If God is good and all loving... Why suffering? Laborers' Podcast

Welcome to the Laborer's Podcast. Thank you for joining us tonight. Tonight's topic, if God is all -powerful, if God is all -good, if God is all -loving, then why?

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Let's jump into this thing. This is one of those things, Tyler, John, that there's articles, there's been conversations, there's been podcasts, there's been

TV shows. I've heard them, I've listened to them, I've read them. People answering this question but still yet we come across those individuals that still ask this question and I guess they've not been introduced to those shows and articles that we have.

There's people out there that still have this question. If God is all good, if he's all loving, if he's all knowing, if he's all powerful, then why do bad things happen to good people?

That they're going to continue to ask that question over and over again until the post -millennial truth happens and the world becomes most

Christianized. Right, Tyler? I can't do nothing with these boys. I'm still waiting for the post -mill response to the booty shorts for men.

That's why I called you out on that one because I saw that post in our chat.

Just absolutely ridiculous. I don't think we need to take it any further on here. That was pretty funny.

People are going to continue to ask that question and we need to have a good answer but secondly

I think as Christians, answering questions like this, reviewing questions like this, it's encouraging.

It's encouraging to remember who God is, to study his character and nature, then be reassured and refreshed in who he is so that whatever we face, which we know it's going to be things, we're going to face things and we can have a greater confidence looking at the

Word of God answering this question. If I could say a few things before we dive in.

Absolutely. Just kind of setting some parameters for the viewers as to what we're aiming to do and what we're not aiming to do.

Because it's very easy when we get into the subject of evil being allowed to exist, it is very easy to start to be tempted to imagine solutions and go beyond the boundaries of what

Scripture says or doesn't say concerning that issue and that may work well for a movie but in real life it's things are complicated and just because it's complicated doesn't mean that we need ingenuity.

Deuteronomy 29 29 tells us that the secret things belong to the

Lord our God but that which has been revealed belongs to us and to our children forever so there are things that God has kept secret and those are his and there are things that he's made plain to us for our benefit so there's a constant there's a degree of staying in our lane so to speak when at the very end of the book of John we're told that Jesus did many other things but that if so many things that if they were to be written down John says that perhaps the world itself could not fill all the things that will be written.

Amen. We're told that Solomon was wiser than any man on the earth with the exception of Christ.

We're told that he wrote 3 ,000 proverbs and a thousand and five songs. We have one song preserved for us in the

Bible. It's the song of Solomon. We have two psalms and we have the book of Proverbs.

I did the math that's less than 1 % of the sum total of what Solomon wrote. So when we talk about the mysteries of God we talk about the way

God relates to the presence of evil there's a lot we're not going to know. We're not necessarily given all of the answers to everything that ever will be.

So all we can do here is look to what God has told us what God has revealed about himself knowing that we will know him more more fully we will know him greater and deeper in eternity but we still won't know it all.

And that's part of the process isn't it? The process of sanctification. I think he not only are we just like justification we turn from sin and we turn to Christ in faith but in sanctification we're still turning from sin.

We're revealed more and more who we are under the law and we figure out there's more things that we need to repent and turn from but then also in sanctification we become we're becoming more and more like Christ and as we're becoming more like Christ we're knowing more about him.

And so yeah I totally on target to continue to know and learn and grow and there's a deepness and a greatness and a wideness to God that we were we just weren't created to be able to dive into that.

Yep I mean you concur.

One of the things I've said it's been noted piles of times and y 'all tell me if I'm lying is that the desire to feel like you have an answer for everything that is

God and of God is is one of the biggest reasons why

I refuse to listen to some people who act like they've got all the answers. There's nothing wrong with a solid

I don't know right? Yeah right. I mean why is it that good things happen to bad people?

Is that what you asked? Mm -hmm. Is it? Because that's not what my question said.

You say if God is good why is love suffering? Well I'm asking why does good things happen to bad people? Yeah. Over and over again folks that choose to own their unbelief on God on something like suffering

I think is absolutely laughably ludicrous.

There's not a word for it. Consider that the first thing that that an unbeliever who uses this as an excuse is why he don't believe in God is based off of God's morality and his own morality.

Mm -hmm. Is that not hilarious? I mean that's

I don't know man that's like jumping in the ocean try to argue with a shark. It's like you're not even in your element and you're gonna talk about morality with the author of righteousness.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. But that's the way the question is phrased right?

And then it's usually hitched to some kind of an emotional reaction. Brother Claude Ramsey had told us one time about a sermon called ten shekels in a shirt.

Did any of y 'all ever do the homework and listen to that sermon? Yeah it was good. It was great. It was good. It was powerful right?

How about you brother Tyler? Did you ever listen to it? Can't say that I did. If you did you remember so you didn't.

The idea of man's suffering even even man's damnation being the motivator for evangelism is no different than secular humanism just wanting what's best for mankind because mankind understands the other man's plight.

And that's that's a hard bitter pill to swallow. But if and I just botched this first question and I'm sorry but that's that's the flavor that it is and it's hilarious and it didn't used to be.

It's kind of like once you learn how to read you realize how silly it was that thin books you got in the first grade tripped you up once you learn how to read solid right?

And it's anyway well you state the first question so I can do a better job.

Well we've not even got to the first question yet and in response to what you were saying correct me if I'm wrong but it would would it not be fair to say to ourselves or to somebody else asking this question do some deep reflecting and ask yourself what would you do?

How would you handle this? Sure. And you begin to work all those things out and I think you would come to a greater appreciation understanding of who

God is and what he's done because if you really took the time to contemplate and do all the math and figure this stuff out

I don't think I don't think we could. Sure I agree with that. I agree with that. So I'll ask the question to you.

I'm gonna ask you to put you on hot seat. Where does the mindset come from? Where does the mindset of if God is all loving then why does suffering exist?

Where does that that attitude I had to look up what mindset meant where does that come from brother

Robert? For me biblically I think it comes from a deep -rooted way deep down in our sin nature that's been passed down from the from the fall of Adam and Eve and where we where we question

God's Word we question who he is and who he says he is and that that he even exists or that he has rule and reign he has sovereignty he has any kind of control over this thing we're questioning his his character and integrity you know you say you're all good you say you're all over loving why does why do these things happen?

In parallel we're all made in God's image and so if we claim to have a desire for justice to be done it is because God is just and we are made in his image.

That's right. So while we have that innate desire to see justice it is marred by the fact that we are conceived and born in sin.

Yeah. That our affections are not tuned towards the things that please

God. Yeah. And so our even our desire for justice is tainted by the presence and power of sin.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just another attempt on our part to dethrone

God and put ourselves on there. It's for my idolatry maybe? Yep absolutely.

I would agree with that. I'd agree with all that. In fact I don't know that I would even add anything to that.

I think that that's solid. When your children question you it's because they're questioning your authority.

They're questioning your competency. They're questioning your leadership. But truthfully they're just trying to play the whole if I was

God thing this is what I would do and you start to think you know better. Yeah.

Well and Tyler was talking about justice that goes back to what I mentioned a while ago. Work that out.

Yeah work it out. You want justice go ahead and work that out. See what you come up with and then question

God. I mean I think we would spend short time of it and just realize we would just need to throw up our hands in submission to God if we do that.

What is the biblical definition of good and evil? What do you think

Tyler? I'm glad he asked you. Well if we go to Galatians 5 on the list of the fruit of the

Spirit we have among other things goodness. There you go.

We have this idea of goodness as being consistent with God's character.

It's something that the Spirit works in us. It's something that God puts in us that wasn't there before.

And so the absence of goodness would be what we call evil.

If we go to Genesis 6 he looks down on the earth and sees that the hearts of men are altogether wicked all the time.

It's it's kind of a simplistic answer but I would just say that evil is the absence of good.

That is the absence of what is consistent with the character of God. So do you think with the definition of good or what how we understand good do you think that there's a variety or a range of what good is?

Like can good be biblically? Can good be 100 % moral perfection, holiness?

Yes. And also a scale? No. No?

I don't believe goodness can be a scale. I don't believe goodness is a spectrum. Okay. If we think about it

God creates everything and says it's what? Good. It's good. And he curses the earth because of something that was bad.

Rebellion. New Testament. Rick Schoenruder comes to Jesus. Good teacher.

What must I do to inherit eternal life? Jesus proceeds to ask him immediately, why are you calling me good?

Right? Yeah. Now I believe the man was right and calling him good because he's God but at the same time the man doesn't give him an adequate answer as if to show that he has any kind of illumination as to who he's talking to.

Is that fair? You froze on me Robert. Okay. So Jesus says ain't but one is good and that's

God. That makes it extremely exclusive. Right. Which makes it less than a spectrum.

That would be my argument for that. Now if you were to say there's things that are evil,

I think Tyler's right and saying everything that is not good is evil. Now Jesus would say that we know how to give good things to our children even though we're evil.

So if you looked at good in terms of a gift being good given from God, I still don't think of it in terms of a spectrum.

It's kind of like wide and narrow at the same time. There's a spectrum of evil but there's no spectrum of good.

Gotcha. That was gonna be one of my other questions too. I agree with that and you think about the scripture that says be ye holy as I am holy.

That's right. Your holiness must exceed that of the Pharisees to see the kingdom of God.

And so there's that idea of without holiness no man shall see God. That's right and you think of Tyler's logic there and half of or evil is the absence of good and if you're putting if you're making good and putting it on scale and you're half good, you're evil.

You're evil. If any part of it is absent, there's evil there and if evil is there, there's no good.

It's like this. If you had a big thick ribeye and somebody sprinkled just a little bit of dung on it, would you call it mostly good with a little bit of bad or would you call the whole plate trash?

Right. I know that's vulgar but the Bible's not easy in referring to our good works as anything less than a filthy diaper.

Right? So to be in Christ is to be in right standing with God and is to be joint heirs with Christ.

It's to be not good in the fact that we don't have temptations but it is it is good in the fact that we're in him.

But anything less than that I think is just trying to buy off your salvation with good works which in the end even if the works seem good, they're not.

They're a bribe. Yeah. So yeah evil's a spectrum but good is singular.

Yeah. And often overused. Often overused. We use that word in English language to say something's okay.

Something's good enough. Something is satisfactory but it is explicitly should be used in the term perfect.

Anyway. I know well I know back in college that that era, that time period, they were talking about the word awesome and how it is misused or used in appropriately inappropriate times when

God should be the only thing that was referred to as awesome, the one we'll call a pair of sneakers awesome.

And you're kind of saying the same thing about good. Yeah. So who's responsible for evil in the world?

Evil being the absence of good. So I think, wait a minute, I don't get a turn.

I spoke last. You want to go Tyler? I want to be sure that I'm not blabbermouth.

I think Romans 5, therefore just through one man's sin and the sin brought death and death spread to all men for all have sinned.

That's right. That at the end of the day it is traced back to us.

Who is responsible for evil in the world? In the immediate sense it is

Adam. That's right. Adam sinned even though it was

Eve that first ate the fruit. The Bible distinguishes that in a really interesting way and it says that Eve was deceived but Adam sinned.

That's right. Adam is the one who responsibility is placed on in the garden because you have hearkened unto the voice of thy wife because you've done that because you've listened to a voice other than mine.

The ground is cursed. That's right. You shall eat eat the dust of you shall from dust as you came into dust you shall return from the sweat of your brow you shall eat bread.

Ouch. But that is that is the harshness of it is that as GK Chesterton once put it someone asked me what is wrong with the world and he said me.

I want to ask a question about a scripture and I hundred percent agree with you. Whenever God made

Adam he give Adam dominion and Adam let the enemy come into his house and mess with his wife and he believed the lie and and he had to pay for it and everybody since then had to pay for it.

Whenever you read Isaiah 45 and 7 break that down and and it's according to which version you read if you're reading the

King James Version it's going to it's going to use a word you may recognize and if you're reading a newer version like ESV it's not going to use that word and I don't know that I don't prefer the translation.

I hope this verse was going to come up John. Well I had to. It had to. And that's why

I said in the immediate sense because there's an added layer we can peel peel this it's like an onion you could go almost to infinity with this it seems.

Well now in a sense if you think about it so you want to read that scripture

Brother Tyler? Which version? King James. Perfect. I form the light and create darkness.

I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. In a sense everything that has been made

God made it. If you think about the garden the the fruit that they eat of was of what?

The knowledge of good and evil. Good and evil which predated that tree was there before Adam was there.

Right? Adam was put in the garden or Adam was made while he was in the outside the garden and then placed into the garden if I remember correctly.

He was formed in the garden. Adam was made out of the garden and put in the garden. So that tree was there when

Adam was put there. Now I didn't check that to make sure that my that my genealogy is right but I think it is.

So the knowledge of good and evil existed therefore evil had to exist before Adam.

Right? And you might imagine that's got to be the case because the evil one tempted Adam. So that means he was there before the fall.

So now this is one of those this is one of those things that I can firmly look at the camera and say

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know exactly how all that plays. And then it's on 105 with the redemptive history of Israel.

Yeah. It literally says in regards to the pagan nations that persecuted Israel that he turned their heart to hate his people.

Yeah. I believe it's in Quran Chronicles chapter 17 whenever was it

Joachim or Jehoshaphat was going to war with the this is the separated kingdom.

He was going to war with Ahab or Ahaz and they were going to fight the

Philistines or something like that. And there was 400 lion prophets and there was only one prophet that said the truth.

It was Micah. And forgive me I'm going off memory here and I might be wrong.

But it was either Jehoshaphat or Jeroboam I don't recall was struck dead in that battle. But it says that God sent a lion spirit to those 400 prophets.

Right. And that's just as bitter a pill to swallow as it is when you hear that God hardened

Pharaoh's heart. You know God's God is sovereign in all of these things. And however in God there is goodness and there is no evil.

Right. So what does that tell you. Those deeper things are hard to understand.

Those deep things are hard to understand. So you can think things belong to the Lord our God. That's exactly right.

Yep. Lean not on your own understanding but in all your ways trust in him. Yeah. I was just thinking about Proverbs 16 9.

A man's heart divides his way but the Lord directed the steps. Mm -hmm.

That's right. I think that's why it's been on my heart for months.

I think that's why the motivations on why you're asking these questions are as important as the questions you're asking.

Mm -hmm. If you're watching this and I hope there's someone who is watching this that has struggled with this issue because everybody if you live long enough is going to be faced with an issue where something bad happens to you and it seems unfair.

Right. We're all adults here. It just seems unfair. Why did God let this happen to me?

Why did God let this happen to my loved ones? And it might seem overly harsh especially to Americans but it's actually a way bigger deal than us.

We have so we're we are so small in such a big picture and it's easy to think about it that way from a mechanical point of view and kind of lose touch of the personal of us of God.

But I have a theory on this that everything that God has given us and everything that God has on this earth is to testify of his goodness and his glory.

It's used to to show how exceedingly far and above he is in everything.

It's my firm belief that the hardest trials are to make the sweetest victories that much sweeter.

For I reckon that the sufferings of this world are not worthy to be compared to the glory that shall be revealed in us is what Paul says in Romans chapter 8 and 18 something like that.

Right. Paul would say that the sufferings of this world he's not he's not negating that there are sufferings in this world but rather he's quantifying the sufferings of this world by saying bad as they are they're not worth comparing to the glory that God is going to reveal in us.

Right. This see

I want to read this is one of my favorite portions of scripture like like ever. Therefore do not lose heart although the outer man is decaying yet the inner man is being renewed day by day for this momentary light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison while we look not at the things which are seen but at the things which are not seen for those things which are temporal but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Now doesn't that talk about perspective there? The Bible's calling this light. How can it call this light?

I gotta understand its perspective. It is. It's momentary.

So I've said I've shared it before I heard testimony of a young woman and it literally put scripture into focus and every time we come into something like this

I'm reminded of her words. She was diagnosed with terminal cancer at a very young age you can watch this entire thing on wretched

TV I think it's where I saw it Todd Friel's channel and her dad carried her to every tent revival every healing service he could find because why wouldn't you?

Doctors have give up. We hey I do the same thing whatever

I could do whatever I'd have to do to see one of my children made whole that was sick I would be doing it.

Any dad would do that if he loved his kids regardless of where he went and whatever happened her condition remained the same and when she was about 21 years old she made a video she passed away a few years later where she was talking about how she just instead of being mad or frustrated or desiring healing she was rather than that she was holding on to this cancer because in holding on to this cancer that was terminal she had a relationship with God that in her own testimony was that she's afraid in her strength if she were well she wouldn't hold on to God the way that she holds on to God and the relationship she had with God was so intimate and was so personal that it was worth keeping cancer because in her own heart she knew that if she were well she would have got up out of the bed in the morning she wouldn't have thanked

God for the strength that he gave her to get out of bed instead she kept getting on up and going and doing her thing whenever she sit down to eat she wouldn't worry about being sick from the medicine that they'd give her later on she just so she wouldn't thank

God for the food that she eat instead she would just get up and move on and and in her words were

I know that in my heart if I were well I would not appreciate the relationship

I have with God and I'll accept that over whatever else I have and I thank

God that he's given me this disease because he has never let me down whenever I get up in the morning he's waiting on me and he gives me strength to get through the day he's never left me for a moment her affliction was momentary but her relationship with God was eternal now in light of eternity no matter how long a period of time it is momentary therefore it is light you have to weigh all these things out with eternity in mind and here's why

I say it's for God's glory here's why I said that you have to use this to weigh all this out I believe that that does two things one that actually serves to give credibility to your suffering

Paul's not making light of the suffering in fact he's saying this is so bad it is so bad that I'm writing in about it

I'm talking about in a in a in a letter that we only have like 27 of this part of the

Bible I'm gonna take some of that time to write about this affliction that I'm going under it must be bad for him to take time to write about it so bad that the only reason that I can endure it is because I know that eternity is waiting and it's going to be worth it so don't look at a statement like this momentary light affliction being something that's just trying to make your present condition minor but rather look at it as God's saying

I know how hard this is going to be and it's going to be worth it you know and it should give you strength to walk through it

I think about Ezekiel whenever God took Ezekiel's wife which is something we would have left out of the Bible if men wrote it taking your wife from you and I'm not gonna let you cry about it then they'll know that I am the

Lord your God and then he says something he hadn't said in any of the other chapters when he said that and they'll know that you are my prophet

Ezekiel it is it is remarkable what what man can endure when

God is driving him when God is is luring him when God is strengthening him right and it takes it takes

God to make it worth it contrary to that and I don't mean to be long -winded

Robert I'm sorry you go ahead those of us in Christ 1st Corinthians chapter 15 if we in Christ have hope in this world only we're of all men to be most pitied or most miserable so it's it's eternity that makes any of it worth it

I'll tell you if you want encouragement you sit down and listen to men who've been with God this is this is the second time this week that I've had the privilege and and honor and I want to say the humility or humble opportunity last night

I was sitting under one of our other elders and he was talking about the the elements teaching his lesson and how they so easily burn up and talk about straw and then he talked about some some of the metals like gold and he was asking for comments and I know you all didn't hear the rest of his his lesson but I told him

I said speaking of elements I said brother these words tonight were steel I mean they are powerful they they give us strength and and same thing tonight

I'm just encouraged by what you were just saying John and I appreciate it and I was

I was thinking about it as you were talking about that story and your response to that story and you know my response in my mind in my heart as I'm listening to it is in myself

I don't I know that I couldn't do that and then should I be praying for that perspective should

I be asking God for that perspective and then I begin to think about some of those scriptures that says the

Holy Spirit will give you the words to say at that time and will he not also and this isn't part of that passage but just thinking about that passage will he not also give you what you need in your time of need yeah we all have the same

Holy Spirit so he he gives me what I need in the in the place where he has me right now and if he has us in that place that he has that girl then he will give us what we need to have that perspective at that time yeah and he is wonderful to do that amen and then those are great testimonies to prove his goodness and and put forth and boast about his his faithfulness to his promises praise the

Lord I mean and I don't want to go back to the question so please forgive me and I don't want to be

I don't mean too simplistic and trite about this analogy that I'm thinking about in my mind but we were talking about who's who's responsible for evil in the world so you know don't take it that way that it's just it's the most that my mind can create yours may can create bigger and better things more creative things so so please forgive me if you take it just if you think it's too simplistic but I was thinking who's responsible for sin and I it made me think about a man who may want a gold fish it doesn't take much knowledge to know what what the life of a goldfish looks like you know it's gonna do a couple things in its life you buy the tank put the water in it you put the goldfish in the tank think it's dirty who's responsible for the dirty thing who causes it to be dirty is the fish that did what he does in his life to make it dirty or was it the man who wanted the goldfish who put the fish in the tank yes

I mean I mean the goldfish can blame it on on the man that put him in the tank right but it is the natural defecation of the goldfish that made him that that made the tank dirty right so without a without someone to clean him up without someone to change him and put him in something is death is that a proper analogy or I said look

I like it I like fish I mean I like catching them I like frown I even like catch them up throw them back that way

I catch them again later do do reformers and Calvinists do they ever catch and release or does that go against their their doctrine whatever whatever happened

I'm not a prophet or the son of a prophet but I'll tell you after the fact that it was the sovereignty of God that shows you can't tell me during the storm that it was

God's sovereignty oh well

I mean that's what that's where I wanted to go with this okay I'm some people do they will equate it with with evil

I mean I've heard Neil deGrasse Tyson say that the tsunami that hit Japan in 2012 was the greatest refutation for the existence of God because of that happened then

God is not omnipotent or omnibenevolent okay so he's either saying that God is evil or God doesn't he really painted himself into a special spot in hell there didn't he

I mean you consider the fact that you're again arguing from a point of morality right who says what is good right who gets to decide what's fair the

Lord the Lord so if God deemed something fair even if it don't look like it from our point of does that make it unfair right no lean not on your own understanding but in all your ways trust in him it's tough so you repeat it because it's tough you have to you have to remind yourself when things don't go the way you want them to go you're not driving the boat you're you're on the boat but this is not your boat this is not your way this is you have nothing to do it you can trust the captain you can stay in the boat you know you can get you can get along but I I don't know that him

I don't know that before salvation I didn't feel the same way but I don't think I was ever brave enough to say it if I'd have felt that way

I was raised under this cultural Christianity that's in North Carolina that that you know you you just told somebody you pray for them if a tornado hit you know or whatever and you know you you didn't want nothing bad to happen to him and you knew

God existed and God had to be good because if you said he's anything other than good you know you get cut off by a family or whatever but but the older I get the more the

Scriptures mean when he says he cursed the earth because of Adam thorns and thistles it grew it's more than just that it's bad weather and hurricanes and floods and even the first flood come from what why because man's heart was continually on things that were evil and violent

God destroyed earth with the flood it wasn't because God wanted to destroy the earth it was because God said

I've got I'm straightening this out yeah man didn't have to do that yeah and you were talking about perspective basically again and it yeah

I was thinking about a deer who's running and get caught caught in a fence I mean he he is gonna fight you tooth and nail but you're there to free him you you want to free him let him let him out but he's gonna fight you tooth and nail it's about perspective you just multiply that analogy times a billion and there that that's how much we understand in our perspective according to God's ways higher than ours

I think there's one thing I've took from these questions mm -hmm it is that this this question alone deals with perspective yeah from the first question on this is a very us looking at God from our point of view and finding faults with God from our point of view if there was just one mirror in this equation right it would stop a lot of the questions that people are asking but ultimately people have decided that there's a different level of good and there are that level of good and if they wouldn't do that then surely

God would it was his name the grass Tyson the guy from NASA or whatever I'm not sure what he did before he was on YouTube I don't know

I think he's an astrophysicist yeah and he's so let's consider the fact that a guy like John Lennox exist right who says that in his understanding of physics he concludes

God must exist for there to be the consistency of physics to be at play now you've got a guy like him who has a perspective on a holistic view of physics and mathematics in the world and creation and biblical truth and then you got another guy who's playing with the rules the same rules that one man's living in except he's deciding that God can't exist for those rules to exist it's it's kind of like the whole

I don't know I'm not good at psychology or you know

I'm not a philosopher or nothing like that so but it's kind of like whenever you see rich little kids that dad's paid for everything their whole life and they've had it made raised on a silver spoon and then they start to protest you know things like privilege from a position of privilege you watch these kids in an

Ivy League school who walked in on somebody else's dime never worked a day in their life and they stand in a protest about people having privilege who are getting up going to work in the morning right do you think you're you're arguing privilege from a from a very privileged position it seems kind of hypocritical and stupid yeah yeah and if you're a subject of perspective if I could pull one of the questions we had like way down the list and inserted here oh yeah because I had come across some material from John Calvin in my studies in Job because I have been reading through all 90 of his sermons through the book of Job I haven't been through all of them don't don't interpret it that way but yeah

I think I'm in like the 30 ish range but anyway he has this really interesting take on how we work through the idea of God being just while inflicting suffering on Job and I want to read a little bit of it because I think it's relevant to where we're heading with this idea of perspective and he put it in in a more modernized language for we always have to remember that God has his hidden majesty and thus in that majesty there is a righteousness we do not understand it is true that God has indeed given us in his law a pattern in picture of his righteousness but only to the extent we can understand it now we know that our understanding is crude it cannot rise so high as to conceive what is perfect in God and that is said in dialogue with Job 1515 behold he put his no trust in his saints yea the heavens are not clean in his sight what he was getting at is that the righteousness of God as we find find it in the

Bible is is a slipper it's sufficient knowledge for us to become saved it gives us a perfect standard of righteousness to which we cannot attain unless it is fulfilled in Christ but in the greater landscape of the nature of God as Calvin puts it there is a bigger picture to which we cannot conceive in our minds a righteousness a view of righteousness that would condemn even the angels itself and so we talk about suffering we talk about how

God can be just in the midst of suffering that is the view of righteousness that Calvin suggests that we have is that it is apples to grass there is no comparison here what so ever that as we we deal with this we're talking about a

God that is so holy that the angels cover their eyes that's right that it says in Job that the heavens itself would be unclean in his presence that is the

God of Job yeah who do we think we are that's right seem like that's what

God asked Job wouldn't I give you a hook you're gonna put it

Leviathan's mouth yeah I mean let's think about it there's a holy with a

W and a holy with an H otherness to God it's just in entirely there's no he's unique and that there's nothing like God except God what

I can't get over was is what's coming up on the gospel that's what I can't get over when we give the gospel message

I want you to remember all the things that that's being said right now about suffering and and and to and to hold on to them because I'm we all know people a dear friend of mine got up to go to work one morning his wife met him packed his lunch he kissed his pregnant wife walked out the door sometime after he walked out the door she fell dead and lost the baby and he lost his baby and his wife in one fell swoop right and you you go to him as a minister like I did like when

I find out I get I get a call from from somebody who knows we're close and he goes to a different church than I do so it wasn't like my church family reached out to me actually wasn't never my church did though and so when

I go to his house I was thinking about Joe when

I got to his house and I just give him a hug and sit down I didn't say nothing yeah

I mean what so in it Theo and here's where Calvinist listen this is where if you're not careful you'd be putting a cage or whatever right all you

Calvinist you can look at it biblically soundly and say yeah this is our fault that's why she died it's because of sins why she died that's why you lost your child because of sin and you'd be biblically correct but are you but are you applying it in a way that Jesus would use it do you see

Jesus tell Mary and Martha yeah your brother died but it was his own fault is that the is that the attitude we see the

Almighty whenever he walks on this earth with us that's most certainly not the attitude that he has so how can we claim to be followers of his act differently right we we mourn when they mourn we cry with them we pray for them we love them anyhow and yes we know that it's because of sin that this happened but we also know that but by God's grace even though she passed and that and that baby passed that there was a gospel for her too right that in the middle of that tragedy

I think I want to I don't want put words in his mouth but I want to say whenever whenever he talked to me he said it's gonna be okay he said

I he said I know that all of this didn't catch God by surprise you know it's just there's grace in those times as bad as that is

I'm a family man I've been blessed with a wife and daughters I love more than I can even put into words right and if you lose them all it's a momentary light affliction that is working for you an eternal weight of glory whenever you leave this world that's how you quantify these hard things you have to quantify them with the fact that the only way that it makes it worth it is because of Jesus so when he even said that he came to to understand what we we go through and and God went through the hard thing of giving his son yes up to death for our benefit and and that in those situations where it's difficult it's hard to explain that and and make that comforting in those moments but that that is the most comforting truth if we can verbalize it we can communicate it that's the most comforting truth that there is that that God himself would come and be the healer and forgiver of our hearts inching back just a few steps before you know big

John you were making some application just in response to what Tyler was talking about I was thinking about how

God thinking about God's character in nature and what he has done for us he is he has not left us in the dark with the words and concepts to describe but it's not his it's not his fault that we can't understand we sin has ruined us in such a way that we may have words and concepts that to understand and and God has been good and gracious to let us know who he is and and that there's these big and deep concepts that are out there but you were talking about there's hidden treasures or or things of God that are unknown

Tyler was talking about from from Calvin the the words and the concepts are there it's just that we don't have the ability to fully grasp and understand them

I was just trying to parse that in my mind about who

God is his character in nature and and what you were saying

Tyler and what Calvin was bringing out and to me he's not left us in the dark we just don't have the ability that's why they're hidden that's why they're secret because we don't have the ability to understand but like you said earlier in the episode

I think in eternity his grace gracious kindness to us will be to teach us and reveal us those things do y 'all have any any last last practical application before we tolerate

I'd love to hear you share the gospel again brother I was talking about talking about that I think it was this week or last week how much

I love to hear you present the gospel and how you apply what we've been talking about and I don't like to put put anybody on the spot but brother

I love to hear you share the gospel and then I'll pray us out but as far as application

John you were giving us some just a few minutes ago yeah

I mean so if you think about it from what do you do with the truth of scripture you go up to somebody who's gone through this situation you have to understand that one that they're in there a created being who who will experience emotion that God did give them to experience right

I also think that you you understand that God to give them grace in that moment you said something about the

Holy Spirit giving you wisdom whenever you need it right and I think a lot of times a fellow who talks as much as I talk there are times whenever your presence is enough you know especially when you're dealing with like men we were talking and picking and cutting up before this how men can talk to one another and just cut one other to bone and we don't we don't really care that much about it because you don't pick with people that you don't care for when you're a man and that's that's that's the truth you know but when someone's going through something that's unspeakably bad and you empathize with them sometimes you go up to them you shake their hand you pick up one end of the sheet you hope three other fellas come there and pick up the other end and then you carry that brother who's paralyzed in that moment where do you take him you take him to the master yeah if you have to climb up on the roof and pull the tiles down and lower him in that's what you do you don't have to say a word right you know what the

Lord wants you to do right seek justice love mercy and walk humbly with your

God and the only way that we can't lose heart

I mean who are we to to look down upon anybody else who would lose heart because in and of ourselves our spouse or our child something tragic happens to them in and of ourselves what strength do we have to muddle through that and still praise the

Lord we can't we can't no we can't that's whenever you see that's that's where the church acting the way that Christ has asked us to act when you see one down either spiritual bear them up mm -hmm right how do you do that right they'd be anything if it be anything of peace of one any good thought in your head anything noble in your mind let that let that be what you think on and speak speak in those times life the only thing you can speak to them is life in Christ and that's it you can give them the gospel because that's what we're gonna hang everything on is a good news of Jesus Christ and it's no there's no time that it's not applicable to talk about the hope that you have in Christ it's always okay to talk about Jesus and the hope you have in Jesus it's also always okay to love against such there is no law take them to the master take them to the master

Tyler won't you take us to the master this evening and then I'll close this absolutely so Hebrews 12 one after giving a list of people from the

Old Testament who lived and died in faith people who suffered people who prospered people who who died just call it is they died and says that they died in faith of a promise not yet seen and chapter 12 verse 1 picks up with where for seeing we also are compassed about was so great a cloud of witnesses let us lay aside every weight and the sin which does so easily beset us and let us run with patience the race that is set before us looking unto

Jesus the author and finisher of our faith who for the joy that was set before him endured the despising the shame and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God for consider him that endureth who endured such contradiction of sinners against himself lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds you have not resisted unto blood striving against sin you have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as children my son despise not thou the chastening of the

Lord nor faint when thou are rebuked of him for whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth discourages every son whom he receiveth if you endure chastening

God dealeth with you as sons for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not and so right right there we are given a picture of Christ as we've talked about suffering perhaps the greatest picture of suffering was poured out on God's own son who despite our fallen states despite the fact that we are marred by the presence and power of sin

God try try you and God God who is eternal who is perfect who is blessed forever put on flesh became one of us and the fullness of the justice that should have been on us the justice that we in our fallen minds crave upon others sometimes and God poured out on his son which should have been ours and he chastened with him he scourges his own son the greatest picture of God's justice of suffering from the hand of God it's not the flood it's not the

Tower of Babel it's a cross is what God did to his own son and he did that for you and for me that he bore our sins in his body why that we might die to sin and live unto righteousness and so the

Son of God died and he emptied hell he harrowed the grave he robbed it clear and he rose triumphantly from the dead three days later demonstrating that he has power over sin and death he is

God he did what he said he was going to do and he rose three days after that and ascended into heaven having finished what he set out to do on earth he ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the

Father for what purpose he is our priest he makes intercession on our behalf and so despite the fact that we are imperfect and we will always send no matter how long you've been in this

Christian thing you will always sin but Christ makes the case before God for you he is pleading for us day in and day out as someone who has been in the shoes of human being who has been tempted in all the ways we are tempted

God makes our case for us and we at the

Truth and Love Network implore you to come unto Christ to believe on the

Lord Jesus Christ who came down lived a perfect life that you and I can never live died for our sins was risen for our sins and ascended for our salvation we invite you to be a part of the family to go to God who has done all the work necessary to reconcile you to himself who had your name on his mind thousands of years ago and he was going to bring you into the world at this date at this time live this many years he has directed your steps directed your paths he has known everything about you and he beckons you to himself to become family with God amen praise the

Lord let's pray Father we thank you we your word says that it's your kindness that leads to repentance your wrath is scarier than we could ever comprehend but praise your name it's your kindness that brings life it's your kindness that draws us and leads us into repentance and gives us faith we thank you for your kindness and your love towards us and and the reason that we can call you father is because you chose to have a familial relationship with us a relationship with with you with a

God who cares and father would you work in us a heart to care and be concerned about our sin that we may flee and you promised that all who would come to you would not be disappointed and so we trust in you tonight coming to you offering our conversations up to you for your glory knowing that it's through your work only that anything can be accomplished and so we offer it to you in Jesus name amen guys

I love you and I appreciate all of you very much thank you for watching the truth and love or through the love through the love network labors that's work please check out labors conference .com

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