Augustine, Origen, and Other Patristic Stuff

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white And good morning, welcome to the dividing line Tuesday morning already the 12th of February my goodness didn't have to put a leather jacket on to ride my motorcycle in this morning

Just put a windbreaker on and that was all I needed because it was already over 60 degrees

Yeah, it's getting warm. I didn't even have to put a jacket on to go into your office. I Know it's terrible

It's terrible. I can't get it into the upper 50s in there anymore, man

It only lasted a few weeks to it's it III think

I'd actually enjoy sitting there so I could see my breath, you know Hey When you live in Phoenix, man, you'd you take what you can get you you gotta you gotta get the heat off for a while Or or you'll just boil anyway,

I I Realize we have different Kinds of not only listeners to the buying line, but especially folks who hit the blog

You've got online folks who are you know using RSS readers and you know

They want it. They want to see the videos as soon as they're posted. So they're hitting my youtube page and all the rest of stuff those of you who see the

YouTube page, but then see the blog realize I'm Not posting stuff in the blog nearly as fast as I'm posting stuff on the

YouTube page In fact, I think of as of last night. I have at least one video out to March 7th

And that's like at least three a week. And one of the reasons for that is there are other people who come to the blog

They don't have time to be watching a full -length video every day. Even if I had time to produce a full -length video every day and so And then and there's other people who do not hit it every day

And then when they do hit it They feel like they've got to play all this catch -up and they gotta choose which ones are gonna watch stuff like that So, you know for the for the online people who are really big into You know want to know exactly what's going on right now they can use the

YouTube page link and and you see this stuff as soon as it comes up and and fine Just be aware of the fact that you might end up seeing that appear on the blog a month later a couple of them

I put up last night yesterday actually Will will be almost a month down the road before they appear and that's fine that's that's just how it works and so those who

Do not follow the YouTube page you're not to be fully familiar with some of the interaction

I've had or attempted to have with a Certain Catholic apologist who almost a year ago had posted a video

Standing in front of a white wall with some cellophane stuff in front of the camera Not really sure what that was all about.

But I had started posting Stuff on YouTube.

I initially signed up to YouTube to post the video of our thief That was the whole idea behind it was to post a video of our thief

So people could see that's still up there by the way if anyone would like to very first one there if you want to take a look at the

The man who's broken into our offices twice There's there is y 'all keep an eye out for him

Smile when you you know, he waves the camera and stuff anyway, and then I Started going, you know,

I Could throw portions of debates up and things like that and all

I was doing I wasn't producing new videos where I'm sitting there talking or I'm addressing thing. I was just putting them up as part of the blog

The context would be provided by the blog and I really you know, I didn't do anything with my

YouTube channel I didn't know I had YouTube channel until one of our channel rats by the name of Lane told me that I did

Then I started like that. Oh, well, I could make that a lot prettier. And so I you know did that and so I Had started to put portions of debates up to address particular issues that I was talking about in the blog or whatever

Well, he took exception that I wasn't posting the entire debate as if that was something I would be under some type of compulsion to do

We make these debates available and and If you post the whole debate then, you know, that's sort of defeating the purpose a little bit as far as that goes but anyway, so He had thrown this stuff up and and in the process

He was saying that I didn't want you to Hear I didn't want to hear these quotations from the lips of Robertson Jennison And I didn't want to do this and I didn't want to do that I didn't want you to hear these things and this is what

I'm hiding from you and blah blah blah blah. So I started to respond to that because it's a

It's educational to understand the mindset of people people will call this program all the time. They go

Hey, I'm gonna be meeting with a Jehovah's Witness or I'm gonna be meeting with a Mormon. Give me some verses

It doesn't work. Sorry folks, you know I mean there might be some people who would actually respond to that and say well quote this this and this

I'm sorry but I'm setting you up for a Crash and burn if I do something like that because Not only are not all

Jehovah's Witnesses the same and not all Mormons the same and so on and so forth You have to learn to listen and figure out where somebody's coming from and stuff like that But there's also getting to know the mindset of people

A lot of folks are called a program to go they in essence expect that I can give them a magic bullet that's going to work with everybody and it's going to answer all the questions and The fact matter is there there isn't any such creature it just doesn't work that way and You have to know something about the mindset of people and there are some

Roman Catholic apologists and I we may be looking at one and in this particular fellow that I've been responding to It doesn't matter what you say

It doesn't matter how clear you are. It doesn't matter how fair you are. You can lay out all sorts of things like well look

There's certain ways that you interpret ancient documents ancient writings is a thing called context and and there is a direct parallel in in my experience between this fellow whose name is

William and the Muslims that we've talked to both have this set of glasses surgically attached to their faces and They cannot

Outside of the supernatural work of the Spirit of God remove those glasses from their face when they look back in time they they absolutely insist upon inserting back into the ancient context their own beliefs and this drives people nuts when they're trying to talk to a

Muslim and You know, you can see it even in folks like like Shabir Ali when

I ask him. Okay What can we know is inspired in New Testament? What mechanism can we use? Well, if it agrees the

Quran, it's inspired. Well You know and that makes sense to them given they're starting presuppositions and to us we go.

Wait a minute. You're How do you're supposed to debate this because you're starting at the wrong place.

You're starting with your case already made You're not making your case. You're starting with the assumption that your case is already made.

How do you deal with that? And the same thing happens here. I was just looking at One of Williams blah videos and There was some guy who left a nasty note to him and needs to delete that one, but a

Fellow by name former agnostic three hours ago He he left this this message for for William it says

I'm not sure what what happened by the reply But I had also stated that all your quotes from the early church fathers pertain to the

Catholic Church Remote and did not answer James White's response Why do I say is because Catholic is used by the early fathers in its context simply meant universal and not

Roman Catholic as the term Is understood today and as James White has stated if you purchased read the early fathers you would see this well

Of course, he takes offense saying that he hasn't done that But here's the here's the key key issue

William responds and I replied that comment the early church was Catholic All caps and their beliefs and doctrines match up to the modern

Catholic Church, not yours Where is Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura in the early church enough said?

There it is. You know, that's that's the mindset. The mindset is that's and you know where we heard that mindset

Did we not hear that mindset during the Tim Staples debate in 1996 in Fulton, California during the audience questions?

And there is somebody standing in line to ask question. They seal out the Eucharist and all the Catholics like you know, they're cheering and you're like This is argumentation

That's mob rule. That's not argumentation That's that's just like we win because we win, you know, and this is this is supposed to be argumentation or something.

Yeah And they don't they don't get it they they they don't see that when they do stuff like that The rest of us sit back and go

Wow Okay, got a problem here That's not a system.

That's really Recommending itself to me as being intellectually fulfilling and overly truthful and Provide a real good ground for doing apologetics against Islam and stuff like that.

You know when you just Eucharist And I'm sorry, but it

If you can't grasp the fact that Catholic back then means something different than it does today then

We've we've got a major problem and So in essence, what what's going on? All right.

Go ahead. I see you One might if you're in those shoes want to be very careful and think very carefully as to what kind of reaction you might get

From Muslims if you did that a mob kind of well, yeah, you don't want to do that in that kind of context, but Those folks aren't those folks aren't doing debates, you know,

I mean, in fact, have you ever heard of Catholic answers doing a debate with a

Muslim. Oh, no, I haven't I'm sitting here thinking I can't think of any one. I can't

I can't either. Have you been do you get Catholic answer stuff in your email? no, okay,

I do and For a week now, I've been getting the same Catholic answers email the dangers of Mormonism how to protect your

Catholic loved ones from Mormonism and I and I just I start sit back and I and I look at this stuff and I just go

Man, I got like six copies of it. I get so sick of it after a while thankfully outlook eventually starts recognizing it as garbage and and checks it in the garbage, but Yeah, they they love to do the ooh be careful this group.

Ooh be careful that group thing, you know And it's always fundraising fundraising fundraising, you know, we're about to go off the air

Give us more money and so we can save your souls and stuff like that thing. Anyway What was I saying? Oh, yeah, so That this mindset that will not even recognize

That you're inserting stuff back here. I even tried to explain to William. Why do you think?

What why do you think that people like John Henry Cardinal Newman came up with the development hypothesis?

there's a reason for this and Roman Catholic Scholarship you go to Boston College someplace like that.

They're gonna recognize it even the conservative ones the evolutionary nature of many of these beliefs, but William stayed in his very first video.

Remember I played it where he's hitting his hand and I'm so sick and dirty Church and then and then the whole

I he says every single one of the early church fathers believe exactly what I believe And you're like wow

They really really believe that they don't have any reason on the planet to believe that but they really really believe that and that's where They start and so whenever I disagree,

I am guilty of misusing the early fathers so any disagreement is automatic misrepresentation and I started seeing that early on I remember back in 1990 when

I Included some historical material in answers to Catholic claims man the

Roman Catholic response was just vicious and And it was and you could tell they were almost shocked and they were offended

They were offended that anyone would dare quote the early church to them because hey, they're ours

They're ours that that no that you can't do that. They're ours Now, of course, they had gotten away with it for a long time

You know most people they quote or must be I'm sorry debate must be the debate, you know, ignore the early church

I remember the first time I ever wrote to Dave Hunt years and years and years and years ago is after It's right around 1991.

I sent him the tapes of my debate with Jerry Maddox on the papacy and He wrote back and said, ah,

I don't do that early church stuff I stick with the Bible almost identical to what he said about the Reformers when we did the program later on and So they hadn't been challenged on that stuff

And so they got used to the idea that hey, you know All we gotta do is quote the early church fathers there on our side and all is well and and you know

That's that's just how it works so they just really responded very negatively a little bit like Like Muslims respond to your utilization of the

Quran your citation the Hadith Hey, that's our stuff. You leave it alone. You don't touch that It doesn't matter whether you're being fair with it accurate with it

If you actually take the time to learn the original languages so you can deal with it, you know I mean,

I I'm not sure but I don't remember encountering almost any Roman Catholic apologists who have the

TLG CD -ROM in there in their library To be able to use it to be able to access these things and check out original languages and do translations and all that kind of stuff

I I don't I don't remember much of that. But Anyway, it's it's it is fascinating to see the mindset now

In the video I put up last night I had to really rush right at the end for a couple reasons I was running out of time in the video. First of all, you only have 10 minutes of 59 seconds

Hit 11 minutes and it's all over with it will reject it But I was also running out of time because I had to get my stuff packed up and get to class and So I didn't get a chance to really comment on what

I posted I posted a quotation from Augustin what had happened and and some folks find this interesting.

So let me say what happened when William posted this this this particular video blog

He mentioned two citations that Roberts and Janice used in our in our debate on the mass in 19

Was that 99? I think I was 99. I think mass is 99 and Justification was 2000.

Yeah, that that sounds about right because I think the papacy debate was 98 as I recall. So anyway, and I had dealt with the with the assertions anyways during the course of the debate

But I did not have the citations in front of me So as I explained on the video You know it would be nice if I had nothing else to do to go back over every debate and look up every single reference that every single point

I've ever had has ever used and And go through all those things but When you're doing as many different things and and addressing as many different subjects as I do

You just don't have that that luxury to do that. And so I had actually

Gone back to the Tertullian Citation, I'm sorry the origin citation not

Tertullian the origin citation and I had you do what you have to what you have to do here.

I Had here for those of you looking on the webcam Here's some

Genesis book. I looked it up in there. And then of course, I found out he had taken it from where else but William Jurgens the the best quote citation source for Roman Catholics and I discovered that neither one of them provided almost any context whatsoever.

So I wanted the context so I did two things I ordered here's origins homilies on Genesis and Exodus putting it up to the camera here for people from the

Fathers of the Church set translated by Ronard Heine and So I ordered that in but then

I had a friend of mine because I wanted to do this a little bit quicker Once I had or the book in I had a friend of mine who's in seminary

Go to his very nice seminary library track the same resource down and use the scan the

PDF function of their copier there to send me the relevant material even before I got the book so I Had to be able to examine the context before I made a comment about it

I'm I don't get the feeling that that's normally what my opponents do, but that's that's what

I did So I had that material already and then a couple nights ago fellow came into channel and started asking about the other citation, which is from Augustine and his commentary on the

Psalter and It was talking about worshipping worshipping in the context as Suggest placed it of of the

Eucharist and Specifically the let me see here

Because he walked here in very flesh and gave that very flesh for us to eat for our salvation and no one eateth that flesh

Unless he has first worshipped We have found out in what sense such a footstool of our

Lord's may be worshipped and not only that we sin not in worshipping it but that we sin in not worshipping and So that was used in the context of see this is adoration of the

Eucharist which demonstrates They believe in transubstantiation and they believe that the host had been changed in the body and blood of Christ in the same way that modern

Roman Catholics do so The fella came in a channel started asking about I was really busy with something else and it was sort of one of those

Braindead things where I'm fixing something on the computer where you have to keep opening one file fix it close opening one file fix it close type of a thing so it was late at night and Sometimes I just get tired.

I just didn't want to do it. I didn't want to you know dig into it but oh Micah comes along thanks a lot

Micah and Pulls up the citation So now I'm stuck now. I gotta dump everything

I'm doing and I gotta go now I gotta go look at this because Micah has has has

Has destroyed my hiding place So anyway

So I started digging into it and we found it online and started looking at there

Got out the the commentary itself and you can go to my my if you want to see the whole thing but the context is really odd it is

A gustin is dealing with an issue that I don't think is an issue to begin with I'll be perfectly honest with you. I He's he's dealing with this this discussion

About God's footstool and Fall down before his footstool for he is holy.

What are we to fall down before his footstool the hoop a patty on? and it says

Then he quotes another text from Isaiah the heaven is my throne the earth is my footstool does he then bid us worship the earth

Since in another passage it is said it is God's footstool How then shall we worship the earth when the scripture saith openly thou shalt worship the

Lord thy God Yet here it saith fall down before his footstool and explaining to us what his footstool is it says the earth is my footstool

I'm sorry But he missed it I mean What does it mean to fall down before God's footstool you're not worshiping the footstool you're worshiping the person who is on the throne

I mean, that's obvious That's that's I'm sorry, but you know

Augustine was not infallible and this this just isn't good exegesis Whatsoever of the original meanings and tying things together and stuff like that So the whole conversation in this in this commentary is brought about by something that really isn't

Overly relevant at that point but that's where you get into that's how he brings Christ into this particular text and how he took upon him earth from earth because flesh is from earth and he received flesh from the flesh of Mary and That's then the quote because he walked here in very flesh and gave the very flesh to us to eat for our salvation

And no one eateth that flesh unless he hath first worshipped It's the worshipping of the footstool, which is the worshipping of the flesh of Jesus and none of this by the way is specifically about Eucharistic theology or anything else, but it's being read into it.

But this is the part that wasn't Included by Robertson Jenison his citation so on and so forth because after it says

That we sin and not worship me It says but doth the flesh give life our Lord himself when he was speaking in praise the same earth said it is a spirit

That quickens the flesh prophets nothing But when our Lord praised that he was speaking of his own flesh and he had said except a man eat my flesh

He shall have no life in him some disciples of his about 70 were offended and said This is a hard saying who can hear it and they went back and walked no more with him

It seemed unto them hard that he said except you eat the flesh the son of man and have you have no life in you they received it foolishly the thought of it carnally and Imagined the

Lord would cut off parts from his body and given to them man Read some medieval Eucharistic stuff, and that's exactly what they take they think too and Give it unto them.

They said this is a hard saying It was they who were hard not the saying for unless they had been hard and not meek

They would have said unto themselves. He saith not this without reason, but there must be some latent mystery herein

They would have remained with him softened not hard and would have learned that from him Which they who remained when the disciples departed learned for when twelve disciples had remained with him on their departure these remaining followers

Suggested to him as if in grief for the death of the former that they were offended by his words and turned back But he instructed them and saith in him it is the spirit that quickeneth

But the flesh profit is nothing the words I have spoken to you their spirit and their life If you ever try quoting those words to a

Roman Catholic about John six you get your head hands you on a platter But Augustine was doing it understand

Spiritually what I have said You're not to eat this body, which ye see Nor to drink that blood which they who will crucify me shall pour forth

Is that not the exact assertion of the Roman Catholic Church that it is the very body soul blood and divinity of Jesus Christ?

but Augustine says You are not to eat this body which you see nor to drink that blood which even which they who will crucify me shall pour

Forth I have commended unto you a certain mystery Spiritually understood it will quicken although.

It is needful that this be visibly celebrated yet. It must be spiritually understood and so actually read the context and It doesn't say anything supportive of the utilization that St.

Janice was using so I Didn't what

I didn't get to do last night, and I'll put it into a video today But I wanted to read this what

I didn't get to do last night was to then quote a Roman Catholic source in support of my own reading of the text since William likes to Dismiss whatever

I have to say the Catholic Encyclopedia Available online

Speaking of the development of Eucharistic theology over time said Speaking of August and the variety of extreme views just mentioned requires an attempt be made at a reasonable and unbiased explanation whose verification is to be sought for and found in the acknowledged fact that a gradual process of Development took place in the mind of st.

Augustine. I remember what William said every single one of the early writers believe what

I believe Here is a Roman Catholic scholarly source saying well not quite

No one will deny that certain expressions occur in Augustine as Forcibly realistic as those of Tertullian and Cyprian of his intimate literary friends

Ambrose up to Aptotis of Malavey Hilary and chrysostom On the other hand it is beyond question that owing to the determining influence of origin and the platonic philosophy

Which as is well known attached, but slight value to visible matter and the sensible phenomena of the world

Augustine did not refer what was properly real in the Blessed Sacrament to the flesh of Christ but transferred it to the quickening principle the spirit ie to the effects produced by a worthy communion a logical consequence of this was that he allowed to Coro the the the flesh of Christ as the vehicle and antitype of rest which is the real

In the Blessed Sacrament remember this is a Roman Catholic source not indeed a mere symbolical worth but at best a transitory intermediary and subordinate worth and placed the flesh and blood of Christ present under the appearances of bread and wine in Two decided in opposition to his natural historical body

Since Augustine was a strenuous defender of personal cooperation effort in the work of salvation and an enemy to mere mechanical activity and superstitious routine

He omitted insisting upon a lively faith in the real personality of Jesus in the Eucharist and called attention to the spiritual

Efficiency of the flesh of Christ instead notice even they have to go well well

Okay Didn't quite you know say the way we'd like to say it and in reality what they don't mention here is the emphasis that Augustine himself made on the fact that the physical body of Jesus Christ is

Located in heaven not on earth and that the church to use his own words is deprived of the physical presence of Jesus Now when

I read one of my first Roman Catholic books introducing me to Roman Catholicism many many years ago

One of the big things that they pointed out Was you get to visit with God?

When you come to the church there in the tabernacle God is physically present with us in the physical body of Jesus Well, that's not exactly what

Augustine had to say He defended the reality of the physical resurrection of Christ by demonstrating that his body was in heaven not upon earth and so Just a matter of allowing everything to be quoted in context and looking at these things

That that is helpful, but I haven't gotten to the origin quote yet, and we've got at least two Well, we had to I guess now we have one

We've got Lawrence on hold so we'll need to get the Lawrence before we wrap things up But we're gonna need to take a break and then we'll be right back

Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

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Support Alpha and Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

Thank you Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be

James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word.

What has happened to this sacred duty in our day? The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring

God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org

Line let me jump right on this other citation real quick then we'll get to our phone calls at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one as soon as You know,

I started looking for this citation. It was rather simple you pick up Not by bread alone the biblical and historical evidence for the

Eucharistic sacrifice by Robertson Jenison. Just go to origin and That's on page 283 and we have this citation and again given

William standards J &D Kelly's side in this book So I don't know that we should even use it because that's just ridiculous to cite

J &D Kelly But I wish to admonish you with examples from your religion. You are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries

So, you know how when you have received the body of the Lord you reverently exercise every care lest a particle of it fall

Unless anything of the consecrated gift perish you account yourselves guilty and rightly do you so believe?

if any of it be lost through negligence and That's the only that's all it said

And then you have a footnote 378 homilies and excellent Exodus patologia

Grecki 1313 3 and then JR volume 1 490 will

JR is actually William Juergens volume 1 page 490 so you go over to William Juergens and you look actually, it doesn't actually it's not the same page at all, but 490 actually is just the reference.

It's a page 490. It's the reference number 490. It's on page 205 if you want to look at them and You're given the same citation

And But Only one sentence longer is provided within Juergens here, but if you observe such caution in keeping his body and properly

So how is it you think neglecting the Word of God a lesser crime than neglecting his body? I'm not sure why some

Janice didn't quote that part. But anyways the problem with Juergens, of course is It's quote book there's there's no context many times the citations are very short and that's why

I needed to go looking for it and when when I did I Looked all through The commentary on Exodus and that's as I said,

I I I tracked down the the information regards to what's origin had to say and so I began reading through the whole the whole section the whole chapter and In essence, it is a discussion.

It's it's a it is a homily. It is it is truly a discussion of the gold of the tabernacle and this one section just pops into it and as soon as it's over you go back to a discussion of of the tabernacle and It's about how origin wishes to be you know to be the gold of the tabernacle to be a proper

Christian and As some of you may recall if you listen to the debate or you listen to the citation

Provided because it was this was during the cross -examination period as the section of William played I specifically asked in Genesis I said so origin is actually addressing the nature of the

Eucharist and instead of answering that And I don't know if he's ever looked up the context.

I don't know if he tracked down the work. I don't know but He He didn't answer the question

Instead he said well just listen to the words. Well, that doesn't answer the question.

I Was asking is the specific text about the subject of the Eucharist or are you?

Assuming certain things here and reading it into the context of origin Now unlike the

Augustine quote the context does not either confirm Nor deny either one of the interpretations of the text the context says nothing

It doesn't provide us any Useful information as to what is meant

By origin at this point you have to determine that from creating an entire theology of origins

Concept of the Eucharist and of course the Roman Catholic is going to go well

One particle is not to fall That's just like what you have in the 12th and 13th centuries and there's all this concern about when when a part of the of the consecrated host would fall and or if you were to spill the wine, you know, the priest is to lick it up and What would happen if a mouse came along and ate a part of the consecrated host and and you know?

All this kind of discussion is going on in 1100 1200 1300 1400 all that kind of stuff That's what's going on in in the context of origin

Well, the problem is you just you can't substantiate that from origin that would have to that would

Origin was a Platonist. Did we not just read a Roman Catholic source blaming origin and Platonism for Augustine's weaknesses at this point?

If if that were the case and if you're reading into origins words this one little particle that physicality of transubstantiation

How do you get that for a Platonist who is downplaying the reality of physical things?

that requires the Aristotelian concept of accidents and presence and Origin is not

Aristotelian in his in his philosophy So the whole background that makes transubstantiation understandable isn't there.

So why do you read it into it? anachronism Anachronism just just just asserting that it's there basically but the fact the matter is the context doesn't doesn't give us any information one way or the other as to how we should evaluate that particular citation so that's one of the drawbacks of Debates is that in the middle of a cross -examination somebody can throw something out there and technically technically

We don't enforce this in our disease debates, but technically, you're not really supposed to do that during cross -examination, but That's just how things work and I'm certain not objecting to that But it's next to it.

It's pretty much next to impossible to evaluate the context of every single citation. It's thrown out That's why people have to read they have to listen.

They have to study they have to you know, follow up and things like that. So Anyway, that's how you track down citations you make sure you've got the resources there.

I remember back in seminary my church history professor mentioning that the vast majority of origins material had yet to be translated and I can feel very

I feel very badly for anyone who gets assigned as a part of their master's work something like that to Translate, you know something from origin.

We got us followed around by scribes who basically jot down everything he's saying and and I personally would feel really really badly if I had to try to establish any of my faith on the basis of origin origin had some really major difficulties as far as theology went but Hey, if that's where you want to go, that's that's where you can go

All of this to make this this statement There's I Can allow the early church fathers to be the early church fathers and I don't have to feel under any compulsion to turn origin into a reformed

Baptist or even turn Augustine into reformed Baptist I know he wasn't I Have criticized

Augustine on a number of issues. I try to be fair to him in his context I'm not like a

Dave Hunt who turns him into the first Roman Catholic and movies evil and all the rest of stuff now

But I don't have to in any way shape or form Invest in these men some kind of Infallible authority and neither do

I have to turn them into me now? we saw you know remember the the quote that I read from From William in response somebody the early church was

Catholic their beliefs and doctrines match up to the modern Catholic Church is not yours where's sola fide and sola scriptura in the early church enough said and That kind of mindset

Where you you are absolutely convinced as your starting point before you you crack the binding of the book

You are convinced that all these early church fathers believed exactly what you believe folks there

Look at the situation. We're in today Even amongst my reformed Baptist brethren and I would say reformed

Baptists are probably one of the most homogenous groups. I've ever run into I mean when I travel A Reformed Baptist pastors tend to be like other reformed

Baptist pastors, especially on theological issues. There's there's a lot of consistency Amongst reformed

Baptists, but you know what there are still differences and I'm awful glad there are we're not looking for clones and So if that's the case today look at the landscape today my goodness why in the world would we think?

That the early church would be any different it should be even more wide in its expressions And it is why because of the level of knowledge that people had of the scriptures

Especially in those first Generations there were churches that wouldn't even have all of the

New Testament. Look at Justin Martyr. Justin Martyr is significantly More at home with Greek philosophy than he is the

Apostle Paul He's almost not even influenced by Paul. Well, that's going to have a major impact on your theology

So why can't I look at a Justin Martyr put him in his context? Be thankful that that given what he had he did what he did and was willing to be a martyr

But the same time I'm not going to invest a whole lot of time in looking at what he has to say about I don't know the exegesis of Romans chapter 5 or something

Because he wasn't in the context to really add much to that particular discussion

So I don't have to turn the early church fathers into Reformed Baptists, I Don't have to in any way shape or form

Force them to be anything other than what they were But the Roman Catholic like William has to turn them into clones of himself.

He can't let them be different He can't let them have different viewpoints on these subjects

He has to turn them into things that they were not and then if you disagree with him

Well, then you're misrepresenting your early father's not misrepresenting anything. Just not agreeing that William is the has been given the charism of infallibility especially in interpreting patristic materials and So that's that's where we go with that.

So interesting to see the responses that are that are offered I'm certainly not going to allow myself to be

Dragged into You know That kind of endless go -around

More than once you know, I will allow somebody else to have the final word because to be honest with you Sometimes the final word they're offering is its own reputation and I just have to you have to trust your audience

To think and to to exam what's being said if you don't You'll eventually burn out and trying to do any of this stuff.

I'll be perfectly honest with you Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let's go to The phone lines and talk with the

Lawrence again. Hi Lawrence. Yes. Hello Yes, sir. I have a question or a comment on your discussion of a video which was by Muslim it seems and there were no questions about the scriptures and at one point you discussed

The the slide or question on John 1428 where the Lord says the

Father is greater than I am and As you often say rightfully so, you know theology matters and how we do apologetics it seems to me that your answer which is to say that the

Lord says this because After human nature basically which he has

You know currently makes him Smaller you could say that that is not the

In my view the best answer or the patristic answer to to this to this particular

View. No, I don't I don't pretend to give a patristic answer. I give a biblical answer well

Let me put it this way. Do you do you? You know in the sense of theology matters Calvin taught that all three persons are autophagos and did not seem to To accept what

I would call the Eastern view that the father is the cause and because the father is cause and origin of The father of the son and spirit therefore the father is greater in that sense, which was what a fanatious

This is this is one of the main reasons that This is one of the main fundamental differences between how we would approach apologetics and and why

I would basically say that I think you have a problem establishing your position because you have to establish your external authorities first The the answer the question is found in Jesus on teaching.

He had just said to the disciples That he is going to be Ascending back to the presence of the father.

That's the context the context is not East and west arguing about procession.

The context is not later Christological formulations from Chalcedon or anyplace else Context is

Jesus his own statement. I'm going back to the presence of the father. I'm no longer going to be here being

Attacked by the by the the Pharisees and the scribes. I'm no longer going to be here Walking the dusty shores of Galilee.

I'm going back to where I have for eternity been in the presence of the father in the fellowship of the father

John 17 sharing the very glory of the father again, John 17 and If you had loved me you would have rejoiced

For the father is greater than I am. So that's the exact context within one sentence of Jesus's words and so that's why

I give the answer I do and I suggest that Trying to give an answer based upon Formulations from three and four hundred years later is

It would involve having first to establish That that's how you do theology and obviously

I don't believe that's how you do theology But isn't in the context you could say almost a tautology.

It's obvious that that You know a human being is is you know can say the father's a great

I mean, isn't that such an obvious statement? Is it wiser as Athanasius did to to admit that the father as cause is in fact greater?

And he was you know, as you know, there is quick rule. It's not a tautology. He's the incarnate one How can that be a tautology?

It's not a tautology. What he's saying is if you had loved me You would have rejoiced that I told you

I was going back to the presence of the father for the father is greater than I am He's talking about location and sphere.

He is humbled himself Is that not the very terminology of the Carmen Christian Philippians chapter 2 he has humbled himself

Now he is going to be exalted back to place. He was before Why in the world?

Give an answer that is clearly not what John intended anyone to understand his words to mean Are you seriously saying that the best?

Interpretation of John 14 will require three or four hundred years of Christological formulation before it can be properly understood

No, I'm just you know seeing a consensus there in in the early writers to interpret this this passage in a way that Gives more more meaning it seems that you're saying more meaning beyond the original intention of the author

But what you're saying that it is the intention. It seems to me that that's the to make this statement meaningful

I would tend to say and I'm from the context itself that that if Christ is saying well, you know,

I'm a human being therefore in it currently. This is true It just doesn't seem to be as as a profound or meaningful a statement as to Refer to the eternal relationship with the father

So the people who heard these words could not have possibly understood he was talking about right? No, not saying that I'm saying that as as in John, you know, the understanding of the

Lord saying was ultimately a reserve for those that understood his teaching so it's not you know meant to be

Understood by just just anyone just but to be Understood by those that were properly taught the the apostles in particular well,

I Haven't heard anything from the context that actually addresses the the reality of the of the situation

I I think that you are in essence saying that the original intention found in the context is insufficient and that we have to have this later crystallogical development understand it, but we obviously disagree on that appreciate phone call today and You know again, that's the difference between I think having an exegetically based

Apologetic and apologetic that is not exegetically based It's based in tradition and this is important because there are lots of people who want to say you can't do that You have to have the tradition of the early church to understand these things and it all comes down to saying

When Jesus uttered these words Did they have a meaning to the people to whom he spoke and if they didn't then all bets are off You might as well just you know exegesis becomes irrelevant and you do need some sort of external tradition to come up with stuff

You know, it calls like that remind me of usually you've reminded us in Sunday school so many times about how

Jesus was so radically different than anything that the Jews were used to because when they went to synagogue

They heard somebody get up and say well, you know rabbi so -and -so said this about what rabbi so -and -so said about that and and they'd always referring back to these previous generational teachers

Rather than looking at the passage for what it had to say straight up on its face in its own context now

Well, and that is what you end up Seeing I mean, there's there's a lot of parallels between What you have developing the medieval period and the various theologians and the compendiums of their opinions in the medieval period

Looks really a whole lot like the Mishnah and that's what happens when you no longer have a

View of sola scriptura, you no longer believe that God continues to speak directly in his word

And you start looking to other sources That's that's what happens But the problem is to do apologetics from that perspective requires you first establish the authority of your ultimate authority

Which isn't the scriptures? it becomes your reading of of the early church writers or their interpretations or you know, wherever it might be and Sorry, don't don't see any reason to go there

Don't see any reason to go. Well, you know, it seems in context

Jesus whole point was That the disciples if they loved him should have rejoiced when he said he was going back to the presence of the father of the father is greater than he is and That going back to the presence of is the contextual

Clue to the meaning and I don't have to go to Kalestan. I don't have to go someplace else to read that back into John to and Good luck trying that with with a

Muslim Or a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness or yeah any the rest of them it doesn't Done work doesn't work at all eight seven seven seven five three three three four one some of the other

Videos coming up for those who are interested You will discover that Other than William and Augustine.

I've also been Once in a while. I sort of like to put up Some of these videos that don't have me staring at a camera

And everybody of course does like my very pretty lava lights in the background Rich is just shaking his head.

But hey, I Have gotten a lot of positive comments on the lava lamps, you know, because let's face it.

Yes. It's 1970s No, I do not wear bell -bottoms, but they are very relaxing.

Definitely something you don't see every day. No, that's exactly right. It isn't Now what

I haven't done yet now wait what You start stringing beads across the door

Draw the line there little little Zen music in the background a little stuff Well, do you think

I should get my board things and put them in the background for at least one of them just to sort Of wake people up no incense either.

No, no, I can't know I would be coughing and hacking and sneezing all the way through What are you talking about? But no,

I do have some of those what do they call them lumen glasses, you know the things that Matt likes you touch, you know, and it's it's the

Borg thing the Borg put their head against it and in the Borg alcoves from Star Trek and I have a orange one a green one and blue one of those so I should

I should I should just line my credenzas there with all of my cool light gadgets for one of Videos and see if anyone hears a word that I say

That that would sort of be a enjoyable thing to do that'd be sort of cool, but anyway Yeah, and I'll wear one of those headbands, you know what the beaded headbands, you know type things with mother mullet a wig

We found this we found this old eight millimeter video from when I was 19 and why do you still have those old great big glasses?

Oh, yeah. No kidding. I think I do someplace I think I do of course Video you can put those on the big long hair and Wow.

Yeah, I did have a big full head of hair It was it's it's sad. You know, we should have a moment of silence for the loss of my hair, but You look at my my high school pictures.

I had I had a I had a wig on just about it was it was pretty thick but anyway, I have no idea why

I went that direction, but sometimes I like to put up some stuff that just doesn't doesn't go that way and so The thing is people going well if you can put that up You just might as well post it on the blog because that's the one

I want to just watch text, you know I'll tell you when they go. Thank you very much. I think more people end up watching that Sure, there are some people that just they just want to read a blog fine

Okay, well whatever but we live in a day when people like to see Color and have music and sound and stuff like that.

And so I've started a series called fast apologetics The first one

I put up is only three minutes of 44 seconds long and In it I address one issue in regards to Mormons the idea of Jehovah and Elohim one issue regards

Jehovah's Witnesses why you'd want to learn Colossians 2 9 and one issue about one is

Pentecostals their misuse of John 1030 and pointing out that When it says

I and the Father one The verb there is plural it literally can be translated I and the Father we are one not

I is the father That would that would be how it would have to be. I is the father if it was singular

Three minutes 44 seconds. Nothing. Nothing, you know Fancy anything like that.

Just here's some quick stuff for you to think of you know, and Just knowing that the verb is plural there might be very helpful.

Not only when talking to a one is Pentecostal Let's face it and a lot of Christians and evangelical churches are really confused about that subject too

And they think Jesus is the father and so you can you know explain to them stuff like that So that's a somewhat useful

I think and then I have one on the deity of Christ That's about seven minutes long where all

I did is just Threw up the major passages and just sort of in a concentrated fashion

Somewhat as an encouragement certainly, I think Christians enjoy seeing all those texts about who

Jesus is and then I put some nice pretty music behind it and Again, those are on the the dr.

Oakley YouTube video page. They will not appear until March the blog but they they are they are up there so and People keep asking me.

Oh Could you give me some suggestions as to what video software to use And I laugh at that because all

I'm using is Windows Movie Maker which I even found out on my home unit it almost chokes on it because my home unit it doesn't quite have the processor and RAM that it needs to do things so it it gets it done eventually but Now I'm discovering what you've been doing all these years

Video processing takes a lot of time On that that computer and the faster that processor and more

RAM. It's got and everything else The easier it is do that stuff. Can you imagine doing some of the stuff with the old 486 as we had and Pentium ones and Just just couldn't couldn't be done couldn't couldn't and you were you said you got a video email recently?

That's that's pretty impressive. That's I'm not sure that I would want to do that Because that's got it's got to be huge Wasn't it?

I I think it links to a site. I'm not exactly sure how it works It's a broadband and actually automatically senses your broadband connection when you click on you to play it

And I think it's called video mail really and it was actually pretty impressive But what if you send that to source?

I don't have video mail so I couldn't reply to it via video mail Oh, yes, of course, of course,

I guess I could have replied via email Does that mean if he's using video mail does he have email

I would assume that it would come to him Yes, I mean, that'd be sort of defeating the purpose if you can't respond to the guy

Yes, but then you feel and why is it well, why is it 1158 and there's no music secondary? Anyway We'll continue doing our best to get that information out there for you folks and We'll be back again

Thursday afternoon Lord willing with the dividing line. See you then The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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