Can Women be Pastors and a Great Conversation with a Muslim | Apologetics Live 0020

We had a question on the little questionnaire that your people sent me, it said, do you feel like you might be offending Democrats with some of the things you say? And my response to that is, look, my goal is to offend everyone.

That is my initial goal, to tell you that you are without God in the world, that there's only one Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, that you're in sin, that sin brings death and punishment, but the good news is Jesus Christ is the Savior, who's provided a way for you to be forgiven by burying your sins in his body on the tree, so that God's justice is satisfied and his love can be extended to you by putting your trust in Christ.

It's Apologetics Live with Matt Slick and Andrew Rappaport, part of the Christian Podcast Community.

Women Pastors and 1 Timothy 2

All right, we are live, Apologetics Live. We are here every Thursday night, 8 o 'clock Eastern Time, to answer your apologetics questions. We are glad you have joined us again, and folks, the encouragement I always have is to get in early.

We always get the people that want to come in at the end of the show, and then they kind of complain they don't have enough time to ask their question or challenge. So, best way to get in is get in early.

How do you get in? Go to apologeticslive .com. It will bring you to a page where you will see the link to join. That link is always there just before 8 o 'clock. We have to put that up just before that.

So, with that, we would like to invite in, we got Matt Slick here. And Matt, I don't know if you know who that voice was in the intro there. Nope. That was John MacArthur being interviewed by Ben Stein.

Ben Stein, sorry. Wow, I just drew a blank on his name. Ben Shapiro. Ben Stein's a different Jew. But he was on Ben Shapiro's show, and basically that was the question. They asked him whether he was upset that he might be offending Democrats, and he said, no, my goal is to offend everybody with the gospel.

And though we're not looking to be offensive here, Matt, we are looking to share the gospel, and the gospel is an offense to sinners who don't want to admit that. Yikes. You got that right. Yeah, so I created a firestorm this week, Matt, on Twitter.

I thought this was pretty innocent, but I've gotten, what, like, I don't know, a couple thousand responses by now. But I just put this out. A church with a female pastor is not a church, and she's not a pastor.

Good.

I agree, because it'd be a false church. Well, you know, defining church there, but she's definitely out of the will of God in that.

Yeah, and that's basically, you know, everyone's challenging me with it, but I don't see a lot of scripture in context with that.

Of course not. They're wacko liberals who take their finger, put it up in the air to see which way the doctrinal window's blowing, and they go that way, and who cares?

So let me add, the passage I've been challenging them with is 1 Timothy 2, verses 12 to 14. So what I figured would be good, Matt, let's start off. I'd like you to tell us why that passage is so essential on this topic and what it actually teaches about women's role in the church.

It's essential because it's Paul, and what it says is they're not to be an authority. Next. Oh. You want me to expound on it a little bit more than that? See, you ask me these questions, I'm slick and quick.

I'm going to answer it, and then we go on to the next topic. You know, I mean, and besides, I like doing that to you, so it's a lot of fun. All right, you ready? Go for it. No? All right, all right. Paul, the apostle, if you go to Acts 9 .15, Paul is called by Jesus to be an apostle, et cetera, et cetera.

And Paul says, I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created and then Eve. So what Paul is doing is saying that it is not based on cultural norms.

It is based on the created order of God. Before the fall, Adam was created first and Eve. So what he's tying it in is to how God wants things done. Now, a lot of people will complain and whine and go, you don't like it.

And that's fine, they can do that all they want. But what Paul says in the next chapter, but in case I'm delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God.

What he's doing is giving instructions on how you're to behave in the household of God. So when I talk to people about this, I say, that's what it says right there. So a woman is not to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain silent or quiet.

For it's Adam who was first created and Eve. And I just, you know, what are they going to do? Are they going to believe God's word or not? And then they try and set scripture against scripture. Well, look at Phoebe.

Look at Deborah. Look at, wait a minute. Are you saying you understand what this text says? And then you're trying to contradict it with something else in the word of God. What are you? Are you a Christian?

Do you believe God's word contradicts itself? Deal with what the verse actually says instead of going someplace else to try and set scripture against scripture. And then they don't like that. But, you know, you got to do that.

That's just, that's what that verse is talking about right there. Okay. Okay. So first Timothy. I'm getting an echo.

Two, 12 and 13. That's because your mouth is open. It's echoing in the head. So first Timothy 2, 12 to 14 has two reasons for this. Now, the question I have for you. Oh, you like, you include 14. Okay.

Well, is the. The woman was deceived. Yeah. Yeah. So is this, are these two reasons that he gives, are they cultural or are they something else? Not cultural. And what from the context would tell us that?

It's, I told you Adam and Eve before the fall.

Well, and, and so it's, it's, he bases it in creation, right? The creation order.

Yeah. Before and after the fall, because 13 is before the fall and 13, 14 is after the fall. It was not Adam who was deceived, but it was one being deceived. Felony transgression. So what he does is he states it before and after the fall right there in verses 13 and 14.

But some people, what they'll do is they'll say, oh, that was before the fall. And so it doesn't apply now. What? You know, I seriously get all kinds of stuff from people.

Why do you think it is that this issue really gets people going? I mean, people get really upset when you deal with the issue of women with one area. There's just one thing they can't do in the church, right?

The restrictions for them being, having authority over men. So they can do all these other ministries. Why is it that everyone focuses on that one issue? Like as if that's the most important thing for a woman to do.

Because they're liberals, they're not listening to the word of God. That's why.

Why do you think, because you've dealt with this before. I know that you've dealt with this before with the violence that comes out with some people. Because you actually were in a church where you had to back out of a church in your Krav Maga stance.

Worried because how upset they were. Why do you think people get upset over this issue?

Because they, I believe that they get loyal to an idolatrous position that they put above scripture. And their lives, their identity are tied up into it. And if someone comes in and challenges that, they're going to react very negatively.

And so they should recognize that. As you mentioned, five, six years ago, I was passing out literature at a church about their women pastors and elders. And the reason I did was because I went to talk to them.

And they said they would talk to me. Then they went back on their word. So then I said, okay, well, I'm going to go to the body of Christ. I'm trying to be biblical. Talk to you first. And ask him to give me a reason for the faith that lies within you about this particular issue.

They said they would. Then they went back on their word. I said, okay, I'm going to go out to the body. And they said, are you threatening us? It was ridiculous. These Christians. And so I and some friends of mine and I went out during the snowfall.

We stood out there on public property. And we passed out literature about this woman issue. Just asking, why are you doing this? Here's what the Bible says. Why do you have this in your church? They called the police on us.

And the police came. And they were very polite. The police were. And so we're out there in the cold while it's snowing. And nobody came out to see how we were doing. Nobody came out to bless us. Bless those who persecute you.

Nobody came out to make sure we were okay or warm. Nobody did. But they called the cops on us. This is a big local church here that happened. And so, like I said, the police came. We talked. They said everything was fine.

Everything, no big deal. Continued to pass out literature for another couple of hours. People took it. I know they took it into the church. I know it caused a problem. And I was told that there were lawyers in the church.

And that I need to be careful. So it was just ridiculous. So on the way home, I stopped by another church down the street from me. And they had a meeting. And I walked in. And we got talking. They're very friendly until I said, why do you have women pastors and elders?

And just to be clear, what happened was I ended up in my Krav Maga stance. It's just kind of standing with your hands up open, one foot back. And you can move that way. And you're ready for whatever. But also the hands are up.

It just means not only problem. But you can also put your hands and do some things. And so I had my hands open like this. And I was literally skipping details. But I literally was ending up backing up out of the parking lot towards my car.

While the pastor had his arm on one guy holding him back who wanted to attack me. Because the pastor had said, what happened was I was outside the church. I thought he asked me to leave from asking the question.

And the pastor was angry at me. And so I was outside. And another guy, one of their flunkies guys started coming towards me. And I put my hands up like this. And the pastor was already walking back into the church.

Put my hands up. There was about eight or ten feet of distance between us. And between this guy and I. And the guy stops and then yells out loud. He shoved me. And I didn't even touch him. And it was about eight feet difference.

The pastor turns around and yells out, did you shove him? And everybody starts looking at me. And I'm like, oh, my goodness. Right there I knew this was dangerous. And so I had to start defending myself verbally.

And I started yelling out. No, I didn't. I said he lied. I never touched him. I'm back here. And he started approaching me. And so I put my hands up. And I'm yelling this out. And he comes back. The pastor is next to the same guy.

And I said, you've got to tell him. Because he flat out lied. And the guy looked at me and made that masculine gesture. You put your shoulders forward and you take a step forward. That's very aggressive.

I put my hands up at this point. I was ready. And the pastor stopped him and said, there'd be none of that here. So this guy was ready to physically assault me. And I just got out of there. This is what happened in Christian church.

Twice the same day. So I was threatened with physical harm. I was accused falsely, lied about, and the cops called on me. Just because I asked them, can you defend the idea of women pastors and elders from the Bible?

I've noticed that people get real upset over this. I also noticed another trend. I think you've noticed this. There seems to be a trend that when you first allow for female pastors, something the Bible doesn't support, that soon we start to see other things start to go.

Do you see this as kind of that first issue, that watershed issue, that kind of is the first of many falls theologically?

Yeah, I did a lot of research on this. And 80 in my research, let me explain what I did first. I went through and it took me roughly two weeks. I went through and looked at denominational websites and researched women pastors, elders.

We researched their dates when they came on through history, whatever it was. Took me a while to find this stuff out, different denominations. Researched if and when homosexuality became an acceptable issue.

And then I wrote it. So it's up on CARM someplace. And basically my findings were that within one to two, it was a variation, one to two generations of adopting women pastors and elders, 80 of the church denominations are affirming the issue of homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle.

It's not that serious a deal. And so apostasy comes first. Let me tell you something. The Word of God says what it says. If you don't like it, then I suggest you either take your Bible and put it up on a shelf because it might offend you someplace else.

Or you can take the Ronco exacto knife and you can cut out those verses, scriptures that offend you personally. And then you can make it say what you want to say. You can do that, or you can submit to the will of God.

Now, a lot of people don't understand is that men are the ones who are supposed to do this because men are the ones who are supposed to be an authority. Masculinity is under attack in our culture, heavily under attack.

I just talked to somebody recently who I won't give too many, any details, only be very, very generic. He, to no fault of his own, due to a family issue, went to counseling with all the family members, and it turned into a male bashing time.

I go, oh, yeah. That's what happens. When I was, you know, early in my marriage, my wife and I had some problems, and we went to some counselors. And I learned very quickly, it's just male bashing. If my wife were to say to me today, let me go to counseling, I would say, first thing in my mind would be, oh, because you want to see your husband get bashed.

To me, that's all it is. And so I don't put any trust in the counselors now, hardly at all, because of that. And they, Christians and non-Christians alike, are ready to start jumping on the Anglo-Saxon, white Protestant, American male type of guy.

I believe it's well entrenched in their culture. And so I also believe that there's a deception going on within Christian families, within Christian churches, in varying degrees. But as far as this goes, that too many people are listening to the lies of the world and want total equality in everything.

Transgender this, don't, you know, you're a sexist, you're this, whatever. It's ridiculous stuff. And so it bleeds over into the church. And those people who are not dedicated to the Word of God, who do not believe the Word of God, who do not trust the Word of God, but open their mouths, drag their knuckles, their eyelids are at half-mast, and they go to a church that tells them what they want to hear, and their ears are tickled and they like it.

And then they go out to a restaurant and get served, and this is their Christianity. These kind of people are the ones that need to be driven out of the church. And what I tell pastors is that what they've got to do is they've got to start preaching to thin the church out, start calling people to task, and start calling them to the cost of discipleship, because it's not being preached, it's not being taught.

The pastor is supposed to preach and teach to the Christians. He's supposed to equip the Christians for the work of ministry, Ephesians 4, 11 through 12. He's supposed to be doing that work, not babysitting the unbelievers.

Let the unbelievers come in. They're welcome to come in and hear that gospel message. But the pastor is not supposed to preach in order to make people feel comfortable, because if he does, he's compromising the Word of God.

So when men start feeling comfortable, they become atrophied. They don't do anything. They get spiritual potbellies. They become weak, and they don't know what to stand up for. And so in our society where the male is under attack, and the female is the one who's always in charge, and the female is the one who's made to look intelligent and capable, the man's a doofus.

Well, then all the more for the men to sit on their hands, to do nothing, to be weak, to not obey the scriptures, be strong, be men, 1 Corinthians 16, 13. And what they do is allow women pastors and elders to get into the church.

And it is a shame upon them that this occurs, and they need to have the spiritual guts in order to stand up for righteousness and say, no, we don't allow this. But they don't do it because they're wimps.

They don't believe the Word of God to gather teachers to tickle their own ears and quell the discomfort of their own hearts so that they might feel better about themselves, about their wives, and et cetera.

They're not willing to lead the way they're supposed to lead. I don't care if the world doesn't like what I'm saying. I don't give a flying frigging rip if they like it or not. Who cares? I got to answer to God.

That's what the Word of God says, and that's what I'm going to stand for. So there you go.

Okay, and I do want to ask you another question. But first, I just want to give a call out to a guy by the name of Reformed Calvinist. If there's anyone who knows who Reformed Calvinist is, invite him into this Hangout.

He said, why do you, speaking to you, Matt, why do you not represent true Calvinism? You're a fraud. I invited him in, and he vanished on us. So anyone who knows who Reformed Calvinist is, invite him in to actually defend his claims.

We'll see if he would actually come in and be more than just a keyboard warrior. Notice a lot of keyboard warriors out there. So, Matt, here's the arguments that were given to me with that tweet, and it is, but you're putting God in a box.

So, Matt, are you putting God in a box by saying that women can't be a pastor? No. Why not?

Well, I would ask the person who said that. I'd say, okay, show me the box. Well, they're going to turn to Debra. Was Debra an elder or a pastor in a church? Oh, she was a leader. She was a judge. And she was a judge to the shame of men.

But then I'll ask, was she a pastor, an elder? No. Was it a church context? No. Okay.

I'd say, next. Yeah, so who is it that puts that limit there? Is it?

It's they who are doing this. They're the ones who have put God in a box and say God can't operate this way. Even though the Word of God says what it says, what we're going to do is tell you how God's really going to be.

And we need to have equality because the world is looking at us. We have to please the world, the secularists, the antichrists, the people who trample the Word of God under their feet. We're going to join with them.

And what we're going to do is we're going to say women can be pastors and elders when the Bible speaks against it. That's what's happening.

All right. And I think that the reason this is such an important issue, as we said, I mean, this is often the first step in the spiral downward. And this goes completely against our culture. But the fact is culture does not define the interpretation of Scripture.

Nope. And we don't submit to culture. We submit to God. And the people who want to make this argument and say, well, this is what God wants. God is love. He's going to love everyone. Well, God has the right to decide how He wants His creation to be.

As the creator, He actually has that right. So, you know, I think that it's God who has set this up. All we're trying to do is say to submit to Him and His Word. And I think that becomes the real issue.

It's that it's the fact that people do not like God's standard, and they want God to submit to their standard versus them submitting to God's standard. Right. That's what it is.

Interesting. You know, so, you know, the Bible goes on and tells us in 1 Timothy 12, it says that the elder is to be the—actually, it's Andromedes Gunaikos, a man of one woman, a husband of one wife. And so that's what he's supposed to be doing.

The elder is supposed to be a man who holds to having one wife. Now, in the culture, men were married very quickly. You just were. Everybody was married. And the elder, Presbutoros, is to be the husband of one woman.

A woman can't do that. So, you know, it's just a real simple thing. And also, let me say that this is an authority issue. I've had some people tell me that it's not an authority issue. It's a cultural issue, which we've already addressed.

And some people will say, no, men don't have authority over women, that they're equal before God. And what they're doing is they're misrepresenting categories. Yes, they're equal before God, Galatians 3 .24, but they're not equal in their positioning.

And just as a man in a marriage relationship is the head of his wife, if they're equal before God, how can he be the head of his wife? That's what the Bible says, but yet they're still equal. The equality is in a different sense.

And so what they do is they very often misrepresent the word of God and then try and set the word of God against the word of God. So what they don't realize that they're doing is they're actually aiding and abetting the enemy of the gospel when they do this kind of a thing.

Titus 1 .6 also says that the elder is to be a husband of one wife. And so the Bible clearly tells us that, and this is the position that Paul the apostle has stated in the church. And finally, I've had people tell me, well, that was just his opinion.

I'm serious. I've had people say, well, that's just Paul's opinion. We don't want to go with it. And I say, well, he's giving instruction to the church. So you're just saying that your opinion is as good as Paul the apostle.

And I've had people say, yeah, and they're serious. And, you know, that's what I tell them. Okay, could you take your right hand and put it in front of your face? You know, look to your left, now slap yourself upside the head because this idiocy is present.

So what men need to do in the church, what men need to do everywhere is study the word of God and get in groups with men and start studying the word. Men with men, women with women, men need to start studying and study these issues and what's the man's responsibility in the church is to lead and to guide as well as sacrifice and to serve.

And so he's supposed to do that. And if a woman pastor or elder is there, he's failed to do his job. And we're talking about, normatively speaking, we're talking about stuff in the United States, Western cultures and things like that.

And this is a shame to men. So when I see women pastors and elders on TV, I've seen some stuff on channels and I see men around them. I always look at the men, what's wrong with you guys? What's wrong with you?

That you don't have the guts to stand up for righteousness. That you don't have the guts to stand on God's word. What's wrong with you? And I blame it and I blame the men. When Adam and Eve were in the garden, she sinned first.

She gave the fruit to Adam and then he sinned by eating it. But when they both were hiding, the pre-incarnate Christ said to the man, where are you? He didn't say to them, Adam and Eve, where are you?

He didn't say to her, what have you done? He said to the man, where are you? So the pre-incarnate Christ addressed the man. He was the one responsible. This is how it is. So I tell men this. Men need to submit to this because it's what the Bible says.

Women need to submit to it because it's what the Bible says. Both need to repent. If they don't agree with what this teaching is, they need to repent. And they need to come into harmony with the word of God and do not look at culture as a determiner for biblical truth.

Okay.

So, you know, I was teaching a Bible study through Genesis chapter 3. Interesting thing that I noticed that I think applies to this. And you went back to the fall. Genesis chapter 3. When we look at what happened with Eve and the serpent, you see the serpent come and he says to Eve, he says to the woman, did God actually say you shall not eat of any tree in the garden?

Now, this is what I find so interesting about that, Matt, is that Adam was told he could eat of any tree he wanted in the garden, except one, right? There's only one that couldn't be. And yet what we end up seeing is that's the only one that the serpent focused on.

As if you can't have one, then it means you can't have any. Right. I see the exact thing here. These people who try to say if you can't have a woman as a pastor, then she can't do anything in church. You're restricting her.

You're sexist. You're telling her she can't do anything and she's meaningless in the church because she can't do one thing. She can do a thousand other things. There's one thing God said she can't do.

It's the same thing as with the tree. There's one tree they can't eat of and the serpent acts as if, oh, then you can't do anything if you can't do that one. And it's the same thing over and over again.

You got company over? Right now, no. I'm hearing somebody. I don't know what's going on. I'm hearing stuff. Is anybody else hearing it?

Yeah, we think it might be Keith. I'm going to bring Keith in and turn his volume up. His volume was down. I'm not hearing anything. Keith, you're in here. Do you have any questions for Matt?

Yes, I am here. And there is a good chance that sound could be coming from here. Okay. Let me see if I can step out of the door here. All right. Yeah, I did have a question. It's dark over there. Yeah, well, I'm outside right now.

We see a black screen. Well, here's a clue. I'm a blind guy, so I don't do well with screens. Ah! All right. So what question do you have for Matt?

Are you there? Oh, wait. Something happened. He went mute on us. Let's see if we can unmute. You got to unmute yourself, Keith. If you can hear us, you have to unmute yourself. I can't seem to do it.

There we go. I totally agree with y 'all about women and pastorship. I heard it put this way once before, is if you have the woman pastor, you have to ask are there not any men in the church? And assuming that there are no men, knock yourself out.

Assuming if there are men in that church, pardon the language, they should grow a pair and stand up and preach. And if you're not in that church and it offends you, hey, there's your mission field. Go and become their pastor.

Easier said than done, I know, from what Matt had said earlier.

Yeah. Then we have this very, very, very unusual situation. And then you can say, ah, no, she's validly a pastor. And then when you say, oh, in this situation she's a pastor, over there she can be a pastor.

Now, if you're on a planet with only women, okay, the necessity would bring that in. Now, just to be fair, I talked to a woman in Pakistan who was a pastor, and she told me that if the men had stepped up to do the job, they'd have been killed.

What do you do? Well, I told her, well, then teach them. Do what you got to do. And that situation's very, very strange, but God does allow things that are aberrant to occur and he uses them. But what we understand is supposed to be is women are not to be in that place of authority.

They should never use a justification.

It was mentioned earlier too by Deborah. And I will say that is an exception. Not the rule. And so, yeah, I can see exceptions. But for the rule, I would not agree.

Here's the thing, Keith, with Deborah. If you actually read the book of Judges, Deborah says to Barak that her being a judge is a judgment on him. She knows what she's doing is wrong, but because he won't step up.

For a general, he was kind of wussy because he says, I'll go and fight if you go with me.

And she said that that's a condemnation on him. So she wouldn't agree with the people that used her as the excuse.

She knew she wasn't supposed to be in that place, didn't want to be in that place. And the men were failing. That's why I say women, pastors and elders are a testament to the failure of men in the church.

To step off of that topic, the question I have, and I just heard this today, I didn't hear the full context, but the question was, if you say you don't believe in hell, does that make you not a Christian?

No. And I think as well as questions like, do you still beat your wife? No. Or the atheist is trying to catch you to say yes or no, and they can pounce on you.

No, the issue of hell's existence is not a biblically declared necessity for salvation. Right. The deity of Christ is his physical resurrection is also. And so we don't know.

Yeah. Now, my response to that would have been in Revelation. I think it's 2014. It says Hades was cast in like a fire. And so if hell is no longer in existence at some point, then clearly we can still be Christians and still be believers without having hell slash Hades.

Are you an annihilationist?

I'm not sure what that means. That you believe that people don't suffer in hell forever?

That they are annihilated? Well, the scripture teaches that there is a eternal place called hell, and I will leave it there.

Yeah. But is the hell non-existence to you?

Well, you know, I'm just saying in that scripture that talks about the death and hell will be cast in like a fire. You know, all the souls emptied out. They'll be judged. You know, those who are judged are also tossed in like a fire.

Yeah, I understand. But what I'm saying, though, is the question was, if you say there's no hell, are you a Christian? Someday there won't be a hell because there won't be a need for it.

Yes, there will eternally be a hell. Okay. And there's going to be eternally a judgment upon people. And hell will not cease. Their eternal torment will not cease.

Well, let's be specific with the verse he's bringing up because there may be confusion with it. So Hades, which is often referred to as hell, is thrown into the lake of fire. So technically, the eternal place, the eternal resting place of the verse he's talking in Revelation is lake of fire.

Now, some people refer to the lake of fire as hell. Some refer to it as Hades. So I guess they may guess Matt's question a little bit differently for you, Keith. Do you believe that there is an eternal lake of fire where people will spend eternity in punishment for their sin?

Yeah.

And that's a key thing to answer the question is how do you define what hell is? Right. Because if someone says, oh, hell is, you know, Sheol, the grave, well, that will come to an end. But the lake of fire will still be there.

So it depends on how a person defines what hell is. And yeah, I agree with you. There is an eternal place. Okay. Because the Bible says there is an eternal place. And I'm not going to go against that.

Good for you. You're right. But I just heard this question. It's like I didn't catch the whole context of it. And it just kind of struck a chord on my mind. I thought it'd be a good thing to ask you about tonight.

Sure.

I'm glad you did. Yeah. And I take the position that there, you know, hell or Hades. And hey, look at that. We'll be cast into the lake of fire. That's the eternal resting place. And it's like that will have an eternal.

You're also going to see a new heaven and new earth. God will have a final resting place there as well. So any other questions you have, Keith?

No. I was going to say, though, in case it trips me up, I hear my wife calling me. Anyway, reference to past shows.

Yeah. You want to make sure your wife is you don't want to be. What was it? Everyone called him angry, bald John. Right. I think that was it. So you don't want to be like him or Mac gets you on the you know, you're getting challenged.

And then all of a sudden you got your wife's calling. You got to go.