Hussein Wario, Great Calls, and an Englishman Stuck in Oz

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James wife And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon here in sunny,

Phoenix, Arizona where on Saturday We are gonna have to break out our winter clothing

Because let's see Saturday will be the 12th of June the predicted high is 92 degrees

Warming I Was here June 26th 1990 when it was 30 degrees warmer than that.

Yep, 30 degrees 122 degrees in the shade not 92

And that was that was 20 years ago. How could it be so much hotter?

Well, I know I know weather is not climate. I'm just I'm just Yeah, anyway

Today on the dividing line. I I have some things queued up for later on I don't know how long this is gonna take but over the the past couple of Well weeks.

I'm not sure how many months There have been a lot of critics of my actions in bringing to public attention the issues surrounding

Islamic apologetics and Integrity therein and so on and so forth and I Forget when the call was

I should have looked it up But we received a call a number of weeks ago from Hussein Wario who himself is a former

Muslim from what I understand converted when he was in about eighth grade or something like that and is living here in the

United States now and We had a discussion about some things as I recall it had to do with using a

Restroom as a place for Muslim prayers Well since then, mr.

Wario's had a lot to say In regards to some of my statements and So he's been kind enough to call in today and Let's make sure that we've got a good connection here.

And let's talk with Hussein. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Okay, good.

Excellent. Well, thank you for calling in I know you don't have a whole lot of time you had indicated that you had a birthday party to go to In a little while, so I'll get right to some of the things you said here after the

June 6th Dividing line actually, there was no June 6th dividing line, but on on June 6th,

I guess is what this was You made the statement on the web that you can prove that I made at least 20 %

Contradictions in my recent DL webcast. Does that make him less Christian?

And I was sort of wondering Even my my worst opponents grant me a little better than 80 % accuracy

Could you explain what you're referring to there? Well, first of all, like I said before I'm not gonna be here to talk about either of the kind of brothers because that is irrelevant and as a reformed

Christian I'm very concerned about how you run your ministry and and how far you go with it.

And I was going to in fact write a blog entry on that 20 % I was talking about but I haven't come to that Right.

The reason why I'm calling is just because there are a few concerns that I have It's only probably like one two, three four of them and I've only been listening to dividing line for probably for less than two months and I've already found like four things in here.

I already raised questions, you know about I Couldn't say about your integrity or it could be just about how you do things

Especially with people that you don't agree with so maybe we can just go to that because I guess you're not gonna answer any of Accusations you've made them.

Hey, this is four out of how many dividing lines you have done or how many interviews you have given?

This will be enough to equate to about 20 % of of what you have done. You know, it's like less than two months okay, so the

The entire list of things that I had here you you don't want to talk about them You want to talk about your points?

Is that no? When I made that statement I was going to do a blog entry on you and I have talked to other

Christians and they told me that There is no place for it other reformed Christians. I've told me

This is not about I'm not going after you. Okay? I just don't like it the way you just go about talking about other

Christian You hardly know them some of them. Thank you. You wrote something about me who you did write about me

Of course you you've been raising a lot of questions and I have had to point out that some of your arguing is

Not rational, but well you put me in the same line as I may do that, you know, no,

I didn't know I didn't No, I never said that word

I say I remind you of Ahmadita Oh my your blog entry didn't do that. No, it didn't and facts are this morning

You said that I shouldn't have made parody videos about Eric in Canada. I've never made a parody video So sometimes I don't

I'm not even certain if you're Completely aware of what you're looking at. Oh, you know what some of the

Arabic stuff you have done now Muslims are after it yeah, I'm if you can be after a

Christian who's not a former Muslim a missing one one phrase in Quoting from memory sir, don't fatiha and think that that's relevant to everything else we said

Yeah, that's that's a good example of exactly what I'm what I'm talking about here. But but wait a minute Where have

I ever made a parody video of Eric in Canada? Can you tell me that? Okay, you know what? You are all

I can just say is this the way you are making part of it Arabic the way you have this Arabic tutor And that is like totally out of line.

Like how much have you pointed out about this brother? It's almost like you're not giving grace, okay, okay

Hussein We responded to his claims we played them and there was and and and many people commented on the fact that we were very fair and in fact

Inserted all sorts of other discussions about other things. In fact, I bent over backwards to say well, you know

Maybe you could possibly look at this way still doesn't make it Arabic, but I bent over backwards

I just I cannot even begin to comprehend Why it is that we we have all this data that demonstrates that Ergin canner has lied about his past and lied about what he is and if anyone points that out somehow they're wrong rather than the person who has stood behind a pulpit and Connected this stuff to the presentation of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I don't understand that. I Don't understand your way of thinking Hussein. I really don't

I mean I don't understand you as either because here you are. I mean the Christian Today reporter called you know on that on April 22nd

He called you up and you discussed it on dividing line. Uh -huh, and you praised Kennedy, okay,

John Kennedy Praise John Kennedy, you did praise him. You say the guy is that X?

Oh, you mean I mean you mean he said he had done his he had demonstrated. He had actually read some stuff

Yeah, I did say that he clearly had read Article that's not praising that's just giving factual

But but once the article came out and it didn't make your satisfaction as a minister of the gospel

You kind of went ahead and started equating his journalism to I don't know what kind of journalism, you know

You mean when I point out that it did not exactly Deal with all the issues somehow.

There's a contradiction there Well, there is I can say that there that there can be a problem because like here you are you speculated that saying that?

Liberty University Must be like the main Advertiser of Christianity today.

That's why maybe they didn't get to the bottom of the matter like that's a possibility Yeah, but I cannot expect that from a minister to say that why why would a minister be so naive is to not recognize

The Christianity Today is a is a profit driven organization. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you are you are minister of the gospel

Yeah, I am and I'm that doesn't mean I'm naive No, but why would you even make that kind of a statement because it's a factual statement follow the money

Hussein Follow the money. It's just a factual statement. Oh my word ministers do not become naive, sir

No, no, but you yeah, you are you're talking publicly about this organization You don't even know how much of Liberty University how much liberty advertised on Christianity Today and you're talking as if You know, you have many so I raised so I raised the possibility that the reason that it didn't go into the depth of the way it did was because Something a lot of other people had noticed and you somehow think that's wrong.

Okay, fine I will leave that to the audience to determine whether that's just simply being naive Or if it's something wrong as you said, but you're you're reasoning in your argumentation.

For example, you have you have argued That you have debunked

Turretin fans hadith listing I'd like to ask you since since you're a former

Muslim. Could you could you tell me? Please could you explain to me hadith 2982

You know what if it is mentioned in the body of the of the writing whatever it is about I can say

I did 28 whatever you say 982. Could you tell me what it says? I Cannot tell you off and I have to look for it.

Okay, and how would you find it? I don't have to look at what my hadith books Um, you had it 957 it didn't take me that long to find it

Hussein Hussein you and I both know That there's no way you can find

Hadith 2982 because there's a piece of information Missing you and I both know that yeah, but you took the way you're not justified either for you to just say that There is just one way to quote the hadith if a

Muslim didn't even make that an issue You are like who's saying like a whole saying who's saying you could not find hadith 2982 could you anyway, could you know

I have to look in the book You still couldn't find it because it's not giving you enough information

To know what I'm referring to, you know, that's why it cannot find it

If he doesn't have the hadith books, okay I have the hadith books, sir, but you know, and I know that there are different collections of hadith books and therefore

You need to know what the collection is. Don't you? Hey, it is mentioned in the body.

I can find You just the whole time you're no, sir. You couldn't no, sir. You know, it's

Sir, there's more than one hadith 2982 because there are different collections.

I see what you're doing here. See what you're doing here See you have not debunked the problem there.

I have debunked a problem Okay, then answer the question quote to me who's a quote to me hadith 2982 who's saying if you can't do it

Yeah, you are not Answering my question. Honestly, I am a former Muslim.

I'm supposed to be memorizing Bible verses Okay, you cannot be asking me on I'm not asking you to quote it

I'm simply pointing out to you. Who's saying you could not find a reference

There you go folks folks, there you go, there is the illustration

One one side has the facts and the argument and one side is just not gonna answer the question

Yeah, but you are never wrong. The Muslims are telling you you messed up a chapter from the Quran. No, sir

No, sir. I did not Hey my Issam in Quoting from memory as a

Christian as an illustration of how this flows through the Syrian culture missed one

Phrase and this is relevant I'm not making that an issue though what I'm making an issue is and the

Muslims have a problem with you is That the way that chapter appears you should have corrected your tutor and you did not correct him

You know Okay, you know what I will gladly let the listening audience compare

What you just brought up with the fact that I have demonstrated that you that quoting

Hadith 2982 or 957 is the same thing as saying Bible 316.

It's gibberish. You know it and I know it And the people listening know that who's saying right?

I know this is all about you. That's why I have a problem It's all about me Yeah, it's like you are after these brothers and it's all about making a name for yourself.

Oh, yeah That's that's that's what it's all about That's that's that's why

I somehow forced Ergin canner to falsely claim to have debated Shabir Ali. Oh my word. Look at this

I mean you say to the Associated Press. That's why people are taking you seriously. You just say to them, you know They are the ones that are bragging about this and you're the one who actually does it.

I mean, yeah That's true What does that say? It says that the next time that I debate

Shabir Ali I will be able to look him in the eye and say that I have sought to be consistent as a

Christian in answering Islam and in exposing those who are dishonest in what they say about Islam And how they go about the ministry and that's something that's absolutely necessary to do

Yeah, but it did the only way to really reach out to these people I'm Again, how does that flow from what

I just said? Where did I just say the only way to reach out these people is via debate?

Where did I say that? You are talking about integrity. I mean you're talking about integrity in in the way to Debating Muslims and stuff, but for me,

I just don't get it I mean, I just see a lot of you into all these and sometimes you even well, sir

I'm sorry, but you're wrong about that. You don't know my heart. You don't know my heart And you're simply wrong that's not the case.

I would love to have avoided this entire mess, but there's something called Integrity, sir.

There's something called standing up for what's right when someone stands before an audience and makes up his entire

No, thankfully, there are others who likewise have recognized that there's a real problem here

But who are others out there Muslim scholars who are Christian? Scholars Islamic scholars who are what

I don't have followers. First of all, sir, so I really don't appreciate that kind of language

But the fact the matter is most people don't even know About what's going on with with Eric and canner?

the news is gonna get out if the right things are not done and Repentance and confession does not take place

But I think even that's too late now as far as the the information getting out but the fact the matter is that that for you to accuse me of Wanting to use this to get my name out there.

It's just so Amazingly absurd that it's and I can just simply tell you it's it's it's ridiculous

To you, but that's how it looks to me. Okay. Well, but I think for some reason you seem to be incredibly biased about this issue

Hey, is it why is it? Why is it? I mean, do you have any evidence that Eric and canner lived in Turkey and was trained as a jihadist?

Hey, you you have no idea what happened in a madrasa. Okay. Do you have any evidence?

Okay, you can't say that paper show that he went to Madrasa, okay, so let me ask so let me ask you a simple question

How do you explain Hussein? How it is that the same time arrogant canner is standing in front of audiences and television cameras?

Claiming to have lived in Turkey until 1978 or 1979 That he's telling

AP reporters and Turkish reporters that he moved the United States in 1969

How do you explain that? Hey, listen that that Turkish reporter guy. I have things from this translator for me by a

Turkish lawyer Okay, I don't think that was a direct interview. Okay, how about AP then? Okay.

Okay. What I can just say is I mean I think I can answer his question. So you're not gonna answer the question.

Why am I going to answer for him? The problem I have is you dismiss him You say that he's a fake ex -devout

Muslim and you don't have any evidence to prove that I have tons of evidence You just ignore it

You don't know this guy. You did not know this guy. Okay Yeah, so if the only evidence you can have is that I had to know him back then well

Then no one has any evidence of anything and we can't talk about history. This is where we have a problem He went to Madrasa.

I gave an example of a three -year -old. I have a link from my blog who was asked question on TV About some aspects of Islam.

Okay, I didn't improve with Prophet Muhammad say, you know, when when a kid is seven -year -old Seven -year -old they have to be instructed when they attend if they don't follow things, especially

Salah and all that They have to be You know spanked and stuff. He did talk about that Prophet Muhammad So that court documents clearly showed that they went to Madrasa I don't know for how long they went if I go about and say they were never devout.

I Am lying because you don't even know what transpires in Madrasa I don't know what your

Muslim friends tell you they have an ulterior motive They can tell you whatever you probably want to hear or whatever would will try to make the agenda, you know

I mean So because of that, maybe you need to make some apologies to these brothers for some of the things you have said, which are not true

Okay. Well Hussein, thank you very much. I think you've Even though we didn't get into the and all the questions and things.

I wanted to ask you I think we've we've we've made the point pretty pretty clearly. Oh, but one other one.

I think I'm sorry. Um You you did take a few shots

At my church in your in your tweets. Could you explain on what basis? I mean given that you say

That I can't say anything about the Cantor's situation because I wasn't there. Have you ever been to my church? Okay, all right

I asked Josh about your church and He told me a little bit about it.

I Mean one of the guys on Twitter. He doesn't even I don't know his last name, but he goes by razor kiss

Yes, uh -huh, it seemed like all the reformed people out there they go by pseudonyms and some of them don't even reveal who they're anyway

The problem I have with you is because in my church our pastor

He has a consistory. Okay. I mean the consistory of the church kind of They kind of like keep an eye on what the pastor does and stuff and the pastor has a lot of work to do

And it seemed like you are a minister Oh a pastor an elder. I'm one of the elders That's right.

You have a lot of time at hand to blog about other people. How do you have been a member of? Which is a reformed church.

They probably would have told you to stop doing that. So Hussain You know, I'm doing two debates next weekend with Muslims.

Do you think I'm gonna be prepared for those? I don't know. You're probably debating about the same issue.

You did both all the time So when I debated Robert Price, which required hundreds of hours of preparation

Did I did I show up unprepared? I don't know. You don't know Thanks for calling the same appreciate thank you.

You have fun at the at the birthday party there. There you go. All right Okay.

Well, I Had said Earlier that I just felt like there is a massive cultural gap

I said that a couple weeks ago and Hussain took Umbrage at that too, but I think we just saw that and I just leave that to everybody else by the way

For those that are interested Hussein Hussein Hadith 2982.

I was referring to the Hadith compilation of Jamiat Termite and It's an important one actually 2982 is a

Text where Aisha Provides evidence of a textual variant in the transmission of the

Quran But there is no way That he ever could have identified that if I simply said

Hadith 2982 because you see There are multiple Hadith collections. You have to say

Jamiat Termite, Sahih al -Bukhari, Sahih al -Muslim there's a number of collections and the point is that in their published works

Ergon and Ymir Kanner have frequently Simply put

Hadith and then a number You can't find them and Hussein knows it and we all listened to him

Avoid admitting that the question I was asking him was not answerable

Given the fact that I was not citing it correctly and anyone who has to look up Hadith sayings

Which is what happens when you actually interact with Muslims with any regularity would know that And Hussein knows that and the fact that he would not

You know admit that is to me quite troubling But there you go

Someone in channel just said is Bukhari available online in English by chance. Yes, it is Bukhari Muslim, they're all available online in English and you can track them down and feel free to do so.

All right Let's go ahead and go to Alan in Baltimore, Maryland.

Hi Alan. How are you? Doing good good. Well, first of all,

I'm gonna beat you with that to the exchange. I really want to commend you for your just your

Example of Christian maturity, I'm sitting there thinking man. I was just hanging up on that guy I can't well, I will be perfectly honest with you.

I the thought crossed my mind I'm I'm frustrated today. I'll be I'll admit that I have read so much today from people that are just Completely disconnected from what the real issues are that that I am somewhat on the frustrated side so I will apologize that for that ahead of time and I I Just shake my head sometimes.

But anyways, that's not what your question is about. Maybe we can we can go on with something

Someone has it in their control to end this whole thing, but it doesn't look like he's gonna be doing that so Anyway I've got a question about a

Mormon apologist I don't know if you know this individual or not If not, then that's fine But if you if you do

I just wonder if I could get opinion on his ministry I Sean McCraney was part of the matter at the

TV show Out of Utah. He was an ex -Mormon for 40 years.

Hopefully Okay, you confuse me he is currently a

Mormon he used to the moment for oh, okay, so he's a so he's a Oh, okay. Okay.

Okay. I I was confused. I thought you're talking about him a current Mormon apologist Okay, so my mind was he was a

Mormon and now he's a born -again believer Show contrasting biblical Christianity with Mormonism.

I just wondering if you knew anything about his ministry, but I haven't seen I haven't seen the program I'd be interested in it

Unfortunately, I can't give you he hasn't let us put this way I haven't spoken to any of the same conferences He was speaking at and I haven't seen a book or something like that But I'd be if you have some information if you drop it by the website

I'd be interested if I could see some online stuff that would that would be that'd be good. I other than that I'm afraid

I'm not gonna help you out very much Okay, that's fine. I did have a second question and if you have time, yeah, go ahead

The second was totally unrelated to that. But um, I'm Reformed in my understanding of salvation but I've been curious for somebody who believes that you can lose your salvation.

Um, I Struggled with wondering whether that person could truly be saved not that I'm trying to judge them

But just because I'm concerned about whether I should I guess You know be giving them the gospel how

I should how I should be looking at well Let's let's remember. We've got to be very careful There is you can easily make the argument that a person who does not see the

God -centered Ness The the Christ centered Ness of of the gospel the fact that God is glorifying himself

The Christ does not fail as a savior. We look at those and those are so beautiful. Those are so obvious That it strikes us that how could how could someone not see that but at the same time?

We need to recognize that there are people who have been raised with unbiblical traditions and All they've ever really considered in the subject are texts like Hebrews 6 or or even

Matthew 7 and James 2 and and things like that so few people in so few churches are pressed to be consistent in what they believe

I've I'm not sure if you've heard me use the the chicken coop illustration before but so many people

Take what they believe about God and they put it in one little spot And then they take what they believe about Jesus and put over here and about salvation down here in the

Bible down here in the church Over there and they they never let those things get overly close to one another so close that you'd be begin to see inconsistencies and So much of evangelicalism is actually designed in its sermon and sermonizing to not make people uncomfortable by pressing them toward consistency that they can go through those churches and believe on the one hand

That God's grace alone saves and believe on the other hand that Jesus can fail as a savior and they that no one has ever

Pushed them to see that those two things do not fit together So we have to differentiate between the people who have just never even thought about it and when they are forced to think about it can be made very uncomfortable by it and The people who having thought about it reject part of the biblical truth

That's that's where the major difference is and so while you can look at a consistent

Arminian position and Say man, you you would eventually have to fundamentally deny sola fide or something along these lines to really really be consistent here

We have to realize the vast majority of people have never been put in that position In fact, if my life is indication, they don't like it at all when someone forces them to think about such things

And and so that's where you have to be very very careful It's great to press toward that consistency, but you can't assume that people who don't haven't been pushed to do that Are necessarily denying an element of the truth.

They just may not even realize that that they're confessing one element of truth It's contradictory to another element of the truth

How about contrasting I guess if you will the Joe blow in the pew With those people who have studied it and have looked at it and I think still refuse

To do you know me almost like the of John six when when Jesus basically tells them flat -out

You know You know, no one can come to me unless the father

You know draws them to me I let you know father granted to them and the reaction of the crowd is they're like, whoa

This is too much for us, right and they walk away and they walk away, right now Of course, they're in the presence of the very incarnate

Son of God It's a little bit different than the situation we're facing with some of these folks. But yeah It first of all, it's really not up to us to make those decisions, but I would make a strong distinction between the person

Who is ignorant about a contradiction or theology and someone who professes a contradiction in theology that results in a denial of important elements of biblical truth, so, you know,

I strongly counsel people to Avoid making the the connections

That put you in a position of judgment But at the same time to press for biblical consistency and and the whole counsel of God on all those things and it's a it's a balancing act

To remember that outside of the grace of God, we wouldn't have gotten through For some people it's extremely troubling to finally see yourself as God sees you and to see

God as the word reveals him I mean for us that's a precious thing. But for a lot of folks, it's a it's a real struggle and Yeah Exactly, so but it was

God's grace that brought you to that point in the first place and and and we have to be careful that we don't make that it that Transition the same thing as our salvation because I was a

I was truly a redeemed believer Before I came to understand all this that the hyper the hyper

Calvinist is a person who says Unless you got all five points crossed off on your list There's no way you can be redeemed and that's where I really need to be really careful about the perfectionists out there at that point

So alrighty, right? Thank you very much. Okay. Thanks Alan. Thanks for your call today. All right

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. I guess we'll just go ahead and keep on trundling along here though Don't need to Let poor rich.

Come on, by the way, we do have Skype available at dividing dotline even though Rich is not here today

The man we identify as the rookie is getting more it's getting more experience and so far has not made any rookie errors

You've a little bit like the did you see that that new pitcher that debuted a couple days ago?

He's supposed to be just the hottest thing in the major leagues and he had his his debut Pitching game just a couple days ago struck out 14 batters

This kid this kids like 22 years old and he struck out 14 batters pitch seven innings So, is that what you're trying to do today?

We're gonna try to get through this whole thing. Perfectly. I just jinxed you in a moment, I'm gonna start saying like max headroom and A baseball game is gonna appear on the on the feed because the rookies gonna anyway

All right, let's continue on then anyways and let's talk with Ken up in You know

Ken when we used to go up to Utah on missions trips When we crossed the

Arizona, Utah border, we even stopped a couple times took a picture of the Utah sign But we would also always say is we were now entering into a foreign mission field every time we went to Utah So just I let you know that well, and I have to go to language school

Yes, you do. It's a cultural language though. It really is Absolutely. Well, and it's a joy to speak to you and as a foreign missionary it is a lifeline

Listen to the dividing line. Well good good. Excellent. Did you know the do you know the fellow that?

the previous caller was just asking about I Didn't catch the whole. Okay. He was asking about a a former

Mormon has a television program comes out of Utah I didn't know if you're up there. Maybe you were familiar with it If it's what

I think it is, yes. Oh, there are a couple of prominent Characters. Oh, okay

All righty, but that wasn't what your question was about actually so No, I'm dealing with a couple of issues that At their core is what

I think is a moderate King James only perspective, okay, and the

Basically the way it was articulated was There's no such thing as an inspired lexicon.

We want to let the Holy Spirit define his own terms That leads into basically a study of every occurrence of a word and that's led to couple of interpretations that kind of put me on the on the low ground because you know, they've been in typical

King James fashion they've Sort of assumed the high ground that they're speaking for the

Holy Spirit But how would you respond to the idea? There's no such thing as inspired lexicon.

Well That's true There's no question about that. I mean the current standard lexicon

Bauer Donker Arndt and Gingrich Which used to be Bauer Arndt Gingrich and Donker and so on and so forth

I can demonstrate that even between the second and third editions of That particular lexicon, which is the standard scholarly lexicon.

There have been changes that are politically motivated. So you do have to Be aware of Influences and of course, especially in Old Testament lexicography every decade brings further light as archaeological

Discoveries allow us to learn more and more about cognate languages around Hebrew For example flora and fauna terms in the

Old Testament have always been very you know what is the Rock Badger, you know and Stuff like that in the

Old Testament and Really 200 300 years ago there was stuff we were just guessing at that we now have a significantly better idea of because we have you know,

Ugaritic texts are being translated and things like that Which are which are cognate languages and they there are terms and roots that we can have more light shed on and things like that So there's all that kind of stuff, which

I think is is important But I don't know what that has to do with Then saying well, we don't we don't look at lexicons

We somehow just study the word in the Bible because if you're studying the word in any translation

You're still dealing with somebody else's having looked up the word in a lexicon. I mean

What what what are they using Strong's exhaustive concordance? Are they only using the King James?

What's going on? Well, it's in this particular case, it's an inductive study and They're pulling

The the word based on how it's used in a number of contexts and then applying that kind of ignoring immediate context

Semantic domain. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I guess what I'm really driving at is how do

I is there a way to articulate? Yeah Expose what they're doing.

Yeah, I think there is as taking out taking us away from the objective. Yeah, I think there is

What you what you have to what you have to do with somebody is basically say look That there is a form of study that that in essence

Creates a Holy Spirit language And and it says well, you know

Since the term was used this way over here and it's used this way over here Then we can read this in this over here.

The problem is that let's let's let's use a text Okay, let's use

Hebrews chapter it will make this relevant to you living in Utah. How's that? Well, we'll try to kill a couple birds with one stone here

There is a Greek term in Hebrews chapter 7, I believe it's verse 24

That says that Jesus holds his priesthood aporobiton aporobiton now

When when the writer to the Hebrews wrote that particular word

He expected his audience to whom he was writing To understand the word because he was making an argument to them

He was making a specific argument about the nature of Christ priesthood Since he does not pass his priesthood on to someone else.

He alone holds that priesthood He is able to save forever those who draw nigh unto

God by him seeing ever he ever lives to make an accession for them So this is relevant Aporobiton I learned that term back in in college because I was dealing with the

Mormons and their whole priesthood concept and the reality is The Jesus doesn't share the

Melchizedek priesthood with every little 19 year old guy driving along on a bicycle He holds that priesthood without successor he doesn't pass it on to somebody else that's the whole point

He's the only high priest we need we don't need the Mormon priesthood and its claims for the

Melchizedek priesthood and things like that. But the point is that since the writer Intended his audience to understand his argument

Then he had to use terms that would have had a particular meaning in that particular

Context that they would have understood and so if they didn't have You know someone's grabbing context from other books that they didn't even possess and Reading that in the meaning then the original authors intentions would be completely lost.

It wouldn't make any sense The price of the people who originally got that letter if they don't have some other letter that Paul wrote someplace else if Paul wrote

Hebrews, we're not assuming that but if someone's Okay, if someone if someone's grabbing a meaning from a from a letter that we can't even show that the original audience would have

Possessed then that would just completely vitiate It would it would eviscerate the argument that the man's making and in essence

It would make that original context of writing those people ugly irrelevant The only thing it becomes relevant is the final canon of Scripture and the final

Bible But in essence it makes the writers concerns about the the Hebrew Christians It makes the concerns that Paul has for the

Corinthians or the John has in writing the Revelation It makes all that a sham all that all that was irrelevant because we really couldn't have understood that single book as a book and That's the problem with that type of approach is that you're you're not allowing those original context to stand

Excellent, so that's where I would go is say how does your approach answer? how

And in fact what you might want to do is use something like first Thessalonians the earliest of Paul's epistles

If we take that as the first one and say find a term in there that he uses in later

Epistles and say now if you take what you found in later epistle and read it back into this How could the

Thessalonians have understood what Paul was saying? It has to be definable within the context. It was used That's normal human language and these documents were written to communicate something in normal human language.

That's the whole point Well, and when you put it that way that that does seem to run against the flow of progressive revelation even

Well in what way what do you I want to make sure I understand what you're saying there. I mean there are given oh

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Sure. It does. Yeah, because it's their arguments are envisioning a

Finished canon that allows you to go cherry -picking meanings and reading them from context into context

That completely ignores the fact that this was not only progressive revelation But that there was a time period over which these books were written and there was a context, you know

I've used I've used the illustration of Manuscript p72 when I talk about the reliability of text in New Testament.

I Project a page which is the end of second Peter and I'm sorry end of first period beginning of second

Peter I tell the story about how I saw it back in 1993 up in Denver and stuff like that and give a little background but I point out that probably

What you had here was someone who is you know went into a Christian congregation. Maybe they were traveling

Maybe he was a soldier a business person, whatever went into Christian congregation Here's someone reading from this and says

I've never heard that before. What is that? Well, those are Peter's epistles Could I copy that and take it back to my fellowship because we don't have that So there was even a time period

Where and this is reflected for example, the book of Revelation it had to fight for canonicity and and it

We have far fewer manuscripts of Revelation because of the fight that it had to go through There was a process that took time and that whole viewpoint that they're presenting

Just wouldn't work for any Christians at that at that time period they could not have done with those later groups

What we can do, you know later with completed canon and so it really makes you sort of go Yeah, well those ancient folks

God really wasn't overly concerned about them. Anyways He didn't really want them to know his truth in my know that that that's not the case

It ignores how we got the scriptures in the first place. So yeah, but let's face it how many people

Most evangelicals don't have a proper understanding of how we got the New Testament They don't they don't see the process not familiar with the time it took to bring it all together

And so, you know as long as they figure that it's always had thumb indexing You know, why not just read one meaning into another text and stuff like that, but that's that's not the way to do exegesis

Right. Alrighty. Thank you very much. And if you're ever in the in the mood to cool off with some green jello, give me a call

Okay, thanks again, all right, thank you very much. All right. Bye -bye Well, Utah is a

Was the last time I was in Utah. Oh Yeah for that conference I did a little while ago and I would like to get you know one of the main reasons

I'd like to get back to Utah is because that's the only place left that has any taco times and Even though it would not fit into my current diet at all

And I would probably get sick if I now ate what I used to eat regularly I probably would not even survive eating a taco time

But the crisp meat burrito at taco time is still one of my favorite things in all of life But I would probably look at it now and go

How many saturated fats how many grams of sodium no way? But that's it was on our trips up to Utah that I I fell in love with the crisp meat burrito at taco time

So I don't want anybody to go to taco time and get a crisp meat burrito just because I mentioned it because I think there is over a thousand thousand milligrams of sodium and Who knows what other things?

Oh, no Did he actually call in? He's probably responding to what

I said on Go ahead bring him up here we have we have an

Englishman, but he's an Englishman currently living in the penal colony. That is known as Australia and so brother

David brother David. How are you today, sir? Hey seagull bait. How are you? Hey seagull bait.

That's I Really well

I have I I've I have my my my mine I think there's

I still think they're saying mine because let me explain this because no one's got any idea why the first of all our brother

David here is one of one of the number of Australians He's living on stress.

I'll call him Australia, but he's an Englishman. He's he's Are you shocking? Can I call you a

Yankee then if you have to because we did win that war, but anyways Who made it possible for me to to go down there last well winter for them?

But summer our time and in fact, if you've seen the picture of me at Macquarie University It was

David here who arranged that so I must thank you for that But it was also David you took that picture.

You are very famous. It was a very very good picture I use it my presentations. I appreciate that but it was

David that took me down to the To a fish -and -chips place if I guess a fairly famous fish -and -chips place

Okay, it's in Sydney and He didn't warn me Quite properly because it was just sort of a stand type thing

There wasn't a place to go in and sit down. So you had to sit down on the on the on the benches You know right next to the water, you know, and then there's boats and stuff like that But what he didn't warn me about were the seagulls because you know,

I saw the seagulls, you know They're making a noise in a racket a big deal So I sit down and I open up my little box of fish and chips and I reach in and I get something

I don't know if it was fish or the chip. I'm not sure which one but it's about 50 % of the way to my mouth when

I realize That my entire field of vision is now taken up with the business end of the bottom of a seagull

Which has right flown up into my face and is seeking to grab the food out of my hand before it gets to my mouth and I rest of them are hovering above like stuka dive bomber.

They are They're coming up behind me Because there's a little wall thing.

They're coming up behind me. I had to spend the entire time Sitting there looking around me before taking any bite and kicking at these things and that's why

I've explained I explained to an audience. I think it was in New York And I may have been did I did not do it here on the dividing line?

I'm not sure but I I've explained that finding Nemo is Actually a historical documentary

Because the seagulls in finding Nemo were based upon the real seagulls in Sydney Who are the most aggressive

Nasty little creatures you'll ever encounter and it was David right here this man right now who exposed me

To that reality, so I appreciate that but I don't think that's why you were calling in You're not calling in calling because You're not calling

You I'm aware that you and some of your listeners are in danger of a particularly pernicious Synergism that I can see happening very very rapidly.

Oh, uh -huh. What and what might that be? Well, I'm sensing that a number of you have turned to the true religion

That is about to be displayed on all your TV screens over the next month That is the the proper football

World Cup by football I mean, I mean where you actually play the ball with your foot your foot. Yes.

Yes. I hey, look Yeah, I yeah now, you know when I was down there. I Watched yes.

I watched Aussie rules football. I Why that's not powerful. I watched rugby I Watched football and I watched the ashes now.

I'm sorry to have now see you Being a transplant you were sort of torn during the ashes.

Were you not? Not at all. Not at all. You were completely for England all in no way shape or okay

All right, you do realize that we have Aussie listeners who will be hunting you down now That's okay.

They can come here if they want. That's fine. That's neutral Bay Anglican Church Right Listen here's the phone number.

Anyway, I go Your your listeners may or may not be aware but on on Sunday Sunday morning

Saturday evening your time There is a small interesting game. There is a World Cup. There is Countries are playing

Yes, the United States and the end and the United Kingdom England, right? That's right

England's not the United Kingdom. I'm sorry. I'm gonna play the United States and I'm just calling I'm aware this first of all

There's a pernicious synergism that some of you have fallen in love with the true game and yet you're supporting the

USA So I'm calling to warn your your readers or listeners about that But secondly, I'm wondering if do I get bragging rights on Monday morning?

Um, if you would like to if you like if you'd like to call back Actually, it would be

Tuesday Actually, it'd be closer to Wednesday for you as the next dividing line because it's

Tuesday here and you're 17 hours ahead of us but Squirrels writing online.

He's going England's going down. The man has no clue Well clue at all. What could you be ugly?

Well, I'll tell you what, let me ask you a question though, David Being the historian that you are

Could you tell us? Yeah, what happened the last time the United States played England in the World Cup in?

The World Cup that was back in 1950 now if some of you are still reliving the Eisenhower years and that's important to you

Then um, you will know that the USA beat England back in 1950 back in the 1950.

How many years ago is that? That's about 60 years ago. It's 60 So what was the last time the

United States beat last time that England beat the United States in the World Cup was when? Ninth six years ago once Okay, let me ask

Okay, let me ask a more a more or serious question then How has the Empire gone in the past 60 years

Better than yours recently made The very use the term

Empire anymore is a bit of a bit of a snicker actually, but A member of a

Facebook group that that's title is called I always wear sunglasses because the

Sun never goes down on the British Empire Hey and so Delusion stick with you 24 7 or just On now you're living in a

Colony, what are you talking about? I'm calling to claim I gain rights. I'm calling to claim bragging rights to let you know.

I will be back Okay, if you want to be back, that's that's great to be perfectly honest with you

David Yeah, I feel badly about this because I did want to be a little more excited about it,

I Enjoyed I can't believe it or not as you know, I enjoyed washing the ashes

Especially when the Australian team captain tried to eat a ball remember that Very high velocity right into his mouth

I I even put the video of that on my blog if I recall correctly But I enjoyed that not so much just because he got nailed but I actually learned what crickets about what the scoring?

Was that's right. I enjoyed that but I'm gonna be perfectly honest with you. I Think it's more than a sport.

It's an art form. I Agree, I actually enjoyed watching it, but I'm gonna have to admit something.

I could not name yeah, a single player on either team and So I'm afraid that I can't really

You know really get into it outside of To be honest with you when

I've thought about this. The only thought across my mind has been Do they have sufficient security?

That's honestly been my concern. I mean it. I mean it. Let's well Al -qaeda has specifically said they wanted to target that game and So to be honest with you enough,

I'm a little bit more concerned about that than anything else. I just hope it's a great game and Everybody gets out alive

To be honest with you And if you want to call up and if England wins now, what are the

I mean, I'm pretty certain they're favored Are they not? Yeah In that game.

Yes. Yes. Yes Do we have any players? who are regulars in The the the high -level leagues that you guys have with man

United and stuff like that Yeah, what if you doing quite a few you say no slouches?

They just um, they're gonna look like couch potatoes when we play them that okay. All right Well, um, you do realize now that you've done this that that better be what happens because Because I have

Address I have your Skype address and if they lose I'm calling you I Look forward to it

James I'm gonna let some of your slightly more serious callers call back Actually, I only have three minutes before we're done.

So it's a it's not a big deal I think most people are are interested in listening else with you.

Well, I was actually I think Well, actually, let's do something serious. You had the opportunity

Month before last to travel over to Perth Right.

Yes You engaged in some debates over there Why don't you just tell everybody what what the debate topics were and how they could track them down?

Sure, I was invited by the City Bible Forum a workplace evangelism organization in Perth in Western Australia to come and lead their mission

I gave three public talks two of which were word talks and one of which was the debate against a professor of psychology from the

University of Western Australia and We debated the topic people should keep their religion to themselves and I had a good time.

It was only an hour long So, um, we were restricted in what we could do But we had a great time and I argued for how much positivity

Chris religion and in particular Christianity had had in Western culture and the chat argued

I'm not quite sure what his argument was He was just worried that if people insisted on religion, it would all go horribly wrong

But um, I think I kind of won and if people are interested the video is on my website

David old david Ould dot net and I might just put that up again

Sticky it up if people are interested in that. Yeah, we had a good time Well now, you know living down there you're living in a very very secularized society

Is that how you would describe Australia very different to the States? Yes, very different to the States and especially Western Australia, which is which is even more prosperous than Eastern Australia and so there's a real

Core mentality are under the surface of don't say anything that would disturb the peace

Yeah, and so that that's how so we can sort of look over there and look over towards sadly

England and Europe and see what's Heading our direction basically and you're right in the middle of it.

So I wonder because I think America is so much more of an actively religious country and so many more churchgoers even

Jim, I think you guys are a long way from that You're in a peculiar situation where you got this high rate of church going and get at the same time

You're right. Yeah, you're seeing some quite extraordinary things happen as well. Oh, yeah Yeah, I think you guys did a little bit more slowly than we did.

But anyways David. Thank you very much for your Skype call We'll see what happens next week And we're excited about crucifixions very excited about that.

Indeed. Thank you very much, sir. All right. God bless. See you Alrighty, yeah, you have to drop the

Skype call over there. There you go I am being told I am being told by the powers that be that I also have to mention that we do have an official

Facebook page now, it is not my Facebook page, which I don't really even do anything with myself but it is the

Alpha and Omega ministries Facebook page and You can go there and actually get discount coupons for Special offers that we have and things like that.

So look for the Alpha and Omega ministries a Facebook page and Now hopefully rich will still like me for a while after having made sure because he's done all the work on that and we do appreciate that Don't necessarily appreciate some of the people who show up Try to vent their spleens.

But other than that, that's I guess is sort of how it how it goes Well, thanks for listening dividing line today.

It was a again multifaceted one to be sure But Lord willing we'll be back on Tuesday of next week

It'll be the only dividing line next week because next Wednesday I head for Detroit and the debates

I'll be on the Paul Edwards program on Friday of next week there in the Detroit area So we'll try to keep you up to date from Detroit debates on Sunday and Monday with Sheikh Muhammad Ahmed a wall be praying for those.

Thanks for listening. God bless Oh We need a new reformation

The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 973 4602 or write us at P.

O box 3 7 1 0 6 Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9 You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org

That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks