F. LaGard Smith's Anti-Calvinism

Inerrancy, Peter Enns, and the Question of Calvinism

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

And welcome to the dividing line Thursday. Afternoon, I keep looking down at the bottom of my screen for my doc on my Mac and this isn't a Mac. So it doesn't have a doc. It's nothing there. I was looking down there because there's this little thing that tells you the exact date, which is the 19th of March 2009 last day of winter officially.

That's for us here in in Arizona. It's like.

Right.

We schedule winter in for like about three days in January and that was about it and It's gonna be 90 91 degrees here today something like that. I'm gonna cool off for the weekend down the 70s again, but it'll pop right back up.

So The heat's coming we know it we're all breaking out our summer clothes and that's just how it is and that's okay with me. I'm not complaining about that. In fact this morning. I was enjoying that beautiful weather So as to be able to Listen to a number of things.

I have an article due for CRI in about 11 days on the importance of.

Original Sin and the Sovereignty of God

Inerrancy and.

Specifically in regards to the events related to Peter Enns at Westminster Seminary and does inerrancy still matter and That's actually not just a little article. That's a full-size article. So I'll be able to actually develop a few ideas in the process.

So I was listening to an interview on NPR with Peter Enns. It's amazing NPR never calls me. I've not figured that part out. But if you get kicked out of a seminary you get called by NPR if you well, okay.

If you mutually agree after having been suspended by the board To leave a seminary you get called by NPR and if you're Bart Ehrman you get called by NPR. But if you actually happen to believe in stuff, then you don't get called by NPR.

But anyway, then after that I started listening to the series that took place last year Chris Arnzen had asked me to do an online An on-air debate with Efflegard Smith over his book troubling questions for Calvinists and all the rest of us and I just didn't have the time to work that in Just he wanted to do it really really quickly and I just didn't have have time to do it but since then he's indicated that it would be good to still consider possibility of doing that in the future and so what I did is I Downloaded the Debate that took place on iron sharpens iron and today I listened to the first program which was just Efflegard Smith by himself with Chris Arnzen and The callers and I found it rather fascinating and I thought I would comment on some of the things I heard today.

I also dug out the book that Dr. Smith sent to me. I did find it somewhat Humorous that it was mentioned that the last that he had retired but that the last place he had taught was Liberty University.

Yes, I'm sure that Ergon canner very much Enjoyed that I am before play these I'm a little troubled because as I was looking through the book I I very quickly discovered that. Dr. Smith does not believe in original sin and That's a pretty major whoops Or heresy actually To and and his way around Romans 5 is unique, but easily refuted.

I believe because he has just completely missed the point that Paul is presenting two humanities one in Adam one in Christ. Everyone is an Adam only those who are the elect are in Christ and it doesn't really deal with that.

But anyway, I Want to comment on some of these things and listen to some of the some of the that first program and comment on that interestingly enough our first caller is relevant to this, but let's go ahead and at least get the topic started and Let's listen to the very beginning the program where Chris basically asks Efflegard Smith.

Why Calvinism, Fairness, and the Meaning of Salvation

All right. What's your big problem with Calvinism in?

Result of The belief system known as Calvinism that millions if not billions of souls who have lived and who will live Are from even before the time they are born Condemned to damnation eternally without any choice on their part whatsoever.

And that Really that runs counter to What I consider to be the most central theme of the scripture came into the world All mankind from sin and that everybody has a choice To either accept Christ or not to accept Christ.

And that is that is not conditioned about anything that happened in eternity before the creation.

Now there's there's what's from dr. Efflegard Smith's perspectives most offensive about Calvinism. Is this idea that these billions of souls are condemned without any choice on their own part and a Calvinist sits there?

And goes Who do you are you offended at? What? These people don't aren't sinners. These people don't love their sin. They don't choose to sin. They don't continue in their rebellion. It's God. What what's that?

They were is are you do you seriously believe that God would force them to do these things? Well, that's why I don't like that original sin thing, you know, you've fallen Adam and and so on so forth, but notice that the presentation of absolute autonomy as being absolutely necessary in dr. Smith's position man has to have a Every man has an equal chance and I'm like, well, wait a minute.

Wait a minute. Every man has an equal chance. A person living in Texas has the equal chance with the person living in Riyadh to accept Jesus. Not exactly and in fact, that's gonna come up later on when Chris is gonna ask him about this issue of fairness.

And it's funny. He's gonna say well, we know we really can't judge God's fairness and yet he's doing that exactly here the idea that Every person is treated exactly the same is just just there's there's no merit to it because obviously that is not the case at all.

But this idea that there is nothing This decision is completely free from anything that happened in eternity. Let's just think for just a moment. Let's let's go into a biblical time frame and let's think about David.

Let's let's look at a Samuel and Someone who's living at the same time outside the borders of Israel in amongst the Philistines. Are you gonna tell me that when Samuel is born? With godly parents who take him to the tabernacle and Dedicate him to the service of God.

That he has the same quote-unquote. There's nothing back in eternity that hasn't influenced that in comparison to The pagan child who's maybe whose brother is offered in sacrifice to Moloch. There there was nothing in eternity about that.

It concerns me a little bit. I haven't had chance to finish reading the section. I was reading a portion of the book where Dr. Smith was dealing with this idea of Open theism and It does strike me as somewhat odd.

How he's dealing with it? He he he really struggles to find a way for God to have knowledge of future events without ordaining them and He doesn't seem to understand that if God has perfect knowledge of future events, but did not ordain them then they took place Without his control over them and he wants to have a partial control.

He talks about well Let me just read this is a section for you because I think it's relevant. Another way of putting it putting this is to ask is for knowledge tantamount to for ordination as Calvinist would affirm suppose for a moment that in the vast reaches of eternity before time began God had the divine ability to get into a time machine and Set the date ahead to June 6th 1944 suddenly their God is looking down on Omaha Beach watching the Americans fighting their way onto the shore against formidable German resistance.

Assume also that God is simply there as a neutral observer. Contrary to the claim of virtually all combatants that God is on our side and our supposed hypothetical God's God's hand isn't in the conflict either way.

Is there anything about the mere fact that God is able to watch the D-Day landings from his time machine that? Necessarily determines whether or not the invasion will be a success.

Is.

There any theoretical reason why the Germans might not have won the battle for Normandy and ultimately the war itself and if in fact is it? Happened isn't that outcome instead of an allied victory what God would have witnessed now.

You see all of time here is existing outside of God's knowledge. God is having to take knowledge in. This is not only a problem with the Asserting putting God into the timeline so that he's observing, but this would absolutely require that God learns things that God takes in knowledge and This takes us back again logically to the necessity of the idea that God Tossed the cosmic dice.

What came out came out. God wins yee-haw so why should we glorify him? He tossed the cosmic dice and even then you still you still have to deal with the fact that this this initial objection That I just played for you is an objection that he has to deal with as well.

Because if he believes that when God created God did know everything's gonna happen in the future. And it doesn't seem that he wants to go the open theist direction in his book. I could be wrong about that.

But didn't seem like it. But unless he's willing to go the open theist direction when God created God did know all those billions of souls that were going to be lost in hell for eternity and if he didn't have a purpose in creating them, then you're left with the the horrible specter of Consistent Arminianism and that is a God who creates all this absolutely unnecessary evil.

Just simply to pander to man's sovereign will. I would much rather have a God who creates purposeful evil to glorify himself than a God who tosses the cosmic dice and Creates all this senseless evil for absolutely no reason whatsoever other than to pander to man's will.

I go back to the book here. Of course if we change our hypothetical to assume that God really was on the side of the Allies and despite the odds had Already foreordained that the Americans would take Omaha Beach nothing in all the world could have changed the outcome.

In that instance what God would have witnessed is what God already wanted what he had decreed. What he had purpose plan and provided and were that the case is eternal foreknowledge would have been based directly upon what he had foreordained.

Now, let me just point something out what happened on Omaha Beach was the result of free agents acting. There were some men who acted as heroes. There were some men who acted in pure cowardice. There were some men who acted with compassion.

There are some men who acted with hatred. But there are people who became Christians because of what happened on Omaha Beach the one thing That efflegard-smith wants to avoid. Having any sovereign control over the one thing is the one thing that God glorifies himself most fully and in that salvation.

He doesn't have any problem with God controlling nations. But the problem is to control nations you have to control individuals. There has to be a sovereign decree there. So listen to this next next paragraph.

But do you not agree that it is only by adding our second assumption That is that God has a purpose and what happens in Omaha Beach. That only by adding our second assumption that we get this particular connection between foreknowledge and for donation as we plainly saw.

No such connection is logically necessary. Well, I don't think we plainly saw that at all. Because the the idea of a time machine Not only isn't relevant to God's eternal nature, but it also ignores the fact that that perspective requires that God learn that God come to possess knowledge from outside of himself and again a Fundamental violation of an understanding of the eternal nature of God.

And so it is it is the same thing later on when he talks about Romans not eight and foreknowledge we may get to that but that's subject today and our first caller actually is Right on that subject. So we'll go ahead and take the call.

A Pastor’s Conflict Over Calvinism in the Church

Let's talk with Lane. Hi Lane Hey, how you doing doing good? How are you doing? All right?

Good. Um, I've got a it's I guess I just need to explain the facts behind it. And then you can kind of know where it's going from there I've got a really good friend who's a youth pastor in a church and he's been there for about six years now and um.

You know, everything's been fine. He's always a he's a reformed guy Calvinist. Um, you know, everything's been fine. He's been able to Teach on that and everybody's uh, you know, it's never been an issue.

Well, um this past weekend his pastor got up there and gave a sermon basically. I think it was called like the Five errors of Calvinism or something like that, you know so, um. So he's sitting in there, you know gritting his teeth through the whole thing doesn't really make a big deal out of it.

You know, but um, you know, he's convicted afterward to go up to the pastor and say, um, you know I think you should know since I'm on the leadership here that I am convinced Calvinist and I just like to you know, share with you my positions because um, you know, I Like you misrepresented a lot of things and I don't think you fully understand it, you know in a very cordial way.

But that's that's basically what he did. Well, everything was going fine. You know, he thought everything would be going well. You know until just maybe the last couple days and you know, he said, you know, basically last night it erupted you know, he just he tried to maintain his position and You know just explained him what everything was and how it's going on.

And he said the pastor basically like You know, it just wasn't a good it. The way he explained it what I think it was was like the pastor just basically put his ears and there's fingers in his Ears and just started, you know, no, no, I won't hear you kind of thing.

Well, the thing that comes that it comes down to is that this might actually Get him fired from his position at the church. He's good, you know, they might You know take it to the deacons and see where it goes from there.

But basically, you know, I was just wondering if you would give him Advice on how to deal with something. I'm sure that you've probably run across this issue. And uh, you know just even some encouragement because they you know, yeah, he's taking a pretty well.

Position for him right now. Well, yeah, we had we had a pastor who's been fairly regular in channel mentioned that Very same situation as in essence come up in his church, except he's the pastor and it's the elders that are saying You know, we're.

We're not going to put up with this kind of teaching any longer and things like that. The some of the people you might want to get him in touch with who have a lot of experience in this as of course Tom Askell and the founders because They have to deal with this all the time.

They have to deal with individuals who are trying to bring Reformation to a church and yet Very often what you do encounter sadly even in evangelical churches is a deep commitment to human tradition that Simply does not allow itself to be challenged and in the vast majority of instances, especially when someone Preaches a sermon like that they're they're going on the basis of really bad information probably Dave Hunt or George Bryson or or someone like that and and As a result if anyone attempts to respond to them and attempts to dialogue with them they very frequently especially in Baptist churches interpret that as a challenge to their authority and it can get pretty ugly pretty pretty quickly and.

As far as encouragement goes well. You know, there's there's really nothing worse than being stuck in a situation where? You feel a fundamental disconnection with the The preaching and teaching of the church with which you were involved.

That's how I ended up at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. Was that eventually? Being in a large Southern Baptist Church where sometimes the sermon would be consistent with what I was teaching in Wednesday night theology class or a Sunday morning adult Bible study.

Sometimes it would be great. I remember a sermon on Isaiah 6 and the holiness of God man. It was awesome. But there was such inconsistency. One Sunday would be great and two Sundays later. It's exact opposite of what was two Sundays earlier and The fact that that people couldn't see that was extremely troubling.

But for me, it was just impossible to stay in that kind of a situation. It was impossible for me to stay in that kind of a fellowship where you don't have That kind of consistency and that connectedness Between what you're you're teaching and and what is being taught from the pulpit.

There is a tremendous blessing in being in a church where you have that kind of consistency and if you're in a church that has the maturity to where that's the case, then you should consider that a great blessing and It's if someone's you know, the whole issue of youth ministry is a whole other topic to address.

I Personally don't remember that office in the church in the New Testament my perspective is that one of the the worst things that modern evangelicalism has done has Is to separate the young people out from the more mature older Christians they don't they they need that example.

They need that interaction in our church. We don't have Children's Church. The the children are in The services and the time they're a year and a half two years of age yeah, that means you have to sit in the back and everything else and we all had to do it and so did I but That's that's life the young people get used to being with the adults and know who the adults are and they have that to godly example and I really think that.

That that's that's a problematic issue as it is, but that issue aside there's there's a lot to be said for being able to Get up and want to go to church Sunday morning and I just can't tell you how many times I've talked to people who because of this because There is a fundamental disconnection as to whether and let's face it.

This is definitional whether you believe that God is free in the matter of salvation and that he is in this world glorifying himself or whether this is pretty much a.

Man.

Run show and God's, you know, just run around trying to put out fires in heaven that's going to impact a tremendous amount of the the Regular activity within the church. It's gonna it's gonna impact worship.

It's going to impact how you deal with tragedy how you visit the sick how you pray. It impacts everything and it's not just the five points it's it's an entire perspective on whether you believe in a God-centered salvation or a man-centered salvation and So it's it's especially if this is a younger person.

It's especially good as a younger person to get plugged in you know early on rather than Not wanting to get up on Sunday morning and wondering what kind of landmines you're gonna have to be tiptoeing around On this particular Sunday and will such-and-such a person ask a question and and will I really be able to answer the question?

Or will I have to dodge around it and blah blah blah blah. It's It's a difficult thing. So you know if it happens it happens and when you have The leadership in essence taking that kind of a strong stand and it sounds like what you were saying rather suddenly Normally there has been there's something has happened within the leadership within the deacons or something like that.

Hey, I don't like what this person's teaching. Let's let's let's shut it down. And that's basically what happened with this other gentleman just you know, I just sort of he thought things were going great and then all sudden boom and Eventually if if people are not on board in Recognizing the fundamental truths of God's sovereignty and man's deadness and sin eventually it will rear its head you may think that you've you've Whitewashed it for a while.

It will eventually come up. It will eventually explode in your face and That's certainly been my experience.

All right. Do you think it's um, if somebody's you know, Paul says if you do something against conscience of sin. If you're convicted if you're convinced and convicted that the doctrines of grace are true, and um, you know, somebody's saying well you have to You know embrace This Arminian teaching in this certain churches that at that point if you're going against conscience, is that sin in essence?

Well, obviously if someone says to be a part if it went when someone makes the direct statement this Fellowship stands against what you believe then you don't have any choice at that point. You you you simply cannot be a part of that of that fellowship if if you're in a situation where people say well We allow for multiple views.

Well, at least it doesn't mean you have to be out the door that day. But the same time I would go. Could anybody go to a church? I know there are people who do but can anyone go to a church we go? Well, you know Trinity Modalism subordination ism Aaron ism, you know, we don't really know we're not really sure so you can you can hold whatever view You want here?

We don't really get uptight about it and there are churches like that believe it or not. One of the three people in Phillips Craig and Dean. No, no, no, I'll take the back back back back back up. It was it was a singing group that sang at the Southern Baptist Convention two years ago.

Came from a church where their statement of faith basically says, you know. There's there's been a lot of confusion on this one person three person thing. We don't really know and I just I just go what?

What what are you doing? What what where did this part proclamation thing go? If you don't even know who God is isn't that paganism the unknown God, you know, what what is this all about? So. But yeah when it when it comes to whether whether God is Sovereign a matter of salvation whether he's the one who's free or whether he in essence is being controlled by man.

That's a big issue. It's not just a quote-unquote five points issue it ends up impacting so much more than that and and that's one of the things that I would say to some of the folks in The founders movement is that you know, if you're looking at bringing Reformation you'd understand.

This is more than five points. It is about how you view God. It is about how you view his word. It is about how you view worship. It's about how you view man these things have impact and It's not just quote-unquote five points, you know I've seen some people who've who've convinced everybody to five points.

But they didn't then make the connection to worship and the result is normally disastrous.

Right really is okay. Okay. Well, yes, great. Thank you. Okay. Thanks only since I say to.

Actually, yes, she was commenting in channels that hey, I know him that's my boy.

And.

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one it it isn't it is an issue. It's a vitally important issue. That's why every once in a while. We we touch on it. And hey, I don't care what Subject I'm talking about we were talking about atheism over the past number of weeks, but I respond to atheists as A person convinced of the sovereignty of God.

I see I see an atheist as a rebel sinner against God and You you're not going to be consistent if you don't take all of these These beliefs and and try to be consistent in your theological Understanding in your worldview.

You've you've just you just got to do it. So anyway, let's get back to the efflegard-smith program. It was interesting. That's Later the issue came up about fairness. Chris asked a good question, and I honestly think that Efflegard-smith sort of contradicted himself here or at least needs to see that what he's saying here would be applicable to a number of his objections to The Reformed Faith, let's let's listen in something that I've often heard.

Basically. The often heard from those who oppose the doctrines known as Calvinism, you're basically saying that this makes God unfair. Well, my reply has been is it more fair that God?

Has.

Determined or predetermined that salvation in Christ Jesus alone is Absolutely necessary in order for one to enter heaven. And yet There are have been millions and millions of people who have lived in areas that did not have the gospel.

And even today You have Islamic countries where you have children born in homes that if they were to convert to Christ, even if they had an ample opportunity to hear that gospel, which is very often unlikely, but when they have heard the gospel and they embrace it they are Threatened with execution.

And then you have on the other hand children born in the Bible Belt of America where there is freedom of religion and freedom of speech where they're nurtured in the gospel. Is That fair of God to send some of these folks in countries who have not had really an opportunity to make a choice between a true and false gospel.

And the those who have had ample opportunity to make that choice is that fair of God that that one that some go to hell and Some are going to heaven when they really didn't have equal footing or an equal ground to come to Christ if you will.

Yep.

That is a multi-leveled question that if we were in the courtroom Chris, I'd say a compound question objection. But let me let me see if I can tease out the various layers there. And let me start with with something that that we need to Appreciate I think more fully than we do at any event That that God I believe has a plan of salvation That is universally applicable.

But it is also true that God as sovereign and and Calvinist of all people ought to appreciate this point that as sovereign God can grant clemency to Whomever he wishes. Just as any judge just as any governor can do to those who are on death row He can grant clemency and how God is going to ultimately judge people.

Is.

Not something I'm gonna say. Hey, you can't do that God. He can't judge people Who have not come to Christ in the way that we understand the plan of salvation to be. I? Don't know how he's going to make his judgment separate issue.

That sounds like inclusivism to me. That sounds like Faith in Christ is not the only way of salvation that there are going to be folks in heaven that you know. God just sort of operate on some other way of salvation.

I really don't know where he's going there. I don't think he's I don't think that's the infancy infants who die in infancy issue. That sounded like There can be other ways of salvation to me and no a Calvinist wouldn't generally agree with that.

But that's what it sounds like to me anyway how God might in the end.

Deal with people like that. Going back to issue number two. Is it fair. The fairness aspect of Calvinism does not seem to be apparent in the sense that One is judged on the basis of something he could not possibly have done.

Because it was judged before the beginning of time and certainly to the human sense. That does not seem fair. And yet when you look at the book of Job and Job is asking the fairness question. He's saying is this fair.

What you've done to me is my suffering fair. And the answer that God gives is not a fair answer. He says Job you don't understand. I'm God and you're not you know. And your concept of fairness and my concept of fairness is different and.

So whether it be from a Calvinist perspective or a non Calvinist perspective God's understanding of fairness would confound us all probably.

Well, how does that not apply to his entire objection at the beginning of the program? His entire objection was that you know, this is unfair and God wouldn't do this now. It is he does that he does. Go on then with this universalistic idea of you know God Jesus came to save every single individual rather than Matthew 121.

He came to save his people from their sins and we believe he actually accomplished that which then raises the point that from his perspective If Jesus's intention was to save every single individual then Jesus fails in a large portion of those Instances but be it as it may it would seem to me that that response would likewise Refute his own objection at the beginning of the program.

But anyway more to get to after we take our break here on the dividing line. We'll be right back.

How the pilgrims progress. It's not an easy way. It's a journey.

To.

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Thank you.

And we'll go back to the dividing line. We need some new bumper music.

I put that Tim Janis CD out there so we could pull some new bumper music, but we need. I mean, this is nice. But it's just it's. How many years. How many?

You know, it's kind of like the preaching at PR BC you get into a book and years later you.

It's not the same every week. Are you saying that when I preach is the same thing every week? Maybe you are. I don't know. I don't know. I want to go there. Anyway, we are continuing to listen to some of the comments made by Afflegard Smith and the subject of Calvinism here on the dividing line today, and why are we doing that?

Well, because that's what I listen to while riding my bike this morning. And I just figure I ain't smart enough to do other stuff. I got to do what I'm thinking about the time and and for some reason about 12 people want to listen to that.

That's a good thing. Now I did appreciate the fact that he did identify the real issue because I would agree with what he's about to say here.

No, it's what. What does God reveal to us about his plan of salvation? And I don't. I just don't think it's a close question. But that in the scriptures we are told that God created us the unfudged.

Okay his point the only part I agree with I'm gonna continue the only part I agree with was the first part You've got to find in the scriptures. This is a scriptural issue now. He said that how many people are gonna say well, it's not really a scriptural issue I some Arminians have said that but but the vast majority say oh, yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. I agree, but it's the case that you really I think that's one of the things that has has made the Potter's freedom. Accomplish what it's accomplished. Is that it is so specifically biblical in its presentation.