Overcoming Despair with Tony Miano

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I thought I was never going to be able to, uh, open air preach again. Uh, it wasn't, it was not only my ministry, but it was the way

00:06

I supported my family as well. And I, I panicked. I went,

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I mean, it was, uh, I went into a panic and that started me down the road of despair and anxiety, uh, to a level

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I had never experienced before. Me, I need a friendly voice with song, good theology,

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Calvinist speaking. So I mix a manly drink, pepsi, and I hit the

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YouTube link. Don't say hit, that sounds violent. And I feel my troubles all melt away.

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Oh, it's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Bosley.

01:05

Beards and bow ties, laughs till sunrise, it's your

01:13

Calvinist podcast with Keith Foskey. He's not like most

01:21

Calvinists, he's nice. Your Calvinist podcast is filmed before a live studio audience.

01:30

And welcome back to your Calvinist podcast. My name is Keith Foskey and I am your

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Calvinist. One of the most difficult things that we have to face in life is times of despair, times of anxiety and times of depression, and where you live in a world that seeks to give all kinds of answers to that, some of the answers, which are not really biblical.

01:53

And today I have with me a good friend and an evangelist and a person I have known and loved for a long time.

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Tony Miano is going to be with us today, sharing about his new book called Overcoming Despair.

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But before I bring him on, I just want to remind you of a few things. Number one, this show is a ministry of Sovereign Grace Family Church.

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So if you are in the Jacksonville, Florida area, we'd love for you to visit with us and you can learn more about us at sgfcjacks .org.

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Also, you can support the show by supporting our partners and we partner with tinybibles .com.

02:25

You see these little things on my desk? They're actually full Bibles. It's the smallest printed Bible you can get on the market today. And they provide these at a wonderful cost for people who want to have them either as a family heirloom, as a useful tool, or something that can be hidden just about anywhere if you need to have a

02:40

Bible that you can take with you. So find them at tinybibles .com and you can use my first name,

02:45

Keith, and you will get a percentage off. All right, I want to now bring Tony on and we're going to continue this conversation that we began on the subject of overcoming despair.

02:58

Tony, thank you for being a part of the show today. Pastor Keith, thank you for having me. Absolutely. And just about,

03:05

I guess, was it six months ago you first sent me your draft of the book to give me an opportunity to read it?

03:11

Was it about that long? Yeah, I think it was about then. I think it was somewhere around February is when I started to reach out to a few people to ask them to read the manuscript.

03:19

Well, I want to start by saying thank you for giving me the opportunity to read it. And I learned a lot from it, but also was challenged by it.

03:29

And to be quite honest with you, I was surprised at your story, not in a bad way.

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I want to be clear. I was surprised because, and I've shared before some of the struggles that I've had with things like anxiety.

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I was surprised at the parallels that you shared in the book. And I just want to tell you, as I said in my endorsement for the book, the first half is riveting, the second half is challenging.

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I mean, it's just the best way I can say it is I couldn't stop the story.

04:02

Your story is amazing and so much, I think, going to be a benefit to people who've gone through these things and hopefully will point them to where they can find some real hope.

04:14

So for those who don't know you, and I know, obviously, I've known you for a while, we've seen each other at a few different events, and obviously

04:22

I followed your ministry for a while, and you've been on my show before. But for those who don't know you, can you give us a little bit of your history, your street preaching ministry?

04:29

I know you were with Ray Comfort for a while and all those things. Just a quick rundown of your history. Sure. Well, again, my name's

04:35

Tony Miano. For those who don't know, I'm a member of Grace Fellowship Church here in Davenport, Iowa.

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I'm married now for 39 years to the bride of my youth, Maria.

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Together we have three adult daughters. Our youngest daughter was just married this last

04:54

Saturday. So Saturday we became empty nesters. We've got three grandchildren at present,

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Jashani, Caleb, and Bethany Rose. And I serve my church as a full -time evangelist.

05:10

I've been a full -time evangelist in one context or another for about 20 years. And prior to that,

05:16

I spent about 20 years in law enforcement in Southern California. That's amazing.

05:23

And yeah, I've heard your evangelism interactions.

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I know you used to carry a GoPro with you. Do you still do that when you go out? I do from time to time.

05:36

I don't as much anymore. Not for really any particular reason. I've always been very careful not to allow a camera to get in the way of the gospel of a conversation.

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And I also have to check my own heart as to why I'm videoing the conversation.

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Is it truly for the edification of the saints and to get the gospel out to other people? Or is there still some remnant in there of Tony who wants the attention?

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And so I always have to balance those things. I praise God for my pastors and my church family to help me keep those things in check.

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And sometimes I just go out without the camera just so I don't have to think at all about video or anything like that.

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And just make sure I'm giving 100 % attention to the soul in front of me. But I still maintain a

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YouTube channel and I still post videos from time to time.

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Sometimes I'll just go out with an audio recorder and I'll post an audio, discernment audio, or something like that of a conversation.

06:41

You know, that's awesome. And I'll put a link to your YouTube page in the description so people can go see it.

06:47

As I said, I'm always encouraged when I watch you interact with people. You have such a pleasant, but still commanding way in which you share the gospel.

06:59

And I say commanding, you were a police officer, so there's a certain presence that you have, but also you're so pleasant and loving in your presentation.

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I've just always been very moved by that. I want to say something though, and this is way off the topic. I promise we'll go back to the book in a minute, but do you remember when we were in Milton together at the

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Open Air Preaching? Yeah, that's where we met. Yeah. Well, you said something about, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

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This was, it was about Facebook and YouTube. It was about cameras and stuff. And it causes me to check my heart.

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And I don't even know if you remember saying this, but you were talking, you were, you were on the stage with some other guys and, and, and, and I don't remember if it was like during a

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Q and A or something, but you said, he said, you said, yeah, this morning I got up and, and, and, and I, and I had to check my

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Facebook, he says, and I forget if you said like, I had to chase the likes or like, you want to see the likes, like you said that, and then you kind of made the point that, that, that sometimes can drive us and it's not good that we're, that we're, that we're, that we like that, that I mean, if you said the word dopamine hit, but something like that, like, like we like this hit of like this good feeling that we get when we see people like the stuff that we do, or we like the videos that can be a, a powerful and negative reasoning for people to go out.

08:17

If, if we won't go out and evangelize without the camera, then we probably shouldn't do it with the camera. Yes. Amen. Uh, and that's,

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I still have to keep those things in check in my own life. You know, I, I'm thankful pastor Keith that, you know, as you described, uh, how you see my interaction with people today,

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I'm very thankful for that. Um, I had to confess and repent of a number of years ago of being an angry, angry street preacher.

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Um, and it was really the ministry of my church, my pastors, uh, who helped me to see that, that while I would always insist that I'm not fighting with people,

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I'm fighting for the souls of people. Um, many years ago, I was probably more looking for the fight with people.

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And, but over the years, the Lord has convicted me of that kind of sinful mindset and, uh,

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I think has tempered me a great deal in my interactions with people. I think part of that as well, pastor

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Keith is due to the fact that now that I'm living in Iowa and no longer in Southern California, my ministry on the streets has changed a great deal in Southern California.

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Uh, my primary ministry was open air preaching. I could go to any street corner anywhere in Los Angeles County and have hundreds of people around me to open air preach.

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I come to Davenport, Iowa almost eight years ago, and it's rare to find a crowd of any kind, except that maybe a particular event.

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So over these last eight years, while I still open air preach, the majority of my conversation these days are one -to -one conversations with people on street corners.

09:54

Do you still go to the coffee shop with your computer, with the little sign that says I'm Tony, uh, sit down and talk to me?

10:01

Yeah, I do. In fact, uh, the laptop I'm looking into has that placard on the, on the back.

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And while I'm not drinking as much coffee anymore, when I am out, I like to go other places to write.

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The white noise helps me concentrate on my writing. Uh, silence actually is a detriment to my writing.

10:21

And so I got the idea years ago that, well, if I'm going to spend time in a coffee shop writing, let's see if we can make it evangelistic in some way.

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And so I have a placard taped to the back, to the lid of my laptop that says, hi, my name is

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Tony. I'm a Christian. Uh, have any, you know, do you have any spiritual beliefs? Do you have any questions? Have a seat.

10:39

And over the years, a few people from time to time have, you know, and it's funny, there've been a couple of times where people have walked up and I've looked at them like,

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I don't know you. And I forgot that I have the sign on the computer inviting them to come over and sit down and talk to me.

10:53

Uh, but I've, I've been able to have a few really good conversations that way. That's so fun.

10:58

I, Steve Lawson talked about how sometimes when he was preparing sermons, he would go and he called it renting a booth at McDonald's.

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He says it costs the cost of a cup of coffee. He said, you rent a booth at McDonald's for the cost of a cup of coffee and you can sit there and write.

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And that noise helped him. So what you just said is, is seems pretty consistent. Yeah. Well, brother, you sent me the book, the book tells your story and I don't want to be the one who tells your story.

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And my, my, my biggest thing is I want people to read your story, but I still want to ask you just a few questions to kind of give people a taste of what the book is about.

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Because when I met you back in Milton and even knew about you before then,

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I did not know that you were struggling with anxiety and that you struggled with depression.

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And, and, and I know we use these words because that's the vernacular of the world. And I know that in the book you talk a little bit about not adopting the world's language, not giving into the world's definitions, but for the simple, just to get us started,

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I didn't know you were suffering from these things. I didn't know you were struggling to, to, to a lot of people, they would have never thought that.

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And I think that's the danger of having a platform is people think that the man on the platform has no, has no, uh, you know, failures.

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He, you know, he's, he's the one and yet you were, so can you kind of tell us when that, when that started?

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And, and like I said, don't tell us everything in the book. I want people to, but, but, but kind of give us the parts you feel comfortable telling us today.

12:34

Um, so when you and I met, uh, I'm going to kind of leapfrog a little bit.

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By the time you and I met, which was probably 2012, 2013, I had already been on antidepressant medication for a couple of years.

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So when you saw me, when we first met, I was not having any kind of struggles.

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So I thought with anxiety or depression, and I'll talk a little bit more about that, um, but the, the struggles with these sins and, and I will always refer to them as sins.

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I do not believe, uh, from what I've learned, um, from the word of God, I do not believe that these are illnesses, diseases, or disorders.

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Um, I believe these are things that we do. These are not things that we have.

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And I explained that I explained that in the book, but, uh, it started for me very, very young, uh, probably the age of 13 or 14.

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Uh, I had my, I had no idea what I was dealing with, but now looking back,

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I had my first bout at, if we could say with anxiety and depression at about the age of 14, uh, when

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I received news of the death of a loved one and receiving that, and I think that was the first time in my life that someone

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I knew passed away, I'd never experienced that before. And I immediately was gripped with the fear of death.

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Every, everything, everything around me was going to kill me. I wasn't going to,

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I wasn't going to make it till my 18th birthday. Um, I had no thoughts of taking my own life, at least not at that time, but I was afraid of everything.

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I was afraid to eat. I was, uh, I was afraid of germs. I was afraid of injury.

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I was afraid of everything. And this went on for about a couple of months. Now, uh, by this time, it's just my dad and me and my three younger sisters in the home, and my dad had no idea, no clue as to what was going on with his son, who yesterday was a 14 year old, you know, athlete, uh, aspiring to big things in athletics and, and, uh, seemingly having no issues of any kind at all to the next day, who are you and what have you done with my son?

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And that went on for a couple of months and it just went away.

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It just seemed to go away. And I was fine for the next year, year and a half or so.

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And then out of nowhere, it just came back. This, this gripping fear, this, uh, anxiety, um, uh, what the world might describe as obsessive compulsive behaviors.

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Um, came back about my sophomore year of, of high school thereabouts. And again, for like a couple of months,

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I was, I had no idea who I was. I couldn't sleep. I couldn't eat. And then it just went away.

15:52

And then for sure. Have you heard of the term existential dread? Um, I've heard both those words, but never put together.

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Because, because your experience is so familiar to me. Cause at 19, I, I experienced my first dealing with anxiety and it was over death.

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It was, it was about the fear of death and it really is what you're saying is so similar. But I've come to learn that there's a term, it was like the term for everything, but the idea of fearing your own mortality, the existential dread.

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And, and, and I've, I've come now that now that that terms in my mind, I actually hear people talking about it all the time.

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I hear people, you know, doctors and different things using that phrase. And this is what they're talking about. That, that, that, that overwhelming sense of you're going to die and you can't do anything about it.

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And, and that's it. And so I just wanted to, I don't know if you'd ever heard that term. Yeah, no, no, I hadn't.

16:45

Uh, and then, so from there, I, for the next several, many years, many, many years, there was nothing like that at all in my life now, as my wife, uh, who's sitting off in the dining room could testify, there were still, there were still some things, you know,

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Tony was careful about what he ate and where he ate and things like that. And, and we just chalked it up to, you know, the quirkiness of Tony, you know, but, but as far as that kind of gripping fear, that anxiousness, that deep sorrow, none of that I didn't for a 20 year law enforcement career,

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I didn't experience any of that. I mean, I was in some of the worst situations you can imagine, uh, dealing with the worst that man could do to his fellow man day in and day out.

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And, and I, it really, not that it had no effect on me, but I didn't struggle with any kind of anxiety or depression or anything like that, uh, during that time, it, it, it went, uh,

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I went so long, uh, that I never thought I was going to experience it again, but then in about December of 2009, it came back with a vengeance.

18:01

Hmm. And when it came back, you decided that the, the, was it at that point, you decided that it was the medication that was going to help you or you, again, not don't want to tell the story for you, but you, you, at a certain point you decided to go on medication.

18:19

Yeah. So December of 2009, uh, it was actually something happened as an open air preacher, your instrument is your voice.

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And, uh, something happened during 2009 that I thought my voice was gone for good.

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I thought I was never going to be able to, uh, open air preach again. Uh, it wasn't, it was not only my ministry, but it was the way

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I supported my family as well. Uh, and, uh, and I, I panicked,

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I went, I mean, it was, I went into a panic and that started me down the road of despair and anxiety, uh, to a level

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I had never experienced before. And so for the next five or six months, uh,

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I tried in a sense, I tried everything. I went through biblical counseling. Um, I communicated with my pastor, communicated with, uh, dear brothers close to me in Christ, obviously my family.

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And it got, it got so bad that it was suggested to me, Tony, you might need medication.

19:30

And that was the last thing I wanted to do for me. That was with all of the pride and ego and everything else in my mind to go down that route.

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I was giving in, I was quitting. I w I wasn't trusting Christ. I had come to faith in Christ in 1988.

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By the time this happened, I had been a Christian, you know, for, uh, you know, well over 20 years.

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Um, and, uh, and so what does this say about my faith? And so it was suggested to me, you need to go see somebody.

20:03

You need to, I think you need medication. And so I called,

20:09

I called the psychiatrist's office, talked to a very nice lady and I told her about my misgivings.

20:16

The, um, the, the doctor was supposed to be a Christian. I don't have any reason to doubt that.

20:23

Uh, and I told her about my misgivings about medication. And she said something to me, brother, which

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I talk about in the book. Uh, she said something to me that almost immediately made it okay for me to take the medication.

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And what she said to me was, Oh, these are just vitamins for the brain. Yeah. I remember that from the book.

20:44

Yeah. Yeah. These are just vitamins for the brain. And so I thought about that for a second. I thought, there it is.

20:49

That's what I needed. That's what I needed to hear. I can work with that. I can go with that.

20:55

And I started, um, I started to take the medication and so it was

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April, May of 2010, when I first started taking medication, uh, after several months,

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I started to feel like my old self again. And, uh, I had never thought that the medication would be a long -term situation.

21:18

And, and so by the end of two 2010, now, by the end of 2010,

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I decided, you know what, things are good. I want to get off the medication, worked with my doctor to slowly come off.

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Uh, the antidepressant I was taking, uh, but within a month or so the anxiety and the depression came back.

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And, uh, and so I called the doctor in a panic said, oh no, it's back again.

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And he said, well, we'll put you back on the medication, but because you were on it and came off it, we're going to have to start you at a little higher dose than what you were taking before.

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I didn't even care at that point. And I knew there was something that happened.

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And I do want people to read, read the whole story.

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I want them to get all of the context of what happened, but there were, there was something specifically that happened as I put, went home, put that pill in my mouth, a pill that wasn't supposed to start working again for two to three weeks, but soon as that pill touched my tongue,

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I felt relief and I knew I, and I knew I shouldn't have physiologically speaking,

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I should not have felt any relief putting the pill in my mouth, it was going to take two to three weeks for it to work into my system and start doing whatever that medication does.

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And so I, I knew, I knew at that moment, I said, wait, there's, there's something else going on here, but I wasn't at that point ready to admit it.

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And so I resigned myself to the fact that I was going to take, uh, antidepressants the rest of my life.

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And, and after a short while, uh, I began to feel better, began to feel great.

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In fact, and up and up, uh, that would have been beginning of 2011.

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Now, when I reached, started to take the medication again and from 2011 through March of 2018, life was great.

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Life was amazing. I didn't, I didn't have any issues with, uh, with anxiety or depression.

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I didn't have any kind of travel anxiety. I used to hate to travel. Um, and I used to,

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I just, just traveling, being away from home. Yet I was, as an evangelist,

23:53

I was doing it a hundred days a year. Um, but through that season of 2011 to 2018,

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I loved to travel. Everything was, everything was fine. Uh, I went on my first trip to Kenya in 2017 with one of the pastors of my church here in Iowa.

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And it was a pastor, Mike, it was, it was pastor Nick that I went with the first, the first trip.

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And a great trip, wonderful trip. No issues at all. Um, I went to Africa for crying out loud.

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Didn't have any issues of any kind with travel anxiety or food or anything like that.

24:31

It was a wonderful, wonderful trip. And then the following year, um, I find out on a

24:38

Sunday morning from the pulpit from pastor Mike that me, him, and pastor Nick were heading back to Kenya, um, in, in a few months.

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And, and I felt what I would call a twinge in my heart and my mind and I knew what

24:54

I knew immediately. It's like, Oh, you're anxious about this for some reason. Why are you anxious?

25:01

And, uh, the anxiety started to build slowly leading up to the trip there in Kenya, the second trip to Kenya.

25:10

And, uh, we get to Kenya and the world just falls apart.

25:16

Um, and, uh, and now I, now

25:21

I'm petrified. I'm taking the medication. I have been for eight years and now on the medication,

25:29

I'm experiencing anxiety and depression, and my first thought wasn't to cling to Christ.

25:40

My first thought was to call the doctor and ask whether or not I needed more. And, uh, and I confess that to pastor

25:49

Mike, um, I testify in the book, uh, what that night was like, uh, knocking on his hotel room door and, and describing what was going on, describing to him my desire to take more medication, his encouragement and counsel not to do that.

26:06

Um, and then, uh, I got through that night. The next couple of days were, were pretty tough.

26:13

Uh, and then I decided to call the doctor and asked to take more medication.

26:20

And with just a phone call, I was able to get exactly what I wanted, uh, which is a big problem with these medications and the way that anxiety and depression is treated by the world.

26:34

Um, there was no diagnostic testing of any kind, no blood tests, no, uh,

26:39

CAT scan, no X -rays, no MRI, nothing, just anecdotal stories about how

26:44

I felt. And I was given a pill and all I had to do was say,

26:50

I don't want to take it anymore. And I was helped to get off the medication. And then all

26:55

I had to do was say, yeah, I want it again. And I was given the medication. I think

27:00

I need more. And I was given more. And the, to my pastor's credit, although I hated them at the moment, when

27:12

I confessed to them that for one night I took more medication, they said to me,

27:17

Tony, you're Joneson, you're, you're acting just like an addict.

27:25

That was probably the most offensive thing anyone could say to me, the retired street cop evangelist that I'm an addict.

27:36

Um, but I had developed at the very least a psychological dependence on that medication.

27:44

And so we would get home from Kenya. Uh, and, uh, I was continuing to take the medication meeting with my pastors, uh, receiving counsel of one kind or another almost daily, but with no pressure.

28:00

Hey, get off the medication. But on my own,

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I decided, look, I, I am too dependent on this. I need to stop taking it.

28:11

And so it was a call to my doctor. I'm in Iowa. The doctor's in California. One call to the doctor.

28:18

I think I'm being, I think I'm too dependent on this. I think it's time to get off.

28:24

Okay. And he helped me to wean off the medication. And as the, as the last time, uh, back in two early 2011, when

28:35

I tried to come off the medication within, uh, once it was completely out of my system before too long, the anxiety started to come back.

28:43

And, uh, and then I wrestled with, I wrestled with going back on the medication.

28:49

I, I managed to, to pit my doctor against my pastors and my pastors against the doctor, uh, by, you know, sharing with each of them what the other was saying.

29:01

And, and I, I went back on the medication for a short time, came back off it.

29:07

And I started to develop, uh, what's known as a fib, atrial fibrillation, irregular heartbeat.

29:15

And so as I'm talking to the doctor one day, uh, this would have been late, uh, late 2018,

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I just, as an aside said, Oh, by the way, you know, now I have a fib and they said,

29:33

Oh yeah, I can't put you back on the medication. Uh, that's one of the side effects.

29:38

That's one of the possible side effects of this medication. And I hadn't, I hadn't up to that point that, that to best

29:47

I could tell, I, I hadn't experienced any kind of side effects to the medication. And he said, look,

29:54

I, I can't put you on something different. Uh, you know, I got to be able to see you in person. You're going to have to find a doctor there in Iowa.

30:02

Um, and there was no way I was going to do all of that. And I didn't want to try another medication. And, and I decided they're sitting in my car talking to him that I'm never going to take this medication again.

30:13

And it struck me. It struck me how easy it was for me to say, well, because of these other factors,

30:21

I'm not going to take this. And it hit me like a ton of bricks at that moment that, you know what?

30:27

I never needed this to begin with. I never needed this to begin with.

30:33

And so for the next several months, um, uh, my church family and I, my family worked through, uh, being off the medication and staying off the medication.

30:45

And that would have been, uh, early, uh, late 2018, again, early 2019.

30:51

And, and I haven't taken any medication since now. Um, you know,

30:58

I, I've been off the medication now for years, but that is not to say that I never experienced anxiety and depression anymore.

31:06

In fact, uh, um, I went several years without experiencing any of any kind.

31:13

And no sooner had I finished writing this book, brother, that it was if the

31:18

Lord was saying, well, okay, good. You wrote that book. Let's see how much you believe it. And started wrestling with some anxiety and depression again.

31:30

And, but this time though, instead of turning to a doctor or medication,

31:39

I turned to Christ now, look, I've, I've been a Christian for 36 years, uh, and sanctification is an ongoing process.

31:49

And some sins, the Lord takes away in an instant and some sins we deal with for some time and it's never a license for sin, it's never an excuse for sin, but I praise

32:00

God. I praise God that when those moments of anxiousness come, when those moments of sorrow come, the remedy is

32:10

Christ. The remedy is in the word of God. The remedy is not in what the world says, uh, is the answer to an illness, disease, or disorder.

32:21

The remedy is repentance and faith in Christ. That is the remedy for these kinds of sins and any kind of sin.

32:30

It is repentance and faith in Christ. Do you find that your experience parallels at all with what

32:40

Spurgeon referred to as the dark night of the soul? Have you, did you do any study of that?

32:46

Have you, have you found any parallels there? Well, you know, I, I have. I did a lot. I've done a lot of reading in preparation to write the book, did a lot of reading on anxiety and depression in the midst of it, uh, back in 2010, 2011.

33:00

Uh, interesting brother, it seemed as, as I was dealing with these sin issues in my life, that the

33:09

Lord saw fit to bring other people into my life who were struggling with it, having no idea that I did, uh, looking, seeking counsel, uh, for reasons unknown to me, uh, coming to me, asking for counsel about anxiety and depression.

33:27

And, uh, one of the benefits of going through biblical counseling is that the goal of biblical counseling is to prepare the counselee to be a counselor.

33:37

Uh, the goal is, is so that Christians can counsel Christians.

33:44

That's, that's one of the main goals of biblical counseling. And you're talking about like ACBC association of biblical.

33:51

Yes. Oh, okay. Yeah. The good guys, I would refer to them. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I know sometimes people talk about Christian counseling and different things, but specifically you're saying, yeah,

34:01

I'm specifically talking about the, uh, the J Adams, uh, ACBC form of, of biblical, of biblical counseling beginning and ending with the gospel.

34:12

And, uh, and so having gone through, through that, having read quite a bit, um, you know, when

34:21

I was in the midst of the anxiety and depression, sometime it was a morbid interest, I think, in what others went through in the past.

34:28

Um, but as I've, as I've studied and researched these things,

34:33

I read about, you know, Martin Lloyd Jones's book, uh, spiritual depression, wonderful, wonderful work, um, read, uh, what

34:41

Spurgeon wrote of himself and what others wrote of Spurgeon, uh, yeah, there were nights as he referred to the dark night of the soul, there were nights where the only prayer

34:50

I could utter was, I will not deny you today, Lord, I will not deny you today.

34:56

Now with Spurgeon, um, some attribute what he experienced to, uh, some of the physical things that he dealt with.

35:06

Uh, it's believed that he struggled with gout. Uh, ultimately it was, uh, uh, a kidney disease,

35:13

I believe of some kind that would ultimately take his life. And certainly these things could have attributed to his mood.

35:21

Certainly, um, you and I have been talking, uh, about this a little bit over the last few days and, and certainly, um, you know, the weather, uh, diet, health issues, sleep, lack of sleep, there's all kinds of environmental physiological, uh, things that can attribute to one's mood, but that being understood.

35:49

None of that gives us a license to take those circumstances, environmental factors, biological factors, and then justify behaving in such a way, thinking in such a way, feeling in such a way that the

36:06

Bible clearly says is sin. Do not be anxious. Do not worry.

36:12

Do not be fearful. Uh, why is my heart, why is my soul downcast?

36:18

You know, I, I, it's beautiful. I think in the Psalms, uh, pastor, how, how

36:24

David so often he'll begin in a sense, confessing, being downcast, being despairing, uh, being fearful.

36:35

And in the midst of the Psalm, we see his repentance happen on the page with him ending with, with praise and thanksgiving and glorifying

36:48

God. And, and we see in the Psalms in part, a biblical fight against anxiety, anxiety, and depression.

36:59

And, and while Spurgeon, uh, was, was open about his despair, he never in a sense gave into it saying, well, this is just who

37:09

I am, this is what I have. No, he would, he fought against it. As I, every morning

37:16

I, I host a Bible reading program on YouTube and I, I begin before I read the

37:23

Bible, I read the morning devotion from Spurgeon's morning and evening devotions. And so often

37:30

Spurgeon talks about despair, but never giving into it, never giving license to it, but giving the remedy for it, worship, praise, thanksgiving, remembering who

37:44

God is, trusting in his word, believing on Christ, remembering what Christ did. Uh, and so while Spurgeon did battle, uh, despair at the very least, uh, despair, maybe what we would call depression today, um,

38:00

Spurgeon fought against it and, and never gave license to it, at least not in anything that I read.

38:07

Sure. And I think that's, that, that's very helpful is, um, several things that you've said, uh, one is that this, every, everyone deals with different besetting sins, you didn't say the word besetting sins, but that's what you're referring to, right?

38:25

The sins that we did, that we struggle with as believers, whether, whatever they are, and I'm not,

38:30

I'm not, I'm not trying to, uh, discount it, but I'm saying if this, if, if we recognize that it's a sin, but, but it's not as if we are saying that this is a indication that a person is an unbeliever, because you said you've been a believer since 88, but you still struggled with these things as a believer.

38:49

Am I saying that correctly? I, again, again, not, not trying to discount it or overlook it.

38:55

I'm just, I, I, I'm thinking about the person who's listening to this, who's saying, well, I I've, I'm, I'm, I'm experiencing these thoughts.

39:04

Does that make me not a Christian? Yeah. So a

39:09

Christian can sin in this way. Christians do sin in this way. How the

39:16

Christian responds to the sin, uh, is, is very important as they examine their own hearts, test their own hearts to see if they're in the faith.

39:27

Um, you know, I'm not, I'm certainly not sitting here saying, you know, to the person who's watching, to the person who's listening,

39:33

Hey, if you're experiencing anxiety and despair, you should be questioning your salvation.

39:39

Uh, I'm not, I'm not saying that. Uh, at the same time though, if we, if we just give into it and say, well, this is who

39:50

I am, this is how, and we hear this a lot from mainly unbelievers, really.

39:56

You know, this is just the way God made me. You know, we, we hear that said about different categories of sin. Uh, and this is just the way

40:04

I'm going to be the rest of my life. Well, I don't think that's a biblical position. I think when we are anxious and the word of God says, be anxious for nothing, but in everything through prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding will guard your heart and your mind in Christ Jesus, then the

40:24

Christian's response to those moments of anxiety should be to remember that they ought to be anxious for nothing, to confess that sin to the

40:32

Lord, to seek, to repent from that sin, to turn from it. And a way to do that is with prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, making our requests known to God.

40:42

Uh, in the book, uh, something that was really helpful to me. Um, and that I, I still remind myself of is the acrostic stop.

40:52

Uh, when I was going through biblical counseling many years ago, uh, the person who was counseling me use the word stop to help me to, uh, to understand how to think rightly or how to respond when

41:05

I'm feeling anxious or depressed or despondent S seek the

41:10

Lord in the moment, uh, the moment that thought comes to mind and the word of God says we are to take every thought captive, the moment that happens, seek the

41:23

Lord, uh, what, uh, uh, for me and other people I've known that have struggled with these sin issues, uh, we call it around here, the snowball effect that we start to think in ways we ought not think, and instead of immediately fighting against it, instead of immediately telling ourselves the truth, uh, we allow that snowball to build.

41:48

And the thoughts just get deeper and darker and more fearful. And before you know it, you're on this giant snowball rolling downhill.

41:55

And you, it just seems like there's no way to get off it. Well, the best way to get off the snowball is to never get on it.

42:02

And a way to do that is as simple as it may sound is to stop, you know, think about that new

42:09

Bob Newhart skit, right? Yeah. Where yeah. $5, two words, stop it.

42:15

And there have been times where my wife has given me that counsel, not in a, not in an antagonistic, sarcastic, flippant kind of way, not trying to be

42:24

Bob Newhart, but Hey, Tony, stop it. There've been times where my pastor has said, Tony, just stop it,

42:30

Tony, just stop it. Well, the way to do that is first seek the Lord. The moment that thought comes into your mind, go to the

42:37

Lord in prayer, fight it, wrestle with it, fight the good fight of the faith by seeking the

42:43

Lord in prayer. And it's, and what I've learned over the years, brothers, and I don't,

42:48

I don't want to do the whole book, but what I've learned, what I've learned over the years is that seeking the

42:56

Lord is not just crying out, help, make it stop, make it go away.

43:01

Sorry. Did I blow your ears out on that one? I'm sorry. No, no, no, no, no. I was just adjusting my earpiece. No, you're fine. You're fine.

43:07

Um, it's not just crying out for help. It's, it's praying biblically.

43:12

It's praying strategically. It's, it's, it's praying Thanksgiving. It is so difficult, near impossible to be truly thankful to the

43:21

Lord and despondent at the same time. It's very hard to be truly thankful to the

43:27

Lord and not just hurling up. I'm thankful for this. I'm thankful for that. You know, not turning prayer into a pill.

43:34

That's very important, but to truly be thankful to the Lord and seek the

43:40

Lord in prayer, it is very difficult to be, to remain anxious, to remain despondent when you're truly thankful, when you're truly worshiping the

43:51

Lord with praise and thanksgiving. Um, so seek the Lord. Uh, the, uh, the

43:59

T is think of things above, uh, uh, Philippians 4, 8 gives us that beautiful list, uh, of things to dwell upon.

44:08

Well, if we look at that closely, every one of those are characteristics of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

44:14

We are to dwell on him, to dwell on Christ, to think of things above. One of the greatest things

44:21

I ever learned from the late great Martin Lloyd -Jones was in his book,

44:26

Spiritual Depression, when he wrote, and I'm paraphrasing, he said, what Christians need to do is stop listening to themselves and start telling themselves the truth.

44:37

And so much of anxiety and depression is listening to the thoughts in our head, to listening to the lies that we're telling ourselves, to listening to the, um, the, uh, the fears and the worries about tomorrow when today has enough trouble of its own, um, to globalizing a situation, blowing it out of context, uh, and just allowing those thoughts to snowball in our head instead of taking that word of God that ought to be written on our mind and our heart and speaking that truth to ourselves.

45:11

It's not, it's not the power of positive thinking. You know, it's nothing like that.

45:16

It's, it's reminding ourselves of the truths we know and believe from the word of God, reminding ourselves of who

45:24

God is and that we are not him, reminding ourselves of the salvation that we have in Christ and that he'll never leave us or forsake us.

45:32

And there's nothing that can separate us from the love of Christ. Reminding ourselves that the, that the worst thing that can ever happen to us in this life, death is the embarkment on the greatest thing that will ever happen to us.

45:46

Eternal life. We close our eyes in this life and we open our eyes to be in the presence of the Lord. To be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the

45:54

Lord. And we remind ourselves of the truths of who God is, his character, his power, his work, and who we are in Christ.

46:03

So seek the Lord, think of things above. This one, very important.

46:09

Anxiety and depression are very selfish sins. We are, we become,

46:15

I become the center of the universe. Everything is about me. Everything everyone is saying is about me.

46:22

Everything that's going on in the world is about me. The universe doesn't exist much outside of me.

46:29

It could be a very, anxiety and despair, anxiety and depression can be very selfish sins.

46:37

Well, a great way to be, to combat that is the oh and stop other mindedness. Be other minded.

46:44

Do for others, pray for others. Go out and serve others.

46:49

Go out and serve the Lord. Be other minded. And then the

46:55

P is simply persevere. Don't quit. Jesus said, those who persevere to the end will be saved.

47:02

He's not saying if you persevere to the end, you will be saved. He's saying, since you are saved, you will persevere to the end.

47:09

So if I am indeed in Christ and God has caused me to be born again to a living hope,

47:15

I am going to persevere to the end. No matter what this world throws at me, I will persevere.

47:22

And so I have found that acrostic over the years to be very helpful and to me and others. And I explained that in more detail in the book.

47:31

And remind me again, the, the acrostic, this you got through biblical counseling, this was something you created, right?

47:38

No, no, no. This was something, this was someone, the biblical counselor I was seeing, I don't know who gave it to him, but he gave it to me and I've shared it.

47:48

With others as a result. Well, you know, I, I mentioned to you several times in our preparation for this podcast that, you know,

47:56

I've, I've struggled with, uh, I struggled with anxiety beginning at age 19.

48:02

I remember specifically when it came on, um, it was actually part of what led me to Christ and by God's grace,

48:08

I never took medicine. But even since then, I've had those times where you said, like, since, since completing the book, you had a season where, or a moment where you felt that coming back,

48:19

I know that feeling. I know what you're talking about. I know that since I, I call it the dark cloud, the despair, you know, like I feel like it's just like, like my whole world just went dark and, um, but by God's grace,

48:34

I've never, I never took medicine. I, and I, I had a, a genuine, like with my wife, cause we talked about it a lot.

48:42

And I said, you know, I just, I want to find, I want to find a way not to to, to do that,

48:49

I want to find a way. And by God's grace, it was through, um, I tell you the funny thing for me was you talking about seeking the

48:58

Lord. Um, I found a lot of, I found a lot of peace and apologetics. I know that may sound like a weird place to go, but like just finding things to help me remember the truth.

49:07

And so I read a lot of, of, uh, apologists. I read, I remember just listening to the

49:13

Bonson -Stein debate. Um, Greg Bonson debated Gordon Stein back in the eighties and it was the great debate over.

49:20

And I remember just listening to that and finding great comfort in Bonson's reminder that there's no way that God does not exist.

49:29

Taking that presuppositional approach that everything flows out of God and finding my peace and comfort in Him.

49:36

And again, I'm not saying I'm a model for anybody to follow after or anything like that. I'm just saying that's what God did to help me was to point me to that.

49:44

And I'm, and I'm thankful. So I'm, I'm, I do encourage people, if you're going through this, find somebody that you love to talk to that loves the

49:52

Lord and will point you to Him. Um, and biblical counseling is, is, is a good way for that.

49:58

And thankfully those guys are all around. The ACBC guys are all around. Yeah. And in fact, uh,

50:03

Pastor Jeff Kirkland, a very dear friend of mine. He pastors, uh, Christ Fellowship Bible Church down in St.

50:09

Louis, he is a, uh, uh, certified biblical counselor and he wrote one of the forwards, forwards to the book.

50:16

And so one, um, as I, as I had offered the book up for people to read,

50:22

I went to, I went to people I knew and trusted. Um, and I, and I went to people who

50:29

I knew would give the book a fair and honest reading.

50:34

They weren't just going to slap their name on it because their friend Tony wrote something. Uh, and that was very important.

50:41

And then there have been, uh, there have been, uh, uh, a few other, uh, biblical counselors who have not yet come out publicly to endorse the book, uh, but who have read the book and said, yeah, we agree, we agree with this book and he's going to get some pushback, uh, from this book as well.

51:01

Um, but I'm thankful that the book I believe has been, has been well vetted.

51:07

Uh, and has been, uh, looked at with discerning eyes and godly eyes and biblical eyes from pastors and, and biblical counselors and, and some of them like yourself appear in the front of the book, you know, with their endorsements.

51:23

You know, Pastor Keith, uh, one of the things I learned while, uh, once I came off the medication was that as I was taking the medication and as I was deciding to take the medication,

51:39

I had convinced myself, um, with the help of what I heard from others or a few others is that get your mind back on track, get a handle on this thing so that you can repent of the anxiety and depression.

51:54

This medication is going to help you repent of your anxiety and depression.

52:00

What I learned in my own experience, Pastor, is that not only did the medication not help me to repent of the anxiety and depression, it kept me from repenting of the anxiety and the depression because when it all went away,

52:23

I equated that with repentance when, when the feelings went away, when the moods and the emotions went away, when

52:31

I was quote unquote my old self again, I equated that well, I've I've, I must have repented, but all, but all that medication did was suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

52:49

It suppressed my, by suppressing the mood in a sense, it suppressed my need to repent of those sins.

53:01

And that, that was really driven home to me when the anxiety and despair came back while I was on the medication and then thinking,

53:12

Oh, I just need more medication instead of first thinking, Oh no, I need to repent of what I'm doing here,

53:17

I need to repent of how I'm thinking, I need to repent of the behaviors that are coming as a result of how

53:23

I'm thinking, I need to repent. And so when my, when I thought about, well, no,

53:28

I just need more medication, you know, over time it dawned on me, this medication was actually keeping me from repenting.

53:36

It wasn't aiding repentance. It was, it was keeping me from repenting. Wow. Well, brother

53:46

Tony, we're, we're, we're getting close to the hour, Mark. And I, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, uh, coming up, but I do have one final thing

53:54

I'd like to ask you. And I, and, and, and I do want to encourage people, uh, the book will be live when this goes live.

54:00

So go to Amazon, find it. Uh, the title is overcoming despair. And then there's a subtitle.

54:05

What was the subtitle? The battle you are fighting has already been won, but if you just go to Amazon, look up overcoming despair, maybe add my name, you know,

54:14

Tony Miano, you'll, you'll be able to find the book on Amazon. Excellent. Well, the question

54:20

I want to ask you as we close, and, um, I, I, I didn't tell you I was going to ask this, but it actually just came to my mind.

54:26

So this is a, this was, as I was thinking, you know, cause you've mentioned a few times you expect that there's going to be some people who disagree with you.

54:33

You expect there's going to be some things, um, that maybe some people read some different conclusions on.

54:39

What's one of the things that you expect that people will disagree on? And what's maybe a preemptive response to, to that disagreement?

54:47

If you don't mind me asking. No, sure. In fact, if we have time, I'll mention, maybe mention a couple, but one we've talked about, um, just in passing,

54:55

I think, I do not believe that anxiety and depression are illnesses, diseases, or disorders.

55:04

They are not, they are not ailments that we have. They are things that we do that come out of the heart.

55:16

Jesus never called anyone to repent of an illness or a disease. When a blind person or a deaf person came to him, he didn't call them to repent of their blindness or their deafness.

55:27

When a leopard came to him, he said he didn't refuse to heal them. He didn't tell them to go repent.

55:33

When the, when the woman with the issue of blood came to him, touched the hem of his robe, he didn't turn and say, woman, you need to repent of your bleeding.

55:42

He never called anyone to repent. He never commanded anyone not to be ill.

55:49

You know, but yet over and over again, in the word of God, we are told not to be anxious, not to be worried, not to be fearful, not to be afraid, not to be downcast,

56:00

God's word commands us not to do these things. And so I believe there is biblical support, as I point out in the book, to make this assertion that anxiety and depression are not illnesses or diseases that we have.

56:18

These are behaviors that we do. These are things that we do. And we, and, and, and to clarify, and I do,

56:26

I do want to clarify this, things like grief, we wouldn't tell someone not to grieve at the loss of a loved one or something like that, or even to have concern over something serious, as Paul had concerned,

56:35

I just preached in second Corinthians where Paul was concerned for the Corinthians when he was in Macedonia. The, this is not what we're talking about.

56:42

At least I assume that. Yeah. Right. And, and, but Paul didn't remain there, right?

56:47

Paul didn't, Paul didn't get to this place of despondency and, and, and, and anxiousness where he's no longer trusting the

56:56

Lord. He's not believing the word of God. He's believing what he's thinking instead of what the word of God is, is saying.

57:03

Um, so again, that look, the, the book is specifically dealing with sinful anxiety and, and, and depression.

57:13

Uh, and, and so yes, while we see instances, uh, where, where a person grieves or a person mourns loss or something like that, they are not places of despondency where the person remains there and just wallows in it and says, this is the way

57:31

I am, this is okay. It's okay. If I feel this way, it's okay. If I think this way, no, they, again, even with, even with David in the

57:39

Psalms where he admits, where he acknowledges his despair, where he acknowledges his fear, he turns from it, he turns from that and he trusts in the

57:49

Lord and he's able to find joy in the Lord and peace in the Lord, even in the midst of circumstances that might lead someone to despair or despondency.

57:59

He doesn't remain in that place. He comes out of that. He comes out of that place, recognizes that that's not where he should be, that the joy of the

58:07

Lord is his strength. Okay. And then, well, brother,

58:13

I thought you were going to say that that's what I was waiting, but go ahead. And then, um, uh, this idea of chemical imbalance in the brain.

58:22

Uh, actually it's probably not going to be much of the medical community who is going to push back against that.

58:27

It's going to be Christians as I was doing. I was going to say that's, that's the part I expect you to get the biggest push back on is, and you, and you have a lot of footnotes, you have a lot of references in the book, the fact that there isn't any there, the proof of, of chemical imbalance that, that, that, that, that, that that's a big issue right now.

58:45

Right. And there's no evidence of a chemical imbalance in the brain that leads to or causes anxiety or depression.

58:55

It's you, it's nowhere, it's nowhere to be found at all. There, there's no blood tests.

59:02

There's no kind of medical test at all that says, Oh yes, here's the chemical imbalance that's causing this person to be anxious or afraid or, or despondent.

59:13

But yet people are still being told. And many Christians are still believing this myth that there is a chemical imbalance in the brain that's leading to anxiety and depression.

59:25

And so pastors, instead of biblically counseling their people out of these behaviors, out of these thought sins, they're simply handing them off to doctors who are giving them a pill.

59:37

And so they're putting, they're putting black robes over the shoulders of those who are wearing white lab coats.

59:44

They're giving a place of authority in the lives of people that ought not have that authority.

59:52

And, and unfortunately in much of my research, it wasn't the medical community as much anymore who is pushing this idea of a chemical imbalance.

01:00:02

It's still segments of the Christian counseling community and pastors where I'm hearing this idea, still hearing this idea of a chemical imbalance in the brain.

01:00:14

And so I addressed that in the book and I, I think the book does a good job of dispelling the myth that there's a chemical imbalance in the brain that causes anxiety and depression.

01:00:26

Ultimately pastor, this book, uh, it's not merely an expose on pharmaceutical companies or, or, um, you know, false ideas of a chemical imbalance in the brain or things like that.

01:00:42

What I want people to get out of this book is hope. I want them to find hope.

01:00:49

And that, and as Vodie Bauckham has said so often, our hope is not to be found in education, legislation, or medication.

01:00:57

Hope is to be found. The hope is to be found in reconciliation, reconciliation of man to God through faith in Jesus Christ.

01:01:05

And for the Christian, that is repentance and faith in Christ. And for the unbeliever, that is repentance and faith in Christ.

01:01:13

The answer is not a pill. The answer isn't the, the, the answer doesn't come from the

01:01:21

DSM, the diagnostic statistical manual for mental diseases and disorders.

01:01:27

The answer, the authority is the word of God and the authority is in Christ.

01:01:34

The hope is found in Christ and brother, whether I am having a day where I'm on the top of the world, believing the way

01:01:42

I should believe living the way I should be, or whether, uh, as you mentioned the dark cloud,

01:01:47

I see it coming. The answer, my hope is in Christ and in Christ alone.

01:01:54

And I believe this book is going to help people not because of the author, but because of the content and because of the biblical, uh, treatment of these issues and ultimately pointing people to true hope in Jesus Christ.

01:02:11

And that's what I want for people. Well, I'm, I appreciate that brother.

01:02:17

I am very thankful for again, having the opportunity to pre -read the book, to have that, that, uh, trust that you gave me to do that and to have the opportunity to, to write a little bit about it in the, in the forward or in the, um, in the introduction there, but thank you.

01:02:34

Thank you for writing it. Thank you for sharing. And I do encourage everyone, um, right away.

01:02:41

I want to say this, um, as you're listening to these things, some of these things may hit you and you, you may disagree.

01:02:48

You may right away have some things you want to say, um, read the book, go out and go actually read the book before, before you make a judgment.

01:02:57

Um, because I do think there's a lot of confusion in this area. I think there has been a lot of misinformation in this area and Tony has done a lot of homework.

01:03:04

There's a lot of footnotes, a lot of things that he's pointing to. So I want to encourage you to do that. And, um, again, uh, love to hear your thoughts in the comments, but please think about it as you're doing this, that the, that there's more than just this one hour conversation that's out there to be considered, uh, there's a, as, as he said earlier, it took him 10 hours to read, didn't know what you said, took you 10 hours to.

01:03:25

Yeah, we're working on the audio version. That'll be available at some point on Amazon. And again, the book's available on Amazon now.

01:03:32

Um, but yeah, it took me, if you listen to the audio book, it's a 10 hour listen. So, which means it probably took you 40 hours to record.

01:03:40

Well, yeah, it's pretty close. Yeah, I've, I've, I've been there. Yeah. And I agree with you, pastor.

01:03:47

I'm just asking people to, to give it a fair, to give it a fair reading and to read this book with an open

01:03:54

Bible beside it and see if what I'm telling you is true. That's right.

01:04:00

Be a Berean as, as the Bereans, uh, looked at what Paul had said and considered the scriptures so to everything we say, consider it by the word of God.

01:04:11

Tony, I want to thank you again for being on the show. Uh, one last thing, tell people, uh, you said you have a website people can go to.

01:04:17

I know we're pointing to the BIC today, but also to your website. Right. Uh, so we do have a website for the book overcomingdespair .com.

01:04:24

Um, I can also be reached through my church at gracefellowshipqc .com. And again, the books available for you, uh, in paperback and in Kindle, uh, on Amazon.

01:04:36

Awesome. Well, thanks for being on the show today, brother. I appreciate your time. Yep. God bless you. God bless you.

01:04:42

And guys, I want to thank you again for being a part of the show today. Want to remind you again, that this is a show that is supported by you from the sense of watching it and sharing it.

01:04:52

The more people that see it, the more people that will see it. So if you like the show, please take an opportunity and share it on your social media, wherever you do that.

01:05:00

Remember if you liked it, also hit the thumbs up button. If you didn't like it, hit the thumbs down button twice.

01:05:05

I want to thank you again for listening to your Calvinist podcast. My name is Keith Foskey. I've been your Calvinist.