Opinion - Kevin DeYoung Said What!? ....and Some Joel McDurmon

Well, I wanted to start off today and thank the Founders Ministry. They sent me a copy of this book, and I've seen a lot of people sharing it.

I've seen a lot of good things said about it. I have not read it, but I read the title, and it says,

The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant, and His Kingdom. Now, again, I haven't read it, but it sure sounds to me like Baptist propaganda, so thanks a lot for that.

No, in all seriousness, thank you for the book. I do appreciate it. Even if it is Baptist propaganda, that is okay. I do love

Baptists, even if I'm not one. Anyway, I want to talk today about a topic that I find quite interesting, and I saw a short video.

I saw this initially shared by Summer Jaeger from the Sheologians.

Anyway, it's a clip from Reverend Kevin DeYoung, and I really like Kevin DeYoung.

I don't know if you knew that. I think I've said this before on the channel and elsewhere, but I think Kevin DeYoung is awesome.

Now, he writes for the Gospel Coalition, and he's part of the Gospel Coalition. I think he's in leadership.

Yeah, I think he is. If you remember, last week in my Fight Last Feast podcast,

I said a lot of nice things about the Gospel Coalition. So you might think, hey, is AD going soft on the

Gospel Coalition? No, I'm not. I promise I am not. I still think the Gospel Coalition is a very dangerous force, and I shared a few videos that I did a while back about why

I think that is the case, why they're trying to be like the Snopes of the internet, of the Christian world.

They're trying to be the gatekeepers of what's allowable in Christian circles to be discussed, where there's flexibility, where there isn't.

They're trying to be the gatekeepers of that, and they are very untrustworthy in that regard. But let's just be honest.

Not all Gospel Coalition materials are the same. Some Gospel Coalition materials are good. Some Gospel Coalition writers and authors are good, and others not so much.

And so Kevin DeYoung, I would say, is my most favorite Gospel Coalition person. Kevin DeYoung is awesome.

I disagree with Kevin DeYoung on a lot of things. In fact, my first exposure to Kevin DeYoung was an article that he wrote where he really kind of took some side swipes at my view of the law of God.

He would call it theonomy. I would call it just the standard Westminster general equity of the law kind of thing.

And he was kind of dissing that. So my first impression of Kevin DeYoung was not very good.

But over time, he's awesome. He's awesome. And I think he's on the side of truth. I think he's effective.

His style is very different than my style would be if I was in a situation or position like him.

But that's okay. It's cool to have different styles. We need Ezra's. We need Nehemiah's. And Kevin DeYoung is a fantastic example of an

Ezra. Careful, irenic, thoughtful, good theology, a student of the

Word of God. That is, I mean, if ever I could see an Ezra that I would look up to, it would be a guy like Kevin DeYoung.

Also, he looks a lot like Jerry Seinfeld, which is also a good thing, I think.

You look kind of like an older, more serious Jerry Seinfeld, but he looks like Jerry Seinfeld. Anyway, so I saw this video clip share.

It's only a minute. We're going to listen to the whole thing. And I saw people describe this in a variety of negative ways, which

I found very interesting. I saw people describe it as unfortunate wording, dangerous.

I've seen people describe this as a false gospel. I've seen people describe this as a lot of different negative things.

And when I listened to it, I was expecting to hear something shocking, but I didn't.

Let's listen to it. Here's what I have to say. Here's Jerry Seinfeld at the T4G conference. Without holiness, without some evidence of grace having flown into you, of God's love transforming you, without that union with Christ whereby we receive the double gift,

Calvin calls it, of justification and sanctification, we ought not have confidence that we are on our way to glorification.

So, how would you answer the question, are good works necessary for salvation?

I would argue, as Reformed theologians have, they are necessary for salvation, not according to the necessity of merit.

Good works are required as the means, not as the grounds. As John Piper has said many times, as the fruit, not as the root.

Not as the cause of new life, but as the necessary effect that life has been wrought in us.

So, I listened to that, and, you know, I asked a few people.

I sent it to my wife. I sent it to my brother. I sent it to a few other people, and I asked them, is there anything controversial about this?

And, you know, with the exception of maybe the kind of clickbaity wording of the way this is described up here, you know, the little quote that they pull out of it,

I understand that. That's pretty clickbaity, that's fine. The words of the video are completely non -controversial.

I don't understand how this is controversial. So, he's saying, are good works necessary for salvation?

Right here, let's just go back there and listen to it, because this is important here. Reformed theologians have, they are necessary for salvation.

Okay, they are necessary for salvation. Don't stop there, keep listening.

Not according to the necessity of merit, good works are required as the means, not as the grounds.

So, yes, not as the ground, not as far as merit. So, your good works don't earn you your salvation.

He's very clear about this, okay? So, this is the dividing line. Your good works do not earn you your salvation.

You don't get merit for those. The only reason that you're saved is because of Christ's merit, not the merit of your good works.

But, as John Piper has said many times, as the fruit, not as the root.

The fruit, not as the root. Not as the cause of new life, but as the necessary effect that life has been wrought in us.

Right. So, this is, excuse me for the phone call there. This is, how is this controversial?

Not as the root, but as the fruit. Not as the cause, but as the necessary effect.

Like, this is not controversial at all. Because here's the thing, like, guys, like, I understand, like, we have these kind of pithy, you know, slogans, you could call them.

You know, faith alone, faith apart from works. This comes from the Bible, right? So, we need to understand that those are true.

Faith apart from works, that's Paul who wrote that, right? And so, we can say, you know, we're saved by grace alone, through faith alone.

Okay, great. That's all nice, because it gives us a really easy way to understand sort of basic theology, you know, foundational theology.

But you have to remember, when you say this kind of stuff, and you teach people this kind of stuff, they're going to go and take this to their friends.

They're going to go and take this to their Roman Catholic friends, right? And what's the Roman Catholic friend going to say? Because if you've ever talked to a

Roman Catholic about this, here's the kind of stuff that they say. Did you know that the only place in the

Bible that says the words faith alone in it is where it says not by faith alone?

And you know what? They're right. They're right. Here's James chapter two, okay?

So, this is also Bible. So, we know that Paul teaches that you're justified by faith apart from works, okay?

So, we understand that, but we have to hold that together with what James says here, ready? Someone will say, this is

James chapter two, starting at verse 18, but someone will say, you have faith and I have works.

Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one, you do well.

Even the demons believe in shudder. Do you want to be shown, oh foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?

Okay, so we need to hold this together, right? Remember what Paul said in his writings, now we've got what

James says in his writings. James is saying, do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?

We gotta hold this together, guys. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son

Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works, and the scripture was fulfilled that says

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness, and he was called a friend of God.

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

And in the same way, was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also is faith apart from works is dead.

So we need to hold this together, right guys? We need to hold this together. And I think that the reformed faith, just like Kevin DeYoung said, it's been very careful about this, and the great reformers,

Calvin, all these guys, they've understood this, and they've explained this, and it's very helpful when you look at the reformed answer to this question.

It's very helpful. It's not the root, it's the fruit. That's very pithy and nice to understand, and it makes perfect sense because it's not the root.

Because here's the thing, here's the response that people say to Kevin DeYoung. Well, Kevin DeYoung, works are, you're saying works are necessary for salvation as the fruit?

It's necessary to have fruit? Kevin DeYoung's like, yeah, I say that, just like all the reformers say that. Just like all the reformers say that.

And the response to him is, well, what about the thief on the cross? And okay, listen, if you say that,

I'm not saying you're stupid, I'm not saying that, but okay, let's think about that objection for a second, and think about it this way.

Could not have someone said this to James? So James is here saying, Abraham believed

God and it was counted to him as righteousness. So you see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So when James says that, couldn't you not have said, well, James, what about the thief on the cross? He didn't have works.

Now I think that's debatable, first of all, but second of all, why could not you have not said that to James when he said this?

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. Why couldn't you have said, hey,

James, what about the thief on the cross? You could have said that. It has the same merit against James that it would against Kevin DeYoung, what he said.

I'm not saying Kevin DeYoung is writing scripture, please don't at me with that. But this is the thing, guys, like what

James is saying, what Kevin DeYoung is saying, that ordinarily, okay, let's exclude the thief on the cross for just a second, because we have to understand the thing, guys.

God is not bound by these certain means, right? God is not bound by these certain means.

He can save someone in the womb and there's no works there, right? He can save someone on the cross right when he's about to die, say, you're gonna be with me in paradise, all that kind of stuff.

He can do that. God is not bound by means. He can change someone's heart before you even know who they are, right?

He can do that. He can give them real saving faith before they can even speak. God can do that.

He's not bound by means, right? So we understand that. We can use him as an exception, but what

James is teaching, what Paul is teaching, I'm sorry, what Kevin DeYoung is teaching, and Paul would have taught the same thing, by the way, is that faith that there's no evidence of, what good is it?

What good is it? How do we know that it's faith, in other words? Because you can say you have faith, but if you don't do anything that demonstrates this faith, how are we supposed to know that that's real?

Could it be real? Yeah, it could be the thief on the cross. It could be the thief on the cross. It could be the deathbed confession.

Yes, it could be all that stuff. We're not denying that, but what Kevin DeYoung is saying, and I think this is very uncontroversial, you have no right to any kind of assurance if you say you have faith, but you do not have works.

Because what James says, and I think this is very clear in the teaching of the Bible, that faith apart from works is a dead faith.

It's a useless faith. It's actually no faith at all. See, here's a way that I've chosen to describe this in the past, and I think

I heard this. Man, who did I hear this from? It might have been Matt Slick. I don't know. It's one of these guys, right?

Because I think this is very helpful, right? So let's just say we've got two people that are scared of flying on a plane, right?

They're scared of flight, and I understand because you're in an aluminum tube, and you're going through the air hundreds of miles an hour, miles up in the air.

That's scary, right? That's scary, and you get two people. You explain to them how the plane works. You explain to them how safe it is, and they both say, you know what?

I'm still scared, but I trust that this plane will land. I trust that planes work.

I trust that I'll be safe if I get on this plane. They both say it, okay? And then you say, okay, great.

Let's go fly to LA, and one of the people gets on the plane, gets in his seat, buckles up, and he's ready to go.

The other person says, I'm not getting on that plane. I'm not getting on that plane. So, you know, in the example, one of the people who says they have they have faith in the plane, they trust the plane to do what it's supposed to do.

They trust it. One of them has the works of actually getting on the plane, and getting in a seat, and getting ready to go, and the other one says they trust it, but they're not getting on.

Which one actually trusts it? Could that person who refuses to get on actually have real faith in the plane, but for some reason they can't get on?

I suppose. I suppose. I suppose. But the other one is demonstrating that his faith is real, is demonstrating that it's not dead faith, because his faith is actually active.

There's good works that, you know, quote -unquote good works that accompany it. So if you were to ask, okay, do these people have faith in this plane?

They both say they do. Which one does, or do they both? I think a reasonable explanation is, well, this one, the one who got on the plane, has the faith.

Could you be wrong? Could the other one have faith too? Yeah, I suppose so. I suppose so. But what right do we have to say that?

If they're not acting like it, what right do we have? Jesus Christ himself said, if you love me, what?

If you love me, you'll say that you love me? No, he didn't say that. If you love me, that you'll have the warm feeling in your stomach, you'll get that euphoria when you're worshiping.

If you love me, that's what it'll be. No, he says, if you love me, you will keep my commandments. What about the thief on the cross,

Jesus? What about the thief on the cross? See, I just don't get it. I really just don't get it.

Because at the end of the day, like we have to separate law and gospel. We have to understand those distinctly, because that's important, right?

Gospel and law, they're different, and we need to teach them as different, but they're both necessary.

Because when we preach that gospel, right? We preach that gospel, the gospel of Jesus Christ dying on the cross for the sins of his people, the free gift of grace and all that, and then somebody converts, right?

Somebody converts. Praise God. I mean, it's a literal miracle. Somebody converts when you give them that gospel.

And then they say, okay, now what? What do I do now? What do

I do now? What's your answer? What's your answer?

Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. What kind of fruit? You see, this is where the good works come into play, because God has prepared good works for us to walk in beforehand.

He's prepared good works for us to walk in. And the reality is that if we say we have faith, but we have no works, can that faith save us?

It's a rhetorical question, but the answer is no. No. Remember, God is not bound by means, okay?

So we understand that. But at the same time with James, with Kevin DeYoung, I will say, if you have faith, but no works, can that faith save you?

Well, even the demons believe and shudder. Faith by itself, if it does not have works,

James says, is dead. And that faith cannot save you.

And so Kevin DeYoung said nothing wrong. Kevin DeYoung said nothing wrong. Look, Kevin DeYoung has been wrong before.

I can take you through some of the things that he said in the past that don't make sense, okay? That don't make sense.

I can take you where he's inconsistent and things like that. Everyone can do that with anybody, right? Kevin DeYoung is awesome.

Let's just get that straight. He's awesome. And he's right here. He's right here.

Before we finish today, I want to take you through a video that I saw. Man, I must've seen this.

It says here on YouTube that it came out in January of 2013. I must've seen it right after it came out.

This video, man, I'll never forget how I felt after it. Let's just watch it real quick. This is from the

American Vision, and it's Joel McDermott. And this is an excellent video.

I could quibble with some aspects of it, but this is good. Let's listen to it. The gospel is the good news of the coming of the kingdom of Jesus Christ.

That's what he preached. Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand. So the question with the gospel is, what is the kingdom of God?

We've too often narrowed it down to the preaching of the salvation of the soul so people can go to heaven.

And then after that, all Christian preaching and the maintenance of that one narrow subject or narrow object is your spiritual life and things like that.

And all of that is of the utmost importance. But the kingdom of God is much bigger than just the spiritual issues and going to heaven.

It is like it was from the beginning. God created man in his image and in his likeness, and he gave him dominion over the rest of the creatures.

And he commanded him to subdue the earth, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it.

We know that Adam lost that dominion in the fall, but it never really left the fact that that is stamped on the image of God within us.

When Christ comes, he's preaching the message of the coming of the kingdom. He's preaching the restoration of all of that.

It's not just saving your soul so you can go to heaven. It's saving you and redeeming you, restoring you to an obedient servant of God in the kingdom of God that applies his word to every area of life.

And that means all the subjects that are allegedly taboo to Christians, education, politics, economics, business, things that we're told that the gospel really doesn't apply to these things.

Well, obviously, of course it applies to. It's the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God applies to everything. That's what we do here is we take that, if you want to call it a full gospel message, and preach the whole gospel.

What does it mean to be a faithful servant of God in relation to the commandment, thou shalt not steal?

I mean, if we love God and we don't want to steal, what does that mean in regard to what we consider money, what we consider honest business, what we consider good business, customer service?

All these things apply to that. If you want to really generalize it, it's all applications of the command to love your neighbor as yourself.

It's a great video because it kind of hits on what I've been talking about here. Because look, the gospel and the law are different, right?

So I could quibble with calling the teaching of the law also the gospel, whatever, fine.

But the thing is, it's the gospel of the kingdom of God, right? And what is the kingdom of God?

I actually would probably have a slightly different view of the kingdom of God than Kevin DeYoung would have. But at the end of the day, it's a real kingdom.

And what does a real kingdom have? A real kingdom has a king. We have a king. And a real king rules his kingdom with justice.

And there's law. And there's law here too. We have that. We have a moral law from our God. We have a moral law that applies to every area of our life that we have to unpack.

We have to live out. We have to do good works. You see, this is the thing. Like, are good works necessary for a

Christian? Yeah, they are. Yes, they are. Are good works necessary for salvation?

I mean, again, I have to stand with James and what Kevin DeYoung said. Because if you say you have faith but don't have works, can that faith save you?

Look, I'm not talking about, you know, measuring your fruit against somebody else's fruit. And if it weighs out perfectly, then you have enough faith.

No, that's not what this is all about. Because a faith with a minuscule amount of works, a real faith saves you, right?

So that's not what it's all about. But the thing is, though, if you're not even concerned with good works, and you say you have faith, and you're not practicing good works, and you're not seeking to apply that law of God in your life to bear more fruit, to bear more fruit, and what are those fruits?

Those are good works, right? If you're not even concerned with that, you should be worried. You should be worried that maybe you're being duped by a false faith.

Because even the demons believe and shudder, right? Even the demons believe and shudder.

And so, just like James says, as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Kevin DeYoung said nothing wrong. You call this federal vision? You call this a heretical gospel and stuff like that?

I don't get it. I don't get it. I'm not saying you're an unbeliever if you say that Kevin DeYoung is preaching heresy here.

That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is, we have to have answers for these things.

We have to be able to incorporate James into our beliefs, right? We have to. And if we can't figure out how to do that in a way that doesn't make

James susceptible to the same critique you gave to Kevin DeYoung, what about the thief on the cross? We've got a problem.