lord God, when through you

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I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land.

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And I will sprinkle clean water on you and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness and from all your idols

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I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart and a new spirit

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I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

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And I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers and you shall be my people and I will be your

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God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleanness and I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you.

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I'll make the fruit of the tree and increase the field abundant that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations.

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Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations.

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It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God. Let that be known to you, be ashamed and confounded for your ways,

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O house of Israel. Thus says the Lord God on the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities,

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I will cause the cities to be inhabited and the waste places to be rebuilt and the land that was desolate shall be tilled instead of being the desolation that it was in the sight of all who passed by and they will say the land that was desolate has become like the

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Garden of Eden and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited. Then the nations are left all around you shall know that I am

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Yahweh. I have rebuilt the ruined places, replanted that which was desolate. I am Yahweh. I have spoken and I will do it.

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That's a section of Ezekiel chapter 36 and immediately after that we have another illustration given in Ezekiel 37.

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The hand of Yahweh was upon me and he brought me out in the spirit of Yahweh and set me down in the middle of the valley. It was full of bones and he led me around among them and behold there were very many on the surface of the valley and behold they were very dry and he said to me son of man can these bones live and I answered oh

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Lord God you know and he said to me prophesy over these bones and say to them oh dry bones hear the word of Yahweh thus says the

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Lord God to these bones behold I will cause breath to enter you and you shall live and I will lay sinews upon you and will cause flesh to come upon you and cover you with skin and put breath in you and you shall live and you shall know that I am

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Yahweh. So I prophesied as I was commanded and as I prophesied there was a sound and behold a rattling and the bones came together bone to its bone and I looked and behold there were sinews on them and flesh had come upon them and skin had covered them but there was no breath in them then he said to me prophesy to the breath prophesy son of man say to the breath thus says the

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Lord God come from the four winds oh breath and breathe on these slain that they may live so I prophesied as he commanded me and the breath came into them and they lived and stood on their feet in exceeding great army then he said to me son of man these bones are the whole house of Israel behold they say our bones are dried up our hope is lost we are indeed cut off therefore prophesy and say to them thus says the

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Lord God behold I will open your graves and raise you from your graves oh my people and I will bring you into the land of Israel and you shall know that I am

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Yahweh when I open your graves and raise you from your graves oh my people here two texts side by side in order in Ezekiel chapter 36 picked up by the

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New Testament indeed this is the background of Jesus words in John 6 that new spirit that being born again to Old Testament pictures just so we have in Jeremiah 31 the new covenant and a new people but what did you hear over and over and over and over again was this

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Israel accomplishing these things was this Israel turning to God of its own free will there was only one free will and all of this discussion and it was

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God's thus says the Lord God Ezekiel 36 22 it is not for your sake

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Oh house of Israel that I am about to act but for the sake of my holy name which you have profaned among the nations to which you came who is the one who acts here this isn't prevenient grace this isn't

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God just making salvation possible this is God saving and for his own name his own holiness his own purpose of vindication of himself this is the difference between God centered salvation and man centered salvation it's

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God who accomplishes these things and the purpose is the nations will know that I am

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Yahweh just as in the destruction of Egypt just as in the destruction of the gods of Egypt in the plagues

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God is making his power known as in that context that we read these words

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I will sprinkle clean water on you and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness and from all your idols

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I will cleanse you and I will give you a new heart and a new spirit

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I will put within you I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh

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Ezekiel 36 26 I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statues be careful to obey my law verse 27 these are descriptions beautiful descriptions of the work of the spirit and regeneration the new covenants in the blood of Jesus Christ prophesied long before the fulfillment takes place now in light of that a few weeks ago in fact

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I believe it's right before I went to London I asked a question we were listening to the folks on the pastor's perspective program and we were asking about the issue of I have no idea what that noise was either but you're looking at me like I did it and I didn't

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I did nothing here whatsoever don't look at me with that condemning look

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I didn't do anything I'm just in here preaching you're the one with all the knobs man not me okay

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I asked a question of Brian Broderson and Chuck Smith and everybody that all the guests hosts and everything else who are constantly emphasizing the free will of man the autonomy of man

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God responds to man but man is the one who makes this determination how do they understand this text there is a constant drumbeat of God's sovereignty

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God's freedom God's preeminence and the absolute deadness of man only thing man does here is rebel and die and can you imagine what it was like when

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God told Ezekiel you know being Ezekiel was rough God told Ezekiel to do a lot of really weird things he takes him to this valley filled with dry bones he says

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Ezekiel prophesied to the bones prophesied to the bones can you imagine if Ezekiel was a rationalist oh well

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God there really isn't any reason to do that there they're dead bones prophesied of the bones

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Ezekiel Ezekiel's faithful and he's obedient and can you imagine what that rattling sound was like as those bones come together and they're covered with sinews and then with flesh now there's bodies lying every sometimes people ask us why do you evangelize if you if you believe men are dead and sin why bother well

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I'll just ask you why do you think Ezekiel prophesied to the bones because God told him to that's why

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Ezekiel was obedient Ezekiel didn't have to ask God for some kind of explanation about why he did what he was supposed to do

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God took care of the rest but I asked the question how would those men on the pastor's perspective in light of the drumbeat of God's freedom the deadness of man and especially this text the heart of stone you catch the the depth of what this prophecy is telling us listen to it again

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I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh there's something wrong when a man who is made of flesh has a heart of stone men shouldn't have hearts of stone but that's a description of the natural man the man outside of Christ who has not been brought into spiritual union with Christ as a heart of stone in his flesh and I'm tempted to make application to all the atheists with whom

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I have encounters and everything else there's a lot that we could preach on from here but what

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I want you to hear is the text I will remove the heart of stone how can we get from that to the honestly twisted and perverted idea that what

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God's really saying here is I would I would like to change your heart of stone but I can't until your heart of stone enables me because I'm a gentleman how did we get there how did these texts that scream the sovereignty of God the freedom of God how do we get to the point where those those texts are muted in favor of the sovereignty of man

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I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh not when your heart of stone enables me to do so and freely invites me to do so you see it's the heart of flesh that desires

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God it's the heart of flesh that repents it's the heart of flesh that believes so you see

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God must act first God must be free so I asked the question on this program

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I said wonder how they deal with this because I've never heard him address it they have their pet texts that George Bryson has basically directed them to he's the head of anti -reformed propaganda amongst

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Calvary chapels and so they have their their particular texts they go to I've never heard him deal with this so I was in London back on the 25th of February someone called in and asked and we're gonna listen that entire call uninterrupted you'll listen to the entire call once I plug it in it's plugged in now

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I was I wasn't I hadn't started it I just just looked down there and saw the plug laying there and said you know if I play right now it's not going to function very well so now it's plugged in you listen to the entire call

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I'm not even get interrupted I want you to hear what I said

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Jesus sounds like when your traditions have determined your theology rather than the text what does that sound like well here it is and I really hope the fellow who called in is listening

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I'd love to hear from I would love to hear from this man to find out if he feels like his question got answered he says he's been listening to the dividing line but since he was talking to folks in Calvary Chapel he had to in essence apologize for listening to me and you can hear

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Brian Burris and say well I try to listen to James Weisel as possible okay you know it's fine I'd the only reason

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I listen to pastors perspective program at all is when someone writes it says they said XYZ so okay that's fine no no problem but I want you to hear an honest question about this text you tell me if they responded here's from the

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February 25th program pastors perspective Brian Broterson answering a question on Ezekiel chapter 36

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I'm not hearing anything we're doing great you both of you guys

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Brian and Joe with their thoughts I love listening to your ministries I'm looking to you a lot sitting in Calvary Chapel Murrieta here under Brian Brill for about 18 years and and I just love sitting under him he's a great pastor great

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Shepherd and the same time I've also had the opportunity to start studying under some of the different teachers who podcast like RC scroll

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John Piper you know listen to Greg Coco a lot all these guys are very reformed in their thinking you know

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I've listened to you a lot and I've seen a lot of unfruitful hits on this Calvinism Arminianism debates last week

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I listened to a guy call and talked to you and your wife and I just thought there's something that was unfruitful and I you know because no one's gonna decide something over a couple minutes conversation it just doesn't happen right and I also hit that you kind of took towards the beginning of the month

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I think it was when a guy called in and you and Don and Chuck were talking and and forgive me if I'm paraphrasing you right here but something about Calvinism doesn't have the heart of Jesus am

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I saying that right yeah right mm -hmm and previous

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I've kind of been people and then please don't cringe here I just got recently turned on to James White and and he was critiquing some of this stuff and I'm sure you've been listening to it

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I'm assuming and I tried to listen to James White as little as possible but you know since I work janitorial and I work at night

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I have an opportunity to listen and critique all these guys and what they're saying and I just got done reading your blog today but I also he said something and I and I was trying to figure it out myself and Ezekiel 36 about how you know we have a heart of stone and God gives us a heart of flesh something like this and I'm trying to figure this one out maybe you can help me with it it says do we as Christians you know with the heart of stone choose to do what is right before God and therefore he takes out that heart of stone we choose to do what is right and then gives us a heart of flesh now how would we answer that well it sounds like the references to the classic

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Calvinistic view of regeneration before faith that before you can do anything that's right you've got to have your heart of stone taken out and you got to have a new heart put in you before you can even believe and that is that's the

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Calvinism with the total depravity it is also a total inability and we personally

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Joe and I and many others reject that position not that a man you know can't believe and needs to be regenerated before he can believe but people refuse to believe but to me and I was having the same conversation with Brett last week as she referred to it it this seems to be getting the cart before the horse it seems especially from John chapter 3 the classic passage on the new birth regeneration

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Jesus seems to link it to belief and I you know

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I just the insistence that this is the other way around I think this is a classic example as I mentioned in my article of trying to impose or force impose the five points on the

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Bible or force the Bible to conform to this five -point system Joe yeah

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I mean it's it's very clear that the regeneration follows faith and if it doesn't then we have this precarious position of explaining why

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God regenerates this person and why he doesn't regenerate that person if God has the capability to save all people but he chose just to save this one though he could have saved this other one and he didn't if he was in a court of law he would be thrown in prison if you can save somebody who's drowning even though they're breaking the law you may be held culpable for not attempting to save that person so it ends up putting

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God in a corner that is really difficult for him to get out of if we're gonna say that regeneration comes before faith and that's what

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R .C. Sproul has been saying and in most of the reform movement has been saying but that just seems to be putting the cart as Brian said before the horse it just puts the one thing ahead of another and so it's it's difficult yeah and and they they tend to base that on the idea that comes from Paul's statement in Ephesians chapter 2 that you were dead in your trespasses and sins but it seems to us that they take this idea of dead in trespasses and sins beyond what

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Paul intended to mean when he said that they take it to the point where and they will ask questions what can a dead man you know what can a dead man do and obviously from you know if we're talking about a physically dead man he can't do anything and so then likewise well a spiritually dead man can't do anything a spiritually dead man can't believe so he has to be made alive first thus the regeneration comes and then the belief comes afterward yeah that's well said

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Brian and when we take Ephesians 2 we're dead in our trespasses and sins I mean a person can be either dead in an intensive sense which means the image of God or the faculty for volition is actually dead and it's inoperable completely separated from God or you can define that deadness as an extensive deadness in other words it extends to all part of our being both material and immaterial but it doesn't annihilate any capacity to choose so if we can take dead to be extensive and not intensive will be okay and when when the

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Calvinist actually starts telling us that we're dead and we can do nothing for ourselves remember deadness is only one model of the human condition in Scripture it also tells us that we are sick and we know that sick people can do something for themselves it tells us we're blind blind people can do something for themselves and we're poor we're blind we're naked in need of a physician dead people don't need physicians anymore so if we don't overemphasize the deadness of man even though we know we're totally depraved but not in an intensive sense we're depraved in an extensive sense and so the overemphasis on deadness is causing this whole total depravity dilemma to take a turn where it wasn't really intended to go so we need to be sure that we're looking at deadness scripturally and in Scripture dead is always referring to separation never annihilation we have deadness in reference to the afterlife you're dead you're separated from your body

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James says the spirit is separated from its body or if we're talking about the eternal death we're talking about an eternal separation from God but it is never ever described in Scripture as an annihilation or a rendering of nothingness to a capacity of man and when one last comment on that of course the great illustration of what it actually refers to is

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Adam himself who was told God in the day that you eat of this you will die thus he died when he ate but as you mentioned

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Joe he his faculty to commune with God was not annihilated he was separated from God but he still had communion with God God met him in the garden

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God spoke to him God clothed him God promised them of course the first messianic promise in Genesis 3 15 so Adam poses

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I think a tremendous problem for the Calvinistic view of what dead means because he was dead he was the one who was told you're gonna be dead but yet he still has this capacity to hear

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God God comes into the garden and speaks to him where are you and that's right he responds but okay

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I think we have said enough about that topic for the day so let's move on there you go there you go there you go we've said about that we didn't say a word about Ezekiel 36 26 but we said enough about that absolutely amazing absolutely amazing cite the text and depart very quickly there from because they don't have an answer

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I'm not saying that to be a troublemaker or anything else

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I don't believe they have an answer because their tradition is not robust enough to provide an answer it's just not there

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Ezekiel 36 26 completely ignored by Brian Broderson is co -host on pastors perspective

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I'm sorry for the caller he didn't get an answer I would love to invite that caller maybe not listening live listen to the podcast by the time you can call and I'd like to hear from you

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I'd like to see if you feel you got an answer because they have no answer the text is it in opposition to them and they immediately ran off and just kept repeating the things they've been taught what you just heard was tradition you've heard it from Dave Hunt you've heard from Noren Geisler you've heard it from Chuck Smith now you're hearing from Brian Broderson and his co -hosts it's just tradition that's not exegesis that's not teaching the

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Bible so I think we've demonstrated without question that the text says what the text says we don't have to run from it we can actually look at it in context and discuss the language and see the connections in Utah so we can deal with Ezekiel 36 but very briefly just a in response

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God could be thrown in prison for not trying to save everyone really so did you need to understand that that's a very common might well if God just doesn't try to save I mean you could be held culpable for that as if the logs is outside of God but even beyond that that mindset is very deeply entrenched that results in a twisted view of man's sin and God's holiness and hence of God's grace because God's grace becomes something that's demanded and no longer free and grace it is not free is no longer grace that's why they prefer a peanut butter grace where God at least tries but fails prize then it's okay because then he he can't be brought up on charges as if God is under any obligation any obligation to be gracious to any one don't you understand those of you who hold this position don't you realize how backwards that is to everything else you say you believe this is where the inconsistency comes in do you really want to say

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God is under obligation to be gracious what about what about holiness isn't the whole point of the cross the amazing grace of God that he would do this not because he's under obligation but he does so freely amazing that someone can make that type of argumentation dead only means separation never annihilation as if we believe that something is annihilated remember this is the common straw man misrepresentation you can't accurately argue against the position so you build straw men so it sounds like you're actually accomplishing something as if we say something's been someone has been annihilated man's will has not been annihilated it's been enslaved the one doing sin is the slave of sin that's

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Jesus's own teaching do you hear that capacity of man capacity of man

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I'm just struck how many times we have God is able Jesus is able he is able to save the uttermost

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God is able to draw those to Christ he is able to raise them all in the last day

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God's ability God's ability God's ability what do we have that man man is unable to hear man is unable to come unable to do this unable to submit himself and what does man's traditions do reverses it man is capable

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God has to be able to fail tradition that turns things on its head upside down backwards all for the sake of man's almighty will

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Adam poses a tremendous problem you know he heard God speaking he wasn't spiritually dead what did he do when he heard

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God speaking he separated himself he hid he knew he was naked he tried to he tried to come up with his own way of covering its nakedness with the fig leaves

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God has to provide the proper covering there you go one of the clearest examples of we don't have an answer but we're gonna pretend like we're gonna we're gonna talk about the

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Bible anyways if you don't have an answer just be honest say I don't know never thought that one before but I'm not willing to examine it that seems to be it was going on there amazing stuff absolutely amazing because this is the same man who says well

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Calvinism doesn't have the heart of Jesus and yet I can never imagine Jesus handling scripture like that you look like you're wanting to say something well we're on the subject of Brian Broderson and the

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Calvary Chapel show there and their callers one of the things that struck me in their previous call that we discussed had to do with the first John 5 1 and I'd like you to address the issue of the fact the

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NIV the New American Standard the King James New King James all these different translations he was clearly reading from one of those translations yet I got the impression that he sort of capitulated a little bit to the collar on the has -been translation as opposed to the present tense is translation

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I'd like you to address that well we didn't play that particular call the the guy who called in and was trying to present first John 5 1 didn't he properly explain the relationship of the present tense the the participle the one believing with the perfect tense has been born but then seemingly just abandon that people have said well why does the

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ESV have everyone who believes Jesus is a Christ has been born of God and he says whoever believes

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Jesus Christ is born of God both are perfectly fine translations because we're talking about the perfect tense perfect tense in Greek as reference to a completed action the past with abiding results the present therefore whenever you're translating a perfect tense verb you have to make a syntactical decision as to what the emphasis is upon is the emphasis upon the completed action in the past or is the emphasis upon the abiding results in the present the continuing state that comes from that the

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ESV renders that with an emphasis upon the completed the the complete action in the past hence has been born of God and continues to be born of God whereas the

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NASB renders it is born of God that is he is right now born of God not denying the perfect tense but we just don't have anything in English that really can handle that and in fact that's why you have like the amplified translation which is next to impossible to read but at least

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I haven't looked at the amplified but something tells me it attempts to bring that out and say has been is etc etc because both are reflected in the meaning of the term but either translation is not changing the reality of the fact that everyone who is right now believing that Jesus is the

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Christ has true saving faith has that true saving faith because they have been born from God that's the point and that's what men don't like because that again places the very essence of salvation into the hands of God to freely do with it as he pleases and that's what man doesn't want that's what man rejects that meant that man says

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I can't be I won't allow it and yet that is very clearly the testimony of scripture 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number

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Skype at dividing dotline Twitter at dr.

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Oakley 1689 is the addresses by which you can get hold of me before we go to our first phone call which is somewhat relevant to the topic but I before we get buried in that there was one more thing

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I wanted to play for you I'll be very brief it's not nearly as long as the others let me find about where it was so we don't have to listen to the whole thing this is a recording of a program from many many moons ago this is actually this aired only last last year but I'm dr.

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Eric and canner giving his act 16 sermon slash testimony thing which he's done a number of times of listen to various versions of it now and I want you to catch some statements that he makes here in regards to his own past I did they have this conviction to stick around here it is they knew there was a soul at stake we leave we go to Macedonia Troas Crete we go somewhere else we live another day that guy they're either gonna take his life or he kills himself they knew it what do you do they had the conviction to stick around you see churches that act like churches have the conviction to stick around because there are souls at stake it's not about our buildings it's not about our programs it's the fact that there are souls at stake it's the fact that there are souls dangling over the gaping maw of hell that there are people who are dangling by the precipice of a razor's edge wondering if there's somebody who's got something that's worth living for in other words my friends my brothers my sisters that means that churches that act like churches understand this principle we don't build and program and budget and organize and implement for all those who are already here you've been saved 50 years wonderful you've been saved 100 years great this church your church doesn't exist for you your church this church our churches are supposed to build and program and organize and implement and give and budget for the souls that are not here yes okay now

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I'm giving you context so you can see what it is I've been talking about that it's the audience exciting

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Ergon Kanner that almost always results in his exaggerations in other words if Ergon Kanner was preaching

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Greek foreign Baptists he'd never exaggerate anything because they never get him rolling he'd be sitting there staring at him he'd tell the truth the whole time theology matters do you know why that's so important do you know why that's so important cuz somebody stuck around for you somebody stuck around for me

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I came here as a missionary to you I didn't know

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Christians I thought you hated me everything I ever learned about American Christianity I learned in the mosque from my imam or from my madrasa my training center and so every other place

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I'd ever lived I lived there as a as a majority person I always lived in the majority Islamic countries then

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I come to America can I just stop right there Sweden is not a majority

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Islamic country and he lived in Sweden why say that why say that I don't

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I don't understand it that's one of the reasons I've asked the question when did he live in Turkey he was not born in Turkey his mother is

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Swedish were his brothers born in Turkey these are questions that I think need to be answered and I hope they they will be but we haven't gotten to the whole point yet my father was a

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Moiseen I'm the oldest of three sons to his wife this one wife he had many wives had many wives many wives

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I came as a faithful and devout Muslim every debate I've ever had

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Muslim oh you do not understand Islam oh you need to understand the

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Arabic let's dance that was my language before English catch that that was my language before English Arabic was my language before English so this is just last year

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November last year is when this aired so I'm not sure when this was recorded last year

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February 25th 2010 his statement posted on his website just brought it up as for the countless other volleys aimed at discrediting the work

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I do I'm unsure how to respond if my pronunciation of Arabic phrases is not correct then

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I apologize the language of my lineage is Turkish not Arabic which is the truth what he just said to this audience which was in what context my debates which don't happen with Muslims oh but Arabic's my first language

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Arabic's not my first language which one is it I have a feeling it's what he types when he doesn't have an audience in front of him clapping and a many and hanging on his every word

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I think it's what's in his statement but you get him from an audience and he loses control he's got to keep that audience excited he's got to inflate things and that's what happens

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I didn't make this stuff up folks you can go online now and find a Turgeon fan posted on his website on his blog entire list of stuff he's good at digging stuff out of the internet and you can go listen for yourself you don't have to you don't have to depend upon mr.

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Kahn's stuff I think we now have everything mr. Kahn has you don't have to and since we have found it on the internet and it's exactly as mr.

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Kahn has posted it he's there he wasn't changing anything you didn't have to he hasn't even gotten all this stuff yet it's right there the question is are the folks

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Liberty University going to deal with the problem that they have that's the only question that exists yes sir you know it strikes me that if if I understand what's really going on that he's calling a debate we call it witnessing yeah we call it talking to folks so if those are debates and you think about how many people that you've talked to over the years in Mesa and in Salt Lake City thousands thousands of thousands thousands thousand thousand thousands oh yeah easy but you see you're not going to get folks to come to your seminary that you're the president of and the head of the global apologetics thing when you say you know what

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I've had conversations with people in hallways all over the place because you know what there's a lot of people that come to that seminary who've done the same thing that doesn't make you an expert doesn't mean you have necessarily anything to provide to them in the way of of superior knowledge in -depth knowledge the whole point was

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I was a devout Muslim that's what he's got to establish in people's minds and he uses

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Arabic sounding names whether it's the names of groups Sunni Shia Wahhabi Druze said people people go

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I've never heard of those things hot if he knows those words that's great but for some odd reason in that one evangelism conference he decided to drop them and go

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Shabir Ali neither Ahmed Abdul Salim and he's got to know when he's doing that he's you can't tell me he didn't know when he said oh boy

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I tried to say Sunni and Shia and instead I said Shabir Ali I'm sorry doesn't work

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I know he says he has a problem with the clutch between his brain his mouth but that is determining what you're when you're gonna say speak and not speak not what you say that's the problem all right eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number let's let's get to some phone calls and Skype dividing dot line remember that will not show up as active unless we've changed that it does show up as active now oh okay never mind me

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I didn't get the memo it will show up as active now dividing dot line is the is the well whatever hey we're new to some of this technology what can

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I say and the phone number is seven seven five three three three four one let's talk with Elijah hello

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Elijah hi yes my question first of all thank you for having me on my question is regarding Ezekiel 33 11 and 1823

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I know you addressed this in your response to Brian Broderston's response on on this and my question was is this text talking about God's universal love and desire for all the wicked to come in the one aspect of his will to repentance or is it or is it just talking about God being diabolical and not desiring not taking pleasure in the death of the wicked well a couple things there's an excellent article and maybe someone in channel could give me the

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URL because it's difficult to talk and search Google all the same time but I think about a year and a half ago approximately fellow bloggers turrets and fan wrote an extensive blog article on his site

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I'm not sure if you've seen his site but it's well worth putting in your RSS feeds if you have not done that on this exact issue and the specific context in Ezekiel that was the the proverb that the people of Israel were throwing at Ezekiel and the proverb was our fathers have eaten the sour grapes and our teeth are set on edge and the whole point of the proverb was look there's no reason for us to do what you're telling us to do there's no reason for us to even listen to your preaching or repent or anything else because all this is coming upon us because of what our fathers did and so we're not gonna listen to your call to repent because it doesn't matter it's a it's sort of like if you've heard people using the terminology of generational curses and things like that there it is

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Chris thank you very much for bringing it up if you go to turrets and fan blogspot .com

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if you'll go to April of 2008 April 26th of 2008 this is specifically in regards to Ezekiel 18 the same thing

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I think would apply in Ezekiel 33 as well the response that is being given by God is to emphasize the fact that while there is an effect that could be called generational

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I mean obviously if if the preceding generation before ours squanders our wealth and engages in gross immorality and breaks the marriage covenant and allows for homosexuality and that's going to impact my generation and and and me obviously that's true however

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I could never take it as an excuse to say hey look I don't have to repent it would do me no good because everything is coming upon me is just due to what happened to my parents so that is the background of one of the objections that Ezekiel is dealing with and so first of all

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God lays out know the soul that sins will die and I do not take joy in the death of the wicked as if the way they were putting it was being a

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God God has put us in a box we can't get out there's no reason for us to respond to his command to repent or anything like that he is taking joy in doing this to us that's the first thing secondly if we look at Ezekiel 33 and we have the wicked if I say the wicked

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Oh wicked one you shall surely die and you do not turn to warn the wicked to turn from his way that wicked person shall die in his iniquity but his blood

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I will require at your hand but if you warn the wicked to turn from his way and he does not turn from his way that person shall die in his iniquity but you will be delivered you will have delivered your soul that's at the beginning of chapter 33 you still there oh well hopefully he will get to listen

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I wonder what happened there it sounded that sound like it came from his end not our end that he may

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I may have had the poor guy on hold so long his cell phone battery died that is one of the problems in our modern technology but hopefully

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Elijah you're still listening or will be able to listen as I as I conclude this but I continue with Ezekiel 33 verse 10 and you son of man say the house of Israel thus have you said surely our transgressions and our sins are upon us and we rot away because of them how then can we live say to them as I live declares the

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Lord God I have no pleasure in the death of wicked but that the wicked turn from his way and live turn back turn back from evil ways for why will you die

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Oh house of Israel so notice what the context is the context is not some overarching claim that God has decreed his own unhappiness because that's what a lot of people want to say if there is a decree of God that includes the specific identity of the elect and hence the specific identity of those who are going to receive justice from God well then that must contradict this and therefore there cannot be any election at all that's the utilization of this text that's what people want to make it say but verse 11 is notice what says say to them to who to the people who had just spoken and what had they said thus have you said here's here's what the people are saying surely our transgressions and our sins and upon us and we rot away because of them how then can we live there's no salvation there's no help we don't believe the promise of God that if we repent we will live all is hopeless it's all it's all over with not gonna listen and God says no as I live

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Lord God declares I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked but to the wicked turn from his way and live turn back turn back from evil ways for why will you die

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Oh house of Israel now who did this who responded this is this is where people miss the boat as they say see

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I'm either going to believe in a God who has no plan has no decree and is eternally bummed about what has happened eternally unhappy weeping for eternity at the gates of hell oh

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I'm sorry I didn't mean to do this is is that really what you get from the Bible I mean I know there are some modern theologians ago there but I don't know too many people who just read the

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Bible and actually believe it's God to go yep God's gonna be eternally bummed he's gonna be you know he's never gonna have fullness of joy and himself and and he's gonna be very unhappy that's not what the

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New Testament that's not what the Bible presents as to the end of God's intentions but is that what this text is talking about is that saying that there is in the judgment of the evil in eternity to come

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God will not be glorified in that when we stand before the throne of God will we find that there's something wrong that we have this standing with God this wonderful place that we now get to exist in but we know that there are others that do not will we be unhappy and if you know loved ones who have died outside of Christ are you going to be in essence eternally bummed disappointed saddened will tears flow from your eyes even though God would wipe them dry who was it the responded to the call the

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Prophet in the Old Testament who was it stand back from your traditions long enough to just think about it for a moment it's the same group for whom the sacrifice was efficacious those who drew near to worship who were they you know who it is in Ezekiel you know who it is in Jeremiah the remnant the remnant the remnant need to hear these words the remnant need to be assured of God's love and God's mercy and God's acceptance the remnant were not sinless people the remnant to hear these words they heard they believed but what was the effect of these words upon those that are not in the remnant do they ever turn do they ever listen they ever obey and who creates the remnant there's only two answers that question you can either be a humanist and say that the is made up of those with softer hearts they're more spiritually sensitive they're better in some way than anyone else or you can recognize the remnant is a remnant of grace a remnant that God himself keeps for his own purposes to vindicate his holy name a remnant that then becomes the pattern upon which we see the elect and that it's never ever been never has it ever been that God's salvation was dependent upon the goodness the betterness of those who receive his mercy never it's always been a matter of grace always been a matter of grace so don't get the idea is what

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Ezekiel is saying is that God is a God who does not have mercy a

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God who has shut the door to everyone but the same time don't turn that into some statement that says that God's justice does not glorify him because it does and it will and when we stand in glory someday we will not stand in disappointment we will not stand in unhappiness we will worship

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God as he is and we will glorify his justice his holiness those who have no concern about their own personal holiness are not going to have any concern whatsoever about God's and it does concern me greatly that there are very very many believers today who have no concern about the holiness of God they have no concern about God's power being proclaimed amongst the nations they can read those words in Romans 9 and they just go

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I don't get it why would God be like that because they have been introduced only to a

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God who is basically just a big grandpa in the sky his transcendence his holiness there are many people say

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I see you Calvinist you have a remote God and I say to you you will never ever understand the condescension of God the love of God the mercy and grace of God unless you listen to the biblical presentation with which starts with the holiness and transcendence and creatorship of God what makes his grace and his mercy and his compassion so amazing is that he is who he is he is the

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Holy God he is separate from sinners he is completely other and that's what makes it so amazing that he would condescend enter into his own creation is because he's so holy don't start where the

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Bible doesn't start and then try to fit the rest of it in it won't fit it won't fit so anyways thank you

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Elijah for the call I haven't seen a lot in Twitter today normally there's a flood of stuff but it's

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Monday and a lot of people just you know they're at work and they're gonna get home this evening and read their RSS feeds and go whoa there is a dividing line today

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I didn't know and so I wasn't able to participate I realize that there is some danger in covering the two subjects that I covered today because people have been falsely stating that it's because of what happened in 2006 that I have been seeking to get

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Ergon Kanner to be honest about his background this history and let me just say once again my primary motivation here is very easily discerned when someone comes into the field that you seek to diligently labor in with as much integrity as you can possibly muster claims to do what you do but you know he doesn't do it at all claims to have debated people that you've debated but they've never met him claims knowledge that you have had to work to gain so as to seek to glorify

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Christ by handling this information in the best way that you can learning the

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Quran learning the Hadith even the fact that the canners as a as both individuals talk about well hadith 957 there is no hadith 957 it's

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Sahih al -Bukhari for crying out loud there's all sorts of you've got Jamiat Termini you've got

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Muslim you've got Bukhari you've got to tell people where to find this stuff otherwise you're just expecting them to believe you

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I have spent so much time and so much effort to try to do this with integrity

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I'm not perfect I make mistakes I'm still learning but I don't sit here and claim to be a former devout

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Muslim that makes the difference when someone comes into the field that I'm working in making these claims that I know are untrue

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I must point these things out if I'm going to have any integrity whatsoever that's why

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I have to talk about these things well folks thanks a lot for listening today on this Monday heading for Greenville Presbyterian Seminary be there

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Tuesday through Thursday and then in Leavenworth Kansas over the weekend friends in those areas looking forward to seeing you thanks for listening we'll talk to you again

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Lord willing next Thursday here on the dividing line God bless the dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at P .O.

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Box 37106 Phoenix Arizona 85069 you can also find us on the world wide web at AOMIN .org

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that's A -O -M -I -N dot O -R -G where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks join us again next morning at 11 a .m.