June 16, 2017 Show with Josh Buice on “Knowing God: A Biblical Understanding of Discipleship”

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Good.

Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at iron

sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Friday on this 16th

day of June 2017 and I'm delighted to have as a returning guest today one of my

favorite guests Pastor Josh Bice who is senior pastor of Praise Mill

Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, he's a blogger at delivered by grace

.com.

And he's the director of the annual g3 conference Which is having its next

edition.

It's 2018 edition coming up in January and that will be here before you

know it people think of 2018 as being next year, but this is gonna fly by.

Until we are already on a plane train or automobile to get to Georgia

to experience g3 2018 and I'm very excited about being there myself and

manning another exhibitors booth at the g3 conference today.

We're gonna be talking about knowing God a biblical understanding of discipleship, which is actually the theme of

the g3 2018 conference and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens

iron radio pastor Josh Bice.

And.

Pastor Bice just returned from the Southern Baptist Convention in Phoenix

Arizona this year and what was the first thing the number one thing on his agenda.

Immediately when walking through his study door was to be on iron sharpens iron radio.

And we appreciate that after your busy schedule taking the time to do this today pastor Josh.

And why don't before we even go into a brief description of praise mill Baptist and

delivered by grace.

Tell our listeners something about what you experienced at the Southern Baptist Convention in Phoenix,

Arizona.

Yeah, I mean So we are a part of the Southern Baptist Convention I know that there are a lot of people that don't

understand what that means.

But basically it's a large group of churches that partner together for missions and discipleship.

What that means is that we collect money and we use it for church planting for you know

missions evangelistic purposes in North America, but also beyond to the to the

nations and so that along with funding seminaries and

Bible colleges, that's the you might say the foundational Backbone of the Southern

Baptist Convention's purpose.

The convention itself is a voluntary matter.

So we Come to the convention as

chin and all the leaders of the convention have no

Authority over our local church being that it's a very large and diverse group.

There are certain people in certain ministries invention that we

personally as pastors here at praise mill and we as a church would not necessarily applaud

or that we would certainly promote or say that we are pleased about

but there are definitely aspects within the Southern Baptist Convention and groups and ministries and and

certain Leaders and that type of thing that we do partner with and that we do enjoy

Working closely with so we see some things within the SBC that we don't agree with and we see some

things in the SBC that We are certainly so yeah, it's been fun.

We just arrived back about maybe 10 minutes ago 13

people including seven

children by Vehicle across the nation.

So it was quite a trip.

But we did see there were some

red one on the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation just

Just another statement agreed to promote

Reformation the historic Reformation being that this is the 500th anniversary and also

there

again Something that is

BC.

You probably saw it focused on

that the racial shin and all of this but Really

focus on would have been the the one on the Reformation and the one on sub

talking about racism and politics.

Although those things are certainly important.

The main thing that we should focus on should be

the gospel.

Praise God

for that.

I'm gonna ask you a very controversial question.

That's something you just mentioned.

And let me speak for myself first.

I believe first of all, I believe that racism is a damnable sin.

I mean the scriptures are very clear that you cannot love God whom you have not seen

if you do not love your brother.

Who you have seen?

The it was amazing how strong the language That was

used in the New Testament For those who were guilty of racism.

And at that time it was primarily the Jewish people who were holding on to racism against the

Gentiles.

Even though those Jewish people Had known severe harsh

deadly persecution from Gentiles and pagans They were still being held

accountable and being demanded To repent of the sin of racism

whenever it reared its ugly head.

And you even had the Apostle Paul rebuking Peter for this this anti

Gentile stance that he had.

But I am concerned though that there are some today

who are so terrified of being viewed as a racist and.

Are.

So apologetic over the sins of People who lived a

century or more ago that they are bending over backwards

to accommodate the Wishes and sometimes demands of

Those that are more of a liberal bent to acknowledge

People as being bonafide Christian heroes simply because of their their

great place in history and they're being champions of of Racial equality

and things like that which are very noble things I'm not taking away from that.

But when we start using a person's skin as a litmus test for their

biblical orthodoxy, that's no more.

That's no more acceptable than than racism in the reverse of

giving people some kind of credibility in within Christianity because of their being

white or or Whatever race happens to be dominant in the particular country or

region it just it troubles me and I don't know if you share my Apprehension about this

or if you even are familiar with what I'm talking about.

Well, I'm very much familiar with what you're talking about Chris.

I think there are two cautions that I would say to fellow Southern Baptists and that would be That yes

Southern Baptists had some troubling history and we've sought to address that in

in Occasions, you know making

apologies having Opportunities and that type of thing.

I think one of the troubling things is whether it's As far as our nation is concerned

we talking about in addressing the Southern Baptist Convention that

Sometimes we think that we have to just go back and continuously Revisit these things to make sure

that everyone understands that we love Jesus and we love every people group on planet Earth.

I think that we can just get ourselves in trouble if that's always what we're focusing on.

People do need to know that but I do think that people know that already.

So I don't know that we need to be consistently spending much time at conventions

Talking about those matters and we should be talking about number one the gospel and how to rightly

preach the gospel second of all When it comes to Martin Luther King jr. When we think

about The man himself, although we can applaud, you know his

desire to see Equality Across the board as

far as the races go here in the United States of America Martin Luther King is celebrated often as

a gospel preacher and a hero and that type of thing I think we can applaud.

I think we need to divide Martin Luther King up into his His

politics preaching and his doctrine Martin Luther

King was very much a troubling figure when it comes to the gospel I I don't really believe that

Martin Luther King himself preached the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

I Think that he was wrong on the gospel.

I think he was wrong on I think he approached

things from a skewed.

Worldview, in fact if you if you.

If he did not change.

Or should I say repent?

From his doctoral dissertation.

He did not even believe in the deity of Christ.

He did not believe that there was any atoning value or redemptive value in the

Crucifixion of Christ that it was merely a great act of sacrifice and humility to be an

example for us.

He did not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ, and I don't know I'm assuming that if he had

repented of those things that would have been something he would be just as loudly.

Proclaiming from a pulpit is racial equality.

But yeah, yeah, I think you're right.

Repentant of those doctrinal errors, so I'm very much concerned with where he stood on on the

heart of the gospel.

Now do I applaud the fact that he wanted to see racial equality among blacks

and whites and other Racial groups in the United States.

Yes, I'm very much happy that he did that, but I'm not happy with his gospel message.

I'm not happy with.

Some other things that are troubling related to his character and his

morals must not be swept under the rug.

We we should be very cautious to elevate People and

just say that they're heroes unblemished heroes.

But you know just for instance we're doing a Reformation tour.

James White and I will be leading that here in September and and so lots of times people

say well.

Don't you understand that Martin Luther and John Calvin believed things that were a little bit troubling and they you know.

Do you believe every single thing that Martin Luther believed or every single thing that the John Calvin believed and the

answer to that is simply?

No.

We're not seeking to raise These men to a pedestal where they're unblemished heroes.

We want to address the people and to be very balanced what we

can celebrate and then be honest.

When it comes to things that we don't necessarily agree with and I think that that should be done very much.

Yes, I do consider him an American hero, I believe that his voice

Challenging the authorities and challenging American citizens to

bring an end to Discrimination racial discrimination and hatred.

Obviously there are there are forms of discrimination that are very valuable that we all participate in including

Our black brothers and sisters and neighbors, but as far as and I am that is

Not in regard to big bigotry or anything like that.

I'm sure you understand what I say when I'm referring to Discrimination.

But in regard to racial bigotry and

Martin Luther King jr.'s.

Call.

To bring these things to an end where where and when.

Humanly possible these things are going to remain with us until we're in glory, of course.

But in regard to laws and things like that.

The fact that he did so while at the same time simultaneously

Calling for peaceful resolutions.

Rebuking Those in the civil rights movement that were calling for violence or even

participating in violence at the time when we had the rise of of

Black Panthers and the Nation of Islam his was a much -needed voice.

Because violence may have Taken sway in a much more dramatic

fashion had he not been used to.

Bring about a level of civility and peace.

But being an American hero does not make one a Christian here.

I would say the same thing for people like Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson.

Yeah, and many of the founding fathers of this country.

I am equally upset when I hear Christians paint

the all of the founding fathers with a Christian brush.

And and and even today you have this new ecumenical movement where you have

conservatives painting Roman Catholics and even Mormons With a Christian

brush just because they are standing with us side -by -side on many moral and social

issues that we are fighting Against and sometimes standing for

in our day and age.

So this is not a one -sided thing.

I'm just not.

I'm not just upset about the the Christianizing or making a Christian hero Martin Luther King

jr.

But it goes with all people of all races, right?

Yeah, and I think that what you're saying is exactly right.

And one of the ways that we teach people within the church to understand to be balanced on these issues.

Whether it be you know, politically speaking or whether it be doctrinal issues.

Pertaining to the gospel.

Understanding these things and where we can, you know applaud and where we can be cautious on these

matters all Traces its way back to the discussion today, which is discipleship.

We must be willing to teach these things from the pulpit and until the truth and

To rightly handle the Word of God and that's how we make disciples.

And we can have Christians that can you know?

Stand up and be a voice of reason in a culture.

But also understand that politics is not the ultimate answer for America.

Jesus Christ is Amen.

And by the way, I want to let our listeners know That we should have a fascinating discussion on

Monday, July 24th from 4 to 6 p .m with

a brother in Christ Micah Edmondson Who is an Orthodox

Presbyterian scholar? who happens to be also an african -american brother in Christ

who wrote his doctoral dissertation on Martin Luther King jr.

And I am going to be having a two -hour interview with Pastor Micah as I said on Monday, July 24th 4 to 6

p .m Eastern Time, so I hope that you mark your calendars for calendars for that.

I think this will prove to be an educational experience for me as well.

I'm not an expert on Martin Luther King jr. As apparently Pastor Micah is.

Perhaps he will correct me in some errors In my ways of thinking but I think that he will

probably most likely be on the same page with me in my

attitude toward Recognizing heresy no matter where it may exist.

But so mark your calendars for that and get some questions ready to email us on Monday,

July 24th 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time, but Today

as you know a brother we are discussing Knowing God a biblical understanding of discipleship.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air of the question regarding that subject our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail

.com.

C H R I s a R n Z n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA before we go into the topic for those of our listeners who are discovering You for the first

time on iron chirping Zion radio.

Pastor Josh, please.

Let our listeners know something about Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia.

The apathy praising about this church Is Atlanta, Georgia and

Douglas is again a Baptist Church 175

years old this year.

We'll be celebrating that anniversary on dr. Stephen Lawson will be here preaching.

To commemorate and to celebrate that milestone.

I have the privilege of serving this church as pastor.

I've been here seven years.

My wife and I both grew up here as children and it's a delight to serve this church.

If I could just say one thing to brag on this church.

Is that praise mill is a unique church because people

who genuinely love God and love the Word of God.

And it's just a privilege to pastor a group of people that that.

Amen.

And if for anybody who would like to visit Praise Mill Baptist Church, whether they Already

live in the Douglasville, Georgia area or if they're going to be vacationing there or if they have relatives or friends there.

The website is praise mill calm PR.

A Y.

S.

M I L L calm.

Not the way you would think Instinctively that you would spell that because pray was the name of an

individual who was the founding pastor of that congregation, correct?

Yeah, so that's PR a Y s.

M I LL calm.

No apostrophe obviously since it's a URL and I hope that many of you

who are able to Make it a point to visit there at some point and if you're living locally there Consider

joining it if you do not have a Bible -believing congregation that you belong to right now now.

Tell our listeners something about delivered by grace your blog.

Delivered by grace.

Calm is blog that I started when I was a seminary student.

It was formed just for the purpose of Just talking about theology talking about practical

issues related to preaching and ministry among seminary students and

Eventually, it sort of morphed into what it is today.

I think it was called practical theology discussions Dot blog spot

calm if I'm not mistaken and now it's it's it's it's been become Just a

place where I write articles.

So I write a couple of articles a week on Tuesday and Thursday and then I do a

sermon review on Monday and then I do What's called a spotlight where

I just highlight different links of different articles.

It might be helpful I do that on Wednesday and Friday and so

just try to use it as an opportunity to write and to help further sound biblical

truth among Christian great and.

Last but not least tell us about how the g3 conference came to be and exactly what

those three G's stand for.

Yeah, so the g3 conference is coming up on the 6th annual conference this January

back in about 2011.

Myself and one of my fellow pastors.

We were talking about forming some type of conference here.

That could be a blessing to other churches along with our church.

And other pastors as well, maybe in the Atlanta, maybe just outside of the Atlanta area maybe, you know,

you know just the southeast we could reach out to a few churches and.

So we formed this conference.

And I just said why don't we call it the g3 conference and that stands for gospel grace and glory.

We wanted everyone to know up front that this is a theology conference.

It's not a pep rally.

It's not a place where we just come and hang out together and sing a few songs.

It's not a concert.

This is a theology conference.

So we're going to have you know, 10 to 12 sometimes as many as 15 Main session

sermons as well as breakout sessions.

We'll be singing the gospel preaching the gospel studying the gospel together for about three days and so

we have a reputation of being very fast -paced and we you know, just try to accomplish a lot

over that weekend, so that was

started the planning process 2011 the first conference was held

2013 and There was a waiting list

in 2014 looking at all of the

registrations and we could see that people were not just coming from the Atlanta in the southeast area.

They were coming from all over the nation.

They were coming from outside of the United States.

So we decided to with much planning much discussion.

Among the church to move the g3 conference to a convention center over across from the airport

for the 2017 conference where we had about we

went from about 74 years to about 2 ,500

and speakers at the g3.

2018 conference include.

Paul Washer God willing.

Stephen Lawson Votie Balcom HB Charles jr. Tim Challies our guest pastor Josh

Bice.

James are white of Alpha Omega Ministries a dear mutual friend of Josh's and mine.

Tom Askell president of founders ministries.

Anthony Mathenia.

Michael Kruger who was actually at one time a member of the congregation where I am a member now Grace Baptist Church in

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, he was a pastoral intern before he converted to Presbyterianism.

David Miller Paul trip who's gonna be a guest coming up soon on iron trip and Zion radio.

Todd Friel of wretched TV and wretched radio.

Derek Thomas Who is going to be a guest again on iron trip and Zion radio?

God -willing soon.

Martha peace and more if you'd like to join me at the G3

conference 2018 go to g3 conference calm g3 conference calm and

click on G3 2018 and I thank you a pastor Josh Bice for Allowing me to have

an exhibitors booth there again at iron sharpens at the g3 conference for iron sharpens iron radio.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I was such a joy This past January to have that exhibitors booth.

Not only to meet so many people for the first time that listen already to my program.

Even our brother from England who I think may have moved to the United States Kofi.

He who shouted to me from across the room.

This african -american brother from England.

He said all in shop and Zion.

He recognized my face from the website, I guess.

And I was it was such a pleasure to meet him and dozens of other people who listen regularly to my program that I

never Had even heard from before.

Who had never even submitted questions to the program for my guests and also those that had been

writing in to me with questions for my guests that I had never before met face to face

and also Introducing the program to a number of people who have begun to email me

since with questions for our guests.

And some of those that I've met the for the first time have become guests themselves.

So it was really a wonderful time.

It was a fruitful time and a blessed time.

It was also a wonderful time of refreshment and Edification

and being challenged and Educated and enlightened and just blessed by the speakers there.

Probably the best Bible conference I had ever been to in my life.

So I'm looking forward to This one coming up in January.

We're gonna go to a break right now.

And before I go to the break I am going to email you a

Listener question so you have it in front of you.

She actually has three questions.

So I'm gonna read the first question now and You could answer

that when we return from the break when you actually have these Questions in front of you that you can mull

them over during the break, but this is from Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania.

This year's Southern Baptist Convention appears to have suffered much confusion and contention over the issue of

racism as per media reports I understand that the Southern Baptist Convention was formed in 1845 when a

split from other Baptists that were against slavery.

In your opinion, why is it taking 172 years for the Southern Baptist Convention to openly acknowledge that there can?

Never be any support given to individuals or organizations that discriminate against persons of

color.

Probably better put discriminate against persons just because of their color would probably be a

better way of phrasing it because obviously You wouldn't ordain a homosexual Individual or a

person involved in that activity just because they were black or white or whatever color they were.

That's why we have to Begin using the word discriminate in an actual

grammatically correct way in our day but anyway you can you could respond to Jenny's

a question and the other two questions when we return from the break and I'm emailing that to you now.

If anybody else would like to join us on the air Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and you may

Remain anonymous.

It makes you feel more comfortable.

So don't go away.

We will be right back after these messages.

God willing with pastor Josh Bice of the g3 conference.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Orns.

And if you just tuned us in our guest today is pastor Josh Bice of Praise Mill Baptist Church in

Douglasville, Georgia.

He is also the founder and director of the annual g3 conference in

Atlanta, Georgia.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question regarding our theme Knowing God a biblical understanding of discipleship.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris Arnzen at

gmail .com.

And before the break pastor Josh Jenny and Ben Salem, Pennsylvania her first

of three questions.

Is.

In your opinion, why is it taken?

172 years for the Southern Baptist Convention to openly acknowledge that there can never be any support given

to Individuals or organizations that discriminate against persons of color?

Yeah.

Well, first of all, Chris, it hasn't taken that long.

So Through the years the Southern Baptist Convention has sought to make it very clear

that we do not celebrate any form of racism and that any.

Any support of the historic people that were around

the time period of the founders of the convention?

That would have supported slavery.

We have apologized for made resolutions to stand against so the Southern Baptist Convention today is

nowhere even close to being.

Where it was on these matters 172 years ago, for instance in 1995

There was a resolution on racial reconciliation.

That was passed on the hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the Southern Baptist Convention.

That meeting was held in Atlanta, Georgia.

You can go and find that if you google it.

You can look for the resolution on racial reconciliation of the SBC in Atlanta 1995

and you can read all of the language.

Pertaining to the great where where the SBC

not only acknowledged but apologized for those history.

So that's an issue that must be understood now the problem with that is from the

alt -right movement an issue

of History it's an issue of an ongoing

politically racial problem that seems to seep into Certain

religious groups such as the SBC now.

I don't know of any this was much of a surprise

so large they want to Address these matters even if they hear about it

on a small scale at some level.

So this alt -right movement you can go and you can find some.

I think there's an article on the gospel Coalition's website that explains

the historically it's not that

movement.

Is is it

race?

So it's definitely racism of

whites.

So once again, I mean I was blown away with all little

individual.

I've not heard of one report or one church that some

I'm really not sure.

But I can assure you of the fact that at the can presented

at the convention I saw no one standing up in favor of this stuff.

The media likes to take it and then use it and

just use it again.

I would say as I said at the beginning I think the focus should have been on the resolution on the Reformation and the

resolution on again, that's the answer

and.

Jenny's second question, which I'm assuming you have in front of you as well now since I forwarded it to you.

But though I am aware that you are not a spokesman for the Southern Baptist Convention.

Do you know what plans the SBC are contemplating to advance pastors of color within the organization?

Well, I just heard something recently very exciting about HB. Charles jr. One of the speakers

at the g3 conference.

Yeah, absolutely.

So if you go back to 2012.

In 2012 Fred Luter was elected as the president of the Southern Baptist Convention.

It was to serve in that position.

And that would begin in 2012 this year 2017 the pastors conference, which is

not The Southern Baptist Convention.

It's the pastors conference that's in conjunction with The Southern Baptist Convention and it's always held on

Sunday and Monday prior to the Tuesday Wednesday meeting of the convention.

But HB Charles jr again a friend of mine was Elected as the the president of that

conference which will be held in conjunction with next year's Lee.

What it means is that he along with his staff that he will build Will be given a budget and then he can

invite speakers to come and speak.

And preach within that conference over those two days.

He'll choose a theme and so he basically runs within so that's really Encouraging and you can look for that

to be a very healthy conference next year.

And I happen to know that my friend Eric Redmond Who is now on the faculty at Moody

Bible Institute?

Eric Redmond at one time was the second vice president of the Southern

Baptist Convention that that is not that he was the second vice president in

the history of the Southern Baptist Convention that is actually a an office.

Second vice president is the actual office and he Some time ago filled

that role and he is an african -american brother and quite a precious brother to me and friend.

And I'm sure there's a lot of other things that we have not even mentioned, but I'm sure you would agree pastor Bice that

Tokenism is never a good thing either.

It's never a good thing to Appoint somebody or give somebody a role of responsibility merely

because of their color of their skin whether it's white or black.

I'm assuming that you would agree with that wholeheartedly.

I absolutely agree with that.

I don't think that you should give anyone a pass because of the color of their skin.

I think that is the position and I can say this without

question.

That's the the precise reason that HB Charles was elected.

Amen.

It was not a.

He was not elected because he you know.

People were sympathetic.

He was elected because he is a very capable preacher and will do an excellent job.

And in fact, even the words of Martin Luther King jr. There were that we should judge people.

Not by the color of their skin, but according to the content of their character.

That's right.

So number three a very controversial question.

What is your opinion on the unfounded and rabid attacks against?

Dr. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries concerning his apologetic approach to Muslims.

It is clear to me that his approach is biblical after all he uses the same approach when he has confronted Mormons

Jehovah's Witnesses Roman Catholics and cults such as more recently the Iglesia Ni

Cristo from the Philippines who are a Beach heading efforts

here now in the United States among the Filipino population.

Shouldn't we study?

Their materials and dialogue with them so as to become more effective ambassadors of the gospel.

Well, first of all attacking James White.

Yeah, I think that James White is just a great big lightning rod.

I think people like to just figure out ways to attack him.

That is true.

So he attracts this but nevertheless

Figure out ways to punch him in the nose, so to speak on the internet.

The fact the matter is simply this.

You can choose.

I guess you could say like this you can choose various different approaches.

You could choose just to sum it up two different approaches.

You could choose the first approach would be to just say that all Muslims are on their way to hell to have a false

god a false theology of God a false document.

Or you know in false scriptures you can eat in a false prophet.

You can you can just simply make broad statements like that and then just shove

them off on their way to hell or you can simply try to approach them with respect and

Dignity that they were created in the image and likeness of God as a human being.

They have a soul that's gonna live for eternity in one place or the other either heaven or hell and

then you could show manner that brings them to a

place where they can reason and Understand true beauty of the gospel

and the errors of their own religion.

So you can do one or two approaches.

You can either just say go to hell or you can try it a way that

they could see the beauty of the gospel.

So they would not indeed go to hell so they get a salvation of sinners.

And so I think that that James White's approach to dealing with Muslims is not it's

not to say That he's trying to give them a free pass.

He's certainly not he's very clear on the gospel.

He's very clear on the errors of the religion of Islam time.

He wants to have a meaningful dialogue in such a way that brings them to see the true beauty of the gospel

of Jesus Christ.

Anyone can just say here's a Bible and smack someone over the head with it.

You know and just tell them to go about their merry way.

Why it

is that

we believe what

we believe and why it is that Jesus Christ is the exclusive way of

Salvation.

I think that the latter approach that James White takes is a much more meaningful and

helpful way To approach the matter and it doesn't matter if you're talking

about a Jehovah's Witness or if you're talking about a Mormon.

I think you should try to make sure that you're gonna

approach and to clarify.

I know that you believe.

That all unrepentant Muslims will Unfortunately and tragically go to hell.

The only way he is the exclusive means of salvation.

Yes, then we

go about on your way to the

celestial city with a you know Spirit is not

helpful.

And I think that we need to just you know, even in the debates if you watch James White debate

you will see that he treats people with respect and Dignity, but yet at the very same time He does

not give them a free pass when it comes to the subject of the gospel He points them to their errors and then he

elevates the true beauty of the gospel.

Yes, and one of the things that is very ironic about this Recent these recent attacks on

James I have been working with him since 1995 on debates and speaking engagements

the vast majority of those 22 years Have been me

have involved me Attempting to correct or rebuke those slandering him

for being a nasty hateful bigot And these were totally

unwarranted Accusations and malicious slanders and with no basis

In truth whatsoever.

And in fact as I posted recently on Facebook Years ago. I had invited a

very well -known Roman Catholic apologist who is an ecumenist.

He's a convert Convert from are you still there pastor Josh?

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

I heard some kind of weird noise there.

He was a convert from Presbyterianism, I believe to Roman Catholicism

is even thought very highly of by evangelical some evangelicals.

But I invited him to debate James on the mass and he initially

Agreed to do the debate and then later backed out.

I pressed him for a reason and after hemming and hawing he finally Admitted that he

was warned that James was an unscholarly brute and that debating him would be

nothing more than a mild -mannered professor walking into a cage

with a professional wrestler and when I told this Apologist that he was guilty of gossip because he had

not investigated these accusations himself.

He actually Acquiesced and agreed that I was correct.

So he watched videos of dr. White in debates with Catholics.

He called me back and apologized Saying that dr. White is far from being

unscholarly that he was impressed by his Brilliance and that the only reason he was then at

that time backing out of the debate was because Dr. White was way out of his league

in regard to the topic of the mass.

He was far above the league of this Catholic apologist, so it is ironic that

now it's that he's mr. Rogers reincarnated and Captain

captain of the cream puff ecumenical factory.

They're looking to just try to make an impact of it and so it's really sad.

I'm quite honest with you.

Why don't you try to spend your time being an effective witness and an ambassador of the gospel of Jesus Christ rather than just?

Seeking ways to attack James White.

That's a good question to ask.

Yeah, and I have to give a caveat here I don't think that James White is an

untouchable.

I think that someone may have a legitimate disagreement with

Having a Muslim speak for any reason in a Christian Church.

I think that that is a legitimate argument and a debatable argument.

And I think that you could be opposed to that kind of thing without going Delving into the

depths of Slander, I mean to call someone a traitor because of that to

say that they are preaching another Gospel and all that kind of nonsense that that is nothing more than

malicious Slanderous wicked behavior and to give you an example.

I have friends.

Who a very small handful of friends who are very opposed to the fact that I

orchestrate debates? very frequently between believers and those with

unchristian or anti -christian or non -christian religious views because they have a

belief system that a debate requires Christians to hear.

Either an apostate or a heretic or an enemy of Christ Present their views and in

an essence proselytize their views.

So they these folks that I know they're very opposed to any kind of a debate for those reasons but

as much as they have.

Been.

Disapproving of the fact that I run debates and.

Even saddened that I run debates and heartbroken that I run debates.

They have never escalated in their rhetoric to the level of calling me a traitor or

a preacher of a false gospel or running ecumenical tea parties.

Or things like that.

I mean, so I I don't know if you want any comment on what I just said there.

Yeah, I guess Chris what I would say is that I agree with you, but I also want to say that you know As a pastor, I am

sympathetic to the idea that people would be concerned about giving up a pulpit say, you know for

someone you know that's a Heretic to come in and be able to influence like

for instance the g3 conference, you know, we've had we've had a debate here

This past year in conjunction with the g3.

Keep in mind that's different than saying We're not going to have the typical Lord's Day service today, but in its place We're

going to have a debate between a Muslim and an evangelical Christian.

I would not be in favor of that.

I would not be in favor of Canceling the Lord's Day now.

I know that there are people that disagree with me and that and you might be one of those and that's not an issue of

Contention or Division in my in my personal opinion if we have a different position on

that issue, that's fine.

But I'm saying I think that there's a place for debates.

I think that there's a really good place for debates and for for people

to the true gospel of Jesus Christ understand this I Believe in the

sovereignty of God in salvation.

I do not believe that a genuine Christian the faith and lose

their salvation by listening to a Muslim Talk about their beliefs.

Amen.

I do however believe that a genuine Muslim might actually come to a debate and hear the gospel in.

By the power of the gospel and God's sovereign grace might actually come to faith in Christ.

Amen my sheep.

She'll hear my voice.

Yeah, and I know them and they follow me, right?

Well, we have to go to a break right now and thank you Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania, and we're going to

break right now.

Let you know about something that you've just won as a result of writing in but if anybody else would like to join us our email Address is

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

Or am I trying to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

Than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity.

But since that wasn't the Apostles priority it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and To be

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If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area Please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

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You can find us at Providence Baptist Church ma org.

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Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in here at iron sharpens iron radio.

Our guest today for the full two hours with about an hour to go is Josh by senior pastor of Praise Middle Baptist

Church of Douglasville, Georgia.

He's a blogger at delivered by grace .com and director of the annual g3

conference.

The next edition of which is coming up in January and we are discussing knowing God a biblical understanding

of discipleship.

But before I return to my discussion with Pastor Bice I have some

announcements to make next week.

I am going to be in New York City from June 22nd through the 23rd at the

Foundations conference a conference orchestrated by sermon audio and if you would like to join

me there go to the foundations conference calm the foundations

conference calm and This is an excellent conference as well with such

speakers as dr. Stephen J Lawson, dr Joel Beeky Phil Johnson

executive director of grace to you the ministry of John MacArthur Todd Friel of wretched TV and

wretched radio and more and As I said, you could go to the foundations conference

calm to register the foundations conference calm.

And if you do attend this event, I hope you look me up there in New York City at the foundations conference.

And please also tell them if you register that you heard about the conference from iron sharpens iron radio.

And by the way, they also have good news for those of you who cannot attend this event the

foundations conference calm will be live streaming the event and sermon audio calm

will also be live streaming the event so either way you can Be blessed by

the foundations conference then after that in August from the 3rd through the 5th Fellowship conference New

England is being held at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine.

And speakers at this event include pastor Don Curran who is the Eastern European

coordinator with heart cry missionary society in Radford? Virginia which is the organization

founded by Paul Washer my dear friend pastor Mac Tomlinson Who is an author and

he is the pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.

I'm looking forward to sharing fellowship with him again pastor Jesse Barrington of

Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas who's been on this program.

He's also the pastor of a church that is the sister church of Grace Life Church in Lake City, Florida.

Who have a radio station Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM that airs iron sharpens iron Every day

and that came about as a result of my exhibitors booth at the g3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia this

past January pastor Nate pickowitz is also going to

Be speaking at the conference.

He is pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire.

And he is the author of reviving New England, which I will be interviewing pastor Nate on

That book reviving New England two weeks from now on a Tuesday, so I hope that you mark

your calendars for the last Tuesday in June

to the 27th of June and then If you'd like to register for

this conference go to fellowship conference New England calm fellowship conference New England calm

then after that in November We have the Quaker Town

Conference on Reform Theology, which is a conference of the Alliance of confessing

evangelicals and That's being held November 17th and the 18th.

Actually, one of those days is the birthday of the woman who led me to Christ 30 years ago, that's interesting

so it's November 17th through the 18th in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania and

I hope that you can attend this conference with me.

I will be there god -willing and this should be a wonderful time of edification and

fellowship at this conference and The speakers of this conference include Kent

Hughes Peter Jones Tom Nettles Dennis Cahill and Scott Oliphant.

The theme is for still our ancient foe Which is obviously a line from the classic Reformation hymn a mighty

fortress by Martin Luther.

Go to Alliance net org to register Alliance net org click on events and then click on

Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology then the aforementioned G3

conference from January 18th through the 20th in Atlanta, Georgia on the theme

Knowing God a biblical understanding of discipleship, which is our theme for today on iron sharpens

iron radio and Speakers include as I mentioned earlier Paul Washer Steven Lawson Voti Baucom HB Charles

jr. Tim Challis Josh Bice James R White Tom Askell Anthony Matheny and Michael Kruger

David Miller Paul trip Todd Friel Derek Thomas and others and you can register at that conference at g3

conference .com g3 conference .com and Lastly, I must

remind you that iron sharpens iron radio is an urgent need of donor donors.

Additional donors benefactors.

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And put advertising in the subject line.

So now we are back with our discussion with pastor Josh Bice and

If you'd like to join us with a question for pastor Bice our email address again is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com by the way before I go to our listeners question.

Joe in Slovenia wrote us a question that I did forward to you.

So I'm assuming you have it in front of you pastor Josh, but before I do that I believe from our last

discussion.

You said that there was Still availability for a discount for anybody

registering before a certain deadline.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

If you register before midnight on June the 26th, then you can

receive additional savings because as Everyone should know by now. We

have certain dates that there are rate increases.

This is just the nature of the beast.

It's not trying, you know, we're in no way trying to get more money.

It's just we have you know a huge undertaking.

As far as all of the convention costs at the convention center and all of the

hotels and various different things.

So all of those rates increase if you wait longer.

So we typically have a big surge of attendees that want to start registering in the fall.

If they would simply register in June before June 26 and you can find out all this

information at g3 conference.

Calm is right on the home page.

But again rates will increase on that particular day.

And in fact pastor Josh the first 50

people who register As a result of hearing your interview on iron

sharpens iron radio if they attend the g3 conference and Register from hearing this interview if they

come to my exhibitors booth at the conference They will receive a free New American Standard Bible

so so I just want everybody to make a note of that if you heard about the conference from

iron sharpens iron radio and You're one of the first 50 that register as a result of that.

Just come to the exhibitors booth and in that Bible will be waiting for you there on site and it will be a very attractive

Bible not some Cheap paperback Bible will be a very not that any version of the Bible.

This is not valuable, but it will be a very attractive Version of the New American

Standard Bible, and I hope that I hope that you.

I'm sorry pastor Joshua.

I interrupted you.

No, no, I was just going to remind your listeners That yes, the

can that the g3 conference does start on the 18th.

But it actually starts on the 17th and the 17th that entire

it's our first and we're very excited about that.

So people can find out more information on the website.

But all day on Wednesday on the 17th is Spanish and then we're going to be releasing some information

about a debate.

It will be held in conjunction that'll be Wednesday evening and then Thursday morning will start there g3

in English.

So again, you can certainly find out that information at the website.

Great, and I will talk to you after the program is over about a couple of Spanish Christian stations

that We might be able to work something out to promote that aspect of the conference.

Yeah, that would be good.

And.

Once again, our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Oh, I forgot to mention Jenny and Ben Salem, Pennsylvania.

Thanks for writing in your question today.

And because of that you have won a free copy of a book by one of the g3

2018 speakers Paul David Tripp.

This is a book called Sex and money pleasures that leave you empty and grace that

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And.

Mr. Josh, I believe you have in front of you Joe and Slovenia's question.

He says.

Thanks so much for having brother by spec again.

He's such a blessing to me every time I hear him.

I came across this quote recently that seems to go along with the basis of today's topic.

Many modern evangelicals have a real aversion to doctrinal discussion.

There are two reasons for this.

First they live in a culture promoting tolerance and have been taught that disagreement is wrong.

Second they don't know their doctrine because they've been raised to feel and not to think.

These two issues go hand in hand and A person who doesn't think doesn't know how to disagree and a

person unwilling to disagree has never been forced to think.

Sadly, this creates a culture of whims emotions and

Experimentalism and I'm sorry experientialism.

My experience bears this out apart from you and a few other apologists and polemicists.

Podcasts, I know I know.

No one who is willing and able to engage in meaningful discussion on the types of important topics you address.

Has this always been the case?

Is it unlikely to change in the future?

What would need to happen to change the situation for the better?

Thank you for your bold faithfulness to the gospel and proclaiming it.

That's Joe in Slovenia.

Yeah, Joe.

Thank you for the kind words.

I would simply say that There is a problem within Evangelicalism today as far as

having a zeal without knowledge that there's there's this.

You.

Might say attraction some people have to just being extremely zealous

and sometimes that leads into pragmatism and all of their Christianity is

focused on Just zeal without knowledge and so their worship is all emotional.

Their service to God is all full of zeal, but they don't know how to think.

They don't know how to Really give themselves to thinking earnestly about the

the depths and the breadth and the width and the height of The gospel of Jesus Christ, and so

I would say there are two dangers when it comes to Christianity.

There's one danger that is knowledge without zeal.

That's that's certainly a problem.

In fact, I've written an article about this and it's going to be published in the September edition of

table talk put out by Ligonier ministries and

It's extremely Problematic if all you do is think and all you do is

is look at books and stare at you know doctrinal statements and creeds and confessions.

But but you have absolutely zero

action behind your

Again faith without works is do we need to make sure that we don't

just have a whole lot of knowledge without zeal.

But we also don't want to fall into the other ditch Which is to have an awful lot or an abundance of zeal

without knowledge.

And so there needs to be a balance.

And I think that Christians need to be well balanced.

And so you don't want to be the guy that just comes in and he sits in a in the church library

All weekend long and he doesn't ever serve God.

All he did all he wants to do is read.

All he wants to do is look down and.

You.

Actually want to have an ability to go out and put your faith into action, but you don't

want to be the guy That's just running around with a sword and he doesn't know what the world

he doesn't know how to make sense of systematic Theology or biblical theology or he doesn't know how to

make sense of even his own doctrines.

So you need to be able to think again.

A right view of God and appreciation for the depths

of the gospel will produce a zeal

to serve the resurrected Christ.

And so I think we need to avoid both ditches.

Well, thank you Joe in Slovenia and you have also won a free copy of

Paul David Tripp's book.

Sex and money pleasures that leave your leave you empty and grace that satisfied Paul David

Tripp being one of the speakers at the upcoming G3 conference in 2018 and I

thank you for providing your daughter's address in Georgia.

Where that will be shipped more affordably by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV bbs .com.

That saves them a ton of money when they can ship things Domestically as opposed to overseas.

And by the way, Joe in Slovenia Why don't you make a trip to visit your daughter in?

Georgia this coming January 18th through the 20th So that we can share a time of fellowship at the g3

conference.

That would be great.

If you can arrange something like that.

And would love to meet you face to face.

You've written quite a number of excellent questions to us for our guests on iron sharpens iron radio so

please do that if at all possible and try to do that while the discount is still

available and Once again, that is g3 conference comm.

G3 conference comm is the Mailing as the website address.

We have an anonymous listener.

How does your guest feel about the lack of church discipline?

Especially in the area of the Lord's Supper.

The Southern Baptists seem to not guard the Lord's table as much as they Guard the baptistry.

I am a member of a Southern Baptist Church and Certain areas seem to be

handled loosely.

Well, thank you anonymous.

And by the way, I'm sure you would agree pastor Josh that you would probably have just as much variety and

difference of opinion in the Southern Baptist Convention as many other denominations where not every

church would fit the description.

There are anonymous listener gives but some would be probably Very accurately described by him, but if you

could comment.

Yeah, once again extremely large, so I'm not saying that the Southern Baptist

Convention is the most healthy Group of churches out there.

I'm simply stating that I think that while I might say that I

have some problems with certain aspects of the SPC I'm also very much pleased with some

things that I do see they're happening within the convention.

So question I would say that you're exactly right.

There's an awful lot of Lack of guarding the table and fencing the table when

it comes to the Lord's Supper.

So The way that the question was phrased.

I would simply state that I don't know Did an awful lot of Southern Baptist churches are guarding the

baptistry as well.

I think that there's an awful lot of.

Severe and Newick help.

You might say yeah, in fact, I've heard perhaps you could correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard from people who

Live in the heart of the South surrounded by Southern Baptist churches with with family

and friends who are members of Southern Baptist churches and there is almost a

Practice that would be not far afield from being Pato Baptist in that

although they would never baptize an infant They would automatically very often baptize

someone as soon as they turn 12 or something.

Just because they've turned 12.

Not because of any repentance or faith.

Right, right.

I like so much Baptist out

of the year or

Asian Bible school taking

a lot of children.

You don't want to go to the bad place and burn in hell and how many of you want to get

to the go there?

And after me and then you um, then

they take children that don't know the

gospel and

you're in heaven or

hell

methodology.

We need to be very careful because I was a lost church member from 25.

So there's an awful lot of people who are dunked in a

baptistry at an early age that don't really understand the gospel and then they're entrapped in this

Religiosity and they don't know how or why it is that their heart is not fulfilled in God.

And it's because they're not genuinely converted.

That's the reason that the health of the church is in the state that it's in today, but To the point of the

question I think that we need to make sure that we fit and we need to make

very clear as to what this is actually Representing what we are doing.

We are engaging in worship.

I try to make sure that we're very clear

about this.

We think that the children being in the church.

We want them to see it.

We want them to see their parents their grandparents.

We want them to see us worshiping at the Lord's table, but we also want to make sure that we

tell the parents and The guardians of their children that

they are to govern their families.

Well, so that they are not allowing children to partake of the Lord's table if they're

unconverted.

And so if they're not a baptized follower of the Lord Jesus Christ.

We simply ask them to not partake this again.

This is that this is an aspect of worship.

It is at the core of celebrating the you know

substitutionary death of Jesus Christ.

Actually, I love some

troublemakers in his church had been, you know guilty of all types of vile sin and womanizing and

various other things in Geneva and there had been some You know political

aspect that can place and they had overturned

Calvin's decision.

These people are to bar these people from the Lord's table.

So when they barged in for the church on the Lord's Day and they wanted to take place in the Lord's Supper and they wanted

He came down and thrust himself over the table and and basically said that

They could lop off his arms if they so chose, but they would not partake of the Lord's table.

It would be over his body something like that.

You say why such a serious and

then you look at our culture today We basically turn it into a mid -worship snack

so to speak I Think we need to be very careful How we

treat the Lord's table we're talking about the blood and the body of Jesus Christ the Lamb of God who saves sinners.

Amen.

Well anonymous you have won a different book also by

a Speaker at the upcoming g3 conference in 2018.

You've won.

It happens after prayer biblical motivation for believing prayer by HB

Charles jr.

So if you would like to receive that free book compliments of the publishers and also

compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible book service.

Cv bbs .com.

Just mail.

Should say just email me your full name and address and I am I assure you you're you're not going to be

exposed on the air.

Or should I say or we're not going to reveal your identity is a better way.

On the air you will remain anonymous but this will just be for the purposes of mailing you the free book if you

would like to receive it and Thank you for joining us on the air.

I have another anonymous question er.

And this anonymous questioner says.

My question has to do with proper church discipline.

And I attend a church that will find out about a member sinning in adultery.

They ask them to either stop or leave the church after they leave the church and start attending another

church.

The pastor that asked them to leave calls the new church and Speaks to the

pastor about their excommunication along with that.

There is not a way back into the fellowship.

They were asked to leave.

Another lady who didn't get along with a deaconess was told to leave and not return ever.

Another family was told they might want to find another church.

More to their liking because they wanted more hymns song rather than praise songs.

That they also wouldn't sing along with the praise songs.

Please explain how these should have been handled Biblically especially about

ministering to reconcile an Excommunicated member and I'll have you answer that when we

return from our final break.

And our email address.

If anybody else would like to join us, we are running out of time.

But our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live

outside of the USA.

And Pastor Josh I am.

I am cutting and pasting this question Onto an email to send to you because the person wanted to

remain anonymous.

I'm not going to forward you the The question but just cut and paste the content of it.

Onto a new email and you'll have that in front of you when we come back from The break.

So this is our final break of the day.

Don't go away.

God willing.

We will be right back after these messages.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnz in if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes.

We have been discussing The theme of the g3 conference that is

coming up g3 conference 2018 being held January 18th through

the 20th and that theme being Knowing God a biblical understanding of discipleship.

And.

If you'd like to join us in the Brief amount of time that we have left now would be the time to fire off an email with a question

because we're running out Of time very rapidly.

Chris Arnz in at gmail .com.

Chris Arnz in at gmail .com.

And we had another anonymous listener as you know a pastor Josh who has

submitted a question.

I attend a church that will find out about a member sinning in adultery.

And they ask them to either stop or leave the church.

After they leave the church and start attending another church.

The pastor That asked them to leave calls the new church and speaks to the pastor about their excommunication.

Along with that there is not a way back into the fellowship.

They were asked to leave.

Another lady who didn't get along with the deep with a deaconess was told to leave and not return ever.

Another family was told they might want to find another church.

More to their liking because they wanted more hymns sung rather than praise songs.

They also wouldn't sing along with the praise songs.

Please explain how these should have been handled biblically especially about ministering to

reconcile and excommunicate excommunicated member.

With a spirit of humility desire of reconciliation,

so it is that

would be to the fold so to

speak as To use the imagery of a sheep that's wandering off from the from the

shepherd or from the rest of the flock.

So it's to bring that particular Individual back into a right fellowship with God first of all

and then second of all unity and reconciliation among the rest of the

church and So should never be carried out in a spirit of

arrogance or for revenge or for any other Issue

that you only get to the place of excommunication

to God in reconciliation to the church.

Something that's not practiced

by many churches to the broader spectrum of the evangelical church

when if you do practice it You need to make sure that you're practicing it in the way that Christ has intended and

he's made it like in Matthew chapter 18.

Matthew chapter 18 if there's someone sitting against you or you go to

that individual alone.

And then if that person repents you have gained your brother.

Then you go back to that individual with two or three witnesses

the presence of two or three witnesses.

We see that dating back to again the history of the nation of Israel

before they could have someone stoned to death before the death

Penalty

again, but

again.

If that person continues in sin according to Jesus his own words in Matthew 18 at That

point you would tell it to the church to the church and then

excommunicate all in one setting know.

What you do is you to the church and then allow the church?

Do the work of the church bring that person to a place reason

with that individual.

We're used not to listen to the church.

And again, we don't know It depends on what particular then

and only then would you move on to the final step, which would be excommunication?

If you're talking about someone who is say

abusing out

there on their

wives

to

move in

between here.

But and if you have

a stirring

that's not exemplifying

the heart of a shepherd.

That's exemplifying the heart of a bully.

And so we need to make sure that we understand which church discipline was actually Intended for in the first place and Jesus

has made it explicitly clear in the scriptures.

Amen and I can speak From personal experience that church discipline

need not be the end of the road people need not view it as something

horrifying that will destroy their lives if they Respond with humility and

obedience To those in authority over them.

I myself Years ago was under church discipline after 18 years of

sobriety.

After coming to Christ I began to dabble and then went far beyond dabbling in

alcohol consumption but became a very scandalously addicted

drunkard and if it were not for the loving approach of church discipline

that was Performed upon me by humble brethren in Christ that were my elders.

I might have been I might be dead right now.

And I just thank God for the Christlike way that they were involved in this

process with me and so I urge people if your elders are

seeking to Be involved in church discipline with you.

Your first reaction should not be just to go to another church.

That will be easy on you.

In fact, that is a part of his question I believe because it is very sad.

I have witnessed even biblically solid churches churches that are in

lockstep with me theologically or Some are Pato Baptists as well

But are reformed who have welcomed into the membership of their congregations

People that were excommunicated for unrepentant scandalous sin and it breaks my heart when I see that happen.

Yeah, I agree with that.

In fact about

we make it explicitly clear that if you're not in for

those who are baptized followers of Christ who have

like faith and doctrine to Actually take part in the

Lord's table with us.

And we do not allow anyone to take part in the Lord's table if they are Under church

discipline within their own church.

And so we we bar them from the table in such occasions.

But but another problem with church discipline again is like you stated is that people will

just allow Others to come into the life of their church and just will just welcome them in again.

This is what we call the pragmatic fruit or the fruit of pragmatic church growth methodology.

And just just trying to get another number another family Not taking into consideration the fact that they're

under church discipline, which might be an indicator that they're not

genuinely Saved again.

That's the whole purpose of church discipline.

It's for reconciliation.

But it's also to purify the church to make sure that the church is not full of goats.

Yes, in fact, I know of a church where there were

two couples that were close to each other and tragically the husband of one

couple and the wife of another couple carried on an adulterous affair and then

Filed for divorce against their respective spouses.

They left that church.

Without submitting to any discipline joined another church.

Perhaps what could be described as a moderately fundamentalist church

Fundamentalist Baptist Church and the woman involved in the sin within months

was was leading a Sunday school for children.

Just absolutely mind -blowing to me you could readily Believe that that would happen with a

liberal church or something to that effect.

Even perhaps a mushy -gushy modern evangelical church, but a conservative church that bordered on

being a fundamentalist church.

I was just I was just on and some sometimes I think that they use the excuse these churches.

Well that it's because of that other churches doctrine That led them into this sin, so we're gonna just

excuse that that's also ridiculous, isn't it?

It really is.

Again, I think that people say what church discipline doesn't work today.

We want to see our churches grow and that type of thing.

Look, I've seen church discipline work the way that God intended it to on a couple of different occasions

in my own ministry.

What would happen within the past couple of years here in the church?

Where a man was committing adultery on his wife and after being reproved of

that sin Privately on two occasions again in step with Matthew chapter 18.

He eventually had to be excommunicated from our church, but after a period of almost a year and a half to two

years there were times where He would allow me to meet with him and have

coffee with him.

And he would ask good questions and There eventually he and his wife reconciled and then he

eventually was reconciled within the church here.

And so is now back as a member of this church the point does work, and I think

that children I think that the entire church as a whole needs to see functional church

discipline work in the way that God intended it to and.

And.

What do you what do you think about those churches.

And this is another scenario.

I am aware of those churches that welcome excommunicants into

their doors and these Excommunicant people are still

doing things unrepentantly and when when the pastors of the

church welcoming this person.

A.

Challenge the pastors and say hey, what are you doing allowing this person just to have a comfortable existence within your

fellowship there?

This person is unrepentant in their sin and the pastor of that church will say they have not

become members Therefore I cannot do anything.

How does that excuse?

Slide by with you.

Again if you're a shepherd or free

pass Who very well might be on their way to hell thinking that they're safe when they're indeed lost church

members.

So you need to make you need to evaluate this scenario in an appropriate way within the Southern Baptist

Convention.

I've talked about some good things today, but just let me revisit something.

That's not so good, and it's this idea of writing for membership.

Within the SBC we have just an unwritten rule of my church from

another church.

We always write to the other church or call.

I even do this with you know with other Denominations so if someone's coming from say a

Presbyterian church down the road that has real position.

And we're I will do the same thing I will call and try to

make sure that this family is leaving on Good reasoning and

and that they're healthy.

Church members are not under discipline and that type of thing.

You see churches have written for membership to make sure that there's no

problem there.

Today.

If I write to.

Or if someone leaves this church and goes to another church.

And I say I object to them coming on this particular reason.

I've actually had another Southern Baptist Church and the pastor of that church Harbor

someone in that left this church because We were exposed to

the doctrinal errors of Roman Catholicism.

This has been a couple of years back now.

I went to and sat in the office of that particular church and looked at that pastor and said now listen.

You can't allow these people to come into your church.

Because they're leaving on doctrinal gospel oriented issues, and so I'm very much

concerned about the state of their soul.

I don't that they'd only been members of our church for a short period of time and they went through our membership process.

They went through the eldership interview.

They did everything to answer.

We believe that they were just young immature Christians.

That's the way that everything had been anyway long story short.

They accepted them in as members.

They went against the recommendation of the pastors of this church and welcomed them in as members

today.

That family is in is.

In.

Massive turmoil.

The father has been arrested for drug trafficking.

The mother has been involved in grotesque sin and it's just a tragic situation

once again could be avoided.

Potentially people souls in a

man.

And the other part of the question very quickly because we have a listener in Kinross, Scotland I want to address.

As far as I'm assuming you would never want to bring discipline against a family that

chose not to sing praise music along with the congregation if they were

Traditionalists because it would be causing them to violate their conscience, wouldn't it?

I mean, obviously there's a difference between that and somebody who's wreaking havoc over that and sowing this

so sowing seeds of discord.

And disunity that's one thing but like for instance, I know of certain circumstances.

Where?

Exclusive psalm singing.

Christians because of the lack of a congregation that agreed with them have joined Churches that

use extra biblical hymnody and they will not sing the hymns.

While they are in worship, they will sing the Psalms along with the congregation though.

Can that be something that we can live in harmony with without reaching discipline?

I think so.

But again, I think it's up to they're joining a

church to know that up front

and I'm not gonna

consider not if

they're not.

Trying to sow discord and create a massive divide in the church over these issues.

And I think that everybody can just live in harmony together.

This is a non -essential issue.

But again, if you have a family that's trying to divide the church over and cause a church split over

singing hymns versus Extra -biblical songs.

I think that that's a different issue altogether.

I think the actual meaning of the word heretic is one that sows discord, isn't it?

Correct.

Yeah, absolutely and.

Well, thank you anonymous.

If you would like a free copy of the HB Charles book that we mentioned it happens after prayer

Biblical motivation for believing prayer email me your full name and mailing address.

It will not be revealed on the air.

You'll it was just be for the purposes of mailing you that free book.

Compliments of the publishers and it'll be shipped to you.

Compliments of CVB BS comm.

And now we have our last question from Kinross Scotland Murray with regard with regard to discipleship and

church discipline.

Haven't you both just emphasize the key to handling these things?

Josh Bice just stated we must do things as Christ meant them to be done.

Chris Arnzen just spoke of the Christ like way that elders acted.

Isn't acting like Christ the key answer or the answer.

Yes, so we act like Christ in all.

That's a question.

Yeah, he's basically saying that we.

We in our answers.

He summarized it as behaving like Christ.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely again Christ is the is the Good Shepherd and so if you read the imagery of a shepherd in scripture

You see all of this pointing to the fact that we as pastors are to be behaving

ourselves and our leadership practices like the Good Shepherd himself for caring for sheep and so to do so

and You know it for people souls

Appropriately would not be the way that Christ would have us as pastors or as Christians for that matter to

behave ourselves.

So I think that Christ is the ultimate Example on how we should treat the church.

Amen, well pastor Josh I want to make sure that everybody has all the

information that they need if they want to register for the g3 conference.

In January of 2018 go to g3 conference calm G3 conference calm and

then click on g3 2018 and do so as soon as possible so you can take advantage of the

discount on the price.

And as far as those visiting Praise Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia Praise mill

calm PR a y s mill Calm and of course the blog is delivered by

grace calm delivered by grace calm.

I want to let everybody know that if you would like to hear my interview.

With my own a former pastor from Long Island before I moved to Pennsylvania

the very pastor who was one of the elders who actually enacted church discipline upon me.

We actually conducted an interview together on the subject of church discipline and that included a little bit

of the content of my own Discipline it may have been the first time in history that has ever happened If a

person who was under church discipline later after being restored did an interview on that.

But you could go to iron sharpens iron radio .com iron sharpens iron radio .com and type in

Grimaldi in the search engine G R I M as in Michael a LD as in

David I grim Aldi that was my pastor mark Ramaldi who I interviewed on that subject and

Mark your calendars for next Tuesday because Josh Bice pastor Josh Bice returns to iron sharpens iron radio to

continue to promote the G3 conference and to talk about other things and if pastor Josh if you could remain on the line.

So we could just discuss our topic for next week a little bit.

Very good, and I want everybody that listened.

First of all, I want to thank you for those of you who write wrote in questions and took the time to write in very Good

questions.

I want to thank everybody who listened today.

I want to thank all as always my sponsors who enable this program to remain on the air and I want you all to always Remember

for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.