F. LaGard Smith's Anti-Calvinism

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James White And welcome to the dividing line Thursday Afternoon, I keep looking down at the bottom of my screen for my doc on my

Mac and this isn't a Mac So it doesn't have a doc. It's nothing there I was looking down there because there's this little thing that tells you the exact date

Which is the 19th of March 2009 last day of winter officially

That's for us here in in Arizona. It's like right we schedule winter in for like about three days in January and that was about it and It's gonna be 90 91 degrees here today something like that I'm gonna cool off for the weekend down the 70s again, but it'll pop right back up.

So The heat's coming we know it we're all breaking out our summer clothes and that's just how it is and that's okay with me

I'm not complaining about that. In fact this morning. I was enjoying that beautiful weather

So as to be able to Listen to a number of things. I have an article due for CRI in about 11 days on the importance of Inerrancy and specifically in regards to the events related to Peter Enns at Westminster Seminary and does inerrancy still matter and That's actually not just a little article.

That's a full -size article So I'll be able to actually develop a few ideas in the process So I was listening to an interview on NPR with Peter Enns.

It's amazing NPR never calls me I've not figured that part out But if you get kicked out of a seminary you get called by NPR if you well, okay

If you mutually agree after having been suspended by the board

To leave a seminary you get called by NPR and if you're Bart Ehrman you get called by NPR But if you actually happen to believe in stuff, then you don't get called by NPR But anyway, then after that I started listening to the series that took place last year

Chris Arnzen had asked me to do an online An on -air debate with Efflegard Smith over his book troubling questions for Calvinists and all the rest of us and I just didn't have the time to work that in Just he wanted to do it really really quickly and I just didn't have have time to do it but since then he's indicated that it would be good to still consider possibility of doing that in the future and so what

I did is I Downloaded the Debate that took place on iron sharpens iron and today

I listened to the first program which was just Efflegard Smith by himself with Chris Arnzen and The callers and I found it rather fascinating and I thought

I would comment on some of the things I heard today I also dug out the book that Dr.

Smith sent to me. I did find it somewhat Humorous that it was mentioned that the last that he had retired but that the last place he had taught was

Liberty University Yes, I'm sure that Ergun canner very much

Enjoyed that I am before play these I'm a little troubled because as I was looking through the book

I I very quickly discovered that. Dr. Smith does not believe in original sin and That's a pretty major whoops

Or heresy actually To and and his way around Romans 5 is unique, but easily refuted

I believe because he has just completely missed the point that Paul is presenting two humanities one in Adam one in Christ Everyone is an

Adam only those who are the elect are in Christ and it doesn't really deal with that. But anyway,

I Want to comment on some of these things and listen to some of the some of the that first program and comment on that interestingly enough our first caller is relevant to this, but let's go ahead and at least get the topic started and Let's listen to the very beginning the program where Chris basically asks

Efflegard Smith. All right. What's your big problem with Calvinism in? result of The belief system known as Calvinism that millions if not billions of souls who have lived and who will live

Are from even before the time they are born Condemned to damnation eternally without any choice on their part whatsoever and that Really that runs counter to What I consider to be the most central theme of the scripture, which is that?

Christ came into the world To save all mankind from sin and that everybody has a choice

To either accept Christ or not to accept Christ and that is an unfudged

Absolute free will choice That is not conditioned about anything that happened in eternity before the creation

Now there's there's what's from dr Efflegard Smith's perspective is most offensive about Calvinism Is this idea that these billions of souls are condemned without any choice on their own part and a

Calvinist sits there? and goes Who who do you are you offended at what?

These people don't aren't sinners. These people don't love their sin. They don't choose to sin. They don't continue in their rebellion.

It's God What what what's that? They were is are you do you seriously believe that God would force them to do these things?

well, that's why I don't like that original sin thing, you know, you've fallen Adam and and so on so forth, but notice that the presentation of absolute autonomy as being absolutely necessary in dr.

Smith's position man has to have a Every man has an equal chance and I'm like, well, wait a minute.

Wait a minute. Every man has an equal chance a Person living in Texas has the equal chance with a person living in Riyadh to accept

Jesus Not exactly and in fact, that's gonna come up later on when Chris is gonna ask him about this issue of fairness and it's funny

He's gonna say well, we know we really can't judge God's fairness and yet he's doing that exactly here the idea that Every person is treated exactly the same is just just there's there's no merit to it because obviously that is not the case at all

But this idea that there is nothing This decision is completely free from anything that happened in eternity

Let's just think for just a moment Let's let's go into a biblical time frame and let's think about David Let's let's look at a

Samuel and Someone who's living at the same time outside the borders of Israel in amongst the

Philistines Are you gonna tell me that when Samuel is born? with godly parents who take him to the tabernacle and Dedicate him to the service of God That he has the same quote -unquote.

There's nothing back in eternity that has an influence that in comparison to The pagan child who's maybe whose brother is offered in sacrifice to Moloch There there was nothing in eternity about that It concerns me a little bit.

I haven't had chance to finish reading the section I was reading a portion of the book where Dr.

Smith was dealing with this idea of Open theism and It does strike me as somewhat odd How he's dealing with it?

he he He really struggles to Find a way for God to have knowledge of future events without ordaining them

And he doesn't seem to understand that if God has perfect knowledge of future events, but did not ordain them then they took place

Without his control over them and He wants to have a partial control.

He talks about well, let me just read this as a section for you I think it's relevant Another way of putting it putting this is to ask is for knowledge tantamount to for ordination as Calvinist would affirm suppose for a moment that in the vast reaches of eternity before time began

God had the divine ability to get into a time machine and Set the data head to June 6th 1944 suddenly their

God is looking down on Omaha Beach watching the Americans fighting their way onto the shore against formidable German resistance

Assume also that God is simply there as a neutral observer Contrary to the claim of virtually all combatants that God is on our side and our supposed hypothetical

God's God's hand isn't in the conflict either way Is there anything about the mere fact that God is able to watch the

D -Day landings from his time machine that? Necessarily determines whether or not the invasion will be a success

Is there any theoretical reason why the Germans might not have won the battle for Normandy and ultimately the war itself?

And if in fact does it happen isn't that outcome instead of an allied victory what God would have witnessed?

Now you see all of time here is existing outside of God's knowledge. God is having to take knowledge in This is not only a problem with the

Asserting putting God into the timeline so that he's observing, but this would absolutely require that God learns things that God takes in knowledge and This takes us back again logically to the necessity of the idea that God Tossed the cosmic dice what came out came out

God wins yee -haw so why should we glorify him? He tossed the cosmic dice and even then you still you still have to deal with the fact that this this initial objection

That I just played for you is an objection that he has to deal with as well Because if he believes that when

God created God did know everything's gonna happen in the future And it doesn't seem that he wants to go the open theist direction in his book

I could be wrong about that, but didn't seem like it but unless he's willing to go the open theist direction when

God created God did know all those billions of souls that were going to be lost in hell for eternity and if he didn't have a purpose in creating them then you're left with the the horrible specter of Consistent Arminianism and that is a

God who creates all this absolutely unnecessary evil Just simply to pander to man's sovereign will

I would much rather have a God who creates purposeful evil to glorify himself than a God who causes it tosses the cosmic dice and Creates all this senseless evil for absolutely no reason whatsoever other than to pander to man's will

I go back to the book here Of course if we change our hypothetical to assume that God really was on the side of the

Allies and despite the odds had Already foreordained that the Americans would take Omaha Beach nothing in all the world could have changed the outcome

In that instance what God would have witnessed is what God already wanted what he had decreed

What he had purpose plan and provided and were that the case is eternal foreknowledge would have been based directly upon what he had foreordained

Now let me just point something out what happened on Omaha Beach was the result of free agents acting

There were some men who acted as heroes. There were some men who acted in pure cowardice

There were some men who acted with compassion there are some men who acted with hatred But there are people who became

Christians because of what happened on Omaha Beach the one thing That efflegard -smith wants to avoid

Having any sovereign control over the one thing is the one thing that God glorifies himself most fully and in that salvation

He doesn't have any problem with God controlling nations, but the problem is to control nations after control individuals There has to be a sovereign decree there

So listen to this next next paragraph But do you not agree? That it is only by adding our second assumption that is that God has a purpose and what happens in Omaha Beach That only by adding our second assumption that we get this particular connection between foreknowledge and for donation as we plainly saw no such connection is

Logically necessary. Well, I don't think we plainly saw that at all Because the the idea of a time machine

Not only isn't relevant to God's eternal nature, but it also ignores the fact that that perspective requires that God learn that God come to possess knowledge from outside of himself and again a

Fundamental violation of an understanding of the eternal nature of of God And so it is it is the same thing later on when he talks about Romans not eight and foreknowledge we may get to that but that's subject today and our first caller actually is

Right on that subject. So we'll go ahead and take the call. Let's talk with Lane. Hi Lane Hey, how you doing doing good?

How are you doing? All right? Good. Um, I've got a it's I guess I just need to explain the facts behind it

And then you can kind of know where it's going from there I've got a really good friend who's a youth pastor in a church and he's been there for about six years now and um,

You know, everything's been fine. He's always a he's a reformed guy Calvinist. Um, you know, everything's been fine.

He's been able to Teach on that and everybody's uh, you know, it's never been an issue

Well, um this past weekend his pastor got up there and gave a sermon basically.

I think it was called like the Five errors of Calvinism or something like that, you know

So, um, so he's sitting in there, you know grit his teeth through the whole thing doesn't really make a big deal out of it You know, but um, you know, he's convicted afterward to go up to the pastor and say, um, you know

I think you should know since I'm on the leadership here that I am convinced Calvinist and I just like to you know, share with you my positions because um, you know,

I Like you misrepresented a lot of things and I don't think you fully understand it, you know in a very cordial way

But that's basically what he did. Well, everything was going fine. You know, he thought everything would be going well

You know until just maybe the last couple days and you know, he said, you know, basically last night it erupted you know, he just he tried to maintain his position and you know just explained him what everything was and how it's going on and he said the pastor basically like You know, it just wasn't a good it

The way he explained it what I think it was was like the pastor just basically put his ears and there's fingers in his ears

I'm just sorry, you know, then and I won't hear you kind of thing Well, the thing that comes that it comes down to is that this might actually

Get him fired from his position at the church. He's good, you know, they might

You know take it to the Deacons and see where it goes from there But basically, you know,

I was just wondering if you would give him Advice on how to deal with something. I'm sure that you've probably run across this issue

And uh, you know just even some encouragement because you know He's taking it pretty well.

Um, you know, but I'm sure that's just a tough tough position for him right now Well, yeah, we had we had a pastor who's been fairly regular in channel mentioned that Very same situation as in essence come up in his church, except he's the pastor and it's the elders that are saying you know, we're

We're not going to put up with this kind of teaching any longer and things like that The some of the people you might want to get him in touch with who have a lot of experience in this as of course

Tom Askell and the founders because They have to deal with this all the time They have to deal with individuals who are trying to bring

Reformation to a church and yet Very often what you do encounter sadly even in evangelical churches is a deep commitment to human tradition that Simply does not allow itself to be challenged and in the vast majority of instances, especially when someone

Preaches a sermon like that they're they're going on the basis of really bad information probably

Dave Hunt or George Bryson or or someone like that and and As a result if anyone attempts to respond to them and attempts to dialogue with them they very frequently especially in Baptist churches interpret that as a challenge to their authority and it can get pretty ugly pretty pretty quickly and As far as encouragement goes well

You know, there's there's really nothing worse than being stuck in a situation where?

you feel a fundamental disconnection with the The preaching and teaching of the church with which you were involved.

That's how I ended up at the Phoenix Reform Baptist Church Was that eventually? Being in a large

Southern Baptist Church where sometimes the sermon would be consistent with what

I was teaching in Wednesday night theology class or a Sunday morning adult

Bible study Sometimes it would be great. I remember a sermon on Isaiah 6 and the holiness of God man.

It was awesome But there was such inconsistency One Sunday would be great and two

Sundays later. It's exact opposite of what was two Sundays earlier and The fact that that people couldn't see that was extremely troubling

But for me, it was just impossible to stay in that kind of a situation It was impossible for me to stay in that kind of a fellowship where you don't have

That kind of consistency and that connectedness Between what you're you're teaching and and what is being taught from the pulpit

There is a tremendous blessing in being in a church where you have that kind of consistency and if you're in a church that has the maturity to where that's the case, then you should consider that a great blessing and It's if someone's you know, the whole issue of youth ministry is a whole nother topic to address.

I Personally don't remember that office in the church in the New Testament My perspective is that one of the the worst things that modern evangelicalism has done

Has is to separate the young people out from the more mature older Christians They don't they they need that example.

They need that interaction in our church We don't have Children's Church. The the children are in The services and the time they're a year and a half two years of age

Yeah that means you have to sit in the back and everything else and we all had to do it and so did I but That's that's life the young people get used to being with the adults and know who the adults are and they have that godly example, and I really think that That that's that's a problematic issue as it is, but that issue aside there is there's a lot to be said for being able to Get up and want to go to church

Sunday morning and I just can't tell you how many times I've talked to people who because of this because There is a fundamental disconnection as to whether and let's face it.

This is definitional whether you believe that God is free in the matter of salvation and that he is in this world glorifying himself or whether this is pretty much a man

Run show and God's, you know, just run around trying to put out fires in heaven that's going to impact a tremendous amount of the the

Regular activity within the church. It's gonna it's gonna impact worship It's going to impact how you deal with tragedy how you visit the sick how you pray

It impacts everything and it's not just the five points it's it's an entire perspective on whether you believe in a

God -centered salvation or a man -centered salvation and So it's it's especially if this is a younger person.

It's especially good as a younger person to get plugged in you know early on rather than Not wanting to get up on Sunday morning and wondering what kind of landmines you're gonna have to be tiptoeing around On this particular

Sunday and will such -and -such a person ask a question and and will I really be able to answer the question?

Or will I have to dodge around it and blah blah blah blah. It's It's a difficult thing.

So you know if it happens it happens and when you have

The leadership in essence taking that kind of a strong stand and it sounds like what you were saying rather suddenly

Normally there has been there's something has happened within the leadership within the deacons or something like that Hey, I don't like what this person's teaching.

Let's let's let's shut it down. And that's basically what happened with this other gentleman just you know,

I just sort of he thought things were going great and then all sudden boom and eventually if people are not on board in Recognizing the fundamental truths of God's sovereignty and man's deadness and sin eventually it will rear its head

You may think that you've you've Whitewashed it for a while. It will eventually come up.

It will eventually explode in your face and That's certainly been my experience

All right. Do you think it's um, if somebody's you know, Paul says if you do something against conscience of sin if you're convicted if you're convinced and convicted that the doctrines of grace are true, and um, you know, somebody's saying well you have to You know embrace

This Arminian teaching in this certain churches that at that point if you're going against conscience of that sin in essence well, obviously if someone says to be a part if it went when someone makes the direct statement this

Fellowship stands against what you believe then you don't have any choice at that point

You you you simply cannot be a part of that of that fellowship If if you're in a situation where people say well we allow for multiple views

Well, at least it doesn't mean you have to be out the door that day, but the same time I would go Could anybody go to a church?

I know there are people who do but can anyone go to a church we go? Well, you know Trinity modalism

Subordination ism Aaron ism, you know, we don't really know We're not really sure so you can you can hold whatever view you want here

We don't really get uptight about it and there are churches like that Believe it or not the one of the three people in Phillips Craig and Dean No, no, no,

I'll take the back back back back back It was it was a singing group that sang at the

Southern Baptist Convention two years ago Came from a church where their statement of faith basically says, you know

There's there's been a lot of confusion on this one person three person thing We don't really know and I just I just go what?

What what are you doing? What what where did this proclamation thing go if you don't even know who

God is isn't that paganism the unknown God, you know What what is this all about? So but yeah when it when it comes to whether whether God is

Sovereign a matter of salvation whether he's the one who's free or whether he in essence is being controlled by man

That's a big issue. It's not just a quote -unquote five points issue It ends up impacting so much more than that and and that's one of the things that I would say to some of the folks

In the founders movement is that you know, if you're looking at bringing Reformation you'd understand This is more than five points.

It is about how you view God. It is about how you view his word It is about how you view worship

It's about how you view man these things have impact and It's not just quote -unquote five points, you know

I've seen some people who've who've convinced everybody to five points But they didn't then make the connection to worship and the result is normally disastrous

Right really is okay. Okay. Well, yes, great. Thank you. Okay. Thank you Yes, she was commenting in channels that 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 it it isn't it is an issue

It's a vitally important issue. That's why every once in a while. We we touch on it. And hey, I don't care what?

Subject I'm talking about we were talking about atheism over the past number of weeks, but I respond to atheists as A person convinced of the sovereignty of God.

I see an atheist as a rebel sinner against God and You you're not going to be consistent if you don't take all of these

These beliefs and and try to be consistent in your theological Understanding in your worldview.

You've you've just you just got to do it. So anyway, let's get back to the efflegard -smith program

It was interesting that Later the issue came up about fairness.

Chris asked a good question, and I honestly think that Efflegard -smith sort of contradicted himself here or at least needs to see that what he's saying here would be applicable to a number of his objections to The Reformed Faith.

Let's let's listen in something that I've often heard basically Often heard from those who oppose the doctrines known as Calvinism.

You're basically saying that this makes God unfair Well, my reply has been is it more fair that God?

has determined or predetermined that salvation in Christ Jesus alone is absolutely necessary in order for one to enter heaven and yet There are have been millions and millions of people

Who have lived in areas that did not have the gospel and even today you have

Islamic countries Where you have children born in homes that if they were to Convert to Christ, even if they had an ample opportunity to hear that gospel, which is very

Often unlikely, but when they have heard the gospel and they embrace it they are threatened with execution and then you have on the other hand children born in the

Bible Belt of America where there is freedom of religion and freedom of speech where they're nurtured in the gospel is

That fair of God to send some of these folks in countries who have not had really an opportunity to make a choice between a true and false gospel

And the those who have had ample opportunity to make that choice is that fair of God that that one that some go to hell and Some are going to heaven when they really didn't have equal footing or an equal ground to come to Christ if you will.

Yep That is a multi -level question that if we were in the courtroom Chris, I'd say a compound question objection

But let me let me see if I can tease out the various layers there And let me start with with something that that we need to Appreciate I think more fully than we do in any event

That that God I believe has a plan of salvation That is universally applicable

But it is also true that God as sovereign and and Calvinist of all people ought to appreciate this point that as sovereign

God can grant clemency to Whomever he wishes Just as any judge just as any governor can do to those who are on death row

He can grant clemency and how God is going to ultimately judge people is

Not something I'm going to say. Hey, you can't do that. God. He can't judge people

Who have not come to Christ in the way that we understand the plan of salvation to be

I Don't know how he's going to make his judgment But that is a separate issue that sounds like inclusivism to me that sounds like Faith in Christ is not the only way of salvation that there are going to be folks in heaven that you know

God just sort of operated on some other way of salvation. I really don't know where he's going there

I don't think he's I don't think that's the infancy infants who die in infancy issue that sounded like There can be other ways of salvation to me and Noah Calvinist wouldn't generally agree with that But that's what it sounded like to me.

Anyway, how God might in the end Deal with people like that Going back to issue number two

Is it fair well the fairness aspect of Calvinism does not seem to be apparent in the sense that One is judged on the basis of something.

He could not possibly have done Because it was judged before the beginning of time and certainly to the human sense

That does not seem fair And Yet when you look at the book of Job and Job is asking the fairness question.

He's saying is this fair What you've done to me is my suffering fair and the answer that God gives is not a fair answer

He says Job. You don't understand. I'm God and you're not you know and your concept of fairness and my concept of fairness is different and So whether it be from a

Calvinist perspective or a non -Calvinist perspective God's understanding of fairness would confound us all probably

Well, how does that not apply to his entire objection at the beginning of the program?

His entire objection was that you know, this is unfair and God wouldn't do this

Now it is he does that he does go on then with this universalistic idea of you know Jesus came to save every single individual rather than Matthew 121 he came to save his people from their sins and we believe he actually accomplished that which then raises the point that from his perspective if Jesus's intention was to save every single individual then

Jesus fails in a large portion of those Instances, but be it as it may it would seem to me that that response would likewise

Refute his own objection at the beginning of the program Anyway more to get to after we take our break here on the dividing line.

We'll be right back How the Pilgrims progress it's not an easy way it's a journey

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Thank you And we'll go back to the dividing line we need some new bumper music

I put that Tim Janice CD out there so we could pull some new Bumper music, but we need I mean, this is nice, but it's just it's how many years how many?

Years You know, it's kind of like the preaching at PR BC you get into a book and years later you

It's not the same thing every week. Are you saying that when I preach is the same thing every week?

Maybe you are I don't know. I don't know. I want to go there Anyway, we are continuing to listen to some the comments made by Afflegard Smith and the subject of Calvinism here in the dividing line today

And why are we doing that? Well because that's what I listen to while riding my bike this morning And I just figure

I ain't smart enough to do other stuff I got to do what I'm thinking about the time and and for some reason about 12 people want to listen to that.

So that's That's a good thing Now I did appreciate the fact that he did identify the real issue because I would agree with what he's about to say here

No, it's what what does God reveal to us about his plan of salvation? And I don't

I just don't think it's a close question, but that in the scriptures we are told that God created us with the unfudged

Okay, his point the only part I agree with I'm gonna continue the only part

I agree with is the first part You've got to find in the scriptures. This is a scriptural issue now

How many people are gonna say well, it's not really a scriptural issue I some Arminians have said that but but the vast majority say oh, yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. I agree But it's the case that you really I think that's one of the things that has has made the

Potters freedom Accomplish what it's accomplished Is that it is so specifically biblical in its presentation.

It's not Here's a chapter in this subject and I'll throw a few verses in to make it look like I'm talking about no

Let's let's see what the scriptures actually say and not just well, here's a quote here.

Here's a go here But but what I tried to do in the Potter's freedom what I had to do because they're responding Norman Geisler Was when

I quote a verse I'm gonna give you the context and make the application as to how that is understood in the original and How it's relevant to the subject at hand and and that's not anything new

I mean one of the things if you go all the way back to the hundred verse Memorization system that I made years and years and years and years ago for dealing with Mormons What did

I emphasize in that that when you can't just sit there in quote verses to Mormons? You have to provide the context so that they can understand why that text is relevant to what they believe and what you want them

To come to believe you've got to do it that way and that's all I did with the Potter's freedom And that's what has made it so different than a lot of other books on the subject

It's my experience and you can just say it's just because it's my experience and I'm biased and blah blah blah blah

But the fact the matter is in my experience Arminian books Argue philosophical points and then they throw the

Bible in for the fun of it They throw the Bible in and it's not the exegesis.

I'm sorry It's just really shallow. It just is it's it's not believing.

It's not consistent. It's not conservative the the exegesis just ain't there and I think that's

You know, I remember listening to John 316 conference. We're all going where's the beef, you know, where is the exegesis?

Where is anything serious here and you do there's wasn't anything there. So that's genuine

Ability to make choices about about God about faith And it's holding us accountable

For the choices that we make he's called us to obedience and he punishes us for disobedience all of which presupposes that nothing already determined that would preclude either obedience or rebellion, it really seems to me that Dr.

Smith is very much right on the cusp of Pelagianism. It really is the denial of original sin every man's basically a new

Adam and The idea that there is nothing in God's eternal decree that is going to impact these things and there's just there's just so much in The Bible we want to go.

Excuse me, but God hardening people remember that you know Is this just something

God came up with as a result of their sin and rebellion? So it's God, you know plan B plan

C plan D Just constantly having to change his plans as he's frustrated by the evil of man

I mean, there's just so many questions that have to be asked on a fundamental foundational issue here that it's it's rough

Chris then asked about a key text One that we've all

I well not all of us, but many of us I imagine have utilized in in the past to discuss the issue of man's ability

He went to Romans chapter 8 Where Paul is talking about those who live according the flesh that the mind of things of the flesh

Those live according the spirits of the minds and the things the spirit Romans chapter 8 verse 5 For to set the mind the flesh is death

But to set the mind the spirit is life and peace For the mind that is sound the flesh is hostile to God for it does not submit to God's law indeed.

It can not and Those who are in the flesh cannot please God And of course the

Reformed person says all right You have those who are according to flesh and those who are in the spirit those who are regenerate and those who are not the regenerate according to spirit those who are not according to flesh and It would seem the

Arminian says but you can be in the flesh and yet choose to be in the spirit You can be in the flesh.

You can be unregenerate and yet you can choose freely On the basis of you know, whatever is presented to you, whatever

You can choose freely to be according to spirit But the problem is the text is very clear in saying that the mind's on the flesh is is hostile to court

God Not just mostly hostile. It's hostile toward God. So if the mind's on the flesh is hostile toward God Then how can that mind then freely submit itself to God's law?

Well Paul's answer is it cannot not it may not but it can not

Submit itself to God's law now if God's law is to repent and believe if that's the call of God's law

Then how can the mind that's on the flesh do this? It seems that dr. Smith's position is well

You don't have to remain in the flesh You can somehow be in the spirit and and you can just freely do this the idea of slavery to sin deadness and sin all that stuff is gone and so the mind's on the flesh can do what is pleasing to God and Submit to the law of God and repent and believe that's

So Chris asked this question and if you want to see a non answer now this gentleman very bright gentleman

He does great work in the field of abortion and and he you know, he teaches law and all the rest of stuff, but you're still

Deeply impacted by your traditions. Listen, it's a belief that will actually get you to heaven. How do you respond to Romans 8 5 through 9 for those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh

But those who are according to the spirit the things of the spirit for the mindset on the flesh is death

But the mindset on the spirit is life and peace because the mindset on the flesh is hostile towards God For it does not subject sell itself to the law of God for it is not even able to do so and Those who are in the flesh cannot please

God However, you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you

But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him So my question regarding that would be if indeed

Faith is necessary and faith in Christ is necessary To be saved and that pleases

God how does a sinner dead in his trespasses

Offer a faith to God that pleases him if this text says that there's nothing

That those in the flesh can do to please God well This is so easy

Chris Because Calvin's and non Calvinist alike would agree that as long as One remains in the flesh and is unwilling to place this faith in Jesus Christ.

He's lost We all agree on that and that's all that Paul was talking about in that context at that point

He's simply saying that we on our own cannot Find our way to salvation

If what we're depending upon is our own flesh as opposed to a Spiritual approach to God through Christ through faith.

We all agree on that. That is not a problem What is a problem is? the

Calvinist view that says unless and until God determines to regenerate a person he cannot come to faith and secondly

That if God has determined To regenerate a person he cannot help but come to faith why?

Because it's all been decided before a person was ever born much. I just have to I just can't let it keep going

I was gonna let it go for another 30 seconds or so, but and I will but There's a doctor.

Dr. Smith really does not understand the system. He's critiquing Why does the regenerate

Member of the elect repent and believe well because it was foreordained That's not a reformed response or even a reformed perspective he's he's ignoring the fact that there is

God has a purpose in what he's doing in this world and Repentance and faith and all the other actions of the

Christian life are Part and parcel of what God's purpose is in conforming us the image of Christ now repentance and faith are initial actions

Where we experience work to say the saving work of God They are brought about through the ministry of the

Word of God in the Spirit of God Through the proclamation of the gospel so on and so forth But the fact the matter is that it's not just well it was foreordained.

You know well It's foreordained that everyone who saves can be glorified, too But you don't can you don't conflate these things you don't mix these things up and just make them all one big blob

Since the New Testament distinguishes between the various aspects of the Spirit of God's work in our lives, so do we?

But he has not answered the question is it well of course you know as long as you remain in the flesh

You're gonna be lost Yeah, but the point is and and I brought the points Chris brought out the point very clearly

That to repent believe be pleasing to God it is part It is it is obedience to God's law

God's law says repent believe that's command, but those are according to flesh Cannot submit themselves to the law of God.

They cannot do what is pleasing in God's sight and so the question is you're saying they can and He doesn't answer that he doesn't even seem to understand.

That's the objective heard the word faith. It's all been predetermined Unconditional election is

Just the most fundamental Key to Calvinism unconditional which means

Not conditioned on faith No, the election is not conditioned upon God Seeing anything in the recipient of his grace you see dr.

Smith wants to make faith irrelevant he wants to make it a side issue He wants to make it just a and an action by a robot that has no meaning

Okay, and all those standard types of objections like that Unconditional election means that it is not conditioned upon a foreseen

Fulfillment of any condition on the part of the one so elected in other words

Romans 9 It's not of him who wills or of him who runs, but of God who shows the mercy

That's the whole point in the Jacob Esau example that is used in Romans 9 so just a fundamental misunderstanding on his part

It was predetermined that a person would be saved for eternity and everybody else would be lost so for someone to Remain in the flesh according to Calvinism He doesn't have any choice, but to remain in the flesh to have the spirit

He really doesn't have any choice, but to be in the spirit because that's been determined as well

Everything has been predetermined and so it makes a mockery of faith Faith is only the outworking of that which has already been predetermined according to Calvinism All of salvation according to Calvinism is going to be outworking of God's sovereign purpose to redeem and elect people unto himself

That doesn't change the nature of faith doesn't make it a mockery It doesn't make it any less real and of course you know all of this goes back to whether dr.

Smith has a Even an orthodox view of God's knowledge God's sovereignty Certainly doesn't of God's of man's nature in regards to original sin but That that those fundamental issues would have to come up first I just mentioned

Romans 9 in the last last section. We'll look at here a caller called in read all of Romans 9 and As you can expect

There's always a way around Romans 9 It's not much of a contextual way It's not going to answer the question that Paul's addressing and that is how is it that not all who are of Israel are?

Israel You know there's this there's this election all along and of course it ends up being non -personal its nations

It's well you Jews are complaining because the Gentiles are coming in And well,

I'll just let him explain it for you. Hey Don. There's no way I'm gonna convince you on this, but I'm going to give you the answer that I think is the true answer and Are we coming up on a break not for another five minutes, okay good

Here's here's the the answer and again, I won't be able to convince anybody of this easily but if Anyone's really serious about Romans 9 through 11 that whole

Context has to be looked at very carefully in the context of the entire letter to the

Romans that starts off talking about Jews and Gentiles starts off talking about in chapter 1 the

Gentiles who had gone over into idolatry the Gentiles have given themselves over to Homosexual behavior, and if you're wondering what the connection is there, it's all about sin and Paul says that All sin is a an inversion of the created order instead of worshiping the creature the

Creator We're worshiping creatures instead of Having sexual relations as God intended them we pervert that and then he addresses the

Jews to say You know you talk a lot about The Gentiles being unclean and unworthy, but I'm telling you that the sins that you commit are no different from theirs bringing us into All the sin and fallen short of the glory of God a

Reminder that whether we're Jews or whether we're Gentiles all the sin and fallen short of the glory of God, and we all need redemption followed by As you get up into Romans 9 through 11 what he's saying he's writing to Jews and saying that but you know

Because all of us are sin sinful and sinners that all need Some way of salvation and therefore

I'm now going to include the Gentiles which was a hard sell for the

Jews now notice he's I Just Strongly recommend go ahead and listen to dr.

Smith and go ahead and download the the exegesis of Romans 9 that we offer on our website and see who actually follows the text because somehow we just leapt over all the stuff on justification and We left over the golden chain of redemption in Romans 8

And then we left over the immediate context Romans 9 which is all right

Paul then why is it so many Jews don't believe and That now he's saying well.

He's just talking to Jews here about accepting Gentiles No, that's not quite right

That that's not answering the question of Romans chapter 9 verses 5 and 6

Which is always where the Arminian has to collapse he just Because if he if he actually allows the text to stand as the text is

Well, he's not gonna be in Arminian very long because Romans 9 is gonna teach exactly what he rejects

And and and so he says to the Jews Look, I chose you as a nation not as individuals because not all

Israel is Israel But I chose you as a nation and you've been very happy about that Now notice he just quoted it but doesn't see that that's what it's about.

Well, not all Israel is Israel. Why? Why wait he he glosses over that and says oh well,

I chose you as a people not as individuals and Yet every illustration that's going to be used is of what?

Individuals and he's not seeing that the quotation of not all Israel is Israel is demonstrating individual particularity in the preceding period of time where the

Jews accepted what God was doing and Therefore it really does answer the objection, but it answers it in a way that the

Arminian well won't accept now You you've really liked the fact that you are the elect until now

In fact, they've become pretty arrogant about being the elect but now When they're told well, maybe there's others that are going to be included

They get all huffy about it and so he talks about the Potter saying I have the right to make whatever vessel

I want to do I not and Wasn't it really good for you that I? made a switch in the womb between Jacob and Esau you loved that part didn't you but now when

I try to exercise my sovereignty and bring other sinners Into the the fold of salvation you get all huffy about it 9 through 11 has nothing to do with individual

Election it has everything to do with Jews and Gentiles now notice

Again you never hear these folks Actually walk through the text and explain how the text holds together

They can't they can't do it because if you actually took this and you went to the text

You would have to answer questions like so why is it that Paul says that?

Before the twins had done anything good or bad So that God's purpose and election might stand it was that sounds

Individual to me that that sounds Is that as I don't know not a and and how do you explain?

You know Pharaoh, and how how how is any of this have to then bring up the objection that?

Paul himself has to respond to How how can God still find fault for who can resist his will?

The response would have to be oh you misunderstood everything I was saying I was just talking about Jews and Gentiles How could you come up with something like that?

They can't read it They have to stay out of the text maybe quote a little portion here a little portion there never in the stream of argument

You can't flow from verse 5 onward and show how it all hangs together. They can't this can't do it

You show me someone who's done it Geiser couldn't do it Geiser cut it up into three or four different sections

Listen to hunt trying it listen to Bryson trying it. It doesn't work They can't do it because well their position just well isn't right that Gentiles are now as Open and available to salvation as the

Jews To apply that to individual salvation Abuses the context of the argument that Paul has been making from chapter 1

So an Actual the actual reality is that that dr. Smith is abusing the context and ignoring the argument from verse 5 in this very chapter.

That's That's the problem. So Once again interesting stuff. I didn't get to everything.

There was a couple other things that I that I wanted to look at We'll get to it eventually especially in regards to John chapter 6

Maybe we'll continue on with that and who knows maybe something will work out and not too distant future Well, where we'll be able to do that that encounter.

So Always an interesting subject when you address it. It's nice to hear some different voices addressing it

But have you noticed there is this odd? consistency Obviously a much more learned and intelligent man than many we've heard railing against Calvinism but the role of tradition and Missing fundamental issues about the nature of man and the nature of God Seems to be a consistency in all forms of Arminianism, doesn't it?

Well, anyways, thanks for listening to the voting line We'll be back Lord willing next Tuesday here on the program and we'll see you then.

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