Apologetics Session 13 - Soteriology - Part 1

The Importance of Getting Soteriology Right

Father, and pray that you touch a lot more tonight, Father, as Matt teaches. Thank you for Matt, and we pray that, Lord, you would be with him through this whole session of teaching, Lord, and Father, you would remind us of the precious words of grace and redemption, and Father, just your love, your tremendous sacrifice, propitiation, all the terms that we're going to hear in regards to salvation, that you decided to step into time, Lord, and lay your life down so that you could redeem a people for yourself, zealous for good works, Father.

We're so thankful, Lord, we can be here tonight, and we're so thankful you save us by your grace, Father. We pray in Jesus' name, amen. Amen.

All righty. So, just as a warning, you guys should all have Bibles or phones or whatever it is you're going to use, because there's going to be a tremendous amount of scripture that we're going to be going through today.

Because of the fact that this is one of the first few pieces of doctrine that we're going to be going through, I was very careful not to root a lot of this in my own opinions or feelings or beliefs, as much as what does the Bible say, what does the word of God say.

And so, that's what we're going to spend a lot of time actually talking about, which is, you know, what does this scripture say or that scripture say, and we'll go through that. So, to start off, I wanted to give some background.

When I took on soteriology as a topic, I was looking for good resources. I found a number of good resources, but one of the sort of mainstay resources that I used in preparation for this was a 52-hour soteriology seminary class that was done by Dr. Andy Woods.

I only went through seven hours of it, but it was 52 hours long if you go through the whole thing. I picked seven of the one-hour sessions to go through. Now, Dr. Andy Woods is not what I would call reformed in the reformed kind of, reformed if I have this kind of idea.

He is very much not a Calvinist. He has certain beliefs that I agree with and certain beliefs that I don't agree with. And so, I'm going to point out some of those disagreements as we go through this, but a lot of the teaching that he had was rock solid.

And I actually think it was a blessing that, you know, I think the Lord led me to his teaching because it challenged me to actually do more research and to think more about what it is that I actually believe, because I came in with a certain sort of bias or presupposition as to how I was going to study and what content I was going to pick, and him saying certain things challenged me.

And so, I thought it was actually really good for me to kind of go through that. I even bounced a couple of things, Pastor, just to cheat a little bit, because I bounced something off Pastor as well about some of what he said.

But I took the seven hours of teaching that he gave, that Dr. Woods gave, and contrasted it with other folks like John MacArthur and R .C. Sproul and some other apologists that I listened to, some of which are, you know, I think they're all believers, the ones that I listened to anyway are all believers, but they do have differing opinions on parts of soteriology.

I would say that we don't disagree on the poor parts, but some of the other parts we may have some differences on. So I think Dr. Woods was doctrinally sound in his teaching, I just think that there are some pieces of the doctrine that aren't necessarily poor that we have some differences with.

So the first question to everybody, what is soteriology? It's the doctrine of salvation, thank you. It's the doctrine of salvation. Specifically, the Christian doctrine of salvation, and in systematic theology, it naturally follows hemartiology, I think I'm pronouncing that correctly, which is what Drew covered last week.

So we started out this entire apologetics series covering some foundational topics, right, truth, faith, the Bible, the historicity of it, the archaeological and manuscript evidence for it. We talked a lot about why is it reasonable for us to be Christians?

Why not be Muslims, or why not be Buddhists, or why not be atheists, right? What are the underpinnings of why we should be Christians at all? So that naturally leads us into the doctrines of Christianity.

So once we say it is reasonable to believe in things like the historicity of Jesus Christ as a man, the historicity of his crucifixion, his resurrection, and so forth, now we want to get into what does it actually mean to be a Christian, right?

What do you have to believe in order to be a Christian? And so this will be the, well, just to talk about hemartiology a bit, there's a saying that I heard which I thought was interesting, you have to get someone lost before you can get them saved.

I think this is actually something that when Christians evangelize, they get wrong a lot of times. They start with, Jesus died for your sins. What they don't start with is, you're a sinner, right? And I think, what's the, Ray Comfort.

I think he does a really good job, if you've ever watched Ray Comfort YouTube videos, he is doing like street evangelism, and he always starts with that. He starts with, you think you're a good person.

Why do you think you're a good person? Have you ever lied? Have you ever stolen? Have you ever cheated? Right? He goes through those things to sort of show people that they are in fact not good people from a perfect and holy perspective.

They may be better in comparison to someone else, but that's sort of relative. That's not absolute. All right, so why is it important? I'll ask the audience here. By the way, there's going to be a lot of interaction here.

I'm going to be asking you to read scripture, and I'll ask questions, so be ready. But why is it important that we understand the doctrine of salvation? Say that again, Russell? What'd you say, Pete? I said, why is it important that as Christians we understand the doctrine of salvation?

Oh, that's a It's an easy one, guys. It is the core belief of Christianity. Without soteriology, without the doctrine of salvation, what are we doing? That's the whole point. It gives us a view.

Say that again, Russell? It gives us a view as to where we could or could not be going.

Exactly, exactly. It determines where you're going to spend eternity, just like Russell said. Are you going to spend eternity in heaven, or are you going to spend eternity in hell? As much as people don't want to believe in hell, or that a good God would judge anyone to hell.

It's a really big deal, soteriology. I think it's emphasized in Galatians 1, 8 through 9. Does somebody want to turn to Galatians But even if we or an angel from heaven should.

Preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preach to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you have received, let him be accursed.

So here Paul is basically saying there is a gospel, a teaching about how to be saved, that if anyone else were to preach something different, even if an angel were to show up supernaturally and teach you a different gospel, let him be accursed.

And that word accursed comes from the Greek word anathema. Some translations may have it there as anathema, which is not just saying we don't like you. It's a condemnation to hell. Let him be condemned to hell.

So it's really important, Paul emphasizes how important it is to get the gospel right. And when I read this, it was a weight, right? Because I'm going to sit here and teach, and so it's a weight to make sure that there's no error in that teaching, which is why I'm going to rely very heavily on scripture to do the teaching for me, as it were.

So Paul is clear that getting the gospel wrong comes at a cost, which is why I was incredibly careful in preparing for this study. Later, and there's a slide here that I, there was sort of the Hamartiology, Christology, and Soteriology, which is, this is just a neat graphic that I saw that had the transfers or imputations.

So sin came into the world, Christ came to take that sin away, and then Soteriology is how we can be saved. Later in the apologetic study, though, we're going to cover some other religions and cults. So Islam, we'll cover Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness, and some of the sort of, I'll call it bigger, biggish religions and cults.

We'll even cover some things that appropriate Christianity, like when you think of progressive Christianity, some of the deconstruction movements that are going on there. We'll probably talk a bit about those because they do a good job of appropriating Christian terminology without it actually being Christian.

So we'll cover some of those, but I thought it was really interesting in, when you reference Galatians 1, 8 through 9, that it talks about even if an angel from heaven were to come down, because Mormonism claims to have come from an angel, Moroni.

Joseph Smith claimed that Moroni, who was an angel, who was a guardian of these golden plates that contain the revelation of the Book of Mormon, that Moroni came down and gave him this revelation. So clearly Joseph Smith wasn't actually heeding the words of Paul in Galatians when it said, I mean, assuming that Joseph Smith is sincere even in his belief that an angel gave him that and he wasn't just making it up for himself, he certainly wasn't heeding Paul here.

Similarly, Gabriel supposedly came to Mahomet near Mecca, which is where the process of the Quranic revelation began as well. So both of these religions were supposedly imparted to their prophets by angels, in direct contrast to what it says in Galatians.

And Satan is a supernatural being, right? Satan is a fallen angel, he's a supernatural being, and he can certainly use supernatural means to deceive us if we're not careful. And so it's particularly important that we recognize what the Bible says about salvation and how to recognize false gospels so that we're not led astray.

The Meaning of Salvation in Greek and the Importance of Context

So let's talk a little bit about Greek. This is something that I didn't expect to do in this apologetics series, which is look so much at Greek words. It's so important though, I found it to be, you know, just so important to look at the original Greek words, their meaning, their context.

And so we're going to talk a little bit about that today as well. So we talked about, when I covered the manuscript stuff for the Historicity of the Bible, we talked about the New Testament being written primarily in Greek.

And so it's super important to understand kind of the Greek words and their meaning because the translated words, even if they're accurately translated, sometimes don't convey that same meaning. So this is not a knock on, like the ESV is a very literal translation, but even in those scenarios where scholars have taken the time to accurately translate those, you know, there's differences in the way that we use certain words.

So even if they're accurately translated, we may use them in different ways. So inspiration was one that I talked about when we were talking about the Bible, was that we use inspiration a lot of times to mean like that was an inspired book or was an inspired song, whereas, you know, the Greek was talking about it being God-breathed, right?

So there's a difference in the way in the English language sometimes we use it and it doesn't carry the same emphasis as it does if you look at it in the original. So anyway, the Greek word for soteriology, soteriology meaning the doctrine of salvation, it derives from the Greek word sozo.

Sozo is a verb, it means to save. Soteria is a noun which means salvation. Soterion is also a noun that means salvation. And soter is a noun that means savior, right? So this is where the word soteriology comes from.

Now, this word itself is not theological in nature, right? It's a word that would have been used in Greek. It doesn't always convey a theological meaning. So even in the Bible, it's used in non-theological ways.

When Christians use the word saved today, like when we talk about it, we're generally talking about salvation through belief in Jesus Christ, right? That's just, are you saved, right? But this word, and again, going back to understanding the Greek and the context of these things, it's important to know when we're talking about salvation and when we're just talking about something else.

So somebody turn to Matthew 9, 21, I read 21 and 22. So I'm just going to cite a couple of non-theological examples, just so you can see them in the text. Anyone, first one to get to it, just pop it out.

We've got a lot of these, so you've got to be a little fast. Matthew 9.

Matthew 9, 21 and 22. This, for she said to herself, if I only touch his garment, I will be made well. Jesus turned, seeing her, he said, take heart, daughter, your faith has made you well. And instantly, the woman was made well.

Right, so the word made well also comes from the root word sozo, right? So this is a passage of scripture where they're talking about being saved from her physical ailment, right? Turn to Luke 8, 36. This thing's made you sleep on me, I just know it, because I don't have as many slides.

And those who have seen it told them how the demon-possessed man had been healed. Right.

So again, the word healed comes from the root word sozo. I'll go ahead and read Philippians 1, 19, for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, this will turn out for my deliverance.

The term deliverance comes from the root word soteria, or salvation. In John 12, 27, it says, it's Jesus saying, now is my soul troubled, and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour, but for this purpose I have come to this hour.

So here, Jesus is saying, save me, again, a word coming from the root sozo, but clearly he's not using that in the theological sense because Jesus had no need for salvation, he was perfect. And so there's other passages where the word is used in a theological sense.

So Matthew 1, 21. Somebody want to turn to Matthew 1, 21? And then somebody else to Luke 19, 10.

So Matthew 1, 21. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.

Right. So again, the word save here being used in a theological sense. Jesus saving his people from their sins. Again, the root sozo there.

Luke 19, 10. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost. Right.

So again, clearly this is Jesus talking, that he clearly was using that in a theological sense. And then, lastly, 2 Corinthians 2, 15.

For we are the aroma of Christ the God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.

Right. So this is Paul, and Paul is using the word save in a theological sense, and it also originates from the word sozo. So the word can both be used in theological and non-theological sort of senses, but how can you tell the difference?

Context, right? What's the first rule of real estate? Location, location, location. Right. The first and third rule. So in here, we can say it's context, context, context, right? So we're basically, we need to be careful about the context.

There's a saying that I've used in the past in this apologetics class, right? I can do all things through a verse taken out of context, right? So that's obviously coming from, I can do all things through the one who, yeah, you got it.

So the thing that you'll see a lot of times when you're having debates with Christians and atheists is they will take verses out of context and then try to weaponize those verses against you. But a lot of times what you can do in those situations, and when we were going through the Bible class, when we were going through the history of the Bible class, I showed you Bart Ehrman talking about, you know, Mark's portrayal of Christ's journey to the cross and how he tried to say that they were contradictory, Luke and Mark's Gospels were contradictory.

And it was, there was a lot of taking things out of context that was done in that. And so that's a common, that's a common way that folks will try and twist the Bible to mean whatever they want it to mean, right?

They take a singular, you know, passage, they'll take a singular verse and try and twist that to mean something that it doesn't actually mean in its full context. And we're going to talk a lot about context when we talk about next week when we talk about Doctrine of Election as well, because, well, I'll save that for then.

But I think context plays a big part in that whole debate as well. Matt, can I just add one thing to that?

So when we spoke earlier about hermeneutics and exegesis, the verses, that becomes a critical connector to what you're talking about in terms of making sure that everything's lined up between the Greek translation and what was actually the context of that towards that.

Absolutely. And that's, a lot of times that's, you know, rolled over.

Yeah, it's particularly dangerous, and theologians are guilty of this too, you know, people who are far more learned than probably, well certainly I am, will, if they come in with a particular theology that they want to read into the text, they can usually find a way to do that, right?

They usually find a way to kind of twist things around and use certain things and read their own theology into the text rather than reading their theology out of the text, which is a very different way of approaching it, just let the word speak rather than trying to force the word to say something, right?

So yeah, enough about that. So one of the cool things, Dr. Woods had a table on here, it talked about the tenses of salvation, I thought it was a pretty cool, so if you guys can start looking up those verses, I think it's a pretty cool way of looking at salvation overall.

So there's justification, right, which is being justified or reconciled to Christ, which is sort of the past, so it saves you from sin's penalty. There's sanctification, which is sort of present tense, it saves you from sin's power.

And then there's glorification, which is future tense, which saves you from sin's presence. So effectively, when you're justified, when you're saved, when you believe in Christ and you've given your life to him, you are justified, you are saved from the penalty of sin, Christ blood covers your sins and saves you from that penalty.

And then throughout your Christian life, you go through a process of sanctification. So this is a deepening of your theology, a deepening of your knowledge, a deepening of your faith, and then eventually, when either the Lord comes back or you die, right, you will be glorified.

And this is where we're gonna, in a second here, we're gonna read some scripture, but in a second, we'll get to the first kind of disagreement that I had with Dr. Woods. So somebody has Ephesians 2, 8 through 9?

Say, by grace do you pay that not of yourself, it's a gift of God, not of worksless men, I suppose?

Right, right. So this is, you know, talking about your justification, right, the grace that Christ gives you through his death on the cross, and that it is actually a gift that you have nothing to do with, it is not you that does it, it's Christ that does it.

And this is one, this is one that we're gonna, again, get into next week. I'm having a hard time not going there, especially since Pastor preached on it this Sunday, but I'm having a hard time not going there, but we're gonna get to verses like these and to some of those topics.

Somebody have Titus 3, 4 through 5? Nice and loud for the tape. Yep.

Titus 3, 4 through 5. He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

Again, this is talking about that justification, right, the fact that Christ saved us not because of works done by us in righteousness. This is so key, right, because there are other faiths out there, you can think of some big ones off the top of your head, Catholicism being, you know, probably one of the biggest, which preaches Christ and, right?

It always preaches Christ and, and it's the and that's the problem, right? The minute you add anything to Christ's propitiation, his sacrifice on the cross, you've created a new thing, you've created a new gospel, right?

It's not the same gospel anymore.

Work Out Your Salvation with Fear and Trembling

Alright, Philippians 2, 12. Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence, but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

This is, this is a, this is one that always, that always gets me, and it's that last phrase, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. What, what do you think that means?

It's the personification within yourself that you are not worthy of having, having this gift, and that's the, as you dwell deeper into your, your path of sanctification, as the Holy Spirit opens up your mind and lightens your, your mind more and more of this, instead of being more bold and arrogant, you actually become more humble, and that humility is, is part of the, the fear that they're talking about here is not a sense of trepidation, the fear is a sense of glorification of, of, of who Jesus is and who God is in your life, and that's, and that's what that, that's what that is.

Well, that's, the verse right next to this says, it is God who is willing, is working and, according to His will, is doing these things in your life, and then it says, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, and it's, it's the Spirit of God within you being born of Him, as it said, washing and renewing of regeneration, as in Titus, that now He is moving in your life, and according to Romans 6, it's who are you going to yield to now?

The Lord wants you to do certain things according to His righteousness and His, His desire for your life, but you still have a nature that's pulling you in the other direction, which one are you going to yield to?

Right. Yeah, and there's an interesting saying that years ago a mentor of mine said that justification is not behavior, and it's a very, very important concept to put in the back of your mind, and it goes back to what you're talking about, where in terms of religion and works, it's not behavior.

Right. It is a gift. It is an absolute gift. Yeah.

So. Yeah, the fear and trembling, I also, like, I think through your justification you actually get a true picture of what your sin is, and how God looks at that, and you get a picture of who God is, and how holy and perfect and righteous He is as well, so I agree with everything that's said, but it's like, you also have this sort of, this sort of, like, realization of truly what Christ did, what God did through His Son Christ.

So, Romans 5, 9 through 10.

This is glorification. Since therefore we have now been justified by His blood, much more shall we be saved by Him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies, we the reconciled of God by the death of His Son, much more now that we are reconciled shall we be saved by His love.

Yes.

Yeah. So glorification, right? We'll be united with Christ, we will be, you know, freed from the presence of sin, we will no longer have a desire to sin, we will just be forever worshiping Him. So another way to look at this is, justification is I have been saved, I've been justified in the eyes of God.

Sanctification is I am being saved, right? I'm being sanctified and made more holy, set apart, not sinless but sinning less, and growing, I'm sure that you guys have heard that before, and growing more Christlike in the eyes of God, right?

And then glorification, I will be saved, one day I will die and be saved from sin's presence and have no desire to sin at all. So that's kind of a quick summary of, you know, have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved, right?

The Debate Over Carnal Christianity and Lordship Salvation

So, here's where we get to sort of the first disagreement between me and Dr. Woods. So, let's read Romans 8, 29 through 30, and then I'll get into it.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined, He also called. And those whom He called, He also justified.

And those whom He justified, He also glorified. What's missing?

What's missing? Sanctification. Sanctification. So in this passage, sanctification is missing. It's talking about justification and glorification, right? So, Dr. Woods posited that justification, once you've committed your life to Christ, you know, is a past act, and therefore, you know, sort of guaranteed, your salvation is guaranteed through that act.

And that glorification is the guarantee for the Christian, that all you need to do is die or Christ come back, right? And glorification is a guarantee. But that sanctification is not a guarantee. It's something that might happen, it's something that might not happen.

So, for sanctification, right, there are things that you're doing, right? You're in a church listening to, you know, preachers exposit the Word. You're studying, you're learning, you're trying to obey, right?

You're, you know, you're repenting for your sins, right? Dr. Woods makes a leap from this particular scripture that sanctification itself is not guaranteed, though, that is a possibility for a Christian, but not a guarantee.

So he believes in something called a carnal Christian. So, just for a point of clarification here, I think it's the next slide. You've heard Ivan, I think, say it a lot. I think Drew said it. We talked about sort of the two kinds of people, right?

There's the, those not in Christ, those in Christ, right? I think you can probably break it down to three kinds of people, but he broke it, Dr. Woods broke it down to four kinds of people. There's unbelievers, that would be first category, not in Christ, right?

And then there's those in Christ, which breaks down into sort of two categories, two subcategories, which are spiritual believers and infant believers. Now, what's the difference? The only real difference here is an infant believer or someone who was just saved, you know, is, you know, just like an infant being born, right, being a newborn, you're newly born again, right?

And so those Christians are new and they haven't had an opportunity to grow in the faith quite yet. And then there's more spiritual believers. I don't really like the term spiritual believers. It's his term, but I think of it more as mature believers, right?

So these are, you know, Christians who are maturing and growing, have, you know, have some maturing and growth already done. And then he adds a fourth category called carnal believers. So these are Christians who still live for the sin nature.

And so, needless to say, I scratched that one off the list. And so, you know, I'm not sure that I agree. And we can start having a conversation here about it. But I don't actually think the fourth category is a valid category.

We'll talk a little bit later about something called lordship salvation, which is something that I don't know if I'd say Dr. John MacArthur pushes, but it's come up in some of the conversation. We'll talk about some of the disagreements that Dr. Woods has with Dr. MacArthur on this whole lordship salvation topic and some of the reasoning that Dr. Woods gives around that.

But Dr. Woods believes that you can have an authentic faith in Christ, but continue to live in a sort of willfully sinful way. And I don't want to confuse carnal Christianity with just Christians that sin, because every Christian sins.

Every Christian sins most days, right? Every Christian still has the sin nature and still has to fight against that. And, you know, through the power of Christ and his Holy Spirit, he helps you to fight through that by taking away some of the sinful desires and helping to convict you when you do sin.

I think there's a verse that explains this pretty good. Go for it. I know there's a verse in Hebrews that says without holiness we will not see the Lord. But another verse is, for they disciplined us, this is earthly fathers, for a short time which seemed best to them, because all children need correction.

But it says, our heavenly Father disciplines us for our good that we may share in his holiness. He wants us to share in his nature, his holiness, and walk, as you're talking about, in sanctification. And if we stray from that path, as a loving father, he's going to correct us.

So he won't let us continue that way.

I agree. I agree. Go for it.

Yeah, and so to piggyback on that, in Philippians very clear Paul says, do nothing for selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourself, which is a clear evidence of true sanctification.

That's where that momentum is going towards. And so a carnal believer is basically, if it's such a thing, called a narcissistic Christian. You can say that.

Yeah, so what I wrote here, and I'll give you all the Word document that basically is my notes from this whole thing, but as Christians we sin because it's part of our fallen nature. We still live in a fallen world.

We still have a fallen nature. We still are tempted to do the wrong things. And so that's part of trying to live a Christian life, which is impossible to do outside of the power of Christ within us. But there's a difference, I think, and this is where I'm going to qualify with what I think, and I think a lot of you agree with me, but there's a difference in kind between sinning, like slipping up, and someone who willfully, continually, knowingly, as I put it here, not out of ignorance but with clear-eyed resolve, have determined that they are going to live a sinful lifestyle.

And for someone like that, I have a real problem believing in the authenticity of their confession. They may walk around saying they're a Christian, but there's lots of people that walk around saying they're Christians.

But I have a hard time believing that their commitment is, their belief, their faith is actually authentic. One of the proof texts that Dr. Woods used for this, though, is 1 Corinthians 3, 1 -3. And I'm careful to go through the text, but I also want to give the proof texts from the other side as well, because we have to contend with what the Bible does say, regardless of how we think about it.

But does somebody want to read 3, 1 -3, 1 Corinthians?

I do not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh. As infants in Christ, I fed you with milk, not solid food. For you were not ready for it, and even now you are not ready for it. You are not ready.

Should I keep going? Yeah, do it for 3. For you are still of the flesh, but while there is jealousy and strife among you, you are not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way.

So the claim here is that since Paul is using the term brothers, that he's talking to Christians, which he clearly is talking to Christians here. But he refers to them as infants in Christ and people of the flesh.

So infants in Christ, we've talked about that, right, that's infant believers. And then there are people of the flesh. What do you think he means by people of the flesh?

Living for their fleshly desires.

Right, and so the context here is that he's talking about, is he talking about unbelievers? Or because he used the term brothers, is he talking about Christians who are living for their fleshly desires?

I think the letter is definitely to a church, to a group of believers. But he realizes there may be those that are calling themselves believers that aren't. And at the end of 2 Corinthians, after he's had many, many things to talk to them about, about getting drunk, about sexual immorality, a lot of things, and he says test yourselves to see if you're in the faith.

Examine yourselves. Or do you not recognize this about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you? Unless indeed you fail the test. Right. So he's warning them.

He's warning them, yeah. And so I don't agree, again, I don't agree with Dr. Woods that this is really a proof text saying that there can be such a thing as a Christian who is carnal and willfully, with clear-eyed resolve, intends to live a sinful lifestyle.

I don't think that, as Drew rightly said earlier, that God would infuse someone with the Holy Spirit only to be ignored, to not be convicted. Now I do think that there are Christians who may fall away for a time for various reasons, right?

A hardship in their life, death of a loved one, something like that. But I believe that the Holy Spirit, if that person is truly a Christian, will bring that person back. That that person, while they may for a time fall away, will not completely go away.

But I do believe that there are people that walk around professing to be Christians that aren't. Whether it's because of what's termed as cultural Christianity, where they grew up and their parents took them to church and they went to church, and they're not really sure about the inspiration of the Bible, they're not really sure about Jesus being God, or Hebrew, right?

They can walk around and they just appropriate Christian terminology.

I think also to what you first started with talking about, that people need to be shown that they are lost before they can be saved. So somebody might have just been presented, God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life, and you're like, oh, I want that.

So they consider themselves a Christian, but they've not really had that true heart repentance,.

So they're not truly saved. Totally. And having grown up in the church myself, my dad being a pastor, I can totally see how easy it is. While it's a blessing to have Christian parents, the one, I guess, downside you can think of is the fact that you hear it on repeat, constantly.