October 13, 2005

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three-four-one. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Reviewing Shabbir Ali’s Opening Statement on the Bible and the Quran

Well, good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday evening. We continue the series that we began Tuesday morning. We are reviewing a debate which took place about five years ago now between Shabbir Ali one of the preeminent Islamic apologists at least in English-speaking nations against Sam Shamoon a good friend of the ministry here on the subject of the Bible and The Quran and so we continue with that.

We're about 20 26 minutes. I believe into the Entirety of the debate if you want to there is a link by the way. There is a link on our website to the entirety of the debate if you want to sort of Listen ahead in essence catch everything.

Have some some background to what's what's going on. You can download and listen to the debate in mp3 format. I don't know how anyone survives today without mp3s, but there are still a few who are struggling along those lines.

But be that as it may they are available to you there is a link on The website where you can track down the very same debate without my constant interruptions if if that bothers you. But that's the whole.

That's the whole reason we're doing this of course is to provide a fuller response to the claims that are made by Shabbir Ali. Listening to many of his other debates. These are common claims That are made by not just himself, but then they are picked up by others and repeated somewhat ad nauseam.

And those of you who have listened to the John dominant cross and debate will hear Many of the same elements there are differences there there are differences. But we'll hear many of the same elements especially in regards to the alleged corruption of the Christian Scriptures in a very very early period of time Etc etc so we pick up 26 minutes and 30.

I'm starting at 31 seconds. I had 33 in my notes. But we'll get two seconds of context there 26 minutes into the first of the three mp3s. And so we continue now we are in Shabbir Ali's opening statement.

Now of course The argument being made there is that if someone can be confused about a text it must not be the Word of God. Which of course would would invalidate anything because a vast majority of Christians are extremely confused by the text of the Quran.

I I would argue that it is Significantly harder to understand the Quran that it is the Bible. The Bible has a historical background. It provides a historical context of the vast majority of its text. You know something about its authors and where they lived and and the time frame and there's some chronological order.

Though the the very form of the Quran precludes that kind of historical material. And if you will pick up books by Muslims on the background of the Quran. They are frequently talking about the fact that well You know we don't we sort of figure that this is one of this this one was relevant to Medina or this one to Mecca or There there seems to be a part of this here and a part of that there.

But you know it doesn't say so we're not really sure we don't have the and in fact the the without the hadith. You can't make heads or tails out of entire sections of the Quran and so if that is a criteria Then I would argue that it is significantly easier to understand the Gospel of Mark Than it is almost any section of the Quran.

You can place Mark and Luke in a historical background. You've got the Romans you've got the Jews. You've got you've got landmarks. You've got you've got a way of contextualizing this and and any text is going to be only as clear as the Context in which you can place it.

That's that's why if you want to write something unclear if you want to you know feed on people's conspiracy theories. You don't want to be held accountable for what you're saying. Then you write a text that has no connections like that and we could talk about somehow some of this is rather interesting in trying to connect it to the Book of Mormon and and Very sundry elements like that there is interesting keep seeing these parallels as they keep popping up.

But as it may that's that's not a a meaningful criteria that Shabir Ali has just has just indicated. Now you might want to actually at a couple points Be aware of the fact that in the midst of this debate a discussion of certain language in the book of Ezekiel that makes reference to genitalia comes up in this debate and Mr.. Ali who does not have a biblical Hamarty ology a biblical doctrine of sin and the fall of man Finds it extremely offensive and in fact in his opinion Gratuitous.

That the Bible makes reference to the idolatry of Israel in Very graphic terms. Of course the idolatry at Israel was involved with was in fact very graphic. The what took place in in the groves the Asherim the high places that are mentioned over and over and over again the Old Testament Temple prostitution was not done behind closed doors it was out in.

The.

Open and When the prophets use language that these people would fully understand they're involved in horrific Idolatrous practices. Mr.. Ali says this is gratuitous. I reject his assertion that this is gratuitous In any way shape or form he just doesn't understand how serious Idolatry is and what God is doing in his ego the funny thing is however is That it is very clear.

And I would love to see Shabir Ali try to try to prove this that the scriptures that existed at the time of Christ Included all the things that he rejects is the Word of God That's from Ezekiel. We know what the text of Ezekiel looked like in the days of Christ did Christ correct that.

Instead you have citations from Ezekiel. You don't have anyone rejecting. I'd say that's not the Word of God. You don't have that happening and so even the the Torah That Muhammad would have been familiar with and that the Quran speaks So highly of would have included those very same things and so I would submit That Shabir Ali is setting himself up as an authority beyond the Quran and beyond Muhammad in Making these kind of statements Muhammad never never rejected Ezekiel.

You don't have a statement from him. Ezekiel's not the Word of God. This is a an assertion on Shabir Ali's part that this simply doesn't make sense historically. That the Quran would say the things it does about the the Torah and the Injil.

Given the the textual history and for some reason the fact that you know Islam comes along over half a millennium after the canon scriptures been closed after everything's been written and All of a sudden we're gonna start changing things around saying ours is the authentic version Requires a significantly higher standard of proof than Shabir Ali is ever willing to to offer.

I Just realized I Okay, my apologies my apologies mucho apologies here for some odd reason the The system opened up the second of the two instead of the first the two and put it above the first the two I don't know why shouldn't have done that and Ironically that was smack dab in the middle of pretty much the same material.

We were looking at so we're gonna hit that one again. I Apologize no that was completely unintentional on my part and since the Recording quality is the same and Shabir Ali was speaking on the same subject the same point.

I That's 26 minutes and 31 seconds into the second mp3 my apologies now We'll go to 26 minutes 31 seconds into the first of them. And I was wondering how in the world they got questions in there that that quickly it wasn't supposed to do that.

So I apologize very much. Let's go back to where we were. That is where we were because I had made the comment that to recognize that Solomon Toward the end of his life engaged in idolatry is to learn a tremendous lesson.

I mean here is a man who is given everything in fact. He was given. He was given wisdom from God. But over time if you do not remain focused upon your spiritual life even to someone like Solomon this can take place.

So we can learn things from this. Mr.. Ali takes a completely different perspective and says well Why should I read a book that was written by an adulterer. Solomon was not an adulterer when he wrote the book I?

Mean that there's just no logic to that Nebuchadnezzar says true things in Daniel chapter 4 he says very true things, but he was a pagan Does that mean that the things he said were not true? Again, there's just no logical reason to to take this this kind of a perspective and to run with it the way that he does.

Now notice that terminology have been cleaned up.

Assumption corruption of the biblical text which the Quran itself if we listen to Sam's presentation. The Quran itself is not making that assertion. This is a much more modern Islamic apologetic assertion and It then requires some kind of substantiation outside of just simply quoting liberal scholars as if somehow.

That.

You know proves your point somewhere along the lines, but notice that terminology cleaning up. Well, what needs to be cleaned up? Well only that which a Muslim might miss the point of evidently such as the example of Solomon is given.

Okay, here's going to be a Consistent assertion on the part of mr.. Ali. Evidently if a word is to be from God then it must be something you don't have to explain to kids. There can be no clear representation of the actual depth of the sin of man.

There can be none of those troubling sections in the Old Testament where people do things that would just absolutely shock us. Now of course you know we look around today, and and who are doing things that that absolutely shock us.

You know people walking into crowded restaurants the backpacks on and blowing themselves up or or Slowly sawing people's heads off on video who's doing those things today? Oh those are Muslims doing those things day.

Yes, okay? That kind of stuff happens man is sinful and The Bible is honest about the sinfulness of man and when it has a point to make when it has a warning to give. Then it is very clear in doing that and do you have to explain parts of the Bible are there parts the Bible you wouldn't Necessarily want to read to a seven-year-old before you've had an in-depth discussion of the birds and the bees.

You better believe it does that mean it's not the Word of God. Well only if you think the Word of God Can only be on a kindergarten level that's the only way you can come up with that kind of a conclusion.

There's just no logical or rational reason to believe that. Do you have to explain what happened with what with it with the fact that his daughters? Though they were rescued from Sodom and Gomorrah were obviously not regenerate individuals.

That sometimes non regenerate individuals benefit from God's mercy. Isn't that part and parcel of what ends up you know? Being a being a part of the warnings of Scripture. Most definitely do you have to explain that most definitely that means not the Word of God.

Most definitely not. There's no basis. No ground that has been offered to us by mr.. Ali to even begin to accept that kind of argumentation. It's just thrown out there as if well if you have to explain to your kids, then it must not be the Word of God.

Sorry that does not follow. Why why assume that since the Quran seems to? Give either just a know of all that stuff and then ignore it. You know I mean it doesn't have to retell a story. You don't have to tell every single part of it, okay?

I'm not I'm not faulting the Quran for not including every bit of information all right. That's one thing. But let's say that there's a purpose behind it. Let's say that Muhammad didn't like the story didn't like the rest of the story in regards to lot.

What does that mean how does that make that pure isn't the real issue wouldn't the the proper? Discussion have to be focused upon really first and foremost what was originally written. What was the text of the book of Genesis 100 years before the time of Christ what was the book of the text of Genesis a hundred years before Muhammad and.

Can you prove this alleged change? See Muslims just simply begin with the assumption that this last quote-unquote revelation is The final word and therefore anything that comes before it is to be corrected by it.

That is the functional Methodology behind that particular Kind of mindset, and it'll come up over and over again in the discussion. Now Jeremiah 8 8 How can you say we are wise and the law and the law of the Lord is with us.

But behold the lying pan the scribes has made it into a lie. Now notice he uses the term has falsified it. Has made it a deception a falsehood the the Secretaries the scribes have falsified it now. What does that mean?

Does that mean that the the the Torah that Josiah received was not the Torah? That it did not exist any longer. They had been corrupted or Do you continue the context the wise men shall be put to shame?

They shall be dismayed and taken behold they have rejected The word the Lord so that wisdom is in them. Therefore I will give their wives to others and their fields to conquerors because from the least of the greatest everyone is greedy for unjust Gain from prophet the priest everyone deals falsely.

Etc. Etc. Etc. So what is actually being discussed here? Is this somehow a an assertion that they have been able to corrupt the Torah so that no longer is? Available or Is this the same kind of condemnation that we find throughout Matthew chapter 23?

That though they possess the law of God though they possess the scriptures they nullify them. They make them of no account for the sake of their traditions for the sake of their disobedience. They have as the very next verse says The wise men shall be put to shame they shall be dismayed and taken behold.

They have rejected Rejected the word of the Lord. Rejected the word of the Lord not altered so no one knows what it is. They know what it is, but they've rejected it. They have turned it into a lie. They who were supposed to be the ones who teach The Word of God they have turned it into a lie.

How have they turned it into a lie? They've turned it into a lie by the means of course of Their behavior by the means of their teaching etc. Etc.

Now make sure you understand here. What are you saying?

Parts of it are not the Word of God. Well what parts whatever parts disagree with with me the parts that disagree with the Quran. Where have we heard this before. It is just amazing to me To listen to this and I cannot help and it's.

I'm not saying that there's 100 corollary anything like that I'm just simply saying that over and over again. I go man. This is exactly what you encounter with Mormons. When you you know I've told the story before.

When.

Years and years ago during the Easter pageant the Mormon Church in in Mesa I was talking to a Mormon lady over in the parking lot of the Arby's restaurant there next to the sidewalk and and I said I went through a number of passages.

I quoted Isaiah 43 10 and and 45 5 to 6 and 44 24 and and all these passages about the fact There's only one true. God is there a God besides me a there is no God. I know not any etc. Etc. And I went through all this and she just listened quietly.

She didn't say anything and She didn't argue either and so finally I stopped and I'm like so What does that mean? Do you have any comment? She said well all those verses are mistranslated and I said they're mistranslated.

Do you do you read Hebrew? No, I don't read I don't read Hebrew. Have you read any books about Hebrew that would lead you to say mistranslate? No, I'm not ready books about that. Well, how you know, they're mistranslate because they disagree with what the church teaches you know, there's your ultimate authority coming into into direct and clear play and on that level leading you to Make a conclusion for which you have absolutely Positively no Historical evidence none.

It's just simply an open statement that says, you know, what my ultimate authority says this and.

Therefore if.

Your ultimate authority disagrees my ultimate authority then your ultimate authority has been corrupted and that way you can still say you believe in some of Genesis. Just not all of Genesis. See that's how it functions lots of interesting parallels here.

Wholly absent from the Bible you've got to be kidding me Shabir Ali does not understand the moral teaching of Noah in the Bible in regards to their sin and their debauchery and the fact that what they are doing is displeasing in the sight of God.

I At that point it would be very difficult even if the Even if the camera was right on me to keep from just looking at him With with the most amazed look on my face because that's I'm sorry. That's just simply a ridiculous statement.

Now where have you heard this before. What if if you have if you have spent almost any time at all? Scanning through, you know, I remember years and years ago when I first encountered the the publication biblical errancy by Dennis McKinsey an atheist and Almost every single Atheist Publication I have ever encountered one of the very first things that they try to Pull up is well see.

You know God God. You've got these contradictions because God doesn't change his mind. But this says that God changed his mind and blah blah blah blah. And I'm like here we go again right back to the same old same old stuff and you would think I don't know.

Maybe I'm being silly here, but I would think you know, I I hear Shabir Ali Quoting the Quran in Arabic. Okay, that's a good thing to be able to do. So that would imply some knowledge of Semitic languages and That would provide some means.

I Would assume I mean the man has a bachelor's degree in comparative religions. He's not gone beyond that but he calls himself self-taught. That would mean certainly the information about what Naham means Would be available to him in some context.

And.

He would be able to look into.

What.

Azav means and he'd be able to look into these words and he'd be able to Understand what grieving is and what repentance is when applied to God and and he would at least Honestly face the reality that God is presented in the scriptures as Interacting with his people and that the sin of mankind is not presented as something that leaves him unmoved.

But he doesn't do that. He doesn't go beyond the basic atheist level attack of the scriptures. I Would think that that would be simple for him to do. I would think that the material would be available to him to look at those things and to go.

Well, okay. You know if I follow this term Through the scriptures and and I I look at how it applies to God and I look at how God Responds to the sinfulness of mankind and and all the rest of these things.

You know.

There actually is a way of seeing how that fits in with with the greatness of the Sacrifice that is given in Christ. And I look at the story of Abraham and Isaac and well, okay there's there's more to it here than meets the eye, but that's not what you get and.

Again.

Isn't he gonna have to do very similar things in regards to the Quran. So it's this this Inconsistency this utilization of different standards that comes up over and over and over and over and over again.

In the course of this debate. Wow.

God never had any grandsons. Well, you know that completely ignores what the discussion of sons of God in Genesis 6 means. There's all sorts of different possibilities. It's not the easiest text in the world, but at least you know, you don't approach difficult texts in a simplistic manner like this.

This is not talking about God's grandsons as if God is some pagan God out there having a literal offspring and. Of course in reality Genesis 6 5 got skipped somehow. I mean, I'm sure it was just an oversight Which says.

And the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth and that every intent of the thoughts of His heart was only evil continually and that's what brings about the flood and that is contradictory to Shabir Ali's view of sin and man and.

That is why Shabir Ali is misrepresenting the Bible in his attempts to attack The Bible but in the course in the process you get to excite all the Muslims in the audience By testifying that there is only one God Allah and so on and so forth.

We'll continue with our review of Shabir Ali's opening statement, and we're gonna take a break be right back right after this.

Commercial Break

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Returning to the Debate and Sam Shamoon’s Analysis

And welcome back to the dividing line we are listening to Shabir Ali's opening statement He was just talking about to God's grandkids in Yet another gross misreading of the biblical text. Let's continue on.

Excuse me. No, sir, that's quite simply just your ignorance of Language I mean Again, this kind of level of argumentation. Well, you know the imagery that might give to someone. Well, you know I could I could there's all sorts of imagery in the Quran that I could say.

Well, that's offensive to me that might communicate something to me that I find contradictory. So I reject Quran that's this this is not meaningful argumentation and To say that Luke's language is very careful.

Luke is a physician. There's nothing in any way shape or form to substantiate that kind of assertion. That's just you know, I don't know if maybe just the people that he's debated in the past Just don't have the the guts to stand up and say that's dumb.

But that's dumb that's that there's just absolutely no Reasoning behind that whatsoever. There's no question. We're talking about the beginning of human life. But we're talking about the Holy Spirit overshadowing look at look at the background of that language.

That's that has nothing to do with some gross physicality.

Again, just just ridiculous. Who cares?

Who cares? Many people have gained images from the Quran that you would reject. What is the only thing that matters what the text meant in its original language in its original context? I don't care how someone might misunderstand that is irrelevant to the nth degree there are many ignorant people in the world and You cannot keep you cannot change the Word of God or reject the Word of God based upon Ignorant people you just can't do that.

I Mean would Shabir Ali if I were to start digging through the Quran and say oh look at this this suggests this to me. Would he find that to be meaningful argumentation? I would certainly hope not. In other words since the Quran is simplistic since the Quran does not communicate with the level of Information the Bible does well that must be the Word of God because we don't want to have anything we have to explain now.

We want to be so direct so plain that there could be no questions. There could be no confusion that evidently is what makes something the Word of God. And you know when you read the hadith that actually isn't a bad observation.

Because what the hadith do is they tell you how to live your life a Step by step. This is how you do everything it's not a matter of developing a heart of wisdom and godliness and then applying it to different situations and That folks is why Islam is not a religion for all peoples.

That's why when Islam comes into a nation it has to destroy that which came before it and make it an Islamic Nation whereas the gospel is a message for all nations. Because a heart of wisdom and godliness can exist within numerous different Cultures see the difference.

That's a major difference and a very important difference. And I would argue that is a difference that demonstrates that one is the Word of God and one clearly is not. Tell us what that means. It means that Jesus was truly God and truly man and that his conception was not the result of physical Action from a fallen human male.

What's difficult about that if the Holy Spirit can create life you are you telling me? He cannot conceive life in the womb of a woman without physicality and sexuality. Is is that is that what is actually being suggested here, I would certainly hope not but it certainly sounds like it.

Now you see you got to understand what is behind all this. What is behind all this is the assumption and if you've seen the the debate with the hamsa abdu malik. It came up over and over again there, too.

The assumption is god Cannot even if god created this universe the god of islam cannot enter into his own creation cannot be done impossible can't be done. Can't be done. God may have created god can't enter it.

Once he made it Incarnation can't happen. Uh, that's just a given. And so when the bible actually describes that tremendous and unique event well We we just can't understand that we just can't understand that and so we reject That and that's what you see going on here.

So for shabir ali confirm actually means to change alter or to fix corruptions. That's What allegedly the the term is actually referring to? Now let's make sure sam began by asserting that there is only one true triune god.

And if again if you watch the debate with hamsa abdu malik, you'll know that one of the great frustrations. One of the great frustrations that you face in dealing with muslims is that muslims cannot allow christians to define christian faith.

They cannot allow christians to define christian faith because the quran And muhammad misunderstood the christian faith now, there's various reasons for that. And any introductory text in the subject of islam will tell you that.

The.

Sources from which muhammad would draw for his understanding of christianity would have included a number of religious groups that Shall we say would be heretical from a modern perspective and in fact from even an ancient perspective.

There were all sorts of down in the arabic peninsula all sorts of influences monophysitism nestorianism and without getting into a.

A.

A big.

You know argument about well did nestorius actually believe what later nestorians did. Evidently I don't think he did but be it as it may all of that stuff aside there were clearly Individuals that he would have had contact with that would not have been.

Uh.

Capable of communicating an orthodox soundly biblical perspective now if the quran is.

What.

The islamic religion claims it to be the very words of muhammad. I'm sorry the very words of allah.

Uh.

Then you would think that at least allah would understand what christians believe about the trinity. You would think there would at least be an accurate representation of the doctrine of the trinity, but there is not very clearly.

There is there's tremendous misunderstanding of what the doctrine of trinity is and and even at that the term trinity and. Some translations the quran use the term trinity. But actually it's just the word for three.

And.

That three seems to be allah jesus and mary. And maybe there were even some Wild-eyed People that muhammad had run into that worshiped God jesus and mary. I I don't know. How are we supposed to know that.

But be as it may There is clear misrepresentation. And you either have to conclude that the quran is is only condemning A certain sect of christianity or it just doesn't understand the doctrine of trinity at all one of the two.

So that's what you have to deal with in in regards to how the quran represents.

Uh.

What we're dealing with and so. When we try to find the trinity Muslims will always default back to.

The.

Perspectives.

Of the quran.

And so if you watch that debate I can sit there and repeat myself over and over again. There is only one true god. Trinitarianism is monotheistic. The negation of monotheism is not trinitarianism. The negation of monotheism is polytheism.

The negation of trinitarianism is what? Unitarianism. And so to say that god is one.

As.

Islam does and as unitarians do is a different issue. Now. We're talking about persons not beings. You can see why you actually have to understand the doctrine of trinity to be able to dialogue on these subjects and so.

It's frustrating because they'll keep Defaulting back. The bible all across says that there's only one true god. Amen. We agree.

No.

Question about it. Well, I would very much like that.

Ha ha ha.

Let me let me get the quran out of the way here. Did I get somebody all fired up? Maybe I wasn't expecting this but um, i'm very thankful to be able to punch a button here. And hopefully talk to a familiar voice.

Sam shamoon. Hi sam. Hey brother. Uh, brother white. How you doing? Dr. White? I'm doing good. Have you been listening in at all? I yeah, I just came in the midst of it. I was. I wish I was here from the start I would have called but You I was.

Where were you five years ago.

I was debating hamza al-dumalik five years ago actually, so uh, yeah, you're doing a great job turning this guy up. Well. You know as I listened and I mentioned my email to you as I listened. Uh to this saturday morning.

Um, how close was. Let me just ask you some questions. How close was the audience to you?

Uh, there are maybe what um 10 feet away from us. The first two rows were full of uh, these oversized middle eastern christians. Uh, and that's why if you remember in his opening statements, he said I see a lot of leery eyes.

Yes, he did because the first two rows were full of my buddies and these all you know bodybuilding freaks. They were just looking at him like they're about to you know, have them for lunch.

I've been in situations like that. Uh, i've been in situations where I was. I was the only protestant in a room full of catholics actually, so.

So now.

I was listening to this stuff and I knew I I could not help but thinking over and over again boy Sam finally understands the frustration. That happens in a debate when your time frame is half the time frame of the preceding guy.