Matt Slick Live: November 7, 2024

The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network.

It's Matt Slick Live! Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at karm .org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers.

Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

Opening Banter and Show Introduction

All right, and welcome back to the show. Hey, if you've been listening for a while, thank you. And if you're a new listener, thank you. Hope you all want to listen and have a good time today. Now today's date is 11 -7, that's November 7th, 2024.

For the podcasters, I hope you want to give me a call. The number is 877 -207 -2276. You can also email me info at karm .org, info at karm .org, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G. And you can put the subject line, radio comment, or radio question.

And we can get to it. We get to them usually on Fridays, but sometimes when it's slow, then we get to them during the week. And we have nobody waiting right now, so we may get to a caller or two. So my apologies, I'm still fighting a bad chest cold.

In fact, I talked to one of the board of directors who went on the trip to Israel, First Steps to Nepal, and he has the exact same issue, the exact same thing. And he's taking antibiotics, it's not doing anything to it.

So I think we're just going to have to just deal with it. And cough, I have coughed so much that my ribs were hurting, my muscles were hurting. They no longer are, they're just used to it. So they've all got strengthened up.

And sometimes I'll cough a lot for 10 minutes and then not for a while. Hey, you know, that's just what it is. So if you're on the air, or if you're listening, and I go quiet for a minute, that's why I'm just trying to, you know, cough.

But anyway, that's what it is. And my voice is starting to get back to normal. So that's good. So Joanna says her ribs are sore, she coughed all night. I once, I'm just rambling right now, I once cracked my ribs coughing once, I cracked them.

Oh man, I had something going on and I don't know what I did turned right or wrong or something, and then cracked them. Oh man, for another two weeks, I had to keep coughing. Oh, talk about horrible.

Has that ever happened to you?

Man, it was bad. All right, all right, all right. Let's get to some topics of some sort here. You know, I go into the virtual world, the Oculus, and I have an old one, and I want to get the newest one sometime, but because it's blurry and stuff, but you know, I go in there, I go into these rooms.

And I went into a Muslim room, and just listen, I didn't say anything this time. But when I go into these rooms, you know, I've told you guys this before, I'm getting now to the point where I just start off with one question to anybody I'm talking to, whether it's people who are in Oneness Pentecostal, Church of Christ, which reminds me of a debate coming up next month, the Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Muslims, Mormons, I'll ask.

Questions.

I'll say, what do you do to get your sins forgiven? That's the question I've been asking, because I think that's the heart of the issue. And in fact, yesterday, I went shopping, and on the way out, two Mormon missionaries were coming in, and I talked to them for about 10 minutes.

They were not used to someone having information and being able to quote stuff and do stuff, and after about 10 minutes, you know, they were polite, and I just said to them, look, you need the real God and the real Gospel, because your sins aren't forgiven.

Even in Mormonism, you're saved by grace through faith after all you can do, 2 Nephi 25 -23, and in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it says, paragraph 20 -68, that you attain salvation through faith, baptism, and the observance of the commandments.

And I was talking to, I think it was a Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox guy a couple nights ago, and I was getting to the same issue.

That's what I do.

That's what I do. So, man, I got this cough, sorry about that. I should take a, I'll get a cough drop on the break. And so, it was really bad, you know, I talked to these guys, and this is, I actually asked this question, it was last night or the night before, it was last night, I was talking to some guys last night.

And I said, if you were to pray and ask Jesus, they were Catholics, this is a Catholic guy. If you were to pray and ask Jesus to forgive you of all of your sins, you know, he has all authority, he's God in flesh, he says, come to me, he forgives sins.

If you were to ask him, would he? And the guy actually said, no. And I'm like, wow, and he said, no, because you have to go to the church. And of course, this kind of segues into something else. Someone said I need to write a book on this, but I'm not going to write a whole book, but I'm thinking about writing a pamphlet or some articles on the cult mind.

And I found myself last night having a discussion with this guy and some other guys who were saying the same thing. I said, well, this is part of the cult mind. And they hadn't heard that phrase before.

I said, no, the cult mind is that your church is the true church, and your church has the authority. And the cult mind just submits to whatever that church says, whatever it says, that's just it. And so you have to believe whatever your church tells you.

And I'm going to release short version, but we had this interesting discussion, but I was just dumbfounded that if you ask Jesus to forgive you, you mean it, he won't do it. Why? Because you got to go through rituals in a true church.

That's a perfect example of the cult mind. Let's get to Sean from Japan. Hey, Sean, did you call because I emailed you?

Yes, that's part of it.

Okay.

So I hope all that stuff gets solved quickly. So please, let's talk about that later. But I had an interesting experience with some Jehovah Witnesses that came to my door here in Japan. And I was very surprised because normally they don't come, but I wanted to share something with you and get your advice on this too.

So I was about, I was actually late to church on Sunday morning and they come to my door and they're like, you know, we want to tell you about the most popular book, the best selling book ever of all time.

And I was like, oh man, Christian Sciences? He said, no, no, no, Jehovah's Witnesses. And I, when I was getting to the conversation, I said, you know what, why did you come on this morning particular?

And then he said to me, oh, well, that's what our church tells us to do. It says to always go on Sunday morning. And I replied to them right away. It's like, is that so you don't talk to Christians? And they were just absolutely dumbfounded.

But I wanted to ask your advice on what's the best way to discuss with them. Yeah. But I wanted to ask, is the best way to discuss with them? And because a lot of times I feel like I can get really heated, especially when people are saying, you know, when people deny the divinity of Christ, it really gets to the core of me.

So how do we what's the best way to speak with them in a loving, kind manner, but also that gets the point across, you know, you're not actually worshiping Jesus, you're worshiping somebody else.

That's hard because what they're going to do is they're going to go to their New World Translation, which has been altered. And I was in Greece a couple of weeks ago, two and a half weeks ago, and there are two Jehovah's Witnesses there.

And we got talking in English, broken English enough to communicate. And I said, no, it doesn't say that in the Bible. And I said, let me show you your Bible. And I forgot I'm in Greece and they open up their Greek Bible and I'm laughing.

I can read that, you know. And I looked at the verse and it was even altered in their Greek. The Greek version was. Oh, wow. So. This is the problem with Jehovah's Witnesses. So what I resort to, as I was saying in the beginning of the show, one of the things I'll say is, are all of your sins forgiven right now?

You know, I say I don't want anything bad to happen to you, but if you were to die right now, where would you go and why? And that discussion I'm finding is getting right to the heart of things. And then I can try and weave certain conversations into it.

And with the Jehovah's Witness, I would say, well, who's the one who forgives? Well, God. OK. And did he give authority to Jesus? Well, yes, he has all authority in heaven and earth right now. Then shouldn't you go to the one who has the authority and ask Jesus to forgive you?

And this way, what you're doing is you're going against what they're what they've been taught because they can't pray to Jesus. But you're showing in the scripture it has the authority and Jesus has, you know, in Matthew 28, 18 and then John 14, 14.

Ask me anything in my name and I will do it. And so you can go to the Bible, their Bible, and you can use that. You can say, see, so can you go to him like he said? That's the thing I'm not prepared for.

And it's a pry bar on their foundation. You're kind of you're cracking it, you know, you're lifting up and moving a little. So that's one of the things you could do.

Because, you know, I like that one, I'll give that a try next time.

Yeah, they're trained to. They're trained for basic, common responses, and we show you something. Watch this. I'm going to JWBG .org. I hope you can stay on longer and I'm going to go to John. This is something I do with the the J-Dubs sometimes go to John 10.

I've got the New World translation up on my computer, so I'm looking at it. And John 1030, right? He says, I'm reading their Bible. I and the father are one. Then you can ask him, can I look at something in the Bible in your Bible, please?

John 1030, I and the father are one. Once more, the Jews lifted up stones to stone him. Jesus replied to them, I displayed to you many fine works from the father. For which of those are you a work? Are you stoning me?

The Jews answered him. We are stoning you not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself out, make yourself a God, say a God. But that's not a bad thing.

Jesus answered them. Is it not written in your law? I said, you are God's. And you can stop there and say, so the Jews thought that Jesus was claimed to be God. And and, you know, yeah, and he wasn't right.

And they'll say, that's correct. So you agree with the Jews.

Right. Hmm.

You agree with the Jews that he's not God.

Right.

And that's that shakes them up, shakes them up. Yeah, it does. So there's that, I can show you another couple of things that you can do in their Bible that, you know, could be effective if you know, if you have memorized, you know where to go.

But if you wanted to show you more, no big deal. So it's up to you.

OK. Yeah, I think to start with that first one, that's that's fantastic. And then we'll give that one a shot.

Yeah, there's a there's a lot of good stuff there. And, you know, I'm looking at their New World Translation. It is so bad what they've done to the word of God. These people are going to burn in hell for their alteration of the word of God in their deception, falling demonic teaching.

I'm looking at Psalm one, 16, four, and it says in the end duty. But upon the name of Jehovah, I proceeded to call. And it's not how it's rendered properly. And now if you go over to First Corinthians one.

Come on, get over there. Come on. This is what I'll do.

This actually brings up another question with the end of Revelation, where it says not to change a jot or tittle. And what are we to make of that? And when we have people who are earnestly trying to translate the Bible into a new language and make mistakes?

Well, that's different. Making a mistake is different. You know, you know, Japanese, you speak Japanese. So what if I'm learning Japanese and I try to translate a verse in Japanese and it turned out to be a heresy?

But you can see what I'm trying to do. You know, God's not going to judge me for that. You know, he's going to make a mistake. You make a mistake. It's unintentional. You know, he's going to quickly say, you've got to fix this.

OK, but and you would come to me and go, Matt, you can't write it that way because of this. And oh, thank you. But to do it on purpose because you know that certain verses support the deity of Christ and you alter them.

That's the judgment of God upon their hearts and minds. They're going to get judged. They're going to break you. And if you want to hold or not, it's up to you, Sean, because you're in Japan. I'll put you on hold.

If you hang up, you hang up. If we not, we'll talk to you on the other side of the break. Hey, folks, be right back after these messages. If you want to give me a call, eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six.

Be right back.

The Cult Mind and Questions That Expose It

It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. I guess Sean from Japan is gone. That's OK. I've talked to him off and on over the past, I don't know, two or three years. He's a good Christian guy living in Japan, speaks Japanese and his wife is Japanese.

He goes to America or not American, but a Japanese church, Christian church. And there was we had some talk about me going over there, do some little bit of preaching and teaching and things like that.

They'd have translators, of course. I don't speak any Japanese. I've never even been to Japan. I'd like to go. I'd like to go there. I think it'd be great to see it. I've been to I don't know, I don't count how many countries I've been to now.

So just added two more this year, went to Greece and Italy. And they've been saying to people, I talked to some Catholics last night, as I was saying, I told them, I said, look, the Vatican was is incredibly impressive.

It really is. If any of you are just curious, know what's in the Vatican. You just go in there and say pictures of the Vatican museum, art statues, and you just walk down hallway after hallway after hallway of incredible things.

And I was talking to Catholics about this and I was telling them, I said, look, it's hard to to just say how great the art was. Tapestries, the. The tapestries were there, the statues, just the statues were incredible.

I mean, you just can't believe what you're seeing. People carve this out of stone. What? And I don't mean one or two. I mean, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, just magnificent carvings and statues.

And lying down and standing up and it's just incredible stuff. So I was talking to these Catholics about this and I said, yeah, I've got to tell you, I said, we were counting wows per minute. That's how much that's how incredible it was.

We're driving the bus down through Greece. You'd go, wow, once an hour, once, twice an hour. But here it was three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten per per per minute. In the Vatican.

So I tell them about this.

They were very proud about that. And I said, but I got a question. I said, you guys claim that your church has the authority of the apostles, right? Right, right. And they said, yeah, it does. It has the authority of the apostles.

So they they stand in the place of the apostles, right? Yeah. Did the apostles gather to themselves such riches? But that's my question. Did they? Well, they didn't have the opportunity to do that because of I said, yes, they did.

Absolutely.

They did.

They had opportunity for several decades, at least three decades after the death of Christ, as miracles are going forth, people would give them money, they would give them stuff and they would use this money to travel and to go to other places and give to the poor.

I said they had opportunity. So why didn't they? There's no recollection. There's no recounting in the Bible of the apostles gaining fine tapestries, statues, humongous buildings with gold and silver woven in their clothing.

I said, your church is the true church that's from the apostles. How come your true church, which is supposed to be from the apostles, doesn't behave like the apostles? Because what I see is pomp and majesty.

Now, I didn't mention this to him, but years ago, my wife and I went to, oh, what's, oh, I just had it at the tip of my tongue, the Notre Dame in Paris. And there was this extra room we could go into and he paid a couple extra francs and we'd go in this room and I'm glad we did.

The Notre Dame was incredible. I know it's burned. I've been there since then, but I wouldn't mind going back. But it was inside the Notre Dame. It's just magnificent. Now, we went into this other room and I remember being impressed at how incredibly beautiful the silver work was and some of the gold and the tapestries and the gowns, the clothing they would wear that was woven with gold threads.

I guess it was behind glass. You couldn't see, couldn't tell. It was incredible. It was just incredible how much money the Catholic church has gathered to itself. It seems to me that are trusting in money rather than the grace of God.

And they certainly don't trust in the grace of God because in Catholicism, in order to earn your forgiveness of sins, you've got to go to the church and you have to get baptized, you've got to do the sacraments, you've got to take the mass, you've got to do various penance, you've got to do all these things.

When an organization is in control of your soul, your salvation, that's corruption and one corruption leads to another. And so you have millions and billions of dollars of assets. I wonder why I'm going to type this in.

How much money is the Roman Catholic church worth? And by the way, Stephen, thanks for the ten dollar rant there in Rumble. Really appreciate it. Do appreciate it. Thanks a lot, brother. Appreciate that.

I know he had one yesterday and I missed it. So whoever that was, I will check it out. Comment to. OK, the Catholic church's wealth is estimated to be at least seventy three billion dollars. It's difficult to calculate it exactly, but that's the estimation.

The Vatican Bank, which held five point two billion in assets at the end of twenty twenty two. Wow, uses money for a variety of purposes, including charitable causes, maintaining church buildings and art and reflecting values.

The church's economy is volatile and dependent on tourism, gold prices and other factors, for example, during the covid -19 pandemic, the Vatican lost an estimated one hundred million dollars due to seventy five percent drop in ticket sales.

Yeah, when they talk about that, I yeah, so I was with a tour group and because of that, we were able to skip some lines. So you've probably seen the, you know, the Mission Impossible thing where they go to the Vatican and big walls and those walls are there.

And we walked down one street and this line of people, hundreds of feet long. And we were told by the tour company, the leader to just keep walking. And this was the line to get in the Vatican. And so we just kept walking and walking and we got up to a different line because apparently you can get groups of people in and you can arrange this ahead of time, get reservations and that's what was done.

And so the line then was only 10 or 15 minutes to get in. And then once we got in, we had to go through detectors, metal detectors and things like that. You walk into this big area, then you had to walk up some stairs and they take a headset and stuff that only it's from there.

And we were told by the tour guide that when you walk into the Vatican, you're no longer in Italy. It's not Italian soil. It's Vatican soil. It's the smallest country in the world. So they used Leary because that was out of that was out of Greece.

That was out of Turkey, Leary. It was euros. Man, I'm telling you, I'm tired. And so line after line after line and you had to weave your way through people. And they had a humongous escalator to get you up two or three stories.

And it was just packed. They make a lot of money through tourists.

A lot.

The Vatican, Catholic Church. Is it the true church? No, not a false church. Hey, there's a music bottom of the hour. If you want to call me eight, seven, seven, two zero seven, two, two, seven, six.

We'll be right back.

Please give me a call.

Roman Catholic Wealth and Apostolic Authority

It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at eight, seven, seven, two zero seven, two, two, seven, six. Here's Matt Slick.

All right. And welcome back to the show. And, uh, I want to give thanks to miles from nowhere. He did a rant yesterday, uh, on, uh, on rumble. I forgot. I didn't see it. So I, you know, couldn't say anything, but, uh, Hey, thanks.

You know, miles from nowhere, nowhere. I believe he's an atheist too. And he's really a nice atheist too. We have good conversations. Uh, you know, I was, we got a call coming in from Dayton, Ohio here, but I was doing a little bit of research at, uh, the Mormon church it's worth $265 billion.

That's what, uh, one of the estimates is $265 billion. No wonder the Mormon church is trying to make itself look good and make sure it's, uh, it's followers pay money and tithe. So they get the temples because you got to pay money in the Mormon church, pay a full 10 tithe of your income to the church.

So you can go to the temple because otherwise you're not worthy to go to the temple until you pay the money. Yeah, that's bad news. Let's get to Charles from Dayton, Ohio. Charles, welcome here on the air.

Um, I had a question about myself and then, um, I got one about my wife. Um, and I, I guess I should, I probably, I don't know. I'm really concerned about her. I know she, she's, um, she makes a confession of faith and she really, she really seems to, uh, believe and trust in the Lord, but, um, she, uh, she never reads the Bible, uh, on her own, or she just doesn't seem to, um, she, she'll watch TV a lot and she doesn't seem to want to watch, um, any of the, um, you know, ministry programs or anything.

And I don't know, it just, it just bothers me. And I, I, I think she's sweet and I, I, I believe that she's safe, but at the same time, I get really concerned because she, she's been shut in from, uh, going to church since COVID and that's, you know, she's got COPD and that's not her fault, uh, but I, I just, um, I don't know, it bothers me.

Okay.

Well, I have a suggestion for you then. Um, one of the things you don't want to do is to force anything on her. You don't want to do that. So let me ask you, do you pray with her regularly? Do you do that?

Yeah, now she will, uh, she'll let me read the Bible to her and pray with her at last thing at night. Uh, and there's been a few times that she's let me do that. Uh, earlier in the evening, even if, if, if there was, uh, so time was right.

Well, what I would do is, is if I were you, I would, uh, make the suggestion, try and get into the habit. Hold on. Of, um, clearing my throat here, get a stupid head cold cough.

Okay.

What I would try and do with you, with you, what I would try and get you to do with her is to on a nightly basis, make it as regular as you can just pray with pray for her body, her health at night and, you know, put your hand on her shoulder or hold her hand, whatever it is, you know, and you, and you pray.

It's what I do for my wife every night, almost every night. Some nights we're too tired or she goes to bed before me, she's asleep, but you know, we do this on a regular basis. We, we pray probably 95 of the time, uh, each day, each night.

That's one thing you could do. And I recommend you do that. Also, here's something to think about is you might have a daily verse that you, you share with her where you just read something out of the scriptures and you just say, oh, here's this verse.

I think it's good for today. And, uh, it means this, that you don't go long 30 seconds and that's it. You're done. And just see how she reacts to that. If she has any inclination to that, and you could even ask her after a while, you know, you want to pray and you have a verse that, uh, maybe you got one.

I could research and, uh, maybe you can find something that, you know, it might be tough and, and let me know about it and just tell her, you say, you'll, you'll do research on something, provide opportunities.

And of course you pray for her even when you're not with her, but you pray for her that God would open her heart and her mind.

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. That's what she, um, the other one, if you got, if you got time, sure, go ahead. Um, if you have a besetting sound that seems like you, uh, you just can't, you just can't beat it and you keep praying about it and asking people to pray for you and, and just keep asking the Lord to help.

And maybe one day you make a little bit of a progress and 80 of the time or more you don't. And, um, and after, you know, after a few years, what do you do?

What you do is you continually go to the cross. The validity of the sacrifice of Christ is not dependent on your ability to be successfully repentant in sins. The validity of the cross is what Jesus did when he died 2000 years ago.

So you have to understand that Christ will not reject you. If there are sins that you have, uh, struggled with and you fall into, we all have those, all of us.

I do too.

I've got sins. I wish my attitude was better here. I wish this wasn't there, various things. And what you do is you realize that you are a sinner, that you are struggling against sin and against the strength of your flesh.

And you always go back to the cross, no matter what. Don't let yourself not go to the cross after you failed. And even in your hypocrisy, your intention of your heart, all of this, which is evil, you laid all before God.

He already knows your heart and he already saved you from 2000 years ago. He bore your sin in his body and the cross and eternity ago, he chose you for salvation. So you've got to realize that in the here and now of our sins, in the failures that we have, that we have to have the confidence to know that Christ will ever reject us.

And we need to ask God to convict us of our sin so that for his glory, we can resist it and we can have victory over it. And if we never have victory over it, we always need to go to the cross because we always need to rely on what Christ has done.

And in that you glorify God as well, because you're admitting as Paul did in Romans seven, 18 through 25, the things I want to do, I don't do the things I shouldn't do. I do who will deliver me from this body of death.

He was frustrated at the things that he wanted to get rid of and he failed, but he would always say, praise be to God. He is the one in Christ. He's the one who delivers and that's what your attitude has to be.

You have to always go to the cross, even beyond your ability to understand, even beyond your ability to figure out how is it that he could continue to forgive you so many times over the same issues? Because look, he says, wretched man that I am, who will set me free from the body of this death and what that meant in that culture.

But Paul was talking about one of the ways of being executed was a corpse. Human corpse will be tied to you, chained to you in a jail cell and its decay would become yours. Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ, our Lord. So that on the one hand, I, with my mind, I'm serving the law of God with the other my flesh. But he's immediately says, thanks be to God through Jesus Christ, our Lord.

That's where you have to look. So I know that you're, you have a struggle. Continue to fight it because the fighting of that sin glorifies God. If and when you fail, you go to the cross again and you ask him to convict you.

You ask him to strengthen you and you go forward and you repeat the process as long as you're, you're alive until he takes you home. Not that we want to sin, not that I'm saying it's OK to sin, but we have to understand the blood of Christ is greater than you to rely on that, OK?

Yeah, yeah. And what if you what if you really have a fear of being chastened because you keep failing?

Well, welcome to the club. We deserve to be chastened. And the chastening sometimes is an answer to prayer. Sometimes what it takes inside of our hearts is sometimes it takes a discipline of chastening for us to learn.

But you think he would do that to harm you or to improve you? So welcome the chastening if it comes and give glory to him during it if it comes. And in the meantime, you break your heart open to him, confess your sin and confess your bondage to it that you don't want it.

And you always must rely on what Jesus did on that cross, always never turn away from it. OK, brother.

Yeah, yeah, brother, thank you very much.

God bless you. God bless you, man. God bless. All right. Hey, folks, we have wide open lines. If you want to give me a call, the last segment of the hour, eight, seven, seven, two, zero, seven, two, two, seven, six.

Be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at eight, seven, seven, two, zero, seven, two, two, seven, six. Here's Matt Slick.

Perseverance in Sanctification and Going Back to the Cross

All right, everybody. Welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, it's easy to do. Eight, seven, seven, two, zero, seven, two, two, seven, six. You can also email me and that's easy to do as well.

Just direct your email to info at car .org. Info at C .A .R .M. Dot o r g. And in subject line, radio comment, radio question. Either one of those and we get to them. All right. All right. All right. Let's get to Patrick from Charlotte, North Carolina.

Patrick, welcome. You're on the air.

Hello, Matt. Thanks for taking my call.

Welcome. Sure. So what do you got?

Mark three, 13. Is that Jesus choosing the twelve apostles?

No, it's verse 14.

I mean, I'm kind of saying a tongue in cheek here, but it's on the mountain side.

Yeah, because the next verse is when he says he appointed the twelve in verse 13. He went up to the mountain and summoned those who he himself wanted. And they came to him and he appointed twelve so that they would be with him and that he could send them up to pray.

So when he said he summoned the ones he wanted and they came to him, he was choosing the twelve apostles.

That's one logical possibility. Or it could also be that out of the group that he summoned out of them, he chose.

Twelve. OK, my question is, is in John six, thirty seven, all the father gives me will come to me. That's in a similar wording as in Mark three, 13. I believe that in John six, thirty seven, was he then choosing the twelve apostles.

Also? No, it doesn't work. I've heard this before. It doesn't work because it says all that the father gives me will come to me and he who comes to me will certainly not cast out who's the all who come to him.

Well, we know what he's talking about because he says that will the fathers, that everyone who beholds us and believes in him will be saved. That's just three verses later. That's what he's talking about.

Everybody, not just the twelve.

Well, then my question to you is, how did you come to Jesus?

Jesus, Jesus. He described this.

Not Jesus, you. How did you come to Jesus?

Yeah, I went to a church just to check out a little bit about Jesus and friends and invited me. I wasn't all that interested, but I went and then got tricked to walk up forward to receive Christ. I wasn't really interested in that either.