Powerful Conversation with a Thoughtful Mormon

Apologia Utah

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You know, we believe in the one that died for our sins and through him that we're saved. Is he

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Lucifer's brother or is he the creator of Lucifer? According to what you believe.

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Well, aren't we all children of God? No. No? I'm afraid I can't agree with that.

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Okay. Well, if you're open to listening for a minute, I can explain why we're not all children of God. Go ahead.

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Okay. So, I'm familiar with Mormonism's plan of salvation, plan of happiness, and pre -existence, and all that.

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I'm just generally familiar with the subject matter. So, the main reason why, as evangelical

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Christians, we would say that we are not all literally children of God. Number one is that God doesn't have a wife.

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Jesus and Lucifer are not literal brothers. There wasn't a pre -existence with all the pre -existent spirits in the heavens.

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So, the purpose of coming to this earth is not based on a pre -existence, a mortal probation, an eventual execution.

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So, what else would you say would be common joint errors with Christ? Well, that's a leap from one subject to another.

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The short answer, though, being a joint error with Christ is being reconciled to God and being what's called justified.

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And being justified is where you're legally recognized as being innocent of your sin.

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Because what Scripture says is that God will judge the guilty. It is appointed to man to live once, and then after this is the judgment.

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So, from beginning to end, Mormonism and Christianity, they have different starting points. So, all the steps that come after the starting point, even the conclusion of eternal destiny, it's totally different.

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So, getting back to why we're not all children of God, because we're not literal descendants in terms of life, that's a good way to put it.

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Like God in embryo, God in potential. The Bible doesn't teach that we can become like God, and it doesn't teach that God...

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If that's on the first page, God made man in his own image. Father, son, and spirit. It doesn't say heavenly father and marvelous wife.

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It doesn't say that, does it? Well, I mean... You know, well, he said that he made us in his own image, and so, you know, if he made

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Adam and Eve, it seems to me to indicate... Another thing, too, is if you look in Genesis, the word he uses is elohim, which is

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God's program. And so, you know, I mean, if he's making us in his own image and he's talking about An heir is someone who inherits what the father has.

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And, you know, I... I'm sorry, I don't mean to bring... I know you guys are out to do good things, and I...

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I'm having a hard time seeing... All right, take your time.

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No, I was a missionary at one point, and so I just... Where'd you go if you don't mind me asking?

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I went to England, so it just seems to me... I don't know, I just... Camping outside the temple is just...

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I'm having a little bit of a hard time with that. It seems like they're out to catch us. Well, so let me ask you something about that.

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I know Christ preached in the temple, and I know that's probably what's going through your mind. But also, you guys come to our houses, right?

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We're not in the church building, we're out here. But, in all fairness, we have had people stand on the sidewalk.

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It's okay, it's uncommon, right? But the point is that we're not out here to, like...

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Harass you, or to... Come to the temple, hey, come talk to us.

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We literally want to just have a conversation. Or hand them a piece of paper, and that's it. We're both

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Christians. I would disagree with you. Well... But let me tell you why. Just so that you understand where I'm coming from.

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Because I can understand why that would be offensive and inflammatory if I don't qualify it first.

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Is that fair? That's fair, but I... Okay, so let me qualify that just real quick. I've alluded to it a little bit already.

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But, according to the Bible, in John 1, verses 1 -3 and Colossians 1. It says that Jesus is the creator of everything that ever came into being.

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Everything. Whether visible or invisible, principalities or powers, people, spirits, literally everything.

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Categorically. Jesus created it all because he's eternally God. But, according to Mormonism, what justifies that is that Jesus was not always

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God. He's the offspring of Elohim, one of his wives, Archon, the brother. And he's the brother of Lucifer.

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So, immediately, we use the same word. We both say Jesus. But, there's a prologue that's added to the identity of who

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Jesus is. And that fundamentally changes who he is. Does that make sense?

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Yeah, I mean, but don't you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of the father, too? I mean, John 3, 16. I mean, it's kind of difficult to argue, but...

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So, where I would agree, I would say I affirm what the verse says. Where we differ is the usage of the word son.

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I don't understand that to be teaching a literal parentage as in, like, father -son.

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Like, I have a daughter, right? So, when I say she's my daughter... Which version of the

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Bible? If you don't mind me asking, are you King James? I have NASB. We have no problem with King James.

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It's just the one I had in my car. I pull it out every time I come here, so... We have King James. On my phone, I have King James NASB.

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The word that King James version uses... You might have to call me on this, but I believe the word is begotten. Huh? And that...

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So, you know what begotten means in the original language on this period? No, begotten is just parentage.

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Okay. It's actually a title. It's not speaking of parenting. It's a title.

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What it is in the Greek is monogamous theos. He's the unique and one of a kind.

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It is a title reserved only for Jesus Christ. That's why we call him the begotten.

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No one else qualifies. Because he's unique, right? There's not more than one

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Jesus. Can we agree on that? Yeah. So, there's only one Jesus, as the

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Bible teaches him. What it teaches about him is that he's not our big brother. That's why we would say fundamentally...

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That's like the number one issue of why when a faithful Mormon such as yourself...

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I would have to say lovingly that I couldn't break bread with you as a brother in Christ. Because what you profess about him is different.

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Does that make sense? Well, if you can't break bread with me... I mean, Christ broke bread with the Republicans in the center. I think we're maybe talking about communion here.

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I mean in terms of like a spiritual one. That's what I'm talking about. It doesn't mean that I can't love you as a person and be like,

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Hey, let's go get lunch and talk about stuff. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that I couldn't identify with you as us being on the same page spiritually.

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Yes, we are both Christians. We both have the same central, same God, same Jesus, same

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God. Does that make sense? So, we've come out here because we love our

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Mormon neighbors. And we just want to talk about the differences and say, This is why we're so long -standing.

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Because we have God's revelation, and Joseph Smith comes along maybe 100 years later, and he adds things, and he changes teachings that were already clearly established in the

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Bible. And he says, it's not this, it's that. So, as an example, the Bible says,

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Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Joseph Smith taught that there were gods before God, and that he would become one.

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So, what we say as Christians who are concerned, we say, This is clearly a contradiction. This is clearly evidence that he was not speaking in agreement with God's word.

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Rather, he was contradicting it. So, in Deuteronomy 13, it says about prophets.

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God gives a test to his people, which is really great. And he says, here's how you know for sure. If the prophet does not speak according to the law and the testimony, that is, previous revelation is revealed in Scripture, even if they have signs and wonders, so, maybe we think of that as good faith.

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Maybe everything looks legit. Maybe they even have miracles. If they teach other gods, if they say,

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Come, follow after other gods which you have not known, then you know they're a false prophet.

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And then it goes on to say, don't listen to them. And it also says, the Lord your

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God is testing to know whether or not you love him with all your mind, mind, and heart. So, the question that I would have for you, sir, is, how do you know that you're obeying that commandment right now by affirming

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Joseph's message? And I'm assuming you would. Am I wrong in my assessment? Okay.

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So, would you say that you're fulfilling that commandment? Maybe because Joseph taught a different idea about who

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God is? And just, he's the different Jesuses. If that helps clarify.

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Oh, no! Well, to us, there is one God. He's not our

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Father who we worship. But? But is he one God among many gods?

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Like, is there more than one being? Oh, Genesis would say so.

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So, is it one or is it three? I feel like we're getting tripped up on something.

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Well, so you say one God, but... Well, we worship one God through the psalm. We worship

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God the Father through the psalm. Sure, but you acknowledge that at least one God can exist, but there is more than one

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God in existence, correct? Right. Okay. So, it's not one God, it's that there's three gods, but you choose to focus on one, correct?

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Well, it's not really the way we think. We think about worshiping the Father, we need Christ to tell us to do it, and then we need the guidance of the

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Holy Ghost to know what's true. But you wouldn't worship the Holy Ghost or Jesus, right? Because they're not the

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God of focus. The Father is the God of focus, right? Yeah. Okay. So, what we would say about that is that Mormonism is polytheistic in that they acknowledge there's more than one

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God. We believe the Bible is strictly monotheistic and consistently teaches that there's only one

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God right now. Only one. So, if there's more than one, that means that the professor of the polytheism is not monotheistic and therefore can't be

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Christian. Because what God says about himself is that, I alone am God, there is no other.

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Does that make sense? So, could you see why, you know, as a Christian we would say, we're a little concerned about that.

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Because, I hear what you're saying, we only pray to the Father, we only worship him, he's the only

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God of this earth with whom we have to do. But, this is where the identity was changed by Joseph, where he says instead of a triune

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God or a Trinitarian being, three in one, they're unitary in that the Father, the

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Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings, which makes it tri -theism or polytheism.

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Would you have an issue with that, considering when Jesus was baptized, they were all three there? Yeah, absolutely.

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But, we don't have an issue with Jesus' baptism because we believe what the Bible teaches consistently is that there's one

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God and that he's revealed through the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. But, we believe there is one who, or one what,

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God, three who's, Father, Son, Spirit. What Joseph said is there's three who's and three what's.

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God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. That's what he taught.

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In the King Paul discourse, he said, you know, according to sectarianism, they're all to be crammed into one God. It would be a giant, it would be a monster.

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I say that's a strange God anyhow. Here, then, is the truth that they're separate.

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Then, he also says God was once a man like us and he learned how to become God and you have to do the same thing.

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That's a different message than what God testified about himself in Isaiah. In Isaiah 43,

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I quoted it earlier where he says, For me there was no God and neither shall there be after me.

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What Joseph said contradicts that, right? Or am I missing something?

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Feel free to correct me if I'm overlooking something. No, I mean, let's talk a little bit about the oneness because there's a scripture in the

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Bible. Christ is kind of talking a little bit about how...

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Let's see if I can find it, sorry. I remember a little bit of the phrase. No problem. While you're looking at that, when you say oneness, what do you mean by that?

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Well, Christ was talking to his apostles and I'm going to see if I can't find it, but what he essentially said is, let my apostles be one as we are one.

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He meant unity and purpose. John 17? Yeah, he's thinking of John 17. Yeah, so in John 17, that's...

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I'm not sure. Maybe you can help me. What are you looking to establish there?

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Well, it talks about the kind of unity that exists. Yeah, so verse 11, and this is

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NASB, so I'm just, you know, I am no longer in the world and yet they themselves are in the world, right?

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And I come to you, Holy Father, keep them in your name. The name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.

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All right, well, he didn't talk about the apostles being indistinguishable. They're still separate people. They're united in purpose. Right, but it would be improper to somehow associate that as some sort of declaration about the nature of human beings.

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That's not what it's talking about. It's not a comparison of the

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Godhead versus the church because Christ is the head of the church. So the unity of the church in context is going to be

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Christ, the head of the church, and then his bride, the church having unity in that way and being known by their

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Savior in that way. It's not talking about like the sort of oneness where they're one in purpose but they're distinguished.

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God made creation, human beings, to be very different from the Creator. He doesn't have a wife in heaven.

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He is not a man. I understand where you're coming from, but to me that kind of contradicts with God made man in his own image.

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You know, if you call your kid after your own image, it's because they eventually have the potential to be like you. You see God, the

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Father, the Holy Ghost, and Jesus Christ, all present in his baptism. We have the indication there that they intend for the apostles to be united in purpose, but they're not going to become indistinguishable.

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I don't know what the equivalent would be for the 12. I'm afraid

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I'm a Mormon through and through. So, you know, going back to Genesis, it doesn't indicate anywhere in the text that God made us to be like us.

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Because you used the phrase, he made us in his own image. I'm wondering, do you know what the historic

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Christian understanding of that is? If I asked you, could you tell me what a Christian believes about that, what would you say?

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I'm not well versed on what everybody else would think about it. Okay, so, if it's alright, let me just explain that real quick.

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We don't understand that to mean like a literal progeny, right? It's not a posterity kind of thing, right?

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It's not father, son, and so on and so forth. What we understand the image of God or the

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Imago Dei in Latin to be is that God has what are called communicable attributes.

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So things like logic, reason, love, morals, ethics, beauty, rationality, all those kinds of things, they reflect the thinking, mind, creativity of God, and he has bestowed those things upon his creation.

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So, in that way, mankind is the crown jewel of creation because the other creatures on the planet, they don't have minds and intellects and immaterial spirits like we do.

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We're unique in that way because God created us to have relationships. That's our purpose.

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We were created to enjoy God and glorify him forever. That was the purpose of creation.

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So, when the Bible teaches that God made us in his own image, that's what it's talking about. Now, there are certain things, what we call non -communicable attributes, so things like omniscience or being all -powerful, omnipresence, being everywhere, all simultaneously.

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We don't possess that because we're not God. So, there's a distinction there of some things that are communicable to creation because we live in God's world.

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So, naturally, the rules of the game, so to speak, are set and limited by God and his creation.

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Does that make sense? That's kind of one of the things that I guess we would struggle with.

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There's nowhere in Scripture, and obviously there was a lot of theology there, but there's a lot of history that comes with that interpretation, and we would say it's consistent with the entirety of Scripture.

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There's nowhere in Scripture where it says we're going to receive these incommunicable attributes that only

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God alone possesses, all -knowing, being omnipresent, all places at once.

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These aren't things that Jesus promises to the disciples. These aren't things that God promises to the prophets in any way.

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It's not something that is a gift to the Holy Spirit that we receive. We receive other things, but there's nowhere where it says that we're going to have all of those

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God -like attributes one day in Scripture. That's kind of, I guess, where we do struggle. I think, at the end of the day, from a personable standpoint, a lot of people do like to focus on similarities to be able to relate to one another, and I think, at the end of the day, you actually are able to understand where you stand better when you figure out where you differ with people.

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And I think, in this instance, I think understanding where we're coming from and where you're coming from, really focusing on those differences to see where we're at and then look at what is

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Scripture, what does it say about how we should relate to our God, that's going to be the standard we go to.

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And so, I guess, yeah, that would be a struggle for how we relate that. Do you see anywhere in Scripture where we're going to receive those

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God -like attributes of omnipresent, all -knowing, anywhere in God's Word?

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Not really beyond what I've just mentioned. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, well, would you say that you know a little more than maybe what you did at the start of the conversation in terms of maybe just putting some of the differences aside?

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No, I mean, sorry, I don't mean to be antagonistic. You're not. You're actually really nice, so please don't think that we didn't think that.

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You're probably the least antagonistic Mormon I've talked about. Seriously.

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I had someone swear at me last week. He said he was a Mormon. Well, Christ's Church had you to say that, so if we don't live up to our ideals,

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I apologize about that. But the one thing, you know, we would want to leave you with,

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I would really encourage you to take this and think about it, because another area that we differ is on grace.

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And not only is the identity of Jesus important, but how we come to know Jesus is equally important.

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And in Mormonism, there's a different understanding of grace. So, in the Christian view, and I say

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Christian, I mean evangelical Christian, just to be clear. In Christianity, what we teach about grace or how to be right with God, it's not that the atonement makes us savable, and then we have to be obedient to the laws and ordinances of the gospel in order to receive.

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We don't believe the Bible teaches that. What we do believe is that God does something really beautiful.

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It's called justification. Romans 5, 10, is that the scripture you guys talk in? Uh... Confess with your mouth that Jesus is

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Lord. That's Romans 10, verse 9. Confess with your mouth that Jesus is

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Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead. But going six chapters earlier, in Romans 4, there's a really beautiful passage.

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Do you have the gospel library app? Wow, you guys do know us well. Yeah, I have it on my phone too.

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It's really great for looking at verses on the fly. So, you can look at Romans 4, verses 4 and 5, if you just want to read that real quick.

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Now, to him that worketh for the Lord is not reckoning of grace, but of death. To him that worketh not, but to read about him that justifieth the ungodliness of faith, but to account it for righteousness.

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Okay. So, what do you think that means? And if you need to read it again, that's probably fine.

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Um... Five shoes. Do you know how many shoes

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I have? He gave them to me.

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I suppose it is arrogance to presume that we can, you know, save ourselves. Paul was the one who said that if we're covered by grace, should we sin?

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Or should we sin? The grace may abound. The grace may abound, yeah. Yeah, so,

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I would actually fist bump you on that. I agree with the Apostle Paul, where if we purposely take advantage of grace to do something that we sin,

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God condemns that. So, you and I would have a point of agreement there, that that is an unrighteous or a sinful thing.

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Well, I'm not insinuating that you guys take the viewpoint where you've been saved so you can do what you want. My argument to that would be is, have you really been converted if, you know, your behavior hasn't changed?

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No, that's a good question. And I think, like, looking at the whole of Scripture, because, you know, I have a conversation with my brother about this, about, like, well, what about people?

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I really thought they were saved. I think Scripture does speak to that. In 1 John, it says, you know, they went out from us because they were not really of us.

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And so, there are people that, obviously, may seem to possess grace from our perspective, but Scripture...

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Would you guys say that salvation is an instant then? Because, you know, I think it's much more of a process. I mean, you have Peter, who was with Christ for three years, but, you know, right before he was crucified, he denied

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Him three times. And so, he takes... I feel like it's a... It's never... It's all very seldom an instant.

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I mean, taking another example, David from the Old Testament, he had a fantastic start, but he, you know, he tripped up there.

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And so, I don't... I don't know if... That's a great question. I wouldn't say that salvation is a status that you, you know, you can stamp yourself on and say that I'm good to go,

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I've got it. It's more of a continual process. I know that in the church, there's, like, six definitions of salvation.

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So, could you just clarify real quick? Like, do you mean salvation in the fullest sense? Like, exaltation and all the rest?

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Is that what you mean when you say... Oh, yeah, it's a process. So, yeah. So, there's... The reason... Like, that's a good question he asks because when we say salvation, what does it mean to be saved?

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There's many ways that Scripture speaks about that, and there's many words in the original language to sort of parse that out, right?

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So, you have justification, sanctification, and you have glorification. Those are three big things that are spoken about in Scripture.

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And all of those, Paul may use, we have been saved, we are being saved, we shall be saved.

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Those languages used, and I would say salvation encompasses all of that. The question,

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I think, that's really important is is justification something that happens at a particular moment? Do you have a particular view on that?

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Because that's where I would maybe say... Justification, can you explain that? Yeah, so justification is actually what we were just talking about a moment before.

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So, this is the NASD. This is the more modern English translation from 1995. So, in here, you know, now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but what is due, right?

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So, if you think about that like a paycheck, you earn what you get, that's your wage, right? You put in hours, your wage is not a gift.

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Conversely, but to the one who doesn't work, but believes in the hand of God who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

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So, justification in Christian theology is essentially, it's

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God covering the person in the blood of Christ and it removes their debt of sin permanently.

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So, if you think about it in financial terms, right? You have a credit card.

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You're born in sin and your balance is so hopelessly inter -negative. There is no way you can even inch your way up to pay any of it off with any of your good deeds.

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Because what the Bible says about our good works in Isaiah 64 6, it says our good works are like filthy rags to me.

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And in the Hebrew... Also, that's in our theology as well. Right, right. In the Hebrew, it actually goes a step further and it says it's like an unclean menstrual cloth.

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Or you could think of it as a dirty tampon. That's how God regards our... And I say our as in you and I fellow, you know, brothers of men.

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He regards our good works in that way. Meaning, we don't earn favor with God.

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We don't earn forgiveness. We don't earn grace. And we don't earn justification which is God basically taking the spot before the

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Father. So, Jesus stands before the Father and he says, this person is innocent because he's covered in blood.

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That's what justification is. So, we would say there's a finite point in time where when someone is justified, where they do believe the promises of Jesus in the

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Bible as they're written and they trust in God for the true forgiveness and they stop striving, they stop trying to earn favor, they stop trying to earn their way into heaven.

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But instead, what they do is they put on a parachute, right? As they're getting ready to go skydiving.

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And in this metaphor, skydiving, everyone has to take the jump because we're all going to die. So, the question is, how do we put on the

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Lord Jesus Christ? How do we have that parachute for the jump? Right? And according to Scripture, what it says is, right here, the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly.

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Who's the ungodly? Us. Right? We're not inherently godly. And people who are ungodly, they do ungodly as they sin.

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Right? And sin incurs a debt. And what it says in Romans, the wages of sin is what? Remember?

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Death. Death, right? And that's in verse 3. So, or chapter 3.

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And then in chapter 4, he talks about, you know, the wages are not credited as a favor. So, if we earn death, that doesn't mean that we earn life.

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Right? Because we're not doing anything that we're unlikely to do. So, that's why it has to be a gift.

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And in Mormonism, it's actually different. There is an emphasis on works.

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At the very least, in order to be saved, if you read my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, you have to have faith, repent, be baptized, have the laying on of hands to receive the gift of the

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Holy Ghost, and you have to keep your covenants and ordinances, and you have to endure to the end.

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Correct? Well, yeah. I mean, well, what you're... I'm going to bring up John 3 and 5 here. unless a man be born of water and of spirit, he can and know

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I as inherit the ark of the covenant of God. And so, to me, that... you ought to be baptized, right?

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So, we agree, but where we would disagree is what the purpose of baptism is. We don't believe that baptism, that the act of being baptized is what removes sin.

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What we believe right here... Well, it's not necessarily removing sin, but let's leave that aside for a moment.

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He says, unless a man be born of water and of spirit, he can and know I as inherit the... This is when he's talking to Nicodemus over here.

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It seems to me to indicate that you've got to get that done. Well, OK. Fair question. So, right here in Romans 4, verse 3,

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Paul is making the argument about Abraham, the father of the faith. He didn't have baptism. He didn't have any of those words.

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And he says, what does Scripture say? Abraham's delusion of God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

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So, getting the righteousness of God, the righteousness of Christ credited to Abraham, that comes from faith, but it's not faith and baptism, because Abraham was never baptized, was he?

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Well, the only way we could say he could is to make an argument in silence.

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In other words, to argue something that we don't see in the text, but we're assuming and inserting into it.

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I'm saying we don't really know one way or the other, and so I'm not prepared to take a side on that. Right, so...

30:18

You could look at a lot of the... I mean, John the Baptist was doing baptisms before Christ came around. A lot of the Hebrew washings are...

30:26

I know that comes from the Law of Moses, but a lot of that was symbolic preparing for the baptism that John the

30:32

Baptist was going to do and Christ was going to do it. Ceremonial cleansing and all that. There you go. It's similar.

30:39

So, I don't know... I'm not well -versed enough to, you know, figure out exactly what did or didn't happen.

30:47

So, just to be clear, we think baptism is a good thing, and we believe that those who profess faith in Christ should be baptized.

30:54

Well, I mean, how do you reconcile that? It says, born of water. So, like, that's a really good question, right?

31:00

I don't know. Are you familiar with any other interpretations of that verse? Or are you only familiar with the... that means baptism only?

31:09

I've heard other interpretations, but I can't... Have you read much of Ezekiel? I've... I think...

31:14

Are you talking... Like Ezekiel 37? Is that what you're doing? So, in Ezekiel, you see a cleansing of the heart, right?

31:22

There's a replacing the heart of stone with the heart of flesh, and there's a water cleansing of the heart that occurs under the new covenant that we see, right?

31:30

And so, the way I would interpret that verse, and I would say Craig would too, is that we don't see that speaking about water baptism, because Jesus doesn't mention it in the text.

31:38

He's talking about being born of water and the Spirit, and we would say that the water that you are born of is the cleansing that happens by the washing of the

31:47

Spirit when we become saved through the work of the Spirit in our life. And so, I understand that might be a new interpretation to you, but I always like to look at all of Scripture, right, because we should read, see

31:58

Scripture as something that is God -breathed and is consistent throughout, and in 1 Peter 3, 21, it says, corresponding to that, baptism now saves you.

32:07

So, I like to bring this up with some of my friends that do believe that baptism does save you, and looking at that one, right, if you just stop there at that verse, it says, now baptism saves you, right?

32:17

But if you keep reading, it says, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

32:27

So, the salvation that occurs is not the water in and of itself. In fact, it has nothing to do with that because Peter says it's an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection, right?

32:39

So, it's appealing to the salvation that we have because of a Christ. We're appealing to Christ. Again, that's something that's credited to us through belief in the one who justifies the ungodly, right?

32:49

Well, I guess taking a step back there, you know, before Christ came, there was the law of Moses, and as part of that as part of the repentance process, oftentimes, for certain things you have to, you know, sacrifice.

33:01

That actually doesn't save you. I mean, the sacrifice, but it was necessary because God asked us, asked the

33:08

Hebrews. We don't have to do that now because that law has been fulfilled, but I don't think it's so unfair to think that baptism might be, you know, viewed in a similar light.

33:16

Does the water save you? No, but he asked us to do it, so it's required. but according to the

33:23

Mormon doctrine, it is part of a multi -step process for the remission of sins, correct?

33:29

Well, yeah, we're baptized for it. Right, so that would be a point of difference for us because what we would say is that you don't have to be baptized to get credited with the righteousness of God.

33:40

That's like the main distinction we would make, but at the same time it's not like the main issue you know, we would want to really like kind of have a disagreement over, per se.

33:50

Does that make sense? The baptism issue is meaningful, but the most important thing is who is Christ and how do

33:56

I come to God? So, you know, going back to the grace thing in Mormonism, you have to earn the grace. Well, it's by grace that we are saved after all we can do.

34:04

I'm sure you know that's a good thing. Sure, sure. So you would say that grace then is something that we have to work towards, right?

34:09

Well, I'm saying if Christ offers you a gift, I mean, you have to, and you guys believe this on some level too,

34:15

I mean, Christ's atonement covers everything, but you have to believe in him for that to do you any good.

34:21

We have to have faith in the one who justifies the ungodly, yes. Sure, so isn't that something? Is it a work, or is it...

34:27

Not necessarily. Well, you can't manifest faith, I mean, you cannot, well, I mean, you can profess to believe in Christ, but if you do not do good things, in my mind, you do not believe in Christ, because if you believe in him, you do good things.

34:38

Yeah, we agree. So to maybe give an analogy to help clear this up, what we say is that faith is the root, not the fruit.

34:48

Right? So faith precedes the good works. So someone who has a real faith, it's going to show in the fruit that they display in their life through their works because it's there.

34:57

These things are interlinked, I mean, as you do more, you become more like Christ, and your faith in him strengthens.

35:04

You can't, you're not going to come to know Christ without doing his works. Okay, so Paul would reject that.

35:12

And based on that text that's right here, where it says, now to the one who works his wage is not credited as a favor, but what is due.

35:20

And then again, but to the one who does not work, does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

35:30

So in Mormonism, I think it's Moroni 1032, let me know if that's wrong, where it says, we have to deny ourselves of all ungodliness and then the grace is credited to us.

35:43

Do I have that right? No, he's exhorting people, I would exhort you to. But it's an if -then statement.

35:51

It says, if you deny yourselves of all ungodliness, then is his grace sufficient.

35:57

You can't receive the then until you've done the if. Right. And so that if is a requirement to get the then.

36:04

Right? Do you see why we would say we have a difference there? Because that seems like an issue for us.

36:11

Hey, remind me, what was your name again? I'm sorry, Andrew Craig. Sorry? Andrew. Jacob Craig.

36:17

Yeah. So, let me just say, I can't earn grace. I know I'm a rotten sinner in my heart.

36:23

I know I have a life that is painful in my past. I know there is no way any day out of my life that I could possibly ever deny myself of all ungodliness in word, thought, deed, and even in my emotions.

36:39

Do you think that you could do that? Well, I mean, I look at Matthew 5, 48, which says,

36:44

Be ye therefore perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect. Are we going to be able to do that on our own? No, but it's something we should strive for, and as we do that, are we not going to be rewarded by becoming more

36:54

Christ -like and an increase of faith? Good question. The answer would be no, and I'll tell you why.

37:01

The problem is, in the present, we already have sin behind us. So, if Jesus says,

37:07

Be ye therefore perfect, He's not saying, Be ye therefore perfect in the future. He's basically saying in the present,

37:14

Be ye therefore perfect. So, if perfection is the standard, it means we have to be perfect from start to finish.

37:21

So, from our past to our present to our future. Which I failed. And that's the problem. Well, we all have, but looking at the whole chapter of Matthew 5, he gives a whole bunch of, you know, if, blessed are the poor in heart.

37:31

Yeah. He gives a whole bunch of promises that are set in if -then statements. If, you know, if you're meek, you'll inherit the earth.

37:40

There's a whole bunch of other ones that I'm not able to recall. I need to study more. Yeah, you're thinking about the Gattas.

37:46

Right, but aren't those similar promises? to me, that's in the same line as Christ promising that...

37:51

It's not an if command, right? So, Christ is stating what is going to happen to the peacemakers, what is going to happen to the poor in spirit.

37:59

And the question we have to ask is, how are we able to do that? And our basis is, we believe it's going to be from the root of faith, not the fruit of faith that we work out.

38:09

Because, again, we're saved by grace, which Paul says in Romans 11, 6, which is later in the book, for if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works.

38:19

Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace. So, I always like that verse because at the end of it, that defines grace really well.

38:25

And it means you can't put works into it. But works are so important. I mean, if you read the book of Revelations, it says that...

38:33

Of course, works are really important, yeah. The book of life is going to be opened and he who doesn't do good works is not going to have a good time.

38:42

He's going to have to... Right. So, what we would say about that is in Ephesians 2, it talks about how we're saved.

38:50

In Ephesians 2, 8, 9, it says, for it is by grace you are saved through faith and not that of yourselves.

38:56

It is a gift, not the result of works so that no one can boast. And then in verse 10, it says that we were foreordained to walk in good works.

39:05

So, what that means is the good works that those who believe in Christ do, it's something that God already preplanned and foreordained and are driven by the

39:15

Spirit of God that is present in the believer. So, God gets the credit for the salvation of the person for perfecting their salvation and for even the good works that they do in His name for the true believer.

39:28

So, it's not that works are purposeless. It's not that works are something that we wake up in the morning and we have a to -do list that we check off and we pray and we need to read and we need to serve my fellow man and so on and so forth in order to obtain or maintain a good standing with God.

39:45

The Bible doesn't teach that. What it teaches is that those who have been saved by God, saved past death, but also presently, we have been saved if you're trusting in Christ and you're already justified.

39:58

What that means is you don't have to go to bed at night wondering whether or not you're worthy enough of the grace of God.

40:06

The Christian can truly say, I can declare to you Andrew, I know that the grace of God has been credited to my family and I know that if I were to die tonight, you know,

40:20

God forbid, I would be with Him. In Mormonism, however, there is a set of requirements.

40:28

Be faithful to the laws and ordinances of the gospel and the earth until the end. Keep your covenants, get married in the temple, raise a family, all that kind of stuff.

40:36

These things are required in pursuit of exaltation. Correct? Yeah. To get the highest degree of glory, the third degree, those things really are kind of required, right?

40:48

Sure. Yeah. In terms of where we stand, as Christians, we say, you know, we see that there's this huge divide here and the divide fundamentally is who is

41:00

God and how does He come to know Him? And having a proper understanding of grace is super important.

41:06

Because, like this verse, Moroni 10 .32 says, If ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love

41:13

God with all your might, mind, and strength, then is His grace sufficient. What I would say,

41:19

Andrew, is that's an impossible gospel. Nobody can control that. You know,

41:26

I don't know you that well. I would assume that you probably haven't been perfect in your life. I would assume...

41:31

Oh, really? Right. Good. I'm glad we confessed some humility because I'm a sinner too.

41:38

But I would even go so far as to say that, like, Elder Holland, I don't think he's denied himself of all ungodliness as well.

41:45

I don't think Russell A. Wilson has done it either. Well, our clergy never claimed to be perfect. Right.

41:51

But according to this, you have to deny yourselves of all ungodliness, then you get the grace.

41:59

So, the question is, how in the world is this possible? If this is true, how is it even obtainable?

42:08

Personally, I don't see a way to obtain it. Well, would you... Would you agree with the

42:13

Scripture in 1 Corinthians 10 .13? Could you tell me what it says? It says, I'm going to put you right here, but God is faithful and will not suffer you to take temptation above that you are able.

42:25

So, I'm going to... You might disagree. I'm going to interpret that to mean that God essentially does not give us temptations or commandments that we cannot fulfill.

42:32

Is that fair enough? Do you agree with that? Say that. God does not give us temptations that we can't overcome nor commandments that we cannot fulfill.

42:41

Okay. Is that fair? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I'm going to go ahead and go back to, you know, Matthew 5, verse 48, ye therefore perfect.

42:48

I don't think he's talking about now, but I think as we repent, as we draw upon, you know, the merits of Christ, eventually, maybe not in this life, but we're going to be able to be perfect eventually.

42:58

And, you know, I think that scripture, you can interpret the one in Moroni. We're not going to be, you know, if someone could, you know, do all this stuff, they'd essentially be perfect.

43:06

That might not come in this life, but God gave us the commandment to be perfect and we can get there eventually because Christ doesn't give us a possible path.

43:13

So, when you say eventually, are you talking about in the millennium or what do you mean? No, I mean, some point after this life.

43:19

I don't know why I'm going to make it to perfection. Okay. So, Alma 34 comes to mind.

43:25

When's the last time you read that? Not too long ago. Okay. It talks about the infinite and eternal atonement.

43:31

You guys take too much of an issue with that. I mean, well, God had to pay for our sins, right?

43:37

God had to pay for our sins, right? That Christ had to pay for our sins? Well, yeah. If you don't agree, well,

43:43

I think that's the bare minimum for being called a Christian. I'm just reminded of this passage in Alma 34.

43:50

I think it's super relevant to what you said. So, you can hold it and you can read it if you want.

43:57

But my understanding of reading this text... Where did you get this one? This one's older. This is a 1970s one.

44:05

It's really cool. It's my favorite edition of the Book of Mormon. I have like nine different versions.

44:12

We can talk about them later if you want. But in Alma 34, what I understand it to be teaching, and I know that Spencer W.

44:19

Kimball agrees with me, is that this life is the time to prepare. And like you were saying, the

44:26

Book of Mormon, but also, I think, the Doctrine and Covenants affirms that there is not a commandment that the Lord has given that we can't keep.

44:33

So the implication is... You'd agree with that, wouldn't you? Well... God doesn't give us commandments we can't keep?

44:39

So, I would disagree in the sense that nobody has kept all the commandments. Nobody has, but it's possible to.

44:46

No. I would say it's not possible because in James 2, verse 10, it says, for one who tries to keep the whole law, but they break any point of it, they're judged as being guilty of breaking the whole thing.

45:00

And to give you an analogy, it's kind of like throwing a window, a rock at the window of a car.

45:06

If you break it at any point, whether it's in the corner, right in the center, you've broken that window, period.

45:13

That's how God regards sin. Regardless of how small that crack is, it's broken. So... Well, there's certain...

45:20

There's gotta be degrees. I mean, murdering someone is a lot worse than, you know, accidentally hurting one of your guys' feelings or vice versa.

45:28

We would agree that certain sins are certainly more severe and have more impactful consequences immediately, like, in this life, for sure.

45:38

We would agree with that. We would also agree that, you know, there are certainly some sins that are going to warrant harsher punishment from God.

45:47

You know, like torturing someone or raping them or killing them. Like, certainly we would have a point of, you know, common ground there where God hates those things, but it also says

45:57

God hates liars, He hates schemers, He hates hypocrites, He hates the unrighteous.

46:02

So, God hates all sin. He's not partial in that He hates some sin less.

46:08

It's that He hates all sin. And if you look at Revelation 21 -8, it lists out a bunch of sins and then it says these people are going to be perishing in the eternal flame.

46:17

And lying and murder are both in that same list. And, I would agree that they're both wrong and God would agree that they're both wrong.

46:25

That's why in the Old Testament you have different punishments for different crimes. But, He pointed out that everyone in that group is going to be punished eternally in the fires.

46:35

And so, it's an important thing to consider. So, I think I can see where you're going. You're going to say that there's a darkness where no labor can be performed.

46:43

And my response to that is if you read up above a little bit there's the if we do not improve. So, there's certain things we've got to do here.

46:49

Improve in this life? Yeah. If we do not improve our time while in this life. Okay. So, what does it mean a few verses later where it says this is the final state of the wicked and Satan doth seal you in?

47:00

Well, you don't stay wicked if you repent. But, according to Mormon doctrine everyone is going to get the gospel and repent.

47:12

No, it's still your choice. God gave us agency. That is one of the very few we have choices.

47:21

So, it's not going to change. God has given us that now and forever. We're always going to have the right to choose.

47:27

And so, there are going to be some people who for one reason or another choose. I mean, I'm sure you've seen people throughout your ministry who've seen some probably tremendous things and they've decided not to follow

47:38

Christ even despite what they've seen. And, you know, I don't I don't think

47:44

God is going to force people now or then any more than He has now. Okay. So, you don't agree with Spencer W.

47:52

Kimball's take where what that says I'd have to read up what he said. I don't know what he was referencing off of. So, in the book

47:57

The Miracle of Forgiveness have you ever read it? No. Okay. So, in The Miracle of Forgiveness he does talk about Alma 34 because in that book he hammers on sin and perfection and why it's important keeping the commandments and if we repent of sin but then we go back to all of our previous sins that we committed come right back to us because we haven't abandoned them.

48:20

Right? Do you remember reading that in the book? I think so. I think I'd have to go back and reread it.

48:28

That's alright. That's alright. But also in Alma 34 he says this like because he quotes

48:35

Alma 34 in there he says this life is the time to do it. He says trying is weak you must do it.

48:44

He's a prophet right? So, would you agree with him or do you think that with the priesthood that you have that you know better than the prophets here in Revelation?

49:02

I'm having a hard time seeing what you're getting at. Okay. What I'm asking is do you have a different view than what

49:08

Kimball had that he was an oracle of the Lord according to Mormonism right?

49:13

He was a prophet he spoke with God he wrote this book but you disagree with what he said.

49:19

So, my question is on what authority do you reject Spencer W. Kimball's interpretation where he says

49:26

Alma 34 says this life is the time you don't get a chance in the next life? You'd have to read the whole book because he talks about how people always have a chance to come back.

49:40

In this life. Yes. But he doesn't affirm that for the next life.

49:47

I'd have to go through and read the book. Okay. That's fine. I was just curious what you thought about it.

49:53

Because as Christians we believe that this life is the only shot. And so the reason why

49:59

I bring up Alma 34 is I think that there is a point where it is correct and that this is the one chance that we get.

50:08

And so that's why if Mormonism is false then we would contend respectfully but also humbly that it is because it has a different God and a different way to God and also even different eternal destinations.

50:24

So it's a system that ultimately it doesn't save the faithful rather they unknowingly march to hell with the

50:32

Bible and their hands in the hands of their God. And that's what breaks our hearts. We believe that Joseph Smith gave a different idea of who

50:42

God is to the world and now there's seventeen plus seventeen million plus Mormons such as yourself who believe that.

50:51

And the issue is Andrew if you have the wrong Christ if you believe in the Christ who is your elder brother who is the brother of Satan who didn't create everything but is a created being that's a false

51:03

Christ. And it's the same false Christ as in Siberia there's a guy named Asaryon who started a cult called the

51:09

Church of the Last Testament who claims he's Jesus reincarnated. He's written a few books bysted a documentary on him it's really interesting.

51:16

But he says he's Jesus his followers truly believe he's Jesus and they would condemn both of us to saying we aren't following the true

51:24

Jesus but in the same way we have to say ok we have three different ideas of who Jesus is how do we figure it out?

51:30

How do we you know put it to the test and put the issue to rest? The issue is we've got to look at what the scriptures say and the scriptures and the bible teach

51:38

Jesus is God eternal. He created everything and everything is sustained pagan.

51:44

So he didn't organize matter there weren't pre -existent intelligences that he just organized and then put in the bodies.

51:53

That idea is foreign to the Bible and that's what concerns us today. So I would love for you to take a track and read it and you know maybe come back and talk to us if you have some questions or even if you find something that we're wrong about we would love to you know be corrected if we're incorrect about something.

52:11

Is that something you'd be open to doing? Just to say if I graze on it just to you know kind of see would that be alright?

52:22

I think I'm going to have to go ahead and decline this book. Here's your book back. Well thanks for talking with us.

52:29

Appreciate it. It was Andrew right? I wish I know you guys are out I'd like to think we disagree but we both allow each other that we're doing the best we can with what we know.

52:41

And you know there is certainly a point where that's true but there is a point you know where similar to the apostles in the

52:47

New Testament where they told the world the gospel and they told them to repent and leave and in that same way you know with all the gentleness that I could muster up Andrew if you affirm

53:00

Joseph's revelation about who God is about your eternal destiny the plan of salvation if you affirm those things you need to repent and you need to believe in the true gospel and the true

53:10

Jesus that the Bible now is telling you go home and read the scriptures go home and read John 1 go home and read

53:16

Colossians 1 and then read the first three chapters of Romans if you're open to it maybe even

53:22

Isaiah 40 through 44 where those chapters speak of the exclusivity of God there's only one

53:29

God you're never going to become a God you, I don't know if you're married you and your wife or your future wife you will never have you know your own eternal possibility that's not in the

53:40

Bible the scripture disallows this possibility so you know all the things you're striving for it's in vain

53:46

I don't want that so you know I love you I would challenge you as a fellow brother and man to repent and turn to Christ and give you life and I know that that's probably going to sound harsh or like weird because you already profess a belief in Christ but my friend has a false belief so he can't say that he believes