September 29, 2016 Show with Alec Millen on “Church Planting in the Inner City: Its Need & Its Challenges”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's.

Our host Chris Arnton.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the

planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Thursday

on this 29th day of September 2016.

I am so delighted to have an old friend, actually two old friends, in the studio today and also

a new friend, I hope, develops into a friendship with me.

First of all, I just returned from Lancaster, Pennsylvania after a meeting with

the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, had a nice time with Bob Brady who is the executive

director of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals which is a ministry going all the way back to

Donald Gray Barnhouse and his successor James Montgomery Boyce of 10th

Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and still exists to this day

and we are going to be manning booths, exhibitors booths, side by side

in Atlanta, Georgia this January 19th to the 21st, God willing, at the

G3 conference that you've been hearing advertised on this program and we'll be telling you more about that later.

But while there I met up with an old friend of mine, Alec Millen, who at

one time was on the staff at North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside, Queens, New York with my

friend Ed Moore is still the pastor and Alec Millen was actually

formerly with the New York Jets and the San Francisco 49ers and got

out of the NFL and went into missionary work for a while and then later into the pastorate we're going to be

hearing more about his new church plant in Lancaster, One City Church,

and that is one of the friends in the studio.

I have another old friend of mine, Pete Padro, who is not going to be an integral part of the discussion

today but I hope to have him back on the program because he has a very fascinating testimony and

before I even continue any further, Pete Padro, why don't you give a shout out to our listeners here in the.

Iron Trepans Iron audience.

I want to welcome everyone that's listening to the program and I found it a

privilege to be able to be with Chris Harnson and the brothers that

we'll be sharing today and we hope that you'll invite a friend, a neighbor,

to listen in.

There's some exciting things that God is doing and you will benefit from this program.

Thanks a lot, Pete.

My friendship.

With Pete Padro goes back to the early 1990s and he was formerly the pastor

of Church of the Good Neighbor in Spanish Harlem, which was, I don't know if it still exists, perhaps

Pete can tell me later about that, but it was the oldest Protestant Spanish -speaking church in New

York State and we have had a friendship for a number of years ever since

then and in fact my wife, my late wife, had visited with them

on a couple of occasions and had some precious memories and Pete also

anointed my mother, who was dying with pancreatic cancer, anointed her with oil

after she visited Sloan Kettering Hospital for one of her examinations and

he has a very special place in my heart so I hope to have Pete back on the program as a guest.

But as I said, Alec Millen, an old friend of mine, is our primary guest today to talk about

church planting in the inner city and before I introduce his pastoral assistant, let me welcome

you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, but for the first time in the Carlisle studio, welcome

Alec Millen.

Chris, it is a privilege to be here.

Thanks for having me.

It's great to have you, Alec, and I can honestly say that I think it's been at least a

year or two since I've laughed this hard today.

May as well.

It's good therapeutic time today.

And joining Alec on the program today is his pastoral assistant at One City Church, Kevin

Medina.

It's great to have you in the studio as well, Kevin.

Thank you, Chris.

Well, first of all, Alec, before we even go into the One City

Church that is a new church planting work in Lancaster, tell our listeners

something in an abbreviated fashion because we actually had you on the program before to give you full -blown testimony

for at least an hour about your coming to saving faith in Jesus Christ and your

experiences in the NFL and so on, but just to give us a more summarized version of that

and bring us to the present day where you just recently

left the Grace Church of Willow Valley in Pennsylvania to pursue this church

planting work.

But start off with your own background, your upbringing, and your

journey into the NFL and your.

Abbreviated version of your coming to Christ, etc.

Absolutely.

Well, I was raised in Atlanta, Georgia, the middle son of

three boys, and we were all athletic.

I come from, as they say down south, good stock.

And humble stock.

That's right.

That's right.

All of us were built by God to be athletes, although when it

comes to actually athleticism, I would say that I got the short end of that stick, so I had to play offensive line

on my brother.

Well, did any of your brothers go to the NFL?

No, but they did not.

So growing up in Atlanta, I was raised in the Roman Catholic faith.

Mom was very faithful in bringing her sons to church.

Was that a rare thing in Atlanta?

I don't know anything really.

About it.

The image you get for Atlanta and the Bible Belt is that it would be mainly non -Catholic,

or mainly fundamentalist, evangelical, Pentecostal, Baptist.

Well, growing up,.

If they weren't Catholic, they were Methodist or Baptist, although I was pretty well insulated.

Although we had friends, I went to Catholic elementary school, Catholic high school, and so most of

the friendships that I had would have been Roman Catholic background as well.

It was when I went to college at the University of Georgia, I was playing there, that

the gospel was explained to me.

And although I rejected it for some time, interestingly, it was there

that some people who knew me began to pray for my conversion.

I didn't know that they were doing this.

And for some time, well over a year, at least one of my teammates at the University of Georgia,

who himself has been a church planter in Boston for the last seven or eight years,

Dan Rogers, he began to pray for me daily to come to know Christ.

And though he didn't lead me to the Lord, the night I was converted in May

of 1991, the next morning I woke up.

And truthfully, I didn't know that I had been saved.

I didn't know there was a saved to be.

I didn't have that kind of vocabulary at that point.

All I knew is that I wanted to know Jesus Christ.

And so the next morning I woke up and I knew something had changed.

And so I called this guy who was an outspoken follower of Jesus and

called him up.

And I said, Dan, I need you to come and talk with me.

Something happened last night.

And so he came.

I shared my experience.

He walked me through the gospel truths.

And I said, I believe that.

I didn't believe it yesterday, but I believe it today.

And so that was 25 years ago this year that God saved my

soul, rescued me from his own wrath by his own mercy.

And I'm so grateful for that.

After playing for another season and a half at the University of Georgia, I

was drafted to play in the NFL by the New York Jets, which was a great, great privilege

and had a very short NFL career.

In fact, people get, when they introduce me, they think it's something special to say that I played in the NFL.

And I'm quick to say that I actually didn't play in the NFL.

I practiced.

And I was too much of a liability to protect the quarterback.

Actually, though, in God's goodness and kindness to me, though, I probably would have never gone to New York,

having grown up in the South.

And there's these natural prejudices against New York and all this.

But it was in New York that God grabbed a hold of me.

Theologically, I came to really know the Bible there.

I was taught the Bible there at North Shore Baptist.

Pastor Ed Moore really discipled me.

I cared for my soul.

And more than being able just to share my testimony, which of course I had at that point,

really began to teach me the word of God.

So I was only there for a short time before I went to California.

And then God...

You were drafted by the 49ers or traded?

I was traded to the 49ers.

That's correct.

I was out there for just a short time before an injury ended my career.

But that was a bittersweet, that was a bitter pill, because I knew my

football career was over.

And that had been sort of the single most influential thing in my life over a long period of time.

It was wonderful because I had been sensing God's calling in my life in the ministry.

And so God released me from the NFL and I began pursuing seminary

education and met my wife in seminary.

Then we moved back to New York where I was a youth pastor and then a church planter up there.

And then North Shore Baptist Church sent us out as missionaries in 2001.

Actually, 9 -11 was one of my last things as a staff

member of church there in New York City.

I cared for our congregation through that very trying time in New York

before they sent us off into the mission field.

We spent 10 years in missions, much of that in East Africa doing Bible translation,

as well as reaching out to Muslim communities in Tanzania,

trying to bring the gospel there.

And then God in 2010 brought us back to the States and I

came on staff at a small church in Southern Lancaster County, which was a

wonderful experience for us.

It grew and it was very nurturing for our family.

It had a lot of tension, a lot of stress being on the mission field.

And then after a few years there, I began to sense God's call to do something in the inner city of Lancaster, which leads

us to.

Today.

Great.

In fact, a side note, the very first

inclination or the very first hearing that I had or learning

that the terrorist attack had taken place on September 11th, 2001

was when I had my TV off, my radio off, and

a sales meeting that I was supposed to be at in New Jersey had been canceled.

I flicked on my computer and I'm reading my email and Ed

Moore, your former pastor, is sending out prayer requests that

the people that were members of your church or family members got out of

the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center safely.

And then I'm reading another email that the Twin Towers have collapsed and we have no confirmation yet

that our loved ones in the church have safely gotten out.

Please continue to pray.

And I'm thinking to myself, what is he talking about?

And I go over and I turn on the TV and I see the image of the Twin Towers on fire

and the caption at the bottom says, the Twin Towers have fallen.

And I'm looking at them standing on fire, not realizing that I'm just watching older footage and then

later found out what happened.

I mean, just obviously that's anybody old enough to have been

alive during that, they're going to know exactly what was going on when they heard about it.

Yeah, those were tough days, terrible, terrible days.

But the North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside, from what I understand, I don't think that you lost any members though.

We did not.

God was very kind to us.

Many, many churches lost good people that day.

And so was it from there that you, how did this first

impression, before we even get to the current church plant, the first desire,

the initial desire to go to the mission field, where did that come from?

Knowing that the perpetrators of this attack were Muslims, it's kind of interesting how

many people might react with hatred.

You seem to be reacting with, we've got to save these people.

Well, it was God's, the beginning of God's call on my

life towards the mission field happened shortly after my conversion in

1992.

And what was happening is I had literally just been drafted into the NFL.

And it was, I think within four weeks, I was still in Athens, Georgia.

I was at a church there in Beach Haven Baptist Church there in Athens and

sitting on the back row.

And there was a lady who was sharing her story.

She had been a missionary.

She was just your little old lady missionary.

And she said something I'll never forget.

She said, there are people who will live out their lives and they will die and they will stand before God

and will be judged to an eternal hell.

And they have never rejected Jesus Christ.

And as a young believer, that sounded quite provocative and didn't sound quite right.

And then she followed it up very quickly and said, they've never heard about Jesus in order

to reject him.

And I remember my heart pounding out of my chest thinking, this

Jesus who has rescued me and who is completely revolutionizing my life.

There are people who have never heard of him.

That was just astounding thought to me.

And so it was as powerful as the day that I was converted,

almost as powerful.

And I just knew that I knew that I knew that God was calling me to be a missionary.

Actually, this is a story for another day, because it would take way too long.

But I actually went home two days later and told my parents,

who were of course, thrilled that I was getting ready to go play in the NFL.

But I went home and told them that I would not be playing in the NFL, that I was going to Africa to be a missionary.

And they just thought I had lost my mind.

But anyway, I did wind up playing for a season in the NFL before God eventually

released me to go to the mission field.

So 9 -11 was not a deterrent towards that.

The way I view things, until you know Christ, you're a slave to sin.

And sin will lead some people to do one thing and others to

do something else, but everybody needs Christ.

And so my heart and my experience has led me to believe that the vast majority of

Muslims have never heard enough about the gospel to

know what it means to be saved and to believe in Christ.

But there's a great movement in the Muslim world

of people coming to know Christ these days.

So.

Praise God for that.

Amen.

Yeah, I keep hearing reports of that from my friend David Wood, who is an apologist,

who's basically his emphasis is reaching out to the Muslim

community.

He has read the Quran many times over, is extremely familiar with it.

And I hear reports from him about Muslims in other parts of the world coming to Christ.

And of course, my friend Dr. James R. White, who I've actually orchestrated debates

between him and Muslims, and he has done many more other than the ones I have

orchestrated.

I orchestrated his very first debate with a Muslim, with Hamza Abdul Malik, who was a, he

called himself a Christian convert to Islam, but I think he was more from a nominal type of

a Christian upbringing.

But that was James's first debate at the, what was then called the Bible Baptist Church of Syos at Long

Island.

David Leverence, or Richard Leverence, I think his name was, was the pastor, and who was actually

on staff at Charles Stanley's church years ago, was the token Calvinist in the

church.

And that was during a time when James White knew very little about Islam, so he defended

the deity of Christ in that debate.

And now he's become one of the foremost Christian experts on Islam on

the globe.

Of course, he would probably never describe himself that way, but it's just a fact he is.

Well, I know we're not going to spend a lot of time talking about this now, but one thing I would like to just

encourage is that the church globally needs to be

praying for the Muslim world, and we need to be praying for God, and not just

simple prayers, but on your knees begging God to reveal himself through the gospel and raising up

laborers to go to this mission field, because it is white.

On the harvest.

Amen.

So we are now at the point, let me first give our email address, chrisarnsen at gmail .com is our email

address if you'd like to send us a question for Alec Millen or his pastoral assistant Kevin

Medina.

And that's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable

due to any particular circumstance that may be involved in your question that

either requires that you remain anonymous or just makes you feel more comfortable.

Perhaps you're bringing up something in your own church, and obviously we would rather you don't bring up

anything negative about your own congregation publicly.

So we respect your request to be anonymous if that's the case.

You are serving at the church that you mentioned before, Grace Church in Willow

Valley, and when did it come to your mind that I think that it's time for

me to pursue.

A church planning work in the inner city of Lancaster?

It was about three years ago that I approached our senior pastor and

associate pastor there, John Smith, who's our senior pastor and Al Riley, and

told them that I was sensing that God's call was to move into leading a church and towards

planting.

And so they almost immediately sensed that this was something to

pursue.

And so they asked me to do some demographic studies on where, because Lancaster, many people who visited Lancaster,

Pennsylvania would say, why do you need another church in Lancaster, Pennsylvania?

There's all kinds of churches in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

But I would say that if you look

in the inner city of Lancaster, even though it's only 60 ,000 people, the population,

it has all the same issues and good stuff about a

city that you would find even in New York or Philadelphia or Boston.

And so we began to do a demographic study, and we were looking for churches

that were preaching the gospel.

And as we looked, if you cut the city of Lancaster

in quadrants, the northeast quadrant of Lancaster City, we just saw there was just really a dearth of churches

that were not, there are very few churches that were preaching the gospel.

And not that there were none, but for 12 ,000 people who live in that area,

there was just a handful of churches that were proclaiming the gospel.

So we said, well, let's investigate whether there's a need there.

And what we found is that it's also the most diverse ethnically, as well as

socioeconomically area of Lancaster City.

And so it became clear to me, at least, that this is

where there would be a good opportunity to plant a church, but not just a church.

We really want a church that will reflect the kingdom of God and the

multi -ethnic family that God is putting together.

And so why not do it in a place that is the most diverse

land in all of Lancaster.

County, right there in the northeast quadrant.

And I had a lesson that I learned about Lancaster

that I originally thought, whenever I heard of Lancaster, that it was really just a

lot of plush rolling farmland and Amish people riding around on horse and buggy.

And I had been to sight and sound theater also, but I did see a lot of Amish folk around there.

But I did not know of the more urban aspect of

Lancaster.

And by the way, I had a phenomenal lunch today at a Puerto Rican restaurant.

What was the name of that place?

El Sabor Latino.

Say that again?

El Sabor Latino.

I'll take your word for it.

I know the second part's Latino.

What does that mean?

The Latin flavor.

Oh, okay.

That was really phenomenal.

And by the way, that was Kevin Medina, the pastoral assistant that I introduced earlier.

And now you've also added to your ministerial team, Kevin Medina, who I just

asked about the restaurant pastoral assistant at One City Church.

Tell us how you came to meet Alec and what exactly your function is there at the

One City Church.

Well, thank you, Chris.

My senior year of college at Lancaster Bible College, one of my

classmates, his name is Adam Swift.

He was in my pastoral care class.

And he said, while I was working, he was sitting with Alec in the

dining hall, cafeteria of the school.

And he said, hey, Kevin, I want you to meet this guy.

He's starting a church in downtown Lancaster, multicultural.

Check it out.

Like, sure.

And so we connected.

And he's like, um, I really like the vision of the church.

My wife and I, at that time, my fiance, we got really close to Alec and his

family.

And even for decision makings in our lives, we saw

them as mentors.

And it was such an encouraging time in my, I was

married, I got married about eight months ago.

Yeah.

So even during this season of life, a lot of hard stuff have come, but

we have had Alec and his family supporting us.

And in June, he said, hey, I want you to be part of the team.

Um, so I was like, I thought I was already.

No.

Um, so one of my roles over there is, um, I, I help with the

youth ministry.

Like the youth ministry has been an encouraging time.

It is funny to see that the only white people is Alec's daughter.

Then you have Hispanic.

We have a kid that he doesn't know how to speak English.

Actually.

It just been three months here in Lancaster.

We recently just got two Asian kids.

Um, then most of them are Hispanic.

Uh, the majority of him, of them, they live with whether, uh,

one parent or with their uncles, with their grandma, grandparents.

So it is amazing to see them.

I, every, every Thursday, uh, in the inner city ministry, if I sit, if I

come there and I sit down and I say, all right, I'm waiting for the kids to come.

They don't come.

So I walk around them.

I go pick them up.

I'm like, Hey man, are you coming today?

No.

Yeah, sure.

Sure.

So, oh, let's go look for this guy now.

Hey, are you coming today?

So it's just been an awesome time in the past four weeks.

We have grew to about 20 kids.

Wow.

And yeah, we've been meeting for one month.

We didn't know any of these kids, uh, five weeks ago.

And now there's about 20 kids who've already connected.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yes.

And it's.

Incredible, you know, cause a lot of the parents, they don't even know what, what their kids are doing and they don't have to be there, but they

come and that is just amazing.

Um, gone to some other soccer games and another, and it's just incredible to see

what, what God is doing among the teenagers there.

Some of them, they, they have no clue about the gospel.

Um, about two weeks ago or three weeks ago, we, my wife and I took this 11 year old girl

to sight and sound to see Samson.

It was her first time hearing about Samson.

Never heard about Samson in her life.

11 years old.

I was, I was shocked, you know, um, but it was so encouraging and we were able to share the

gospel with her.

Um, another role that I have, I build relationship with the community.

I get to talk to a lot of Hispanic people.

Um, and on a Sunday morning, if there is Hispanic people that come, I translate the

sermon for them live.

And I, I, I also oversee children's ministry.

And Kevin basically does everything and, uh, yeah, he's,

he's a busy guy, but he's, he's young and he doesn't have kids yet.

So we're going to,.

We're going to burn him out.

And, uh, we're going to get going to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with pastor Alec Millen and pastoral assistant Kevin Medina of one city church

in Lancaster, right after these messages.

So don't go away.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in.

Our guest today is Alec Millen who is the pastor of One City

Church in Lancaster, Pennsylvania and he is also joined by Kevin Medina, a

pastoral assistant at One City Church.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at

gmail .com and we do have a listener who is the

headmaster of Grace Christian Academy in Merrick, Long Island, New York, Steve Schultz.

I usually don't give last names out but I will make an exception with someone like Steve who is

operating a wonderful and a very important ministry out there.

He says, Hi Chris, please give Alec a big hug for me and he says, Here's my question.

Knowing that there are quite often many physical needs in the inner city, what do

you do strategically to meet those needs while preventing them from

becoming central issues?

Well Steve, I refuse to allow Chris to give me a hug

but that's a great question.

I think that the thing I would say first is that

you maintain that one thing and one thing only will be the

center of the ministry and that is the proclamation of the gospel of the

historical person of Jesus of Nazareth who lived a perfect life, died a

propitiatory death as a substitute on behalf of

God's elect, was buried, was resurrected on the third day, has

ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand until he comes again.

I think if you commit that that will be your center and nothing will take its

place.

Then when the pull of ministry and there are plenty of ministry opportunities comes

upon you, and it doesn't just have to be material needs, it can sometimes be

just the volume of, for instance, we have a young congregation at One

City Church and a lot of people getting married, a lot of people having

issues coming through, some of the early struggles of owning their faith

once they've left their home and starting families, all those kind of things can

vie for your attention.

So we're committed to keeping the preaching of God's Word central in what we do.

Now when those opportunities present themselves, we evaluate them and

one thing that we do at One City Church is we believe that the spread of the gospel

happens best when God's people take that message which

is so important to them and spread it in their day -to -day life.

And so we don't want to be, we are, in fact if you came to

our church you would say, boy you're light programmatically.

We want our time together to be worshipful, that we spend enough time in

one another's presence that we can know each other and fellowship with one another, but we don't have a lot of extra

programs and that's intentional because we want our people out there sharing the gospel, sharing the

faith where they spend 90 percent of their time.

And periodically we'll have an opportunity presented to us that we feel

like God really would want us to engage in.

Now we're a church plant, we're very young, we're not a hundred people yet, so

resources, manpower, we don't have a whole lot of that.

So we have to pick and choose wisely.

One of the things that we felt like God would have us to do, meeting kind of I think

along the lines of what you're talking about, is there is a ministry,

faith -based ministry, Christian ministry in Lancaster called the Way Recovery Houses, and it is

helping people fight through the addiction, their addictions,

most of the men.

So they have these homes in Lancaster City that once people have come out of detox they will go into

and they look for churches, gospel preaching churches that will adopt a home, and the men who

live in those homes will come and be part of the church that has adopted them.

Now there's six guys who live in the house that we've adopted, some of them are Christians, some of them are not,

but they're all welcome, we speak openly.

But we feel like that is an important thing for the church to be a part of.

We realize that these guys, you know, they have unique needs, they're not the

only ones who have needs, but they have unique needs coming out of an addiction lifestyle, and so we felt like that's

something God wanted us to do as a church.

But even in that, it's always the proclamation of the gospel that we keep central, and

I guess, you know, Kevin, wouldn't you say that we sort of evaluate what we're doing, and I think if we got

off balance, we have one another as well as our other elder

who we would speak and say, hey, you know, we're going to make sure we're not focusing too much.

How would you answer that.

Question?

Yeah, I think so.

Like a couple of times a month ago you had the opportunity to, hey, what do you think if we do

this?

I think it was like internship or practicum talking about it, hey, let's not.

That requires a lot of time and trying to be wise into should we proceed into doing that,

and we realize that right now in the first stages is not the wisest thing,

though it sounds really good, you know, and just trying to like be

wise into not getting into too much just because you want to be a church plant.

Correct.

Yeah, and I also think like there's.

An opportunity for us to do like a food pantry kind of

ministry, and that would be wonderful.

I mean, there are ways to set up a food pantry that would not be a huge

financial burden for us as a church.

However, if that's going to happen, that needs to grow organically out of the heart of someone who's a member of

One City Church who feels that this is God's call in their life.

We would support them.

We would try to resource and network them with others who have that same heart, but we don't want it to come

programmatically kind of top down if that's the ministry

that God's called, and we would also encourage if someone were to do something like that,

don't be just handing out food.

Make sure that the gospels preach during those times when people come because who knows, that might be the

time when someone comes to saving faith in Jesus.

Amen,.

And wouldn't you also say, perhaps I take a little bit of exception to

the phraseology Steve used, because wouldn't you say that according to James, meeting the

physical needs of people are central issues, but they're not the gospel?

I mean, they are important because without them,.

Your faith is dead.

That's the way.

It adorns the gospel, sure.

When Christians live exceptional lives of service, with expecting nothing in return,

I think we reflect the heart of God.

And what are we giving God in return to God for all

that He's taken from us, all of our shame, all of our guilt.

We return with thanksgiving, and so when we can do that to others who have nothing to offer in return, I think

that glorifies God, and certainly I know Steve,.

That's his heart as well.

And by the way, let me give a plug to Grace Christian Academy.

Their website is gca, for Grace Christian Academy, li, for

longisland .com, gcali .com.

Thanks a lot Steve, and keep up the good work there in Merrick at Grace Christian Academy.

Yeah, I had the pleasure of meeting the pastors at

Manor Community Church.

I don't know if you're familiar with that church, Alec.

They're in New York City in the Greenwich Village area, and they have a soup kitchen,

but they do preach the gospel to these people, and I heard

the story of a Wiccan witch

who was also a transsexual who was recommending this soup

kitchen at Manor Community Church to those involved in homosexual activity in

New York City, and one of those very individuals who was recommended to go to this

soup kitchen was later asked by the Wiccan witch, so did you go to the soup kitchen?

He said yes, and I believe what they're saying is true.

I am a Christian now, and he was urging the Wiccan witch to go there for much more than food.

Wow.

And so hopefully that Wiccan witch will eventually come to the saving grace of Christ.

Don't you think that we sometimes, through our own pride and the

self -righteousness that we all unconsciously have in some measure, we look at somebody like that and

we say there's no way that person is ever going to get saved, and yet when you

say things like that, you're.

Actually saying God cannot do something.

Right.

Well, Chris, going back to my own testimony, I told you about Dan, my teammate

who prayed for me for over a year.

The reason that he prayed for me over that year is because prior to that, he had been trying to witness to

our teammates at the University of Georgia, those that he knew were lost, like myself, and

nobody was interested, and so he talked to the team chaplain and said, what do we do about this?

No one is interested in the gospel, and so the team chaplain, whose name was Ray,

encouraged him to make a list of the 10 guys that you will commit to praying for daily, and I want

you, instead of choosing the ones you think, man, they're almost there, they're almost in the camp, I want you to make a list of 10

people who you think there is not a snowball's chance in hell of getting saved, and let's start praying for

them and see what God does, and you know who was number one on that list?

You.

I was.

I was number one on his, I was the first person who came to his mind, like this guy is never getting saved.

Wow.

And he prayed for me every day for over a year, and God, he didn't lead me to Christ,

but he was the first, and I called him the day after God converted me.

I called him because he was the only person that I knew, so not that I've always lived with this reality

or realization, but if God can save me from the background that he did save

me, he can save anybody.

I believe that.

We have a listener from Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, Tyler, who asks, would the greatest

example in the New Testament of church planting be the ministry of the Apostle Paul?

Is that for me or for you?

Well, all of the questions are for my guests.

My listeners have already learned a long time ago that I'm a stupid guy with a good radio voice and smart

friends.

Hey, Tyler, I would say that the Apostle Paul is a great

model.

Certainly, he had some advantages being a single man

without some of the things that come with a family.

He was able to move freely.

He also was an extremely learned man.

He understood culture.

He understood how to cross cultures, to speak into those, to look for those

entry points that every culture has.

I would say, yes, the Apostle Paul is probably the model, but I would say the

greatest model was the one who said, he will build the church.

That's the Lord Jesus Christ.

He's the one who does it.

He's the one who did it for Paul.

He's the one who will do it for One City Church.

All around the world, it is Christ who's building his church.

Of course, what do we take from from the Lord Jesus?

We take humility.

Of course, we take the message of his salvation that he secured

at Calvary and when he rose from the dead, but his humility, his meekness, sometimes

his just in -your -face boldness at times, ministry calls for that.

Oftentimes, it is just the meekness and the love of Christ

for the unlovely, those people who are convinced that God would

never have anything to do with them.

That's who Jesus goes after.

Of course, once you realize doctrine, you realize it is the Spirit of God that

produces that meekness within a person who becomes a seeker.

I think study the Gospels, study the book of Acts, and the Apostle Paul

would be certainly a great model.

Thanks a lot, Tyler.

The Apostle Paul, don't you think, smacks or

militates against our presuppositions that we normally have

when we wrongly think.

The only people that I'm going to be of any use to in the Kingdom of God as

far as evangelism and bringing the Gospel to them are people who are just like me?

And you have a lot of churches who model their evangelistic programs and

structure regarding we'll have the black folks evangelize the blacks in the community, the

Hispanic folks minister to the Hispanics in the community, and I understand that sometimes there's a language reason,

but there are other reasons that I think are fallacious, where you have the Apostle Paul,

you would think, you know, Saul of Tarsus, the fire -breathing Pharisee who is having men and

women round up to be executed for their faith in Christ, he gets saved, and you would think,

well, the logical thing to do is this guy's going to be the Apostle to the Jews, to bring the Jews

primarily to saving faith or to be used as an evangelist to them, and although

Paul did preach to Jews, he was the Apostle to the Gentiles.

Yeah, well, you know, in the book of Ephesians, that

cultural tension between Jew and Gentile is addressed there, and

it's the reason we chose the name for our church, One City Church, is you see Paul's addressing

this tension in chapter 4 of Ephesians, where he says, there is one body and one spirit, just

as you were called into the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one

God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

He's, you know, he is hammering these guys to say, it's not a Jewish church, it's not a Gentile church, we

are one body of Christ, and Kevin and I

are passionate about this.

We don't see each other in categories, we see each other as brothers in Christ.

Kevin's from Honduras, I'm from Atlanta, Georgia.

We live and we have intentionally planted in a neighborhood where there's Asians and blacks and

people from Muslim backgrounds and Catholic backgrounds and atheistic backgrounds and

rich people and poor people, and it's like, we believe when God saves and converts, He puts us into one

family, and so we want to be reflective of that, and I think that you have to fight for that, though, because we are

in a day when it's, you know, blame it on what you want to blame it on.

We divide over the most simple things, and so we are intentional to fight

for that.

Unity that Christ purchased.

And by the way, since you mentioned Honduras, I just found out before the show started from one of my guests

here, Kevin, that you have a friend in Honduras who.

Listens to Iron Sharpens Iron.

Yeah, he just told me today, like, man, I listen to that podcast.

Oh wow, that's something.

Well, what's his name?

Henry.

Henry, hey, here's a shout out to Henry in Honduras.

Keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron, and we hope that you actually chime in occasionally with

questions for our guests.

In fact, Henry, if you send me your email address, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, I can send you

emails notifying you ahead of time about the guests and topics that we have.

Hector, sorry, I said Henry.

Well, that's the Spanish version.

No, it's Hector.

I said Henry, I was Hector.

That's a good friend.

Oh, but that's not a Spanish version of Henry?

No.

Oh, it's not, okay.

Well, somebody named Henry in Honduras immediately perked up because he

heard that somebody knew about him listening to Iron Sharpens Iron, and he didn't even know that they were aware of

that fact, and now he's being ordered to leave his home and horrible things are happening.

But Hector, thanks for listening to Iron Sharpens Iron.

So, I'm sure that one of the things that planting a church

involves is overcoming frustration and impatience when you

have to deal with sometimes waiting to see fruit from your labors, and it may

take a while, and all kinds of things like that.

Just to speak a bit about, because of the fact I know that you believe in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace,

doesn't that give you an extra measure of patience?

Well, I believe in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, and that certainly helps, but I am a sinner

who is saved by Sovereign Grace, and that sinner part of me still holds too

much sway in my life.

I thank God that Christ's work on my behalf is what God

accepts, but I wish I had more patience.

I guess that's what I'm trying to say.

Planting a church, this is the second church that I've been involved in the church plant.

The first one was in New York City, in Richmond Hill, on the Brooklyn -Queens border.

I would say that that one required more patience for me.

I'm not exactly sure why this one.

We're just sensing a season of God's blessing from the start.

It's been amazing.

Like Kevin had mentioned earlier, the teenagers who are coming.

I think there's, because we have intentionally positioned ourselves

as a doctrines of grace preaching church, we preach expositional sermons,

we're going through the Gospel of John right now, and we're just explaining what the

Bible says.

I think there's a movement of people who want that, and so they're seeking that.

I'm not sure whether that's because of things like the Gospel

Coalition or Acts 29 or whatnot, where people who are more persuaded towards reform, they're

looking for that.

We have sensed that, but certainly there's challenges.

We don't have a building that we own.

We've already had to move because we were renting space, and it

just was no longer conducive.

The Lord is good, and we're also trying to construct a ministry where it's not dependent

upon a building long -term.

We'll take what God gives us, and right now He's given us something really sweet, and we want to use it for His

glory.

What I have found, Chris, and I think you know this as well, is that when you preach of God's sovereignty,

it just stirs the heart of believers.

Now, at first, when people are confronted with the absolute sovereignty of God,

when you're first exposed to that, it kind of kicks against your self -righteous and your pride and

that sense of, I must have done something in this, or what about those who aren't?

All those questions come up, but once you see it in the Scripture and then you begin to build your worldview

around, boy, God is sovereign, it just lays waste to when trials come.

You can really trust Him.

God doesn't protect you from trials when you believe this stuff, but He sure does give you an anchor when you realize He

may be in control, and through His sovereignty, He's allowed this intense suffering, but it is nowhere

near as bad as being under His wrath and judgment, and He loves me unconditionally.

He proved that at the cross.

One thing that's encouraged me over the years,.

I was saved in the mid-'80s, and I can recall for quite a number of years

when going to Bible conferences that were theologically reformed in their emphasis,

the audience would very much resemble perhaps

the dining area at a Waspie Yacht Club where the only variance in

appearance was white, off -white, and lily -white as far as the complexion,

and since then, I can tell you it's such a joy to see so many people of

all different races who have been coming to the Doctrines of Grace and meeting

more and more pastors who are African -American and Hispanic who are on fire for

these things, and Kevin, in your journey, when did you first discover these

truths and embrace them?

Well, Chris, I come from a third -world country, Honduras,

and the church I came from was very prosperity, gospel -driven, Pentecostal.

They taught you how to speak in tongues.

This is where you were raised in that religion?

Yeah, I was raised in that, and so they would tell me, just open your mouth and

whatever comes.

So I was raised in that, and when I had the opportunity to come to the United States and God opened the

doors for me to go to LBC, I was challenged with.

The Doctrine of Grace. Lancaster Bible College.

Yeah, at Lancaster Bible College, I was challenged with the Doctrine of Grace.

My professors would sit with me, and actually, my wife,

she's probably listening right now.

I love her, by the way.

You're not getting ready to throw your wife under the bus, are you?

No, no.

Okay, never a good idea.

She always tells this story.

When we were dating, she said that one time I told her that she was probably not saved because she didn't

speak in tongues.

That's how far I was.

Wow, because that's not even a common thought in prosperity gospel, is it?

Yeah, it's...

Isn't that more of a oneness Pentecostal kind of thing?

It is mostly Pentecostal charismatic, but it goes to the fact that I think that what I told her

was, I don't think you're fully there.

I think you need more, and there's no baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes subsequent,

which I don't believe that anymore.

But throughout Lancaster Bible College, my years, I was challenged in what I was reading the

Word of God, and just God opened my eyes, and I was like, wow, this

is...

It just felt such a relief.

So when he says that, in the aspect that the view that I had of God was of a God that

he was sitting over there in the sky, mean God, who erased me of the book, write me

again, erase me from the book, write me again.

So having the confidence and the freedom and knowing, man, I sinned, but I know that

I'm not losing my salvation, and whether God is working through me or in me, and it is

such a freedom.

So there are some on the faculty at Lancaster Bible College who believe in the doctrines of.

Grace?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

A lot of...

Most of them.

Really?

Most of them, yeah.

That's good.

Well, praise God.

We are going to another station break, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our

email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Pastor Alec Millen and Kevin Medina, pastoral assistant of One City Church

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Welcome back, this is Chris Ornson, and may I have a drumroll please, because I'm about to read

my very first email from a listener in Honduras.

Hector writes, Hi Chris, my name is Hector from Honduras, not Henry.

Some time ago found your podcast through a post from Solid Ground Christian Books.

I love reading, and I was looking for some sound doctrinal books to purchase.

It has been a blessing for me to learn from you and from your ministry.

I once saw in YouTube a James White debate that you introduced.

I think I know what he's talking about, probably the baptism debate with Bill Shishko and James White.

In Honduras, we are just waking up to the doctrines of grace.

As Kevin said in your program, there is a lot of prosperity gospel churches in Latin America.

I thank the Lord that now, thanks to internet, we can have all these

resources available to us.

May the Lord bless you always in your ministry, your brother in Christ, Hector.

Thank you so much, that was very encouraging for you to take the time to respond to

my discussion about you.

Glad you were listening.

He brings up an interesting point.

You were going to say.

Something.

Yeah, a couple of weeks, I think next week, one of the leaders from his church is coming here.

I was talking to Hector, and it is a fantastic story about my brother.

My brother never believed in the doctrines of grace, and I was praying, crying out to God, like, God, open the

doors for a church, a Bible -believing church in Honduras.

I started a gospel coalition, and I found one church in the biggest city in Honduras, in Petrusula, where I live,

one church that is part of this.

I said, Samuel, you should go check out this church.

He went, and he came back and said, man, I never heard the gospel that way.

He now has been going to that church growing up, taking my younger brother, so they've been growing.

He was saying, hey, man, I love reading.

With Alec, we were talking.

I said, hey, how about we send some books there?

Because he was telling me that if you go to a Christian bookstore, you'll find Joe Austin, Benny Hinn, Joyce Mayers.

Those are big books, but if you find the Nine Marks, they cost twice as much.

Really?

Yeah.

We were going to send a couple of books to them from the Nine Marks,.

The gospel coalition, which is just a blessing.

Oh, praise God.

This affinity that seems to be present with those in the Spanish

-speaking countries in the prosperity gospel, the thing that strikes me

as odd is, can that last long when people who are in poverty, now

I'm not making a broad -brushed stereotypical statement that everybody in Spanish countries

are in poverty, Spanish -speaking countries, but obviously there are a lot of them, and

there would be, I would imagine, after a number of years, if not decades, of

seeing that this prosperity gospel isn't proving to be true because very few are becoming

financially prosperous.

Do you see any kind of a backlash from that?

Is that one of the reasons why perhaps people are beginning to be involved in an exodus out of that

movement into sounder doctrine?

Yeah.

I think that one of the things that's happening mostly in Honduras and Latino countries is that they're

starting to wake up, and I think there's a Reformed Baptist pastor, his name is Miguel Nunez.

He put it in a really cool perspective.

He said, we look at a time wise right now, we're at 5 a .m., in which people are starting to see

the harm that prosperity gospel is bringing.

We're not at noon yet, where it's wide open and it's bright, and we're not at 6 p .m.,

where it is completely Reformed, but people are starting to wake up.

The hard part is that they're realizing, and I'm sharing with my dad, is saying,

whose fault is that?

You're praying to God that you want more money, and more of this, and more of

this, but it doesn't happen.

Does it happen because you're in sin, or why does it happen?

But I tell him, hey, we as Christians, suffering is going to happen,

and to live in that is a joy.

Like Alec was saying, that though we are suffering, we praise God that we're

not going to hell.

The prosperity gospel that says, you give a dollar, and you're going to have $10, what if that

doesn't happen?

What if that $10 doesn't happen?

They don't see it like, for me, giving, it's an act of just like, God, I

trust you.

This is yours.

I give you everything I have.

I give you what I have, and sometimes I know that next day something

happens, but sometimes God bless me through health.

Sometimes God's health helps me through someone blessing me, encouraging me.

So it is not always monetary, and that's the problem with the prosperity gospel, I think.

Pete.

One of the things that I see about the prosperity gospel is the way that it's formulated.

It has a get out of jail free card.

Built into it is that if it doesn't work for someone, then the blame falls on the individual,

not on the message of the preacher.

So all of a sudden, well, I didn't get $10.

I gave a dollar.

I didn't get $10.

Well, that's because you didn't believe.

So it's an introspective thing where the preacher gets off the hook.

It's guilt laden.

It's completely antithetical to the gospel, because one, it doesn't make Christ the treasure, the

pearl of great price, but it also doesn't, there's no freedom in that.

There's no sense of deliverance and being in the grace of God.

If there is an upside, it stresses, even though it's

misplaced, I think it stresses the fact that God does respond when we

act in obedience because of our faith.

So I think that's something that the Bible certainly commands us to, but it puts this

wicked twist on it where it's exalting the gifts of God rather than God himself

as the final treasure that we're supposed to pursue.

People are running from the church in Honduras.

When I told my family, my secular family, that I'm going to

school to be a pastor, the first thing they told me was, oh, so you're going to be rich?

Because that's the view that they have of a pastor.

Yeah.

Wow.

It's kind of ironic that people who claim to be Bible believers,

and one of the most often quoted verses in all of the Bible that even

secularists and unbelievers and non -Christians, even though they misquote it usually,

it's still a main idea is still coming through in the

misquoting, but the love of money is the root of all

kinds of evil, and that really does manifest

itself very vividly and clearly in the Word of

Faith prosperity gospel movement because the love of money seems to be driving them more than

anything that involves.

I mean, I've heard a lot of prosperity gospel preachers, and there is

nothing that I hear about sin and repentance, about the atoning sacrifice of

Christ, and if it is spoken of, it's certainly a minority

of the times that it's spoken about.

I mean, it's deplorable, but I'm assuming that

Honduras, where you're from, is predominantly Roman.

Catholic.

I'm assuming that.

Well, if you go to Google, you put Honduras, it's going to probably say 55 Catholic, 45 Protestant,

but the second you start, when you see that Protestant, if you start looking into that, it's

probably like 1 sovereign grace Protestant, and then the other one, prosperity gospel,

very Pentecostal charismatic, and that's why when we think about going to, that's why my heart is to go back

to Honduras and help leaders to do expositional preaching and do

an exegetical.

Preaching.

Yeah, that actually surprised me, though, that even Protestantism in general would be that high percentage, but

it's interesting, though, that although that many people may scratch their head and wonder why I'm saying this because

on its surface, what I'm about to say may sound like it's not true, but I think that there is a

lot of commonality between Roman Catholicism and the

abuses of the Pentecostal and charismatic movement, and I want to make it clear that I'm not broad brushing

those movements.

I have dear friends who are very sound in many ways, and I have minor disagreements with them

who are even Pentecostal pastors and charismatic pastors, so I'm not broad brushing them all, but

the whole earthliness,

the sensuality of it, and I'm not speaking in sexual terms.

I'm talking about things that appeal to the senses.

There's so much commonality when you have people who, on one hand, the Roman Catholic

wants the smells and the bells and the religiosity that appeals to the

physical senses, and then on the Pentecostal side, the excited modes of

worship where there's lots of dancing and jumping up and down, and you are only

in the spirit if you have a big smile on your face and your hands are waving in the air, and even the

miraculous where Roman Catholics might be more stuck in the past with their

focus on miracles of the alleged miracles of saints and so on, and even what they would call the

miracle that takes place in the mass, which I believe is an idolatrous lie, but then you have

obviously Pentecostals and charismatic having more of the present -day miraculous as their focus,

but there is a lot of similarity there.

And not just that, Chris.

Think about this.

When I started looking into Sovereign Grace, what led to me was into digging into Scripture, learning about Scripture,

but what Pentecostal Prosperity Gospel does is that a lot of the people

are not well -educated, and they don't want to be educated.

They want to hear to the pastor, and they put the pastor in a higher place

of spirituality.

The pastor is in a way higher place.

He's a holy man, and we ought to listen to him, and what he says is truth.

And whether it says something different in the Bible, I think that because he's such a holy man, I think what he

says is true.

So does that compare.

To the Pope?

Right, right.

I understand what you're saying.

Although there obviously is a high value that elders and

overseers have in the Scriptures, and that they are worthy of double honor and so on.

Those who teach the Word.

Right, exactly.

But Paul commended the Bereans who were even questioning him, and he didn't say,

I'm an apostle, pal.

I mean, are you kidding me?

You're questioning me?

Right, yeah.

Of all of the epistles Paul wrote, the Thessalonians got the most commendation, but Luke

says that Paul considered the Bereans more noble than even the Thessalonians because they checked it out.

Was the stuff he's saying, did it line up with Scripture?

And I think that's one of the things that I see.

The similarities between Roman Catholicism and the Pentecostal

movements is that the Scripture doesn't

dictate what is ultimately done and believed and adhered to.

It is experiential, and then the priesthood of the believer, which was of course

a tenant of the Reformation, priesthood of all the believers, and that

kind of equal standing that we have before God, that obviously is not being reflected

in the same way that the Roman Catholic Church has that hierarchy.

Now there's a thing called urban flight that has been going on for many decades where people fled

the inner city areas to the suburbs.

Do you see a positive reverse of that in regards to

Christians going back into the inner city with the gospel?

I do.

I see what I'm seeing these days is that particularly the younger generation, they have a

connection.

What comes with the city comes a culture.

There is a multi -ethnic that adds a flavor to

just the experience of life that younger people are seeing.

So we're seeing younger people move in, and we're also seeing older people

moving into Lancaster City as well.

So they fly out when they

want to raise their kids.

So I think that has to do sometimes with school systems and maybe with some of the influences they want to

protect their kids from.

So there's this weird in and then out and then back in

when they get older because Lancaster City has a great artistic

flair to it.

So a lot of people are coming back in.

There's a desire to see businesses started and

different movements coming in.

So we want to capitalize on that.

Actually, we're doing something next week where we're reaching out to the artistic community and

we're bringing in this gentleman who's a musician from Denver, Colorado.

He's going to be doing a talk next Thursday night on art and the gospel and

how a true understanding of God and what he's done for us in Christ, how that ought to inspire

creativity from the church.

And we're hoping that we can engage with the artistic community who sort of held the church off at arm's

length and saying, hey, there's something there for you, but we want to get close enough that they can

feel that.

And having said that, you are having events like that,

being old things to old men and so on.

Isn't there also obviously the danger that has manifested itself in the seeker

-sensitive movement and other things where some church is trying to appeal

to the liberal nature of the urban areas,

the fact that Christians are perhaps in a tiny minority and perhaps what starts as

a right desire to draw people to experience Christian worship and hear the

gospel, they are changing what God has ordained as a biblical

way of worship, and they're even altering the gospel itself to make it more palatable to

either non -Christian listeners, anti -Christian listeners, or

those of even in the other direction.

When we think of the city, sometimes we're thinking of the impoverished areas, but you have some of the

sophisticated urbanites who are appealed to by some of these

seeker -sensitive churches that they're all about the arts and

things like that, but they really do not want to offend those coming by

really being open and honest and clear about what the gospel is and the demands.

Of repentance.

Well, I certainly think that that could be a possibility, but we

hold each other accountable to keep the gospel clear.

Just because it's a possibility doesn't mean I don't think you go there, I think, and seeking to be all things

to all people.

That sense of accountability, I think Paul had built into his own community.

Some people, some scholars say that Paul had upwards of 20 guys that were kind of in and out of his life.

He'd send them on missions, and they were kind of this band of brothers, and so we're

working with guys, and we hold the central tenets that we believe the same things,

and so I think if any one of us got off

balance theologically or starting to water things down, we would certainly call each other on the carpet.

In fact, Kevin, I'm telling you, if I ever stop preaching the gospel, call me out on it.

And yet, Chris, I believe that the church exists

primarily to bring glory to God in the propagation of the gospel.

We will worship better in heaven.

We will fellowship better in heaven.

What we won't do better in heaven is a witness to the saving grace of Jesus Christ to

those who need it, and so I think we're in Lancaster, and our mission statement is that

we exist so that every man, woman, and child in Lancaster City has

the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ clearly enough that they can

say yes or no.

We can't create within them the desire to say yes or no, but we are responsible,

I think, to give the gospel to every man, woman, and child.

Now, church our size, we can't do that, so we want to partner with like -minded other

believers to do that, and so if our city or our community has artists, then we've got

to figure out how do we get the gospel to the artists.

If they're prostitutes, how do we get it to the prostitutes?

If they're heroin addicts, how do we get it to the heroin addicts?

If it's businessmen, if it's housewives, if it's

Spanish, Hindu, if it's Syrian refugees, how do we get the gospel there?

That's why God has us where we are, and that's true of every church,.

I believe.

It's one of the things that I have admired about North Shore Baptist Church in

Bayside, Queens, at least in New York where you started,

is their desire to plant churches, and there are many churches

or church leaders that I think are overly consumed with that specific

congregation growing and growing and growing and then requiring a

fundraising project to buy a bigger piece of property and erect a much larger building.

Now, I'm not saying that that is always wrong or anything like that, but do you think that that can

be an improper tendency to a lot of churches and their

thought patterns rather than planting other churches where they can be

adequately under the oversight of elders and so on?

I mean, there's only so much that even a plurality of elders can do in regard to

overseeing congregations.

Hundreds and thousands of people.

Right, right, right.

Correct.

Yeah, I definitely believe that.

I have never had a desire to be a pastor of a big church.

Just as a member of a church, I want my pastor to know all of my kids'

names, to know where they go to school, to be able to pray for them, and that's the kind of pastor that I want to be.

And so, our desire at One City Church would never be to grow to

something massive.

It's one of the reasons that I'm so thankful we have a relationship with Lancaster Bible College because there are men there, young

men, who are preparing for ministry, and if God were to raise some up, they were theologically aligned

with us.

So, we'd want to give them opportunities to learn to preach, to learn to counsel, to learn to shepherd.

And then, if God's calling them, we plant a church 13 blocks away.

I mean, because that's a whole...

You can go 13 blocks and there's another 10 ,000 people there, and then go to another 13 blocks, and then maybe

send someone to Philadelphia, maybe send someone down to Baltimore, and

encourage families within our church who maybe have the mobility to be able to do that to go with them and support

that man as he's starting his ministry off.

So yeah, I feel like I've never really believed that building a gym

or enhancing your kitchen at the church ultimately grows

the church deep or really even wide.

I've never really seen that happen.

What I have seen is I've seen it cause problems and divisions.

And so, we feel like why jump in that mix?

And what would be some of your specific prayer requests that you have for our listeners regarding One City

Church?

Kevin, why don't you start off with that, with maybe some of the things that's going on with the teenagers?

Pray for the teenagers.

Right now, mostly wisdom for me in this case, cause

we just recently got kids that came that are from between fourth grade and sixth grade, you know?

And then my heart was like, try to build a youth group from seventh grade to senior.

And those kids come and I'm like, well, now we got to raise someone who could teach those kids cause I don't want the older kids

to leave, but I don't want the younger kids to leave as well.

So pray for wisdom in my life for that and pray for people who come

and help us with this.

I'd also pray, ask for with the teenagers that

there's really just a lack of understanding of

anything biblically based.

And so, obviously without that foundation, there is a,

you know, there's a moral lapse or, you know, something that doesn't exist.

So pray that we could capture the hearts of these teens before they make

some catastrophic decisions.

Kevin's actually using a curriculum in teaching these teenagers

that we use among Muslims in Tanzania.

It's a chronological Bible story kind of curriculum.

It takes you from creation through the ascension where it connects with the work of Christ to

the Old Testament storyline.

And it builds, it kind of builds on the promise fulfillment motive of

the scriptures.

So pray that God would open their hearts.

You know, some things to pray specifically for one city.

We want to reflect our neighborhoods so that God would bring a

multi -ethnic congregation, people that love him together, and that we would worship him, pray for

unity within the body, pray for a growth there.

We want to see people come into, who don't know Jesus, come into life in our

midst.

And that just brings great joy.

Of course, we've experienced it in our own life, but it's like nothing greater when you see someone come to life

to Christ.

So we want to see more and more.

So pray for that.

Pray for also that God would bring others to plant churches in our neighborhood.

I mean, this isn't our turf.

We would love it if God would put it on the hearts of, you know, 10 other people to plant

churches right in our area because there's 12 ,000 people in that area who need gospel

witnesses, and certainly one city church can't.

Do that.

So we're going to our final break now.

If you'd like to join us on the air, we've got about less than a half hour left.

So if you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

Chris Arnson here, and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia.

And here's my friend,.

Dr. James White, to tell you why.

Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

I hope you join me at the G3 Conference hosted by Pastor Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at

the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta, January 19th through the 21st in

celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

I'll be joined by Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Vody Balcom, Conrad M. Bayway,

Phil Johnson, Rosaria Butterfield, Todd Friel, and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars

of what G3 stands for, gospel, grace, and glory.

For more details, go to g3conference .com.

That's g3conference .com.

Thanks, James.

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We are a Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

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We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

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That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

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If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

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Tired of box store Christianity?

Of doing.

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Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?

And how about the preaching?

Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes, our guests have been Pastor Alec Millen

and also his assistant, his pastoral assistant, Kevin Medina of

One City Church in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

And we have been discussing church planting in the inner city, its need and its

challenges.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

We have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know your opinion of street preaching since you

are in an urban area.

And B .B. says it's refreshing to see more theologically reformed.

People involved in it.

I think street preaching is great.

I think any preaching is great as long as it's preaching the truth.

We did a lot more of that in New York simply because there are places that people congregated.

In Lancaster, there's not centers where people congregate or are moving,

coming off of the subway, whatnot, in New York.

But I loved it.

I loved it.

We'd get out there.

I remember as a young preacher being scared to death.

And I'm a big guy, but thinking, what in the world's going to be the

reaction?

But when you proclaim the Word, here's what I have found, is that when you proclaim the gospel,

you very rarely, in fact, I never saw anyone repent and believe right then and

there.

But I believe it's broadly casting the seed of the gospel, which will take root

in many people's hearts.

And some of it will be plucked away.

Some of it will fall on stony and thorny soil, but some of it lands

in good soil as well.

But one thing that God often does when street preaching

happens is God will bring someone along who's one of his

children, who's maybe in a discouraged state or a place where they're just wrestling

with their own faith, and they'll see and they'll hear the gospel being preached.

And it will just be that perfect thing at the perfect time that bolsters them up

and keeps it going.

So yeah, I say, let's get more people out on the street preaching.

In fact, Kevin and his wife, it's not so much street preaching, but they have

organized several outreaches here in Lancaster.

We'll go out on Tuesday nights.

And the city of Lancaster puts out these pianos during the warmer weather months all throughout the city.

And there's one place in particular right across the street from the convention center.

And Kevin's wife is a phenomenal pianist.

And so we'll get a group of people gathered around, and we'll just be worshipping.

We'll just be singing songs of worship.

And people start congregating and sort of around the fringes.

They won't join us, but they'll stop and listen and watch.

And we just will kind of keep our eye out for people who are standing around long enough.

And then one of us will peel off and go start a conversation.

And we've gotten into some long, deep gospel conversations through those

opportunities.

So yeah, let's bring it to the streets.

Yeah.

And by the way, B .B. in Cumberland County, you might want to mark down in your calendar

that Monday, October 3rd, I have a guest who is very involved in street

preaching, Tony Miano, who is a strong believer in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace.

He's a member of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, where John MacArthur is the pastor.

He's a retired police officer and is very involved in street preaching and has written

a new book involved in his experiences doing that called Cross

Encounters.

I think the subtitle is A Decade of Gospel Conversations.

I don't have the book in front of me, but I think that's the subtitle.

But one of the things that I admired about Tony is that he takes street

preaching very seriously, and he does not think that mavericks who are

unlearned in the scriptures without any blessing from local elders

of a church should just go out there, stand on a crate, and start screaming in the

city or anywhere else, because that actually has given a bad name to open

-air evangelism, as it's also called, where you have just crazy people screaming

heretical nonsense.

But it's good to know that there are people who have learned the truth well and have the

encouragement and blessing of elders to send them out to do that kind of thing.

Yeah.

Two men who really influenced me in this, one comes from Key West, Florida, Bill

Welzene.

Yeah, I've met him.

He was down in Mallory Square.

He preaches down there, the southernmost point of the United States.

He's preaching several nights a week, the gospel.

I think the guy next to him balances chairs and couches on his head, and

it's sort of a freak show down there.

And then in the other direction, Pastor Gary George up in

the Boston area goes and preaches in the Boston Commons, open -air preaching.

And that man has memorized, I believe, over 4 ,000 verses of scripture.

He just has the Word of God right at the tip of his tongue at all times.

So yeah.

Yes, I fondly recall Gary calling me your brotherness.

That's right.

Your brotherness.

What's the good news from the far country, brother?

That's right.

Well, let's talk a bit about something that just came up in regard to street preaching is the doctrines of grace,

and that our listener was very happy that more theologically Reformed people are involved in that.

And as far as the doctrines of grace go, since today those teachings

are very rarely heard in the

contrast when I'm talking about proportionately to the rest of

what is under the umbrella of evangelical Christianity, we who

believe in these things are today a minority, although growing again.

I mean, there was a time in history when those who believed these things were in the majority in the

evangelical or Protestant church.

But when you have people that you're discipling, or that you are even

evangelizing, how do you introduce these things?

What are the things that you bring up to those who are either lost or even

believers, but who are just the words of Calvinism or Reformed

theology?

If you want to put a label on it, they're totally far into the ears of some of these people.

Right.

So typically what I will do is I don't want to

ultimately lead them to Calvin or to a systematic theology.

What I want them first to see is that it's in the Bible.

And the good news is, let's take a believer first.

You got a young believer who believes the Bible is the word of God and

loves it, but just doesn't know it yet.

But in their heart, there's a commitment that whatever this book says, I'm going to believe.

So you just take that, and that's a good position to be in.

So you challenge them with some thoughts like, you know, just bring up the subject of

predestination.

And most people have an opinion of that, whether how biblically informed it is or not.

And then what I do is I just take them to passages like Ephesians

chapter one, or Romans chapter nine, or Romans chapter eight,

and where it says, those whom God foreknew, he also predestined.

Those whom he predestined, he also justified.

So you break down the barriers, one saying that the word's actually in the Bible,

so it's not man -made.

So okay, so then we got to figure out what does it mean?

And so as you get them talking about what they believe, what I'll do is I'll take them to a

scripture that I know will challenge what they believe, and I'll literally hand them the Bible

and say, okay, read this verse right here.

And they're reading it, they're verbalizing it, and when they see

that, you can see them start squirming because they know where I'm going to take them.

And I'll say, well, what does that verse mean?

And then they'll try to explain it away because we all want to

seem justified in what we already believe.

And then they'll say, does that, is that what the Bible says?

I mean, is that what it says?

And then this is what happened in my life.

I remember being in little Italy and Pastor Ed Moore was taking me through Romans nine, I will have

mercy on whom I have mercy.

I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

Jacob I loved, Esau I hated, Romans nine, verse 12, or

verse 13.

And I remember just squirming like that.

And he says, well, what do you think that means?

And I'm like, well, I don't know, but it can't certainly mean what it just said.

And, you know, you kind of leave them with the weight of the scriptures.

And so you disciple them with the word of God, not simply a systematic way of looking at it.

I think that's helpful.

As far as with unbelievers, just yesterday, I was in a conversation with a

young man who hasn't come to faith in Christ yet.

And as we talked about the gospel, he really struggled with the fact that there would be a God who

would send people to hell who don't believe in Jesus.

Because, I mean, he's smart enough to look at the world and he said, that's most of the people on this planet.

And why would God do that?

And so just the implications of what we believe, and I don't think we have to squirm at that.

God is sovereign.

God makes the rules.

He has graciously invited those of us who have believed into that fellowship.

I mean, he's invited everybody, certainly, but that inner call of the gospel that comes to the heart of

the elect, we know is what ultimately brings us to him.

So we don't have to be ashamed of this.

We can be thankful for it.

We can be prayerful for them to experience it as well.

And what I said to him, as I said, it's hard for you to understand this because you've never experienced what

I'm talking about.

But I want you to know this is absolutely true.

And one day, God willing, you'll experience this as well.

But this is true.

This is the God who you'll have to stand before.

And so...

Wouldn't you say that one of the reasons that.

This is important, because there are people, especially those who are not

theologically reformed or believers in the doctrines of grace, although you may even have people

in churches embracing those teachings that think that they are spoken of too often or

too much importance is put on them.

But do you think that one of the reasons why it's a very important issue is because

all other systems of theology, it appears, rob God of some of his

glory and exalt man in his pride in

regard to his own involvement in his salvation?

Kevin, why don't you speak into that?

Even for me, I remember one time when I first started learning about the doctrines of grace,

I was talking to a friend of mine in Honduras.

He's a Prosperity Gospel guy.

He told me, hey, you know what?

You see, salvation doesn't depend on your dad.

It doesn't depend on your pastor.

It doesn't even depend on God, he said.

Depends on you.

So I started thinking about it.

I was like, wait, what did he say?

So you're telling me that the way I'm going to make it to heaven, and when I get there, I say, God, I

made it here.

I made it here.

And right there, you rob that of knowing that God will say,

depart of me.

Because it is nothing, nothing of you, and it's just by grace alone.

Yeah, the only thing that we contribute to our salvation is our sin that we're being saved from, and

by laying that at the feet of Christ.

But this is one of the reasons why that is

important, is that it really does affect the gospel.

If people really do not view Christ as deserving all the

praise, honor, and glory, and I said all, with all capital letters, 100 of it,

there is something deficient, very seriously and dangerously deficient about their understanding.

Of the gospel, isn't there?

Absolutely, because I mean, if we feel like we contribute to this, we take glory for ourselves.

That's our natural bent.

We want some credit.

It doesn't have to be in spiritual things.

We just seem to like to justify and think of ourselves as a good person, and have a way to

bolster our own sense of self -identity.

Well, God wants us to lose that.

John the Baptist said, he must increase, I must decrease.

And so that ought to be the heart of every Christian.

And I don't know, theological systems aside, I mean, the Bible,

it strips us of our own glory when we see that He foreknew us.

Not only before I was born, but before the world was even created, all of this

was set in motion.

He had set His affection upon me in His Son.

I mean, it has absolutely transformed me.

I used to live for the praise of men.

I mean, that's what athletes are trained.

I mean, we're trained to do a sport.

But I mean, for many athletes, the applause of men, and

the crowds, and the roar, and everything that goes with that, it's intoxicating.

I've never taken drugs, but I would assume that it's as powerful as

any drug.

And yet I remember when, although I had attained all that, when I

came to understand that God chose me, and loved me, and died for,

can't send His Son to die for me, and has done everything possible for, so that I

could know Him in order to bring me to God.

I mean, that just, why wouldn't you want that, Chris?

Why wouldn't you want that?

And I guess I want to say that to the listeners.

There are some people out there who may be listening right now, and you've tried everything.

You've pursued success in your business, or in sports.

You've pursued worldly pleasures, whether that be sex, or drugs, or alcohol, all those things.

But I know that you wake up the next morning, and you are not satisfied, and you've got to

do it again, you've got to do it again.

And you're wondering, what were you created for?

Some people come to such a desperation that they take their own lives.

But what I say is that Jesus Christ, you were created for Jesus Christ, by Jesus Christ,

and He has made a way possible for you to come to God through His death on the cross.

And there is nothing, you will search your whole life to find satisfaction, but until you find it in Him, you're going to

be wandering aimlessly.

So come to Him now.

Come to Him today.

And don't worry about this whole thing, whether am I one of the elect or whatnot.

The Bible says you don't have to figure out whether you're one of the elect.

What the Bible says is to repent and believe that Christ died for your sins and that was raised on the

third day.

If you'll believe that as your only hope before God, He will accept you into His family, and

you'll never regret that.

Ben Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania,.

Wants to know, why is it that so many Reformed Christians are proud and arrogant?

That is a point, but wouldn't you say that it is in spite of the teachings

that should bring a man to a contrary opinion of

himself?

I mean, there's nothing in the very teachings of the doctrines.

Of grace that should exalt any man to pride.

Yeah.

See, what happens, I'm sorry, his name is Harrison.

What happens, Harrison, is we live in a world where we very

quickly run to our corners and we find our own tribe and we circle ourselves with those who are of like mind.

One of the things I love about you, Chris, is that your friends are across the spectrum, not only

among Christians theologically, but even believer and unbeliever alike.

But when you cluster in your own tribe, and everybody's sort of patting each other on the back, and

you're just repeating to one another what you believe, and you're demonizing everybody who's in a different tribe,

you never, first of all, you never grow.

You never grow because you never have to defend what you believe, but you also do become proud.

And just because you may believe in the doctrines of God's sovereign grace doesn't remove that old man that's inside of

us.

And so, I think that I have.

I've been around a lot of ugly, not physically ugly, but the ugly Calvinists who has all the

answers, but nobody wants to be around them because they're just nasty.

And so, I would say that is a

blight on, but it's not just reformed guys.

Here's what I found, it's every tribe.

Every tribe gets into their own little thing, and they demonize people from other tribes.

So, you can be an Arminian tribe, and you can be saying those stupid Calvinists, how can they possibly believe that?

Or you could be in a Pentecostal tribe, those stupid.

Cessationists.

We didn't invent the term frozen chosen, somebody else did.

Yeah, right, right, right.

So, but I do think that it's important for us to get outside of those kind of

natural things and to push the, seek for the unity of the body, be humble.

I didn't, God was sovereign, not only over my salvation, but he was also sovereign in me seeing the doctrines of grace.

I'm thankful for them, and I want to help other people see them because I think the scriptures teach them.

But I think that's one thing that you mentioned patience earlier.

You can be patient with someone as they're in that journey, because it really is a worldview changer.

When you see that God is this sovereign, it's a worldview changer.

So, a lot of people hold off and resist that because it changes the way not only that you view your God and

yourself and the world, and that can be cataclysmic to somebody.

And also going to that point, some of the reasons why, and just for some of the listeners that have

that deal with people that believe something different, be patient with them.

And this is in my case, because you have to realize that when they come to understand this,

it is not only them that are confused, but it is their parents, their church, people they trust, they love.

So, you think about all the people and that puts them like, man, they're wrong too.

So, they struggle with that and to let it go in that aspect.

So, being patient with them and understanding that it is not just them, but it's more

people behind them that they're looking to that are struggling with this as well.

And I know that your website for One City Church is

onecitychurchlancaster .com.

That's the word one, O -N -E, citychurchlancaster .com.

I want you to spend at least three minutes to basically summarize, Pastor Alec, what you most

want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

Well, the most important thing is just what we talked about.

Jesus Christ created us,

lived the life that we should have lived, died the death that we will

have to die, but then conquered death on behalf of those

who would put their trust in Him so that He could bring us to God.

And I would say that's the most important thing that you could embrace of all that we've

talked about.

If you believe that, find a church that preaches the gospel.

Find a church that takes it seriously.

It can be big, it can be little, but find a church where you're going to grow in your faith and where you can encourage people

and that they will hold you accountable to repent and believe.

And if you live in the Lancaster area, you may want to check us out.

But if you live in the Lancaster area and are part of a gospel preaching church, then keep sharing the word

because there is a world in need of Christ and He is worthy.

Ultimately, we share this message because He is worthy.

He is the one who gets the glory.

But if people will join themselves to Him by faith in what He did for them,

oh, the joy that they will have.

And sometimes God allows us to be part of that.

So keep preaching the gospel to those around you and believing it.

For yourself.

And once again, that website is OneCityChurchLancaster .com.

That's OneCityChurchLancaster .com.

I want to thank you so much, Pastor Alec Millen, for being on the program today.

And brother, I am so glad that you were in the studio,

Brother Medina, that you had joined Pastor Alec today, and I'm looking forward to

future interviews with both of you.

I want to remind our listeners, or in fact inform our listeners for the very first

time, that tomorrow I have, all the way from Northern Ireland, Pastor Mark

Johnston is going to be my guest today.

I'm sorry, tomorrow from 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time on Iron Sharpens Iron to discuss the

Reformation Conference at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where I am a member.

And we're having Sinclair Ferguson from Scotland and Mark Johnson from Northern Ireland preach on

Thursday, October 27th, 7 to 9 p .m.

For more details on the conference, go to gracebaptistcarlisle .org,

gracebaptistcarlisle .org.

But tomorrow during Iron Sharpens Iron, Mark Johnson, one of those speakers from Northern Ireland, is going to be my

guest.

And I want all of you to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

than you are a sinner.

God bless you all, and I especially thank those of you who took the time to write with your questions, especially our new

friend from Honduras.

And I hope to hear from you all soon with questions for future guests on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.