Tape 5 - Counseling Seminar

Park Meadows Church

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Amazing, you see these men, same here, many of them Christians, they go down and little secretaries, you know how she comes through, they'll break their necks to open that door, you follow me?

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Secretaries never open the door for themselves when they have a building. These guys say, let me get that for you, boy they open it up, you see their wife, their wife, they'll go in the door and door hit their wife, knock their wife back out in the parking lot.

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But little girl, boy you don't hold that chair, let me get that chair for you. Wife go down there and she'll look at somebody, she'll stand there forever waiting on somebody to hold her chair.

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Open the car door, why? Open the car door for a wife, why that's absurd, you got to get in that car, you got to go, it's a matter of courtesy, why not, why would

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I not want to do more for my wife than I would anyone else? Same thing about finances, it's amazing how many guys go out and have coffee and everybody's sitting there and somebody has a little breakfast sandwich and he'll say, let me get that,

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I got it, let me get it, and he'll get it. The wife says, sweetheart, do you think we might take the kids down to McDonald's and just get a coke and maybe buy more french fries, what do you think

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I'm made out of, money? Do you think money grows on trees? We don't have that kind of money, but he can treat the guys, he can go to Civitan Rotary Lions Club, pay his dues there, growl like a tiger, growl man, sitting in there all this stuff, like some kind of an animal.

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And he'll spend all that money, and it's amazing how much money a man has to do with his buddies and his friends, but he doesn't have enough to do with his children and his wife.

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It's interesting, even though none of us may have a great sum of funds available to us, but many men in their marriages hold back from their families and treat their families less than they treat people in the community.

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And that is part of the problem. And then, the wife said, he shifts all the blame on me for all the family errors.

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One of the things that is so difficult to get men to do is to recognize that they're not perfect. And to get a man to say, not

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I'm sorry, I'm sorry is a bad word, I'm sorry means you got caught doing something, but to say, will you forgive me,

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I'm wrong. Son, your dad is wrong. Will you forgive me?

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Most teenage boys never hear a dad say that. Most teenage girls never hear a dad or mom say, forgive me,

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I was wrong. Why do we feel we have to always be right? It would be nice, but we are not.

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And they know we're not, and it will encourage them if they know we know we are not always right.

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Then, I mentioned in here just a few moments ago about love.

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Let me just touch for a brief moment on some, and I'll not get into it too much, but I think it needs to be amplified upon or clarified somewhat.

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And that is, if you deal with someone who is having sexual difficulties in their marriage, you have to be extremely careful of number one is what you hear.

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Number two is what you want to listen to. And number three is whether or not you can help them even if you listen to it.

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There are some things you don't even want to listen to. And then of course the setting in which you are listening to that.

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But you and I must understand that many of the problems that people have sexually in the young marriages today, one of their biggest problems is in this area.

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And it can be solved, of course, most of the time through premarital counseling with a good solid pastor, or a good solid minister of youth, or a good solid minister of music, or a good solid deacon, or someone who is competent and able and knows how to counsel with these people about different areas.

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Instead of talking about compatibility, talk about sex with them. Talk about money with them. Talk about budgets with them.

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Talk about their relationships. Instead of talking about, well now you need to have a godly home. They'll understand that readily. Talk about those things.

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Show them how to set up a family devotion. Show them how to do these things, but cover the different areas that are going to be critical to them.

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And we just don't do that sometimes. But many of the sex problems that people have, and I'll just use those two words, sex problems, instead of sexual difficulties.

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It takes longer to say sexual difficulties for me. They grow out of the fact, simply, that sex is a very vital force.

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And I don't understand sometimes when Christian people, we are reticent to speak about that subject, which is such a vital force in humanity.

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And in our churches, we are reticent to speak about it. We feel like it's taboo. We shouldn't discuss it somewhere.

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But I believe the only place that you can get good solid answer is from the word of God. And the

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Bible and anything that else is taught has to conform to biblical principles. And I believe a pastor who has trained himself is as competent, and if not more so, than anyone else to speak upon that subject to the community, and that can be done in the context of the church.

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But we want to get this information, of course, from other places. And you and I know that that is not true. It's a vital force in life.

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Another source of these problems is that because sex has such an integrative nature, it is so integrated in life itself, it's so integrated in everything that you do, and it's integrated in personalities, and it can overshadow, it can undercut, it can undermine, it can do so many things within the personality without even realizing it.

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And then another problem is that today in our world, so many illegitimate children.

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In the United States, two out of every ten children that are born is an illegitimate child. Two out of every ten is an illegitimate child.

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And most of the time, the discovery has been that when a young lady has an illegitimate child, that person will usually be caught up for some years, if not for the rest of their life, in illicit relationships.

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Because of fear, because of shame, because of embarrassment, many things, they will be caught up and they'll just go live with someone.

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They'll just go live with them without getting counseling, without getting married, and etc. And then

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I might just say this about illegitimate children. We have found, and we'll talk about it perhaps, but in case I don't speak on it because I don't know if it's in there or not, concerning spiritual warfare, we usually find that adopted children are special targets of attack by the enemy.

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And for the simple reason is, is because a parent somewhere down the line, their real parent says, I don't want them.

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And anytime a parent says, I don't want that child, Satan says, I do. I do.

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And he begins to set up a work in that life. And we have found so many adopted children who have had such serious problems in their life because of the enemy setting up a foundation.

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And again, we kind of misconceive that just because we're Christians that we are immune to the assaults and the attacks of the enemy, of course, which is not true.

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And so this is what happens with illegitimacy. And then, of course, problems in this area derive or result from a great variation in sex drives.

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In counseling someone who has a sexual difficulty, never use yourself as the standard.

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Never use yourself as a standard. Don't use any other person as a standard. Talk to them about their life, their needs, their drives.

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Speak to them because every person is unique. Every person is an individual. There are certain general principles you may speak with and you may concern yourself about.

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But the drives are different. And a husband and wife will have different drives. And they need to discuss this.

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And so sex problems or problems with these difficulties will arrive simply because of a lack of wholesome sex education.

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If you have teenagers, let me just bring it right down. How many parents do you know who have sat down with their young people and say, as a husband and a wife, why do we think the dad ought to go talk to the son and the wife ought to talk to the daughter and neither should talk to the other?

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Maybe the boy's got some questions he wants to ask mom. Maybe the daughter has some. Why not the dad talk to the son?

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Why not the mother talk to the daughter? And then why not mom and dad talk to the son? And why not mom and dad talk to the other?

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There are young people, I promise you, they're discussing it elsewhere or they're hearing it discussed or they're seeing it discussed.

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And that way you bring mom and dad because a mother has things that she can contribute to a young man's mind and thinking from a female perspective that he can't get from the dad.

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Because the dad is basically aggressive and the woman biologically is not made to be aggressive in the true sense of the word as the man is.

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And she comes from one perspective, he comes from another perspective. And so consequently they need a balanced approach.

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But you and I both know that the facts are that most parents, including Christian parents, never discuss sexual difficulties, sexual problems, problems dealing with the interrelationships, intercourse, or any of those things with their young people.

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Other than the fact of saying, well, we have a couple that was in New Mexico. He was a doctor, another profession.

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And she came and he came and her parents had taught her in such a way that she was not responsive in anything to her.

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It was just a duty, it was just something she wanted to do and get rid of it and get it over with. And it was devastating marriage and yet both of them were members of the church, faithful to the

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Lord, visiting, having fellowships, doing it all. But their homes was totally destroyed and their relationship was almost nothing.

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Because of something her parents had told her and he'd had none. He'd had none. And the tragedy is that this is true even in Christian homes.

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And then also faulty childhood impressions and unwise handling by parents have profound effects and sometimes later on cause tremendous sexual difficulties in the life of a young person.

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Because, well, you see, back in the old days there were horses. Back in the old days there were skirts connected to the ankles. Back in the old days there were shoes that were parallel to the knees almost.

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In the old days there were bonnets. In the east there were veils. And as a result, you see, you don't see things that are foreign. But it isn't that way today.

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And it's a new world in which you and I live. And if we don't deal with these young people about these problems, they're going to be devastating in their personal life and in their own.

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Well, we're going to just entrust them to the Lord. Yes. Certainly we entrust them to the Lord. But we must teach them.

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They are your responsibility. They are the responsibility of the church. They are the responsibility of the parent.

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Teaching them things of life. That's why God gave them. God loaned them to you or to an adult.

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He loaned them to be trained and to be taught how to live for him. And then soon they'll go off on their own way and they'll live their own life.

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Also, we talked to someone about sexual problems and physical problems. Sometimes there are physical causes that bring a significant difficulty into the sexual area.

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And it causes maladjustments in life. And so we have to quickly try to recognize that and get them to a medical doctor.

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So that they can be cared for. And then, of course, society itself, secular society, creates or aggravates the problems in the sexual area.

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The mores of society, the values of society. What they see on television. What they read in the magazines. And what they hear on the streets.

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What they discuss on the school bus. What they discuss when they're riding around. What they discuss when they're at the beach.

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The information that is given to them. And all this has an effect on it. And because of society.

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Because there is a problem that is quite prevalent. And that is the problem of homosexuality. Homosexuals can be dealt with and successfully be brought to Christ.

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They can successfully become useful Christians. They are rare. I'll tell you that it's been my experience that it's very rare that homosexuals even look for change.

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Most of them are not looking for change. They don't want to change. They don't desire change. And occasionally you'll find one that turns to Christ.

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And their lives are changed. But let me give you seven causes of homosexuality.

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You say, you mean... No, it's sin. It is sin. It's an abomination to God.

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But there are causes for it. One of them is a very dominant mother.

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In a home that has a mother that is dominant. And there's so many homes, even Christian homes that I'm in.

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That I observe and that I see. The wife, for many reasons, has become the dominant personality.

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And because of her being dominant. And we'll cover that somewhat in a little bit.

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In another section. Because of her dominance. Then that boy sees that dominating mother figure.

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And it causes him difficulty. And he or she, even the girl, can become... And coupled with that, of course, is a weak father.

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A dominant mother. And of course, if there's a dominant mother, there's a weak father. A weak father.

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And those can be causes of homosexuality. Because they become the role standard.

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They become the role idol. They become that role standard for that boy or for that girl.

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It is unbelievable how many young people today are involved in homosexuality as aggressive homosexuals.

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Not passive. Not where they're just living with what you and I would call an aggressive homosexual person.

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No, that they themselves are active, aggressive homosexuals. Young people. And by young people,

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I'm talking about anywhere from 14 to 19 or 20 years of age. That they are aggressive in this movement.

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And then also an overindulgent mother. The doting mother, yes. Well, I just can't do too much for my son.

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I can't do too much for my daughter. And that is true. But an overindulgent mother. Permitting everything.

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Giving everything. Allowing everything. And then, of course, the opposite would be a cruel father. A cruel father has turned many a young man to homosexuals.

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If we were to understand him, you would find that there is so much deception. So much lying.

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So much physical abuse. So much stealing from one another.

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So much corruption in the homosexual movement. But on the other hand, you will find that if one of them gets into a difficulty, you will find they will rally to that person.

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We can give you an instance. Young boys in homosexuality that was in the hospital.

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His parents can't even hardly get to him because the homosexuals have just flooded the room with flowers. They can't get any more flowers into the room.

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They're asking the florist to hold the picture there all the time. Seven, eight, nine of them at a time. Just there comforting.

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They rally to one another. And many of them are kind and gracious. They're sensitive to each other.

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And it creates distrust. It creates this. They turn to that from a cruel father.

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They'll turn to someone who cares and shows them kindness. And then, of course, one of the parts of the problem of the creation of homosexuality is the initial sexual experiences.

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I can give you incident after incident after incident. Case history after case history after case history. Of a young girl or a young boy.

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Who on their wedding night or sometime within their honeymoon. Or even until they're married. Even middle -aged adults.

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Who became disenchanted or disturbed or hurt somehow through sexual experiences or bad experiences.

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And turned to homosexuality. So many young people. And so many adults.

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Because the initial experiences or bad experiences. And it does not fulfill them.

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And so, therefore, they turn to these areas. And then also, of course, there is a glandular problem.

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It can cause homosexuality. Their glands can get out of balance. Some glandular problem. And, of course, the medical doctors can detect that.

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And it can be solved. And then, sometimes, you will find that there is a genetic problem.

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By genetics, I simply mean you can put it almost into the family line. I counseled with a young lady sometime ago.

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Whose mother and father, both of them professional people. And both of them were homosexuals. The mother was a lesbian.

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And the father was an aggressive male homosexual. And so the girl, married, loving, happily married, children.

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And yet, she was working. And she began to experience problems. And actually had an affair with a homosexual lady.

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Who was working there with her. And so she came. And she recognized wrong.

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And I haven't got in my mind that she had an experience with Christ. And yet, she recognized the wrongness.

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But through her relationship with her husband. It was a good relationship. And through the influence that she had seen in her mom and dad.

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Even when she stayed at home. The mom would allow the husband to have visitors. And the husband would allow the mom to have visitors. And then they would go off on weekends. She saw all that growing up as a young lady.

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And these things had tremendously saved her. She was a Christian. Yes, I believe she was saved. She hadn't wronged her mother in the Lord. She hadn't been faithful to the

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Lord. She hadn't been faithful to the promises that were facing her.

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And these are very positive for that particular fact. Now how would you deal with a homosexual person?

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What would you do if one came to you? Or what would you do if a young lady came to you? In your community? Or a young boy?

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Or a young adult? And he came to you and said, Miss so -and -so. Or Mr. so -and -so. Or Reverend so -and -so.

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Or Dr. so -and -so. I need to talk to you about a problem. And they just lay out on you. What would you do? What could we say to them?

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I think the first thing is we need to know that they're a human being. We have to accept that they're a human being. They're less than human. Now even though I would agree with you that it's an abomination to God.

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We abhor it. We detest it. It is wrong. It should not be in society. There's such things as adultery. All those things we agree on.

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But here's the problem. Let me ask you a question. Does God categorize sin? No. Nominations do.

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And people do. But if you read the category of sins, six things that God hates.

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Proverbs says. A lying tongue and a boastful look. Proud look.

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Yeah, sure. Homosexuality as an abomination to God. Is it any worse than a lie?

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Is it any worse than pride? No, I think not. As an abomination to God, it's a horrible thing.

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It is sin. But they can be helped if we look at them. And then we need to see them that they are not a homosexual by nature but through life experiences.

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Help them understand that through life experiences they have come to where they are before you ever try to lead them astray.

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That is sin. That's an abomination to God. I'm sure what Leviticus says and you read them some scripture that just explodes in front of them. Help them understand why he is where he is before you ever try to take him where you want him to go.

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And then thirdly, we have to deal with it as a problem. Patience, understanding, and a heart that understands.

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We don't have a particular incident that in itself dealt with a homosexual.

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And we do know that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for being homosexual communities but he didn't destroy

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Lot. And Lot lived there. In fact, if you'll read Genesis 19 you will find that Lot was willing to turn his two daughters over to the entire community to do with as they would.

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He said when those two men came into him Lot said, I pray you do not so wickedly.

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Behold, I have two daughters who have never known a man. Take them and do with them as you will.

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And the scripture says that all the men came from every quarter old and young and then it said all the people came from every quarter in Genesis 19.

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All the men and the women those cities were totally populated by homosexuals and those who were caught up in the perversions of the sexual area.

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And he said, I have two daughters. He said, take them and do with them as you will but these men do nothing for therefore came they to the shadow of my roof.

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Take them and do with them as you will. God did not destroy him because Abraham did not pray him.

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God spared him. Lot belonged to God in the wrong place so God got him out. These people can come to Christ.

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It is possible for them to get saved and if they can get saved they can get their life changed. So we must deal with it as another problem and not look on it even though in our hearts we know it is a horrible thing.

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And then we also have to realize that if you only give them what you think about it and tell them they already know what you think about it.

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It is okay to clarify it for them but they basically know what you think about it. But you can share with them what you think about it but also let them share with you.

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They'll tell you, well, I'm happy. I have a fulfilled life. You don't understand.

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How can you tell me that I'm not fulfilled? How can you tell me that I'm not contented? How can you tell me that I'm not happy?

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How can you tell me that there's no purpose to what I'm doing? How can you tell me when I have a relationship that's just as stable as yours?

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And many times they do. They think. But it's a false way of life and we understand that and it leads to degradation.

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It leads to that which is disastrous. But we need to have a complete discussion with them and also we need to encourage them as we deal with them and as they begin to come along and as they become drug users.

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One of the biggest problems with young people is when they get saved, they still hang around the same people going to the same places.

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The tragedy is many adults do. When they become a Christian, they don't change the friends they hang around.

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They don't change life. Many Christians, you know, the Bible says you get a new walk. Walk, worry. Walk differently.

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So many people sit in the churches of the world who claim to be Christians. They used to hang around with before they became

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Christians. Where is the changed life? How much of the life changes? They go to the same amusements.

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In fact, very little has changed except they've added some things but they haven't given up.

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What did we get saved from and to whom did we get saved? It's inconceivable that we could demand of this person that he change friendships, that he change his lifestyle and I don't change.

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You don't have to be a Christian. You don't have to do as I say. Obviously you don't. I just share it with you that a Christian can go and sit in a movie made by Hollywood for three hours and yet I promise you that most

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Christians can do that. Sit in total darkness and give Hollywood their mind and sit there and drink and everything Hollywood says and then you can't get them to pray three hours in a week or read the

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Bible three hours a week. In the world.

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Never win one person to Christ. It's done by 5 % of the people. 85 out of every 100 never give commissions of any kind.

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To me that's inconceivable but it happens all the time. I find Christians, I know churches have dances in them.

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Churches, they have dances in them. I have a little saying that I like to use.

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There never has been a praying knee and a dancing foot on the same leg. There never has been.

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And there never will be. Never will be. No such thing. So what I'm saying is here's a person come and we tell him that if we speak to him out of our mind it only changes his mind somewhat but if we speak to him out of our heart and if we have that kind of life then he can accept that and go with it.

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Also we need to be alert to referral possibilities. It may get beyond us to get rid of this person.

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Not just to get rid of them but so this person can continue it and help them. Be alert to referral possibilities.

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And then with a homosexual person as with many other people of course you have to allow them a good period of time for rehabilitation.

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Because you have to remember they have a complete lifestyle that is so vastly different than the norm that we understand in the heterosexual relationship where their life can change, yes but their lifestyle or they not go back and just continue and just wean it off, no.

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They'll stop all of those activities immediately but we have to allow them a long period of time before they're going to become the consistent

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Christian that you want them to be. Same thing with anyone else in many areas. It takes a while to become a consistent

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Christian. And then not to belabor it but we also have to make sure that this person has had a good rehabilitation.

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Now, in order to establish if you're going to counsel with people we want to do some things to help this person understand where they are and what they're doing.

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In order to do this in counseling with them I have some charts here for you and I was going to put them out and I'm going to lay these out here later but I want to go over them and I'll give them to you to get you if you want to do any counseling with people to get you a 4x6 card just a 4x6 card and in one corner of it just put situation and just right up top of it situation and keep that don't put anything in it and just keep these at your disposal keep them in your home keep them in your car keep them wherever and you need a list if you don't have it in your mind

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I have these in my office and I have daily Bible reading and I have a colon and I can put them a daily

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Bible reading there and when I counsel with a person I give them one of these cards I give them one of them and then

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I keep one of them to keep a list of suggested books and periodicals that you can give them some of you said can you give me a book on this and you'd ask our brother what kind of books are these and can you give me a book on this subject people want something they can refer back to there are tremendous articles and there are great books nothing heavy but simple things and we begin that piece of literature before we ever refer it to someone and then give them scripture to memorize every person that comes to you for any help whatsoever if you're going to spend any time with them at all you need to get from them a commitment that they will memorize scripture and they memorize the ones you tell them so give them scripture memorization if you want to give them a week, fine sometimes it might take them two weeks but give them scripture to memorize and then there may be some specific prayer need that they have in their life and you want to put that down there something that's going to be prayed for for them something they need prayer for in their life and then projects deal with projects give them guidelines and activities ask them to do something in their life say alright

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I want you to go home tonight sir and I want you to sit down with your wife and I want you to ask for her forgiveness for your abuse tell her you've been dishonest tell her that you've done this, that and just tell her, just be open and just tell her that you want a minute and a half of her time and just say

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I don't want you to interrupt me I just want to talk to you for a minute and just tell her what is on your life on your heart and in your life and explain that to her and just say now will you forgive me and if she just waits for a moment or whatever but ask her say will you forgive me it is important will you forgive me and then you get her forgiveness and then

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I might put down there do the same thing with your children or go to the neighbor or I might sit down and say write out for me five goals that you have in your life five priorities you have in your life or five changes that you want to occur in your life this year five needs you think you have

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I may give him any number of those things then I might ask him to find one person that he believes that he can share his life with and get him to share his life it depends on the situation we will go over some of the situations in a moment but you know it is real interesting one man said to me

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I can tell you three things that you will never become a backslaving Christian if you will read the Bible 15 minutes a day if you pray 15 minutes a day if every day you try to tell someone about Christ you will never go into a backslaving condition it is impossible to do so if you read the

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Bible 15 minutes a day and try to tell someone about Christ you make five phone calls in a minute and a half if you don't talk about the

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African violence society if you don't talk about sweet potatoes if you talk about things that are important we can do it it is amazing what can be done very quickly on the phone so we give them this card and demand demand that they do it if they don't do it

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I say all right let's go over your projects and so I go over their projects they say well I didn't have time to do that I didn't have time to do this and so I circle that one and I make sure that that's still there and maybe they've done one they may not have done any

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I give them another shot and I say now is there any reason why you can't can you do this oh yeah I can I just don't have time now if they tell me they don't have time they have to do it but there are some people who are incapable of doing something

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I ask them to do although it's very simple but I don't know that maybe they don't understand it or it may be some other kind of difficulty but if they can do it then

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I send them out to do it again and I bring them back in the next session if they've not done it that next time and they can't satisfy me that there is a reason why then

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I break my relationship with them and I don't deal with them any longer I say you have to go somewhere else I can't work with you you either have to do what

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I ask you to do or I can't work with you I can't spend my time with you 8 and V by 11 and I found 23 problems that are prevalent in humanity just 23 basic problems you could start alphabetically addiction, drug addiction alcoholism adultery now on one side

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I just want down all the age groups honestly you ought to see all of them national

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Teenage Boy Team No Teen Girl men women elderly man elderly woman and then

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I put other special categories But there might be some special category out of one of those that I would use and then

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I just put a column down underneath addiction and I have typed in their scripture that apply for a child

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Who was and I can name you seven and eight year old children that are drug addicts? It's no problem.

31:32

You know, it's in the elementary schools of the world today. It's dropping all the time Housewives are addicted to drugs.

31:39

So I write a scripture there for each one them in that problem Now again, if they're not involved in problem I don't and I do that for everyone of these particular problems so that I can have that scripture reference available to me when they

31:48

Come in some of them I already know but I cannot depend upon the back of many of these things in memory I'll do especially deal people in the force of life and you get all these things and all the mail this year

31:56

Out of our office just and we just have we just bought a ministry office that We're pretty close right now to almost

32:02

I'd imagine about a one and three -quarter million pieces of mail that have gone out if you can individual pieces They're going out so there's no way in the world you're gonna remember and I'd like to tell you that I have the

32:12

Bible memorize But I don't oh I put it down and I have it all typed out and I use these then

32:19

I just continue those situations out So when a person comes to me, I have this on my desk I can take this out and sit it there and as they talk to me

32:27

I can look at this as I write down what they're saying I take my notes and so forth I can put the scripture and I scripture there and as I look at that scripture verse

32:34

Immediately it comes to my mind a thought comes to my mind a principle comes to my mind and I've got a reinforcement for dealing with That particular individual

32:41

I'll have some copies up here for you and you can take these and you can just look them over and perhaps you can use them and Perhaps they'll be of some help to you tomorrow

32:55

What I would like to do is to move into an area Briefly with you some of the things that involve some of the pressures

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I have a personal evaluation for husband but I thought well we might not better go into that because of the ladies were excited for you men came in and we

33:13

It would been unanimous if we put it to a vote You know the two complaints that are usually lodged against husbands

33:19

How about marital counseling the two complaints that are usually lodged? Mostly one is that the men cannot control their temper number one and secondly their pride they never admit

33:29

They're wrong. Those are usually the two complaints that come more from a wife and from the children the dad never says wrong and the

33:37

They lose their temper and I find that a child or young person or a wife's attitude

33:43

The husband usually will reflect our attitude towards God It usually will and so I thought we'd share tomorrow with you to make your life more delightful just maybe we'll get into some of the tips of a happier sex life and you don't have to Go to Madame Lassonde school of love in Marseille, France to understand that you could have a delightful relationship one with another

34:06

There are many things that are propagated in life today Then I would like to share with you before we move into the other areas six pressures in married life

34:16

Six tremendous pressures in married life and it not matter if if you could sit down and evaluate young people if we could sit down and evaluate couples and help them understand these six pressures it can alleviate so very much and Some of them we've not touched on any of these since we've been talking just briefly we commented on a couple of them and so I propose to do that and Then I would like to move into an area perhaps a deal with thoughts

34:43

No thoughts Satan always works on a person first in the realm of thoughts

34:49

Always a thought your mind your body never does anything your mind doesn't tell it to be basically Unnormal circumstances my arm didn't move my mind didn't move and I can get a collar shot, you know, it's a muscular action

34:59

But basically you don't go anywhere But your mind doesn't tell you to go and it's true with everyone under normal circumstances

35:06

And so I'd like to deal with you and share with you and give you and encourage you in some areas of how to deal with thoughts

35:15

How to deal with off and keep your thoughts as opposed to your thoughts and keep our minds Concentrating on those areas that God wants us to concentrate on and then

35:23

I wants to move in to the area Move toward the leafy area of Spiritual warfare because it'll take us a little while to get some of an information in all right

35:34

We have just a couple of minutes And then we'll take our right but take our time off and get ready for brother

35:41

Paul this evening But would you have a question right now concerning something that I've said today or something?

35:47

I didn't say No, no her parents were not believers and both of more professional people they were in the medical field yeah, but Yeah, well, it's extremely possible for a person to be saved and get into a situation

36:21

As where they can go off into something Immune to these even though they're Christian if a person gets out from under the protection of the

36:26

Lord and gets away from walking with God, they're susceptible anything because we were saved does not make us immune to the possibility of turning away from the things of the

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Lord. I Can I know people personally that and you do too who've got involved in many things?

36:39

who I'm really convinced or save people because they get out of control as Dr. Paul says to us as a script to tell you.

36:56

Oh Yes, if you're asking if you're saying that a person who is in this lifestyle who becomes saved

37:04

Obviously if they're just say they're gonna come out of it That's just that just obvious but it's possible for a person who is a

37:10

Christian to drift and fall back I don't believe they can stay there I believe that God they'll either come out or God will take their life one of the two

37:16

You'll take them on home and get them out of the picture But we've dealt with many people that I'm as convinced as I am who

37:22

I am as best I can be that they had a born -again experience in their life But they were in severe difficulties in their life for many reasons for many reasons and some are reclaimed and some are aren't

37:34

The teaching is that a Christian can't commit suicide I can get instant after instant of people that I'm convinced knew the

37:40

Lord but took their life Under pressures and under things of this nature, it's possible. Yes, sir

37:50

Pardon me Where you reading from where you eating from are the two things to get a person saved or one

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The revelation 21 8 said all liar shall have their part in the lake of fire mean you going There's forgiveness in Christ There's forgiveness in Christ.

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How many of my sins were atoned for when Christ died 2 ,000 years ago? all of them past present future

38:28

No, I don't have difficult I fully understand both terms I'm gonna say both I think the problem comes is whenever we believe because the person is saved that that person cannot get into a backstabbing condition

38:38

That's where they can and I since the fire I'm convinced to save people If I understand at chapter 4,

38:43

I'll be a new lawyer. God killed them both But they told a lie and they lied to God Peter denied the

38:50

Lord only denied him what I'm saying to you is that the human mind is a very complex thing and If a person gets out of the

38:59

Word of God if a person's out on the prayer That person has moved out from under the protection of the

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Lord they are saved but God only blesses obedient children He doesn't bless a person in disobedience

39:10

He bless an obedient child of God that person can continue Into a backslidden state to such a point as they will lose the sense of God's presence in their life and that person is open to be used by the enemy to do a number of things and Sutton has set out for example in 2nd

39:28

Corinthians Paul says less second get an advantage of you We are not ignorant of his devices. How many Christians know what the devices of Satan are?

39:36

We say he's a liar. He's a murderer. No, those are characteristics. Those are not devices What are his devices if we don't know his devices then

39:41

Paul plainly says that he can get an edge of us And yet I would suggest that most Christians do not know his devices.

39:47

They just know his basic characteristics and To me as I understand it and you're not obligated to believe as I but it's been my experience

39:54

That's extremely dangerous to believe because a person say that they can't commit what we call a gross sin

40:00

Sin is not categorized as far as God is concerned Sin is in a lie is in pride is seen

40:11

By the materials that person can order tapes as often as they like I may order to on Monday They may order to Friday.

40:17

They may write more to The next Monday they can order the others at their own choosing whichever one now

40:23

I've said the four things that I always ask people to do and we have people in Taiwan We have people in South Africa.

40:29

We have them in Costa Rica We have many of them in the Toronto Niagara Falls Hamilton across Canada who are involved in this

40:35

We ask that you always do four things If you take this material if you fill this bottom part out you keep the top part

40:41

Cut that off and give that to me prior to my leaving I'll take it back with me save you the postage and then

40:46

I will begin sending them to you We just finished a series on the abundant life. We are about to start a series on spiritual warfare

40:54

Recognition of the powers of darkness and how they affect the Christian life. We're not getting too heavy into it First of all, if you fill this out

41:01

Then obviously you are telling me by filling this out that you will study that material very carefully Now what that means is you don't just listen to it

41:07

That means if it quotes a scripter or if I recite a scripture you stop that tape recorder wherever you are

41:13

Can you read descriptors if it says that to you and if that scripter doesn't say that to you You please write me a letter say

41:18

I don't see that Challenge me with it. We'll discuss it because I don't want to teach you something that I don't believe myself

41:23

And so you study the merit merit carefully secondly, you let someone else study with you if possible now

41:28

This is not a library. It is your material. It becomes yours. You never return it thirdly

41:34

We ask that you would pray for us whenever you think about us fourthly is financial Fourthly, I simply will assume that when you fill this out and give it to me that what you're saying

41:44

Is if God ever lays on my heart that we should send you some financial help We'll do it

41:49

We'll sit in God says we'll send it the way he says and ever how much he says and that's all you have to say

41:54

And I'll assume that so when you give that to me that you're just open to God's leadership in your life

42:00

It is not charged. We don't charge anything for it is by faith. It isn't free It's by faith and we just trust you won't ever get a bill from me

42:08

You'll know your letter saying if you don't send me $25, we're going out of business. We don't do that They are yours for the taking and so you may have those the other one

42:17

One of the men was talking to me about it. Just briefly. It is a home Bible course It's I made a mistake by putting four -year

42:23

Bible course because that frightens people as I balanced in four years It is exactly the same Bible course.

42:28

It's taught in your average Bible College You can do it quicker than four years, obviously and there

42:35

These semesters are broken down by books of the Bible. The first six books of the Bible is one semester

42:41

We send you the questions written out You answer them written out.

42:46

You write the question you have instructions You write you send them back to me and I grade each question personally

42:51

I will go over everyone personally and I will make comments I'll write in their underline circle to if you're wrong and tell you need more light on the scripture tell you to go pray

43:01

I'll go read another scripture and then we will send those back to you graded and That will be the next lesson and we'll take you through every book of the

43:10

Bible. You don't have to worry about dates We don't send you looking up dates. I send you all the dates You don't have to worry about which prophet preached when which

43:17

King rule I will send you those What I want you to do is know the book of the Bible Know what's in that book and we'll take you through every book of the

43:25

Bible now You can't get credit for it But you will have a value of having that knowledge With you and you can probably do this.

43:31

I have some people just enrolled in and they're already in Leviticus And they'll usually 10 to 15 questions sometimes 20 that are involved in them so those forms are out there you can take them or leave them whichever is convenient for you in whichever your heart desires and I'll not be angry with you one way or the other and we'll just get along fine all right, take a deep breath, please and just relax after lunch no offering during the noon session and I'm going to give you a test this afternoon

44:00

It's in Hebrew If you pass it you'll do all right, if you fail it you have to give me five dollars

44:05

I Want to share several things with you in moving towards our session tomorrow evening

44:13

Which I think is very critical for us, but I want to share a couple thoughts back on something that we looked at earlier concerning Dealing with people and when

44:23

I say counseling I'm talking from the professional sense but I'm also talking from a you as a Sister or brother in Christ when you deal with someone you are actually counseling with that person

44:33

And so these things are optimal in that area But I want to share a thought or two of some things that are helpful in dealing with an individual

44:42

Just some general things of how to detect what they're trying to say to you and me And then also how to keep from becoming emotionally involved with these people somebody you love and somebody you care about It's very difficult.

44:54

Sit back and just look at them very objectively because it's our tendency to get involved with them

44:59

And then I want us to look at some back with the young people a little bit So many questions have been coming concern is about some possibilities in dating how to handle some of the dating situation how to handle some of the going steady situation how to handle some of the

45:13

Discipline and then I want to give you a project that you can do with a daughter That a father can do with a daughter give you a project a father can do with a son

45:21

Just how to disciple that child how to get that person that young boy that young girl

45:26

Where they will want to do or they can do what God wants them to do in their life and you can raise a godly

45:32

Child in this way now, obviously, it's nice if you start out when they're quite early, but some don't have that opportunity so let me just give you a sort of a

45:41

Guideline of what to do when you first start talking to a person about a problem You can call this an introductory examination or you can just talk about Initial contact or you can just say the first time they come to me

45:53

But you and I have to take a difficulty that a person has and we have to examine not only the problem but we have to also find out what the accompanying motive is what the problem is and what their motive is a

46:07

Lot of people will ask you questions and they don't really want an answer What they want is an answer they are looking for one which will justify their position or allow them to continue to do what they

46:18

Are doing all they want you to do. They just want you to reinforce what they're doing They don't really want an answer and I have a little thing that I've picked up That I like to do with people if they cause me a little mental difficulty there and I sense something going

46:30

Kind of haywire in my conversation with them. I'll say they'll come up and I do this a lot with people in meetings you must have a question for you and They'll ask me a question.

46:40

I'll say now let me ask you a question Please if I give you the answer to that question, will you do it?

46:47

They say well I'm not sure I said no use me. Give me an answer Well, maybe

46:53

I will maybe I won't well then why you asked me for No, it's a waste of my time waste of your time. Why should

46:58

I spend time answer? Why we won't take about time discussing this if you're not gonna do it Anyway, they'll say well, I'll tell you the answer to it

47:05

I'll tell you what I think the answer is if you promise me you'll do it And they say well, no something there's no use discussion, you know, why worry about it?

47:11

Just forget it It's not big a problem to you isn't so not gonna be a problem to me, you know I'm not gonna feed it So you going off and so we have to examine their motive of why they're coming to us

47:21

But a woman came and she had a tremendously pressing problem with her and as we began to talk

47:27

She expressed to me the thought she said I just believe that as a wife. I am a complete failure

47:33

No, no, well that sounds kind of common to me, you know I can handle that All right and she began to talk and I listened to her what

47:40

I felt like was quite carefully and I began to encourage her to speak up and just go ahead and share, you know and everyone's walla to kind of you have to catch yourself playing the role of the

47:48

You know the counselor you go Yes, quite interesting yes

47:55

And but if you don't get them to talking if you just grunt long soon They don't respond to grunts and they will the first couple but after that they don't you've got to bring it out of them

48:04

So I began to get there her to talk and I began to sense that there were some deep roots That she wasn't talking about to me.

48:11

You see people talk about symptoms. They don't talk about the roots You've got to go beyond the symptoms. Most of us deal with symptoms

48:18

Most of us deal with them, you know, if you have a cold and you you blow your nostril You don't deal with a symptom. That's not the root.

48:24

That's not what's causing it You know tell the kid going to get you a handkerchief and solve that problem It's not gonna solve that problem is gonna deal with a symptom

48:31

They're not gonna sneeze as much but there's something causing that cold. So you have to weigh the questions

48:38

Does does this person or do they really feel this way? I know she's telling me this but does she really feel that way is she wanting me to reassure her that she's not a failure

48:49

Now that'd be the easiest way to go. Oh, wow. No, you're not a failure. You're a wonderful wife.

48:54

How do you know? You don't even know me. Oh Why you're a wonderful mother you don't know my kids

49:01

Well, I'm sure that you just know What is she wanting from me? She wanting reassurance or does she want sympathy?

49:09

Oh Yeah, that's easy one. Why bless your heart Why understand what you're saying?

49:15

Oh, I know what you're going through. She's how you know, you're not a woman Well what I mean is then

49:21

I'd sit there and she's counseling me. I gotta sit around explain to her what I'm doing Why I said that no is that is she looking for praise?

49:29

Maybe she wants me to praise her and that'll snap her out of her condition So as the session began to continue along she began to speak to me of what she felt like a failure was

49:38

She began to clarify it somewhat and she had been a disappointment. She said to her husband and her children

49:45

She just knew that she had and so I began to try to find a clue as to what brought about these circumstances

49:52

What causes her to think like she's thinking I know what she's saying But what is causing her and so I said well, let me ask you a question.

50:01

Have you always felt this way? When did this start? What caused you to start? I mean has this always been in your marriage or Does your husband criticize you all the time?

50:12

Do your children criticize you and if you don't children criticize their parents all you got to do is listen sometimes

50:17

It's in humor, but it's actually a criticism Actually a criticism and I've said is this

50:24

Do you have resentment? against your husband and more questions

50:29

She started asking me and the real motives did not emerge and I thought well what in the world am

50:36

I gonna do this lady? So she came back again, and I scheduled it in and then it began to come out

50:41

She began to blame herself and she said well, I just argued too much with my husband.

50:48

I Said well, that's interesting Why and she complained she said to me

50:53

I am too restricted to my marriage said I'll have any freedom He just restricts me everywhere.

50:59

I go. I got a check out with him every time I come in I got a check -in with him. I have to check I have restrictions in my marriage now

51:05

I thought well that doesn't sound it just didn't fit the picture and she said you know what I wish I wish

51:10

I had remained single and kept my career. I should never gotten married in the first place Well, I could have accepted that but things went on and then she began to shift she says well, you know

51:21

I've been sitting here. I said well, you know you really think that you're the blame Well, I'm not totally blame one. Well, he's probably as much to blame as I am

51:27

So I got her to give him half the blame Then before long he had three -fourths of the blame and before long.

51:33

He was the guilty culprit For long she said he's the cause of me being like I am. I was happy. I was single.

51:38

I had a career I didn't need him. He do but he talked me into this I should have gotten married in the first place and Exasperation is everywhere.

51:46

Well, the whole thing came down to this She said you know what? He is just like my father

51:56

There it was the deep root was she Resented her father and her husband was her father figure and she was seeing in her husband

52:08

The same thing she saw in her dad and she resented her husband because she resented her dad and dear people

52:14

You will find that most of the problems that people face you can follow it right through their family line You can follow it from grandfather to father to son

52:23

It just walks through the family just like that and just moves through so what

52:29

I'm saying is the true motivation That brought her to the realization of having a problem in getting there was just now beginning to emerge in that situation

52:39

The deep resentment her self -criticism was only a cloak It was only something that hid the fact and she could not say

52:47

I don't like my dad but once she could say that and we dealt about why

52:53

Then we got her to go to the point eventually to get on the telephone and call her dad and say dad I've loved you, but I want you to know that I resent you and I want you to forgive me for resenting you and Here's why

53:06

I resented you Will you forgive me for this and she didn't ask him to say anything except I will forgive you and you know

53:13

There was a cleansing effect that came into her heart She went to her husband and asked for his forgiveness, even though she really hadn't done anything

53:21

So what I'm saying is you and I have to examine the problem But you have to get to the motive of that problem

53:26

Why because it's usually a symptom and it helps us understand that now if you have a similar background you have an advantage sometime

53:36

You're in a unique position and people come to you and you say well, you know, I've experienced that same thing

53:41

I mean, I know what you're talking about I can identify with that and you're in a tremendous position and even though you may have some minor

53:49

Problems in your life they won't be a hindrance to you because you can understand and you can identify with a

53:56

Counselee and if you've experienced some of the same things they have it can be a tremendous advantage

54:03

Experience does help us in a lot of ways and after going through similar circumstances You have a tremendous opportunity to see exactly what they're facing, but it can be a great disadvantage

54:14

Because we have had similar experiences does not always prove to be an advantage it can be a

54:21

Disadvantage it can be a hindrance if you try to use the same prescription with every person

54:27

The same thing that worked in your life as a prescription may be poison to them No doctor will tell you to go into a medicine cabinet take anybody else's medicine

54:36

The way God worked with you and me you see may not be the way God will work with them the same prescription does not work for every person the same scriptures do and God is looking for a result but God deals with a person in their own personality in their own environment under their own circumstances and Well, I'm going to tell you what my dad did with me.

54:58

That may be fine Here's what I do with my child. That's fine But your child has a different personality than their child now

55:06

There are generalities that will function with all but you can't do it with every child You can't even do that in your home

55:11

You can't deal with four children and deal with each one of those children the same because they don't have the same capabilities

55:17

They don't have the same abilities. They don't have the same IQ. They don't have the same talent They don't have anything the same and yet we try to treat them all exactly right and wonder why they get frustrated

55:28

One can wash dishes and another will destroy your kitchen One can why you could turn loose one with a bucket of paint and then come out with a work of art

55:37

Paint you a mural on the wall beautiful you turn that up. You don't want that kid near the wall In fact, you have to chain them sometime keep crayons away.

55:44

They go crazy. No, they are different Yeah, so it can be a disadvantage if we are not very careful and then one of the great dangers of talking to people

55:55

Is that person will become dependent upon you? They will become dependent upon you and they will call you every time a problem comes up and it'll be a simple thing

56:05

They'll call you day and night now ministers get themselves into a lot of problems. Have you ever heard this said by a minister?

56:11

You call me day or night. I Am here to minister to you and you just call me day or night and then within three months

56:20

He will gripe and complain. I can't have any time for my family every time I eat the phone Every time

56:26

I sit down to the rest of it. I'm gonna read the paper the phone rings. I can't get any sleep They call me all times of the day or night.

56:32

I said well, let me ask you a question. Why do they call you? Have you ever told them they could well,

56:38

I told them, you know, call me in case of an emergency Well, you know what emergency is in the church an emergency as simple as whatever.

56:44

I don't hang around. Tell me that's an emergency Call the pastor up at 11 o 'clock night pastor. Somebody told me we're having a fellowship next week.

56:50

I didn't sit in the bulletin Well, it's in the bulletin. Do you have one? Well, I didn't say I yeah, I have one. I didn't read it

56:55

I I have my Bible somewhere. I don't know where it is But I just thought I'd call you and you'd tell me

57:01

I said why not sir. Tell your people when you become pastor that church I have a family just like you have one.

57:09

I Have children just like you do I have to spend time with my wife just like you have to spend time with your wife

57:15

I have to teach my children just like you do now. I'm available to you all day long

57:20

My phone is available. You call me I'm available for an emergency but now here's what an emergency is and I'd name to them what an emergency is an

57:30

Emergency is not whenever your lawnmower doesn't work. It's not whenever you run out of gas in your lawnmower And emergency is when you can't figure out something about the

57:37

Sunday school lesson. Those are not emergencies No, you said well, we're assigned deacons to him and then the poor deacon comes along here

57:43

He gets them all night long the pastor. So is it boy? I'm rid of that stuff. Let him call the deacon.

57:49

So here comes the deacon now deacons got to tell him what an emergency is He's got a good man. So what we do is we create all these problems in turn around trying to beat him off of us

57:58

But I think that we need to understand that people are just naturally inclined to become dependent upon someone they love or respect or look to for leadership that it's just a human tendency and So we have to be careful that one of the great

58:10

Responsibilities of someone counseling with a person is to help them put away their crutches and stand on their own two feet

58:16

We have to help them to walk alone. It is of no value if you carry them all through life

58:23

We've got to help them to become disciplined and the counseling process is nothing more than to help a person become a responsible

58:30

Mature person in Jesus Christ. That's what we're trying to do with this individual now a dependent person cannot do two things a

58:40

Dependent well many but a dependent person Cannot have discipline in their life and they cannot regulate their life if they are dependent upon you or me or anyone else

58:50

They'll not develop discipline and they will not be able to regulate their life. They will begin to call you

58:55

I've had them ask me first. I mean simple. I said well, you know how to do that You don't call me tell me you need to go to the grocery store and get groceries and if you're hungry go get them

59:05

Well, should I do this? Oh, you don't tell me that you don't tell me it sends you get school Sure, since it gets good. It's okay You want to go to work?

59:12

They find good work You work overtime fine go. I can't answer all those questions for them

59:18

But they'll ask you until you cut that umbilical cord and let them walk Alone and they will not gain their own insights if they become too dependent upon you now

59:29

You know what? The tendency is amongst Christians. We like to clone people now We tell them and I've said this earlier.

59:35

I want you to be like Christ Don't be like me, but wouldn't we really like one to be like us?

59:41

I mean we really would it wouldn't be I mean it could be worse things happen Other than being like me they could be like you.

59:46

I mean, you know, it could be worse We really don't want them to be like us, but we really do why we like for them go off and say do you know?

59:56

I'm just like brother so -and -so Because he is the man that's influenced my life more than anyone else.

01:00:02

I'm just like he is Well that pumps the ego what that does that makes that person so dependent upon us

01:00:09

The tragedy that is they go out and do something wrong. Somebody comes in Yeah, you know what you taught this one to do don't you

01:00:14

I'll tell you what you taught him to do and then you get that too So it's positive and negative on both of these

01:00:21

We want them to develop their own insight procedure where they can learn what they need to learn and get it on their own

01:00:27

And we must assume the role basically of being a catalytic agent. We want to just be a catalyst

01:00:33

We want to be a person an instrument a tool that God can use to spring them forward or to push them into or to guide them through somehow rather to get them on the rail of life with the

01:00:45

Lord so that they can sail on themselves and they can Take care of anything in front of them. You can always be a resource

01:00:51

I always tell them once they go I said look you can get off the train anytime you want We're gonna start working through your difficulties, but now you will determine what it's time for you to get off the train

01:01:00

But I'm gonna encourage you every once in a while Sometimes you have to spiritually put your foot in their back and push them off the caboose because they don't want to get off They don't want to get off and use that say it's terrible.

01:01:09

I don't I can't I can't make it I can't do it. If you need me if you need me, I'll be here.

01:01:15

I'll be here I'm gonna pray for you, and I'm always here if you ever need me, but I have confidence in you

01:01:21

I wouldn't tell you to go and not come back again if I didn't really believe you could do it

01:01:27

I have confidence in you that you can do it and you just keep telling them that they can do it and it's amazing

01:01:34

They're gonna do it. They'll go out do it. But as long as you do it for them, why should they? So we want to cut off this dependence

01:01:41

That they have and we want to encourage and we want to regulate this therapeutic process

01:01:47

We want to do that, but we don't want to cause it and we want to strongly direct it

01:01:52

Let them guide themselves through it and you just be the resource for them and what it will do

01:01:59

It is very subtle and it's very unconscious that this dependence occurs, but we must not ever

01:02:05

Make their decisions for them show them the solution, but let them make their own decisions

01:02:14

Because if you make it for them that they have not gained that insight on their own and There is no discipline in their mentality concerning that particular problem.

01:02:23

So a thought is That the counselee should develop his own insights and his own ideas

01:02:31

Because if you don't there is no maturation the maturity will not occur during that counseling process

01:02:37

The therapeutic process is to bring a person from a given point

01:02:42

Bring them into spiritual maturity or to put them into the avenue where they can gain spiritual maturity

01:02:49

But maturity will not develop and it will not come if you and I do not help this person develop their own insights

01:02:57

Formulate their own ideas and translate those into positive action in their life

01:03:02

Now we must not expect them to do everything correctly

01:03:08

But on the other hand, we must not allow them to expect us to solve their problems for them

01:03:15

We are not problem solvers We are there to assist them in finding the solution for their life the spirit of the

01:03:25

Living God Has the solution to their life and they have to learn that they can stand on their own and they also have to learn they

01:03:32

Can walk alone. Oh Sure, we can have fellowship, but they can walk and face life alone

01:03:38

So what we usually do is I make very sure in my own life when I'm talking to someone at least

01:03:44

I try to I try to make very very sure that I examine any question.

01:03:50

They ask me. I Mean, I'm turning it over in my mind because they will give you some direct questions

01:03:55

And sometimes they'll be very blunt with you and what they're trying to do is they just trying to check you out

01:04:01

Now I furnish them an answer for any question they give me I don't say well, you know

01:04:06

I don't want to answer that one right now. That's too delicate time. I don't think we need know They've asked for a reason and I would in now

01:04:12

They're usually sometimes they'll be asking for a reaction from they watch you and they'll say something to you They'll just drop it on you kids will do it teenagers will do it and they're trying to find out what your reaction is

01:04:22

But you know, you and I are so concerned Sometimes I believe about what people think about us and what are people going to say about us that we don't stop to think

01:04:30

About what this person is really saying to me now what they're doing Usually is trying to pry out of you a general attitude before they ever start with you

01:04:39

They'll come in and just trying to find out where you are mentally which direction are you gonna take me in?

01:04:45

All right, I've come to you and I've asked you about a problem now Which way we're gonna go and so the sometimes they'll just drop a little bomb on you

01:04:51

They begin to probe you and sometimes they're trying to find out they can trust you and it's amazing

01:04:56

What you can find out in two or three minutes with a person in speaking with them You can tell you can tell

01:05:01

I'm not so sure I can trust this fella. I'm not so sure I can trust I have people come all the time.

01:05:07

I'm sure there's some kind of me go somewhere else, but they don't tell me this But I've been to come say yeah, how come you don't go to your pastor?

01:05:14

Well, I just don't feel comfortable. They'll give you some of the rigmarole. I said no tell me now Have you gone to him talk to him?

01:05:19

No. Well, I think maybe you should go to him I mean, he's your pastor. Why don't you go to him and you heard it's been done for years

01:05:27

Sometimes those in the ministry are some of the most untrustworthy people that you can go to they're just not gonna do it

01:05:33

Why he preach a sermon on it? He won't use their name He'll say John Doe somewhere, but everybody in town knows who it is

01:05:39

And he got a little good sermon on it, you know Or he'll go home and he'll tell his wife and he just needs her counsel

01:05:44

But he doesn't know the kids sitting in there in the other room listening So the kid gets on phone to you my dad said today man

01:05:49

Let me tell you this and for a long head kid finds out and who gets it somebody kick us as mom You know what son that told me that somebody said so it does it and again and the pastor's son said what?

01:06:01

And he relates a story and the mother's horrified because it's her she's once been down there And if you think that won't ring the pastor's phone

01:06:07

I mean, that'll get him busy in a hurry and tracing that thing down It's like Hydra the many -headed serpent

01:06:13

You can't ever trace it down and it just continues to go that way The kids will come in you'll talk to him and say well now, you know

01:06:19

The scripture says honor thy father thy mother Which is the first commandment with a promise that it may be well with thee and that your days on earth may be long

01:06:26

You see God will cut your life short the days of an unrighteous man I says an unrighteous man does not live out half his days

01:06:32

That it may be well with you and I say many young people Die quickly they die early because they're in rebellion against their parents.

01:06:40

They have physical emotional problems cost They're in rebellion that it may be well with you and that your days on earth me not say why should

01:06:46

I obey my parents? How come well the Bible says why I'm saying what the Bible said

01:06:52

But I'm done. Why should I obey mine? I have Christian kids and friends of mine. They don't obey theirs

01:06:59

You say well, I'll tell you what if you don't God will zap you that'll be good for you God said the man

01:07:04

God will get you You won't develop not and say well, why shouldn't you? Are there any advantages for you?

01:07:13

Now, I know that may be somewhat and I want to be careful about getting into a psychological approach Basically because we're dealing with spiritual matters

01:07:21

But you've got to get that kids attention and you've got to deal with him where he is And so I just say well not only does what does the scripture teach?

01:07:28

I just said what does the Bible just are there any advantages for you? Obey your parents the reward system.

01:07:34

What does God tell you and me you obey me and you do or else no lay up treasures

01:07:42

God always rewards good and he always deals with that which is bad. That's what God does

01:07:47

He not only blessed us. We say well I serve the Lord because I love him. Do you really? Do we really?

01:07:54

Maybe that's the problem Maybe that's how come we don't get much done Maybe that's how come we're winning fewer people to the

01:08:02

Lord every year That's why they're more lost people on the planet Earth today than ever any time in history Because we serve the

01:08:08

Lord because we say well I serve because I love him. Well, do we? That's why communism is one more people in two generations than Christianity has in 2 ,000 years.

01:08:18

I'm not saying we don't love him, but you see we do serve the Lord out of gratitude because of love But we also say why because he's gonna reward us for our faith.

01:08:25

I want them all don't you? I want a reward I can get let's face it Get them all as a well. I don't want any you don't want any can

01:08:31

I have yours? Would you praise the Lord give him mine and he'll give me that one He'll give you mine.

01:08:38

I want them all I want them all so I talked about advantages. What are they?

01:08:44

We'll talk about this in a few but memorizing scripture one of the quickest way in the world get kids memorize scriptures reward them for it

01:08:50

Give them rewards for doing it. We do it in church. We give them certificates if they go through a course We give them a little pen if they come to Sunday school long enough.

01:08:58

We give all kinds of award in church But coming home memorize that verse of scripture boy. You don't go out for seven years

01:09:07

You do that, you know dad I can't swim with a sack of this rock in here, you know We're taking him on down the road

01:09:14

Let him go down change to the drain of the swimming pool. Let him play down there for a while I'll see what happens. No, we can reward them.

01:09:20

I know this I'm gonna come and say well, how come I shouldn't have premarital sex? All my friends do it doesn't hurt them

01:09:26

Well, I can name y 'all kinds of couple got married and and they all did during school or why shouldn't

01:09:31

I? That's well, do you think everybody ought to do it? Well, I mean you have a little sister Do you think she ought to be well, no,

01:09:39

I don't think she hunt me. Yeah. Well, I mean you think I'm well Why do you think this? Let me ask you a question.

01:09:44

Are there any negative results if you do that? What are the negatives in there? Let's listen what what could happen?

01:09:50

Let's write down some things happen. They don't think about negatives They don't think about that which they think are positives

01:09:56

So we got to bring them back, you know positive has no value unless there's a negative heaven means nothing less. There's a hell

01:10:02

One thing helps me appreciate that. I'm gonna be with the Lord is I know I couldn't go somewhere else And so it makes me more appreciate that and nothing hasn't appears.

01:10:10

Oh, what's wrong with divorce? Well, if you hear that everywhere We used to get one out of every three marriages, you know in the divorce now, you can't get one out of three to last and On and on it goes

01:10:22

What's wrong with us? Well, what are the advantages in divorce? Let's write them down What what do you see advantages and it's amazing what some of them right now.

01:10:30

I said, well, what are the negatives? What are the temporary results of a divorce? I have one young man.

01:10:37

He said I think he said they're 23 23 results of divorce. Oh, well, that's fine.

01:10:42

What there may be 24. I don't know. We'll take 23 I said what are the temporary results? What are the long -range effects of divorce get them thinking about what they are actually saying?

01:10:53

Because most people are just talking off the top of their head and they've got something worked out in their mind You know and one good one that comes out occasionally is and the guy said well

01:11:02

I want to tell you something now what I've told you about my wife Wouldn't you leave her if yours like mine? Wouldn't you leave yours if yours did that?

01:11:10

well That's important and I understand what you're saying. Could we just talk about that for a moment?

01:11:16

Let's talk about your relationship to your wife and go on and get on before long. You know, he's discussing with you

01:11:22

So you have to deal with them and find out what they're actually saying and why are they saying what they're saying?

01:11:29

What is their motive now? It's very difficult to not get involved with people it is very difficult for your heart longs to help people a

01:11:38

Christians heart God's put in the life of every Christian the possibility and the capability of being sensitive being loving being tender and when we handle another life, we want to be very careful and In doing that it's very easy to become emotionally involved with that person to the point that I cannot be objective with them and It's you can't deal with children this way.

01:12:00

Sure But when you deal with them in certain issues You have to kind of stand back and you have to really look at that thing

01:12:07

If you don't you're gonna correct them in anger You'll correct them in here with irritation or you'll say something you wish you had never said.

01:12:17

Oh I take that back. You can't take it back. No more. You take a bullet back. That's been fired from a gun a

01:12:23

Spoken word once it is spoken stays spoken It's gone. I Wish I hadn't said that I wish

01:12:31

I had well, sometimes they can forgive but you know humans don't forget We don't forget and somewhere down the line in the heat of an argument.

01:12:40

Yeah, I'll tell you what and it springs out again It springs out again. So let me give you four steps that kind of helped me in Not becoming too deeply involved and you're gonna have to get involved and this will be on our test

01:12:57

Focus your attention on the counseling process Keep your attention on the process not necessarily the person

01:13:05

Now that can only be done if you concentrate on that therapeutic process while they are talking to you

01:13:12

Ask yourself questions quietly within your own mind Why is he saying this to me?

01:13:19

Is he accepting responsibility for himself concerning this problem? Is he trying to put this responsibility on someone else?

01:13:26

Ask yourself questions Related to what they're saying to you and your attention will be on the process

01:13:33

Not the person and it keeps you from coming involved with that person to the point that you can't look at what they're really saying so focus the attention on the counseling process and in secondly

01:13:46

Sometimes we feel like that this problem is new to this individual But we need to recognize and realize that a person's unfortunate situation is not unfamiliar to them

01:13:57

They are familiar with what's going on. I Mean, you know in all probability that problem has developed over a period of time

01:14:05

It's taken it a while. It's just now showing up, but that problem has been there for a while No one walks into the office and says

01:14:12

I've got a problem and it just started five minutes ago No one does that problem will go back and it'll have roots and tentacles on it

01:14:21

That go way all and may go any number of directions And so we need to know that that person has gradually become what they are

01:14:29

They have gradually become what they are. They have probably built up a condition

01:14:35

Through the years so that that condition does not shock them. They've probably been dealing with it for quite a while They may not have been dealing with it well

01:14:43

But they've been confronting it for a little while the time they get to you and me as Christian people So we realize that their situation is not unfamiliar to them.

01:14:52

And then thirdly we realize that Objectivity is seldom achieved through too close of an identification if you say

01:15:02

I identify with you on that Yes, but if we too closely identify with them, then we're not going to achieve objectivity

01:15:08

We're going to make a decision based upon our emotional attitude Towards that person or an emotional intellectualism rather than a rational or thinking

01:15:19

Intellectualism we want to base a decision on God's Word and God's biblical principles But we want to have thought that decision out.

01:15:26

We don't want to make a decision based upon what we feel Well, I feel like you all do this that oh

01:15:33

No, no. No, they need something more substantial than that because my feelings can fool me Our feelings can fool me

01:15:39

We don't want to be too subjective and only a person who remains a healthy distance from an individual when they're talking with them

01:15:46

Only that individual can discern in a true perspective Objectively what the problem really is.

01:15:54

We have to keep a healthy distance from them Now you can be friendly with a person and you can respond to a person and still keep a healthy distance from them and that problem

01:16:04

You don't have to you know and one thing of course we always say and I don't know that I'll say it in Anywhere else in here.

01:16:10

So I'll just put it here. Number one is when you're counseling with someone you never touch them Do not put your hands on them male or female.

01:16:19

You just don't You just keep that distance from them. Keep that distance from them.

01:16:25

Don't put your hands on them don't let them put their hands on you just keep remote you can be friendly towards them and Yes, don't become in love if you weep and You start weeping amongst them and it does not matter who they are

01:16:40

I will promise you you're gonna hurt that counseling process, even though your heart may break for them But if you open it, they are looking for someone who has guidance and strength

01:16:51

They don't need someone who's gonna break down in front of them now you may leave after they're gone and they've been many times that I have just wept as I've dealt something because I I just couldn't bring them out of it at that point and There are times when you weep at other times for people

01:17:06

But if you do it in front of them and there have been many times you will catch yourself With tears coming up in your eyes from what they tell you it just hurts your heart what they say to you

01:17:15

But yet you have to control that situation and you let them see that God is able to give strength within that weakness

01:17:22

Because if you just completely collapse on them and you start having my oh, yes and both of you stand there

01:17:28

You'll spend 15 20 minutes weeping and then you got to get you compose and then it's all shot You said well, that's a little calloused and it's a little cold.

01:17:35

No No, no, no Read the life of the Apostles read the life of the

01:17:42

Lord and we'll see that this was done time and time again And then of course it is not the fourth one in the order.

01:17:50

It is extremely important commit that problem to the Lord Commit that problem to the

01:17:56

Lord pray about that problem. Of course, he knows and obviously he understands everything

01:18:03

But and I am so guilty of this if the counselor is worrying about that problem that this person has

01:18:10

Then it is obvious that that person who's trying to help the individual is not trusting the Lord to solve that problem

01:18:17

As our brothers already told us his brother Harold has said on more than one occasion Worrying and I'm the world's greatest at trying to worry about somebody else's problem.

01:18:27

We're in doesn't solve the problem. He just adds they got one and now I got one and It just if we trust the

01:18:35

Lord He will meet the needs of that counselee and we can pray for them and we say Lord Work through my life to help this person

01:18:42

God give me discernment to see what this person is really saying Lord I commit John Doe's problem to you, and I know that you're working at God Will you help

01:18:51

John Doe to have clear light help John Doe to see? What I'm trying to say and God help them to see spiritual light and spiritual truth and when

01:19:00

I share the scripture with John Doe Lord would you bind the enemy to the point where the light of the gospel can shine through and God will begin to move now.

01:19:10

What is the dangers? Involved what are the dangers? There is one major danger. There are many dangers

01:19:17

But one major danger that I like to mention and have to mention in becoming too deeply involved with a person

01:19:23

It's a very strange Phenomena, but if you understand demonic powers and if you understand spiritual warfare a person can readily see how it can happen

01:19:32

It is very interesting that the council can develop identically the same problem as the counselee It is utterly fantastic and amazing

01:19:42

If a person gets too deeply involved they themselves Objectivity of course is readily lost by the counselor

01:19:48

They no longer look at it objectively and they actually have become ill to use that word generally speaking with the same

01:19:55

Difficulty that the person who came to them I've had people after people after people

01:20:00

I have letter after letter after letter Filed or full of letters of people who written said you know

01:20:06

I was out Let me give you one example, and it's in spiritual warfare, but it applies here

01:20:12

There was a lady in Arlington, Texas Who was involved in some just very minor in some occult to hers minor in occultic matters?

01:20:23

And she met a Christian young married lady and this girl began to try to guide her out of that to the

01:20:31

Lord and she had another friend who was a prayer partner and Bible study or with her and they were buddies and so she brought her into the process and both of them

01:20:40

Began to work with this girl well one day they called me and my wife knows them both and and we have known them for several years and This one girl said you know

01:20:53

I need to talk to you And I said one the other girls on another extension said you know this girl We were talking to you about and somebody yes.

01:20:58

Yes, so well. She's going to the hospital I said what's the matter said well. She is going to have an emergency hysterectomy

01:21:05

And I said oh She said yes, I said well Is that what doctor concluded has she gone get another opinion etc.

01:21:12

Etc. And she said no She said but we won't talk to you about she says you know we began to have difficulties

01:21:18

And I've gone to my doctor, and he says I've got to have an emergency hysterectomy. I am a hemorrhaging

01:21:25

And I said oh and the other pipes up on the other and said and me too And I said well you obviously know what's happening.

01:21:33

You know what's happening and They said well what we are so they had just kind of got in there I said we gave him the spiritual declarations and the prayer truths to use and they began to do that neither one of them's had a

01:21:43

Hysterectomy and I said if you can get this girl to us quickly then we can probably help her stay from surgery

01:21:48

Maybe it is a medical problem, but it might not be It might not be just maybe the enemy Well the girl went on had hers, but the other two they still have never had one.

01:21:57

It's been four or five years I'm give you all kinds of instance like that and so can other people who involve themselves in this

01:22:04

But it's extremely possible when you deal with person in the major worse depression self -pity tension the intermediate difference

01:22:10

What it is we can get that working in our life simply because of soul power or psychic energy

01:22:15

That comes from that individual and also the display of demonic powers They are everywhere dear people and they flit around us everywhere.

01:22:22

You can go nowhere that there aren't demonic powers Well brother rocky what we'll do is we'll just put the church under the blood you can't

01:22:33

Not if they're lost people here you can't You know and a Christians already on the blood so you can't put them on either

01:22:40

Now you see these little things we throw and it's a matter of realization And so what I'm saying to you is we have to be very careful that we remain remote and remember that we're depending upon God We're depending upon Jesus Christ and we're depending upon the

01:22:54

Holy Spirit of God To help us deal with this individual and we're not trying to convey to them anything from mentality our intellectualism

01:23:01

We don't want to take that problem and make it ours and take it home before long It's involved in our home and it's in our own life

01:23:08

So this is one of the great dangers of that our judgment becomes colored by our emotional feelings and then that counselee begins to sense this instability in the one who's trying to help them and Then they'll move away from you or you'll not be able to help them at all

01:23:24

And what they need to do is attain a steadiness in their life They've got to have a poise in their life and they've got to have this stability in their life

01:23:32

Now if you confront a problem to keep them getting further involved in it, we have to be very very careful

01:23:40

People will even try to get you to give them medical advice I've had people come and I'm thinking of a young boy

01:23:48

He was seven years of age and his mom said he's on Thorazine He's considered hyperactive by the doctors and Thorazine is the only thing that will slow this kid down He goes crazy all the time.

01:23:59

I mean he just runs and you can't slow him down So we set them up on a pattern of praying of how to pray and we'll cover that tomorrow on how to pray for this kid and just some patterns of praying in the kids presence and how to pray for him as parents and They begin to pray for this boy.

01:24:16

We said well, he's getting better. Should I take him off Thorazine? I said I can't tell you take him off of Thorazine.

01:24:23

I'm not a medical doctor go talk to your doctor and So it's taken to the doctor and doctors checked him out so he doesn't need anymore what's happened

01:24:32

He can understand it. Now. There are all kinds of those. Those are the easy ones Those are the easy ones but people will ask you people ask you for legal advice

01:24:41

Do we not understand that we can actually be sued if we give someone legal advice? Can give legal advice.

01:24:48

We're not a practicing attorney. It's like in many places It's against the law to give legal advice and if he gets into a court, they say well he told me