Preterist DEBATE! Dr. Sam Frost vs Stacy Turbeville

Hello and welcome. I think we finally got this figured out. Very sorry, we've been having some technical difficulties, but I think we are good.

Thank you for tuning in to The Apologetic Dog, where it's our heart's desire to guard the gospel of grace, and we do this by avoiding pagan philosophies.

We do this by looking at any professed knowledge that tries to rival against the knowledge of God, and we show that it's actually internally contradictory.

And so that's our heart's desire here at The Apologetic Dog. I also want to inform you that I serve as a pastor and elder at Twelve Five Church here in Northeast Arkansas, more specifically

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That's the word twelve, the number five, twelvefivechurch .com. And so today, it's a very interesting episode that we have.

A lot of times we are exploring Reformed theology, we are looking at apologetics, and we're doing all that kind of wrapped into one, but we are having our first live debate.

And so I actually want to introduce to you a co -moderator, Trey Fisher. Can you hear me out there?

Hello, I got you. Man, we are running behind the schedule, but it's all good,

Trey. It's all good. Hey, God Sovereign. What about it? What about it? God Sovereign.

This is all part of your sanctification process, and we're good to go. Yes. Well, we have some up -and -coming announcements

I was hoping that you could help me fill everybody in about, and so in a couple weeks, we're gonna be going to Arizona.

What's going down there? In Arizona, ReformCon. Obviously get to listen to a lot of great speakers about the gospel in our context, where we live in our culture and our society, and advancing that.

But we're really excited about doing some podcasts there at ReformCon with some people, and really excited about doing

Cultish again. It's gonna be examining the Church of Christ, answering questions of the first one that I was able to do on Cultish about the

Church of Christ, answering pros and cons, but I have my friend with me this time, Jeremiah Nortier.

Yes. He'll be sitting there with me, and we'll be answering some objections, and talking about it, and talking about all the good that's come out of that podcast, from preachers in the

Church of Christ to just people in the Church of Christ. All the emails, the messages, everything.

So we can talk about all the good that's come from it that people might not know about. Yes. Well, hey, when we get to meet...

And thy kingdom come. Yeah, that's true. When we meet with Jeff Durbin, we have a surprise for him from our sponsor,

Bearded Brothers. Trey, you need to get some of this, man. This is Lemonwood beard oil, but you got to grow out your beard a little bit more.

I knew that was coming. I've got a baby beard. That's okay. Well, I'm really excited.

We have some interlocutors on the channel. What's that? Is that a heresy?

Let me show you what some interlocutors look like. We have with us

Dr. Sam Frost and Stacey Turbyville. Mr. Stacey, did I get your last name right?

That's right. Yes, I've been practicing that. Well, we're so glad to have you on the channel.

If you would, Mr. Stacey, please tell us a little bit more about you. I've seen some of your debates in the past.

Maybe you can direct people to where they can find more of your content. Yeah, you can just pull me up on Facebook or just type my name in YouTube and you can see all my debates.

I've grew up Baptist my whole life. Close to 25 years ago,

I started studying eschatology, and over the years, as I study and learn, compare things to the

Word of God, of course, I've made lots of changes. So, we're here tonight discussing one of the big changes.

That would be a big change. Now, speaking of changes, Dr. Frost, you've had some changes in your life as well.

You've kind of been in Mr. Stacey's neck of the woods, and now you're somewhere else.

So, if you would, tell us a little bit about your journey talking about eschatology and things like that.

Well, most probably watching this know the story. I now grew up in church,

Foursquare Gospel Church, dispensationalist. Fifty -five years ago, went to Bible college, was exposed to theology and church history and all of that, and so went down the

Canterbury Trail into the Episcopal, and the Episcopal reformed and reformed and Presbyterian and Amillennial, Postmillennial, went through all of those forms of eschatology for the pertinent topic at hand.

Got into Preterism and then went into full Preterism. Was one of the main leaders there after I was talking with Max King and Tim King for a while, and they published a book of mine, and the next thing

I know, I'm speaking at all of these conferences, about 20 -some conferences over the next several years from 2003 to 2009, so being invited to speak, you know, everywhere.

So, published a few books. Don Preston publishes one, Exegetical Essays on the

Resurrection of the Dead. I wrote a chapter for House Divided with Mike Sullivan and David Green.

Misplaced Hope was the book that was published first. The first book published 2002 by Millennial Press.

That was Max King and Tim King's outfit. They're out in Colorado Springs now, and around 2009, as always, continuing to study, continuing to stay in seminary and earn, you know, various degrees, and this, that, and the other.

Began to see the holes in what I call Hyper -Preterism or Full -Preterism. This was a sold my business for.

I have a question for you. Where is a website that people can find your material? Well, on Facebook, you can find me there,

Samuel Frost, Sam Frost, and then Vigil .blog, V -I -G -I -L .blog.

Awesome. Well, I want to encourage people to go look up these two men. Thank you so much,

Mr. Stacy, for joining us. We reached out to Michael Sullivan, and we said, hey, let's get a debate set up with you and Dr.

Frost, and he wasn't having none of it. So we just want to thank you so much because hopefully you can bring clarity from the

Full -Preterist perspective of how to look at a lot of these verses, and hopefully this will be very beneficial to people.

So thank you so much for coming on. I just have one last thing to say.

I am looking forward to this, and we are going to start off with you, Mr. Stacy.

You're going to have 15 minutes for your opening statement, and when there's one minute left, you're going to hear this sound, and that is just letting you know you have one more minute.

And so the debate proposition, just so everybody knows, hopefully I do at this point, but we're talking about, did the second coming of Jesus Christ already happen at 70

AD? Stacy is saying yes, it did. He's taking the affirmative, and Dr. Frost is taking the negative.

So Mr. Stacy, whenever you begin speaking, I will start your timer. Can I ask one thing?

When I speak, is Stacy off -camera, and when he speaks, am

I off -camera? Are we going to be... Oh no, everybody can see you chilling there in the corner. Stacy has a little bit of an audience, so it's to spice things up a little bit.

Okay, Mr. Stacy, it's all you. Alright, I'm going to make this statement to start off with.

I'm going to go over four reasons why I think preterism is the true teaching of Scripture.

And to me, a foundational verse that says, the Lord's plans are forever from generation to generation.

Psalms 33 11. Remember that phrase, generation to generation. So the four topics

I'm going to discuss, I'm going to start off with the last days. The last days is a phrase in Scripture that people turn as meaning the end of the world.

But if you study it scripturally, it's the Old Covenant age.

If you go to Joel and it says, in the last days I'll pour out my spirit. That phrase is spoken by Peter in the first sermon when the

Holy Spirit came down at Pentecost. So Peter is putting that prophecy in his day, on that day at Pentecost.

The writer Hebrews says that in these last days, meaning he was living when the last days was occurring, in these last days

God spoke in the Son. So when Jesus came, he was in the last days.

And you'll have a last day, Jesus talks about it in John 6, where he resurrects, talking to the apostles.

So that phrase to me, last days, has to be contained into the

Old Covenant age. Now the second thing I'm going to talk about is the purpose. The end game of Scripture is

God's Spirit on man from generation to generation. That's all the

Old Testament gets to. That is the climax. So when you get to the

New Testament, that's the fulfillment. The Old Testament is the Scriptures.

The New Testament is the fulfillment. And the promise is that God is going to give a new covenant and he's going to put his

Spirit upon man. That is the end game. That's the purpose of God's plan.

And that key phrase, generation to generation, he states offspring, your offspring and their offspring.

This is a continuation. This is people having babies. But the point is the

Spirit of God is going to continue forever as people get saved. The prophecy about Christ says his government will increase forever.

This is what it is. As the sand of the sea and the stars of heaven, people will be getting saved forever.

That's what Scripture is talking about. So when you get to the New Testament, that's what happens.

When you go to Revelation 21 and it talks about the new heaven and new earth. It's just another phrase for the

New Covenant age. It's God's Spirit coming down, Revelation 21 3.

On the saints. The saints are given the kingdom, Daniel 7 22. Because the saints are taking the gospel to the world.

And the gospel is the city that's always open continuously as the nations are coming in and getting saved.

If you read, continue on from chapter 21 22 through the end of that chapter and then go to Revelation 22, they taste of the tree for healing.

If this is a utopian planet where there's no more sin and death, literally, you're not going to need any healing.

That makes no sense. Nor will you need nations coming into a city. If you go to 22, if you keep reading 14 and 15, it says outside the city are the sinners.

So you got a problem. You got sinners in the new heaven and new earth. The prophecy on the new heaven and new earth, which is

Isaiah 65 and 66, again speaks of the offspring. But look at the characteristics.

They live to be a hundred or they don't. They build houses. They go up on the

Sabbath and worship. This is New Covenant language. This isn't some new planet language where we are living in, you know, no sin, no physical death.

None of this is mentioned in Scripture. It's talking about the New Covenant Kingdom where people are getting saved in the

Spirit. That's the purpose. Thirdly, I'm going to mention is the nature.

The nature of the New Covenant Kingdom is the Spirit. The Spirit is the

New Covenant Kingdom. If you go to 2 Corinthians 4 18, it says the immortal is invisible.

The not seen is is forever. Paul explains this in 1

Corinthians 15. He says your first body is the natural. Your second is the Spirit. It even makes a amazing statement when you get to 1

Corinthians 15 50. It says, now I say this brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does perishable inherit imperishable.

In other words, physical bodies aren't going to literally be coming out of the ground and becoming imperishable.

That contradicts Scripture. Again, the point is God's Spirit on man, which is the

Old Covenant promise, that again lasts forever from generation to generation. Ephesians 3,

Paul makes that confirmation that it's the church. 321, it's the church forever from generation to generation.

He's basically quoting Isaiah 59 21 and go into 60. The saints are the ones that are the light, carrying the gospel to the world, that God gave it to the saints.

Daniel 7 22, after the judgment. They are the stars of Daniel 12 3, that are going out teaching righteousness.

And that leads me into my fourth point, is the time indicators. In Daniel, you have the kingdom is going to be set up during the four kings.

Well, the Roman Empire is the last one. They've been gone 1 ,700 years. You go to Daniel 7, again, when

Jesus goes up to the Ancient of Days, God takes the kingdom and he gives it to the saints after the judgment.

And this is what Isaiah 60 is talking about. It's us giving out, we are the light, giving out the gospel as people get saved.

The nations come into that light, coming into the kingdom.

That's the New Covenant teaching of Scripture. If you go to 12, the first three verses are the

Great Tribulation, the raising of the dead, the Old Covenant dead, and then the gospel going out.

That's 12 1 through 3. When does it happen? Verse 7, when the power of the holy people are shattered.

The holy people are Old Covenant Israel. They're shattered because their city's destroyed and their temple's destroyed and the presence of God is taken away.

The power of Israel was the presence of God who was fighting for them. So that's what

Daniel's telling Daniel. And Daniel, he tells Daniel, close this vision for the times not now and you'll go to sleep with your fathers until the end of the age.

So when we get to Revelation 22, he says open the book, the time is now.

I am coming quickly. The book is open because it's about to be fulfilled, the resurrection of the

Old Covenant dead. That's when heaven opened, when the temple, the physical temple was destroyed.

Hebrews 9, 8 is when heaven opened and that's when Jesus, that's when God resurrects the

Old Covenant dead and they are judged. And then the Spirit of God comes down in fullness and the kingdom is now open to anybody.

That's what Revelation 21 and 22 is talking about. These are events on earth. This is not some new literal planet after heaven and earth is destroyed.

Those statements are taken out of context. It's talking about Old Covenant Israel being destroyed and New Covenant Israel taking effect.

That's what the Scriptures are talking about. So it's not talking about a literal planet.

There's many passages in Scripture that says the planets here forever. Kingdoms come and kingdoms go but earth is established forever.

The earth sits on its axis forever. There's many passages that can contradict this idea that the physical planet is destroyed.

We have to take it into context what it's talking about. So those are a lot of the time indicators pointing to this

New Covenant kingdom. And look at some of the statements Jesus made. He told the Apostles before you go to all the cities of Israel the

Son of Man will come. They've been gone 2 ,000 years. Matthew 16, 27 through 28,

Jesus said before some of you standing here will not taste death until the

Son of Man comes with the reapers. That is just too damaging. Some of the

Apostles still living. John was going through the tribulation with them. Revelation 1 .19

said these are the things that have happened, are happening, are about to happen.

This is an event in their lifetime. Matthew 23,

Jesus is talking to the Pharisees and he says all the judgment, all the blood of the prophets will be on your generation.

I don't see how we can twist that. Then you get to 24 and what he's talking to the Apostles in a private meeting and he says you're gonna see the abomination of desolation and then all these things are gonna happen to you.

And it mentions the Great Tribulation and then it says immediately after is when the sign of the

Son of Man comes. See the Son of Man is not gonna be physically riding a cloud. It's the sign.

They knew this. That's why Paul says the second Thessalonians 2 .2

some had already been going astray that he already returned. That's not, that's not, if he was returning physically you can't confuse anybody.

Especially if it's gonna destroy a planet. None of those teachings fit scripture.

They're looking for the sign and the sign is the army surrounding Jerusalem. When you see the army surrounding

Jerusalem know that the end of all that is written is fulfilled. All that was written in the

Old Testament. You're talking the resurrection of the dead and the gospel going out.

Everything in the Old Testament fulfilled at that time period because the point is ushering in the new covenant kingdom.

That's the point of scripture. That's the endgame promised by God. He created this earth.

It's here forever and we are here forever. Now it's you have to put on your big boy britches to believe this because what that means is we're all gonna die physically.

That's just the way it is. That's God's plan. But we'll be resurrected. That's the promise.

The destination is heaven. Jesus said I go to prepare a place and there I am you may be also.

Paul said we don't know how he is now but we know we'll be like him. If he was in his natural body we know how he is.

That's not the point. You're raised spiritually. Jesus was allowed physical resurrection to prove the kingdom.

Acts 10 40. It's the same reason the apostles and Jesus did all the healings and miracles.

They were signs to Israel that this new covenant kingdom had come. That's why the Jews had to be present when

Cornelius got the gospel. It was all about signs during that generation but that's not how the

Spirit is poured out now in fullness. It's all about fullness of knowledge and being able to walk in holiness.

We don't raise the dead. We don't heal the sick. I mean you got people out there lying and teaching that but you know we can admit what's really going on here and we got it we got to go with what scripture teaches.

Otherwise we're saying Jesus and the apostles lied about everything they said. If everything

Jesus said none of it happened when he said it happened then we're calling him a false prophet. Jesus was accurate.

He's the true prophet according to Revelation. Everything he said came true. So when he said he's coming back and he's coming back without observation.

It's invisibly because he's in a spirit body. Again the invisible is immortal not the physical.

The imperishable didn't put on perishable. So I mean all these things line up perfectly with preterism which

I call the new covenant kingdom. It just makes complete sense and it all lines up and there's no point that I can find or can argue against it.

It's just ironclad teachings and again the old covenant is the scripture.

What is the endgame of the old covenant? What does God say is going to be his new covenant?

And the New Testament tells you it's the saints. Read Isaiah 60.

Read Micah 4. The saints are given the kingdom. They're the stars.

They're the ones showing, teaching righteousness. It says we'll go up to the mountain of the

Lord and learn. There's no reason to go learn in a perfect planet where everybody knows everything and we're forever.

None of this stuff fits that the church teaches. We just need to, in a perfect scenario as I made to comment earlier,

Sam's got all these books behind him. I gave all my books away. You need one book folks and it's the

Bible. Read God's Word. Put all that other mess behind. You got to read the

Word of God. His Word counts and I'll yield my time. Thank you so much for that.

I see somebody else that has a lot of books behind them too but he's muted. I wanted to make a quick announcement for anybody in the live chat.

If you have questions, I'm seeing some questions in the live chat. We're going to have an audience Q &A at the very end.

So if you would please type the word question and then a little dash with your question and then we will talk about that.

Address your question to someone because they'll have up to two minutes to address that and then the other, the interlocutor will also be able to respond with some of their thoughts up to one minute.

So I just want to remind the audience, please send in your questions. We would love to tackle those at the end.

So thank you Stacey for that awesome opening statement, staying within your time. I appreciate that.

Now, Dr. Frost, the man with many books in the background, what do you have to say to all that?

Well, I can't do any rebuttal yet. That's true. You got 15 minutes to give your opening statement.

Okay. My last six years here on being alive has been spent over presiding over funerals, four of which have been my own family members, two of which were extremely close to me and that I miss on a daily basis.

One of them was taken out by cirrhosis of the liver. He died puffed up and filled with liquor liquid that had to be drained and for two weeks we administered hospice to my dad.

My sister died of a brain cancer that I had two weeks to say goodbye to her. She was one of my best friends.

My first cousin, which I consider a brother of mine, was murdered and left for dead in the streets after he had been stabbed.

My other cousin died of alcoholism. Another cousin of mine died a very slow, painful death that took a couple of years to take him out.

I could go down the list of several other funerals that I've been involved with. Death is a real thing and death was not in the beginning.

When God created the heavens and the earth and the Spirit, the Holy Spirit that we find in the

Prophet Joel and that our Apostle Peter mentions in Acts chapter 2, is the same

Spirit that hovered over the waters of the earth at the beginning, in the very beginning. There is a purpose of God and death and evil is not it.

The infinite idea that there would be child molestation and murder and rape and stabbing and human trafficking and wars and little babies being blown apart for infinity and that God is pleased with this.

That's not a God that I want to worship nor care about. But the God of Scriptures begins with creation and he orders all of his creation and he says it is good.

He created good because this tells us something about the nature of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

He is a good God. He likes good. Good erupts from his heart because it is the very character of his being.

Holiness is the very character of his being, not sin, certainly not evil, and certainly not evil acts.

Because of the sin of Adam and the transgression, but yet because of that act of transgression and act of sin,

Paul said sin abounded, but he said grace much more over abounded.

It's one thing to make a mess, which is easy to do if you've had kids. It's easy to make a mess.

The hard thing is cleaning up the mess. And that's what the super abounding of grace is. It's God saying, you know what?

I'm going to clean this up. This is going to get cleaned up. And when I'm done cleaning all of this up, it's going to look even more glorious in the end than it is in the beginning.

And that becomes then the purpose of God. That becomes the metanarrative. That becomes the larger picture of which all of these things that God begins to orchestrate in what we call a series of covenants, that he begins to deal with human beings.

He does not leave them. He does not leave Adam. He comes and shows himself to Adam, and Adam confesses his fault to him, and God makes him a promise.

A seed of a woman will come and will undo what the serpent has done, which he, by the way, curses the serpent.

What he says, because you did this. And so his aim is at the serpent, to destroy the serpent.

We find out later that the serpent is identified as the devil who kills, steals, destroys, murder, adultery, child rape, child molestation, child pornography, all of the evil, the disgustingness, the depravity of evil.

And how anyone could actually suggest that this goes on for infinity, to me, is offensive to the very character of God.

The thing that allows theology to do what it is that it does is because we recognize that however many thousands and thousands of years

God's purpose unfolds in time and space and in history, we know it's temporary. We know that evil is temporary.

And then that begins to allow us to entertain this notion called hope.

Everything in all religion, in all of mankind, every philosophy, all of these books back here behind me, 30 -some years reading and everything,

I noticed one, there's several patterns that you can find in all the religions, ancient, Near Eastern, it doesn't make any difference, all times, all cultures, is that they yearn for a better life.

They have this thing in them about justice. There's something that cries out about the fountain of youth and wanting to live forever.

Something went wrong, but yet there's something internal, whether it's Karl Marx, or whether it's

Darwin, or whether it's Einstein, or whether it's Sigmund Freud, or whoever it is, it doesn't make any difference.

They're all wanting a better life. Everybody wants a better life. They want their kids to have health and a better life.

So the idea of evil and the idea of destruction, that's the very opposite of what we would call good.

God is not ever called evil. God is called good. And we know throughout the scriptures that the whole purpose of Abraham's covenant, well before I even get to that, by the time we get to Noah, it grieved the heart, and please don't callous or minimize or sweep this under the rug, let the power of what the scriptures say, it grieved the heart of God that he had made man.

That's what evil does to God. It grieved God's heart that he had made man.

And he's going to live with this forever, for infinity, with by the time it got to Noah, his heart was grieved that he was wanting to destroy all flesh, and yet he found grace.

There's that super abounding of grace. There it is, right there. So what was it that grieved the heart of God?

It was because man was evil. Man was performing evil acts, doing evil things.

The first thing that we see right out of the bat, and I've experienced this, was Cain murdering his brother.

I had mentioned that one of my first cousins, who I grew up with, he's like a brother to me, we grew up together, was murdered and left for dead in the streets.

Murder is a horrible, disgusting depravity. It's a horrible thing. It's so against the character and offends the holiness of God and who he is.

And this is not for infinity. This is something that's going to be eradicated. This is something that's going to have justice served towards in the end, where all of these acts of evil will be rectified.

We believe in this, and we hope in this, and therefore we live our lives in this, waking up each morning with the hope in the glory of God that he is going to bring justice.

And in fact, we see little sunlights of justice here and there in our courts, which is why we rally for justice.

It's the very notion of justice. We want justice. But the idea that there will be no justice for infinity, that's not the

God of the Bible that I read about. Instead, we find a God entering into these constant covenants of blessing, of bringing blessings.

I'll bless all the nations through a seed. And there's that seed again that comes through the woman.

That seed's been promised in Genesis chapter 3, but we find him again. There it is in Abraham's covenant.

We go down the list, and there it is again. So where's this seed? Where's this one that's going to come, that's going to bring about the end and bring about the blessings?

And according to Isaiah chapter 25, is going to remove the shroud that covers over all the nations.

I will swallow up the death, which is the shroud that covers over all the nations.

And I will remove all pain and there shall be no more tears. I will wipe away their tears. See what the end is?

It's to remove what entered in through Adam, Romans chapter 5. Not for infinity that what came through the man, sin, death, because of law, and now we're under slavery and bondage to sin so that we have to grow old and corrupt and then die so that we can return to the dust that God made

Adam to live and stand above and have dominion over all things, including dust, including the earth.

Not to be returned to it, but to be above it.

See, this is why I get up in the morning and his mercies are new every morning because his breath is new every morning.

And I get to breathe again his breath so that there's hope. And I look for justice and I try to bring it, whether in my jail ministry or whether church ministry or whether I'm working with children or wherever I'm at, children of divorced families, wherever it is in justice,

I'm trying to bring good, not evil. But the reason why we do that is because we realize that evil one day will be eradicated.

And so if I can bring about little eradications here and there daily in my life through Jesus Christ by the outpoured

Holy Spirit that empowers me to do this with the fellowship of other saints, of which I most dearly need, because we're members of one body of Christ that he has brought together through his blood.

Now, what did he have to do to affect this? What did the cross, this suffering of innocence, who suffered in ways that I can't imagine finally to be hung up naked in front of his own mother?

Now, if that doesn't just punch you right in the face, then you're not reading the gospel. You're not reading the

Bible. If it doesn't disgust you that God himself became grieved that he had created man, you're not letting the

Bible say what it's supposed to say to your heart. You've become callous, dismissive. Every act of child molestation and murder is disgusting.

It's an affront to God, but it's the laughter of Satan. It's the laughter of evil and the wicked men.

And these men are not going to be permitted to last forever. The cross of Jesus Christ, which was the ultimate injustice, was triumphed over by the ultimate resurrection of the dead, because that's what life looks like.

That's what justice looks like. He even triumphed over the dust of the earth and death itself.

And if I'm in him and he's shaping the body of Christ, this corporate body of Christ of which we are members of, then that's what we're going to participate in, resurrection over death itself, where even my tears will be wiped away.

That's how minuscule, down to the point of the eradication of evil that God is going to get.

There will not be a drop left. When through the redemption of Jesus Christ and the price that he paid on the cross is finished, there will not be a drop of evil left.

If there is a drop of evil that is left, then God is not God. And his promises are null and void, because those are the promises that he made.

In fact, and I'll conclude with this, because to me, this overarching theme, so well coupled with all of the religions, all of the cultures that we find, offers a very powerful apologetic because it's relevant.

When I start talking about death and evil and injustice, I can go anywhere and people immediately are going to identify, oh, yes, we don't like that.

That's unjust. We need justice. We need just, well, that's my language, but see, that's the language of the

Bible. It's the language of human beings. But the idea that this is going to go on forever and God's already dealt with everything and it's already all fulfilled and everything's happy, hunky, do -dory, very difficult to relate to.

I tried to make it relate, but in the end, I found that it didn't relate hardly to anyone because no one really was understanding what

I was saying. In Isaiah, or in Matthew chapter 13, with the last two minutes that I have,

Jesus gives a very simple, very simple parable. And he talks about a field in which he went out and they sowed seeds.

The kingdom of heaven was like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, an enemy came and sowed weeds.

And he went away and the weeds sprouted and formed heads. And then the weeds also appeared and the owner servant came and said, sir, didn't you sow good seed?

Where did these weeds come from? And he said, well, an enemy did this. Okay, well, let us pull up all the weeds so that we can have, you know, the wheat.

And the harvester says, no, let both grow together. I can identify with that because we have that in the church where we have evil and we have good.

We have, we have scandals. We have adulteries. We have all kinds of things like King David, you know, he had an adultery and then had the lady that he had adultery with killed.

It's nothing new. Jimmy Swagger, Jimmy Baker, we've seen all this stuff. It's, it's going to end.

That's why I can identify with the scriptures because I'm like, yeah, I've seen that before. So I don't get too shocked because I know

God's going to end it. But Jesus explains this parable. He says, as the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age, the son of man will send out his angels and they will weed out of his kingdom.

Now, what is this kingdom? Well, he says it right here. The harvest is the end of the age and the harvesters are the angels and the field is the world.

That's the king. God's kingdom is the whole world. He rules over the whole world. And it says right here that he's going to remove out of his kingdom, everything that causes sin and all who do evil, everything that causes sin and all who do evil will be removed, which is what the

Bible says over and over and over again that came in through the one man. All of that came through the one man will be removed and none done.

It's temporary. And I'll stop there. Thank you so much. What an excellent opening statement.

I just want to thank y 'all so much so far for y 'all's respect and y 'all's passion. I'm learning a lot and I just want to also encourage the audience.

It seems like we have some good, lively interaction. If you have a question for either Sam or Mr.

Stacey, type the word question and then address who you want your question for and we will look to be addressing that at the end.

So now we're going to transition to our rebuttals. And so, Mr. Stacey, you have 10 minutes to rebut

Dr. Frost. The floor is yours. Again, when we're looking at Scripture, we have to let

Scripture answer Scripture and not tradition. The no more tears sounds great.

And I mean, I believed that my whole life until I started reading the Old Testament more.

That passage in Isaiah 25 says he takes away their disgrace because Israel was a disgrace in the

Old Covenant. That's what the tear taking away is related to.

The next verse talks about their salvation. That's their salvation, their resurrection at the end of the age.

Because your salvation occurs when it happens, not when it's promised. So that's when it's fulfilled, at their resurrection, the

Old Covenant dead. Talking about, Sam mentioned about Matthew and talking about all the earth in Matthew 13.

The apostles, a lot of times they made a statement, a lot of statements about the earth and the world, all of creation at their time here in the gospel, all of it, even though it was only in their area.

It's just the way they spoke. They always used hyper language to discuss what's going on.

This is everywhere. Even like the sun, moon, and stars comments in Matthew 24. It's not literal.

It's a kingdom change. They always use the constellations when they talk about the kingdoms and Israel.

And here, the same thing about the whole earth. If you go to Peter's first sermon, he says, all the nations under heaven is hearing the gospel right then.

Paul said, all of creation in Galatians 1 has heard the gospel. He's not meaning literally, he's talking about to his people, because to Israel, that's what it's about.

It's all about them and the kingdom coming that they will take to the world.

So again, we need to make the context fit the rest of scripture. And that's a very important thing is understanding their terminology use of heaven and earth, sun, moon, and stars.

You remember Joseph, he had that dream and he said the sun, moon, and stars bowed to him.

Well, Jacob immediately associated that with him, his wife, and his sons.

It's just the way they spoke and thought. They just use that terminology in that way. Because that language is in the

Old Testament when kingdoms destroyed other kingdoms. And it's the same way when

Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman army. That's what it's talking about is kingdom changes.

As the day of Lot, the day Lot went out of the city, the kingdom of Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed, just like Jerusalem.

When Jesus told them, you know, when you see the army surround Jerusalem, get out of the city. That's what they did.

He said, don't come down from the house. That's first century language. They ran from housetop to housetop because it went to the wall and they could jump over.

He said to flee the great tribulation, you just go to the mountains. It's a local judgment.

So all this stuff needs to add up. The reason I'm saying all these things is because I'm trying to kill some of this 10 minutes because Sam talked a lot about his feelings.

I get all this physical death and pain and stuff. And it is a big thing to make this change and accept

God's plan and the way he created it. But that's his plan. It's his.

But the beauty is he gives us eternal life. Again, the invisible is what's immortal.

I mean, we're basically saying that God is like a second rate person because we can't see him. You don't get to enjoy this physical world.

Undoubtedly, there's something better with the spiritual. And that's what Paul said. He said, your second body is better.

So we need to trust God that this next world that we will be part of is going to be better.

That's what faith is all about. We have to trust God and his plan. But that's pretty much, like I said, it's all about God's plan, generation to generation.

People are going to get saved forever. But it's about our destination, where he's at, heaven, where Jesus is.

There's more to it than we know. But that's what faith is about. Scripture is about what happens here on earth.

And it's going to last forever. People getting saved. I'll yield the rest of my time.

All righty. Thank you so much. We will now transition to Dr.

Frost. Let me unmute you. You and all your big books talking loud back there. All right.

It is your turn. People make so much about me. I'm a bookworm.

I like books. I can't even see the end of your collection that keeps going back and back.

The writing of many books, there's no end. All right. That is biblical.

Ecclesiastes or something, I believe. You now have 10 minutes for your rebuttal, and I will start the timer when you start talking.

Yeah, go ahead. So I like how there's two things that Stacey intimates, where he says that it sounds great that there would be justice in the earth and everything.

That sounds great, but it's not. That's not what's going to happen. And then he also said that it's a big thing to adopt your mind over to this kind of thinking where there'll be kiddie porn for infinity on earth.

And you just have to accept that's God's plan because he's okay with that. Whatever. If that's the character of your

God, I want nothing to do with that God. I'm done with the Bible, throw it in the trash.

And it's infinity anyway, and I'm going to be saved. So what the heck?

Eat, drink, and tomorrow we die, which is no big deal either because that's not really the death.

Oh, well, too bad. Now that's the attitude you have to take towards this stuff.

See, that's the minimalism that you have to take. You have to sweep this death and evil. You have to sweep all that because the really big show is dying.

However you die, whether it's cirrhosis or murder or death or somebody strangling you and then decapitating you and leaving your body out in the woods somewhere for the cops to find you, that's just the destiny of God.

But hey, you get to go to heaven. So that's why Jesus came and died. And that's going to go on forever.

That just doesn't gel with people. And I didn't quote any creed. So I don't know why he brought in traditions because I didn't allude to one of them.

Not one. Now you mentioned Isaiah 25, and you think that that refers just to Israel.

Actually, it doesn't. It says on the mountain, the almighty will prepare rich food for all peoples, all peoples.

A banquet of aged wine, the best meats of the finest of wines. On this mountain, he will destroy the shroud that unfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations.

Now you remember that in the covenant with Abraham, God's going to, through his seed, be a blessing to all nations.

And here again, he's talking about the same, all nations. And that's the same nations that came through Adam and Eve in Genesis chapter 10.

It says here, the sheet that covers over all nations, he will swallow up death forever.

That's Revelation 21, the end. The sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears from all faces.

He will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The Lord has spoken in that day, they will say, surely this is our

God we trusted in him and he saved us. And then he goes on and starts talking about not Israel, but Moab, who are not

Israelites, by the way. So this isn't limited to Israel in 70

AD. There's no way it's to all peoples and it's to all nations. That's what it says right here.

So I'm perfectly within my realm of understanding to suggest that here, he's going to destroy evil that covers over all the nations and he will swallow up death forever.

And that sounds just like Matthew 13, where he will remove all wickedness and sinners and all scandals that cause sin and evil.

He will remove from the kingdom, which is his world, which is what Jesus taught, which is what

Isaiah said, which is what Jesus is going to bring about when we get to Revelation 21, where Isaiah 25 is quoted.

As a matter of fact, Quall also quotes Isaiah 25 in 1 Corinthians 15, where he's talking about the end, when he will swallow up death forever, he will destroy death forever.

And then he quotes Isaiah 25 and 70 quotes this passage right here, this very passage, not to mention the fact that he states in 2

Corinthians 5, that everyone will stand before the judgment seat of Christ. And we'll, that's another thing.

And we'll judge each man according to their words.

Now you mentioned that the gospel, that you continue to preach the gospel. Okay, great.

In Romans chapter two, Paul tells us what an aspect of his gospel is.

And I want to read it. I mean, I can quote it, but I'd rather read it. In Romans chapter two, he states right here, very plainly, very clearly.

He says, because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart, you're storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath and his righteous judgment will be revealed.

God will give to each person according to what he has done, which is also quoted at the end of Revelation chapter 20.

They're raised from the dead and each person is given according to what they have done, according to what is in the books.

But Paul continues. He's continuing in this theme to those who by persistent and doing good, seek glory, honor, and immortality.

He will give eternal life, but those who are self -seeking and now, when is this on the day of God's wrath?

And then all who set apart from the law will perish apart from the law. And all who sit under the law will be judged by the law for it's not those who hear the law, but who are righteous in God's sight, but those who obey the law.

And then he continues on. And then he states, this will take place on the day. What day? The day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

So that we're in context there. Okay. So verse 16, this will take place on the day when

God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my what declares, as my gospel declares.

So if you're out preaching the gospel today, Stacey, are you preaching that?

The day in which all men will be judged, the secrets of their hearts will be judged in the day when each man is given according to what it is that he has done, which is directly tagged at the end of revelation chapter 20, after the thousand years, that verse is quoted again, which comes out of the old

Testament. Each man will be judged according to his deeds as my gospel declares.

See, there's no gospel unless you don't have a day of judgment over against the gospel being preached beforehand, because the function and purpose of the gospel is to prepare before the day of the

Lord and the day of judgment. That's the function of the gospel. In the new heavens and the new earth, there will be no gospel preaching.

We're not going to walk around with translations. We're not going to be discussing King James Version versus the

NIV. We're not going to have denominations like Baptists and Methodists and Episcopalians.

None of that's going to happen. We're not going to be preaching the gospel to the unsaved.

We're not going to have apologetics. You know why? Because we don't need it. We won't need it.

We will be perfected in the word of God and the word of God will be our heart. It'll be our soul. It'll be our mind.

It will be our will. We will be living it as one with the father, as Christ is one with the father, we also shall be one with the father.

That's Jesus' prayer in John Chapter 17. Man, I want that because I can tell you right now,

I'm not one with the father. I often war in my flesh and I have to discipline my flesh.

I have to discipline myself because my flesh sees, hears, smells, touches, and tastes.

It wants all kinds of things and I have to have the word of God say, no, no, no, no, don't do that. Go to a brother, go to a council, go to church, go to praise the

Lord, begin to fellowship. All these kinds of things that we take for granted, that Paul said each day we should do these things, being renewed in the

Holy Spirit. Why am I being renewed in the Holy Spirit? Because he's bringing me to a place for no longer

I will need to be renewed because I am new. I'm whole and I'm complete, but right now

I'm not. So that's why I can identify with evil and flesh and lust and all these other types of things and why

I can counsel people and why I can deal in this thing called the church because we're still preaching this message of the gospel, which says, repent, because there is a day coming in which you will be judged.

That's the gospel that Paul preached. So what I would like to know is what gospel message are you preaching when

Paul's message and Paul's gospel is rooted in eschatology, looking forward to the day of God's judgment, when each man will give an account for what he has done and you better believe it, they will.

Pol Pot will, Joseph Stalin will, Adolf Hitler will, all the murderers and scum that's out there will.

They will all have to answer directly to God for each and everything that they did and justice will be rectified.

I get excited thinking about it because it makes it, it's like it gives me perseverance through the

Holy Spirit that says, persevere through this. I know that you don't see it around you. You see evil and death and destruction are all around you, but take care.

I've overcome the world. See, even he died and even he suffered, but he was raised from the dead.

And I don't at present see all of these things subjected to my feet, but I do see Jesus. I do see

Jesus. Oh, I keep my eyes on Jesus because I shall be like him. See, that's what keeps, that's the faith, that's the perseverance.

But when you remove all of that, you don't have anything left. So I'm done.

Thank you so much for that. We are going to take a brief intermission. So you gentlemen, feel free to use the restroom, get something to drink.

And me and Trey Fisher, T Fish, we're going to chop it up for about five minutes while y 'all recharge.

Trey, are you unmuted? Are you going to unmute me now? Because I'm ready to go crazy. So I got to start off with saying, what about it?

What about it? What about it? That's gonna be fun when we start that up. But I'm just listening to this and it really breaks my heart.

Many things I want to say real quick before we look at some questions. The full preterist, it's like, yes,

I'm partial preterist. I would love to go through Matthew 24 and when the army surrounds

Jerusalem, go into Revelation, go into, yes, that's true. I do have a dip in.

I would love to look at Revelation 21 and 22 about the church and the outgrowth of the church and the river of life going through the throne for the healing of the nations.

And that's the growth of the church age. The full preterist takes it to the extreme.

What you're hearing, I'm trying to be unbiased. What's my job here?

Trey, you're biased, man. I'm trying to be unbiased. Here's my unbiased opinion. I like your opinion, though.

It's Gnosticism at its greatest. Only the spiritual matters. The material does not matter.

That's what he's saying. It's only spiritual. I just want to point this out.

When he says books, right? No books. No books. I just looked up something on one of these full preterist pages.

They're selling like 20 books. Now, why are you selling books if we don't need books?

You can't even hold your own standard, right? Paul, I wrote this down in Acts 17 -28, quotes an author, a poet, from another book.

People read books. I mean, it's just ridiculous that you can learn from books.

Now, Trey, you hold a post -millennial perspective. So how does that relate in the whole conversation of full preterism and to the timing of the resurrection of the dead and some of those things?

Well, it's because we believe that Christ is a—and everybody says this, right?

Here's what I tell people. I don't care what your end times view is. I really don't. At the end of the day, it's going to pan out, right?

Pan mill is the best—all pan out in the end. But I'm post -mill.

I believe that Jesus Christ is a conquering king, which everyone would say he's a conquering king. I get that.

Michael says you're biased, though. But here's what I say. And I just had this study the other day at our house with a group of people.

I don't care what it is, as long as you believe that Jesus Christ is going to come back in bodily form and raise the dead.

The dead are going to raise, and it's all over with, right? Once you get off that, you're in heresyville.

You're just in heresy land. You have—I mean, his explanation is basically

Christians today have no canon. We have no scripture today that applies to us, because all the

New Testament, that was just for those people right there up to 70 A .D. So really, this book means nothing.

Why are we even reading this? Why is he reading it? That has nothing to do with him, how to live in this world. We're in heaven. This is heaven.

Wow. Trey, would you mind if people in the chat room, if they ask you a question, on the upcoming intermission, since you've revealed that you're post -millennial, you actually think that the world's going to get better and better and better until Christ returns?

I think Jesus Christ is a conquering king, and through his church, that all the nations are going to be his, that Psalm 2 is going to be fulfilled, that he rules heaven and earth right now.

So we go to the nations. We make disciples of all nations, because right now, it's not the devil is gone for good and ever, but he is bound right now, chained, no longer able to deceive the nations.

So if you look in the Old Testament, it was just Israel, right? It was just Israel following God. We had an offshoot here or there from a

Gentile. But when Christ judged him on the cross and defeated him, crushed his head, and he's now bound, no longer able to deceive the nations anymore, what do you see?

You see people from all nations coming to Christ. And then in the end, he'll be released for a little bit.

He's going to try to do his thing. Christ is going to rule, reign, and it's over. Then Christ comes back.

I can keep going. I got to go fast. I need to set you up with a debate with Adam Carmichael on some of these things.

I don't want to do that to Adam. Adam has a few good questions here for the guy

I want to get to later at the end. He's got some good questions for the post mill too, perspective.

I got some good questions for whatever mill he is. Corn mill. I got some good questions for his corn mill.

Well, Troy, thanks for your thoughts so far. You bring a new and interesting dynamic to all of this.

Do you like my little friend I brought right here? What in the world? That's a fever blister.

That's not tobacco. Oh, well, interesting. We do not have our other interlocutor.

Stacey, what do you think so far, man? How are you feeling? Oh, man.

This debate's over already. Santa's just going off feeling. He can't debate. I'll pick it up where he left off.

Hey, I'll debate you, Trey. You're not listening. Oh, get him. You're not listening.

People are getting saved forever. That's my teaching. That's what the prayers teach.

It's not the end of the world. Here's my thing. Look, the early church father wasted their time fighting agnostics.

They were right the whole time. Heritage just means you're not the popular view.

What's more important is who's unbiblical. Yeah, the agnostics were right in your view. The agnostics were right.

Stacey, you're getting at it from every angle, man. I can bring it because I got the book.

I got the book that says it. Stacey, something I appreciate about you a whole lot is that you were willing to come on here.

Like we were saying earlier, we reached out to Michael Sullivan, and he wants nothing to do with debating

Dr. Frost. We did reach out to Don Preston, and he said that there's maybe a time coming in the near future where we can set this up.

Man, thank you so much for being a part of this for a good lively discussion. I'm going to mute

Trey. I got to contain the beast. I got to save you for the next intermission.

But we are now transitioning to everybody's favorite part of a debate.

We're going to get into some cross -examination. And so with this, Stacey, we want you to lead questions for about 20 minutes.

I trust that y 'all will be respectful. If someone's asking a question, let the whole question get asked, and then please give some appropriate time.

Now, I don't want someone to preach a whole sermon and pontificate forever into infinity.

Try to give succinct answers for about a minute or so. But for this first 20 minutes,

Stacey, you're going to lead questions. And after the 20 minutes, then Dr. Frost, he will lead the cross -examinations for 20 minutes.

How does that sound, y 'all? Yep. That's good. All right, Stacey. When you begin talking,

I will start the timer. All right,

Sam. I brought up the spiritual kingdom. It says perishable does not inherit imperishable.

How do you deal with that since the church teaches we're raised physically and we live in our bodies now that are perfected as we see each other living on the same planet, on the planet

Earth. What do you do with the invisible? Well, it doesn't say the invisible.

It says the imperishable. It says imperishable. So, Paul's concluding.

Yeah, perishable will not inherit imperishable, and the mortal will not with immortal.

So, I'm still mortal. I think I'm immortal. The perishable, which is what we are, will not inherit imperishable.

Exactly. What do you do with that? I haven't inherited it yet.

It says it won't happen. I haven't inherited it yet. I haven't entered in and inherited the kingdom of God yet.

It says it cannot inherit. It's not going to happen. No, as I am right now,

I cannot inherit the kingdom of God. I'm perishable. I'm mortal. Right.

I have to die. That's what the whole carrying the cross means. You have to die. In order to be raised immortal, you have to die.

Death is a requirement. It's a requisite. You have to have it. Without death, there is no resurrection. So, perishable will occur first, and then the imperishable.

Can't put on imperishable. Isn't that what we teach? What Paul is saying is that right now, if you bring yourself to the understanding, say, of those that are nationalists that think that they can build the kingdom of God here on Earth, that message right there in 1

Corinthians 15 is destroying that. The Jews are not going to rule from Jerusalem over the armies as things now are.

The perishable is not going to inherit the kingdom of God. That's not the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is righteousness and joy.

It is not bearing swords and fighting off the Romans, like in the second century BCE, when you had

Judas Maccabeus fighting against the Seleucid Empire. They gained a couple of victories here and there, but where did that get them?

Pompeii in 63 annihilated them again, and Rome took over. That's flesh.

And what Paul is saying is that the kingdom of God is not going to come into the flesh and rule outside from the flesh so that we have a constitution and some votes, and we elect officials like King David.

And then after David dies, Solomon rules. And then after Solomon, no, we have an eternal king. We have an eternal kingdom that we will inherit.

We will inherit all of these things. But as things stand right now, as we are flesh right now, this is not the vehicle or the agency through which we are going to inherit these things.

Because flesh is perishable. This has to die. That's his message of the cross.

That's why Paul says, I preach Christ and him crucified, because that is the means to victory.

That's how you get to victory, is through death. Whereas the other message was, no, through sword, through conquering, through rallying your president and getting him to make righteous and just laws, which all has its place.

It all has its place. Paul's not saying don't do that. Don't make these kinds of gestures towards your government or have righteous laws enacted if you can.

Fantastic. The more the merrier. But please realize that's not the kingdom of God. You're not building the kingdom of God.

God's kingdom is not something that requires us that we're going to be building. It's Christ that builds his church.

Jesus said, I will build my church. And right now, what we have is a perishable kingdom.

That means America is going to perish. China is going to perish. New York City is going to perish. It's all going to perish because it's flesh.

That's what it is. That's what Paul's saying there. Paul in 2

Corinthians 4 .18 says, for the things which are seen are temporal, the things which are not seen are eternal.

What do you do with that? Well, it's a true statement. The keyboard that I'm looking at in this coffee cup and even myself is

I'm temporal. I'm not going to be here forever. It's temporal. All of this is temporal. There's an end to all of this.

So the things that are unseen, which are there, for instance, there's angels.

Perhaps there's angels even right now around me. I don't know. I would assume that there would be. I don't see them, but they're there.

They're real. I don't see Jesus, but he's there. He's real. I don't see the saints in heaven, but they're there.

They're real. I don't see heaven, but it's there. It's real. So I walk according to the knowledge of these things that have been revealed by the spirit, that these things are real.

Isaiah really did see what he saw. Holy, holy, holy, and the glory of the Lord. In fact,

Jesus even said Isaiah saw my glory. So these things are very real. They are not perceived by sense of smell, touch, taste, and these kinds.

That's not how you perceive the kingdom of God. You have to perceive the kingdom of God through the opening of the eyes by the

Holy Spirit and come to the knowledge of the revelation of the truth that is revealed in the scriptures.

Once you have that, then I can believe what John saw. I can believe what Daniel saw.

Just because I didn't see these visions doesn't mean that I can't interact with them because Daniel saw it.

I believe Daniel and he wrote it down. So what he wrote down, I believe. That's the kingdom of God.

God is the ancient of days who sits over and right now as we speak over all the nations. He knows everything going on in Ukraine.

He knows everything about Putin. He knows everything about Biden. He knows everything about NATO. It reads

Psalm 2. He sits in the heavens and he laughs. The nations plot in vain. It will come to an end because I've installed my king.

His name is Jesus Messiah. And he sits at my right hand and rules the nations with a rod of iron until they're all subjected to his feet.

And death is the last enemy that he will get. But right now, he hasn't done that yet.

And the reason why he hasn't done that yet is because in the prophets, there was a tremendous call to the nations to bring nations in.

You have this Abrahamic covenant out here of a blessing to all the nations, the Hagoyim, the

Gentiles. And that's what we're in right now, which means I'm relevant to the story that my little insignificant world in Newcastle, Indiana, I'm significant to the larger meta -narrative that's taking place that the prophets said would happen.

And that's preaching the gospel under the ends of the earth, which is what I'm doing. I'm in the story.

The church is in the story. And that's exciting to me. That's like, oh, wow. I have purpose and meaning now.

Okay. It says the first man is from earth, the second artist. Yeah. The first is from earth, the second from heaven.

You have a natural body and then you'll become spiritual. What is spiritual mean to you if that's your second body?

The Greek term pneumatikos with the ending on it, whenever you add in Greek ekos, you can add it to several different words and you turn it into a word of origin.

So the word pneumatikos just means simply of the spirit. It's something of the spirits. You sing a spiritual song, that's a song that's erupted out of the spirit.

The spirit gives you this song and you sing it. So it's a spiritual song. It comes out of the spirit and that's what spiritual means.

It's not referring to the nature or the quality of the body. The term body does mean what it means.

It's body. It's of the spirit body. So if you have a body that's a corpse that's dead and all of a sudden it comes alive and the

Holy Spirit is the only power that can do that. And that body that is raised from the dead and made immortal is a body of the spirit, a spirit generated by the spirit himself.

It's a life giving spirit and the spirit gives life. Paul says in Romans 8, chapter 8, verse 10, that he will give life and quicken even your mortal body.

So even my mortal body, which is this will be quickened by the Holy Spirit. And at that point, the mortal body will be an immortal body, a quickened body or a body of the spirit, a spiritual body.

Okay. It says, Jesus said the kingdom comes without observation. What do you do with that?

They, they're asking the question there, when, when is the kingdom coming?

And in this, you get that hint where in Luke, when Jesus is coming into the city of Jerusalem and they're quoting

Psalm 118, which is a, which is a great exaltation Psalm of Messiah.

It's the coming in of the priest into the temple area. And because Jesus is the son of man, he's the son of God.

They're throwing these palm branches in front of him. There there's now keep in mind, this is the time of Passover.

So there's hundreds of thousands of Jews from all the, they're all there and they are singing.

It's like a rock concert. They are just, this is, you know, a powerful movement that's going on, quoting

Psalm 118. And they're asked, when is the kingdom going to come? When is it going to happen?

And Luke says, some thought immediately that Christ would bring in the kingdom at that moment.

That's the question. When is the kingdom? So they expected this, this big event to take place and that evil would be eradicated.

Israel would be exalted. Rome would be put down. And Jesus answers that and says, the kingdom of God comes, present active indicative, is coming now present as he's speaking.

The kingdom of God comes without observation because God operates without observation.

It doesn't mean that he's not operating. He certainly is. You just don't see him. But the kingdom of God is ruling.

It's doing what it does. The kingdom of God is among you. The kingdom of God is at hand.

The kingdom of God is within you. The kingdom of God operates by the Holy spirit. That's the kingdom of God, which is not food and drink, but righteousness and peace in the

Holy ghost. That's the kingdom of God. And Jesus is contrasting their expectation of this immediate imminent kingdom of which

Jesus was the Messiah and Jesus is the son of God and was going to make all things right then and there.

Jesus is saying he's not come to do that. And just a week later, the same crowd crying for him, blessed as he comes in the name of the

Lord is now crying, crucify him because he's a blasphemer. He's not the son of man.

He's not the son of God that we thought that he was because if he was, where's the kingdom? Kill this man.

He's a blasphemer. That's why they wanted him dead, which I can't blame him because according to the law of Moses, blasphemers get put to death.

So you had the question, your faith there at this point, was this Messiah fellow, Jesus, a blasphemer or was he a, is he the son of man that Daniel talks about?

You can see there were the real gripping, you know, how did the apostles know?

I mean, they're taking it. They're taking their lives into their own hands by following this Jesus character. Who's not making the kingdom appear instead he's dying on a cross.

What kind of Messiah dies on a cross? It's like the exact opposite. Messiah is dying.

He's dead. I want to chime in just real quick. Stacey, are you okay with the length of time that he's answering your questions?

I know we've got about seven minutes left. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm just going to, yeah,

I mean, it's fine. Okay. Just double checking how y 'all are doing great. All right. So the new covenant promise in the

Old Testament says from generation to generation, offspring to offspring. What do you do with that?

Well, I would, I would also, I wouldn't quote just that verse. I would quote in Isaiah where he says,

I am the Lord from beginning to end. I am with the first generation and I shall be with the last. So that tells me there's a first generation.

We know them in Genesis and that there's going to be a last generation and God knows who they are too.

So there's a first generation and that will go to a last generation. Like there's several other references to that kind of thing.

Right now we're in generations to generations. I don't know how many generations there's going to be, but according to Isaiah, there's a first generation.

We know of them and there's going to be a last generation. So that's the generation left that we, we alive who are alive at his coming.

We who are living here on earth during his, when he appears, we will be changed.

The dead will be raided first and then we will be changed. That's the last generation. I don't know who they are. I don't know.

There's no telling when or if you're part of the terminal generation. That's all silly to me.

That's speculation. So the new covenant passage, the new heaven and new earth passages of the

Old Testament has offspring. It has cursing, hasn't lived to a hundred years, days of truth.

Where are you getting this world where people, there's no more sin and death and nobody dies.

How do you get that out of those passages? Well, I get it through understanding all of the

Bible and not just quoting to one verse and then taking one verse and then saying, and then using that for every other verse, you have to take in all of it into consideration.

In fact, Isaiah, the same Isaiah in Isaiah 25 says death will be swallowed up in victory. The death in the

Hebrew, hamut will be swallowed up in victory. So whatever Isaiah 65 is doing,

I also have to understand that the death will be swallowed up in victory and will be no more according to John in Revelation 21.

So I have to read all of these passages before I make a decision rather than just pinpointing it on one and saying,

Hey, it says death here is still going to be present. But what I find interesting there, if you don't mind, is that in new heavens and new earth, it seems like death all of a sudden is no longer spiritual death, but it's actual physical death.

I mean, literally, right? So you are taking that literally in Isaiah 65, right?

Okay. Now, are you taking about an infant that lives but a few days or an old man who does not live out his years, who dies at a hundred?

Do you take that literal? Well, it's spiritual application because you're getting saved.

You're an infant in Christ, but you're an adult. But the death is literal. No, I'm making the point that in new heaven and new earth, you have death according to the old

Testament. Yeah, literally. You take it, it doesn't matter literally or spiritually, however you want to spin it.

There's no death in your new heaven and new earth. There's no death. Here in scripture, you have a death.

You have people living to a certain age, and then you have people not living to a certain age.

There's death for everybody if you take it physically, but if you want to talk, but there's spiritual language involved, which is talking about no infants.

It has spiritual application, but the kingdom is within the human realm on earth.

Heaven is the finality of it when you get eternal life, but you have the spirit here and you, again, offspring, you're going to have people getting saved generation to generation.

That's the offspring, people getting saved. But anyway, so Jesus said that all the time indicated, he looked at the

Pharisees on your generation, all the blood of the prophets will be all. He tells the apostles before you preached all

Israel, the son of man will come. What do you do with all the passages of Christ in Matthew? Some standing here will not taste death is referring to the ascension of Christ, which is

Daniel 7 .13, which I'm deliberately avoiding quoting any commentaries or scholars.

I'm a great wealth of scholarship that's out there that understands Matthew, the Methaian gospel, what

Matthew is doing from beginning to end is operating under Psalm 110, Psalm 2, Psalm 16, and Daniel 7 .13

-14. He's operating within these larger texts.

For him, he's showing that Jesus is the son of man that's fulfilling Psalm 110, Psalm 2, Psalm 16, and Daniel 7 .13

-14, the son of man passages. He's actually doing that. Matthew is a very interesting gospel, a very

Jewish gospel that's showing that Jesus is the son of man of Daniel 7 .13 -14. When I go to Daniel 7 .13

-14, I see the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew, which the New Testament writers did have access to that.

They would have read that. They would have understood that the word Erkomai, the son of man coming on the cloud,

Erkomai, that's the word used in the Septuagint. That's the word Jesus uses, Erkomai, the son of man will come.

Will come where? Well, in Daniel 7 .13, the son of man is coming to the Father to receive all power, glory, honor, and might.

The nations will be given to him. When did that happen? When he ascended? When Jesus ascended, that's when he came.

So he ascended with his angels and he repaid every man of their deeds.

No, that's his return. Matthew 16 has to be twisted because it destroys any futurist teaching.

You have to ignore what the whole passage says. It says he comes with his angels and repays every person according to his deeds.

This is the return. This is not the ascension. Well, it says here in Daniel that the angels presented him before the

Ancient of Days. Where's the judgment? It says that he repays every man according to his deeds.

No, in Daniel 7 .13, when he comes on the clouds of heaven to the

Ancient of Days who's in heaven, he's coming with the angels. It's the angels that are presenting him before the

Father or before the Ancient of Days. So the angels are with him surrounding the Ancient of Days.

We see this in Revelation 5. That's the ascension of the Lamb of God. That's the ascension of the right hand where he takes the right hand of authority from the one who sits on the throne.

It's the same scene. Yeah, he's gaining authority, but he's not coming in judgment, which is what this passage is saying.

Daniel says he's coming to the Erchomai. He's coming to the Ancient of Days. That's a coming of the Lord. The only coming

I'm expecting. That's the coming there. We're in the whole passage. What about TN?

It says he will come before they preach to all the cities of Israel. The Son of Man will come.

Well, you're out of. I don't know why you want to do that. If you want,

I can give you a couple sentences to respond to that, Dr. Frost, if you want to. Yeah. Matthew 10 .23

is a passage that hypercritical scholars use. That's become one of the main passages, actually, to talk about the imminent coming of the

Lord. What the scholars mean by the imminent coming of the Lord is that Jesus expected the kingdom of God to arrive through his preaching during the time that he was on earth preaching.

In other words, that's what imminence means. Imminent means at any moment. That's what the word means.

Not 37 years away from Jesus' preaching. So when Jesus is preaching to them and he says, the

Son of Man will come before you finish going through the cities of Israel, that's imminent.

That's not 37 years away. That's not imminent.

If I tell my wife I'm taking out the trash, it's imminent in 37 years. I feel like there's two lions going at it.

I'm trying to step in. I'm like, oh, that hurts. Hey, y 'all are doing a fantastic job.

I meant to play this right before we started the cross -examination. Y 'all are not disappointing.

Y 'all have a lot of interesting points from both ways. And so I hope the audience is appreciating this very lively discussion.

So now we're going to switch it over to you, Dr. Frost. You now have 20 minutes to lead with the questions with Mr.

Stacey. So when you begin, I'll start the timer. Yeah, go ahead. So just to follow up on Matthew 10 -23, are you telling me it took them 37 years to go through the cities of Israel?

I can go through it in two days in my bicycle. Well, I'm just telling you, he said he will come before they do that.

Yeah. Yeah. So listen to what you're saying. If he came before they finished going through the cities of Israel, then that means that at 70

AD, which is in your view, the coming of the Lord, they still haven't gone through all the cities of Israel.

I'm just saying that he returns before they do that. Look at all the time indicators.

They didn't go through all the cities of Israel. That's the point of all these time indicators.

It's about their lifetime. So they didn't go through all of the cities of Israel.

Even up to 70 AD, they still had not yet gone through all the cities of Israel.

Yeah, I would say definitely not because they were ran out. So let me ask you this. But they did go through and preach the gospel to every nation and creature under heaven, except for the cities of Israel.

Again, that's Hebraic language. That was the first sermon. Did every preacher hear the gospel on the first sermon?

It's hyper -language. It's not literal. Every nation under heaven, it says.

We know that's not literal. Did somebody in China hear the gospel?

No. You got to use context in how they took words. Well, I believe that the people in China saw the glory of God because the heavens revealed to the glory of God, which is kind of Paul's point in what he's saying there is that the gospel has been revealed in all of the heavens.

The heavens, the stars, the moon, the sun proclaims the gospels and the glories of God. That's Jewish language.

Each sunrise is proclaiming the heavenly glory of God. All men are without excuse. There's no excuse for atheism.

There's no excuse for any of it because the stars proclaim the glory and the grace of God. That's Jewish.

That's typically Jewish. And so yes, the Chinese at the time of Paul did understand the glory and the grace of God.

They rejected it, but they did understand the glory and the grace of God because God is not far from each one of us. He's very near.

The kingdom of God is near. That's again, Jewish. If you go to Jewish literature, that's how they talk.

The kingdom of God is near, meaning God is near your heart. He's not far away from you. He's near. He's very close.

In fact, he's on your lips. He's in your heart. That's Deuteronomy 31. Paul quotes that.

The point of Pentecost is the gospel message and the spirit going out, not some kind of looking at the sky saying, oh,

I believe in God. We got to keep it in context. Okay. Well, again, I am keeping it in context because all creation and all humanity and all human beings matter to God.

Now, I want to ask you something. How do you know that the Chinese today mean anything to God?

Why would he even care about them? Well, I'm just, well, if they hear the gospel and become part of it.

What if they don't? All nations. What if they don't?

Who knows who gets saved? That's not the point. The point is it's available. So that's going to get off into another conversation.

Well, yeah. Revelation 22, after your supposed new planets here, people are getting saved, coming into the city, the nations.

Well, only those that hear it. Oh, I agree. For those that don't hear it, they just don't have a chance of a snowball in hell.

I agree. Just like the Moabites did not. Okay. Well, if you're happy with that position, that's okay.

Yeah. The Moabites didn't live by faith. Their shame was not changed when the resurrection occurred.

That was my point on that passage in Isaiah. It's all about the gospels available. Okay. So when

I mentioned in Romans chapter two, where Paul states explicitly that, as my gospel declares on the day when men's secrets will be judged in the day of wrath, when each man will be given according to their deeds, as my gospel declares, is that the gospel that you preach today?

Well, Romans two, first off is an entire letter. He's talking about how man has no excuse.

These people are living in sin. And then he goes on to explain the spiritual kingdom.

As you get to chapter eight, he's going through, this is a letter to a people about the new covenant kingdom.

You have to read the entire letter. He's going through telling you what salvation is and what the spiritual kingdom is.

Chapter two, of course, the world proclaims God, but the point is the gospel.

That's what we're talking about. The new covenant, his spirit coming on man, the point of Pentecost, not whether the

Chinese looked up and saw the sky. Of course, everybody's accountable. I agree with that.

Well, my question is, it says this will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

So Paul's gospel declares that there's going to be a day when

God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ. And you say that that day was 70 AD.

So I want to know what gospel today are you proclaiming? Again, these people we're talking to, that's before 70

AD. These people are going to be judged during the old covenant resurrection if they have died.

That's the point. If you've died in the old covenant age, you're judged by, what does it say?

The books are open and the book of life. And they were judged out of those. The Romans are, those people are living in that time period.

When you get to revelation 21 and 22, it's after the old covenant are finally raised when the heat, when the temple's destroyed.

Hebrews 9, 8, that's when heaven opened. Until then, only Jesus is in heaven.

Now, so in the gospel that you proclaim today in the new heavens and the new earth gospel, the gospel that you preach because you're inside the city, the gospel that you preach to those outside the city,

I guess you would have to go outside of the city to preach to them. I don't know why you would ever want to leave that city, but whatever.

We'll let the analogy slide for a minute. So you'd have to go outside the gates to preach to those outside.

So do you preach to them Paul's gospel that God is going to, there's going to be a day when

God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ as my gospel declares. Is that what you say to those people today?

The city is the spirit of God. God came down among the saints.

Um, we are the ones proclaiming the light that city's open. Um, we, we give out the water, um, that's flowing the tree.

That's Jesus. The leaves that they taste for healing is, is the gospel message.

It's all symbolic language to new covenant kingdom. Again, you don't need healing.

If sin and death has been taken care of, this is all new covenant language. People are getting saved.

This that's, that's the whole point of those two chapters. Not a perfect utopian planet. There wouldn't be people outside the city that are sinners.

That makes no sense. Well, there's a, there's an explanation. There's a scholarly explanation.

The outside is the outer courts, which is the earth, the inside, which is the Holy of Holies is up.

So it's the temple is up looking down at the outer courts. So there's a whole temple theology that's going on there, uh, which stems all the way back from Genesis goes all the way through Leviticus and the tabernacle theology, temple theology,

Solomon's temple theology that goes and plays right into John. Who's in heaven. And John is in heaven in the

Holy place and most Holy place where the throne is. And in that he's looking through the sea of glass down to the four quarters of the outer court.

In fact, in revelation 11, he calls it the outer court, which is the word used for outer court in Leviticus and the

Septuagint. It's very clear what's going on here that heaven is up here. He's looking down at the four quarters of the earth because no sacrifice was ever slaughtered inside the temple.

Sacrifices were always slaughtered before you got to the temple, just before the gate of the temple, everything happens on earth.

Then you enter heaven. That's the Holy place. We are the temple. Revelation is 21.

We are the temple. That's the point. Okay. So when you got this, this is a question

I asked on, if that has all come down and we're in the spirit and we're the bride and we're the temple and everything else, then when you die, where do you go?

Aren't you already there? You're transferred in your spiritual body to heaven.

Doesn't say heaven is open now. So that's the whole point of the rapture.

This whole resurrection is to get the old people saved and given their new body.

That's the point. Aren't you already there? Once you die from then on, you go to heaven immediately because heaven is open.

That's the point. The point of the rapture, the resurrection is to get those old covenant people to heaven.

That's why it said, Daniel, go lay with your fathers until the end of the age. When the power of the holy people are shattered is when the resurrection occurred.

Verse seven confirms one through three on Daniel 12. And that's what happens in revelations, verse chapter 20.

You have that resurrection before you have the new heaven and new earth, where the gospel goes out by the saints after the judgment, which is

Daniel seven. But aren't you already? Aren't you already there? Yeah.

Okay. So when you die, where do you go? Your spirit, but you go to heaven.

Heaven. But aren't you already there? No, you're in earth.

You're in the first part at his kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. That was the prayer.

And that was fulfilled when God's spirit came. Again, the end game of the

Old Testament is God's spirit, the new covenant age. Isaiah 60 is the saints teaching.

There's a disconnect. You're saying that that has all come down and that you're the temple of God and that all of these things have come down out of heaven, the new

Jerusalem, everything has come down. Heaven is on earth, but you still have to die in order to get in.

But you're already in. Jesus said, you have to die to get in if you're already in.

Jesus said, believe in me and you'll never die. Are we still dying? Of course. You've said it repeatedly tonight that you're going to die and get your new spiritual body when you're raised from the dead and enter heaven.

I'm just wanting to know why aren't you already in heaven right now since you're already in the kingdom of God right now?

That's not the plan. The plan of God is from generation to generation, salvation.

That's the plan of God. I can't change the plan. I'm just trying to understand the plan.

It's a plan that says that I'm in the kingdom. I'm in the new Jerusalem. I've been raised from the dead.

There is no more last day. The resurrection of the dead has taken place. I've been regenerated, made perfect.

I'm in the new heavens and new earth. I'm in the new covenant, but I got to die and suffer in this earth before I can experience all the things that I already have.

So it sounds like the death is still preventing me and limiting me.

It sounds like my flesh is actually limiting me from the things that I already have that have come down from heaven that have been given to me.

Why can't I manifest those things? Then why do I have to suffer and die and grow old and wear glasses?

I mean, why can't I live in that right now since I already have? In other words, what you're saying is that Jesus has given you everything.

You just have to suffer and die before you get it. Didn't he say, take up your cross and follow me?

Yeah, he said that to the Jews under the old covenant. We're talking about new covenant fulfillment. You already said everything's fulfilled.

Jesus was talking to them, not you. He didn't tell you to pick up your cross. What does it say?

My spirit is on man and I write my laws on his heart. So you are taking the gospel to the world.

Why does he have to write his laws on your heart? If you're in a perfect planet, there's no more sin. None of that makes sense.

Why is the saints taking the gospel to the nations? None of that makes sense on a planet where there's no reason for the gospel.

You just actually answered the very question as to why I returned to the church and the teachings of the church and the unity of the church and why

I left full preterism, hyper -preterism and returned to the church. It's because what you just said is the very reason that I gave as to why we're still preaching in a sin -filled, evil -filled earth until God removes it.

But you say that God has already removed it. You say that it's done away with.

The law is fulfilled. Well, without the law, there is no sin. Where there is no law, there is no transgression, for the law bringeth wrath.

There's no more wrath because there's no more law. I asked Don Preston this question and he couldn't answer it.

Don, is the law fulfilled? Yes. Without law, there is no wrath.

Is there still the wrath of God today? Don's answer was no, there is no wrath of God today.

I'm like, now you can believe that all that you want, but please don't tell us

Christians for 1900 years that we've got it wrong because that's confusing. It makes no sense.

Salvation is not that you have these sins on you to get to heaven.

You have to believe in Christ. Unless you believe, you don't receive the new body.

That's what scripture teaches. What do you do with the resurrection of the just and the unjust?

When are the unjust raised from the dead and embodied? Again, that was the first resurrection.

The whole point is to get the old covenant people to heaven because they were sleeping.

Read 1 Corinthians 15. They were awaiting their resurrection, which happened again.

Context is when those power of the holy people are shattered is when the judgment occurred and resurrection at the end of the age.

That's what the Old Testament taught. That's what the revelation teaches. These things were about to take place.

The time is at hand. Revelation 20 occurred before the first century was over.

It occurred when the temples destroyed. When Jesus said after the great tribulation, he immediately came.

Then you have the resurrection in this generation, he said. 21 and 22 is when the spirit of God came down in the new heaven and new earth.

In the Old Testament, it's the kingdom of God. It's the spirit. I can't ask questions, but anyway, it's when the spirit came down.

I have to ask a pepper with a series of questions, but let me quote you here.

When you say you die, let me quote you. You say you will be resurrected. Jesus says that all whom the father has given to me,

I will raise up in the last day. So have you been given to the father?

Well, who's he talking to? Well, let me repeat it then.

All who believe in me, I will raise up in the last day.

He's not talking to us and John. I mean, he's talking to his first century peers.

But he is talking to you to carry your cross. See, this is where it gets arbitrary.

It's like whenever you want him talking to the Jews in the first century, because that fits the 70 AD thing, that's when you're going to go there.

But when you want to play evangelical church, because you still want to be somewhat relevant today, then you're going to say, oh no, we believe that we got to take up our cross today and die.

And like, no, it's all or nothing. Either everything is fulfilled. Every prophecy, every promise is fulfilled in 70

AD. All prophecy is fulfilled in 70 AD or it's not. And if it's not, you've just let open an escape valve.

And that's a weakness there. And I attack that weakness.

My Bible says that the gospels from generation to generation forever,

Ephesians 3, 21, fulfilling Isaiah 59, 21.

How's there not any gospel? If it's, what? I'm not the one saying that there isn't a gospel.

There is a gospel. The gospel that I'm proclaiming is the gospel that is being preached under generation, under generation, under the final generation, whenever that is, no man knows the day or the hour.

But the gospel that I preached is that the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

I'm preaching Paul's gospel, the very gospel that says that the day when

God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, on the day when God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed,

God will give to each person according to what he has done in the day when God judges men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

I preached that gospel. You, on the other hand, can't. The wrath he's talking about is the judgment on the

Pharisees generation that he was talking to. Right. So you can't preach that gospel then?

It says to him, talking about the father, be the glory in the church and in Christ for all generations forever and ever.

That's the new kingdom, the church forever. That's the scriptures. Stopping it somewhere in time is not biblical.

Okay. Hey, I like that. I need one of those air fan things.

I can't hear you.

You're muted. You're muted. Can you hear me now? Yeah. That's funny.

When I watch Marlon's channel of the gospel truth, I'm like, well, how does Marlon forget to unmute himself? I understand now.

Did y 'all like that horn that I gave? Yeah, yeah. That little, hey, y 'all did a fantastic job.

Y 'all had a zealousness back and forth. And yet, I think y 'all are very respectful towards one another. And so I will go back and probably re -watch that without the side chat distracting me, which we have a very lively chat going on with a lot of questions for y 'all coming up.

So thank y 'all again for that cross -examination. We are going to transition to our intermission time.

So if you want to recharge, get something to drink, this is definitely the time to do it. And when you come back, we will do closing statements.

So now I have to unmute the fishbone. Get ready.

What about it? What about it? What about it? Oh man, there's so much. You go, because I'll just, if I start,

I might take up the whole five. That's okay. I just want to let people know we have some announcements coming up, maybe that have tuned in that didn't hear us at the beginning.

Trey and I are going to be a part of ReformCon in just a couple of weeks. We're going to Arizona. We're going to Apologia, and we're going to get to talk with Jeff Durbin.

We're going to get to talk to Jerry on cultish, and we will actually be talking about the Church of Christ and full of preterism.

Yeah. So let me get some of your thoughts.

I actually saw some people have questions for you, Trey. I don't know if you made note of any of them.

Yeah. Yeah. Let me throw one on here. I had one for Bible research tools.

If I could answer that one, I saw that one. Was this it? Can you see it on the screen? Yes. That's a good one you picked out.

So great. So I want to help Bible research tools out with this. You see the question right there. Let's do some

Bible research together. So go to John 20, 25 to 29.

This is where Jesus raises from the dead bodily, bodily. And Thomas, we all know the story.

Thomas says, unless I see in his hands, the mark of the nails and place my finger into the mark of the nails and place my hand into his side,

I will never believe. He's not sticking hands and ghosts. He's sticking hands and hands.

He's sticking hands and sides. He's sticking hands where nails were. That's physical. That is not ghost.

This is not Casper. This is Jesus risen from the dead. And then all of a sudden Jesus says, Hey, he shows up.

Peace be with you. Then he said to Thomas, he said to Thomas, put your finger here and see my hands and put out your hand and place it in my side.

Do not disbelieve, but believe Thomas answered my Lord and my God. This is what John wants everybody to say.

Once they read this gospel, my Lord, my God, that Jesus is God. Jesus said to him, have you believed because you have seen blessed for those who believe and not seen.

So he's seeing a physical body. He's touching a physical body. This is what John, when he goes into his pistol, first,

John says, we touched him. We saw him. We, we heard him all these physical attributes. So he's physically raised physically bodily.

Now we go to acts chapter one. I think this is a hard one for the preterist, the full preterist, by the way.

It's a hard one for the full preterist to see when Jesus comes back. We're going to start in Acts one verse nine.

And when he had said these things, Jesus said these things to the apostles and they were looking on. He was lifted up in a cloud, took him out of their sight.

And while they were gazing into the heaven, as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes and said, men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven?

This Jesus who was taking up from you into heaven will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven in bodily form.

He was in a bodily form. Thomas touched him, touched his hands, touched his side, touched the nails, the slashes, the beatings, touched him physically.

And they watched him raise up into the sky, not float away. They watched him and he says, he's going to come down the same way as you saw him go is how he's coming back.

Not on a white horse. That was the Roman, I will say this, that was the Roman army's coming on Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple in 70

AD. But when he comes back for the second time in bodily form, he's going to go back. He's coming back in a body because that's how he went up in a body.

You're going to see him come where he went. So I didn't know if you wanted to comment on this as well.

Bible research tools. We're going to do some more research. We just did Bible research. We just did that one.

Hey, I guess he's a fan. He made this comment. He said, Trey, I believe the nations will not be healed until Satan is destroyed.

Did you have any thoughts with that? I believe that the nations predominantly will be healed. It's just like when

Paul says to Rome, all the nations have heard of your faith. Well, I don't think

China heard of their faith. I think he's talking about just broad, like big, big words.

Kind of like what Stacey's saying, but this is where heresies always come from. They come from within the church. Heresies come from within the church and they start twisting scriptures like Satan did.

He went into the garden, the temple of God, and he twisted scriptures. Did God really say? Did he really say?

And you get to question these things. And so when I say, hey man, everybody was at the football game Saturday night. Well, I don't mean every individual in the world.

I just mean there was a ton of people there. So when he's going to, the nations are coming to him, that's the prophecy that is, the

Jews are looking for the Messiah to inherit all the nations, right? The ends of the earth will be his possession.

We're not saying that every individual in the world will be saved, but we are saying by the masses, there will be more people converted to Christianity.

The nations will come under the law of God, the law word of God, and Satan will be defeated ultimately in the end when

Christ comes back in bodily form. Zero seconds. Good job. Right in the nick of time.

Let us unmute our guest slash. Go ahead and mute me. I know it's coming.

Yep. You'll get one more chance at the very end. Fishbone. All right.

Tell me, Stacy, how are you feeling, man? Good. Feeling good.

This came out for a hour shift. Oh, nice. You got energy reserves.

I need to get some of that, Dr. Frost. Yeah. Get excited.

Stacy, once again, I just want to thank you for being here. Stacy, I plan on trying to get you back on again for a future debate, so I just want to encourage people that follow you that I really appreciate you coming on The Apologetic Dog.

Now, I want to begin to transition to our closing statements.

Stacy, any final words you want to say? You got five minutes, man. All right.

Yeah, I appreciate Sam coming on because it's getting harder and harder to get people to debate me. I really appreciate him doing this.

It's been a great talk. Here's what I'm going to say.

Scripture tells you what the new covenant is, and it's God's spirit among man, and those saints take the gospel to the world.

You need to just simply read your Old Testament. The church is illiterate to the Old Testament. The Old Testament is the word of God.

The New Testament is the fulfillment. We got to get this understanding.

When you read everything, Micah 4, Isaiah 2, Isaiah 60, it all is spoken of in the

New Testament as the new covenant kingdom when the spirit came, and it was in us, and we took the gospel to the world.

That's what Revelation 21 and 22 is about. It's not about some literal new heaven and new earth.

That's how the Israelites spoke. That's not how they thought. They were always applying it to them as a people, not the planet.

Like I said, you can reject that over and over in the Old Testament. Look at the details.

After this supposed new heaven and new earth came, you got the spirit of God on them. They are the temple, and the nations are coming to them for healing, for tasting of the tree, the waters flowing.

This is the gospel. This is all symbolism to Jesus and salvation. That's what this whole thing is speaking about, and it was going to happen in their generation.

What Jesus said came true to his people. Those that pierced him saw him come on the clouds.

Coming on the clouds is judgment language from the Old Testament. It doesn't mean a little man is going to ride a cloud.

You can believe that all you want, but we've been so brainwashed, but that's not what

Scripture is talking about. It's talking about judgment on those people. Jesus wasn't coming back physically.

That's why he said, look for the sign. The apostles knew it. They said, look for the sign of his coming.

The kingdom comes without observation. You'll never see not one day a son of man again,

Luke 17, 22. He's on the throne in heaven. God gives the gospel to the saints.

Read Daniel 7, after the judgment. This is what Daniel 12 teaches.

When does all this happen? When the power of the holy people are shattered, when their temple and city are destroyed.

Everything flows with this new covenant language because that again is the end game of the Old Testament. There's nothing about this new planet earth where the physical gets to be immortal.

Paul destroys that. He clearly says the imperishable does not become, the perishable does not become imperishable.

You're not going to see, the kingdom is in heaven. It's a spiritual kingdom.

That's what the Scripture teaches. I know it's hard to believe because we love our fleshly bodies and we want to be in this new body that we can be.

We get our body back. It sounds all good, but it's not of what the Scriptures are teaching. We have to teach what

God says. The teaching of generation to generation is very important because it's going to be forever.

This kingdom, as people get saved, we got to not be selfish. Everybody thinks it's going to happen on their generation.

No, it's going to happen forever. God's going to have salvation for many people.

Where's our destination? Heaven. Jesus said, prepare a place and there you'll be also.

That's the destination. Heaven. Heaven opened when the temple was destroyed,

Hebrews 9a. There's nothing in the Scriptures, all 100 plus time indicators are first century.

None of them are distant future because the whole point of the Bible is to get

God's Spirit on man so that he can worship and fellowship with God and spread that to the nations and to the world.

So that's the teaching of the Scriptures. Everything just fits.

None of this stuff we're taught is in Scripture and that's why all these verses are ignored.

You'll never hear anybody teach on Isaiah 65, 66. So many passages.

They'll throw something out on Matthew 16 and say, oh, that was the transfiguration or something. No, the angel's coming.

We need to listen and accept what the Scriptures say. Preterism is true because it's

God's Word. Yes, sir. Thanks so much for that,

Stacey. And now I will throw it over to you, Dr. Frost. You are now unmuted.

Unleash. In John chapter six, Jesus states, no one can come to me unless the

Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up.

That's the one that comes to Jesus. I will raise him up in the last day. It is written in the prophets.

They will all be taught by the Lord. They will all be taught by the

Lord, by Hosein. And that's Isaiah 54. And I do read my Hebrew. I do read my

Old Testament. I hang out more in the Old Testament more than I do in the New Testament. The language in Isaiah 54 is

New Covenant. That whole passage of Isaiah 54, 55, 56, that's all

New Covenant. That's he's in the New Covenant talking about those who were taught of the Lord by the Spirit of the

Lord. And those are the ones that are being drawn. So we're in the New Covenant. Jesus is using

New Covenant language that you say that is post 70 AD. OK, great.

Let me read it again. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up at the last day.

It is written in the prophets. They will all be taught by God, quoting

Isaiah 54, 13. This is the all the New Covenant all who come to Jesus and who

Jesus says I will raise him up in the last day, which means that the

New Covenant promises that are on that are in operation, being taught of the

Lord, the Holy Spirit teaching us of the Lord. Those are the ones being drawn and coming to Jesus and those being drawn and coming to Jesus are the ones that Jesus says and I will raise them up in the last day, which means the last day comes after the teaching and outpouring of the

Holy Spirit. Which means that I'm being taught, as you say, in the

New Covenant, being drawn to the Lord Jesus Christ and the promise because I am being drawn and I am coming to the

Lord Jesus Christ because I'm being given to Jesus Christ by the Father, all who are taught of the

Lord. And I believe a Christian is taught of the Lord by the Holy Spirit. The promises is that I will be raised up in the last day.

It also says in John chapter 12 that the unjust in the last day of judgment.

So the unjust will be raised in the last day under condemnation in John chapter 12 using the same phrase.

So here we have a passage that's teaching New Covenant principles, the outpouring of the

Holy Spirit, being taught of the Lord, drawn to the Lord and Jesus saying those who are taught and drawn to me,

I will raise them up in the last day. So that means that I'm going to be raised up because I am being drawn to Jesus, being taught of the

Lord by the Holy Spirit. I am going to be raised up in the last day.

And that just goes hand in hand with the entirety of what the church has always taught, because the

Holy Spirit has indwelled the very body of Christ and the very church that God came to save.

And the message in unity from all four quarters of the earth, from all nations, languages, tribes, from people who do not know each other, people who read the

Bible in Coptic, they read the Bible in Arabic, they read the Bible in Hebrew, they read it in Greek, they read it in Chinese, they read it in Aramaic, that doesn't make any difference.

And they all, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Methodist, Baptist, Church of Christ, they all say in unison that we will be raised in the last day.

And yet we're being asked to reject that entire message of 1900, that unity.

And please, in this world of sharp, horrible division that results in bombing each other,

I look for unity because we're not real big people about unity and everything.

So when you find unity from all four quarters of the earth for 1900 years sustained, that's an act of God.

That's an act of the Holy Spirit. It's right in front of your face because that's the only thing that explains the unity of the

Spirit, the unity of the church. And the church, the believers that are given to God through Jesus Christ, will be raised in the last day according to the

Lord Jesus Christ, who sits at the right hand of the Father as we speak. Thank you so much for those closing remarks from both of you.

Are y 'all ready for some audience questions? Stacey, we've had some good ones for you.

We've had some good ones for Dr. Frost as well. We might even see if Trey wants to chime in on some of these.

Yeah, we can let Trey in. Yeah, let's unmute him. I haven't seen anything in the chat, so I don't have any.

I think I've talked quite a bit. I want to get some of these questions for y 'all. I mean, if you have more questions for me,

I like it. But I have some questions here. Bible research tool, we've already done research with him.

I've got one question for Trey. I've got one question. Ask him. Why isn't your beard as long as Jeremiah's?

Come on. Hey, listen, Dr. Frost, why don't you have a beard?

I just want to know the last thing you did. Stacey and I don't have one.

No, he's got a goatee. I take that back. I'm the only shaved guy here. Yeah. Okay.

And that's not scriptural, by the way. Okay. I got a question.

Go ahead. Go for it. For Sam. Oh. You said that Jesus' resurrection is the rule, not the exception.

Yeah. Though, doesn't Paul say we have been crucified with Christ too?

Why is one literal and not the other? That's from Bible theory. Before you answer,

Dr. Frost, I'm going to give you two minutes to respond, and then I'm going to let Mr. Stacey have up to a minute to share his thoughts.

So, do you need to hear the question again? No. This is going to get into, fortunately, two minutes of theology that you can't totally unpack.

But I would recommend this guy's book right here. Thomas Schreiner.

I just started reading this, but he says what everyone else does. Paul speaks from the idea of the consummate, and he's able to use that with the aorist tense and speak from the standpoint of consummation, of completion.

That's what aorist tense is. From completion. But we all recognize at the same time that there's a progressive element, but not yet.

And so, that's definitely going on with Paul. There's no doubt about it. So, the idea of being crucified with Christ is not a one -time act that happened sometime in your past when you received

Jesus into your heart or whatever. It's ongoing throughout your entire life.

Endurance unto the end. Perseverance unto the end of your life. So, we have this thing with Christians that they get baptized, they go to church, they do the thing, and then they say they hit their 30s, and then they start rejecting the

Bible, and they start rejecting God, and they stop going to church. Well, they didn't persevere until the end.

That's the whole thing. They looked like Christians, they talked like Christians for a while, and then they gave away. Jesus gave whole parables about this, sowing of the seeds and different types of hearts and different types of soils.

And so, from all appearances, it looks like, oh, they're Christians, they've gone to church, they've been baptized, all this bunch of other stuff, but then they fall away.

Well, they didn't truly fall away from the faith. Of course, we wouldn't say that. Those who are truly crucified with Christ will die.

Paul talks about the dead in Christ. Those who literally die in Jesus, they die in the

Lord. 1 Thessalonians talks about those who are dead in Christ. That's a part of it.

So, your whole life, from the time of accepting Christ unto the end of your life, all of that is taken into consideration of being crucified, baptized, buried, and also, you shall be raised with him in the same manner that you died with him.

So, it's a comprehensive. Excellent. Excellent. Anyway, that's Thomas Reiner, by the way.

All right, Stacey, do you have any thoughts with that? Yeah, we're crucified with Christ in the meaning of he paid for our sin debt.

Resurrection, however, means believing in that Christ. But that statement, that's just what it means.

We're crucified with him because of what he did. He's the perfect lamb that God accepted to sacrifice.

But that's just what that phrase means. Got it.

Can I take his other 30 seconds for that? Go for it. When he's talking about we're crucified with Christ, I wouldn't say we were crucified with Christ.

I think Christ was crucified on our behalf, in our stead. When he's saying that we are crucified with Christ, what he's saying is what

Paul says later in Philippians, that you've been granted two things, to believe and to suffer for him.

And he is conforming you, God, the Father is conforming us into the image of Jesus Christ. And so, what does that mean? That means we're going to go through the same things he went through because he's conforming us into his image.

So, we will be slandered. We will be mocked. We will be uninvited. The whole things of Luke 6, what

Jesus says, when people persecute you, that's how he treated the prophets. We'll start looking like Christ.

I got to hold this book up. Okay. Good. Stacey, look away when we got some more questions.

No, Trey, what you just said is what Mr. Wright just also said.

Well, I actually wrote that for him, so. You could have. I'm kidding. Okay, next question.

Stacey, this is for you. How would you explain Acts 1 -11 about how

Jesus would return? Are you familiar with that passage by chance? Yeah.

Again, it's Scripture says flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom, imperishable does not put on perishable.

Acts 10 -40 basically says that he was granted resurrection to approve the new covenant kingdom.

All these miracles taking place in that first generation was as a sign to Israel that the new covenant kingdom was real.

So, Jesus is granted physical resurrection, but that body did not go to heaven and sit somewhere in the galaxy as that fleshly body.

There was a transformation that took place. It says he returned in a like manner.

What does like manner mean? I think it means spiritually, because there again, bodies don't float in the sky.

That's not what he's talking about. That's why he said his return.

The kingdom comes without observation. You won't see the son of man again, not one day. They look for the sign of his coming.

Again, it's not some fleshly body floating on the cloud. That's not how God created things. But things happened in the first century to prove the kingdom.

That's why they raised the dead and healed the sick. We're not doing all this stuff today, because it was a purpose in it.

But the kingdom is spiritual, and the point is the end game is heaven. But on earth, it's about growing the kingdom, spreading the gospel again from generation to generation.

Thank you for that. Dr. Frost, do you have any follow -up thoughts with that? No, it's an incoherent message that you wanted to relate to the world that's out there, a world that's incredibly fallen and incredibly depraved in ways that for us as Christians, it's very hard for us to realize and recognize the depravity that's out there.

We want to not look at it, whereas the Bible forces you to look at it. That's why I like reading like and others, because they go headlong into it.

This is what all of the great philosophers struggle with, is death and depravity and meaninglessness.

That's what we're experiencing today in postmodern philosophy. That all came out of World War I, which was just a sickening, sickening war.

Then World War II, which the atrocities that came out of that. Where we're at today, particularly in the

West, is we're in an aftermath of trying to view the evil of just 80 years ago.

It's not that long ago. My mom was still alive when these things were happening. That's where, in the division that we have.

Paul, we don't know how he is now, but we know we'll be like him.

If he was just a body that went to heaven, we know how he is. Everything goes. Stacey, you're sneaky over there.

I want to read this question for Sam. Why do you take the Genesis story of Adam literal?

Why can't Adam be the first high priest who, when removed, could no longer enact the process of atonement?

I take it literal because the scriptures are fairly, this was my dissertation, THM dissertation.

I take it literal because the scriptures do. Paul certainly does in Romans 5. Luke traces the genealogy of Jesus to Adam, the son of God.

All of the genealogies and chronicles are traced directly to Adam. He's the first human being. Without that, the whole message of Paul completely falls apart, totally falls apart.

Because now you've got to deal with sin and about all these other people. Who are these other people? Where did they come from?

It's a big question. It enters into just astronomical problems. The other reason

I do is, a good deal of the literature that I read,

Hebrew commentators, Hebraists, scholars that are far over my head, they don't believe a word of the

Bible, by the way, but they do know Hebrew, Aramaic, Near Eastern language. They know all of this stuff. They all say that the

Bible is a cosmogony. Genesis is a cosmogony. It's written in prose. It's meant to be taken historically.

It's meant to be taken literally. It's what it says. It's an evening. It's a morning. It's a day. God created the heavens and the earth in six days.

It's what it says. That's why I do. I have a wealth of, I'm in a good audience.

I'm in a good company of people for taking it literally. Thank you for that.

Stacy, what do you think, man? Yeah, my views on,

I think, of course, it's literal chapter one, but when it goes into the details of Adam and Eve is when some of the language starts.

Trees and scripture are people. Their fruit is their actions. So, the way

I read it is Eve, in her mind, is conceiving to be like God, and she listens to that.

So, she conceives that thought, and that's her sin. So, to me, that's what happened, because your battle is the flesh.

The way I see scripture is the devil is like the fleshly mind. Just think about it.

An angel is not omnipresent. This battle goes on forever. Jesus came to defeat the flesh, the mind of the flesh.

This is a whole subject to talk about, but that's what I'm seeing.

So, I actually have a question for you, Stacy. When you read about the devil, Satan, Lucifer, and the

King James, you see that more as just the fleshly mind rather than an angelic being with a mind and a will and a volition?

Yeah. The devil, again, angels are omnipresent.

Your battle is that mind. Again, what you're battling is your flesh.

You get the Spirit to overcome the flesh and live holy.

What would you say to somebody that says that the devil is apostate

Judaism? There's typology in scripture.

Anybody that's not a believer is an antichrist. That's the definition. We're talking about, read

James 4, read Romans 8. This is the mindset of the Bible. This is what's going on.

Your battle is the flesh and the mind of the flesh. Christ overcomes that because he's the access to the

Spirit. The Spirit is what overcomes the flesh, greater than you than he that's in the world.

So, to me, that's the battle. That's what's destroyed by fire. The Holy Spirit's the fire.

The Spirit destroys Satan daily, your flesh, day and night. Your Spirit's destroying it.

Let's get this question. I appreciate that clarity because that's something that I didn't understand about the full preterist side of things is they don't really see

Satan or the devil as an angelic being with the mind and will. That's new. I hope that is helpful for the viewership to understand that a lot of full preterists are in agreement that the devil is not a fallen angel or something like that.

Let's move on. I appreciate you clarifying that.

This is from Adam Carmichael. He asked the best questions. I was just going through the chat. I was really proud of him.

He may be to my left over here, too. He's a bearded man. This is for both of y 'all, so y 'all both will get two minutes.

We'll start with Dr. Frost since we were listening to Mr. Stacey. Adam asked, for both of y 'all, should we evangelize full preterists and should full preterists evangelize non -full preterists?

What do you think, Dr. Frost? You first. Well, I think after what you've heard tonight, and Stacey is representative of the what

I call hyper -preterism or full preterism, and that is you have to completely revamp almost every single category in the encyclopedia of Christian theology.

The devil is not the devil. Creation is not creation. Progressive sanctification is not progressive sanctification.

Heaven is not heaven. Death is not death. Ascension is not ascension. The second coming is not a second coming.

Resurrection is not resurrection. So the church just didn't get it wrong on a tweak of eschatology like a non -millennialist would say to a post -millennialist or a post -millennialist would say to a pre -millennialist.

Just a little tweak. If you just tweak it a little bit. No, this is an overhaul. This is an entire overhaul of all of the encyclopedic knowledge of 1900 years of Christianity.

So that would be my first point. So yes, the full preterists should be evangelizing for the salvation of the souls of people like me that utterly reject the idea that Jesus returned in 70

A .D. Right. So, okay. So you say if you're not a full preterist or as where we're coming from, we should be evangelizing full preterists to repent and turn from that.

Oh, yes. I do do that. Yes. I call on them to repent. All right. He has his hand up.

Trey has his hand up. Chime in there. Here's my question.

Let's just be real. What's the point? Why evangelize to Dr. Frost? He's already in the new heavens and the new earth.

What's the point? You're here. Hey, Dr. Frost, you made it. You're wrong, but you made it.

You called Jesus a liar. He's a liar. And see, this is where it leads at the end of the day. If you're going to be, I think, consistent with it, it's going to take you to universalism where everybody's going to be in heaven.

So that's that's interesting. Mr. Stacey, do you think that's a good point that full preterists should be universalists?

And then also chime in to do you try to evangelize non -full preterists? Well, you're inadvertently teaching preterism if you teach the spirit of God is here in the kingdom.

We just have misunderstandings of how it all finishes. Um, we just need to quit lying to people and start reading the

Bible. The reason we teach what we do is we ignore Revelations 21 and 22.

It's never preached. Isaiah, nothing is preached that I talked about tonight. That's why

I preach Revelation 21. I'll have to mute you. Well, you're not.

Well, unfortunately, you're not preaching what it says because it's saying the kingdom is open to the nations. I'd love to have an hour and tell you about it.

Mr. Stacey, please continue. Because it's easy to refute.

People are getting saved and then they're having a new earth. Read it. It's easy to read.

There's lost people outside the city. This is where it leads people who are in orthodoxy, whether they agree with post -mill or not, they're in orthodoxy.

This, what he's doing right here is where it leads people into heresy and heretical bill, because they say, they point out these things and the people look at them like, oh my gosh, because I was taught that this is heaven and there are lost people here.

How are, how are sexual and moral people in heaven? Well, the orthodox historical preterist view would say, well, this is talking about, there's the spiritual aspects of the new, the new heavens and the new earth.

This is the spiritual aspects of the bride of Christ because we are the bride of Christ, right? The church is here now.

We, even though like Jesus says in John chapter 10, he says, look, even though you die, you don't ever die. Whoever believes in me never dies.

So even though we do physically die still, spiritually is a true fact that we don't die. But there's a day coming, there's a day coming when there will be no death.

When Jesus comes back and the full fulfillment of it all, that there, all this stuff will be an actuality and not just a spirituality.

Okay. And then can I keep going? No. Let's, let's pause you, Trey. I get fired up like, like Dr.

Frost, I get fired up. That's okay. Orthodoxy ahead of the word of God. That's the problem.

When you debate, when I debate all these people, it's always what the church is saying. I could care less what was said after 70

AD because it wasn't said by a Hebrew. I'm taught by the scriptures. I'm taught by what

Jesus said and my God don't, my God don't lie in his word that was spoken through the prophets and Jesus.

If he was going to come back before all the apostles are dead, then that's what I got to believe. I have to figure out what he's saying.

I could say a hundred, every single time indicator backs what I'm saying. Who? Who backs what you're saying?

Every single time indicator in the Bible backs what I'm saying. All right.

Yeah, we got, we got more questions. I was, uh, Hey, thank you,

Stacey. Um, that was, that was a lively one. I appreciate that.

So I do love you though. Oh yeah. There's much love in this conversation. Uh, so I do have another question.

I believe this is more so directed for Dr. Frost. It's a

Bible theory. He says, question, Sam, at the end of revelation, sinners are outside or are still outside of Jerusalem and the doors never closed.

Why aren't they wiped out? Why does the spirit and the bride invites, uh, invite sinners still?

What say you? That's easy. Uh, the new Jerusalem in, uh, Revelation 21 and 22 is pictured as, as in heaven, the, those outside of the, because it has to come down out of heaven.

So that means that it's origins is as you say, it's origins in heaven.

So if it's in heaven and you have to die to go into the gates, blessed are those who wash their robes, who are counted worthy to enter in.

Well, how do you enter in? Well, you got to wash your robe first. Well, where do you wash your robes at? We'll read revelation two to the letter that he wrote.

Uh, blessed are those who keep their robes cleaned and then they die.

And then they enter into heaven. It says that blessed are those who wash their robes, who are washing their robes so that they may, that's a purpose clause in Greek so that they may enter into.

Well, what does that look like? Well, blessed are the dead who die in the Lord for now on. They enter into the new Jerusalem, which is in heaven.

It's clearly stated that it's in heaven. He took him up on a high mountain and he showed him it's in heaven. He's in heaven.

And so if the new Jerusalem is in heaven, what is outside? Well, that's the outer courts, the four corners of the earth, which is the outer courts.

It's called that in revelation 11, it's called the outer courts using the exact phrasing that's found in Leviticus for the outer courts, which is where all the slaughtering takes place.

No slaughtering takes place in the temple ever. Only blood enters into the temple, which is that life is in the blood.

The soul is in the life of the blood that enters into the temple, but nothing is ever slaughtered inside the temple ever, ever, ever, ever.

It's carried into, but it's never slaughtered. The slaughtering goes on in the outer courts where our

Lord was crucified. Whereas Egypt, which is not a city, by the way, it's a nation.

So that's where the two witnesses are at. Where are the two witnesses? The two witnesses are in the outer court witnessing, doing their witnessing.

And what happens to them? They're slaughtered. By who? Those who are outside, because that's where they're out in the outer court before they're brought into the holy of holies through death.

Trey, hold your horses. We're definitely going to hear from you, but I want to hear from Stacy first.

What do you think about all of what Dr. Frost said there? Show me any verse on heaven in the

Old Testament and these people living in heaven. Any of these prophecies, this is talking about on earth.

Read all the prophecies, read Micah 4, read Isaiah 2, Isaiah 60. Okay, well

Isaiah 6, he wasn't in New Jersey. This is the saints getting the kingdom and going to the nations as they worship

God weekly. This is not in heaven. This is all invented stuff.

This is Revelation 21 coming out of heaven. Is there a heaven?

Yes. Heaven is my throne and earth is my footstool. Yes. Let's let

Stacy get the whole thought out there. A prophet is subject to a prophet.

There's no prophecy of private interpretation. Those are the two laws you got to filter everything through. Nothing in the

Old Testament is about people in heaven living this utopian life.

It's all about the new covenant that the saints are going to take to the world. All these prophecies are happening on earth.

It's not happening in heaven. Hold on a second. I just want to follow up because this gets to the last question, because if that's the case, then when you die and go to heaven, is it more sin in heaven?

So what is heaven? I've read that.

Heaven is the place we're bound to. That's where heaven was, where we go, where Christ is.

You got to go to what scripture says. Earth, the kingdom is being spread.

Real quick, I definitely want to stay on this topic a little bit. We are coming up on the 2 hour and 30 minute mark.

I just wanted to touch base with y 'all to see if y 'all want to still talk about a few more issues. We got a few more questions.

I think this is going great. I can go to about 10 .30. Okay, it's about 8 .54

my time. It's 9 .54 here. Okay, so you got roughly 30 more minutes.

How are you doing on time, Mr. Stacy? Yeah, I'm fine. Go ahead. Okay, so my turn.

Yeah, Trey, you got about... I'll give you a minute. Okay. I'm going to give you

Stacy's minute here over here. Yeah, I got it ready. So again, this is where heresies come from within the church.

I don't have a problem with what Dr. Frost said. It's within orthodoxy. Why? Because it still holds onto the second coming of Christ, the bodily resurrection of the dead.

Where the heresy comes from is an orthodox historical preterist view, and it goes into the full preterist view.

I would say this, too, that this is talking about the outgrowth of the church. This is talking about the church, the bride of Christ.

The heavenly Jerusalem's coming down. God's dwelling with us, but God dwells in my heart right now. Ultimately, that will be the case, ultimately.

But right now, spiritually, this is the outgrowth of the church, and where the church goes, it heals nations.

Kings bring their stuff into it, right? It says right here, I saw a temple in the city by its light.

The nations walked. The kings of the earth will bring in their glory. That's because the prophecy is the Old Testament, that he will inherit all the nations.

The ends of the earth will be his. This is the outgrowth of the church age, not everything happened in 70

AD. This is taking it way too far, taking it now, because now, like Sam said, now you're contradicting everything in the history of the church, everything else in the

Bible, and you're picking and choosing to say, well, no, that applies to 70 AD. That applies to us. That applies to this. That applies to us, because you can't be consistent.

It's like other fundamentalist religions who read the Bible literalistically, and they just take things in proof texts all the way around it and contradict themselves everywhere.

I think that was a myth. You're good. You're good. Now, Stace, I saw you nodding your head, so speak to that.

It ignores what people are saying. Did I not say the kingdom started in Revelations 21?

That's when it began, from generation... You keep saying, 70 AD, it ends. Jesus said it started when he came.

So, did it start in 70 AD, or did it start when Jesus came? Just go ahead and fix that for us. Generation to generation forever, the church,

Ephesians 321. You just destroyed your whole belief. If the new heaven and new earth...

You just said the kingdom started in 70 AD. Is that correct? Is that what you said? Or just correct yourself. I heard you say that.

You just killed it. You back what I said. Of course, it's the church age. It's people getting saved.

That's Revelations 21 and 22. You just back what I said. There's no final consummation of it, though, right?

There's no final resurrection. There's no... There's not a spiritual and a physical... There's not a already not yet type deal.

It's just... See, this is what you take it to the... You take it too far. If you use those for the church, you have nothing left.

That is orthodoxy believes that where there's no more sin and death.

Otherwise... So now you want to claim orthodoxy when earlier you didn't. Is that what

I heard now? I don't want to say. You don't... You can't even carry on a real... You don't even...

You say what you want to say. I didn't say that. I just said the kingdom is here forever. That's Revelations 21 and 22, the gospel going out.

You said the same thing. But once you do that, you take all your verses away because that's the new heaven and new earth.

Stacy, did you say something? What did you say about orthodoxy? I thought you said that's what orthodoxy has always been saying.

Is that what you said? I'm just asking. Yes, the new heaven and new earth is the new where there's no more sin.

Okay, but earlier you didn't care about orthodoxy. I don't care about...

See, this is what I'm saying. You pick and choose what you want when you want it, when it fits. It depends on what you say.

It's amazing. It has to make sense. The outgrowth of the church, the church is going to expand, expand, expand, and God through the

Holy Spirit is going to work through his church to take the gospel to the nations. And then once that's all done,

Jesus Christ comes back in bodily form and the dead are raised. Okay, you just took the passages of Revelations 21 and 22 and applied it to the church.

Once you do that, that's preterism. That's not what the church teaches. Yeah, it is.

It's called partial preterism, orthodox preterism, historical, not hyper.

All right. I want to hear what Dr. Frost has to say to this.

Well, a big paradigm in the understanding is what

Don Preston and Max King and Jack Scott and Larry Siegel and I called the transition generation.

So you have this transition generation. The transition generation is the generation of the first disciples.

And that goes from Jesus's ministry to 70 AD. So that is the generation.

The already, not yet, that the theologians and everyone applies to us today, that only applied to them in the transition generation.

For us today as a full preterist, there is no already and not yet. There is only an already and that's it.

We are in the already. We are in the fullness if you listen to Don Preston and Max King, who's a universalist, by the way.

He has to be. But anyway, Max King, Tim King, Doug King and Living Presence Ministries, which I spoke at their conferences four times in Warren, Ohio and also in Colorado Springs.

So I got to know Max pretty well and also Tim and Doug. The transition generation from 30

AD to 70 AD was the already and the not yet. The fullness, and I mean nothing lacking fullness.

The fullness was 70 AD, infinity and beyond. So there cannot be any end of history because we're in the fullness of the age to come now.

We are perfection. But my problem with that was as a full preterist, as a theologian, I was wrestling with that.

And my problem was, then why do I have to wait and go to heaven if I'm already in it?

And they couldn't answer that question. Now they go all over the place. Well, we're already there.

Well, we have to die first. So death limits God from what

I can experience in the fullness of the salvation that you say that I have. Death limits what

I can experience now in the new Jerusalem, which I am fully in to the fullness of perfection raised from the dead.

And yet I still have to die and go to heaven to experience it. And if you can't see the problem there,

I can't help you. So I want to hear Stacey respond to that because you brought this up earlier.

So Stacey, what I was hearing was we're already in the new heavens and new earth, but you said when we die, we go to heaven.

And so I think there was a question in the chat just saying, so there's a difference between heaven and the new heavens and new earth.

So kind of respond to what Dr. Frost was saying there, and I'll give you a minute. Okay. Once the new covenant kingdom occurs, heaven and earth is joined because the spirit is in both places.

Yes, we live in this physical body as Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 15, but your second body, your second body is a spiritual body because heaven is spiritual.

It's the invisible. It's where no man can see.

That's where faith comes in. That's the point is going to heaven.

Jesus said, where I am, you may be also. I go to prepare a place. We're just ignoring heaven altogether because we want to come back to this planet, our fleshly bodies.

The end game is heaven for the new covenant believer, which is where eternity is at. But on earth, the kingdom will always continue.

That's what it teaches. That's why I said, scripture is clear from generation to generation, offspring to offspring, forever, the church, the body of Christ, people getting saved.

That's not answering the question. I don't even know if you're even aware of the potency of the destination.

That's the whole reason you need a second body, but it's not going to be a perishable body becoming imperishable.

I'm pretty sure it's Gnosticism. It's ranked Gnosticism is what it is.

And Paul explicitly states that then the end will come when death is swallowed up in victory, then the end will come.

You're saying I get that body at the end when I die. So where does

Paul say this? Because Paul is clearly waiting for death being swallowed up in victory, which happened in 70

AD, by the way. So if I have to wait to die, then death has not yet been swallowed up in victory because then come at the end when death is swallowed up in victory, which you say has happened in 70

AD. But yet I still have to die before I get my resurrection body. But I'm already raised from the dead because I'm regenerated in the spirit, which

I'm already in. And there's a heaven 2 .0. Right.

Oh yes. Heaven 2 .0. Let's make a t -shirt.

Heaven 2 .0. Before 70 AD, he said they're asleep. They're waiting their resurrection.

The resurrection is a spiritual body resurrection. Jesus is the first resurrection.

They also will be resurrected. When did it occur? Go to Daniel. See, you got to believe what it teaches.

You have no passages. When you ignore Daniel 12, you ignore when it happens.

All right. Let me get a little bit of a word from Dr. Frost on that.

Well, Daniel 12 promises when those who sleep in the dust of the earth, which is spiritual, by the way, they'll interpret that all spiritual.

It's all spiritual. Do you see the arbitrariness whenever they need the spiritual? It's the

Johnny Cochran theology. I called it in 2009. If it can't fit, spiritualize it.

And that's what they do. If it can't fit, hyperbolize it. If it can't fit, apocalypticize it.

If it can't fit, figuratize it. Do whatever you got to do to cram it into that 70 AD framework. And that's what they do.

In 2008, 2009, I was struggling with this because I was still pursuing studies and acting with other colleagues and people who were not full preterists.

And they were killing me on this stuff. And I couldn't answer them. But yet I wanted to be honest with the text and say, you know what?

You got me. I don't have an answer to that. Rather than go around this rigmarole of, well, it's spiritual, but it's not spiritual.

But we have to die, but we don't have to die. We never die. But we still do die, but we don't have to die to go to heaven.

But we're in heaven, but we're not yet in heaven. We still are in this fleshly body, but the flesh has been done away with and crucified.

We're no longer walking in the flesh anymore. Meanwhile, the flesh still has to die before you go to heaven, before you get to heaven, which we're already in, by the way.

And this is nuts. I'm sorry to be emotional, but this is where my mind was going and why

I reached for a bottle of Jack Daniels to escape it. You need to get fired up or something,

Sam. Because I went through all of this. I agonize. I get it. I get it.

When I talk to some groups, I feel the same way and the same passion. But here's what I want to know, Stacey. I got a question for you.

When creation itself is longing for the sons of God to be revealed, okay? Because God made the world and the physical world.

He said it was good. And you say it's not about the physical, it's about the spiritual. And Jesus came to make all things new, all things.

And I think in all things in Greek means all things. Sam, you're a Greek scholar. So when he comes to make all things new, are we saying no, that's spiritual?

Creation is about the people. All of creation heard the gospel. We're talking about people.

You got to look at Hebraic. How do they use God's creation? They use it within themselves.

It's not talking about animals. The scriptures is not about the animals.

It's not about the trees and the birds and the bees. It's about souls and eternity. Okay. That's all.

I just want to clear that up. So when he says all creation, he came to make all things new. That just means really people.

Yeah. It means what he's talking. Hey, y 'all are all

Romans chapter eight, 19 through the following. You have subjective creation itself. So the creation itself will be liberated.

Creation is longing for a very Jewish. Any Jew would read that passage in Romans chapter eight and understand totally what

Paul was saying right there. And I believe every Christian would as well, because the Holy Spirit who wrote those words down lives in the Christian and we believe the word.

And so, but we, I got you. It doesn't mean it. That's what you're saying. And one of the reasons why a lot of Jewish, you guys know this as apologists.

One of the reasons why Jewish apologists are so antagonistic towards Christians is that they're Gnostics. Whereas the

Jewish love, the Jews love creation. This is, this is Hashem's creation and he's going to restore it.

And yet you guys teach this spiritual manby -pamby stuff. You know, you don't even care for your own body.

And to the Jew, that's nonsense. Oh, I'm going to listen to them. The people who killed the Messiah.

Yeah, I got you. You quote the Jews. Well, they're just fleshly and carnally minded.

Well, which one are they? Carnally minded? Or do they speak this way in their own Hebrew Bible, which apparently they don't understand.

Hey, are the sun, moon, and stars people? That's what I want to know. No, the sun, moon, and stars are part of creation.

It's part of creation where Jesus is coming to make all things new. That's part of that, all things. So Jacob and his wife and kids are the sun, moon, and stars.

That's a metaphor. Exactly. But to have a metaphor, you'd have to have a reality.

As my professor would always ask, what's a metaphor? Yeah, and that's what they use as a metaphor.

Adam was a type of the one to come, right? The one to come existed before the type.

So the first Adam existed before the Adam in the garden. Again, it's not literal.

It's kingdom changes. You can't have the sun, moon, and stars going black when the Medes defeat

Babylon or when Egypt is destroyed. You can't pick and choose when you want to use it.

Everybody's muted at the moment because I just want to say I love it. Y 'all are doing a fantastic job.

We're about two hours and 45 minutes, and so this will be good for people to go back and listen to.

I want to turn it over to all of y 'all if y 'all want to continue this discussion or if y 'all want to move on to just one or two more last questions.

Trey, what do you think? Why are you showing man -made books?

I bet you if I went through your house, I'd find one, Stacey. Here's a man -made book. I guarantee you

I'd find a book in your house, Stacey. I'm going to hold you to your standard. Wait a second. I hold you to your standard, and I would make you apologize on here.

What I would say is this. I agree that Jesus is not going to come on a magic carpet ride.

That's judgment language. That's Isaiah 19. It's all the Old Testament. It's judgment language.

So yes, again, again, heresies come from within the church. They take the teachings of church, and they distort them just like Satan did in the garden, and they say, did

God really say? When he said all things, did he really mean all things? No, he didn't. When he said heaven, he really meant heaven 2 .0.

That's what he really meant. That's where it goes, and I hate it. I'll tell you the truth right now.

Right now, Stacey, here's what breaks my heart. You're probably in church. You probably had a lot of hard questions because you were trying, digging, digging, digging in scripture, and you didn't have some shepherds to say, listen, don't sheep, don't go over here in this pasture because there's poison in this pasture.

There's wolves in this pasture, and so you didn't have shepherds looking after you, so you started going over this pasture, and you think you found some meat, but actually it was poison, and you didn't have anybody telling you because somebody was teaching you this, and you're like, man, this is deep.

This is what I've been craving. I want deeper. I want to understand more, and they gave you this, and you latched onto it.

What do you think about that, Stacey? Poison is your Greek and Roman church that you go to.

That's what happened. The Greeks and Romans sabotaged the Hebraic church, and that's why we teach all this clownage.

It's trying to interpret the Bible by American speech. We can't be doing that. We need to interpret it through Hebraic language in their thoughts.

This is why nothing is making sense in this debate other than what it says, and it says the kingdom is open in Revelation 22.

Mr. Stacey, let me chime in here. Dr. Frost, what do you have to weigh in with?

Did I mute you? I'm sorry. I had you muted. Well, it's one of the reasons why, again,

I sold my business and house and started a hyper -preterist church for four years. I got this message.

I understood it. Don Preston still publishes my book, Exegetical Essays on the Resurrection.

I wish he wouldn't, but he does. That shows me he doesn't have any class, but whatever. Again, I spoke at over 25 conferences from 2003 to 2008.

I ate, slept, and breathed this stuff, and I believed it, but it led to confusion.

I've watched it rip families apart. I've watched it rip people apart completely. It just leads to confusion.

Listen, people said I left because of money. I made more money as a full preterist than I do now.

I've been accused of every possible thing. You're going back to the Roman church.

No, I'm not. I'm a Presbyterian. I came to my senses.

By the Holy Spirit, I realized what I was doing. I thank the Lord that he gave me a spine to realize that my career and my reputation was wrong, and I had to leave all of that.

It was extremely agonizing to realize that everything that I've been doing for 10 years was wrong.

That's a mental problem. Thank you for sharing that.

Do y 'all want to have any closing thoughts, or do y 'all want to do one more question?

What do y 'all want to do? I can do one more question. I want to go home and see my wife and kids.

Yeah, I was exactly thinking that, Trey. My wife's like, I got spaghetti for you. Yeah, I got some points now.

I see how it is. Yeah, that's it. I made you spaghetti.

Hey, we'll end it there. Thank y 'all so much, everybody. Trey, even your input was awesome.

I think it gives a spectrum to see all the things, all the issues that are at play. I really do thank y 'all.

Hopefully, we can do something like this again in the near future, but we are winding down.

Trey, that was quite an adventure, man. What about it? I like being the color commentator.

That's fun. I'll tell you, I think Dr. Frost's opening statement, I wasn't even reading the comments.

I thought it was so beautiful. I think it's such a beautiful message of just what God's doing in the world and his plan.

That was great. Well, Trey, thanks for being here, man. I'll be coming to your neck of the woods before too long.

We'll be going to Arizona to ReformCon, getting to see Jeff Durbin, Dr. White, Joe Boot, the man

I hear. The boot. Guess what? I get to talk more about eschatology and Revelation 21, 22 when we do

Thy Kingdom Come documentary at the end of this year as well. Yes, everybody will be looking out for that.

They came and interviewed me. I gave an interesting perspective of saying, look, we champion the orthodox perspectives.

We can talk about the nature of the coming and these things, but we do talk about those parameters. Those parameters were talked about tonight.

I pray that this video would be helpful, people that agree, disagree. Hopefully, that this will be educational and informative.

Trey, thanks so much, man. We are going to wind it up. Go ahead. I want to end with this. Christ is coming again in bodily form and the dead will be raised.

Believe it. Amen. Well, thank you all for joining us, joining the apologetic dog.

We have more content to come, so please like and subscribe so you don't miss anything that we have to show you.