The Atonement

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White.

The Weather and Morning Banter in Phoenix

And good morning, welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning the first day of autumn in Phoenix and the reason I say that is not because of any particular thing going on on the calendar, but I Noticed yesterday at one point in the morning the dew point was 66 degrees and last night as I was going to bed I checked it again, and it was 30 it had dropped 36 degrees in about 12 hours that means it's dry as a bone and Currently only 87 degrees outside which was the low.

Actually when I rode on Saturday, it started at 88 or so. That was before sunrise so and with humidity so in other words the monsoon has broken. It's glorious outside and I saw you know what I saw, you know, the low in my backyard is more than 66 66 degrees and it just sort of skipped the 70s.

It had been in the high 80s, you know, I saw 65. Okay. Well congratulations because the pool probably know that actually right now that would be the opposite because the pool is still be pretty warm. Groundwater would probably still be pretty warm right now.

But anyway We didn't have any lows in the 70s. It went it was literally the night before though. It was dropped 20 degrees boom gone like that. It's like yes.

The weather guys were saying that they were having a freeze warnings up north. Yep. That's right.

Hit 32 in Flagstaff. So it's like whoo. Now those you up in Canada. I see some of the part are Canadians like Flammeau de Canada who's in channel right now? And she's going like oh great here comes the negative 40s wonderful and Those of us who are here in Phoenix are like, yes, you can finally go outside without immediately steaming.

It's great. So anyhow, we're we are truly excited about all of that stuff and very very happy and pleased That it's that it's nice here. Um, I Just saw flammeau de Canada see that somebody's get kicked about now.

This was gonna be funny. But anyways If I'm somewhat distracted at times because I'm keeping an eye on the video monitors. I Managed to scare off a car thief yesterday. Man, I'll tell you they knew they're they're going after one of our cars and they knew exactly what they were doing and I watched Them doing it the whole time and as soon as I realized exactly what they're up to We got rid of them real quick man, I'll never forget how fast they get out of that parking lot.

Anyway.

So I'm keeping an eye on that even though there's plenty of folks out there today. I'm probably not gonna do anything today, but there were folks out there yesterday to there. They're just bold. They're just brazen.

It's it's incredible. The uber librarian Marie Peterson sent me an email this morning and with some links to some articles and We I Am on the air right now and Java man is asking me. Oh, what's the difference between visits and page views?

Well, let me just stop the whole program here right now and explain to Java man the difference between visits and page views. You know, I would love to see Java man Who is also known as Chris Irons and try to do anything on a computer while he's doing his radio program?

That would be such that'd be such a hoot. The man is not a multitasker. But evidently he thinks that I am or more probably has no idea that I'm currently doing anything now someone just went into the Entryway there.

I thought maybe possibly. Yes, okay. All right, just Just a little extra vigilant, you know. If they hit the button and scream alahu akbar with that person is supposed to be here, that's good. I'm glad that person is supposed to yes, that person is supposed to be here.

I know who that is. Thank you very much. Anyway. Huh? Okay I was anyways the uber librarian sent me some articles this morning some links to some articles on the subject of the Atonement and I Really need to start getting focused on this.

It's a wonderful thing to be focused on. And I was reading through them this morning and.

I.

Just think a lot of people are not aware of How far out of the quote-unquote mainstream most of us are? When it comes to What we believe and when they're exposed to the other viewpoints They're really rocked because they just don't know those of other viewpoints are out there.

Most quote-unquote evangelical churches and again We are gonna have struggle with the meaning evangelical today because many of the people who are writing Against the concept of substitutionary Atonement many people who do not believe in substitutionary Atonement and identified as child abuse and things like this are viewed by the world as evangelicals and I said to a Evangelical leader recently, I don't consider myself an evangelical anymore.

Oh, you shouldn't say that. So well, you know if TD Jake's is an evangelical leader I am NOT a part of any movement of which he is a part. So How how can this word any longer have much in the way of meaning and So One of the articles was by Mark Dever and I really appreciated I really appreciated recently I've been listening to some stuff from Capitol Hill A Baptist Church and and so I appreciated what Mark Dever had to say in an article in Christianity Decay Christianity Today and Hey, that's even what Marie said she's what I said Christianity Decay Sometimes Churchianity Today, whatever, you know Hey, it reflects the degradation of its audience.

Okay, that's just all there is to it the publisher is the same, you know, the major publishers used to have some sort of a Doctrinal standard they don't anymore. If it'll sell it'll be get published and that's just the way it is and so Mark Dever had an article and it says Christians have understood the Bible's abundant atonement language and imagery by means of various theories Jay Packer in his classic 1973 lecture the logic of penal substitution.

What did the cross achieve? Outlined three sets of theories or visions each vision sees humanity's main problem differently and each theory explains how Christ Death solves that problem. Let me just stop there to say that's a Very important insight to keep in mind.

Is that your view of atonement? Will very much correlate with your view of the problem of man and if you have a man-centered Understanding of the gospel to where well man has these felt needs man needs this or needs to experience that or whatever then It's not overly shocking that you're gonna find people who will modify and edit the atonement.

To.

Focus upon and to be consistent with that particular. That particular concept. And so if you don't have a biblical doctrine of man's sin, and if one thing is clear. Post-modernism is not overly Good at producing Orthodox views of sin.

Okay, modern man wants to wants to minimize the effect of sin as much as possible. And once you have a church that is simply shot through with humanism. Shot through with a non-christian worldview a non-biblical understanding of man shouldn't be surprising that church then begins to entertain all sorts of unbiblical notions of atonement and.

So if you have an unbiblical view of nature of man and the nature of sin and of God. Then your view of atonement has to fit with those particular aspects. So I continue on the first set of theories argues that humanity's main problem is that we are trapped and oppressed by spiritual forces beyond our control.

Christ's death then is seen as a ransom that frees us from captivity his death and resurrection. Defeats the evil spiritual forces. These theories are generally summarized under the heading of ransom theory or Christus victor Christ the victor.

The second set of theories deals with the subjective need of all people to know God's love for us. These theories emphasize that Christ's death on the cross Demonstrates God's love so dramatically that we are convinced of his love and are now able to share it with others.

This set includes the moral influence theory of Abelard among others, and I would put the Arminian governmental theory in that context as well. Quote a third a continuous quote. A third set of theories assumes that our main problem is God's righteous wrath against us for our sinfulness.

Which puts us in danger of eternal punishment? These theories argue that Christ's perfect sacrifice for our sins is necessary to satisfy God's righteousness. Christ's death bore a divine penalty that we deserved by taking our penalty upon himself.

God satisfied his own correct and good wrath against us. Theories in this set such as the satisfaction theory and the penal substitution theory. Emphasize how Christ represents us. The new wave of criticism has targeted this last set of theories.

Especially the view that Christ of Christ as a penal substitute a theory long central for most Protestant groups, especially Evangelicals the criticism follows a path laid out by others throughout history from Abelard Sosinius and Schleiermacher to CH Dodd all big names.

I was at Fuller that's for sure in 1955 English Methodist theologian Vincent Taylor noted quote the clearly marked tendency to reject theories of substitutionary punishment and quote. Roman Catholic dissenters have turned from emphasizing the cultic rituals of sacrifice to the ethics of imitating Christ's sacrifice in Lutheran circles.

Gustav Allen's Christus Victor 1931 led the charge to replace a Substitutionary understanding of the atonement with what he called the classical Understanding Christ as liberating us from spiritual forces who have enslaved us.

Then he goes on Subtitle hearing the critics. Critics past and present usually raise four main objections to substitutionary atonement number one not enough. Many current mainline Christians such as William Plocker Christ takes our place and Peter Schmeichen of His book saving power Erdman's 2005 say penal substitution is at best inadequate.

They say the true focus of atonement doctrine lies beyond achieving forgiveness. For example Stephen Finland represents the stream of Christian thought following Abelard and Schleiermacher that stresses the incarnation rather than any particular understanding of the atonement.

In his dissertation the backgrounds and content of Paul's cultic atonement metaphors Published by Brill in 2004. In his book problems the atonement liturgical press 2005 He sees the whole framework of satisfaction as medieval coming to us not from Paul.

But from Anselm. Finland acknowledges that sacrifice and scapegoat our images rooted in the Old Testament Images that Paul and the writer of Hebrews use but he says only later Theologizing led Christians to theorize about the atonement.

In the end Finland concludes that Christians should realize that the atonement is secondary to the incarnation. He argues that we should think about the atonement as theosis as growing and godlike Spirituality and conduct thus sharing the life of God for those of you Not familiar with this that is an Eastern Orthodox concept.

Which never goes on to note when he says the Eastern Orthodox have long accepted theosis is the main result of Christ's death. Reflecting on 2nd Corinthians 318 Ephesians 413 and 2nd Peter 1 4 and Other passages many have suggested that God's work in us through Christ is best understood by not by language of penalty payment ransom and satisfaction but by language of love inclusion growth and deification.

Seen this way the church becomes an extension of the incarnation of God in Christ and biblical Images the church as the body of Christ take on a more realistic hue. The second area of critics Basically say it's irrelevant.

Other critics concerned with clearly communicating the gospel. I'm not sure how you could even separate this out from the gospel. But anyways with clearly communicating the gospel charge that substitution does not make sense to modern cultures.

Does not mesh with most of what is in the Gospels and glorifies unforgiving abusive behavior. Joel green and Mark Baker in recovering the scandal across intervarsity press 2000 say quote. We believe the popular fascination with and commitment to penal Substitutionary atonement has had ill effects in the life of the church in the United States and has little to offer the global church in Mission by way of understanding or embodying the message of Jesus Christ and quote.

Such critics argue that modern cultures which are far removed from religions that offer blood sacrifices Find substitutionary theory irrelevant and distasteful. Third Individualistic. Green and Baker also argued that penal substitution has encouraged Individualism because it seems to focus on individual guilt and forgiveness as such say these critics.

It has blinded the church to social issues like materialism racism and nationalism. British scholar James DG Dunn has argued quote. Substitution smacks too much of individualism to represent Paul's thought adequately and quote.

Number four too violent. Perhaps the most powerful criticism of penal substitution has come from a swelling chorus of scholars who decry its violence. Inspired by French scholar Rene Girard many modern theologians have denied the need for divine violence as part of redemption.

They reject God's apparent double standard in doing what he forbids others to do take life. Then there is a discussion about Roman Catholics. Well Roman Catholics, I'll go ahead and read it. Roman Catholic has debated this last point for 30 years.

But only recently has this concern penetrate evangelicalism steeped as it is in the substitution rich language of Watts and Wesley's hymns. Some evangelicals have taken to the work of Anthony Bartlett J Denny Weaver Stephen Chalk and Alan Mann Who decried language of violence and substitutionary atonement.

Two years after publishing his controversial book the lost message of Jesus is on driven? 2004 Chalk wrote quote. The church's inability to shake off the great distortion of God contained in the theory of penal substitution.

With its inbuilt an inbuilt belief in retribution and the redemptive power of violence has cost us dearly end quote. Chalk and others say that substitution at worst produces a twisted justification of violence and encourages selfish individualistic abuses of power.

I step out of the quote just long enough to note the chalk in essence identified the substitutionary theory of atonement as Divine child abuse in that book that was mentioned earlier Green and Baker warning and suggesting that God the Father did something to God the Son in popular church discourse sermon.

Illustrations on Christ's sacrifice and the cross have fueled complaints about substitution. Then there is given a really gross example. For example, there is a story of the railroad operator who learns the bridge ahead is out.

So he prepares to switch the tracks to save the lives of hundreds on a fast approaching train. But that moment he sees his son playing in the gears and he pauses to reconsider. Here many a preacher has meditated on God's love in ways that border on the grotesque.

We're told that the man decided to go ahead and sacrifice his son's life in order to save those on the train. Such an unwitting sacrifice is led to the charge of the atonement is divine child abuse. And of course anyone who thinks that's even semi close to what the New Testament presents as to the atonement Well needs to be doing a whole lot more.

Studying of the atonement goes on and and discusses Quite properly some of the various texts that need to be examined in regards to the fact that well it's the New Testament that raises these issues. The New Testament that uses this language of substitution and the real question is how in the world do you deal with the New Testament and and Not accept the New Testament teaches concerning the atonement of Christ.

One thing that is very very very sadly clear to me is that the vast majority of those who are raising these issues do not believe that the New Testament presents any kind of of divinely revealed truth and Because this has become so widely accepted across all boundaries in in scholarship today in the in the Academy.

Then it has become the predominant viewpoint of most of those who are writing today. That's why I have said that so when you go in the Christian book store Realize you are in probably one of the most dangerous places for your soul in all the world because While you may think That you're in a place where you can sort of let down your guard in essence.

What you need to realize is that as you walk down those aisles? there are coiled snakes upon every bookshelf waiting to strike at you and to infect you with all sorts of nasty bugs and Part of that is because so much of what is published today is written by people who simply don't believe that God has spoken with Clarity they don't believe the promises of Scripture.

They don't believe in in the supernatural revelation of Scripture. They don't believe the scriptures consistent with itself. They don't believe you can establish a systematic theology. They don't believe any of these things.

They don't believe that you can exegete the text of Scripture and come to any kind of knowledge of what? Paul or James or or Isaiah or anybody else actually meant they have imbibed a form of radical skepticism.

That leaves them unable to say thus saith the Lord about anything In in any way shape or form and yet they continue to write. I don't know why if I was convinced that God had not spoken. I wouldn't bother writing anything anymore.

Why why do so just eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die and but that's not what they do and So so much of what is out there now published by the you know intervarsity press Erdman's Baker doesn't matter.

They you know, it doesn't matter how heretical it is. They'll they'll publish it today. And it's sitting there on your Christian bookshelf. And how are you supposed to know you used to be able to sort of tell you can't tell any longer whether it is spiritual poison or not.

So.

Mark Dever continues many critics of substitution get around this problem. That such language and imagery is found everywhere in the Bible by downplaying its importance or reinterpreting it in ways I believe do violence the plain meaning of the text.

Yeah problem is for most of these people there is no plain meaning of the text and as a matter if you do violence the plain meaning of text because it's not inspired in the first place and. So once you have imbibed the majority viewpoint of the Academy today that Paul contradicts Paul that's that the corpus of Pauline writings is much smaller than we always thought it was and therefore you can just sort of dismiss for second Timothy and Titus is irrelevant and and.

And things like that and and of course everybody knows that you can't Interpret Paul in such a way. He'd be consistent with Peter and. You can't there's there's no consistent interpretation. You don't allow scripture to interpret scripture.

That's that's only how how the old folks did it. We are much more enlightened than they and and look where it's gotten us look how good the church is doing. Because of all that you. You look at these things and Scott McKnight for example has put out a book called Jesus and his death Baylor 2005 and He says.

Scott McKnight for example in his recent book does lots of careful work with the gospel text nonetheless He assumes the last phrase in Mark 10 45 which reads for even the Son of Man did not come to be served.

But to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many reports not Jesus original words. But marks theologizing and while admitting that the idea of substitution is strongly suggested here. He finally rejects it now.

I think we just need to stop there because what happens in in much of academia today is. Here's here's how you're supposed to approach something like Scott McKnight's book. You're supposed to talk about how very scholarly Scott McKnight is and you're supposed to talk about how many References and and how much good stuff you got out of Scott McKnight's book.

And then if you happen to disagree with some things then you raise those issues but only after. You have in essence sort of done what? What you had to do back during the days of the Roman Empire. You had to offer your pinch of incense upon the altar and say Kaiser Kourios here you say academia Kourios.

You know I've paid my dues and all this is this man's a great scholar. But the problem is if if he doesn't actually believe that we can know what GSN We didn't say and what's inspiring what isn't inspired or doesn't believe these things are consistent with one another.

Then is he really? Supposed to be a leader in the church. Well at least in a sound biblical church. I don't think so. So why would we offer the pinch upon the altar first? Why don't you start saying you know there's some really dangerous things here, there's some false things here.

Here's where they are and Then you can later say now you know it's shame because he placed obviously spent a whole lot of time on this and and Over here did some good work on this thing but why do you have to start with the with the idea that in essence helps to to tell everybody and to encourage everybody to believe.

That all religious opinions are equal to all other religious opinions or more so as long as you have a certain Pedigree you've you've paid for this degree from such-and-such school, and you've got the you know the big stamp on your forehead.

That means you know. Even if you're promoting heresy. It's okay because it's in the context of the Academy and all things are okay within the context Academy this is what happens when the Academy can something exists outside of the context of the church and When those in the Academy think that they are the wise leaders of the benighted Church.

This is really where things get bad and so. This is this is not an interpretation. That is driven by the text and in overriding belief in the consistency of the text and divine nature of the text once you don't have those things then.

You're you're you're doomed to this this never-ending cycle of personal subjective opinions as to what you're gonna give the most weight to and not give the way a Certain weight to and blah blah blah you you're stuck with that there.

You've got no place to go if you don't believe that God has spoken with clarity, and I'm sorry. But there's one thing that is not really beyond. It's not possible to argue this. And that is the New Testament writers believe that God had spoken and spoken with clarity.

The Apostle Paul believed the Gospels noble the Apostle Paul believed that everybody knew what the gospel was and therefore you could have true Gospels and false Gospels true brothers and false brothers and The Apostle John promised in 2nd John that the truth would abide with us always and so they certainly believe these things.

But few there be today who walk in their shoes unfortunately and. So we have him just basically saying well Yeah, I was to give his life ransom for many that sounds like substitution, but I don't like it.

That's just mark theologizing and since he's theologizing you know and when we hear someone like John John Shelby Spong Doing that we all go. We hear Barry Lynn saying Galatians is over the top ago. But as long as they're teaching someplace It's supposed to be somewhat conservative, and they got that foot at the end of their name.

That's PhD foot then. Well they just get away with it. That's it. That's fine. That's cool. We can't say anything about it because you know that's the scholarship see and that's how it goes. I Continue reading further.

McKnight uses Christ's words To interpret atonement passages in Paul Peter and Hebrews even though the epistles provide the most sustained Discussions of Christ's atonement in other words his understanding of Christ's perspective becomes the lens through which they're everything else to be read.

He again acknowledges that such passages might carry along with them the notions of penal substitution satisfaction. But in the end he says they need not that is the academic weasel way of saying yeah.

It's there about like it. So I'll just say it does not necessarily need to mean that. Thus he goes to what seems to be great lengths to avoid the plain meanings these passages at one point He says that Jesus is both representative and substitute.

But his interpretation so transforms the idea of substitute as to rob it of its traditional theological meaning. Stephen Finland also seems to pit one portion of scripture against another. He writes in problems with atonement.

It is a mistake to identify atonement as the central Christian doctrine. Listen to this. This is one of the reasons I decided to address this in the program today. It is a mistake to identify Atonement as the central Christian doctrine although it is central to the Pauline tradition.

To first Peter Hebrews first John a revelation, but these books in their entirety compose only 39 of the New Testament. So in other words since the Gospels are much longer and there's four of them you determine what's central to the New Testament by percentage of which tradition represents what based on bulk words.

I Mean I certainly wouldn't agree with with the dismissal from the gospel text of this emphasis. Anyway, but this isn't how you determine scriptural teaching. He never goes on to say even if one were to grant Finland's premise.

Which I certainly don't. 39 of the New Testament can hardly be swept away or ignored. For those of us who maintain the Apostles writings bear equal authority Jesus words in the Gospels and that they are themselves inspired by the Spirit of Jesus.

Substitutionary sin-bearing language must be accepted as the dominant atonement metaphor in the Bible and he goes on from there if you do a search on the the title of in the Christianity Today article here is nothing but the blood if you want to track that down for yourself.

It was posted actually all the way back in May of 2006. So it's not exactly brand-new breaking news, but it does I think help us to once again recognize that there is there's a lot of Stuff going on that's quite simply.

It's very troubling very troubling indeed and it might help to explain to you Why it is that you can turn on the television and turn on the radio and hear such anemic proclamation. But when people are coming out of seminaries filled with anemic professors who refuse to Preach the whole counsel of God and teach the whole counsel of God.

Well, then they're what do you expect? That's that's what's going to happen in in many ways today. When I see somebody going in the seminary, I I pray for their survival. It shouldn't be that way. It should be oh man a wonderful opportunity to grow and to mature and to gain the tools you need.

But for the vast majority of folks Conservative Bible believing Christians who go into seminary it is going to war. I Mean it honestly it has the same parallel as sends sending somebody off to Iraq today.

You are you are just as much in spiritual danger. In almost every single modern seminary today as the soldier in Iraq. And that's a sad thing. That's a sad commentary, but I've seen it. I saw people back when I was a seminary years ago.

They came in they were pretty solid. They seem to know what they believe. They're actively involved and by the time they got their master's degree in theology. They now had a master's degree in confusion.

They no longer knew what they believed and they they were there couldn't couldn't answer any clear questions any longer about about the nature of of the gospel and so. So why so why don't why don't we do that anymore?

Why why I mean you're in there working on on the shopping cart or something? I can tell you're not even listening to me. I know this I listen later. Yeah, I can tell you're sitting there tapping. I've been Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so you don't even we don't even like I mean people miss the pulpit crimes commercial and stuff, you know.

You know thing. Well, we can run it. But we're planning on making a change to that format so that it's a end-to-end program and it's uninterrupted.

What if I want to like take a drink or something? Well, I I guess we could do something. And who did you talk with about the the format change? Nobody. Oh, okay. So I don't get get talked about that was a benevolent dictatorial decision except.

I'm the benevolent dictator. So We might want to. I mean I can just sit here and stop talking For a minute and then you're left with nothing to do. So that wouldn't really sound very good either. So Let's have to have a little discussion about this in the future.

There you go this. Thanks, really appreciate that Man turn that thing off. Man I'll tell you They stick me in here lock the door and just crack the whip just get it done. Mr Get you know, just just do your work and quit complaining.

Okay. All right, let's we we're gonna we have Shabbir Ali we have Bible answer man broadcast and We also have a phone caller right now. So let's go ahead and take the phone call and talk with Eric real quick.

The New Covenant and Baptism in Hebrews 8

Hi Eric. Doing good.

Yeah, I was calling. You debate with Shabbir Ali.

Don't just go on and not much of a parallel there. Then they their last names both start with SH. That's the only connection between the two.

I do agree with you on the on your side of the debate on the pseudo-baptism Excuse me a pedo-baptism, but what I disagree with you on is your interpretation of what the new covenant is.

I.

You had said in your Statement on YouTube video. I didn't get to see the whole video, but That the old covenant is a mixed covenant and that that anyone who tries to put the new covenant in the future Is not doing so for a contextual and exegetical reason.

Well, you know, you know what the background of that is. I believe so. Yes.

And.

Well that the you know, the referring the covenants made Israel and how to do that that that has not happened yet.

I believe well, yeah, there are there are pedo-baptists. In fact in in the book that was promoted at at the debate the Strawbridge edited volume There are a number of different views on this actually there is it probably at least three I would say Contradictory views of what the new covenant actually is and its relevance to baptism within that one book which is I think one of the problems but one of the Presentations of it and I had heard pastor Shishko make similar comments in his About two dozen part series on baptism that I had listened to was in essence that the new covenant is not yet fully Established in its practice in the idea that yes someday they will all know me but That's that's yet future That's not that's not now and my assertion was that according to Hebrews chapter 8 where the writer is providing an apologetic for the new covenant and For the defense of the new covenant and supremacy of Christ in being the mediator of that better covenant based upon better promises of the better mediator, etc, etc Would be basically ripped out of the text if what was actually being said in Hebrews chapter 8 is someday it will It's gonna be thousands year down the road.

But someday this covenant will be better than the covenant that you are being called back to in the temple sacrifices and that this is the context of the book of Hebrews is demonstration supremacy of Christ and supremacy of his work and that there's nothing to go back to in essence is what the rare to the Hebrews is Demonstrating and so that was context of what I was saying and likewise the mixed statement.

Again you're only looking at a portion of it. It'd probably be a whole lot better to actually watch the whole debate than just maybe the 20 of it that's been posted on YouTube, but In that context what I was referring to is the difference between the old covenant where the covenant signs are given on the basis of genetic relationship and hence you have the same covenant sign being given to David that you have being given to Ahab and One of the interesting things in cross-examination is that pastor Shishko didn't not feel that That Ahab should have been given the covenant signs and that it should have been covenant discipline that took place there.

But most pedobaptists that I know of don't argue that way. They would say that Ahab was appropriately given that covenant sign and therefore having broken the covenant is held Held accountable for having broken it the point being it was a mixed covenant.

That is the covenant signs are given To men like David who have that inward reality as well as to Ahab and others that Clearly do not have that inward reality and that one of the differences Between the new covenant in Hebrews chapter 8 and that of the old is exactly that that the emphasis is made They shall all know you from Jeremiah 31 and That there is there is no mixture that is that is presented in Hebrews chapter 8.

Right, but well, this is where I come from. I come from all that then from the Messianic perspective and the fact that the all that's referring to that Jeremiah is referring to you is referring to all of Israel.

Well, that's not how that. It doesn't matter what background you come from the text is the text and the application made in Hebrews chapter 8 Does not allow for the limitation to ethnic Israel or anything of the kind in fact.

That would be the single best way to defeat the apologetic argument of the writer would be to make an ethnic application. Which. And who is and who is and and who is. Excuse me and who is who is the true circumcision today, sir?

Okay, that's the church, right.

I also am Calvin's myself but what I'm saying is that that the fullness of the new covenant has not come until all of Israel was baked and So that future time, but we as believers as part of the elect experience the ramification of the new covenant as first root of Israel.