January 2, 2020 Show with Mpumelelo Kunene on “The Progress, Opportunities & Challenges of the Reformed Faith in South Africa”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

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Chris Arnsin. Yes, we're going to be telling you about Johannesburg today, and I'm looking forward to having a guest that I've never interviewed before on the program today.

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His name is Mpumelelo Kunene, and I did not just receive the gift of charismatic tongues so that is his name.

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He is a native of Johannesburg, South Africa, and he is a pastoral intern at Heritage Baptist Church of Johannesburg, South Africa, and also he is a reporting student at the

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Reform Baptist Seminary in California, or a correspondence student,

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I'm sorry, and that's in Sacramento California, and he is pursuing an

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MDiv there, and together with his wife Abigail, they are training and trusting the

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Lord to be sent out of South Africa as missionaries into other parts of Africa.

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It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and let me say it again, and hopefully get it right again,

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Mpumelelo Kunene. Thank you brother, it's a privilege to be on the show, and you're doing pretty well with that name actually.

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Great, well praise God. And before we get into the topic at hand, which is going to be specifically the progress opportunities and challenges of the

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Reform faith in South Africa, if you could please tell us about Heritage Baptist Church of Johannesburg.

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Yes, Heritage Baptist Church is a young church, recently stopped being called a church plant.

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We were planted in 2011. We have two elders, two bivocational elders, mostly full -time, and in the past written they labored there.

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Three deacons, membership of about around 90, 97. Growing church, young church, love the

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Lord Jesus, trying to navigate honoring the Lord Jesus in Johannesburg, multiculturally, in a manner that pleases

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Him, following the scriptures. So we're excited to see what the Lord has for us, and we desire prayer to grow more in following the

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Lord. And this is a confessional Reform Baptist Church? This is a confessional

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Reform Baptist Church we hold to the 1689 Baptist Confession. Great, and if anybody wants more details on this congregation, we will hopefully remember to repeat this later, but the email,

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I'm sorry, the website I should say, address is heritagebaptist .co

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.za, heritagebaptist .co .za. And now, what we typically do on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio when we have a first -time guest is we have them give a summary of their salvation testimony, including the kind of religious atmosphere you were born and raised in, if any, and what providential circumstances the

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Lord raised up in your life that drew you to Himself and saved you.

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Great, well, one of my favorite stories is talking about the Lord's grace in my life.

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I was born and raised in a Christian family. My grandmother really loved the

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Lord. To this day, she still loves the Lord. She followed the Lord, and we grew up having family worship, going to church on Sundays, but personally,

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I had no desire at a young age. But I knew that the

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God was real, and specifically the God of my grandmother is real, and He was different from the

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God of the people around us, because South Africa is very religious generally, especially being in Africa, we have

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African traditional religions. And I knew that there was a distinction between the God of the people around us and the

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God that my grandmother followed. She was a part of a German mission.

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She had been saved in a German mission that was kind of Lutheran, but kind of also not so much, not confessional or anything like that.

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And so throughout the years, I just was with my grandmother, but as I grew up,

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I kind of fell away from that. But providentially, because my grandmother was a disciplinarian, that kept me from a lot of foolishness and a lot of evil that I could have gotten into.

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And when I went to university for my first year, I was very excited to be free from my grandmother and be free from that kind of disciplinary and that kind of authority.

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But the Lord had other plans. Just in my first semester, I met some men from a group called

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Campus Crusade, which I'm sure you might have heard of. And they shared the gospel with me, and they were interested in me, and I was interested in me, and so it worked out.

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And I said, well, let me just follow these Americans. I think they were there for the summer.

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I said, well, let me just follow these Americans and see what they're talking about, because they seem to like me, and I like me too.

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And during the course of that time, as I kept spending time with them and we were studying the

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Word together, the Lord really started to instill some things in my heart. And really the providential circumstance that brought me to the

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Lord was, I was really annoyed that when they asked questions at Bible studies that I didn't know the answers, because I'd grown up in a

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Christian household. But I did not understand all the basic questions that they were asking.

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And to top that off, my pride could not take the issue that this other man, who just seemed to know every kind of answer.

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If you ask him anything, he'll tell you a chapter and verse for everything that you ask him. So I was really annoyed at that. And so I started reading the

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Scriptures over and over again. Even my studies were starting to suffer in that second semester, just reading so that I can go to the

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Bible study and answer the questions. But the Lord in His grace used that to kind of prick in my heart.

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And Matthew 7, 21 just kept playing there. Not many who say to me, Lord, Lord, but only those who do the will of my

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Father in Heaven. And that just stayed with me to such a point where one day I came to a point where I realized that I actually have not called

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Him Lord in the fullest sense of the word. I've not fallen on my knees before Him.

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I've not received of His grace. And I don't really have Him ruling my life.

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And so there was one day particularly where I said, okay, Lord Jesus, whatever you want me to do, I'll do it.

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And yeah, there was a Pentecostal church that a lot of my friends were going to, so I went to that church during that time as well.

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So the Lord saved me. That's how the Lord saved me. Praise God. Now, how did you come to discover and embrace

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Reformed theology specifically? Well, so over time, me and a number of my friends, and this is a story that you'll hear a lot if you speak to South Africans, and out there say a lot of Southern Africans, actually, as I've been speaking to more brothers from Kenya and Zambia and so forth.

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What you hear a lot, and so what happened with me specifically was we were, we were,

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I had a group of friends and we were studying the Word together. We were really digging into the meaning of the Word. We were really enjoying, and to our church's credit and to our pastor at the time was really helping us with little tools to study

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God's Word. So understand, okay, the Scripture. Understand, look for a promise. Look for a command when you're studying the

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Word. And so as we're doing all of those things, we're seeing that the, I started seeing a lot of things that I'm seeing in the church that are happening and the things that I'm seeing in the

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Scriptures that are being said very clearly that I've done differently. And when I ask a question, the answers that I get just didn't seem to work.

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And so during that time, I started thinking, okay, something's a bit off. And I already had a friend who was a lot more conservative.

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He wasn't Reformed, but he was a lot more conservative. And so bonding with him together, we started feeling, okay, we're going to be attending church, but something's off.

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And over time, we started getting introduced somehow over the Internet to, there's a

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YouTube video called The Revival Hymn. And we started listening to that and listening to the men that were there.

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We started getting introduced to Leonard Ravenhill, A .W. Tozer. We're like, okay, so holiness is the way to, this is what it is.

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And it wasn't until, I think it was 2011, when this friend of mine that I just mentioned, somebody put a

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Paul Washer video on his laptop. He doesn't remember. That's definitely going to do some damage.

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Oh, brother, you don't understand. So let me paint the scene for you. This brother wasn't there.

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We usually had this thing where we'd cook meals together in the evenings together at the university dormitory, and then we'll sit down and watch a video, discuss theology.

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So only two of us. We had a group of four, but there was only two of us. So we're cooking a meal, and then

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I'm flipping through my friend's videos on his computer, and here's this video titled The True Gospel of Jesus Christ by Paul Washer.

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And I'm scoffing. I'm going, what's this guy going to tell us that we don't know? And then my friend and I, we get our meals.

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We sit down and say, okay, well, we don't have anything else to do. Let's click on this. We click on it, and I'm watching, and he stops going at it.

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Six minutes in, I pause the video, and I'm looking at my friend. I'm like, are you hearing this guy?

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And he's like, yeah. And I said to him, do you realize that he's just destroyed everything that we know to be

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Christianity? We didn't think he was. And he's like, and I have 20 more minutes to go. And he's like,

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I thought I was the only one sitting here. And then we just pressed play, and we were just so consumed for that hour and 20 minutes.

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And even in the video, there were two people who seemed to stand up and leave midway. They might have been going to the bathroom.

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I don't know. But they seemed to be walking quickly, and the camera passed by their face, and it looked like they were frustrated.

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I don't know. I don't know. But that's exactly how we felt. That's exactly how we feel.

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We feel like we need to just stand up and take a break. And just from that moment onwards, our lives just changed.

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We were introduced to a brand new world that we thought did not exist. By the way, brother,

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I don't know if you could back away from any mouthpiece you're using or speakerphone, because there is some over -modulation for some reason, especially when you speak loudly.

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I'm not telling you to change the way you're speaking, but maybe just back away from the mouthpiece or the speaker that you're using.

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Is this better? No, it seems to be still over -modulating a bit. But we'll have to do with what we have.

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I'm forced to turn your volume down because of it, and I'd prefer not to have to do that.

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But if that's what I have to do, that's what I have to do. How about now? Hello?

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How about now, brother? Can you speak again? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm here.

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Yeah, it's still over -modulating a bit. I'm not sure why. It's strange, because when you first called in before the show, it wasn't doing that.

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But we'll have to deal with it, I guess. Well, to brag a bit about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, since you brought up Paul Washer, some of my listeners already know this, but I have been waiting over a decade to interview

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Paul Washer on this show. He is one of the few people that I know of that I have been really eagerly and prayerfully designed to interview for many years, that I was not getting any success contacting him and so on.

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And it just so happens, in God's providence, he was a speaker recently in New York City at a conference I attended, the

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Foundations Conference. And I approached Paul, asked him to have an on -site interview there, and he immediately said, well, brother,

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I'm sorry, but I need my pastor's permission to conduct any interviews. So I said to him, well, it just so happens

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I know your pastor, Anthony Mathenia. Can I text him, and if he approves, will you do it?

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And he said, sure. So I texted Anthony Mathenia, and he immediately responded and said, that would be a great idea.

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So Paul conducted the interview, loved it, I think much to his amazement, because I don't think he was expecting to love it.

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And he wrote me a glowing commendation for Iron Trip and Zion Radio just recently.

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It's not even on the website yet, but it's going to be very soon, God willing. So I just thought

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I'd throw that in there, and I will make sure I send him a recording of this interview so that he can receive the blessing of knowing of how the

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Lord used him in your life. And by the way, have you ever spoken with him? Did you let him know about this? No, I've never spoken with him.

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You know, around the young men that I've been around in South Africa, you know,

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Paul Washer has a halo on his head. He has just changed the

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Lord's uses ministry in a way that we'll only probably be able to see in glory. He has really affected a lot of young men and a lot of young women's lives to glorify

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God, to understand what it is to love the Lord Jesus Christ and follow him according to the scriptures.

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So I'm still waiting for an opportunity to meet him. I haven't had an opportunity to do so yet, but Lord willing, in the future at some point maybe, or I'll just meet him in glory.

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But I'm very thankful for him, yes. Praise God. Well, I want to give our listeners our email address if they have any questions about the

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Reformed faith in Johannesburg. And our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Let's say you disagree with the Reformed faith and you don't want to draw attention to your identity.

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Or perhaps you believe in the Reformed faith, but the church where you are a member rejects it, might even adamantly oppose it as heresy or something.

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Perhaps you're even a pastor and you are Reformed and you are at odds with your own congregation or denomination.

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Whatever the case may be that would drive you to want to remain anonymous, as long as it's a personal and private matter, we will grant that request.

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But otherwise, please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. And tell us about, first of all,

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I know that the Heritage Baptist Church of Johannesburg, South Africa is in a fellowship of churches called

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Sola Five. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, this is a great group of brothers who love the

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Lord Jesus. That's obviously a nickname from the Five Solas of the Reformation. Yep.

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The Watchwords of the Reformation. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, according to the

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Scriptures alone, by the glory of God alone. Amen. And so these are

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Reformed people, Reformed and Baptistic people. We're all over, really, Southern Africa, this group, but a lot of the churches that are in the group are in South Africa.

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A lot of them are confessionally Reformed, some of them are confessional churches and some of them are not, but generally all of them are

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Calvinistic and want to do things in a manner that honors the Lord. A lot of them are actually

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Master's Seminary graduates, and some of them are influenced by Master's Seminary graduates.

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And so you have that kind of mix of groups that's there. And it's a growing group, it's a small group, comparatively to the size of South Africa and the amount of churches in South Africa, but it is a growing group.

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And if you could summarize for our audience, because we have all kinds of listeners, they're not only Reformed, even though that's predominantly,

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I gather, most of our listeners are Reformed, judging from the emails I get.

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But there are people who are new Christians, there are people who are not

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Reformed, there are even people who are Muslim or in religions outside of biblical

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Christianity, like Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, there are even atheists who occasionally contact me, and there are members of cults and so on.

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So why don't you give us a summary of what it means to be a confessional church, because people might wrongly have their minds immediately believe that we are talking about the

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Roman Catholic sacrament of penance and confession, which is an unbiblical and heretical rite of the

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Roman Catholic Church, so obviously that is not what we're talking about. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean,

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I'm not sure of all the technical definitions that one would say, but I would just say that it's holding to a confession.

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So when we say confessional, we're talking about you holding to a confession that usually predates you. So it comes from some ages in the past, and so when we say confessional

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Reformed Baptist Church, generally we mean you hold to probably the second London Baptist Confession that was appended in Britain in London in 1689.

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And so when we say a church is a confessional, it means that there's a long tradition that goes with that, we hold to a...

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One of the reasons, actually, why our church was named Heritage Baptist is because we were trying to...

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The elders who planted the church, they were trying to dispel this idea of novelty that seems to be a big thing in South Africa and in other areas, too,

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I'm sure, where we want to be new, coming with a new thing, we're coming with a new word from God or anything like that.

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It's really just an anchoring ourselves on the long tradition of belief that is

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Reformed from the particular Baptist. Now, there are other brothers who probably are not confessional in that sense, just because they don't hold to that particular confession, or maybe another one, another one of those confessions, but they do hold to a statement of faith that has a lot of the classically

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Reformed positions, in terms of the doctrine of God, the doctrine of salvation, the doctrine of man, and so forth.

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Great. And what would be, in your understanding, or according to what you know, what would be the percentage of Christians in South Africa, or even if you want to even go broader on the

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African continent, if you know that, who are Reformed -believing

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Christians? You know, brother, like you said, from what

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I know, because the Lord is doing a lot of work, and so I'm not aware of everything that is going on, in terms of what the

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Lord is doing in South Africa and in Southern Africa, definitely not so much in Southern Africa, but in South Africa specifically, you generally have, you have a number of groups that have been traditionally

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Reformed, so you have the Reformed Evangelical Anglican Church, and that group, if you count the amount of members that they have, that's 0 .02%,

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0 .02 % of the whole population of South Africa. Now that's the members that they have at the last count,

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I suppose, that's the number that is publicly available on their website and things like that. These would be

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Anglicans that still adhere to the 39 Articles of Religion, which is their

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Confession of Faith, which is a very biblically sound confession, I believe, I agree with these

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Reformed Anglicans on the majority of the 39 Articles, and as I like to rib or make fun of my

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Reformed Anglican friends, I even agree with the wording in the 39

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Articles on baptism, because it says that you should not forbid children from being baptized, and as a

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Reformed Baptist, I don't forbid children, as long as they believe and repent, that's fine, they can be baptized, because it doesn't say infants in the wording, but even though I know that that's the way they understood it, there is no mention of infants in their baptismal statement in the 39

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Articles. Well, that is a funny joke. I think I'll try that.

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I have a number of friends, I think I'll try that with them, and see how far it gets me in the conversation.

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I must say that our brothers in South Africa that are Reformed Africans, they're very sharp people, so next time

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I interact with you after I've tried that, I'll let you know what the response is. Yeah, I have quite a number of friends here in the

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States that are Reformed Anglicans, and they're not all in lockstep with each other, but sometimes they have inside or in -house disputes, just like Reformed Baptists do, but they have usually in -house disputes over different things, such as what traditions of Roman Catholicism do they believe are permitted, and the worship and the practice of the

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Church. For instance, they might disagree, at least over here, I don't know about the case in Africa, but over here they would disagree over the practice of Ash Wednesday, for instance, and things like that.

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But they are still, nonetheless, a very solid group of folks, and they have a lot of prayer needed for the battles they face, not only against the leftist apostates on one end, but even on the

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Romish Oxford movement, Anglicans and Episcopalians on the other end. Oh, are they a big group over here?

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No, no, no, they're a small group, but I just happen to know a number of them because of the fact that I work in Christian radio and happen to be

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Reformed and have gotten to know probably nearly every single one in leadership in the

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United States, but yeah, it's a very small percentage -wise. Yeah, well yeah, so these guys in South Africa, they were constituted in 1938, splitting from the liberal branch of Church of England, and they have since established a college,

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George that is a really good school, and I have a lot of friends that have gone there, some who are going there, and they've all,

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I mean, they come up being very sharp, and they have a focus on church planting and on the mission of God in South Africa, so these are wonderful people, but they make up a very small percentage if you look at the numbers in South Africa in terms of what is

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Christianity, and by the way, in South Africa, if you look at official numbers of how big

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Christianity is, it says about 77 % to 80 % depending on where you look, and so when

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I say to you 0 .02 % of these people, you start to see that number in context.

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So let's step back a bit and get a broader scope of the religious atmosphere, and let's stick with South Africa.

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What would be the largest religious group, and then break down according to your knowledge from there to the smaller groups?

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Alright, so the biggest religious group is a group called the

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Zion Christian Church. This is, for all definitional purposes, this is a cult.

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It was started in 1924, I believe, by a man by the name of Elias Lechaniani, and $10 to any of your people who could say that.

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But it was started by Elias in 1924, he was influenced quite a lot by Pentecostalism, but he's also a very traditional man, and so he kind of syncretized the

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Pentecostalism with a lot of the African traditional religious understanding of who

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God is generally, and what God wants to solve. And the name of the group again was the

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Christian Zion Movement? Zion Christian Church. Zion Christian Church.

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Yeah, they make up about 30 % of the whole population of South Africa, and they are the second largest

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African -initiated group in South Africa, I think in Africa.

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No, I think I read this the other day in Africa, actually. That is, so African -initiated, so it's initiated by a native of Africa.

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It's the second largest group. There's another one up north somewhere. In fact, I want you to continue in your description of this group when we return from our first break, because it is the largest professing

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Christian group that you mentioned, so I think that we should know more about it. So let's pick up where we left off there, we're going to our first break now.

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If anybody again wants to join us with a question of their own, our email address is chrisarmson at gmail dot com, chrisarmson at gmail dot com.

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And as always, please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the U .S .A. And only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

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We'll be right back with the progress, opportunities, and challenges of the Reformed faith in South Africa right after these messages.

29:10

I've got to tell you, for my money, Chris Arnson's radio program is just the best.

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It's great to see him there. You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place, which is a highlight to me.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back, this is

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Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is, and I'm going to try to pronounce it correctly again,

40:30

Mpumelelo Kunene. Did I get it right again? Yeah, you got it right again, brother. And hey, by the way, you can just call me

40:37

Lelo, that usually works for me. Okay, Lelo, that's a lot easier. And we are discussing the progress, opportunities, and challenges of the

40:45

Reformed faith in South Africa. If you have a question for Lelo, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com

40:53

chrisarnzen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com

40:59

And as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

41:05

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And we were speaking right before the break about the

41:14

Zion Christian Church, which is a cult, and I believe you said in South Africa, or at least in Johannesburg, 30 % of the population there is a member of this cult, if you could correct me if I'm wrong there.

41:30

It's the whole country, so that's about 17 million people in the whole country to follow this.

41:39

And so we were saying that if you could explain exactly what synchristic means, and of course when you said it was a traditional church or religion, people may have the wrong idea, who use that term very differently in the

41:55

United States and other parts of the Western world, in the UK and so on, they might think that that's a good thing, that it brings back thoughts of traditional

42:06

Christianity, according to the way things have been done and believed for centuries and so on.

42:12

Well, I must say I appreciate what you're doing in helping translate, in helping me translate myself here.

42:20

We use the same language and mean different things. This is very helpful and very instructive.

42:29

So when I say traditional, maybe let me take a step back here.

42:34

So in understanding the Southern African, and really largely the African, but let me talk about the

42:40

Southern African psyche, there are certain traditional ways of thinking that have made up who, generally, who we are as Southern Africans.

42:50

And part of that is our love for tradition, in the ways of our fathers, and doing things in a manner that honors our fathers and those who came before us, and a lot of that is good.

43:02

But a part of that also is mixed in with generally our native religion, which is what we call the

43:10

African traditional religion, ATR. And that has in it the idea that there is a

43:18

Creator, one God, who created everything, and He reveals

43:24

Himself to different peoples in different ways, but to the African, the way that He works is that He speaks to the

43:32

African and organizes the life of the African through the ancestors.

43:38

So those who have died, those who are family members, who have died before us, they are closer to God, and so we need to keep them happy.

43:50

It's more nuanced than that, but to make it simple, we kind of need to toe the line in what the ancestors want us to do.

44:00

So if something goes wrong for me in my life, if perhaps a marriage that I was hoping would go well doesn't go well, somebody passes away that I love, or if I lose a lover, or if something goes wrong in my work, whatever goes on that's wrong, probably because my ancestors are not happy with me at this particular moment because I probably did something.

44:24

And so for me to fix this, I need to go to a traditional witch doctor. And again, this all varies depending on which tribe you're talking to throughout

44:33

Southern Africa, which tribe you're talking to and how it takes root in their particular people, but I'm just going to speak to you now in general.

44:41

You have to go to a witch doctor, a person generally, and by all definitions, this person is demon -possessed in my view, biblically.

44:51

And what this person is, this person, you go to them and they will talk to the ancestors for you and then they will let you know what you need to do in order to appease the ancestors.

45:04

So you have two intermediaries to get to God. You need to get to this person, this witch doctor, and get them to sort out, to talk, to tell you what the ancestors want.

45:14

And then get to the ancestors through this witch doctor and get them to be happy with you and then you get whatever you want to go well for you in your life.

45:25

So when I say traditional, I mean that the idea is that you can have

45:34

Christianity that mixes in secretistically these old traditions such that you don't have to choose between the two.

45:43

And so you have a lot of places where the witch doctor is being replaced by a prophet.

45:50

Somebody who calls himself, uses the biblical term of prophet because they're an emissary from God but really in everything that they're doing they're just replacing the witch doctor and putting

46:00

Christian terms on it. And so the way of life and the way of thinking about God is exactly really the same.

46:08

It's just now using the name of Jesus and using the Bible for wisdom and all sorts of, and with this particular group there's a lot of legalism that goes with it.

46:17

So you're not allowed to do a lot of things. There's a whole list of things you're not allowed to do. You have to be baptized a certain way and to go to church or to do particular things.

46:25

You have to be dressed a certain way. There's a certain uniform that you have to wear depending on how old you are and what gender you are.

46:31

You mean in the entirety of your life or just when you attend worship services? When you attend the worship service.

46:37

But even in the entirety of your life depending on what kind of person you are and what rank you are you have to wear a badge.

46:46

You know them by their badge and their hats that look pretty like military badges and hats actually when you just see them and we see them all the time all over the street.

46:55

They're wearing these hats and badges and they can't wear a normal life. I think they might get some special dispensation if they work a particular kind of job but generally when you're walking around the streets you'll see them with these badges on top of whatever they're wearing.

47:12

Now you said that they had a unique way or a specific way that you needed to be baptized. I'm assuming you mean for salvation.

47:18

I don't know that but what do you mean by that? Yeah. So the way of salvation here is they'll use the

47:25

Christian terms to you have to get forgiveness for your sins through Jesus Christ. You get baptized three times.

47:33

So you have to be baptized. Sometimes you have to be dunked three times in the water and then your sins are forgiven.

47:39

But then from my understanding now again I do not have extensive experience with this group because it's not so prevalent where I'm from in Durban but in Johannesburg over the years

47:51

I've been interacting with them a lot more. So I don't know a lot of the specific details but from my understanding that salvation is not permanent.

48:00

You have to follow so many other rules to maintain it and to keep it and to go forward with it.

48:06

You have to essentially be perfect. And being perfect is defined by doing the things that are being required of you.

48:15

You have to follow what the prophet says because so the man who started it he was the prophet so you follow him, what he said and then after he passed away there was a dispute between his children as to who's going to take over the leadership and become the prophet so then there's a split.

48:32

The main group is led by one of the sons one of the grandsons today and the other splinter group is led by one of the other sons one of the other grandsons and so now you have two groups and each of them have their prophet and you have to follow what that prophet says and when you pray or when you do different things you have to consider this prophet you have to think about this prophet you generally, your life is directed by him in many ways.

49:01

Now of course they use the bible and when they talk about things they'll use the bible and they'll have a lot of prophecies and things of the like but they have to follow what the prophet says.

49:12

Now do they, in other ways which sometimes makes a cult more dangerous do they have actually biblical beliefs in other areas like do they believe in a biblical and historically accurate understanding of the trinity do they believe in the deity of Christ the virgin birth of Christ the sinless life of Christ the bodily resurrection of Christ and many of the other pillars of the faith that they've contaminated with these other heresies?

49:48

Yes, a lot of them they believe in I do not know them to have a sound understanding of the trinity and I do not know them to fully properly understand the meaning of the death of the

50:03

Lord Jesus Christ but they do proclaim salvation in the name of the

50:09

Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit that's why they dip you three times in the water and then they do have that understanding but again it's not wholesome and they do have the understanding of confession, repentance so you have to repent from your sins you have to repent from your old way and they do preach from the

50:30

Bible so they do have, in one sense, as an authority so they do have a section in their minds that says the

50:38

Bible is God's word it is the authoritative God's word so they do have that in there but of course they nullify that by having other authorities that are equally, if not more important namely that is the prophets and essentially what the ancestors want done that also is binding so in a lot of ways they have a lot of those things in form but when you dig in it's not airtight and I understand from your presentation at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania last night that there is a split amongst this group because you have two siblings that are claiming to be heirs of the throne for lack of a better term in this cult correct and a lot of that is shrouded in mystery so I can't tell you much because there's just a shrouding in mystery of how all of that happened they're trying to keep this very airtight but essentially there is a split and it is a very clear split now when it comes to their biggest gathering which is really the highlight of their calendar year and it's the largest religious gathering in Southern Africa from what

51:55

I read and understand three to five million people they go to this mountain, Mount Moriah in Limpopo that's one of the nine provinces of South Africa South Africa has nine provinces and one of these provinces,

52:07

Limpopo has a mountain where really their grandfather, the man who started the church that's where he had his visions and that's where everything started for them and so that's their holy place and so they all gather there over the

52:23

Easter weekend and I think a little bit more than that there's a big pilgrimage throughout the country to go there every year around April or March now, obviously you and the theologically sound

52:41

Christians not only Reformed but those that are Bible -believing Christians even amongst

52:46

Arminians and others are in a basically tug of war for the souls of the community there and so what do you know of about their tragic success in luring people out of sound churches into the cult and also how much true

53:08

God -given success can you mention about people being drawn out of that cult into genuine repentance and faith oh brother let me start with that exciting note the second one in fact

53:21

I just looked at the clock and we have to get our midway break so if you could pick up your response when we return from our break if anybody wants to join us with a question we do have several people waiting in line and we'll get to you as soon as possible but if anybody else wants to join us with a question of your own for Lelo about the

53:42

Reformed faith in South Africa our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail dot com please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

53:56

U .S .A. only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors

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I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and my friend Chris Arnzen and I are excited to be attending another

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G3 conference together in Atlanta, Georgia Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th on a theme that is vitally important to all of us

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that's g3conference .com See you there As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations

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A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey pastored by Alan Dunn Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's

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God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world

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They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

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God in spirit and truth Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

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God -centered focus Reading, preaching and hearing the word of God singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith joy and sobriety

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Or call them at 908 -996 -7654 That's 908 -996 -7654

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Hi, this is

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John Sampson Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach and debate at numerous venues some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York I've had the privilege of opening

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God's word from their pulpit on many occasions have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

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New York debates I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught discipled and edified by the

59:49

Holy Scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ I also want to congratulate

59:56

Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder Pastor Christopher McDowell For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church go to hopereformedli .net

01:00:08

that's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711

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Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here

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I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years His name is Dan Buttafuoco Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer but not the type that typically comes to mind

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Dan also has a master's degree in theology Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states

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He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more and in approximately 10 different states

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01:03:51

This is Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially Grace Church at Franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

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Lord Jesus Christ And of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville maybe ten minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we hope you will join us some

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Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin Our website is

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GraceChurchAtFranklin .org That's GraceChurchAtFranklin .org

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

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Sovereign Lord, God, Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

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Say what's the word Tell me brother have you heard From Joe Tell me what's the word now

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Welcome back and we're going to be hearing more about Joe Hannesburg but I have a few important announcements to make before we return to our guest

01:07:45

Lalo who is going to be describing in more detail the success in a biblical sense in a salvific sense that the

01:07:53

Lord has granted true brothers and sisters in Christ in regard to evangelism and specifically evangelizing those involved in cults and false religions in South Africa but before we return to that discussion

01:08:08

I just want to remind you that a week from today Thursday January 9th from 11 a .m.

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to 2 p .m. I will be having the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon again this is a bi -annual event in Carlisle Pennsylvania and the last several of them have been held at the

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Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall here in Carlisle Pennsylvania and it is a really phenomenal facility very spacious and we thank the folks there at the

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Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall for making it very affordable for us to rent the facility our speaker, our guest speaker is

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Justin Peters who is an evangelist with cerebral palsy he is an advocate for the disabled and one of his key missions in life is to expose the deceptive dangerous and damning deceivers in the

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Word of Faith movement which is a branch of Pentecostalism that is extremely and severely heretical and basically teaching that people can speak things into existence whether good or bad whether, that if, no matter what kind of sickness or illness that you have if you have a strong enough faith you will with certainty be healed therefore many people don't even seek medical attention and die as a result of this wickedness so that is one of the key things that he speaks about and travels the world to expose and he is going to be speaking on the theme

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Protecting the Flock from Wolves not only will you get a free lunch and hear

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Justin Peters for free if you are a man in ministry leadership but you will also get free new books donated by many major Christian publishers in the

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United States and the United Kingdom and these are titles that I specifically selected from each of the publishers and they have donated 100 copies of these titles so that every man in attendance can go home with a heavy sack filled with these books so if you want to be there and take advantage of all these free things you can get all the details that you need at www .ironsharpensironradio

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.com there is a banner ad for the pastor's luncheon right there at the very top also you can just send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

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to register c h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com as I said this is for men in ministry leadership only pastors, elders and I think that's the same office by the way deacons, parachurch ministry leaders and other men that would be considered leaders so we hope that you can attend and please get me your registration your free registration no later than the 7th of January and as I said the event is

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January 9th Thursday January 9th 11am to 2pm at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall in Carlisle, Pennsylvania we have people coming as far away as North Carolina to this event not to mention

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Maryland and Virginia and other places surrounding

01:11:27

Pennsylvania obviously most of the men will be from Pennsylvania but we look forward to seeing all of you and also an event that's taking place later this month it is a phenomenal event that I have attended already for 3 years in a row and I am now going to be at my 4th

01:11:45

G3 conference Manning and Exhibitor's booth for IronTrap and ZionRadio at the

01:11:51

G3 conference which stands for Gospel, Grace and Glory is being held at the

01:11:56

Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia which is a suburb of Atlanta the theme is

01:12:03

Worship Matters and they as always have an absolutely mind -blowing roster of speakers to address this topic different elements of this topic under the umbrella of Worship Matters we have on the roster

01:12:21

Dr. Steven J. Lawson of One Passion Ministries who I just had the privilege to interview once again in New York City when

01:12:27

I was at a different conference recently conducted an on -site interview with him again we have

01:12:33

Anthony Methenia who is the pastor of Paul Washer that we heard our guest

01:12:40

Lalo raving about before and talking about what a powerful impact Paul Washer has had on not only his life but in the life of many in South Africa with regard to the

01:12:52

Reformed faith Paul Washer himself confirmed with me during my interview with him in New York City that he intends to be there and of course he has a very delicate health situation so sometimes he does have to cancel speaking engagements because of that very serious health problems involving his heart but we trust he will be there since he feels confident he will be there my friend

01:13:16

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries who has actually spoken at Heritage Baptist Church of Johannesburg, South Africa twice and he was delighted that my guest

01:13:27

Lalo was being interviewed today and he is an old friend of mine going back to 1995 and I have orchestrated over 20 public moderated debates with my dear friend

01:13:37

Dr. James R. White an extraordinary, brilliant brother in Christ will be there

01:13:43

Phil Johnson the Executive Director of Grace to You which is the media ministry of John MacArthur he has been interviewed on Iron Trip and Zion Radio more than any other guest on this program since we launched originally in 2005

01:13:57

Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Radio Derek Thomas the world renowned Presbyterian author teacher, preacher, pastor and conference speaker my friend

01:14:09

Dr. Tom Askell God willing will be there if his health continues to improve he also had a recent scare where he collapsed from behind the pulpit and was unconscious apparently he is recovering well and expects to be there intends to be there unless God has other plans

01:14:26

Dr. Tom Askell the Executive Director of Founders Ministries which is the Calvinistic ministry in the

01:14:31

Southern Baptist Convention Stephen J. Nichols the President of the Reformation Bible College the college founded by the late

01:14:38

R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries Kosti Hinn who is the nephew of the notorious heretic in Charlottetown Benny Hinn Kosti Hinn has renounced and repented of the

01:14:52

Word of Faith movement that he was raised in he is now a Reformed Baptist pastor and he is a cessationist as well and the latest update is he has accepted the call to a church in Arizona you heard

01:15:09

Dr. James R. White earlier mention that Kosti is pastoring in California but now he is pastoring in Arizona and we are delighted that he is going to be there and of course the huge news is that John MacArthur himself was added to the lineup

01:15:25

I would go there to the G3 conference even if it was just John MacArthur so that's Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th coming up very soon in Atlanta, Georgia or more specifically

01:15:37

College Park at the Georgia International Convention Center if you want to attend please go to g3conference .com

01:15:44

g3conference .com as soon as you can and register and from my interview last Friday with Josh Bice or actually

01:15:51

I think it was what date was it? it was actually Monday, I'm sorry my interview on Monday with Josh Bice he informed me that there's only like one or two spaces left for exhibitors booths like the one

01:16:09

I will be manning so if you would like to man an exhibitors booth for your church your parachurch ministry your business do so quickly before they completely run out of room so to register for attendance or for an exhibitors booth go to g3conference .com

01:16:27

g3conference .com last but not least if you love this show and you don't want us to disappear please,

01:16:34

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01:18:40

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01:19:16

click support then click to donate now if you are not a member of a local bible -believing church and you're not even prayerfully looking for one you're living in rebellion against God I can help you find a church,

01:19:27

God willing I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world including in Johannesburg, South Africa the church where our guest is a member

01:19:36

Heritage Baptist Church so, if you need help finding a church send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:19:41

and put I need a church in the subject line I've helped many people find churches all over the world where they have either visited and joined or where they have visited when they were on vacation or where they have recommended their family, friends and loved ones in those areas that do not have a church of their own so, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:20:02

and put I need a church in the subject line that's also the email address to send in a question to Lalo regarding our discussion on the reformed faith in South Africa that's chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:20:14

chrisarnson at gmail .com Lalo if you could pick up where you left off you were very excited about a question

01:20:20

I asked about the God -given success that you have witnessed and perhaps even been involved in yourself by the grace of God in winning souls out of the major cult the

01:20:37

Zion Christian Church and other false religions in South Africa yes so I've heard a number of stories but one that really has been exciting to us is my wife has been involved over this past year most of the time she's been walking with a young woman who was actually considered a prophetess in that movement and she has completely come to renounce it she loves the word she's learned it's been a long walk my wife has had to really pray and really work with her at discussing just how do you even study

01:21:17

God's word accurately and walking with her and teaching her that and I happen to read we run a bible study on a university campus where she was a student and I was able to take her through the gospel of Luke not for too long of a time but just seeing the fruit in her life and she was attending

01:21:36

Heritage Baptist while she was in Johannesburg at the university and the

01:21:41

Lord she's really a trophy of grace she just got married to a man that's actually at one of the churches that are sponsored by HeartCry in the townships in South Africa Praise God so it that young lady just warms my heart the

01:21:58

Lord has really worked in her heart and the Lord is really pleased to do that and there's a lot more that's happening that I might not be aware of but that one that one story is very dear to our heart at this moment

01:22:11

Tell us about some of the other religious groups that are rivals of biblical

01:22:17

Christianity that you face there in South Africa Yes So we have the

01:22:23

Zion Christian Church and then we have so within what is called the Evangelicalism in South Africa so if you look at the stats this is what is called

01:22:32

Evangelicalism but you'll see that a lot of it actually as I defined it's not so one of it is these if you read

01:22:42

Conrad Mbewe if you're aware of Conrad Mbewe and you read any of his articles you'll see that he's passionate about this particular subject because it is all over Africa and particularly over the past two or three years this has been a pandemic in Southern Africa where there are these prophets who are

01:23:02

Pentecostal they spring up a church they plant a church and they they use the

01:23:08

Bible they have everything the Trinity the Gospel the inspiration of the

01:23:14

Scriptures but they are Pentecostal and they are they are prophets and so they are trying to outdo one another in doing using and doing things that are miraculous as it were to try and solve people's problems and so some some of them make people eat grass or grass in American like Nebuchadnezzar why would why would they think that's a good thing well because of if you go back to the syncretism that I was talking about is because it's just a replacement of this idea that I have issues and God is not benevolent enough to to just hear me cry out to him and through Jesus Christ hear me and love me and look upon my issue no

01:24:02

I need to do these certain things in order to remove this blackness above me and so these prophets capitalized on that and they were making people eat grass they had people drink rat poison some of them were having people drink gasoline

01:24:17

I mean you hear there were actually there was one that was eating having people eat snakes in the church service and others have some of these prophets kick ladies in the stomach during the service if the lady perhaps has been struggling to conceive they'll kick her in the stomach you can just google this on youtube it is absolutely crazy

01:24:41

I don't know if you're familiar I don't know if you're familiar with the snake handlers here in the

01:24:50

United States in the rural areas of the south and Appalachia but there are Pentecostal churches that still exist believe it or not that because of a misapplication of that very famous biblical text they handle poisonous snakes and they also is that Mark 16?

01:25:08

yes and they they also drink poison to my knowledge they don't eat the snakes but I mean there's nothing wrong with eating a snake if it's dead and cooked of course but not a part of a religious ritual and so this is like even more bizarre than what we have here locally not that locally to me but it's as I said in the rural areas of the south predominantly yes and so we have this problem it's a real one and Conrad you can just read he's really lamenting this ideology and he has really an article that really explains the thinking if anybody's interested go to Conrad and Bayer's blog but in any event so we are dealing with that and Christians in South Africa generally especially evangelicals because they know these people aren't

01:26:00

Catholics they know these people aren't any other kind of old style conservative group they just see these people as being evangelicals and so we're all put in the same box as them and we're seen as fools by our colleagues at work and as we just live along we're seen as these people who cause these problems and the government is actually having conversations publicly about how they will try and stop this because now the evangelical church is seen as a threat to the livelihood of the people and a lot of it is sometimes gullibility perhaps a lot of it is what

01:27:08

Paul says to Timothy that they will gather to themselves itching ears and a lot of it is just people who just don't know who've never perhaps seen anything so we're seeing a lot of young men and women coming out of that through internet ministries so a lot of people are coming out of these pentecostal kind of environments that foster that kind of thing through the internet ministry they will somehow land on the internet just like a similar story to mine they'll land on the internet see

01:27:37

John Piper John MacArthur Paul Walsher saying something perhaps

01:27:43

Conrad Bayer they'll see something and the Lord uses that and then they start seeing wait there's a

01:27:49

Christianity more there's a reality of a dying savior whom if I trust in him my sins will be forgiven and actually it makes sense it's not this thing that I have to pursue do these things that look stupid and foolish but it actually it's a gospel that I can put my trust in so the

01:28:10

Lord has been using the internet and as the internet prices become cheaper and more accessible to more and more people all over the country the

01:28:19

Lord has been using that and then they flood into our solo five kind of churches other flood into the reformed

01:28:27

Anglican types of churches and even other types of more solid biblical churches perhaps that are not in those groups but we hear a lot that are leaving these kinds of ministries so it's not as much as this is infuriating and frustrating and it's coming with a lot of challenges we are also by the same token seeing the

01:28:48

Lord meeting some people especially younger middle class South Africans coming out of these things as they become more as they're thinking more and they're seeing how foolish all these things are and especially because whenever you find these things you will find a lot of immorality by these prophets and a lot of greed in terms of money and how they and their possessions so people just become disingenuous so they really start to distrust them so the

01:29:19

Lord is using that to bring people to the true gospel yes you mentioned earlier a dear friend of mine that I've known since 1995

01:29:28

Dr. Conrad Mbewe of Kabwata Baptist Church in Lusaka Zambia and also the

01:29:35

Chancellor of African Christian University and I believe he may have just changed posts there but he has warned many times of the heresies and dangers of the charismatic movement in Zambia and that it makes the charismatics that are here in the

01:30:03

United States appear extremely biblical and sound in comparison because as you were mentioning before he was saying that very often the pastors have really just adopted the title pastor and they are in essence witch doctors and he has even said that there have been some pastors that have sexually shared their own wives with men in the congregation to receive some kind of blessing from God and also of course that they have had rampant adulterous relations with women in the church themselves about a really nightmarish situation and by the way if anybody listening ever hears about Conrad Mbewe preaching at a church or conference near them they have got to hear this man he is actually my very favorite preacher on the planet earth he is a gifted man and he is able to see and explain these things very clearly and when he talks about that kind of immorality there was one who was actually on trial in south africa right now for having a harem of young girls it is absolutely atrocious the kinds of sins that these men are caught in and because they use the name of christ and by all definitions they are called christians we all get lumped together with them and it is you run out of superlatives because they just keep outdoing one another you know when paul says in romans 12 outdo one another and showing honor and serving one another well they outdo one another they're in a competition with one another to do another more foolish and more radical thing to prove their prophethood yes it's uh it is a shame so i'm assuming then from what you said uh thanks be to god the government in south africa does not sit back and allow these kinds of harems to exist and i also assume you met with underage girls is that what you were referring to that this is not legally permissible uh in south africa or at least in the areas that you're familiar with oh absolutely no no south africa thankfully we do have laws that that govern in terms of uh you can't you can't do things like that you can't have you can't be a pastor as a person who's in spiritual authority and have a harem of underage girls that you do those kinds of unspeakable things with it it's just it's it's not allowed and so this man that i was referring to has got a large ministry that's actually international based in south africa that man is currently is currently under trial wow well let me get to a few of the listener questions the listeners that have been waiting patiently at least i hope they've been waiting patiently uh we have uh harrison in mechanicsburg pennsylvania who asks i have heard from some missionaries overseas that cave in to pressure when they are surrounded by sheer paganism to have ecumenical relationships with churches and missionaries that profess to be christian but who deny the gospel including roman catholics eastern orthodox and other denominations that would not be in the pale of bible -believing christianity uh can you give us a little bit of a summary on how your church heritage baptist church in johannesburg has reacted to that kind of pressure so in our church we we love the gospel we love the lord jesus and we are committed to his word and anybody who shares that love and that commitment to god's word being the final authority of life and practice we generally we love and we work with those people we there there are a number of i would say heterodoxical and i mean people who are not who by all intents and purposes do not believe the gospel and would not be christian that we will never work with we will never work for example with someone like the one that we just mentioned now who even though they might have a statement of faith that is if you read it sounds biblical but their practices are biblical when they do these kinds of things that we were speaking about just now we would never work with those people however we also recognize that christians differ on secondary and tertiary matters and so we we love brothers who have a zealousness about god's glory and his word and some of those people like i mentioned the reformed anglicans so we are reformed baptists we are committed to 1689 but we recognize that the 39 articles is a biblical is a good confession that is that has a strong heritage and so we will work with people who love the lord jesus in that fashion we work with reformed anglicans for example in a student ministry kind of organization that we because you need an organization if you are trying to get into the university to be able to reach students and so we you have to kind of form a society a student society as it were and so we work with them in that kind of context on the university campuses so that we can do bible studies and bring a lot of students to come to know christ so we will work with reformed anglicans we consider them brothers they love the lord they love his word it is supreme to their minds we just come to differences and differences we have certain differences that perhaps would stop us from forming a church together or being in the same church but nevertheless these are people whose christianity we do not deny and of course there are other people who are either paid or baptists or perhaps various things that are tertiary and secondary that we would work with if they love the lord and we can see that there is evidence of faith in their lives and in their practice as well i don't know if that answers the question but that's generally how we view it right and well obviously when it comes to roman catholic missionaries though if they are faithful to the council of trance they would be denying the biblical gospel absolutely and so we will never we will never do anything together with the roman catholic we do not consider them to be to be to be preaching the gospel that has life in it we believe them to be preaching another gospel now what would you out of curiosity work with those that are outside of the realm of biblical christianity on providing aid physically to the community around you food and clothing and other things i know that that can be on one hand a wonderful thing and on the other hand it can be a dangerous thing because you are being aligned in the minds of people with their false gospel so i'm just curious if on the physical nature value well so i think i understand the question what we are being in johannesburg we're in a city really and that's possibly the most affluent city in southern africa probably in africa too one of the most affluent cities and so generally we have not really had people come to where we are at that have that kind of where missionaries come here to do that kind of work that feeding people anything like that we really haven't had to interact with that but i think i'll just say this that we know there are brothers and sisters who have come to south africa who are planting churches and then because other people within the churches have a desire to help out in other needs so for example there are a lot of orphans in south africa a lot of children that don't have homes and so some of these christians under the guidance of the local church but being separate from the local church as it were but under the guidance of the local church will form a home for children to care for them and do things of that nature and certainly we would see that that is a biblical thing in a sense that because those people are out of the abundance of their own hearts and they want to serve in that capacity but it is not a thing that touches the gospel well one would say it is an outflow of the gospel but it is not something that is a kind of a ministry or a missionary kind of tactic that is trying to manipulate people through providing things in order to say that you have converts it's not something that even touches it comes close to that it is churches that are biblical that want to further the work of the kingdom and then people from within those churches establishing these separate organizations okay we have

01:39:26

CJ in Lindenhurst Long Island New York who wants to know how great of a threat is Islam in South Africa Islam makes up 1 .3

01:39:38

percent of the population in South Africa so people who are adherents to Islam and a lot of the a lot of Muslims in South Africa are generally

01:39:50

Arabs generally Arabs that have that trace their heritage within one or two generations really from somewhere in the

01:39:58

Middle East and they pose a threat in the sense that of course there are false gospels that we have to deal with and we have to share the gospel with them we have to work with them and from where I'm from I was born and raised in the city in the surroundings of Durban which is on the east coast of South Africa and in that area there is a lot of Muslims and there's a lot of Muslims so I actually cut my teeth in evangelism through Muslim evangelism because that's what you deal with when you're in that region but in one sense here's the thing when people black

01:40:41

South Africans which is the majority of course of the country when they convert from whatever ethnic religion or whatever to become

01:40:49

Muslim and even to many centers to become Christian you actually still have to dig a little bit deeper because they're still practicing

01:40:58

African traditional religions as the core of their hearts so I've met a number of men who are

01:41:06

Muslims in Durban who actually when you talk to them their actual issue is that they still hold to this ancestral tradition that says that you need to appease the ancestors so they don't go to mosque but then they also go to the witch doctor to deal with the real issues of life and some of them actually the

01:41:28

Muslims in Durban have done what you were just talking about a moment ago where they feed the people and come with food and say come to a mosque and we'll feed you and so people would actually do it that way and so a lot of the conversion is very surface but people in their hearts they still hold to the ancestral kind of thinking so that's really the core that you have to deal with generally alright

01:41:51

I'm going to read a question for you and have you answer it when we return from our final break by the way folks the next break is going to be much shorter than the previous one

01:42:01

I forgot to warn my guest Lalo that our midway break is a long one because Grace Life Radio 91 .1

01:42:11

FM in Lake City Florida requires of us a longer break in our middle break because they air their own public service announcements during that break to localize our show to Lake City Florida I forgot to warn you about that because it was quite a long break but this next break is going to be short and so we'll have you answer the question when we return

01:42:34

John in Bangor, Maine asks I have heard stories of black

01:42:40

South Africans taking vengeance upon white South Africans farmers and others where their property has been stolen where they have been murdered by these black

01:42:51

South Africans taking vengeance vengeance how prominent is this and is this something that is seen as a growing horrific problem or something that is dying down we'll have you answer that when we return and again this is our final break in the show so we look forward to hearing from you with your questions before we run out of time at chrisarnsen at gmail dot com if you want to get behind John in Bangor, online with your questions we'll be right back this is

01:43:31

Pastor Bill Sousa Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially Grace Church at Franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

01:43:58

Lord Jesus Christ and of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God if you live near Franklin Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we hope you will join us some

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that's gracechurchatfranklin .org this is Pastor Bill Souser wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

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www .ironsharpensironradio .com www .ironsharpensironradio .com of course. And then second is that the farms are isolated.

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So if you're a criminal, you're going to like to go to a farm, and you're going to probably want to try your luck there because there won't be help any close.

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So a lot of people that die in these farm attacks are both black and white people.

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It's not necessarily a racial thing. In some cases, you get that sense that it is a racial situation that's happening there where those people are angry.

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But when you look at the statistics, the numbers really show that that is not the large majority.

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A large majority of this is just crime that everyone in South Africa is dealing with, that is just a part of our country.

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And we're trusting the Lord to help us with that. I might also just mention that in South Africa, because of these racially charged everything that's going on, everything is racial, the church really has an opportunity at this moment to unite, to show a multicultural, when you have a multicultural church that sings songs and worships in English, but also perhaps in one of the home languages of South Africa, and you have a church like that, where the people from across racial divides love one another, you have an opportunity to show the love of Christ to win people over in the country.

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And so the church has that opportunity. And a lot of our reformed churches are growing in that, and we're trusting the

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Lord for that, specifically that we would be a community that shows the love of Christ across racial divisions.

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And in fact, your marriage is an example of a ministry to those around you, demonstrating how the blood of Jesus Christ tears down all barriers that would include any kind of racial or ethnicity and skin color.

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And your wife happens to be a white American young lady, and a former member of Grace Reformed Baptist Church in Chambersburg, Pennsylvania?

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Correct, yep. The Lord has blessed us with even one son who is neither of our two ethnicities.

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Is it Grace Reformed Baptist Church or just Grace Baptist Church in Chambersburg? Grace Baptist Church in Chambersburg, with the pastor

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Craig Harris over there. Right, right, which is a church plant of the church where I'm a member, and I'm sorry folks that even though I've known of your existence for quite a while,

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I sometimes forget the full name of the church. I would like you now to summarize what you most want etched on the hearts and minds of our listeners regarding South Africa and regarding the reformed faith there before we run out of time.

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Well, just if you could pray, just pray that the Lord would continue the work that He's doing in getting people out of these cultish and out of these profit -rich areas, and that the

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Lord would give the church in South Africa real unity, even in light of these racial divisions, which is a big part of what's going on in the psyche.

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And that, be hopeful. We trust the Lord even in the midst of all the challenges that we have.

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We are trusting the Lord that He's not forgotten us, even though there's a lot of things that are going on that are wrong, and you might hear a lot of things in the news, and you might hear things that sometimes are maybe charged one way or the other.

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But just remember that the Lord has not forgotten us, and we're trusting that the Lord has not forgotten us.

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And pray for us that we would grow in grace, whatever prayer that you pray for yourself, in terms of wanting to love the

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Lord Jesus Christ more, wanting to honor Him practically in our daily lives, and wanting to change the culture so that Christ is magnified in the lives of even others and all the people that are around us.

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Pray those same prayers for us as well as we're trying to follow Him as your fellow brothers.

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And don't forget, the website for Heritage Baptist Church in Johannesburg, South Africa is heritagebaptist .co

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.za. Heritagebaptist .co .za. And folks, please don't remember about the

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Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio Pastor's Luncheon next Thursday, January 9th. If you want to attend, if you're a man in ministry leadership, it's free of charge.

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Register as quickly as possible at ironsherpanzionradio .com. You'll see a banner ad for the luncheon, and you can just email me also at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. I thank you so much, Lalo, for being my guest today. I look forward to your frequent return in the future to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio as my guest.

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I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater