Economics During Uncertain Times

Andrew Rappaport's Rapp Report

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01:00

Welcome to The Rap Report with your host, Andrew Rappaport, where we provide biblical interpretation and application.

01:08

This is a ministry of Striving for Eternity and the Christian podcast community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

01:18

All right. Well, I am your host, Andrew Rappaport, for another rap report. We're glad that you are here with us.

01:26

It happens to be on the day, if you're listening to this, to the day this drops.

01:31

Well, you should be wishing me happy birthday. Are you doing that? Did you go to my Facebook and enter the contest?

01:37

I'm just wondering. I actually can't stand my birthday, but many people like to wish me happy birthday on social media, so I have made a game of it.

01:46

There's still time to enter if you're listening because I usually wait until a week after, and anyone who gets the most creative way to say happy birthday, at least then

01:53

I can enjoy remembering that I'm a year older. Whoever wins that gets a free copy of What Do We Believe?,

02:02

and so always give something out for my birthday. That's kind of messed up, right? Most people get things on their birthday.

02:07

I give away things on my birthday, but I prefer that. So I am a year older. I just turned 26 today.

02:14

No, there was no laughing there. Okay. You guys were supposed to realize that I really am about 26, and our guest didn't even laugh.

02:23

He totally didn't even think, totally not buying into the fact that I'm really only 26 years old.

02:30

I can't believe it. But our guest today is Daniel Minnick. He is from the

02:35

Truth Espresso podcast. He obviously needs a lot of coffee with his truth, needs a heavy dose of that.

02:44

That's how I'm understanding his podcast. But we'll actually let him explain.

02:53

And then what we plan to do today, he's been doing a series of podcasts. Oh, okay.

02:58

Except for when he did one on the resurrection for Resurrection Sunday. Listen to it. But other than that one, he's been talking about banking and economics, and there's been a bunch of stuff that I've been learning through it.

03:09

So I asked him to come on. And so this may not be the typical type of thing. We're not talking theology.

03:15

However, I think there is stuff in here that has some theology. So welcome,

03:21

Daniel Minnick. Well, thank you, Andrew, for having me on The Wrap Report.

03:28

Yes, you get applause. I get nothing. I don't get it. What's up with that? So, well, I've enjoyed your podcast, but for folks who don't know who you are, don't know, maybe, okay, maybe there's people who haven't listened to your podcast.

03:43

I don't know why they haven't. It is one of the podcasts at the Christian Podcast Community, and they should have been listening.

03:50

But in case they haven't, introduce yourself, your background, your podcast, why you got into podcasting.

03:57

Well, my name is Daniel Minnick, and I am the host of the Truthspresso podcast. And at the

04:03

Truthspresso podcast, we talk, I seem to use the word we a lot when

04:09

I mean myself, but I talk a lot about theology. And with Truthspresso, I like to focus on the deeper side of things.

04:18

So when I talk about theology, I want to get in deep really to understand who

04:23

God is, the attributes of God and who Jesus Christ is and what he has done for us and to identify them biblically and deeply and also to get into economics and to understand how economics relates to the

04:41

Bible, because there's so much confusion out there in the world. And we see that confusion in economics ultimately leads to really bad policy.

04:52

And so I think it would be beneficial for Christians to understand what the

04:58

Bible teaches about economics and how it doesn't support a tyrannical government overseeing policy and money and that thereby, by approaching the

05:12

Bible, we can learn to be freer as we trust in God. And I guess about myself,

05:18

I am a software developer by trade. I work in the mortgage industry doing software development for mortgage document processing.

05:28

Doesn't sound very exciting, but it's a job. It gets the job done.

05:34

And I guess it might give me a little bit of maybe somewhat authority on the topic, even though I'm not a licensed personal financier, nor do

05:45

I have a degree in economics, but studying the Bible and economics, I think I can see that the

05:51

Bible has something to say about it. So you're going to be able to give us all of the great stock tips that are going to make us like be able to retire in a few years, right?

06:00

Isn't that's how it works? No. Even if I could, because I'm not a licensed financier, so I would have to give the caveat that to take what

06:13

I say with a grain of salt. But you never want to take financial advice from someone that is barely rubbing two pennies together, right?

06:24

I have a friend of mine, she is a real estate representative,

06:30

I forget what it's called, but real estate agent. Broker? Well, an agent, right? She takes people around to see houses, but she does it in Beverly Hills.

06:38

And so she drives around in a BMW, which is not what I expected. And I was talking to her, and she's like, well,

06:43

I have to. And you can't show up to a million -dollar home, two million, three million -dollar home with a client and have a

06:50

Honda Accord. They just, she's like, in that area, there's just a little bit difference in what you can do.

06:57

I'm like, okay. So let's get into some things because we have right now,

07:03

I think folks kind of realize we're living in some uncertain, unprecedented times.

07:09

I think that right now, there's the great unknown. I mean, you and I, as we're recording this, are still secluded in our homes and they haven't boarded up the doors yet, but I think they would like to for all the

07:21

Christians and let everyone else out, at least the medias and liberals would. But we're having people that are sitting at home, many not able to work, many are questioning what's going to happen when things get back to a new normal, because I don't think it's ever going to get back to what we were used to before.

07:40

And there's a lot of questions people have. And a lot of it is around economics.

07:46

What's my 401 going to be like? Can I retire? I mean, I know someone who he put in for retirement.

07:53

He is now at a point where he can't pull that back. And now with his 401k, it's like he doesn't know when, because in his field, he's got to put in for retirement six months to a year ahead of time.

08:07

And so you can never predict these things. And so now the question is, when your 401k takes a hit of 40%, it could be a big deal.

08:19

And so let me first, as I think about this with all the uncertain times, what is your thoughts as far as what the

08:27

Bible teaches when it comes to not just money, because we'll get into that, but I'm thinking more in our times right now.

08:34

The uncertainty of money, how much trust do we put in that? How much should financial decisions affect the things we put our time and energy to?

08:47

Well, I think if we understand the Bible's definition of money, then we understand what would affect purchasing power, the ability to buy goods and services, both in the present and in the future.

09:03

We would also understand when the Bible talks about false balances and unequal weights and measures, we can get an understanding of what happens when the government inflates the currency and how those, when we are paid our salaries, when we're on fixed incomes, especially when the government is passing $2 trillion stimulus packages, and a lot of people are looking to the government there for help and believing that, you know, we need that.

09:41

But if we have our trust in God, and especially not in the state, then we'd realize what the role of the state really should not be to manage this.

09:52

And as the state starts to erode our purchasing power, then we should look for ways to save our money and to buy things that will last.

10:05

You know, there's things like diversifying a little bit into, say, you know, a little bit of gold or silver to as an inflation hedge.

10:16

And there's also, because gold and silver is money in the Bible. And then, you know, if I'm not a financial advisor, but I would say, avoid speculative stocks, ones that you're buying low to sell high.

10:33

Now, you can short the market a little bit. If you were to, say, buy some oil stocks now as they're cheap, which buying the stocks would help recapitalize, and then looking to sell high a little later, you could do that.

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But realize that it's not, you know, short, you don't want to short it a few months, you know, you might need to short it, say, a few years.

10:59

But then I would say to look for stocks that have high dividend yields that pay dividends, because those stocks demonstrate successful business activity, that they actually are businesses that are functioning rather than operating on speculation.

11:19

Now, in your podcast, there's interesting because you brought up some the idea of inflation, you did an episode,

11:25

I think it was the one where you talked about monopoly money, which was, which really was a great way of illustrating you, you had said, why can't

11:33

I spend monopoly money? And you really explained the system. But I think it might have been in that one, you can correct me if I'm wrong.

11:40

But you explained with the, what we're going through right now, the government is just printing more money.

11:46

And people don't often think, people that don't have a background in this stuff may not understand why that could be a bad thing.

11:55

Right now, people are thinking, oh, if there's more money, hey, great, there's more for me. You know, as you just mentioned, a $2 trillion stimulus, where do they get that money from, right?

12:05

So you had mentioned on the podcast how the government printing money, just creating more currency, ends up affecting the economy in a negative way.

12:16

You just go into explaining that for folks. Well, let's start off with a basic example of, let's say the economy is 10 pencils.

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And then let's say that there are 10 coins also to circulate in the economy.

12:35

And so what happens if someone were able to create new coins, you know, so basically, if you have 10 pencils and 10 coins, each pencil would be worth one coin.

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So what happens if someone were able to introduce more coins into that simplistic economy?

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Let's say someone were able to double the supply of coins from 10 to 20.

13:01

Well, then how much would each pencil be worth? It would be worth, you'd have to pay two coins to get one pencil because of the laws of supply and demand and equilibrium there.

13:13

But as I explained about inflation, inflation is not just that the money supply increases.

13:23

Inflation is that basically, you have an authority over creating the money supply, which

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I believe the Bible does not provide that kind of authority to have some kind of central bank or government that can just create money out of nothing.

13:41

But what happens when an authority creates money, new money out of thin air and introduces it into the economy?

13:51

Well, who like think of the situation with a counterfeiter? Well, a counterfeiter creates new money, but what does the counterfeiter then do with it?

14:01

What's the purpose of counterfeiting new money? It's to spend it and buy things.

14:07

So what happens then when the counterfeiter is able to spend the new money he creates, he buys real wealth, real goods and services, the output of the labor of other people with money that is not worth anything.

14:24

And then this money circulates. And then by the time it gets to people who are not the first ones with access to that new money, they see the prices rise as money has circulated.

14:38

Now, since money is cheaper, the prices have to rise. And so those who are on fixed incomes see their livelihoods get more expensive, while those who created the new money, their livelihoods get better because they're able to buy up some of the wealth produced by the economy with their cheaper money.

15:00

And so essentially then the fact that the government produces more actually devalues the rest of the money we currently have.

15:08

Yes. So that's not sounding like a good thing then. Yeah, well, pretty much all the professional economists in almost all the universities will teach a form of economics that will tell you that that is good for us, that is good for the economy, because inflation is supposed to stimulate economic activity because it forces people to buy things as they see prices rise and as they're spending more money because prices rise, then that helps pay, you know, pay the stores, pay producers, it gives people jobs.

15:51

And so that's economic karma and action. So you think it's costing you more, but you're spending more of your hard -earned money to buy things, circulates money through the economy, grows the economy, and it eventually comes back to help you and your own wealth.

16:11

That's the teaching of the current economics. Now, one of the things we see in scripture very clearly is the fact that money itself is not an evil thing.

16:21

However, the love of money is. Now, we think about those two, money, as you said already, right, money helps us, the fact that we have money, we make money, we're able to do more things for other people, we're able to, you know, help churches and missionaries pay for things for our family, do all kinds of things like this.

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However, what's wrong with the love of money? Well, the love of money can lead people to do dishonest things, because the

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Bible says that, you know, it condemns dishonest gain. So honest gain is something that, you know,

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God actually considers a blessing when he tells Israel that he will bless them, and they will be lender to many nations, they won't borrow, but they'll lend out being able to lend out money shows that you've acquired enough wealth so that you're not dependent on all the money that you have, that you have surplus money to be able to lend out, which means, you know, you can give to charity, you can even charge interest on it, as you know,

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God said, the Israelites, they couldn't charge interest to each other as they're all family, but they could charge interest to foreigners.

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And so having money was a sign of God's blessing, which for Israel meant that they had to, you know, faithfully keep the law.

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So if they kept God's commandments, there is nothing wrong with honest gain and wealth.

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But if you but the love of money being the root of all kinds of evil, which, you know,

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Paul says, which while some some coveted after have forget how the verse goes, it, you know, it causes, you know, shipwreck.

18:07

Yeah. So, you know, the if you love money, you know, rather than, you know, wanting to be a blessing to people with it, even as someone who's wealthy, you might seek it out by dishonest gain robbing or in the case of, say, politicians, you know, they want secure cushy jobs and control of money and policy and to to be able to get wealth off the backs of other people through coercion and not through honest market exchanges and putting in their labor to make things happen and produce wealth.

18:46

So what do you think, in your opinion, should be the Christians view on money? I'd say the

18:52

Christians view on money, as we understand the Bible tells us in Genesis chapter two, that the gold of the land is good.

19:01

So we understand that God designed money in creation. And so God created money to be something to be a good in the economy that is that has its own properties, you know, other than just as a medium exchange, and then it has its limitations, too.

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And so money needs to be earned, honestly, there needs to be equal scales.

19:27

And money is something that, you know, and we'll get into, to, like marginal utility in a bit possibly, but the

19:35

Christians attitude toward money should first of all be to take care of themselves and their own family.

19:43

And then as they get surplus, then they can be a blessing to other people and to give to charity.

19:50

So, you know, money is a means to create wealth, which ultimately should be a means to help people.

19:58

So it sounds like you're saying that Christians should not have their sole interest in life is to make money.

20:05

No, you know, I've seen some Christians that are like that. And I see them, some

20:11

Christians who are so focused on making money that they start to drift away from God drift away from participating in the body of believers.

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And, you know, basically, yeah, they lose their focus on God sacrifice their prayer life.

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And, you know, money is a tool that God gave us money is a good on the market.

20:34

Money should not be what life is all about is Jesus says what profit is it to gain the whole world and lose your own soul.

20:45

So there's nothing wrong with wealth as long as you keep your perspective on God.

20:51

Yeah. And this is the thing that I've seen countless times. You know, when I do fund counseling, I've come to, especially within marriage, there's two areas that seem to be the biggest issues.

21:01

It's either communication issues or money issues. I mean, I don't know how many times that seems to be an issue.

21:09

And people have a different views of money. And a lot of it's going to be based on how they grew up, how they some what might be overspending for one person may not be for another.

21:21

And so when we look at that, I think that we always have to be careful as Christians when we judge others, because we are going to judge, we're commanded to judge by Christ, John 7, 24.

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But the question is, how do we judge? And when I think about when it comes to money, it's a hard, it's hard to figure out, like, we don't really know a person's heart to know, oh, they have a love for money.

21:45

They're just, it's not just what money's doing for them. They have a love for it. We can't really see that. And yet, I think that I often hear people that will look at someone and say, oh, well, he's just, he's spending too much on something.

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Or, you know, and it may be that that person has an overabundance. And yes, he might spend a lot on some areas, but he's also giving to charity, you know, giving to ministries.

22:08

And it's not affecting, like you were saying, there are those that it affects their walk. It affects whether they're going to work on a

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Sunday or go to church on a Sunday. And I've seen the guys who, you can almost see the guys that are sitting at church, and they're really still at work.

22:24

You know, they're sitting at church and they're taking notes, you know, in a daily planner.

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I actually used to have a guy that would go to, we went to church with, and he opened up a daily planner.

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And I'd always want to tell him is when I first started going to church, and I always want to be like, you know, are you here to worship God? Or is it just a kind of a time away from work where you can think about other things with work, you know?

22:48

So I think it's a really good point is the fact that we have to be mindful as Christians of this balance because we have to make money.

22:57

There are people who feed off the church. What I mean by that is there's people who believe they come to church because they want to, or they expect

23:06

Christians to help them out. It's one of the reasons I encourage churches. At our church, we've always had a policy, we don't give money.

23:16

We will give, if someone comes to church, we'll have people off to come off the streets, and they're coming looking for handouts, and we never gave anyone cash.

23:24

What we do is you need food, okay, we'll go to ShopRite, we'll give you some gift cards, we'll pay, you know, we'll give you that.

23:31

But you had to attend church. Not only did you have to attend church, but you had to sit down with one of the leaders, one of the pastors or the deacons, and we would sit down and share the gospel with you.

23:43

Now, if it's someone in the church, we had a deacon's fund, which is set aside for helping Christians.

23:48

But even there, you know, I had a policy that if you came and needed money, again, we don't give cash, but we'll take care of the needs, we'll pay an electric bill, things like that.

23:59

But if you came a second time in need, now it's time we start working on a budget, right?

24:04

So, many Christians, I find, don't understand the concept of, they're just too free on their spending.

24:12

They don't understand the concept of budgeting. Do you think that there is importance for Christians to understand, and if you could think of what the

24:20

Bible might say to the issue of budgeting and being wise in our spending? Well, let's see. Well, you know, we have the concept of preparing for a rainy day.

24:30

There's definitely a need for savings. And, you know, I'll probably get into, when

24:36

I get into biblical economic theory versus the modern theory, you know, the modern economists actually act like savings is an evil thing, and that savings destroys the economy.

24:50

But the Bible begs to differ. If we look at Proverbs 27 .1, it says,

24:57

Boast not yourself of tomorrow, for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.

25:03

And Proverbs 21 .20 says, There is treasure to be desired, and oil in the dwelling of the wise, but a foolish man spendeth it up.

25:14

And so, against modern economics, that basically acts like spending is king, and that the more you spend, the more you help the economy.

25:24

And it doesn't distinguish between good spending and bad spending. And as you said before about the, you know, one person's spending might be different from another person's spending.

25:38

You know, 1 Corinthians 4 .7 says, you know, who makes you to differ from one another, so that there are differences in needs and differences in function for people.

25:51

But the Bible definitely encourages savings, and you should budget, as you said, to determine how much money is good for you to spend to help the economy and to help yourself with any goods or services with which you might need to avail yourself.

26:13

But you don't spend all of it, because that's foolish, according to the Bible. You want to save, and spending should only come from savings.

26:25

We don't look to a debt engine to get the capital or the money that we need and be encouraged to spend it all for the false notion that it helps the economy and therefore helps ourselves.

26:42

All right, after this break, what I'd really like is if you could provide, you mentioned this biblical view of economics versus the world's view.

26:50

I'd like to break, I'd like to have you break that down a bit so that we better understand that right after this break.

26:59

Hello everyone, Daniel Minnick here. I host a podcast called

27:04

Truthspresso, and I am inviting you to join in. So what can you expect at Truthspresso?

27:11

Well, at Truthspresso, we wake up our minds every Monday with a robust shot of truth.

27:19

Let's dig deep in the Word of God as we get to know our God better together.

27:24

Let's challenge our view of the world as we take apart conventional politics with a fine -toothed comb.

27:32

See all that Truthspresso has to offer by going to www .truthspresso .com.

27:40

And by the way, Truthspresso is now a member podcast of the growing family of the

27:46

Christian Podcast Community. Check out other faith -building shows at christianpodcastcommunity .com,

27:54

hosted by Striving for Eternity Ministries. My name is

28:06

Andy Olson, and I want to tell you about Echo Zoi Radio. Echo Zoi Radio is a podcast outreach of Echo Zoi Ministries.

28:12

Every month, I find a knowledgeable guest to talk about an important and interesting topic that affects the Church today. We carefully balance the discussions of positive,

28:21

God -glorifying doctrines of Orthodox Christianity from a mostly Reformed point of view with exposés of heresy, false teaching, and poor practice that goes on throughout the

28:29

Church today. You can find us at echozoi .com. That's E -C -H -O -Z -O -I .com.

28:35

And both of those are part of the Christian Podcast Community. Check out the growing number of podcasts we have out there.

28:41

Go to christianpodcastcommunity .org. We are constantly adding new ones.

28:48

I believe by the end of this month, if not by next month, I think we're going to be at like 30 podcasts. So we are greatly encouraged by the folks that are interested in joining with us, and Daniel is one of those folks.

29:02

And so, Daniel, before we took the break, I was asking you if you would be able to just explain the difference between a biblical view of economics and compared to what we see in the world today.

29:13

Yes, Andrew. Well, to get to a biblical view of economics compared to the view currently in the world today and the universities today, we want to get really to the simple according to the

29:30

Bible, and then we can expand out from there. And so I know this is not a verse in the

29:36

Bible, but I'd say that economics is like an onion. We need to peel back the layers to get to the simple core.

29:45

And so the basic things about economics will seem obvious, but as we start adding some of these layers back on, as we grow in our understanding of economics, we see where the economics profession starts diverging from the

30:03

Bible and common sense. So economics starts with individuals making exchanges.

30:10

You know, didn't know that, right? So we make exchanges because of our differences.

30:17

And as I mentioned, 1 Corinthians 4, 7, the apostle Paul says, who makes you to differ from one another?

30:25

So we recognize that God is the one who makes each of us unique. Modern economics tries to squish everyone down into a cookie cutter human, vanilla human being doesn't recognize that we are all created equal as human beings, equal in worth before God, but different in our functions, our abilities, and because of our differences, the way

30:54

God made us, that facilitates exchanges. So Andrew, let me ask you a question.

31:01

When people make exchanges for things, say you have a barter situation, are the exchanges made for things of equal value or unequal value?

31:13

What do you think? Well, it depends. You'd want to say that it's going to be equal in the sense that it's an equal system.

31:23

But in another sense, it's not really. I mean, if you're going to have a system that's based on, say, the gold standard, well, that's going to be equal because it's based off a standard.

31:33

But if you're in a barter system, you may have someone who they can cut your hair and in exchange, you are a carpenter, you fix something around their house.

31:44

Now you might be able to charge $300 for your thing when he charges 20, but it was an exchange you had, but those might not be equal.

31:54

So I would say that it's going to depend on what the standard is, like if it's a barter system versus a gold standard or something like that.

32:00

So when two people make an exchange mutually, do they view those things as equal or unequal?

32:09

Well, in that case, in that individual exchange, so the case I gave, the guy cutting the hair, is to them it's an equal exchange because they're making that exchange for whatever is being exchanged, haircut versus carpentry work.

32:25

So yeah, in a sense, like we'd say it's a fair exchange, but in a sense, when people make an exchange of two things, whether it's money for a good or a good for a good or good for service, whatever, technically we would say that the exchange is unequal.

32:45

Now, I mean fair, but unequal, but unequal in a good way because if the things were not valued by the participants as unequal, then they would have no reason to make the exchange.

33:00

Like say, if I want to buy a lunch for $10, then I value that lunch more than I value the $10 that I have.

33:10

Otherwise, there'd be no reason to give up the $10 in exchange for the lunch.

33:16

So we actually make exchanges based on perceiving that we're gaining from the exchange.

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So we're getting something in return that's worth more to us more than the thing that we're giving up.

33:29

And so when two people agree and make an exchange, there could be fraud and so on, but perceptually they're both benefiting.

33:39

It's a win -win situation. And so the unequal exchange, it's saying in Genesis 34 10, the family of Jacob understood this in that, quote, the land shall be before you, dwell and trade ye therein and get you possessions therein, unquote.

33:58

So the idea of trade is actually to help people gain wealth.

34:05

Okay, now, but here's the problem. We live in a postmodern time where there is no absolutes. So why is it that money never seems to work with a postmodern thinking?

34:15

I mean, you don't have someone saying that here in your example, you go to get something to eat and it's $10 and I would not be able to get away with handing someone $2 and say, well, in my worldview, that's a $20 bill.

34:29

That's worth $20 and just walk out of the restaurant. They would arrest me, wouldn't they? So like in postmodern thinking, why doesn't this economics work?

34:39

Yeah, you definitely raised the point because like when people make exchanges, like according to the

34:47

Austrian school of economics, which I believe follows biblical economics, there's what's called subjective value.

34:56

Now that doesn't mean what you're talking about with postmodernism, like subjective value just refers to the differences that each individual has and their value scale for different things can be different for each of them versus the other person and that's why they make exchanges.

35:17

But obviously, as you're saying postmodern, like I as one party to an exchange can't get to define for the other person what that person's value is, you have to agree on it, which introduces an absolute, even if the value is subjective for the participants, there's still the absolute that one person can't impose a standard on another.

35:46

The exchange has to be mutual and they both put some kind of objective value to their end of the exchange.

35:57

Yeah, and this is the thing that I've always used as an example. I had a person who goes and evangelize on college campuses and they said, what do

36:04

I do with these postmodernists that think like there is no absolutes and your truth is your truth and my truth is my truth?

36:12

And I've said, ask them for their wallet and when they give it to you, just walk away and tell them that I identify this as my wallet and see how far they let you go.

36:22

Now granted, if you're evangelizing and you got an audio recorder going, that becomes helpful when the police come and say, they gave me the wallet,

36:30

I didn't take it. But what do they do? They stop people, right?

36:37

We can't have a fair system of trade if people are going to redefine the terms, if people are going to redefine the value of things.

36:48

There has to be a standard by which we can judge things. Now, I think like you were saying, there's either the standard of how valuable it is to me.

36:56

So if something's more valuable to me, more than someone else, I might be willing to pay more. But if you have the other way of having a set standard, that this is the value and it's compared to something else.

37:10

Now, there's lots of debate. I think we're some of this going on right now with this whole crisis, the coronavirus, we're seeing people complaining because people are selling to the highest bidder.

37:23

You have China that is making ventilators and things, and different countries and states are trying to buy them.

37:30

And they're saying, okay, we'll get into a contract with you for this much, but then someone else goes, well, I'll pay you more because I want them first.

37:37

And so it becomes a thing of, okay, if you're going to pay more, I'll go pay it to you. There are those who would say that's wrong, that you shouldn't allow the supply or the demand to affect it.

37:51

They believe that everything should have an equal value and the government should control that and everyone just gets paid an equal amount regardless of what they do, and that it should just be fair to everyone.

38:05

What are your views on those kind of extremes, and which do you think would be more of a biblical model that we should try to set up?

38:14

Well, of course, I'd say the biblical model is always to recognize people's needs.

38:24

First John says that if you have this world's good and see your brother have need and shut up your your compassion from him, how does the love of the

38:36

Father dwell in you? So Christians, we do have our moral standard, but there's also the issues of supply and demand, and it can actually introduce moral hazard when you try to interfere with the market signals that supply and demand introduce, because it can be a tough sell to try to explain to people, especially from an

39:07

Austrian school understanding, which I believe is the biblical understanding, that so -called price gouging, trying to regulate price gouging actually ends up harming people, and how does that work?

39:24

Well, if we think of the wage and price controls in the 1970s, we think of the stagflation that was going on at that time.

39:36

Well, when the government was trying to prevent, let's say, the wages were going down, they were trying to keep wage rates up.

39:47

Well, in the process of forcing wages to stay at a certain level, it ends up making some people unemployable, and so some people would be better off making, you know, less money rather than being out of a job, and so also when you have price controls, you end up rationing goods and causing supply shocks, which can make some people not be able to get what they need at all, because the supply is suppressed to keep the price from going up from increased demand.

40:22

Now, some people, you know, with their savings, they might be willing to, like, think of the toilet paper situation with the coronavirus, you know.

40:33

What toilet paper? I can't find any. Yeah, I mean, think of, okay, let's bring the scenario of that.

40:40

Now, some people hoarded toilet paper earlier on. Now, you know, the question of why they did that might be a moral issue on their behalf that they might have to answer to God for the reasons they did it, but let's just say the government tried to force that not to happen.

41:03

Well, let's, you know, see what do we have when someone hoards toilet paper?

41:09

Yeah, there are some people who might go without, but what happens when someone hoards it?

41:15

Well, they have a surplus of toilet paper that they really can't use immediately, and so either they've hoarded it now and they're going to have supply for themselves later on, which means that they won't be, they won't have a need to buy in the future, and therefore, because they were hoarding, production will ramp up because of the increased demand and eventually replenish supply for those who were actually, you know, being conservative and waiting, then they'll be able to get the supply that they need later on and more of it because the ones who hoarded it will have no reason to buy more for a while.

41:57

And what about those who maybe hoarded it, thinking like the stock market, they could buy low and then sell high?

42:05

Well, some people, a lot of people realize they don't need the toilet paper as much as they thought they did, and so if someone's trying to sell a package for, you know, say six rolls for $50, some people will realize

42:21

I don't really need it that badly, and so I'm going to conserve my money and, you know, try to conserve my usage, and as they save up money, they'll be able to buy more in the future, and then those who hoarded the toilet paper will realize it wasn't as lucrative as they thought it would be, so now they have excess supply and they're going to have to lower their prices to get people to buy it, and so eventually they have to liquidate their inventory or use it themselves, and so supply and demand will always level off where the factors of production are in place to, you know, bring supply and demand back into healthy equilibrium.

43:07

You know, we saw that with the ventilators and the masks and all those things, that just as an example, when there was a demand for this stuff, what happened?

43:17

You have car manufacturers that say, okay, we can produce ventilators, we could remanufacture our equipment, then instead of producing cars, we'll make ventilators, because there wasn't as much a need for cars right now, but there is for ventilators, and they can make their money, and it was interesting because there were a bunch of people that were arguing, well, that's wrong, that the companies should just donate the ventilators, not sell them, and somehow they it's like wrong that they're making a profit off of this situation, and there were people who argued that the government should just come in and force these companies to do this, but there is a real simple reason,

43:54

I believe, that right now America is the place where everyone's getting ventilators, like everyone's coming to us because we're able to, because of the capitalism we have, it was in the best interest of businesses to retool their industry to satisfy a need that's out there, when they have another need that isn't being satisfied, there's no demand for it because of this, so shift gears to something that you can produce, otherwise we're getting it all from China, I mean, that's where most of this stuff was coming from, because that's where the world, a lot of the world is going to, because when you force a business to say, okay, you're going to make this for us, there's not the same incentive for them to go in and try to redo everything as it is for a business that goes, well, let's see, if we don't do anything, we have to lay people off, but if we retool things, we're still employing people, and we're still staying in business and keeping people employed, well, clearly,

44:54

I think the latter is a better view, and it's supplying things for folks, and yet so many people in this country seem to think, well, if we go to socialism, that's just fair, that's just better,

45:06

I mean, I always laugh, you have Bernie Sanders, right, he's the best known socialist in America right now, and here he is, he makes all this money on his book deals, he's now a millionaire, and even

45:18

Michael Bloomberg made the comment that he was against millionaires till he became one, and then he was against billionaires, and I remember him being interviewed, and it was like he complains about all these tax loopholes that the rich get to take advantage of, and he took advantage of them, and someone was asking him, why don't you lead by example and give away this money, why are you taking advantage of the tax system to pay less taxes, and he's like, well, why wouldn't

45:46

I, it's there, you know, and this is where it always breaks down for people, is they, so many of these people think that these systems work well for others, but they never want to employ them for themselves, you know, this is the thing that I end up seeing with, when we look at economies, it is different, there are differing views, but the biblical model is the one that seems to be able to work over and over again for the prosperity of the people, not all people,

46:15

I mean, there's going to be people, even America with capitalism, you had people who struggled, but it seems over time that it's a better system to allow people to excel to what they can do.

46:28

When we think about the economy, we think about money and the way it's used politically, how do you see that combination of politics and economics, because they seem to, in my mind, have a strong influence one to another.

46:44

Yeah, you mentioned Bernie Sanders and his book sales, yeah, it's interesting how he made, you know, he's now a millionaire because of sales of bad information, but you know.

46:57

And he doesn't mind having three houses either, by the way, you know, he can have that. So his defense is that he earned, earned it rightly, what, through writing books about socialism, but then, you know, those who actually produce products, you know, that actually help people and make money that way, somehow they're evil because they made lots of money, but not for writing ideals really against, you know, how he made his money in the first place.

47:27

Yeah, so he made his money writing about ideals he doesn't practice. Why would anyone read his books?

47:34

I mean, it goes back to like, you don't get financial advice from a guy who can't rub two pennies together.

47:40

If he can't rub the pennies together, it's a problem, you know, he's got to figure out his own income first, right?

47:46

Yeah, so you mentioned socialism or, you know, or, you know, say even communism, like what's so -called public ownership of property.

47:56

Do you believe that the Bible teaches socialism or communism, or do you think it teaches some form of enterprise where people are allowed to own property and enjoy the fruits of their labor?

48:12

Well, I think when we think about this, the most known passage that I could think of that people try to use to argue for the practice of socialism in the

48:21

Bible is going to be in Acts chapter 2, 44 and 45.

48:27

And all who believed were together, and they had all things in common, and they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributed to the proceeds to all as they had need.

48:42

And so we all say, see, this is socialism right here. They sell all their possessions and give to everyone who has need.

48:48

But there's a big difference in that verse and socialism. Socialism, the government dictates that you give to everyone in need.

48:58

In that case there, people sold their own goods, made the profit, and then gave to those in need.

49:05

And in fact, you ended up seeing shortly after that, Barnabas will end up doing that, and then

49:11

Anacin Savira will attempt to do a similar thing. But they end up dying because of the fact that they didn't give it fairly.

49:19

They lied about it. So God was more concerned about the truthfulness than he was the money.

49:26

And so I don't think that socialism is a proper biblical economic.

49:33

I think that God says that we take care of one another out of what God provides for us, but it's still ours.

49:41

The Bible still speaks of ownership. And this is why I think as you study history in ancient times,

49:48

Israel was the first known country or empire, whatever you might want to call it, it was the first known group of a country that had a middle class.

50:01

You had typically a wealthy class and a poor class. And if you think about the way, even the way they would have with the nobles, they were supposed to have a responsibility to generate work for the people to work and be able to keep a living.

50:18

And as the workers would work, it would generate money for the nobles, and they can continue to pay people so that they work.

50:25

But it always had this notion that there were the rich and the poor.

50:30

And when you see biblical principles implied, there's always a middle class. And the wealthy that want to try to control people always want to get rid of the middle class.

50:44

You're seeing that even in America. The middle class always gets hurt. We just had this stimulus package.

50:49

Who gets it? Well, it's either the business owners or the poor. If you're in the middle middle class or upper middle class, you're probably not going to get much of that.

51:02

And so that becomes an issue that I think you end up seeing is they always need to keep a few people with the money because if there's only a few people with the money, they can control things.

51:13

And so that's why you always see the political systems try to get rid of or reduce the middle class and keep the money in the hands of few.

51:22

And they'd prefer that in the hands of government where they can then control everything. Yeah, exactly.

51:27

And that entices the many who are poor to come to the government and vote for policies that advocate redistribution of wealth from those who produce and earn it to those who don't produce it and don't earn it.

51:44

You mentioned Ananias and Sapphira and what was the condemnation that they lied to the

51:50

Holy Spirit. And even as they're participating in what has been misunderstood as a communistic system or socialistic system in the early church,

52:01

Peter told them that, you know, was it not your own and wasn't it in your own power?

52:09

You know, so he acknowledged that it was the choice that they made to sell the property, so they actually owned it.

52:15

They were not under any compulsion to sell the property. So going back to the

52:23

Bible and understanding that it clearly teaches private property or ownership, if we look at, you know, the

52:33

Decalogue, the Law of Moses on the tablets, Exodus 20, 14 through 17, you know, thou shalt not commit adultery.

52:43

What does that mean? You know, you're you're having an affair with a wife that belongs to another man.

52:51

Thou shalt not steal. So how do you define that unless there's actual property ownership?

52:57

You know, thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. And as I've read commentaries that usually has to do with people lying, trying to, you know, basically dispute claims of ownership to get what their neighbor has.

53:12

And then, of course, the big one, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is thy neighbor.

53:27

So clearly the Bible argues, you know, even the idea of coveting, like you're not even supposed to desire inside something that belongs to someone else.

53:39

So what is covetousness? It's desiring what other people have to which you either have no right or you have not earned it.

53:47

And the Bible says a lot about covetousness, which proves that it advocates ownership of property.

53:55

The apostle Paul said in Romans 7, 7, that he, you know, Paul, he didn't even realize that he was a lawbreaker until he came to grips with the fact that the law said thou shalt not covet.

54:09

Ephesians 5, 5 and Colossians 3, 5 actually equate covetousness with idolatry.

54:16

So what does that mean? It makes covetousness a violation of both tables of the law.

54:23

Romans 1, 28 through 32 includes covetousness in a list of sins that describe a reprobate mind and a list that are called worthy of death.

54:35

Ouch. 1 Corinthians 5, 11, Paul says we are to separate from covetous people and avoid fellowshipping with them.

54:44

Ephesians 5, 3, he says not to let covetousness once be named among the saints.

54:51

And then finally, 1 Corinthians 6, 10 and Ephesians 5, 5 both mentioned covetousness as an attribute of people who do not inherit the kingdom of God.

55:04

So if God were a socialist and expected everyone to be equal in possessions and outcome, there would be no reason for all these, the command and all this emphasis against coveting being a sin, because, you know, your neighbor would have the same as what you would have.

55:23

So why would you be coveting? One of the things that I think about is back in the early 1900s, there was the whole argument with the fundamentals where they pulled out of society.

55:34

Think of them, you know, really the key pin was the Scopes -Monkey trial. And they pulled out of schools, they pulled out of culture.

55:42

It used to be the church that took care of those in need. People, when they had a need, went to the church.

55:49

The church would find people work. The church would take care of the widows. The church would take care of the welfare.

55:55

The church would take care of education. People were educated by the church. It was a church that ran the schools so that they would be able to read their own

56:04

Bible. That was the goal of it. And so we ended up seeing that the church gave that up to the government, and the church was going to do a much better job of handling these things than the government will.

56:16

We see the waste, we see the abuse that occurs now that the government has taken it over.

56:21

And I think that the church bemoans the fact of, oh, look at the way our country's going. But the church gave that up.

56:29

You know, now that the people turn to the government when they have need and not the church, they're going to make sure that the government is protected and not the church.

56:39

And I think that many of a century ago didn't think through those issues when they said, well, if you're not going to, you know, you're going to work against us, we're going to pick up our toys and go home.

56:50

And they did. They picked up the toys, went home, and they've created a vacuum that the humanists said, we'll fill that.

56:58

And that's what we have now. That's why socialism is the case. You know,

57:03

I've shared this here on this podcast before. Maybe this would be a way of kind of wrapping some things up. But, you know,

57:09

Daniel, I'm sure you remember back in the day when we had the one percenters and the whole movement for the

57:17

Occupy Wall Street. And, you know, I've told people, I know for a fact that Occupy Wall Street was not something that started over a

57:26

Thursday afternoon Facebook post. And I had someone that challenged me and said, how can you say you know that for sure?

57:32

I said, because I was invited to the meeting like three months prior. Yeah, they actually had meetings three months before to plan it out.

57:42

I was involved because of the fact that I do a lot of street ministry in New York City. They thought that they could woo me in to be a voice of religion to be able to help with this movement they were trying to create.

57:56

And so they invited me in. So, yeah, I was invited into these meetings long before that Thursday afternoon thing.

58:03

You know, the reality is, is when I sat there and I was involved with this and I would be on the streets evangelizing to these people,

58:10

I remember turning to this one lady, this young lady was she was up from Florida, I believe.

58:18

But she was working on her degree to become a medical doctor. And she had a perfect 4 .0,

58:27

straight A's. And she had a full ride scholarship as long as she maintained a 4 .0,

58:33

she got a full ride. Now, keep in mind, she's up here protesting that it's not fair that people, you know, like Apple is not just giving away their products.

58:43

They should do that out of the goodness of their own heart. And I said, what would be the incentive for them to keep producing new products then?

58:51

There's none. You remove that. Is it really fair to say that their hard earned their work shouldn't be repaid to the level of risk that they're taking?

59:02

And she totally disagreed. And I couldn't seem to reason with her. So I figured, let me try to work in a way she could understand.

59:08

I said, listen, you're you got a full ride scholarship, don't you? She said, yeah. I said, so you don't have to work on the side?

59:15

She says, no, I have. It's hard enough for me to do my schoolwork. I said, but don't you think that's unfair to that person who doesn't have a scholarship?

59:23

And because of that, they have to not only do the same hard work you do, but they have to work a job to pay for their education.

59:31

Don't you think that at a minimum you should give up some of your A's to their

59:36

C's so you both could get B's? She goes, no, I can't do that. I would lose my scholarship.

59:42

I said, well, don't you think at a minimum you should give up some of that scholarship money to them so that you both work an equal amount and you both get the same math scholarship and then you could both get

59:54

B's? That would be fair. And she goes, but then when I graduate, I wouldn't be able to get as good of a job.

01:00:01

The irony is, as we were walking through this, I kept pushing it and she never could see. Because even with the better job,

01:00:08

I said, but that's not fair to the person who couldn't get the better job because they had to work their way through school. Don't you think you should give them that equal job and you both take a job together and maybe you have to get paid half?

01:00:21

She could never see that when it came to her personal life, she didn't employ the very things she wanted employed for everyone else.

01:00:31

And really what it comes down to is when you look at socialism and these different economic systems we're talking about, we talked about the biblical one, but the other one that we look at is based on selfishness.

01:00:42

It really comes down to if I can steal from the rich to give me more,

01:00:47

I'll do it. But I think as long as I'm poor, the rich should give them of their own.

01:00:53

That's really what it comes down to. It's a selfish, it's a sinful desire for a love of money for let me get it any way that I can.

01:01:02

And that's really the problem I see with a lot of the economics. Now, as we wrap up, just anything you want to add, even

01:01:09

I know you may want to promote your podcast or talk about anything you got coming up there.

01:01:15

Okay. Well, I guess I have way too many notes for this discussion. Let's see.

01:01:22

So yeah, you mentioned - Well, you do have your own podcast that folks should be listening to because I think you have, are you five or six episodes into economics?

01:01:31

I forget the count. So yeah, probably around there. So yeah,

01:01:37

I definitely probably belabored the notes for this discussion because I didn't know where we're going to go.

01:01:45

But as a benefit of that, I will have notes for quite a few episodes of Truthsprowsal to come.

01:01:53

But do we get credit for that? These notes provided by the Rapp Report? We'll see.

01:01:58

The Rapp Report was kind of a stimulus package for me to create notes for episodes.

01:02:06

There you go. That's a good use of the economic terminology. So I have a verse, you know, we have what,

01:02:17

I think the national debt crossed 24 trillion a few days ago. I have a verse from the

01:02:24

Bible about the national debt. Want to hear it? Sure. Okay.

01:02:29

So Psalm 37, 21, the wicked borroweth and payeth not again, but the righteous showeth mercy and giveth.

01:02:39

So those who are borrowing and not paying back, which shows deficit spending, the national debt, according to the

01:02:48

Bible, they're wicked. That's not a nice thing to say. Okay.

01:02:55

And you know, this is the thing that we end up seeing though, is when we look at something like economics,

01:03:02

I think maybe it's helpful for folks to realize there is morality in play here. There are biblical principles in play here.

01:03:08

And I know you've gone on your podcast and you explain this in a lot of detail, which is why,

01:03:14

I mean, I've been enjoying it because I get to, I've learned a lot. And things I really didn't think through, like,

01:03:21

I mean, I'll go back to the episode you did on how the banking system works, the different views of the banking system itself.

01:03:29

And there was just so much there that I hadn't really thought through, but it helps me to think through these things.

01:03:36

Because I think as we look in these uncertain times that are ahead of us, we're already seeing people who are trying to find how they can abuse other human beings to take advantage of them through this crisis, using the crisis as a means of taking advantage of someone else.

01:03:53

And this is what we're going to see more of, unfortunately, because this is what people do in bad economic times.

01:04:00

There are always those who, because of selfish means and the love of money, will try to abuse their fellow man.

01:04:08

And it's a sin against God to do that. But we have to expect that's going to happen.

01:04:14

But as Christians, we're held to a higher standard. And even though others may do that, and even though there may be opportunities for us to take advantage of the system, that doesn't mean we should.

01:04:24

My wife and I, you know, they offered, you know, these different things, the unemployment and stuff like that.

01:04:30

And my wife and I weren't going, you know, my wife ended up getting laid off. But it was only until she, you know, she actually didn't apply for the unemployment because he was going to try to find some work.

01:04:44

And then eventually he just said, I'm not going to be able to get work for you, you know, go on unemployment. We didn't just go for the unemployment right away, just because, and actually, unfortunately, the way they're doing it, they're paying her more than she made when she was working.

01:04:57

It's an incentive not to work. And unfortunately, there's no way for us to opt out of that.

01:05:02

If there was a way for us to opt out and say, look, we should not, she should not get paid more than what she was making, then we would do that.

01:05:10

And I, you know, I think that as Christians, we shouldn't be taking advantage of the system just because we can.

01:05:17

We need to be, we are held to a higher standard. And I think that in these uncertain times, it may mean that we don't make as much as we could, if we're being a little bit more selfish, but we have to honor

01:05:31

God first. I think as Christians, that's what we have to do. Any last words you have, Daniel?

01:05:37

Okay, well, as I will, you know, look forward to episodes of True Espresso, when

01:05:43

I will really get into economics, you know, starting from the ground up, but eventually

01:05:50

I'll get into Keynesian economics and just in passing, because Keynesian economics is what's taught in all the universities.

01:05:59

In passing, in a preface to a German edition of Keynes' General Theory in 1936, the

01:06:08

German edition, Keynes said, nevertheless, you know, my theory can be much easier adapted to the conditions of a totalitarian state than, you know, laissez -faire economics.

01:06:22

And that's what Keynes said in the German edition in 1936, when we know what was going on at that time.

01:06:29

And this is the economic theory that has taken the policy of virtually every developed nation by storm, and it turns truth on its head.

01:06:39

So I hope you'll look forward to me explaining that. Isaiah 5, verses 20 through 21, says, "...woe

01:06:48

unto them that call evil good, and good evil, that put darkness for light, and light for darkness, that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

01:06:57

Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight !"

01:07:02

And, you know, people are looking for a king, just as 1

01:07:08

Samuel chapter 8 talks about. The Israelites wanted a king to be like other nations, but it subjected them to higher taxes and indentured servitude, just like the heathen nations.

01:07:22

And it seems that the USA has fallen prey to this. People are willing to give up the freedom that the

01:07:29

Bible tells them they can have in God for security. But Psalm 20, verse 7, says, "...some

01:07:37

trust in chariots, and some in horses. But we will remember the name of the

01:07:43

Lord our God." And as I will argue in episodes of True Espresso, when we talk about biblical economics, if a nation followed biblical economics, there would be no crippling economy -wide depressions.

01:07:58

There would be no industry -wide speculation bandwagons, and no asset class bubbles, no boom -bust cycles like the housing bubble that robbed millions of their ill -fated jobs.

01:08:11

If a nation followed biblical economics, the economy would grow at a healthy pace without the roller coaster activity we see today.

01:08:20

If a nation followed biblical economics, there would be no 24 trillion dollar national debt and climbing.

01:08:28

We would have no incentives against stronger families, as the

01:08:33

Great Society under Lyndon Johnson pretty much destroyed the family unit with the welfare programs.

01:08:41

The government would be tiny. We would be freer and more prosperous. So I hope this discussion will help

01:08:48

Christians to have a keener interest in biblical and freer economics, and to trust

01:08:54

God rather than the state. Well, I agree with that. And folks, I do, if you've,

01:09:00

I believe, because we're recording this earlier in the week, but I think

01:09:05

I've probably dropped a bonus episode that you already listened to. And in that episode, you would have heard about a special deal, hopefully, that we have with Living Waters.

01:09:17

So we will give that, at least, we'll make sure we'll have that in the next episode for sure. But we'll have,

01:09:24

I'll put some information in the show notes if we can, but they're working on something special.

01:09:30

I can say this though, this part has been made public that already at the time that we're recording this, if you go to the

01:09:38

Living Waters website and check out their conference they're having, Living Waters is doing the same thing that we're doing for folks who don't know.

01:09:49

We're going to be doing a conference. We're looking to do it May 30th, I believe, Justin Peters and myself, and with everyone being at home, everyone being stuck, ministries are trying to find creative ways to minister to people.

01:10:03

And Living Waters is going to be doing a conference called the Home Conference, April 20th to 24th.

01:10:08

That is starting tomorrow from the airing of this podcast. So make sure you check that out.

01:10:14

If you missed that, they're going to be doing theirs one hour a day,

01:10:19

Monday through Friday, Kirk Cameron, Emile Zwane, Ray Comfort, Mark Spence, and Jim Wallace, Jay Warner Wallace.

01:10:28

And so they'll all be speaking. And that will be something they're doing one hour each day through Zoom.

01:10:34

And you get a Q &A afterwards. We will be doing a Striving for Eternity. We're going to do the conference that Justin and I did out in the

01:10:41

Philippines, the Snatch Them from the Flames. It is a discernment conference. We will give basically four sessions and then

01:10:48

Q &A. We're going to start off on, it's going to be Saturday morning, starting off. First thing,

01:10:54

Justin is going to talk about the sufficiency of Scripture. I'm going to be teaching on how to interpret the

01:11:02

Scripture. Justin's going to take some talks in the afternoon after lunch on dealing with how to discern false teachers.

01:11:10

And then I will do a session on, from the Book of Jude, on how to identify false teachers.

01:11:16

And then we're going have Q &A. So I hope that you'll check that out. We'll have more details in the future on that, how to register for Snatch Them from the

01:11:24

Flames home version. And that's going to be something that we want to make available for folks. I should say that the home conference that Living Orders is doing is $25.

01:11:34

And the one that we're doing, the Snatch Them from the Flames home version will be free.

01:11:39

And so we'll get you more details on that in the later episodes of the Wrap Report. So just wanted to let you guys know that.

01:11:47

But I do hope that you enjoyed the bonus episode that hasn't been recorded yet, but will by the time you hear this.

01:11:55

So it's kind of like going back in time. But Daniel, thanks for coming on. I love learning from you.

01:12:01

There's a whole bunch that you have in that brain of yours that is, you know, I'm waiting for the future episodes to get more of this out.

01:12:09

It's really neat to think about. I mean, these are areas we don't often think about. So I really appreciate you coming on.

01:12:16

Daniel Thank you, Andrew, for having me on, and I really hope that Christians will look forward to learning more about biblical economics and how common sense it is and that the worldview of the world will be dismantled and lives will, and with this information, lives will be bettered for the glory of God.

01:12:38

And so with that, I mean, folks, go get your shot of truth over at Truth Espresso.

01:12:45

Go find on any podcast app, download Truth Espresso. If you're not sure how to spell it or you want to look at past episodes, just go to christianpodcastcommunity .org

01:12:57

and go to the shows, find Truth Espresso, and you can see all of his past episodes there. And until next week, this is a wrap.

01:13:06

This podcast is part of the Striving for Eternity ministry. For more content or to request a speaker or seminar to your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

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