A Christian View on Mental Health- Laborers' Podcast

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We are going to do the best of our ability have a conversation On a

Christian's view of mental health Welcome to the laborers podcast, which is a part of the truth in love

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We'd love to hear from you hear your questions Critique we'll try to answer to the best of our ability guys house.

How's it going? We've got Tyler from bread of the word Troy the humble Baptist podcast and big

John real talk with big John You guys doing okay? Yes, sir

Good good. I'm glad well, this is this is a daunting task

As I mentioned before in our prayer, that's that's how I feel about every time we approach a subject

Where we want to hear? From God his perspective out of Scripture on on any subject

Our desire to Handle it correctly rightly divide the word of truth hear from God and what he has to say on a subject

It's a daunting task just because of our our inability because of our sin nature all those things

Wrapped up together. It's hard and we have a desire to glorify God and to do that.

We've got to understand him correctly so that we can communicate him correctly and This subject especially the the depth of it,

I think this is this is definitely outside of my Expertise, but I'm not it.

I'm not a doctor and and nothing that is said tonight is going to be How do they say it's not advice medical advice

It's a waiver. I'm here More like a disclaimer And I want to do my best to not be dogmatic about any opinions

I'll share You know the best thought of my ability what I've learned and I look forward to hearing from you guys

But you know, we are in no way giving medical advice We're just going to share from our experiences and our studies of what we've learned and hopefully

Hear what God has to say from his word and glorify his son, so I I really think we need to start with a a definition of Mental illness.

I'm gonna share this one and Tyler. I know you've been looking into this and You can give me a thumbs up you can give me a different different definition

But this is what I found when I look this up. This is a clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition emotion

Emotion regulation or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological biological or developmental process underlying mental functioning

What what have you found what definition would you use So just to I guess simplify

Because that was a very clinical definition right there we are very unclinical people but essentially the official definition for mental illness tends to be along the lines of abnormal behaviors just as a group of Behaviors of different patterns you might say that are what we would consider not normative

This isn't normally what? people experience But in some cases they do experience that and it leads to unique challenges in navigating the world in which they live oftentimes

Some of those patterns we lump in things like anxiety different forms of depression things of that nature

Would you say as a part of that definition that? Those things are not really one -offs or Occasional that they're part of the definition of mental illness, but those things would be persistent

Yes Okay, I think there are I think you could can see that there are

Individual cases of anxiety, but when we get into the mental health discussion These are patterned

Cases of these things like I got you might see the term chronic depression where it's

It's almost in cycles. It might might be years. It might be months, but it's it's a it's a battle.

Yeah Troy and John I'm gonna I'm starting at the top and this is related to that question of defining it

It says what is your understanding of mental health issues? Like anxiety depression or trauma and how do you approach them?

so I had a question pulled up because I'm Oh What is your understanding of mental health issues like anxiety depression trauma and how do you approach them biblically is that the question you ask

Yeah, yeah, all right making sure I answers so things like anxiety depression

I Would I don't know that I'm again? I'm not a health advisor by no means but I wouldn't lump I would more likely to lump them together than I would the third one which was trauma and I'll tell you why

Because things like anxiety and depression is often more perception than anything

You get 15 people the same scenario and most of the time you'll get 15 different ways they look at it and sometimes people get anxious over things that other people don't get anxious about And sometimes people can be depressed about things that other people just let rolls her back so there's gonna be perceptions trauma on the other hand is different Trauma that I take is something that is that is

Inflicted on someone and then the reaction from that is the trauma or is the response to trauma trauma is an act

Against an individual which might elicit some of the responses formerly mentioned or even some that aren't mentioned that would be some other kind of case so I Biblically, I think that things like anxiety and depression are

One a result of the fall I Think that it's a part of the fall of mankind.

We see things like anxiety and depression too, I think that You have to look at them one of two ways one in the sinner's life

Or the one that's lost and in the Saints life or the one that's saved. How do these two?

How do these two things approach? What I would say that if we're going to look at those that are lost apart from Christ Anxiety and depression are going to be the natural response of living in a sinful state

Being a sinful person and having no hope To those that are in Christ, I would say that whenever things like anxiety and depression

Affix themselves to someone it's most of the time because they've lost sight of the bigger picture and it's an it's a

I Don't say a forgetfulness of it, but maybe there's an error of having forgotten

Trauma again is something that that is inflicted on someone and without a little bit more of I guess of a definition or a little bit more of a

Example, I don't know that I could give you Any kind of biblical response to that? You're welcome to throw something out there, but just the word trauma in itself

I don't know that I can dissect that well, and and to Tyler's point and Looking at your point where you're talking about giving people the different people the same scenario.

There's also going to be like a space sure of responses, so Two people may have anxiety over the same issue, but they may find themselves

Different places on the spectrum of anxiety. So so I mean, this is a real

Complex situation complex issue when you're looking at mental health

Becky's with us miserous self She says it's hard with clinical depression because I feel like the psalmist where I trust

God, but I'm completely broken all the same And see

I can relate to that. I'm just personally up and I guess if I was get tested

I'd probably come back back with with chronic depression if I was to go see a doctor and get the the prescriptions on that but I actually had a particularly rough bout of Depression about a year ago, maybe two

Came out of nowhere That's I refer back to that time as the week on my knees that it was it came out of nowhere

It hit like a train because I didn't doubt the goodness of God. I didn't doubt his sovereignty.

There was just I Would say was demonic honestly something like we see in the

Old Testament. I thought it was a it was a temptation to despair Essentially It wasn't necessarily that I had moved or that I had

Forgotten God, but for whatever reason my feelings told me one thing even though my head said it wasn't true and so it was at its core it was a it was a

Temptation to give in to despair Did that make sense? Yes What Pointing back to what what

Tyler just said and Big John as well whenever we look at things like anxiety depression and Even trauma.

It's real easy Something that the that the believer has to keep in their mind and I'm glad miss miss

Becky brought it up as well as well as David because he's a he's a wonderful picture of this all throughout the

Psalms is that These anxiety and depression

And even and even trauma are gonna have some level of subjectivity to them

That they're subject to circumstances. They're subject to expectations. They're subject to what has happened

But the way that we approach them biblically is that that the Bible contains?

Objective truth. Yeah, and so that it is truth that's going to be true for all times and One thing, you know,

I can't really speak much on the anxiety and the trauma I can personally speak to the depression side of things.

I was on antidepressants for nine years However Whenever these subjective feelings as Tyler put it, you know come to us

We have to check them through the objective Word of God, which means, you know

If those moments that do come for the believer you know, we're gonna have to constantly be running back to the objective truth of if I believe the gospel

I am his if I believe the gospel this is true and we see

David doing it a lot in the Old Testament as Miss Becky Pointed out the

Psalms. He's crying out Lord Cast off Lord. My enemies are gonna devour me.

But yet I know I have trusted in you Lord. I know you are my salvation

And so we can see he's preaching the objective truth to himself in his subjective circumstances

Yeah, I would agree with that one. That's Partly the direction I was going by saying your perspective, you know, sometimes you have to remember

We say all the time hindsight is 20 -20 and that's because When you're going through something you have no idea what's coming in five minutes

But you have the benefit of history where you can look back. So as as a believer Whenever I'm faced with things like Anxiety for instance or something like that You Have to consciously take this thought captive.

The Bible says take every thought captive you have to consciously take the thought captive and my suggestion is to Remember a time when when

God has seen you through that if for some reason you can't remember a time you can go to scripture and find a time throughout scripture where God is as Has brought somebody through the same exact thing or something very similar

I've never by God's grace. We've never dealt with anything like clinical depression. I sometimes

Deal with with being anxious and And worry at my wife would say worrying about stuff all the time that I don't have no control over.

That's a You know just being real with you. That's a that's a a burden that I carry

Anyone of y 'all's minds whenever you go go to bed after you've cut everything off you think about 15 15 ,000 different things that You might have done different that day and a 15 ,000 things that might happen the next day and start planning

Contingency plans for every scenario you find yourself in or am I the only one I? have to have

Like a podcast or something going I actually sleep with one earbud in Like and that's how

I go to bed because that's the only way my brain will shut off at night And my wife actually plays the

Bible app out loud. Yeah And and so yeah, yeah, I'm one of those white noise guys that needs some kind of auditory input while I sleep

I tell you what helped me with this is Two things and I know

I'm getting ahead a little bit, but because some of mine don't make sure I say it One is reflection and Thanksgiving There's been more than one time

That I have found myself worried about something that I know that that My wife knows that the

Lord knows that I cannot affect change on Now I can't stop it from happening.

There's nothing I can do to do you know events that are in motion are in motion, and I can't stop them you see what

I'm saying and I'll pray about whatever. I'm worried about and then

I'll begin to thank God for the things That he's already given me whether or not

I Get to keep them or whether or not any bad thing happens and then typically For whatever reason

I read the book of Colossians. It has always given me a great deal of peace every single time

I've been Dismayed by some event some I read I read one of Paul's books and immediately

Things tend to come into focus the big picture the little picture the the nonsense picture

I begin to prioritize and it helps with my anxiety First Peter one first Peter one is is mine

Miss Becky says I was suggested anyone going through a bout of depression to read Joe where God speaks from the world when it

Puts me in the right mindset most of the time They probably hit a chord with you up there

Tyler reading Joe Joe for two years Yeah, I think there's

I think there's two viewpoints to this question and of course we went in that the natural direction of Solution, you know, what was the what's the biblical approach?

finding biblical solutions going to God's Word, but I think there's another viewpoint to this question and Think about it like this.

What is? What is the biblical approach or how would you up? approach this biblically

And I've thought about it conversations. I've had with Tyler and and I know if I'm thinking back correctly

I'm thinking we've talked about and discussed folks who have had a very harsh

They have a very harsh response to those who are facing these battles that they'll call

The the folks who are on a spectrum. What are what are some of those folks say Tyler? Do you remember what

I'm talking about? They're very harsh to folks who are on the autism spectrum. Okay, I'm trying with you.

Yeah See, I've had people tell me I'm possessed. I've had people tell me it means I'm not a Christian You get all kinds of things.

Yeah, people are very harsh In their response to these issues with Even if it's not chronic or persistent and maybe would be labeled a mental illness

Those you're dealing with anxiety depression, you know Just do this or you're you're possessed or you're oppressed or just very rigid and harsh but until you have

Experienced something like this and you're like where in the world did this come from?

Oh It's just there so when

I look at this question that says what How do you approach? these things biblically

I'm thinking now with the perspective that I have I want to approach these things with gentleness and kindness and patience

Because Oftentimes most often times people don't know where this this thing comes from That's attacking them and causing them to feel this way

And so to me the gentle approach the kind approach

As as together you see God's Word To find his solution

Because that that that rigidity and and harshness is is just so unhelpful

And I think that's almost like a lingering Influence from the prosperity gospel that we have we tend to have this idea.

I think that I'm a Christian So I shouldn't have Struggles, I shouldn't suffer.

I shouldn't have this I shouldn't have that that because I'm a Christian I've got the joy joy joy down in my heart.

And so I shouldn't have depression But Job's Just going back to Joe, but Job said that man is born for trouble as the sparks fly upward

Even to go to the words of Christ from the lips of our Lord is in this life. You will have

Tribulations, that's right But take heart for I have overcome the world

Amen, we're told time and time again Old and New Testament that troubles struggles trials

Whatever term you want to use there can be expected that that is Just how it is

Well, there are times where God makes things crooked. So it would seem I Would say this for that.

I Want you to finish it, but I won't say this when you're saying it though. You're 100 % right the prosperity gospel has has destroyed people's perception of the why people

Come up on hard times or whatever whether it be Depression anxiety, would it be something else?

I mean I put it this way if if you forget if you have forgotten that there's a war raging and The weapons that we fight aren't carnal right weapons this warfare that we fight on our corner, but we're we are in the fight of our lives

Battles not ours to win But I have found that the people that are afflicted the worst with these things

And are afflicted the most often with them are the ones that Are standing in the hardest opposition to the enemy

By that I mean you're usually doing the right thing whenever you run up on these kinds of troubles The devil's got no reason to fight.

Somebody's on his side That's right That's right That makes sense.

I'm sorry, but I interrupt you go ahead. You're good I think we're going the same way And so we have have to recognize that Struggles and trials are things that we can anticipate this isn't

This is an abnormal. This isn't Just you're not a good enough Christian yet And if you just get more more sanctified to be super Christian, you won't have these problems

God tell us time and time again. We're gonna have these problems But he also gives us hope that there is a purpose in them that there's something that we can benefit from them

Because it is God who worketh in us for his good pleasure, that's right, and that has to be the the baseline

I think for how we Work through things like mental illness. Is that It's not just because people sin

But also that God can still work in it Whether we see it as that or not

God is at work. Amen Yeah We've already been touched on this but let's move to number two.

How how do you guys integrate Scripture personally? When it comes to these issues

We want to of course offer help to others Maybe they can glean from and some of the practices that we take on I'm always pointing back to objective truth.

We have to stand on what is clearly promised in Scripture the fact that we have so many pictures of this from Moses to Elijah to David to to Christ and his disciples going through tribulation going through struggles going through Everything especially with like Elijah and David you see depression clearly

And it being Something that a that a believer will go through And and so that's that's what we constantly have to keep on our hearts

You know We'll have something like the the verse of the day right if it's just one scripture that you're that you're going back to You know and each one of us threw it out right

Tyler was quoting Job miss Becky Said go to go to Job Brother John Where'd you go to Colossians?

Yeah, I'm second Corinthians Colossians and second Corinthians and you know, mine's first Peter And it's just where do you go?

To find your your help where you know What are the words of our of our great helper that that will help us in in time?

Where this circumstances isn't changing but our perspective on it, that's good

That's real good. I look at these these mental health issues similarly to like a

Physical injury Most of the time physical injuries take time to heal, right?

Yeah, I mean you you got to put ointment. Sometimes you have to take antibiotics There there's a regimen to be getting better and it takes time to to heal those physical injuries

And the same thing is true just because of the state of our Being that that we are still in this simple fallen world.

We're Fallen simple creatures. And so when it comes to these mental health issues

Is it God's prerogative if he wants to he can miraculously heal somebody?

Forever at starting at one point Yes He can do that and I'm sure he has done that and and it's not wrong to pray for that because we want to be

Done with this. We want to be done with sin. We want to be done with the effects of sin I and you know, we just we just want to be done with it forever

But it's not in always in God's plan for all of us and we don't want to always understand what he's doing and so God's word is like That that healing ointment as as God is continually healing us

We don't know how long he is going to take to do that healing process. But but that but the scripture is that healing bomb that that we

Ingest Daily Mm -hmm the rest of our lives

I've got a sticky note right here on my desk. This is let us sing the 46th

Psalm and let the devil do his worst Man, that is so spot -on last night.

We were going over some of some of this stuff at church as we were ending up and We're going through Joshua, you know one line at a time on Wednesday nights and You get to the place and Joshua chapter 11 and it's described that Joshua and Israel are going to war against these kings and their armies were like the sand of the sea and when

I saw that it reminded me of God's promise to Abraham that his descendants were to be like the sand of the sea and this is

Like a counterfeit of that the same way those fake snakes was that Moses's when it

Moses's snakes ate when he went to Pharaoh, right and then

These these these Kings wage war against Israel and God delivers them straight away over into Israel's hand and it's just like Right in the midst of that they hamstringed our horses and they burned their chariots with fire

Then my mind went straight to Psalm 46, right? and how how he makes the world wars deceased it's it's absolutely beautiful Psalm and yes, sister

Becky's right on you go to the Psalms for stuff like that and I'm wondering when

I read these Psalms is David reminding himself of what God has carried him through his whole life is

David reminding himself that why his own dad overlooked him God didn't that God sent someone to go call him out from the from among the sheep and anointed him

King when everyone else in this family had given up on him That God had delivered both the giant into his hand just like the bear and the lion and these

Psalms Didn't my mind they get a little Pentecostal rough. I had to I'm sorry.

Don't be mad at me. I love it Which is why Psalm 46 with my favorite

That's one of the reasons we sung it at the first conference I Don't know if you remember that or not brother

Tyler I do I remember it's taking a video and sending it to the rest of my family. Oh, did you we're doing some 46?

Yes Church Church of God praise teams leading us in a Psalm. What is going on in the world right now in a

Reformed Baptist Church? Everything's upside down. There's no rules See my favorite

Psalm is Psalm 130. Oh Out of the depths have I cried unto thee

O Lord. Hmm Because even out of the depths Just got here.

Hmm. I need that reminder a lot. Yeah, that's good And tell me what you think about this.

Here's here's another I think Missing element that we've read it. We we know it but we

Forget it and don't apply but another missing element that we fail to integrate and apply to our lives

Listen to these passages and I know Now don't get me wrong I think some of these some of these cases are due to consequences because of sin

Sure, and some are just a result of living in a sinful world. I mean you have both and both circumstances but but listen these virtues

Romans 15 1 we who are strong have an obligation to bear with the the failings of the week and not please ourselves first Thessalonians 514 bear with the week be patient toward all and then

Galatians 6 to carry each other's burdens and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ Ephesians 4 9 through 10 2 are better than 1 because they have a good return for their labor if Either of them fails falls down one can't help the other up.

God has given us to each other yes, amen and Why do we not take advantage of that?

Why do we push people away? and and Think that we can handle this on our own

Why do we not utilize this gift of one another? Right, yeah

And also there's a stigma surrounding it. Yeah, let's be realistic Everybody on this what most people in our network are in some form of leadership at their local church on day

Right are my are my wrong. I think I'm writing that and So many people come to you with their problems and What I think in our mind sometimes we believe what they think that somehow another

I've got a problem And they'll never trust me with theirs or they'll they'll run me out on a rail which ain't nothing but corn carnality affecting your mind arrogance or pride or whatever or maybe even

Believing a lie of the enemy in that case you talked about medicine being good for the body whenever there's an injury

Nobody thinks twice about going to the doctor to get a bone set You break your arm.

You go get it set. So that'll heal right if you don't get it set, right? It won't heal right?

That's just the way it is. Yeah, but yet stuff this mental People don't ever want to talk about it

Well, if you don't never talk about it, you're never going to make you just never going to get better I think we go ahead.

We've we've gotten into to churchy entity right where a lot of people their idea of a church is to go in and You know you put on your church face.

Oh, hey, how you doing brother? It's you know, nice to you know Good to see you this morning. I'm blessed. I'm blessed and highly favored

On and you do this to the next brother Rest to flex will be better shape You know

It's sad because this is really a foreign concept that that's rather recent you read

Spurgeon Spurgeon dealt with depression You read Luther Luther dealt with depression. It's funny.

There's a story of Luther and his wife he's in his depressed fit down there the study she gets all dressed up in black like she's going to a funeral and And she walks down the stairs to him and you know, he looks up and he's like, why are you dressed like that?

She's like, well, didn't you hear God's dead? And what silly woman God can't die and he goes

Well, that's the only reason you should be acting like this is if God's dead. Oh She didn't she she pulled that car.

Those two were a hood man. Yeah Yeah, that's a whole nother funny story Basically jail broke nuns on Easter and one of them ended up Shanghai and I'm in to be in his wife.

It's Don't know if you know about that brother John, but we're gonna fill you in one day tonight.

Today is not that day. Okay But All all these great men of the faith

Throughout the history, you know, you read more than just their their highlights And you'll see the true men that had true problems and that that's a true

Encouragement for people like us which are which are not high and lofty which you know

None of us are and and if they if they heard us say that about them They'd probably slap us because they're like who am

I? But we ought to Help our brothers, you know as as brother

Rob pointed out all those scripture verses I've had one on my mind this entire time since we've been talking

Romans 12 15 rejoice with them that do rejoice and weep with them that week.

Yep We got to be there for our brothers and sisters We need it

We need them. Do you find that the sheer number of scriptures that are encouraging to people?

who would otherwise be depressed and anxious should give some calls for the amount of Depression and anxiety that must be within the church the fact that there's so many scriptures that people are going to whenever they're depressed or anxious should give you some measure of Some measure to know that there's a reason they're in there

Yeah, if they weren't in if there wasn't so many I mean Undoubtedly Joshua needed to be encouraged not to be afraid or God wouldn't have told him so many times to have courage

To not be afraid right? God's not gonna tell you something. You don't need to know So it's my fault that Joshua must have been one man who was prone to to fear if If God's character is the way that it appears to be and it is in fact unchanging.

I Joshua in his flesh would have been the worst military leader of all of Israel God tends to use people in their weakest areas to be the strongest

Yeah, and in their weakness his strength is perfected So if I had yeah,

I guess I love 2nd Corinthians if I had to agree that I Wouldn't I wouldn't think that Joshua?

Was it was a man that struck the heart or struck fear in the heart of his enemies or there wouldn't have been so many

That went to war with him. He's an old dude. Josh was an old dude. So there's a reason God's continually encouraging

Joshua to remember what he'd done for Moses and what he's already done for Joshua and to have strength and to be of good courage and and With that being said if we look at the

New Testament, it's just one portion of the book for a measure of encouragement We're told continually to think on these things or to remember that this eternal this short momentary line of afflictions working for us an eternal weight of glory

That the sufferings of this world are not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in us and things like that We're we're continually reminded throughout the

New Testament, which tells me there must be a reason that God's reminding us to take heart

And to be of courage and to shake off anxiety to doctor to take every thought captive to be anxious for nothing

But in all things give thanks to God Let me take a slightly different approach to this looking at solutions

Just just from drawing from personal experience. This is why I think the songs that we sing should intentionally be didactic in nature

What's that mean when I'm teaching layer oh clear and teaching

When I'm when I'm singing with others about Jesus and I'm singing about his

Character his nature and his attributes or about the father When I'm singing those things

The Lord brings joy to my heart and I and I really appreciate and Grateful that the

Lord Created us that way. Mm -hmm Where he he allows us to enjoy music

Yeah to learn about him to learn how to rest in him. I think that's part of that risk

I mean a third of the Bible is poetry Mm -hmm that a lot of the theology gets fleshed out in the poetry

I've been working through Job for two years and I'm of the persuasion that I think

Job was the first book of the Bible to be written and I think part of what God did through the book of Job was he gave

The Old Testament Church, he gave the Jews He's sort of a cultural touch point

That Job is where they get a lot of their language through which they address God There's a lot of the language in Job that you can trace through the law you can trace through the

Psalms The episode of podcast I'm getting ready to schedule for Sunday.

Well, I wound up in 1st John Talking about walking in the light as he is in the light

And I truly believe that the poetry was where they learned how to dialogue with God I'm just I'm just getting back to what what

Rob was saying with As our songs being didactic that we're not just shaped by what we worship, but how we worship

If we could try to think Historically here for a second Becky Becky still with us tracking along with us

She said just people that told me that anxiety is a sin because Being a be anxious for nothing putting scripture this she says or that I am in sin

So so pastorally How would you approach not not just Becky but in general this situation?

I think that's a very delicate line because Jesus did said did say do not be anxious

We're not denying that that that is absolutely something contained in the Word of God do not be anxious

I'm really bad at obeying God So There's definitely merit to to the admonition of don't be anxious, but is that what anxiety in the modern definition is

Are they the same thing? I'm not entirely sure that they are Universally There's there's a lot of things when it comes to these cases right to to address an individual pastorally or as an elder or Someone seeking counsel with you.

You've got to understand that person's situation Because it's it's a case -by -case thing

Completely right someone struggling with depression May be going through a situational depression.

This is my circumstances and therefore You know, this is what's driving me. And as soon as those said that situation is

Resolved they're good They're good, and they they never struggle with it ever again then there's also clinical depression where it's

You know, someone may have hormone imbalances somebody may literally have a chemical imbalance that's that's that's going on These things are case -by -case and I think approaching the individual issues

For the individual requires individual counseling You know, there's there's a lot of things where you can't go look this is sin because the

Bible says trust God and You're not trusting him, you know, therefore it's sin That is that is not grace.

That's trying to beat someone with with the letter of the law That's not how we're called the minister

Especially not on on these these issues right here Where the

Bible gives us that constant weep with those who weep right or rejoice with those that rejoice

We're called to be tender -hearted to those that are tender -hearted, you know

We don't treat that like how we would rebuke Joel Osteen. We don't treat that the same way that we would you know

Treat anyone else that is preaching a false gospel We we treat that as hey look

Let me let me show you what the Word of God says and if they need if they need medical help Uh, we would point them to medical help

That's I think that's spot -on I think that's Showing and speaking truth and love because the exact like you said there there's a

Bible calls the Bible calls us to not be anxious But Bible also calls us like you said to weep with those who weep there's a time for straight talk but there's

There's a time, you know that that approach is being tender -hearted to know the situation to know the person and whether it's time for that straight talk or if it's

We weeping with them for a time. It's a little different from us somebody having an

Anxiety episode in your office and then you just slap them with be anxious for nothing and you walk out of the room

Mm -hmm. Yeah, you got it. You gotta ask more questions and you you really have to ask more questions and you give answers.

That's right. Yeah Whenever I'm dealing with someone Who who has asked for counsel about something like that?

Troy I believe you're right, you know in I would disagree with you on some things, but but I think you have to take each case as an individual basis for once for starters now

I would somewhat I'm hesitant to to give a lot of credence to chemical imbalances

Believe it or not. I watched a very interesting documentary that wretched TV put out some years ago

About this subject. I don't remember the episode title. It's been many years ago that I watched it, but at least at that time the the methodology for treating chemical imbalances was

Based on treating the symptoms And they had never measured a living person's chemical in the brain the chemicals of a living brain at that time they may have since this has been some years ago and there were some

Christians that were outside of a symposium that neuro neurosurgeons and neurologists were were going to and the

The logic for how they treated people was based on How they reacted to stimula and They would medicate in a certain direction and a lot of the conditions were they

They were diagnosing people with conditions With a hypothesis that you couldn't test and I think that that's dangerous, right?

So things like hormones, however, you can test Chemicals, I don't know how much you can test in a living person's brain the chemical activity of them without killing them so I would agree that areas like Hormones the the person's lifestyle that they're living their overall health has a huge bearing on how they feel and if you feel bad then you think bad most of the time and if the area that can be repaired can be repaired with a

Better lifestyle than it should be. I just wait. I mean Anyone who's ever been down in their back

It's don't just affect your back. It affects your mind you get depressed because you can't do the things that you want to do and Feeling helpless while you're laid on on the ground or whatever.

It affects more than your body. So Each case is a case -by -case basis when somebody comes to me with their with their depression or their symptom of trauma

I Listen, and then I ask them to explain what they think it is

And most of the time I have found people actually understand what causes it if they'll be honest with you

If they'll be honest with you, they'll tell you exactly what's caused it. And then once they've said it out loud

They realize that wait a minute. I Didn't run you to talk to you too much about this now realize what my problem is and you can watch it in their face

I was talking to somebody the other day about it was there was a a sin issue and I said

Take exactly what I did. I'm not saying any names. So that's okay. I said I Said what is what is this right here?

And they say that's a smartphone. I said, okay. I said what if I decided to call it a soccer ball? This person said well you'd be dumb

Because it's a smartphone. I Said okay, and we were talking about marriage, right?

They were calling a certain type of union a marriage. I said, it's not a marriage So who gets to say it's not a marriage.

I said who gets to say this in a soccer ball She said well the manufacturer gets to say it's not a soccer ball. It's a phone and she went

I said exactly Exactly the manufacturer said its limitations and its boundaries and told you its proper usages

What it was good for what it wasn't good for what it was and what it wasn't You have to go back to the manufacturer to determine whether something's right or it's wrong

Objectively as Troy's been saying the whole time That's the Word of God and and and so many people that deal with depression

There's usually something that has caused it and if they'll ever face it a lot of times it's seven

It's self -remedied. Is that fair brother Tyler in your case, or is your something completely different?

I might just completely out on left field And sister Becky feel free to comment Run the question by me one more time, please

It's been my experience whenever I'm counseling people who are dealing with with I'm gonna call it anxiety or depression

Once I ask them what they're dealing with and what they think causes it

Most of the time they'll they'll say out loud what they think's caused it and immediately they begin to recognize

What could what they can do to fix it or what can be done to fix it or what can't be done, right?

I mean somebody dealing with trauma from Their their father who passed away and some of the things that he's that they can't make that right.

There's no making that right but saying it out loud and sometimes

Just sharing the experience with somebody and what has happened so that you can get it off of your chest tends to help with it

And I don't usually offer a lot of advice. I just listen If I'm hearing you, right big

John, I think you are agreeing a lot with You've got that book to Presbyterian Jay Adams and nuthetic counseling this might come as a surprise to you, but I have never read that book

Are you okay Troy I Think we lost

Troy man When It comes to this chemical stuff. Oh That was good.

That was good. I'm not a scientist and I'm not a doctor, but what I Feel like I do believe as from what

I've experienced This is what I believe That what we put in our bodies affects our bodies, oh, yeah, and it's not just removing what we consume

But it's putting good things in that our body needs affects our bodies chemically and The second thing is or third thing is that I've experienced that our bodies change with age

Yeah And so taking taking all these factors into consideration

There is there there are things that go on inside of us I Do want to throw in brother

Rob if you don't mind me Stepping in there. I know that like if somebody's eating junk all the time.

They're gonna feel bad and And it's gonna cause not bad things But yet I also know

You know 180 pound in shape hitting the gym all the time Spiritually right people, you know, he's in church loves the

Lord Knows the Lord as it, you know knows Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior all the above, you know

Drinking water all the time not pounding Mountain Dews like me You know in shape guy

Still struggle with depression You know, and so while I can see that being a thing, right?

But but we have unhealthy people and healthy people struggling from depression

You know, we have sickly people dealing with anxiety and we have Healthy people dealing with anxiety we and and so I Think what you're getting at is that the nutrition component is but one factor

Yeah, it's what what do we what do we do with that as well? Right more form in a question because I deal with Counseling in this in this area quite a quite a bit and that's one of my one of my pushbacks to the holistic guide decide of things right because you will get a

Holistic medicine blood work print out saying oh, well, you know don't eat this chicken

You know, oh, you know stay away from asparagus and honey You know because we're trying to kick your thyroid and the hypergear so it can fix your stomach which is going to fix your

Emotional Whatever it is you're dealing with whether it be depression or anxiety and yet I do know people that are

Very in shape, but yet also still struggle with this thing. And so There's this big thought process and you treat the body you treat the spirit but yet there's also

I'm struggling to see It be Consistent. What are y 'all's thoughts on that?

I'm throwing I'm throwing it everywhere. I think this tells us three things number one

You're not alone You know if you're if you're dealing with this situation because of this situation

You know, you're not alone. And the reason you're not alone is because what we talked about earlier

There is a wide spectrum When it let's use anxiety for example, there's a wide spectrum on the intensity of anxiety with each individual situation and there's a wide spectrum on how it comes about and So the third thing that this tells me is going back to what big

John was teaching us we ask more than we speak to find out where we are and To find out what the solution is.

I think about people dealing with allergies and what's one of the what's one of the solutions?

That they talk to people about with allergies it Okay, remove this from your diet

Then remove this for you to see what you're actually allergic to just because the spectrum is so wide

It's okay to take time to figure out what where you are individually I like to hear what

Tyler has to say about the whole of listening to what they say and if saying it out loud

And being allowed to share what's causing you or what you think's causing you feel this way is in any way helpful

Well, first I'll say that I'm taking a class at my church on how to do that my church is actually doing a

Counseling class right now and my pastor is walking through how to counsel by asking questions

That is not my natural way of dealing with stuff. I I'm the facts guy

I like to be more data oriented. And so this is something that I'm learning how to do for others but I would definitely say that being able to Get to that point where I say out loud

What you're talking about? that that clicks The idea that if you give your brain enough time to think you'll start to realize the patterns for yourselves

I think part of that is I Think part of that's the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that he is

Bringing things to your attention. You don't think that's just you're smart, but that is

God working in you through that progressive sanctification of learning how to take inventory of these things and learning how to Draw nearer to Christ.

I think that's a pretty consistent approach whether it be a secular counselor or a

Euthytic counselor or Christian counselor is that You ask more questions.

You do more listening than you do talking I think that's the pretty from what

I understand in the conversations that I've had That's a consistent approach between all of them and Tyler I think you said something very significant about the importance of that approach that if you're a secular counselor you miss

Giving opportunity for the Holy Spirit to work. Amen Amen so Who we are running out of time.

I want to ask this last question because it is Debated I think quite a bit

And then we'll definitely share this the gospel where we can find healing for our soul

We'll pray but let's see this question question number three That's as far as we got

Is it okay to work with or seek out medical professionals?

When a physical or neurological and I think Jay uses the term organic Issue might be contributing to mental health concerns

So that is a contested one. It's contested about seeing seeking professionals using medication

Um, how did where have you guys landed on that issue? Yes, I Can tell who goes to Claude Ramsey's Church The way you done that whatever you can ask us 50 ,000 word question and Claude ago.

Yes, I I Think what it comes to medical professionals and diagnoses that there's a degree of caution that comes in We've talked a little bit about the difference between a new static counseling and secular counseling

Because there's about a dozen or so It might be a little off on the number there

Models in the world of psychology for how the human brain works how the human brain

Responds to its environments and a lot of it is really bad You know the class

I've been taking a church we've been talking about Freud we've been talking about Skinner We've been talking about all these different models

Leonard BF Skinner He essentially was behaviorism that it's it's it's

Rewards and risk essentially is how the brain learns And so if you want to change behavior, you just punish him for bad behavior.

It's like a dog Freud was Freud was something else man there's so much that he said

I couldn't put on Facebook, but when he came to America started teaching his ideas of psychoanalysis in New York He was walking up and down the streets one day and he leaned over to his

Buddy Carl Jung and said they have no idea that we've brought them to plague And So when we get into the world of medical professionals

There's a lot to be cautious about Because they're not diagnosing things necessarily from the presupposition of the truthfulness of Scripture There's a lot in modern psychology.

That is an attempt to make Our own understanding of the world that doesn't have

God in it. Yeah And part of what that looks like is we we make up disorders anymore

Like every which is the eye of autism and so many of the different symptoms of autism have morphed into their own disorders that now there's

Radical attachment disorder now, there's obsessive compulsive disorder now, there's this now there's that now there's auditory

Processing disorder and every single one of them just gets added to its own Disorder now and so you went from having one diagnosis to having nine yeah, and then you're just piling on more solutions to try and suppress those symptoms and restore some sense of normalcy to the to the individual and so I see a place for caution with medical

Professionalism, I'm not saying it's all bad. I'm not saying it's all good. I'm saying that there's there's a little bit of give -and -take

And that sometimes it can be helpful. Sometimes it can create unintended problems When we're getting into secular solutions to problems in God's world

I'm gonna just Throw out because I'm I'm probably the guy that's

More or less on the on this side of the aisle When I look at the medical field, you know as well,

I told you guys beforehand my father -in -law's in the hospital right now for stroke like symptoms

You know, we we have we have trusted that you know that there's not going to be anything nefarious

Going on at the hospital that hopefully They're gonna figure out his blood pressure and You know what's going on with his body?

Why his arms going numb? Why why all of these things are happening to him and they're gonna give a treatment that that will ultimately help him you know if While yet I understand the caution

I understand like yeah, you should probably do some real hardcore checking out into a lot of things

But Nonetheless this entire medical field that we do have which I believe is the act of of the

Lord's common common grace Because people live 20 years longer than what they used to live 300 years ago, maybe even shorter than that maybe 200

You know, it's probably on on average of 20 to 30, you know, maybe more years

And that's with all the stuff killing us that's with McDonald's in the picture for goodness sakes But yet and I'm not saying oh

I'm dealing with this I'm gonna run and go get a pill that will fix this issue. That is not what

I'm advocating for at all But I do know sometimes there's that there's that Slight bit of aid that that will come from it because because antidepressants does do not fix depression.

Nope That they don't what they do is they do they do tame it down some

If that's that's my personal opinion, right? I'm not you know, this is the part of the conversation where we're where we don't exactly have verses to go to That are objective that we can go.

Yes this But yeah, there's not a thou shalt not take antidepressants exactly but To make something

Copable for someone that may or not be suicidal That may or may not be, you know, you fill in the blank, you know having rabid panic attacks

You know All throughout the day You know, of course, we're gonna treat the spiritual with the spiritual right we're gonna we're gonna give the gospel, right?

We're gonna walk through spiritual disciplines with them but I'm I'm just throwing it out there that like look if this is something where there should be like If this will help you

You know Let's let's pursue that You know, we trust them with you know open -heart surgery, you know, like cutting our chests open and Digging stuff out and all the above Yeah, that was my two cents

I think I kind of threw my point out there I'm much more cynical.

I'm afraid than you are on this kind of thing I'm afraid that And that and I don't know if I say this out loud if the video come down because I know you weren't allowed to say certain things during the the pandemic without it being

You know Casted as fake or whatever Misinformation, but I think in a lot of ways they tipped their hand and in that last couple years and It's been the experience

I've had that that not all doctors are created equally and that I'm sad to say that that several of them that we've we've had

It none of them with any kind of a mental conditions, but but with physical conditions my mother -in -law passed away from ALS and Her doctor took every step available

To make her last days as miserable as they could have possibly been Every every wrong move he made against everybody else's advice

Every second opinion was against his and he wouldn't listen It was the height of arrogance and hubris.

He knew everything and no one else knew anything Things like that have given me a poor a poor pitcher and I'm tend to be somewhat skeptical whenever I show up if I'm being honest and I'm not trying to to Excuse anything.

It's just for the sake of being transparent. I tend to be somewhat more skeptical with with the doctor's

Claim that he cares about people more than than some do especially whenever you

Like I go to the doctor and he's there's always something I need to take Right, and if he wants me to take the prescription whatever pill he's writing on the prescription pen with you know the pen name and So I would say that if you're listening and you're seeking out medical advice

Multitude of counselors Don't go to and accept the first report. Not all doctors are created equally.

I do believe there's some good doctors out there There's been several good doctors that have highlighted the fact of what went on a couple years ago with the whole world was

There was some bad characters at play and the good doctors are the reason we know the bad doctors were even there so Find one that's born again.

I would say number one if you're looking for a doctor. He needs to be a believer I believe that divine healing is provided in the

Atonement and I believe that there's no healing that comes if God doesn't allow it to happen You can receive medicine if you want to but if God says no the answers no and you can medicate yourself all the way to the grave

There's no there's absolutely no substitution For facing whatever trauma has caused the depression or to sit down with someone in There and the right frame of mind

Who knows the Lord and there and their thoughts for you are for your good?

more than their own initial gain or whatever from having you as a patient and And tell them as best as you understand it what's causing your problem and Let them give you the advice that God has showed them over the years of their practice

And then if you need to find someone else and compare the answers So if I could if I could sum it up Would I be accurate in saying this if you are if you're seeking to help somebody?

do it with patience and Humility and If you are seeking help yourself

Just I'm saying it based in a different way. Do your due diligence? Sure Seek Scripture or seek

Seek all the good gifts that God has provided for us Because like you said,

I totally agree with what you said big John that Mm -hmm

God has to allow it Yeah And no matter how much medication you you take if you take a cure -all if he doesn't want to be a cure -all

It won't be a cure -all and so it's it's totally in his sovereign will What happens and so it's up to him.

So Use all the good gifts that God has provided for us

Seek first his kingdom and then all these things will be provided for you

That that would be my my advice So I saw you pull up your scripture

Tyler, did you also have any last words I thought 2nd

Corinthians 12 Um Starting at verse 7 unless I should be exalted above measure.

This is Paul talking right unless he should be he should be lifted up and and be gloried in above measure through the abundance of the revelations all the all the

Divine revelation that he got there was given to me a thorn in the flesh The messenger of Satan's to buffet me

Lest I should be exalted above all measure For this thing I besought the

Lord thrice He says I look I prayed to the Lord three times that it might depart from me and he said unto me my grace is

Sufficient for thee for my strength is made perfect and weakness

Most gladly therefore I will I Will I rather glory in my infirmities that the power of Christ may rest upon me?

therefore I take pleasure in infirmities and reproaches in necessities in Persecutions and distress for Christ's sake for when

I am weak then am I strong? Regardless of what happens right nothing that We have pointed to today

Goes outside of the hand of God I Do land on God uses means?

as as well, right Through which blessings and and curses even to come

But but yes, we trust the Lord in anything and everything and anything

Tell her any last thought No, I think we've

I think we've all pretty much hit that the nail on the head here With with trying to strike that balance

Can we do something off the off the cuff here go for it Tyler? as someone who is

More attuned to just the facts as you say it knowing that That What brother

Troy was reading that that in the areas where weakest where we're weakest God strength is made perfect What advice do you give to people who find themselves?

chronically depressed or chronically dealing with anxiety that from from I Know we've given piles of advice on what to do

But if you were sitting with them right now and there was something that you could tell them from your own walk with this in Five sentences

That you That would be your last the last words you got to tell them. What would it be?

I find a lot of comfort in Ecclesiastes 713 Consider the work of God for who can make straight what he has made crooked

Because there are times where God may from our perspective go out of his way to make things crooked

That things are not straight things are not easy things are not simple and it's okay

That there's there's an okay that we can find in that that the

God who made things crooked has not gone anywhere But he is here. He is available and he is in our midst

That's awesome. That's awesome. Thank you. Sorry to put you on the spotlight yet.

You're good Well, I haven't done it in a while so if you guys would allow me the honor

I'll I'll share the gospel tonight and only and big John You can close this out in prayer and I think that was the tremendous question

And I was thinking about what my answer would be if I was sitting with somebody and And how

I would answer that would be No matter how I feel That never changes what truth is

And so I want to remain positionally where I am Seeking God no matter how

I feel because that is the only position and place of No matter how

I feel truth never changes. So that's where I want to stay and remain and dwell

I've thought about When Becky asked this question to us earlier when she was talking about how people have maybe

Approached her and how people have approached other people that you that that harshness than rigidity of Coming at somebody's it will scripture says

Be anxious for nothing. You're anxious You're in sin and the thought that came to my mind was well

I can throw that first stone when I myself am without sin and See me.

Yes scripture does I think it's John 7 that we read that we are We are told to judge on things, but there's a heart attitude.

There's a motivation There there's a right way to approach those things but that type of rigidity and harshness often seems to come from a place of Being judgmental of someone's heart and When I am without sin myself

That's when I can cast the first stone and what that tells me is that I myself am with sin

I am no different than anybody else. I've inherited Adam sin nature because he is my federal head

Everyone after Adam has inherited that sin nature. I can't do anything but sin and Want to sin and rebel against God because of that sin nature, that's who

I was before Christ Now that I'm in Christ I have a desire and a strength within me that I didn't have before to fight against that the desire to To flee from that that I didn't have before But we are all sinners.

We have all missed the mark and because of that sin because we have broken God's law We We are headed to a place called hell, which is designed by God as a place of punishment for rebellious sinners for angels who rebelled against him and it's

Just and right for him to do that because he is he an eternally holy

God So the just and right punishment for sin against him is an eternal

Punishment we have to understand the the diagnosis of our situation and That's what scripture says

But there's hope that God so loved the world that he sent his one and only son that everyone

Believing in him would not perish but have everlasting life. There is hope there is a place of rescue and just like When it comes to our health that we've not only stopped eating bad stuff, but we put good stuff in Jesus not only

Lived a righteous life that he gives to us and credits to us

But he also died on the cross taking our place on the cross and and shed his blood

Because scripture says without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins So Jesus Christ put that on himself voluntarily so that we could be saved and it's only

Through him. Jesus says he is the way the truth and the life. Nobody comes to the father but by him

He is the only Way and means of salvation and he sits he conquered death

He pleased the father in obedience and he currently sits at God's right hand

Interceding for those who he is safe and he calls all men now to repent and believe in him and he says he will give

You a new life He will credit his righteousness to your account and forgive your sins and we can approach

God Be saved and on our way to heaven and live for him and have that new spirit

Within us that desires righteousness and hate sin because of what he did for us

And and you can have that if you will answer that call if you will submit as we have to our

King Jesus In repentance and faith, we would plead with you to repent of your sins and put your faith in Jesus Christ Amen Father we come to you in Jesus name

I want to begin by saying how thankful I am for this gospel How thankful how thankful I am

That you are who you are That we can trust in you that we can have full assurance

That with you being God, we have no reason to be anxious Lord, if there's someone who's watched this and they came looking for hope

I Pray they found it God if there's someone who's who's listened and they're at the edge of giving up Lord I pray that you'll that you'll strengthen them that you'll show them

That even though it's bad and we would we would acknowledge that it can be bad that it's just momentary

Yeah, and the glory that awaits those that are in Christ is so much more surpassing than the momentary afflictions that we go

That you could give them the strength to get through that and the hope for what comes tomorrow

We trust in you. We believe in you and we're thankful for you

Bless all those in the network and their families and bless all those that have listened.

Let your kingdom come But your will be done on earth as is in heaven

Jesus name I pray Amen Amen, I love you guys, and I appreciate you so much.

Thank you guys for watching the laborers podcast We appreciate you too. Thank you for watching and If the

Lord wills we will see you again in two weeks Thank you for joining the laborers podcast

Remember Jesus is King live in the victory of Christ Speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.