White vs. Shah Closers and Conclusion

As you have noticed that we have got so many commonalities, we believe in one

God, we believe in the prophethood, we believe in the scriptures, we are the people of all of us,

Jews, Christians, Muslims. There are so many distinctions, and as you have seen us tonight, that both of us, we are, he is a staunch

Christian, I am a staunch Muslim, we can sit down, we can talk, and we can argue, but with a sense of understanding and mutual respect.

I want to show this one, this message should go to the whole world, that you could be a Christian, you could be a

Jew, you could be a Muslim, but you are still a human being, we share the universal brotherhood in Adam, we have got the scriptures, we will disagree, we can go back to those scriptures, and we can talk like human beings, there is no need for us to worry about this clash of civilization, and especially, and I want to talk about this specific issue, that Islam shares with humanity what we call the universal brotherhood.

With Judaism and Christianity, Islam shares the Ibrahim connection, and with Judaism, Moses connection, and with Christianity, Jesus connection.

No other religion on this face of the earth would give that much respect to Jesus, would believe in his virgin birth, would believe in his, what, you know, the miraculous nature of his mission, or even believe the second coming of Jesus, except the religion of Islam.

In spite of the fact that Judaism and Christianity share the Old Testament, or the Hebrew Bible, but all of us, we know that in Judaism, there is no concept of the

Messiah in Jesus, or say, for example, believe in his second coming, or in his miracle.

So Islam and Christianity, they are the closest religion, and honestly, they have shared this

Jesus connection for a long time, we need to explore it, number one. Number two, the issue is that, yes, we do differ,

I mean, when it comes to the divinity issue, we do differ, but you can look into it that there's some kind of logic into it.

When the Muslims, they say that for us, Quran is the word of God, they look into its history, they look into the providence, they look that for 14 centuries, it has remained intact.

All over the world, it is one Quran. The original Arabic text, as it was recited at the time of Muhammad, is available to us.

So we apply the same thing to the other religions. So when we look at Torah, or when we look at the

Indian Gospels, and we see these variants, and historical problems, we ask this issue, what does it contain?

And the answer is that it does contain the true message which was given to Moses and Jesus. But over the period of history, it has been what, you know, somehow, human hands have added something to it.

So what Muslims are saying, that we go back to the original message of Moses, believe in one

God, do not kill, do not cheat. Basically, believe in one God, love

God. And remember, the Genesis tells us that Moses was

Mishlam. Mishlam in Hebrew language is Muslim. Muslim means, because peace, the word is from Islam.

Islam is from Salaam. That's where we Muslims, when we want to say to somebody, peace be unto you, say

Salaam Alaikum. The Jews, they say Shalom. So the difference is Shalom and Salaam.

So basically, what we say is that Prophet Abraham was a man of peace, Moses was a man of peace,

Jesus was a man of peace, Muhammad was a man of peace. And I want to see the Muslims also people of peace.

The reason is that if we share that sense of peace, I think we can talk to each other as brothers and sisters, as cousins, respect each other, love each other, and at the same time, argue with each other as the family members, not as somebody from the

Mars or somebody from the Venus. We all of us, we belong to the same planet.

We share the same planet. Jesus was in Jerusalem, Moses was born in Egypt and then he died closer to Sinai, say for example, for Jerusalem.

Muhammad was not from the east, he was from the other side of the Red Sea. So basically, none of them are eastern or western.

All of them, they came from the same spot. At the same time, when it comes to the issue of divinity of Jesus, peace be upon him,

I request my Christian brothers to understand the Muslim point of view. We love

Jesus, but the question is, we ask some logical questions that the person who lived in the womb of the mother for nine months, who had all of these human needs, who was killed by the

Romans. Basically, if he was the God at the same time, then we have to have a lot more logical inferences in the

Bible as well as in human logic to prove that yes, he was. So the question is, if God can be killed, then who is going to be calling upon when somebody needs the help from him?

At the same time, if God is to forgive the sin, why he has to kill himself or his own son when he can forgive the sin without anybody forcing him?

If God is the God of love, why he will persecute or basically punish people for five thousand, six thousand years and put them in the hellfire if he had to send his own son or if he has to come himself for the salvation of human beings?

Why didn't he do it from the beginning? And at the same time, if God does something big to kill himself, it should make some difference in the existence.

At least Christians should be so pious because they accept Jesus, but we know that there are bad apples among Christians, as there are bad apples among Jews, there are bad apples among Muslims.

So they make mistakes, sins, everybody else makes mistakes and sins. So there should be some difference which should be made by the crucifixion of Jesus peace be upon him.

But anyhow, as we have talked about, the entire issue is the issue of God's revelation and the entire issue is,

I'm not sure whether you are keeping the time? My voice is not working. The entire issue is applying the same kind of rules upon Christian understanding of God and revelation and giving the same kind of respect to the

Muslim tradition. As I just mentioned to you that with all of this textual integrity, historicity, the textual purification and Islam focusing upon one

God, monotheistic basically understanding of God, very very logical understanding of God concept.

Focusing upon do not kill, do not cheat and focusing more upon the human actions, preparing people through the fasting, preparing people through almsgiving, preparing people to basically love their neighbors.

I would like the Christians and Jewish brothers to have a look at Islam from that perspective that if New Testament can contain the truth in spite of the fact with all of these difficulties, in spite of the fact that somehow we seem to be having a lot of conflict between the church fathers and different type of church leaders, in spite of the fact that there are so many controversies between these kind of, say for example, church teaching.

In spite of the fact that some of those things are really very difficult, they would call it basically mysteries and we

Muslims look at it that they are contradictions. So we would like them to look at it from the perspective that look at the

Quran, if they find the same kind of contradictions, then they can say at least, say for example, it is equal to the

Old Testament or the New Testament. If they do not find even that contradiction, they should give the

Quran some credit and respect it as the scriptures which they can study and maybe they can benefit from it.

Thank you very much. First of all, let me thank all of you for being here this evening.

I am very, very appreciative for all those who have worked so diligently to make this a possibility for us this evening.

I hope you will thank especially the campus groups that were involved in the work that they did, Pastor Stan Geyer and those who have made it possible for all of us to be here this evening.

I just want on a factual level to point out that we actually have 12 manuscripts within the first 100 years of the

New Testament, which no other work of antiquity can boast. We have four Gospels, nine letters of Paul, Acts, Hebrews, and Revelation, pointing out the majority of the

New Testament is in fact found in that form. And the important thing to point out is this is not, these are not manuscripts that are under the control of any one individual.

These come from all over the world. And that demonstrates that the idea of a change in editing in those texts, the person making that allegation needs to come up with some pretty heavy explanation.

It's interesting to me that one of the first books that we find testified in the manuscript tradition is the Gospel of John. And the

Gospel of John tells us that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was

God. As far back as you want to push the beginning, the Logos exists. The Word is as to his nature deity.

And then John 1 14 says, the Word became flesh. And that really is the fundamental difference between us.

Yes, we have all sorts of other differences as to how we view inspiration and things like that. But fundamentally, the difference between us is belief that God has the ability to enter into his own creation for his own purposes.

Dr. Shaw was just saying why we just don't understand why it's necessary God can just forgive sins. Well, the Torah actually makes it very clear that God forgives sins on the basis of sacrifice.

That God has wrath against sin, and that his justice must be fulfilled. If God simply winks at sin, then his justice is trampled underfoot.

The Christian message is that there will be no injustice in the final day, that every person will be treated justly.

Either sin will be punished in the person who bears that sin, or that sin will be punished in a substitute who has borne that sin perfectly in their place.

And we believe that that perfect substitute is in fact Jesus Christ. And that is why he had to be the

God man. It wasn't that the Romans killed Jesus. It wasn't the Romans killed God. The message in the

New Testament is that Jesus Christ laid down his own life. He did it voluntarily.

He voluntarily entered into human flesh. He voluntarily laid down his life. And as a result, he is now exalted to the right hand of the

Father. Indeed, this day, this very hour is a precious truth Christians hold on to appears in the presence of God the

Father for us as our intercessor. That is the sole basis upon which we have peace with God. And that is the message that Christians have been proclaiming and continue to proclaim.

And we want to, we want our Muslim friends to understand that we understand that there is one

Ayah. But I want you as a Muslim to understand, can you understand from my perspective, how 40

Arabic words written 600 years after the event without any historical connection to the life and ministry of Jesus Christ seems a very thin basis upon which

I am to reject the united testimony of the entirety of all the New Testament writers. Anything that comes from the first hundred years after the time of Jesus says the same thing, that Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary.

And so why, upon what basis can you understand why I have to go, why should I accept 40

Arabic words, not even interpreted by their author, no, no authentic Hadith narration as to what their meaning is for 200 years later as a basis for rejecting everything that I find in the

New Testament. That is what is being asked of me if I am to, as the

Quran says, avoid excess in religion. And I find that a rather difficult thing to do.

And so I once again come back to the fact that we need to continue this dialogue. I hope that tonight will be the first of many opportunities.

Dr. Shah has indicated an interest in doing that across the United States and who knows, maybe you want to go to England, go back to England sometime?

Want to drive on the wrong side of the road for a while? It's lots of fun. I would like to see this dialogue continue because it is vitally important.

It is important for Christians and Muslims to understand each other. I think, I hope if you're Christian here this evening, you have been challenged to know better what you believe.

I hope as a Muslim, you have been challenged to know better what you believe because it is as we talk honestly that we can demonstrate and honor for truth.

Obviously, from the Christian perspective, we believe that the central issue that we must discuss with our

Muslim friends, aside from how do we know what Jesus said and things like that, we need to be consistent.

I mean, I think as a Christian, I have a right to go, you know, words of Jesus separated 600 years from his life without any historical evidence that these were continued from the time of Jesus.

Are we really being consistent to question the early witnesses of the Gospels when we accept something like that?

Try to see that from the Christian perspective. I think it would be helpful to you. But we need to focus upon who

Jesus is. Some Muslims, I think, think that we're just way too focused upon this

Jesus. But once you realize what we really believe about him, once you realize that as the

Apostle Paul described it in a very early letter written within just two decades of the death of Jesus, he wrote to the

Church of Colossians. Speaking of Jesus Christ, he said, for by him were all things made, whether in heaven or on earth, visible or invisible, whether principalities, powers, or dominions, or authorities, all things are created by him and for him, and he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

And my friend, that means he's the creator. And that means every heartbeat that you take, every breath that you breathe comes from his hand.

You cannot be neutral about that kind of claim. I confess to you that he is my creator, that everything

I have I owe to him, and that I bow my knee to him.

I do not engage in shirk in so doing because I am a strict monotheist. He has eternally been

God. I'm ascribing no partners to Allah. If you understand the doctrine of the Trinity, you know that we do not ascribe partners to Allah.

But the point is that I do believe that it is only in a relationship with him that I can have peace with God.

And the peace that I have with God is not based upon how many times I've prayed. It's not based upon any of the righteous deeds that I may do.

I do righteous deeds to glorify him, but my relationship with God is because I have the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

That's why I have true shalom, peace with him, as Romans 5 -1 says. And so the

Christian message is, if you want to have peace with God, he has provided the way. But that way is only in Jesus Christ.

And that's why we proclaim him to others and because of our love for the Muslim people, we proclaim him to them as well.

We engage in dialogue. We do so because we desire to glorify him. Thank you very much for being here this evening.

Thank you Dr. White and Dr. Shaw. I'd like to have our students come up and kind of dismiss us and thank them again for what they did to pull this together.

We'd like to thank you again for coming and I'd like to reiterate this is the beginning of a conversation and you may want to ask, you know, how can we begin this conversation, continue it here in Durham and at Duke.

I have a few suggestions. First of all, if you haven't met people in this room of a different faith,

I encourage you to exchange emails, telephone numbers and continue this conversation over coffee, over a meal.

Another way that you can continue the conversation is to come visit one of the organizations that has sponsored this event and we have weekly meetings.

If you'd like that information, there is a sheet on each table, there should be, where you can leave your email and we can email you the times of our events.

Also, we hope to sponsor other events along the similar themes and if you leave your email on those sheets, we can contact you accordingly.

I would like to all of you please to give thanks to Rich and the folks who put this all together.

It takes a lot of work to do something like this and I would also like to give a copy of this excellent work to Rich for his work as well.