Road Trip Morning Dividing Line

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:33

Well, greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line. My name is James White. It's an unusual time of day. I know I am coming to you from Tullah well actually outside of Tullahoma about 20 minutes from 20 -25 minutes from Tullahoma Tennessee where the

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Y Calvinism Conference is taking place right now. No, I'm not there yet.

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I will be this afternoon after lunch Unfortunately, you know,

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I've got a lot of stuff to do on this trip and uh, even when I'm at places

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I've still got Preparation and teaching and debates coming up. The debate with Jason Breda will be on Saturday afternoon 3 30 to 6

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I think uh Central standard time pretty sure of that. Um, I speak uh the night before Then I have a the

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Q &A right afterwards and I gotta come flying back here Because I'm doing an online

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Discussion lecture thing on the Trinity prior to the Council of Nicaea Which is a big topic that just sort of got dropped on me in the middle of all this.

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So We'll see how it goes. Um could end up being mainly discussion of Biblicism, uh, oh,

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I know why it's so bright in here To say that I Um Set things up very very quickly, uh today is a uh is an understatement

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Uh, and I I left some stuff here And I don't know if I can do anything about it from sitting here.

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Ah, there we go. Ah, that much looks so much better Yeah, the the kuji looks a lot better too.

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Uh anyway Uh, hopefully this is working

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Literally nothing was set up not a not a camera was up only got one set up the modem wasn't even on um

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Yeah, so i've been Running around like the proverbial chicken and you might say why well,

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I I doubt we're gonna get anything in the rest of the week um, and What we do here we consider to be important and a lot of people.

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Um Feel the same way thankfully, um And there's some things to talk about and um, let's start with the alabama supreme court um

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What the alabama supreme court said 100 years ago would not have even been remarkable

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How it said it 100 years ago Would not have been remarkable. The only thing that's remarkable is the revolution that has taken place in the united states over the past 100 years

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And the Radical directions that has gone over the past 40 and especially over the past 15

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We are seeing uh the result of secularism Remember seculare the secularum the world worldly system

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Uh secularists have nothing more than that. And so secularists read Um a court decision in the state of alabama that quoted the bible

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Which was completely normal, uh 100 years ago completely normal at the beginning of this nation

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Um, vast majority of americans don't know that Uh, they are ignorant of that fact purposefully, so uh, we need to understand that this revolution required the taking over the educational system the um

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Shifting the educational system to a secular model And as a result, uh, they don't know

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The christian nature of even judicial statements in the past the judiciary the judiciary especially

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Because you're dealing with right and wrong moral foundations um citation of scripture was commonplace

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The formation of the law in our nation again commonplace to quote from scripture

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Uh, because that's where our laws came from so uh

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You know the um, we even had treaties that that began um in in the name of the most holy trinity

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Which of course won't happen today, but that's where the revolution is taking place the

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The statements of the alabama supreme court in the recognition of the humanity of unborn children

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Does raise a tremendous area that let's be honest Most of us have wanted to stay out of um

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But in vitro fertilization When you look at scripture you see children are a blessing from god you see people praying for children

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You know about what happens to samuel and things like that uh

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But once you no longer believe that Once you you embrace the modernistic thinking

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To where you know, we know now why children why children are born We we know now why why couples can't have children we can get around these things

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And Put that together with some of the responses That have been offered to the alabama supreme court where I was listening to someone commenting on this and the thought crossed my mind

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Early on. Oh, man. Talk about autonomy this is this is where the secular emphasis upon human autonomy

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Um where You cannot have a meaningful legal system where human autonomy

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Is part of the foundation Because we we have to have laws.

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You can't just do whatever you feel like doing and there has to be overarching principles and morality and direction the society is supposed to go and all of that comes back to uh, and is relevant to um

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God's law and our createdness And the commentator then read from secular sources talking about reproductive autonomy

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Uh, this threatens our our autonomy Yeah, it's it's it's all through it and these people are are are literally talking about being terrified terrified by this decision as well, it should be because to Recognize that there is a standard

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Above the creature is terrifying to the secularist Um their entire system is based upon the

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Not only the centrality of an individual but the fundamental reality

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That once we die, that's it There's nothing more The idea of building for your great -grandchildren the idea of future judgment all these things that give a consistent and usable foundation to law and morality in society secularism hates these things

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And cannot stand these things and so oh If if the if the alabrama supreme court has decided this this issue based upon biblical principles

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But then let's be honest Only a handful of ethicists and moralists and theologians

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Over the past 25 years I'm not sure when the first in vitro fertilization was maybe as many as 40 years ago

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But especially with you know, now that we've we've mapped the the genome and stuff like that these

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These issues are not easy issues and what they What they lead us to honestly, uh,

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I saw I think it was ben online a couple days ago, and obviously it was the result of the alabama thing

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Said ivf should be outlawed and we do live in a in a land where Designer babies are taking place um

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Literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of unique Human embryos are produced and destroyed or frozen putting suspended animation uh this kind of We are in charge of our own bodies.

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We don't have to be concerned about what god wants um

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Did you read brave new world? Um, I had to I always found brave new world such a

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You know 1984 was dark In a Governmental tyranny oppression type way

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Brave new world was dark in its emptiness humans emptied of what makes us human

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And That's what we're talking about here we are we are talking about you remember brave new world where you had the alphas and the betas and the deltas and the epsilons and and You you literally designed people to have a low iq so they could do the dumb jobs and then you had the higher people and and um, you know smaller and smaller numbers, you know hierarchical and and all that kind of stuff and it just Sexuality had become just a thing you do same thing with um

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Um this perfect day where human sexuality was just um

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It was cheapened it was turned into A recreational activity which is again where we are rather than a covenantal activity

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We've all been deeply influenced by it. I don't I And this started before the sexual revolution really started the second revolution was already in the universities, but it started before then

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Because I was getting this stuff in my youth And I was in a you know fundamentalist context so it was coming from every which direction even then anyway uh

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These books that it's just so so empty and this is where we are And we know we absolutely know

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That that some of the greatest minds of the past Came in defective bodies, uh beethoven

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My goodness would have been aborted For many different reasons many many different reasons would have been aborted

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And I listen to those symphonies and I go what a loss how many beethoven's have been aborted?

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Um, how many doctors Whose minds would have? Seen connections that ours cannot or that ai cannot

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Have been aborted Um, we we think about these things

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I think about these things and I am once again, and this was not what

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I was raised with. This is something that The lord is having to sanctify me about but once again when

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I hear people saying look the only The only solution to any of these things is found

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Not only in the proclamation of the gospel of jesus christ, but the embracing of it

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We mankind will destroy himself

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Outside of the eventual gracious Restraint Of the lord jesus christ because it's his purpose to build his church if mankind destroys himself that church is going to be destroyed

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Now don't get me wrong. There could be massive upheavals global upheavals

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That the church would continue on remember The church made it through the black death uh by god's providential care and god's decree

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But man i'll tell you In the middle of that it would have been real easy To lose faith to just throw your hands up and say it's it's done.

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It's over Everything we thought was true isn't We always have to remember

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And this this again if you don't believe that scripture is what scripture claims to be And man, there's fewer and fewer people who actually believe it then you we don't have a divine perspective from which

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To look at what's happening in this world And to come to proper conclusions about it

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And that's truly problematic Um both for the secular world as well as for the christian world where there is so much willingness to abandon scripture

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And its highest, um its highest authority But it does it does it is there it gives us that perspective and for um a husband and wife greatly desirous of children

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Of their own children. I get it. I understand um But it's the lord that opens the womb you might say well, but he's just using a mechanism the mechanism produces numerous unique human embryos that will never see life

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And they are destroyed if that's human life that's the destruction of human life and the christian couple should go no

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If the lord has closed our our womb speaking as a couple um There are many many children that need homes

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Adoption is beautiful. It's biblical Um, it's appropriate. It's proper.

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It's god -honoring and So alabama's

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Insightful decision should prompt further deeper moral discussion the problem is

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Uh, I I don't see the concurrent

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Concurrent spiritual awakening amongst americans to allow

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That meaningful kind of conversation to yet take place Let's hope and pray that happens.

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Um right now. I don't see it. Um a couple of things

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I that I didn't get to in the last um dividing line that I I thought of Only afterwards and so my my apologies to you, uh for that uh

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I I really need to find a a different way um of getting to like The one thing

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I don't like about accordance Is the verse entry thing?

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It's too small. I need to have I need to have the box thing um push button anyway uh

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One thing that I didn't get to that. I wanted to get to on the last program was the assertion That was made in the purgatory debate with uh, trent horn

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We are never told to confess our sins to god what's fascinating to me is um

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There is no such thing as a sacramental priesthood in the new testament But here you have somebody who's saying you're never told to confess your sins to god

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And what he wants you to believe because there's a whole article in fact he linked to it in response to somebody else

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Why you should confess your sins to a priest once you believe you should do it to a priest So Do you see the contradiction in telling someone there's nothing in the bible to tell you to confess to god

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And there's also nothing to tell you to confess to a priest, but I want you to do the one not the other it's just Um, there's been a lot that's come out

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And there's a lot more it's going to come out by the weekend Um, I I think uh, we'll see anyway a lot of people said well, but um, what about first john one

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And this is a message we have heard from him declared you that god is light in him There is no darkness at all if we say that we have fellowship with him

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So we're talking about god and yet walk in the darkness we lie and do not do the truth But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light

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We have fellowship with one another and the blood of jesus christ his son cleanses us from all sin.

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So the focus is on god Uh walking in his light.

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He himself is the light And only in him can we have fellowship with one another so there is the the community of faith

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And the blood of jesus son cleanses us from all sin That's not through some concept that's going to come millennia in the future of transubstantiation in the mass

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If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us now You can in in a broad sense

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Say that if we The people of god say that there is no sin amongst us

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Uh, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us But it seems far more obvious That What john's writing against here

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Are those who would say I have no sin And they're speaking personally if we say we have no sin

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We deceive ourselves. This isn't some communal deception This is our self -deception taking place

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And the truth is not in us if we confess our sins He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins

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And to cleanse us from all unrighteousness if we say that we have not sinned we make him a liar

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And his word is not in us So again, these are plural pronouns They're this is being addressed to the whole christian community

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But It's very clearly saying if we say we have no sin that's something individuals say if we confess

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Our sins confess to who? Well the argument

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Normally is made. Well, this is confession in the body and We all do that.

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I I don't know I suppose there might be some fundamentalist churches, but uh almost every

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Church that I know of Has a part in their church service. It's a part of the liturgy.

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It's a part of the prayers um to have prayers of confession We confess our sins before god um

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And we we seek forgiveness so That's that's a given uh

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When we meet corporately This takes place. There's there's corporate confession of sin so on and so forth but It doesn't make a lick of sense to go

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And so when I know i've sinned I need to wait until the next corporate meeting to confess to other people

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No, you confess to sin you confess your sin to god And you receive forgiveness of sins and a cleansing from all unrighteousness

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And that comes all from god if we confess our sins he is faithful The roman catholic is so accustomed to priestly absolution and the confessional

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And these types of things they they just read the new testament Not recognizing there are no priests in the new testament um as we did

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I Did I start on this and not finish it last time? Um With preparation for so many things at the same time

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It's really difficult for me to remember what i've gotten to when I haven't but It is god

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Who is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins? Not a priest not other people

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It is god um He cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

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It's the blood of jesus his son that cleanses us from all sin And the later development where you

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Create this sacramental system through which this grace is channeled Has no place in first john anywhere now when

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When I challenged and this is because there were two different things sort of came together in the big when I challenged trent horn on his assertion that ignatius had said

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That You need to have bishop priest and deacon in the church

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I said, where did ignatius ever say that and he immediately said well, he said presbyter. So he knew Um exactly where I was going

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And again see the debate with mitch pacwa on how historically Uh presbyteros, uh became hieron

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I did mention this in the last program. I just don't think we followed it up because Some people might not know um

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Where to go to see where presbyteroi and episcopoi

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Episcopos is an overseer bishop elder uh

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Presbyteros is an elder and It is recognized by the vast majority of new testament scholars

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That these terms are used interchangeably, but where let me give you an example, so you're prepared when paul writes to titus and again

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Trent horn doesn't seem to believe that it's overly relevant Whether paul actually wrote these letters or not

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He's willing to accept quote unquote Critical scholarship Uh that has a limited pauline corpus.

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He did that with the poirier anyways the poirier information um on the meaning of theodnustos

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So if you're not familiar with this once again in amongst many new testament, uh scholars today

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They do not believe that paul wrote everything that's attributed to him in the new testament specifically

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Generally of his epistles they will reject ephesians and colossians And then all the pastorals first second timothy titus philemon philemon anyway uh so This leads to having to view these books

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You know you can if you're going to still say they're fully canonical Then the only reason they're canonical is because the church has said so even though that was not a part of the discussion in the early church at all

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It's amazing how many people will try to use the early church and then shoehorn that stuff into uh modern

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Parlance and beliefs and things it just doesn't work Back to titus titus 1 5 for this reason.

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I left you in crete that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders

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In every city as I directed you So presbuterus

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Presbuteroid the elders Being appointed. This is something that when when paul went through the churches where he had planted planted the faith

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He went back through them and he strengthened them by appointing elders Elders and deacons are the two new testament offices.

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The only offices we have any qualifications for given in scripture There are no qualifications for priests.

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There are no qualifications for cardinals. There's no qualification for popes There's no qualification for female pastors

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There's qualifications for two offices elders elders Pastors bishops.

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They're all the same thing and deacons. Those are the the two offices that we have in the new testament So, uh

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He tells titus Stay in crete and set an order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you

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Namely if any man is beyond reproach the husband of one wife having faithful children who are not accused of dissipate dissipation or rebellious for the episcopon the episkopos

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The overseer the bishop must be beyond reproach as god steward not self -willed not quick -tempered undicted wine

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Not pugnacious not fond of dishonest gain, etc, etc so notice appoint elders

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Here's the qualifications the bishop must be this it's the same office Used interchangeably.

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There's no question about it This is not a priest. There's a perfectly good greek term for priest

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There's a perfectly good greek term for a chief priest used a lot many times

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But that's not found in the new testament church anywhere. This is a mutation

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It does not come from reflection on the biblical text it comes from Outside the christian faith religions around the mediterranean had

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Priests a priest class And just as israel wanted to have a king and God warned him, uh, you get a king.

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This is what's gonna happen. And that's what happened They still wanted to have a king. They wanted to be like the nations around them

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And what happened over time? Uh, we ended up with priests Uh, even though there are

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No qualifications for a priest Nothing in god -inspired scripture. Nothing that we know comes from the apostles to even define what these things are

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So there you go. Um Those are Fascinating conversations.

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We need to be having those conversations. We need to know what the new testament teaches about these things And so I wanted to uh touch on that, but I also want to touch on One of my favorite early church fathers

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I didn't get to Um, and that was melito sardis. Um melito sardis did reject the deuterocanonical books um trent horn's um

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A historical spin is anachronistic Let me just give you melito's own words

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As provided by eusebius we have very little from melito. It's a shame. His paschal sermon is awesome

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I included a section I translated from it 1997 98 now coming up on 30 years anyway, um in the forgotten trinity book because His testimony to the deity of christ is very very clear and Compelling and beautiful and encouraging and all those types of things but eusebius

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Um had access to some of melito's writings that have not survived down to our day One of the reasons

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That melito was not as popular as he would have been otherwise is he was on the wrong side of a debate Uh, he was on the wrong side of the quartodeciman controversy

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And you go What? um The quartodeciman controversy

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Was a controversy in the early church lasted for quite some time uh part of the early division between the east and the west on the date

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Of the celebration of easter And the east used basically the jewish

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Way of reckoning the west had a different way of doing it um Victor bishop of rome threatened to divide the church over it irenaeus told victor to cool his jets um

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And you know it eventually did become a part of all the things that piled up over time

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That led to the great schism in 1054 anyway Uh melito was on the wrong side of the quartodeciman controversy and honestly, we may have fewer of his writings because of that which to be honest with you does demonstrate that At times history can be very people in history can be very childish.

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I guess history can't be all of that Uh church history professor guy here talking.

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Um Here as recorded by eusebius In his church history

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Are the words of melito melito to his brother onesimus greeting Since you have often in your zeal for the word express a wish to have extracts made

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From the law and the prophets concerning the savior and concerning our entire faith

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And have also desired to have an accurate statement of the ancient books as regards their number and their order

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I have endeavored to perform the task accordingly When I went to the east and came to the place where these things were preached and done.

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So in other words, he went to israel I learned accurately the books of the old testament

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And send them to you as written below their names are as follows And then he gives um

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Basically that he gives the jewish canon now very very quickly There's different writings the jewish canon sometimes in 22 sometimes 24

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Almost all the differences are uh like lamentations

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Would be included along with jeremiah Whereas we distinguish between them which is why we have 39 and the 12 minor prophets are always considered as one um and so there there can be small differences because of Smaller books being included with larger books.

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Remember this is a period of time of scrolls Certainly for the old testament new testament christians didn't like scrolls uh, they they were codex people so Uh, but we're talking old testament here and What you would do is you'd put a major prophet at the beginning of the scroll because that's going to be read more often

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Because if you got it if you got to get to the minor prophet at the end You'd end up with popeye arms

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Go through that scroll You can imagine, you know, we used to have the the drills uh the bible drills, uh

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I even I even won a free trip to glorietta one year. That's actually that was bible memorization but I think we did have some drills thing along with it where you know, you've got your bible and then

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Jonah chapter three You know anyways, I that's great do it.

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Can you imagine doing the scrolls? You know jonah chapter three i'll be back in 15 minutes

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Trying to get through the scrolls and yeah, yeah, that'd be pretty wild anyway All right, so, um

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Melito goes to israel And he he is providing this information to anesimus

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And he wants to have extracts made from the law and the prophets concerning the savior and concerning our entire faith and He's wanted to have an accurate statement of the ancient books as regard their number and their order now

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We know without question That there was controversy over this and it was primarily due to one simple thing

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The greek septuagint Manuscripts we have today which are all christian in origin contain

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The apocryphal or deuterocanonical books even though most of them weren't even written in hebrew

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And the jewish people did not accept them And despite what trent says the oracles of god from romans three that were committed to jewish people were the scriptures

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There's no question about that There really isn't So this is what he's providing to anesimus

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Is the Number and order of the books and he gives what you and I have

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Basically as the 39 books 22 24 again, it's he gives the jewish canon.

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He does not include the apocryphal books So trent's idea was well, he was just giving the jewish canon.

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Why would that's not what he says? Onesimus wants to have an accurate statement of the ancient books as regards their number in their order

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Oh, well, he just means the jewish canon. Why? Why would why would you limit that just to jewish canon?

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Well He gave him the jewish canon, but not the christian canon. There's nothing here that says that this is anachronistic abuse of those sources

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It really is Remember one thing the more an individual knew of the old testament

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The more an individual knew of the hebrew language The less likely that person was to accept the apocryphal books.

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Remember augustine Is very important in promoting the deuterocanonicals because he thought they were part of the jewish canon and he was wrong

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Which is why tradition always needs to be able to be examined by a higher standard, which is the standard description.

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So I was thinking Yesterday uh about um

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Something that I I should have said during the debate And Again, you know, there's lots of stuff you can think of And it's just it's it's the issue's time

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You know, do you have time to explain it? Do you have time to explicate it? Is it going to leave people wondering what in the world that was that about have no idea that that means this person seems confused

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You know, there's lots of things come up So I wrote trent horn a a post on twitter

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I still call it twitter and I still will um I said trent horn two quick related questions that should have come up in our debate, but didn't first Are you familiar with anyone in church history say up to the year 1800

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That believed paul was in error about the day of the lord generally and more specifically use that as the means of allowing

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First corinthians 3 to remain relevant to some concept of purgatory the aiken argument

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Back up if you haven't listened to the debate you need to but one of the glaring

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Errors in rome's abuse of first corinthians chapter 3 Is the fact that the day will show it

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In paul's language there the day is obviously the day of the lord. It's the day. It's the final day of judgment

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But purgatory doesn't take place the final day of judgment Purgatory takes place before then It takes place as soon as someone dies

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And so how can that be relevant? And so it came up in our argument our debate

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I said You know, he said well as jimmy aiken has suggested

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Paul was wrong about the day of the lord. He thought it was going to happen in his lifetime And then toward the end of his life started to realize it was otherwise, but he had already read first corinth

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Had already written first corinthians Three So here's the idea um, well

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We don't have to worry about the fact that it says the day of the lord because paul was wrong about that now

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I sort of think that's the end of the debate As far as first corinthians 3 is concerned to be honest with you um, but Trent's a brave guy.

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So he threw it out there. And so I asked um Anybody in church history?

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Uh cardinal bellarmine Maybe I mean he wrote a lot on purgatory. It was very important in that subject.

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Uh council florence Something, you know really official like that Doctors of the church stuff like that anybody prior to The enlightenment and the popularity that the apostles could get things wrong popularity that view um

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I think it's a it's an important question Because you know when I first started debating roman catholics, they're always like oh

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It's just a novel protestant interpretation and you need to have the consistent interpretation of the church down through uh years and all that kind of stuff

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And now the novel interpretations are being used by catholic apologists. And what's interesting is um they're primarily using novel protestant interpretations to defend

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Their new novel francis style

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The days of francis, you know, uh that came up What purgatory was like in the year 1600 what purgatory is like in the year 2024 are very different things

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They're very different things And nobody back in 1600 would even recognize

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Someone going well, you know, it might be instantaneous and it might just be this it might They'd be going what?

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We've been told this is the church's teaching And it involves temporality it involves.

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Okay, so Temporality passage of time. There's the first question secondly In the same time frame.

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Do you know of any early church writers all the way up to the modern period? Who understood tau ergon the work?

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In first corinthians three the work that's being judged Uh the quality of that work

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That it's being judged by the fire gold silver precious stones wood hay straw Taught aragon in first corinthians three to refer to converts as suggested in light of the thesis of daniel frayer griggs which is what um

41:12

Trent presents in his book and what he was presenting in the debate And that is that what you have in first corinthians chapter three is a testing of different christian leaders converts

41:24

And some of those converts would be wood hay and straw some of those converts would be gold silver precious stones.

41:31

Um and That's just an incredibly unusual reading

41:39

And then the idea being well if your converts don't turn out, right? Don't even know how you make the connection here.

41:45

Zami. Oh, you will suffer loss And he wanted to go and I did talk about how bar aren't ginger and donker.

41:52

Well be dag ba gd second third editions um The term can mean punishment

42:01

But paul never uses it though He says he would suffer the loss of all things for the sake of jesus christ

42:06

That's not being I will be punished for all things for the sake of jesus christ completely different concepts and But the idea

42:15

I guess is well if your converts don't turn out too well, then You will be punished purified somehow.

42:22

It doesn't make any sense um you you Do yourself a favor take

42:30

The answers that peter servinces gave me in 2001 take the answers that Uh, tim staples gave me and what was that 2010?

42:38

Is that when we did the dividing line debate? I think it's 2010 And then take the answers to trent horn gave

42:46

Just put them together or try You won't be able to they are all over the map all over the place the infallible church and her representatives

42:59

I i'm just pointing it to you point it out to you So I I asked these two questions yesterday because i'd be interested in what the response was.

43:07

Well, what's really interesting? um He says there's many things I could ask you like the alleged sabbatine privilege from a forged papal bull you brought up in closing

43:16

But I won't because our debate is over. Although i'm sure purgatory will come up again on our programs Be well and prayers for your debate with dale tuggy.

43:24

Well All right. Um It he's under no obligation to answer a question, that's fine um

43:34

They're perfectly valid questions But I but the excuse that he gave us well

43:41

Like the alleged sabbatine privilege from a forged papal bull you brought up in closing

43:48

And here's what I I wrote in response I said, um, i'm sorry you chose not to respond

43:53

Um They are important questions going to methodology consistency and the like But the issue that sabbatine privilege is not so easily dismissed

44:04

Since whether it was a valid papal bull or not is not relevant to the point. I was making and this is important um

44:13

My argument was not there was a papal bull that uh provided this No, i'm well aware of the fact that there's allegations.

44:21

It was forged and it and it never happened and stuff like that the problem is

44:28

That Rome has given people permission to believe it I didn't ask but if I had asked anybody out here wearing the brown scapular,

44:38

I bet you people would put their hands up I bet you it's a carmelite thing And you got to understand, you know dominicans and franciscans and carmelites.

44:48

They're all doing this Uh political stuff for hundreds of years

44:56

And so I went on to write let's say it wasn't real

45:04

Though a faithful catholic is allowed to believe in the idea is set forth another truly odd idea The point is that those who opposed it

45:12

Mainly political reasons fights between different groups carmelites things like that Did not do so because it clearly is based upon the presence of what we might call normal time in purgatory

45:24

Nobody said oh, that's silly There are no saturdays in purgatory Just like the fire may just be jesus

45:32

An assertion by the way that you quoted in the debate um On the alibastucky show as coming from benedict 16th

45:41

But I looked it up the only official wording I could find had him saying Um some recent quote some recent theologians

45:50

Are of the opinion That the fire which both burns and saves is christ himself the judge and savior

45:58

Which is hardly an authoritative pronouncement. I mean, that's what he said some Recent theologians are of the opinion.

46:07

This is now dogmatic teaching this is Because he took that as well.

46:12

There you go. See we've never defined what fire was. Oh, yeah, sure I can show you pictures of a of a hand burned into wood of a of a religious sister who appeared

46:24

Out of purgatory to warn people and it's still there and they still venerate it and all the rest this kind of stuff

46:31

Yeah, but that that's what that church that has never really spoken on about fire. And in fact, you know uh, maybe you know, it's just jesus, you know, oh, that's a

46:41

Opinion of some recent theologians. That's really authoritative

46:47

Um, anyway, this can't be right because purgatory might be instantaneous No, everyone recognized that purgatory involved time lots and lots of time

46:58

Which is why you could get hundreds of years of indulgences by visiting relics and climbing stairs on your knees

47:05

Nobody would be doing that if they bought into today's diminished doctrine of purgatory Remember how pope innocent the third?

47:13

appeared to saint lutgardis of a weirs in belgium,

47:20

I probably slaughtered I wear I wearious who knows it's a y w i e with a grave accent r e s

47:33

Anyways appeared to saint lutgardis of someplace in belgium. How's that? Pope innocent the third one of the most powerful medieval popes

47:47

Appeared to this saint from purgatory And said quote said to her alas alas it is terrible

47:58

And will last for centuries if you do not come to my assistance Centuries from all the greatest popes in history

48:11

That was the relevance of the sabbatine privilege and that relevance remains. So in other words the relevance of pointing to the sabbatine privilege is

48:19

It was based upon the idea that time passes in purgatory long periods of time

48:27

Centuries and if people didn't believe that then Why did you measure?

48:34

indulgences in days months weeks years Of time out of purgatory

48:40

If there is no time in purgatory Oh, it's just no that's what people believed be honest

48:48

Read the books are being written at the time. Not only the visions of saints But read the theologians of the time

48:58

And they are not sitting there going. Well, you know, we don't really know if time passes not doing any of this stuff

49:06

There was a visceral Terror of the punishments of purgatory

49:12

There were tremendous discussions about the location of purgatory. Most people put it in the bowels of the earth near hell so the same fires of hell uh would be used for the purification of those who would eventually be getting out but Are going through the process of purification?

49:31

They talked about location. They talked about time to talk about all these things what they didn't talk about is liberation theology

49:37

What they didn't talk about is 21st century sensitivity to such issues And the fact that there were thousands and thousands tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands maybe even millions of roman catholics over Not just decades but centuries who've worn the brown scapular who've prayed the prayers

49:58

And they believe that on the saturday after their death if they died wearing that scapular

50:05

You know how many how many roman catholic soldiers died in world war i wearing that scapula How many in world war ii and they believed?

50:15

that If they died wearing that scapular that on the saturday after their death mary herself

50:22

Would descend into purgatory and release them from the sufferings now all sorts of theological problems with that I mean if If you need to be there for a hundred years because of all your attachments not punishments even though you know, that's the language um

50:42

Mary's showing up. What what's she going to do? Just provide you the massive plenary indulgence right then there or something

50:47

I don't know I don't know the whole thing's a mess and where there's No apostle of christ ever even dreamed of this type of stuff

50:56

It's so far removed from romans, you know, if you're pretty much just reading romans and galatians and philippians and hebrews and stuff like that You're going what are you babbling about?

51:06

I Get it. I I understand. Um So, um

51:16

So some guy named Uh, oh, it's the militant thomas guy. Well, what what do you expect?

51:21

Uh christian b. What is it wagner? Is that the name militant thomas? Mr. White? I don't know how to say this nicely

51:27

But you are simply annoying The debate happened it is now over act like a man and move on no need to rehash the debate 20 ways on twitter

51:38

So if you comment about it and you bring stuff like that that up, I'll just just just move on You want someone who's annoying

51:46

There's there's the annoying guy right there. It's funny how the those who are annoying don't realize how annoying they are Yeah, so I just feel like it's really really important to um to start charting

52:03

What seems to me? to be a a path

52:11

That rome's apologists are starting to choose to use when you because when you start

52:18

Going with well paul didn't write that. Well paul was wrong about that. Uh, well this progressive protestant exegesis that's never been heard of by Any church father by any pope by any council by anybody rome catholicism?

52:34

We're gonna go with that as our way of defending this point That didn't happen when I first started debating catholic answers.

52:39

That didn't happen But it's happening now And the question is why?

52:46

Um is is it because of francis? Is it because it's?

52:52

It's inevitable to recognize The people he's putting in places. He continues to put in places.

52:58

I just I don't know where I could find the the twitter uh the tweet that I saw But oh, yeah, you know,

53:06

I mean the vatican was huge on on the vaccines big big big time into into the vaccines

53:14

And one of the women That I think worked for pfizer or moderna.

53:19

I think it's pfizer on the vaccines which we now know are killing people to this day, um

53:29

He placed her on another vatican board another vatican council Uh, you know that last year he put people who have made pro -choice statements on pro -life councils.

53:43

I mean It doesn't take a genius to get red -pilled and go This guy is seeking to fundamentally change the roman catholic church in all of its aspects including the aspects of its scholarship and sure

54:00

Were there roman catholics at boston college in the 60s? That would have said paul was wrong about this But oh, yeah, because you know the jesuits and those people have been and he's a jesuit have been

54:11

Out in the forest for a long long time Uh, I get it

54:16

But is that what's causing all this? Is that what jerry maditax saw

54:22

I wonder some of you most of you don't know who jerry maditax was

54:29

I need to find that picture. I do have it In fact, I have it in my photo thing the problem is

54:39

It's amongst twenty two thousand six hundred and one other pictures That's the uh, uh, that's that's the problem with that Uh is that it's you know, good luck finding uh

54:54

Anything in here I I sit here and there have been times because I was looking for stuff where i've just scrolled and scrolled and scrolled and scrolled and um nothing

55:07

Uh There it is Oh, that's boy is that Wait a minute.

55:16

Okay. There's two of them. Maybe this will be a higher quality Nope looks exactly the same.

55:22

Okay. Well, whatever uh

55:32

Yep, okay Ding ding ding ding ding there There's jerry

55:40

And that's a picture that catholic answers published in This rock magazine.

55:47

It was a full size Inside cover. I think maybe the back cover. I think it was an inside cover of this rock magazine sometime um, what 89 90 91

56:03

I don't think it was 91 89 90 somewhere in there That's jerry maditax. Jerry maditax was the first ordained pca minister to convert to roman catholicism

56:14

He was staff apologist for catholic answers Uh, i've debated him I believe 13 times

56:22

Um, the first debate I ever did was against jerry maditax in august of 1990 uh at saint cyprian catholic church in long beach, california on solo scriptura

56:35

Debated him twice on solo scriptura Uh once on long island once in california, so both ends of the country,

56:42

I guess and He was their man. He was the one going around debating everybody from uh, calvary chapel and all sorts of stuff like that They don't talk about him anymore

56:56

Um, they don't talk about him anymore because of the fact that Not only did he leave and that would have been early 90s because I debated him on the papacy in 93 and he was already he had already left catholic answers

57:13

And Keating and madrid had still recommended him for the debate but I don't think they would much longer after that because I don't know exactly when he came straight out and said i'm a

57:26

Sedevacantist i'm Uh, I don't believe there's a valid um Pope today

57:34

And stuff like that. Um I don't know exactly when that was But I always gotten the feeling

57:41

That that was what had started it That he had started to ask questions or started to take positions that catholic answers look catholic answers has to be very careful they do all sorts of presentations in churches and stuff like that and they're uh tiptoeing between all sorts of landmines

58:04

And they were doing that before francis now Well, it's big time, uh, not easy to do i'm sure

58:14

And so you don't hear almost any discussion about jerry, of course challenged Keating and madrid and all these people to do debates and they would never

58:23

Touch with an info poll. I think he did debate bob singenis, but singenis got himself into all sorts of trouble, too

58:30

And sort of you know was out there with the geocentrism and plays around the sedevacantist groups

58:35

And you know, I don't know like I said, I don't know where he is now but anyway, uh

58:43

These these guys back then They they did not in in in any way shape or form take

58:53

The perspectives that are now being taken by Trent horn, jimmy.

58:58

Aiken. Jimmy. Aiken was around back then um, but I think there's been a whole lot of Doctrinal development, um for jimmy aiken as well uh, so What are we seeing?

59:12

What what does this mean for the future of catholic apologetics? I'm, not sure uh francis's impact is huge And I have to wonder if his death or resignation whichever comes first Is isn't going to have even greater consequences

59:35

Because of the system he's put in place That would basically hobble any conservative that might be elected which

59:47

Given the system he's put in place. It's actually impossible to have happen anyways So It's fascinating to think about these things.

59:56

It really really is fascinating to think about these anyways Got to get to the conference.

01:00:02

Um Got to see keith foskey wrestle late in flowers Um, sam waldron's there.

01:00:09

Uh, it's it's going to be really really interesting and um Pray for us that the lord be glorified in what takes place during the course of the conference

01:00:19

Uh, that means today will be the last of the programs. Um, not again i'm recording

01:00:25

Like I think it's tomorrow night Uh an hour and a half with it's marlin, isn't it on youtube?

01:00:32

I I don't have time to grab it right now. Um, but we're going to be doing a thing on the um,

01:00:39

Trinity prior to the council of nicaea. I think that I think it will be live. I'm not 100 certain about that I think it will be maybe if it is

01:00:47

I can ask him for the link and I can post or something like that. Um, but uh, then

01:00:53

I don't know If the debate will be um broadcast live or not

01:01:01

I don't honestly remember Oh But anyways, uh evidently the internet's train wreck and we're gonna have to upload this stuff anyways, so Just recording it.

01:01:16

Hopefully enough of it got through that some of you were blessed But we'll see a lord willing next week as we travel back to Well, no

01:01:26

Early next week as I travel over to Arkansas I'll be teaching thursday friday and saturday.

01:01:33

So there's no way to do programs then so we'll have to get something in early uh, and then travel back down to houston and Two more debates, uh down there long trip

01:01:44

Thanks for your support Travel fund that's how we get through all of this um, and um

01:01:51

I'm sure this uh internet wreck stuff is All i'm hearing about at &t's down and all the rest of that stuff.

01:01:58

Obviously the aliens are landing it's a mother ship over there running through all the all the Poor little defenseless satellites and it's all over with anyhow