Hijacking the Scriptures: The Romans 9 Debate - Rightly Dividing the Word?

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:35

And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line, my name is Rich Pierce and I am sitting in for dr.

00:40

White today. I have prepared a special dividing line here in The Romans 9 debate in a remix.

00:51

That's right. I'm gonna review the Romans 9 debate from last May This debate is actually

00:57

Well, it's been a bird or my saddle ever since we received Since I viewed the videos for the first time

01:04

I Have this thing about Preachers and their methods preachers adequately not just adequately but faithfully preaching the

01:20

Word of God and Sticking to it and not having agendas when they come before the

01:27

Word of God But letting the Bible teach them and they then pass that teaching on to us and we are charged in 2nd

01:39

Timothy 2 15 as the The Apostle Paul tells us be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed accurately handling the

01:53

Word of Truth Now the Romans 9 debate if you've seen it you may already know what

02:00

I'm talking about on the other hand if you have seen it maybe you're

02:07

Arminian and maybe you think that professor flowers did a good job in presenting his case

02:13

The problem is in my view The case was about Romans chapter 9 and what it teaches and last

02:24

I checked Romans chapter 9 is still part of sacred scripture So, let's take a look at how he handled the text in the process of presenting his case

02:39

The method matters and dr. White. I'm not saying anything new if you've seen the debate, you know full well that the things

02:45

I'm bringing up Dr. White pointed out in the cross -examination sections

02:52

He asked these questions. He got professor flowers his answers and I found them woefully inadequate

03:00

The answers that is questions were right on target So with that the before we we dig into that I'd like to give you a better idea as to what it is

03:12

I've got in mind As to what I'd like you to focus on because I want to set the issue of Calvinism aside

03:21

And I want to ask the question What is it that we expect from our preachers?

03:28

Does the man of God go behind the sacred desk and open up the sacred scriptures with that attitude

03:37

That that's what he's doing that. That's what he's there for Or does he have the attitude that this week?

03:45

How can I motivate the people to come back next week? How can I get more as they say butts in the seats or if we're coming around to as?

03:56

James and I both when we were at North thinks Baptist knew full well when we came around to tithing season

04:02

It didn't matter what text was gonna get opened up. We were gonna hear about tithing in fact, the running

04:09

Southern Baptist joke was this morning our focal text will be and then they'd read it and Then quickly depart there from if you're familiar with his book pulpit crimes

04:22

James writes about this He writes about the methods and the tactics that are used

04:29

That I believe the best way to describe it is a hijacking hijacking the pulpit for your own personal gain purpose

04:40

Agenda, it doesn't matter to me Where you are?

04:47

When you open the Word of God Whether you're standing on a street corner whether you are

04:54

Behind a pulpit no matter what your circumstance or in a debate like here

05:03

No matter what your circumstance You need to be faithful to the text when?

05:12

one of the things in my avenues and working with the ministry, by the way my role here is primarily administrative

05:21

I'm the president of Alpha Omega Ministries and I'd also like to plug the fact that I've been working with John Sampson over at King's Church for the last few months and in fact, my wife and I are the newest members at King's Church, and I'm teaching the

05:35

Wednesday night Bible studies and if if you are in the Northwest Valley Like to invite you over be more than happy to have you with us as we just finished walking through the book the first chapter and second chapter of Colossians Culminating last night and our focal text

05:55

Colossians 2 9 so with that said I Want to focus on the methods that we use and the methods that our preachers use when they unpack

06:07

The scriptures and present them to us But before I do I would like to read this section from the introduction from dr.

06:14

White's book Which I think really illustrates this point very well To this day,

06:20

I fully understand his motivations. He was an up -and -coming preacher in a large evangelical denomination

06:26

He had clearly the ability to motivate from the pulpit He was exciting and passionate.

06:33

He came to me because he knew I had some level of knowledge of the original languages He found a commentary written by a fairly well -known scholar that presented in its

06:41

Interpretation of one of the Beatitudes in Matthew chapter 5 an application and interpretation.

06:47

He had never seen He asked me if there was any merit to the inter in the interpretation I went to the text the commentary

06:55

I went to the text the grammar the lexical sources checked and cross -checked other commentaries and Concluded that even though the writer was a fella fairly well -known man

07:04

This was one of those examples where even the best of us chase a rabbit a bit too far down the trail

07:12

The text just did not support the application. He was making I wrote up in my findings

07:17

I wrote up my findings and presented them to the preacher He was clearly disappointed, but he thanked me for the time

07:23

I had taken a few weeks later. I saw that he was preaching in the Sunday morning services

07:28

Which were attended by about 7 ,000 people and televised locally, by the way

07:34

I was in that audience that day when he did that. I'm a personal witness. This is not a made -up story.

07:46

I In question, I listened with sinking heart as he made the very same claims

07:51

Contained in the commentary. He had asked me to examine After the service I happened to encounter him in a narrow hallway in the back of the church.

08:00

He saw me coming He looked embarrassed looked down at the floor and then looked at me and said

08:05

I know I know But you see It preaches so good

08:11

It preaches so good your method is a

08:18

Reflection of how you view the scriptures. I'm gonna say it again your method of presenting the

08:26

Scriptures is a reflection of how you view the scriptures My own recollection of this event is very much like dr.

08:37

Weitz. I remember him. I Remember this preacher and I remember he was exactly as dr.

08:44

White describes him Fiery on fire and the youth loved him just he was he was he was on his way and I remember dr.

08:57

White coming in. Well, he wasn't a doctor at the time still in Seminary if I recall maybe Bible College still coming into our offices and and telling us about how this man had asked him to do this and Then I sat being familiar with the text and what he was trying to do

09:15

I sat through that sermon and I listened to him do the very thing that I knew full. Well, he knew

09:21

Was not there He was gonna preach it. Anyway, he's gonna preach it. Anyway, he knew full well, it was not there and that was the beginning of the end for me at that church as it began to plant seeds of doubt for me and trust in the leadership's

09:41

Dedication to the scriptures which to me is the is the pinnacle if your leadership is not

09:49

Dedicated to the scriptures if they don't see the scriptures as something that they are to submit to then how is it we look at the

09:58

Roman Catholics and these we correct their understanding of The pillar and foundation of the truth passage that they're supposed to be holding up No, the pillar and foundation of the truth holds something up We are to hold up the scriptures the soul infallible

10:15

Word of God The soul and foul rule of faith for the church infallible so with that said let's move on to the structure of the debate and when

10:30

I run through some things with you because as we Dig into this and unpack the debate as it was as it unfolded

10:39

One needs to understand how a debate is supposed to work and if you don't already I'd like to point out that there are

10:45

Primarily four elements to a debate the opening remarks the rebuttal Cross examination and then closing remarks audience questions are optional

10:57

But they can be there. Sometimes they are sometimes they aren't but in the opening remarks section the debater or in this case if we're

11:06

Unpacking if we're preaching Romans chapter 9 essentially, it's the preacher Okay He is to make his case.

11:14

This is where the the the debate is Formulated usually you have a point and a counterpoint kind of scenario where we have a positive and a negative

11:29

Commentary on the thesis of the debate in this case both debaters are presenting a positive case

11:35

So they're putting forward a positive message in contrast to a positive and a negative so in essence

11:42

Either one could have gone first. It really didn't matter Dr. White happened to go first in this particular debate.

11:50

So in the opening remarks They are to make their case and also remember time is limited

11:55

So as you're evaluating their performance and wondering why didn't they spend more time here? Why didn't they spend more time here? They've totally forgot that They have to make it count so they have to go through in this particular case we have a 22 minute opening for both debaters and they have to make their time count and So they can't put everything into the equation

12:16

They must choose the most important points and the most important elements so that they make every moment of their case

12:25

Count they really have to make that case count The second part part is the rebuttal period now in many cases

12:33

We've seen a lot of the debates that dr. White has done the opponent who goes second if dr.

12:40

White has gone first well Unfortunately use their introduction time or their opening remarks time to simply launch into their rebuttal

12:49

The rebuttal tends to get them a lot more ground it's easier if you don't actually make a case you just begin by attacking the other guy's case right up front and That's not how it's supposed to work.

13:03

We get to the rebuttal period and the rebuttal period is designed to respond directly to your opponent's opening remarks this

13:13

It's a much better thing than I can do. It's not something I can do to where you can sit there and On the fly write down what this guy is saying and then get up there and spend

13:24

However long whether that's five minutes to rebut or you know depending on the bait and debate structure

13:31

You can off the top of your head on the fly from your notes Dig in to what your opponent had to say

13:38

The next section is the cross -examination now the point of the cross -examination is to inquire into your opponent's open

13:47

Rebuttal or both. So if we're going to do cross -examination after the opens and the rebuttal then your cross -examination can inquire into One or the other or both together?

13:59

Usually it's both together As the debate has already developed at up to this point now this can vary

14:07

Depending on the order of presentation for instance in this particular debate. The structure was a little unusual

14:13

So both debaters gave opening remarks and then immediately after the individual gave opening remarks

14:21

They go into the cross -examination then the next debater gets up does his opening remarks and then goes into cross -examination of his opening remarks and Then they went into rebuttal in the same order actually not in the same order

14:33

I think they reversed that and that was also a little different. But again, as I said Both are making a positive presentation

14:40

So the order isn't all that critical in this situation So after the rebuttal they also then went into cross -ex

14:49

So you have dr. White doing his opening then going and being cross -examination Then after professor flowers same thing then dr.

14:58

White rebuttal and then another cross -examination. He's being cross -examined on his rebuttal It's actually an intriguing way of doing it and in that regard

15:05

I thought it worked out really well in the in the debate structure. And then finally in your closing remarks, this is key and Very very few of dr.

15:15

White's opponents have I found Have actually abided by this and that is in your closing remarks

15:21

They are supposed to be a summation of the case that you have presented in contrast to what your opponent has

15:27

Presented so far. So this is the summing up of Everything that has happened.

15:32

I Opened I rebutted we cross -examined and I'm putting it all together to make a summary case and and And conclude my entire case here.

15:44

This is the way it finishes up No new information is supposed to be presented at this point

15:52

Closing remarks is not supposed to have any new information. It's supposed to recap all that's come before So with that in mind we need to remember also these events are time for a reason because no filibustering

16:05

You've got in this case. They've got 22 minutes each To make their case and make it count no more and if they want they can go less.

16:15

Yeah So why am I doing this? Again, as I said before I have a problem with preaching with an agenda

16:23

It's never a good thing and too many sermons in our day and age have been the result of preachers with an agenda that Is outside of Scripture or for that matter?

16:38

Think about it. How many sermons have you heard that? You know, the guy makes a good point.

16:43

It's right on target But the text he was working with had nothing to do with what he was preaching about He just forced it in there it's called shoehorning we're gonna shoehorn it into the case and Back to that example, dr.

16:58

White gave earlier why because it preaches good That's not it that's not the way to do this

17:07

We let God's Word do the talking we need to follow the simple act of contextual reading

17:14

Before we can understand a text we must first Establish the text and we can only do that by walking through it and letting it speak for itself

17:25

You may say but I struggle with a lot of texts or people tell me they struggle they don't like what it says

17:30

You know what all of us Struggle with things in Scripture. I struggle with what

17:35

I hear. I struggle with what God has to say to me I am a sinner. I'm a man.

17:41

I'm filled with pride and It is often difficult for me to hear what the

17:47

Bible has to say to me and about me But the solution to this is not to run away from it the solution is to confront it and submit to it

18:01

That's right. Submit to it. This is why the concept of Jesus Christ as our

18:10

Lord is So important because if he's not my

18:16

Lord, I'm still a rebel. I'm still out there doing my own thing Live in my own life

18:24

What's the difference? Submitting to the Word of God is Important and believing all the

18:31

Word of God. I had a Twitter exchange in late

18:37

November with mr. Flowers It involved a number of things.

18:42

I'm not going to go into today I don't have time to in even in this case situation. I'm having to pick and choose where I spend my time and One of the things

18:53

I thought was really interesting was Mr. Flowers had the perspective that when one handles the text any text

19:03

I guess One needs to first come to it from a bird's -eye point of view. That was his phrase

19:09

Then we come and look at it in a grammatical point of view so I guess we're supposed to stand back and and look at the big picture of it all and maybe

19:17

Acts and in Romans and 1st Corinthians and 2nd Corinthians and just kind of look at all of it in a big global sense and Then we can get specific.

19:31

I don't see that. What about the context? I Think that there are circumstances where we learn things and we learn more through understanding the light and knowledge that Parallel passages bring to the table and illuminate this text for us the text that we're in But before we can ever even know that this text and that text go here

19:58

We must first understand this text and what it's talking about This is not a circumstance where we can just go and grab all these different verses and shove them together

20:11

As some have said throw them into our shopping cart and go do the checkout thing and Now we've got our own little customized preferred preferred theologies in our shopping cart

20:25

That's not how the Word of God works There are some questions to consider

20:30

I'd like you to consider as we go into this Ask yourself is the text is the presenter interacting with the text is it

20:40

Actually being addressed is he listening to what's being said How much time is being spent with the text now keep in mind as I said

20:50

Time is of the essence and there's going to be portions that the both debaters will have to summarize for you They don't have the time to be able to go through every single portion of it verse by verse so keep that in mind as we go through this is

21:04

Is the presenter this is key is the presenter embracing the text or avoiding it

21:13

Is the presenter embracing the text or avoiding it look for evasive tactics like running away from the text we read it and Okay, we're gonna go over here and talk about this over here cherry -picking

21:26

Cherry -picking. All right. I'm gonna read this section. It sounds like this and sounds like that. So I'm gonna go grab

21:33

Plucks some verses out of their own context that sounds like that and we're going to discuss those instead cherry -picking

21:42

My favorite Actually my second favorite reading it backwards reading it backwards we start at the end and Literally read it backwards and you may chuckle at that But we've actually had circumstances where James has had exchanges with Armenians about John 6 37 through 45 where the

22:03

Armenian wants to start at verse 45 and Start working his way instead of left to right.

22:10

It's right to left and See how we can

22:16

You know what we can come up with through this method. I Don't know that may work well with a

22:22

Beatles album, but I don't think it's very good for Scripture. Hmm anyway Now my personal favorite and that's leapfrogging

22:29

Leapfrogging what's leapfrogging? Well leapfrogging is you're going you're bopping along through a text of Scripture and you're going along and you know what?

22:36

You don't really like this next portion. So we'll just jump right over it leapfrog jump right over it.

22:42

I Still to this day don't know why This preacher did this but back in the days of my youth

22:51

The pastor of my church was at the time again same church Dr. White and I were both attending at the time.

23:00

He was he was teaching on Colossians 1 Expository preaching okay and One week he stops it chapter 2 verse 8

23:13

The following week he picks up at chapter 2 verse 10 in him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form

23:21

Was the text that he skipped I don't know why

23:27

He leapfrogged it And to this day, I I just don't I can't fathom why Maybe it was a mistake

23:36

But I know people at the time brought it up to him Never went back to it.

23:42

I Don't understand so leapfrogging. There's also something else that you need to keep in mind

23:48

Things to look for in these debates, you're gonna see both debaters of will appeal to hermeneutics

23:53

They're going to say they're going to claim that there theirs is the case that is being faithful to the text

24:01

Proper hermeneutics as I said before they will need to summarize for portions of time For this the sake of this presentation just so we have the context

24:13

Because that's what I'm about when I'm teaching on Wednesday nights in Bible study Context context context and it is amazing especially when one is going through the

24:22

Apostle Paul how much and how precise a writer Paul was and How much is there as you're walking through it just?

24:32

Section by section word by word. He doesn't waste a single word and how he uses it and how he packs a line of thought together and You know

24:43

Colossians 1 is an amazing amazing Passage that we've been going through and And oftentimes

24:50

I find myself preaching to myself more than I am teaching others. I just it's such a blessing to do it so I'm gonna read the text before I play the section and I want you to watch how closely as we they get into it the text is being followed or Departed from is the debater interested in what is written or is this the last thing in the world?

25:13

They want to read that may sound harsh But I think you're gonna see that's the case for one of these debaters

25:23

Now I did change the order. That's why I called it a Romans 9 remix. I changed the order up because I felt that one of them needs to be put forward as the example of what not to do and then as the counterfeit frankly and Then the real thing needs to be presented this is how it should have been done.

25:45

This is how it would have been done rightly So I changed the order professor flowers will go first then

25:52

James and again this first section this first portion Of my filling in is just going to be in their introductory remarks in their opening remarks

26:03

We'll see if we get any further than that James may kick me out. He may lock the door He may never let me back in here again.

26:08

I don't know. We'll see but for now I've commandeered the studio and I've taken over and this is what we're gonna do and I'm uploading this show today

26:16

Okay, so remember also, it doesn't change the effect or how the debaters would have

26:23

Conducted themselves because James had number one not heard professor flowers his presentation. Although if he had

26:30

It might have totally thrown his present his opening off We may not have actually seen this simply because of how far off the beam professor flowers went and Professor flowers this presentation would not be changed by this because he read it all verbatim from his notes

26:49

So with that we're going to speed in here and I've got my keyboard over here operating the machines from the other room

26:56

I'm doing a one -man show today. I really hope and pray this works and we're gonna go ahead and hear the initial portion of Professor flowers is let's call it the introduction to his opening remarks

27:14

First of all, I want to just say that I agree with dr. White on many of the things he just now taught

27:20

I agree with much of the the things that he teaches and that he does on his dividing line program

27:26

I very much support his ministry and Hold him in high esteem as I do with many of my

27:34

Calvinistic friends. There's No ill will to those who disagree with me on this subject

27:39

And I hope everyone understands that we can be brothers and love one another even though we do disagree over this point in doctrine

27:46

I also agree with dr. White on the point that this chapter is so theological.

27:52

It is about salvation It involves individuals. It's not just about nations.

27:58

It involves Jacob and Esau. It involves there being chosen It involves

28:04

Moses it involves Pharaoh all individuals many times my view is totally and completely dismissed and washed aside as not being applicable because we don't involve individuals and that's just not a clear view of our presentation

28:19

Salvation by faith not by works. That's the focus in Romans chapter 9.

28:25

It's by grace Not law Paul's contrast in Romans 9 is not monergism versus synergism

28:33

I believe those are man -made terms used to reframe this debate throughout the entire letter

28:38

Paul has contrasted the salvation of those who pursue righteousness by works through law

28:43

Versus those who pursue righteousness by grace through faith, which in general is a contrast between the

28:50

Jews and the Gentiles Okay, so in summary

28:56

Professor flowers begins his Introduction to his opening remarks and he wants to point out that the focus of chapter 9 is a contrast between salvation by grace and Against salvation by works.

29:12

So salvation by grace and not by works He rejects the labels of monergism and synergism as a false premise man -made terms and then he says that the entire letter is about righteousness through law versus grace and faith and Claims a general contrast that is presented between the

29:32

Jews representing by law and the Gentiles representing by faith

29:40

Now on to James's presentation, we're going to go ahead and play that clip and see how he opens up The test from my perspective this evening is the test of consistency

29:54

Who is going to present a consistent perspective who is able to apply the exact same method of hermeneutics and exegesis

30:02

To this text that we would apply to any other text in regards to the resurrection the deity of Christ the

30:08

Trinity the atonement Etc, etc Who is going to be consistent in their handling of the text of scripture this evening?

30:15

Now as I open up Romans chapter 9 with you the exegesis that I will offer to you needs to be the same

30:22

Exegesis that I would give in a mosque in South Africa in the

30:27

East London mosque in in a meeting with atheists a debate with Roman Catholics or a

30:34

Classroom at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary though. I'm only welcome in four out of those five places It needs to be

30:42

It needs to be consistent and it needs to be something that you hold me to As you consider everything else that we believe as Christians and how we handle the

30:53

Word of God in those other areas Okay, so in summary of dr.

30:58

White's introduction to his opening remarks he is focusing on the need for consistency in the method he

31:07

Shows a test of consistency that the handling of the text needs to be something that is faithful.

31:13

Will you? When you're over here Do you handle the scriptures the same way as you would over here if the issue were not

31:24

Calvinism and the issue was about The deity of Christ and this comes up in the debate in the cross -examination even if professor flowers was in fact debating a

31:41

Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon Seemed about dr. White do both. I Challenge you go back and listen go back and watch those either one of those debates.

31:51

They're on YouTube See if dr. White departs from the same methodology that he uses here in this debate tonight

32:00

It needs to be the same as I said before whether you're on the street corner or you're behind the sacred desk

32:10

Now let's go ahead and continue with professor flowers's continuation as he continues and he is going to begin with a focal text as he begins

32:20

Romans chapter 9 in his Presentation the substance of it. He begins with his focus on Romans 9 30 through 32

32:31

Yeah, that's it the end. Well, we'll go to the end. Well for what it's worth.

32:37

This is what it has to say What shall we say then that Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness attained righteousness even the righteousness

32:44

Which is by faith, but Israel pursuing a law of righteousness did not arrive at that law

32:49

Why because they did not pursue it by faith But as though it were by works

32:56

They stumbled over the stumbling stone So with that we're going to go ahead and play the next section in professor flowers

33:06

Presentation this is why Paul summarizes this chapter in verse 30 and following by Contrasting the

33:15

Gentiles who are attaining righteousness versus the Israelites who are not and why?

33:21

Why isn't Israel attaining righteousness? Is it because God doesn't really love them God hasn't chosen them God has destined them from hell before birth.

33:28

Is that why it's not what the scripture says verse 32 tells us exactly why?

33:34

They are not attaining righteousness Quote because they did not pursue it by faith, but though it were by works

33:43

God clearly desires all Israel and every single Israelite including the hardened ones to be saved and I want to prove that point

33:51

Okay, he says he's gonna prove that point and he has just now doubled down on his previous section say using 30 through 31 as the

34:03

Place to take his stand Romans 9 is about Israel the law and Gentiles by faith he started at the end.

34:17

Is this reading it backwards? I Submit to you. It's leapfrogging because he's just leapfrogged the entire

34:25

Everything that came before here's the tactic folks that the tactic is that I'm gonna go to the end and I'm going to use the conclusion that the writer uses

34:38

But I'm gonna get there a whole different way and I'm gonna ignore all of what he had to say in getting here

34:47

Usually jump into the end is a red flag should be a red flag for you to understand that there's a problem in how the this presenter is already attacking or taking

35:03

Don't coming to the text So again, let's we've got leapfrogging already going on we're just a few minutes into the debate

35:11

Let's go ahead and listen as James He opens well, he doesn't open up in Romans 9 either hmm

35:22

Well, let's listen to where he does open up because he opens up before Romans 9 starting in verse 28 of chapter 8

35:30

Remember and he'll point this out the verse divisions in your Bible didn't come along until 1551 so Frankly, it's one of those unfortunate places in which there's a chapter division in in a place.

35:45

It just doesn't belong So starting in verse 28 Let's read it into your hearing and we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love

35:54

God To those who are called according to his purpose for those him whom he foreknew

35:59

He also predestined to become conformed to the image of his son So that he would be the firstborn among many brethren and these whom he

36:08

Predestined he also called and these whom he called he also justified and these whom he justified

36:14

He also glorified what then shall we say to these things if God is for us who is against us?

36:21

He who did not spare his own son, but delivered him over for us all how will he not also with him freely?

36:28

Give us all things Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies who is the one who condemns?

36:37

Christ Jesus is he who died? Yes, rather who was raised who is at the right hand of God who also intercedes for us?

36:45

Who will separate us from the love of Christ will tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword?

36:53

Just it is written as it is written for your sake. We are being put to death all day long

36:58

We are considered sheep as sheep to be slaughtered But in all these things we overwhelmingly

37:04

Conquer through him who loves it loved us for I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor Principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other created thing

37:16

Will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our

37:22

Lord Now, let's see how closely dr. White sticks to the text

37:31

So I'd ask you to open your Bibles I'm actually gonna start outside of Romans 9 in Romans 8 We have to do that Most of you are aware of the fact that chapter and verse divisions are a later additions the final verse divisions

37:42

We're not added until 1551 and we need to look a little bit before Romans 9 to get the context and what is the context?

37:49

Well, we know about the golden chain of redemption in Romans chapter 8. We know that Paul talks about those whom

37:55

God for ordained those whom he predestined These ones also he called those whom he called these he also

38:03

Justified and those who he justified these he also glorified. Why do I mention this? These are soteriological terms

38:10

These are terms that have to do with salvation especially when we look at terms such as justification and therefore

38:17

Please note the use of the term Eccleson in verse 30 he called that term is going to be seen more than once this evening

38:24

And what is that calling and if the calling of verse 30 of chapter 8 is?

38:30

Soteriological because it results in the next step is justification and hence it does have to do with personal salvation

38:37

Then will anything be presented that tells us that we have shifted subjects that we're no longer talking about the soteriology of chapter 8

38:45

Likewise in verses 31 and following we have the law court and we have the question asked in those verses

38:51

Who will bring a charge against whom God's elect? Well, what's the charge have to do with it has to do with condemnation who is the one who will condemn

38:58

God's elect? It's Christ Jesus who died who was raised again. All of this is clearly in regards to Salvation itself the salvation of individuals and the salvation of the elect as a group

39:10

So this is the context that we have going into chapter 9 Okay, so now we have the presentations will begin in parallel so Professor flowers began with Romans 8 or Romans 9 30 or 32

39:30

Dr. White begins with Romans 8 28 through 39 One goes to the end.

39:36

The other goes to the very beginning context context

39:43

Context that's the key folks context context context so now with that said fasten your seatbelts because we're about to go into both debaters now starting at verse 1 and carrying on we're going to begin with professor flowers, and I'm going to read the text into your hearing and Pay attention to the text it's important I'm telling you the truth in Christ.

40:10

I am NOT lying My conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart

40:18

For I could wish that I myself were accursed separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren my kinsmen according to the flesh

40:26

Who are? Israelites to whom belongs the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the

40:33

Giving of the law and the temple service and the promises Whose are the fathers and from whom is the

40:40

Christ according to the flesh who is overall God blessed forever amen,

40:45

I Submit to you that what you're about to view is Where the bait -and -switch occurs, that's right.

40:52

That sounds harsh But a new narrative is about to begin

40:58

You're going to find that Professor flowers is about to take off on the longest portion of His presentation it will amount to 8 minutes and 46 seconds 8 minutes 46 seconds and He will spend

41:19

More than 40 % of his time outside of the text So as I play this,

41:25

I'm I'm gonna start and stop it I'm gonna interact with it because there's some things here that need to be pointed out along the way so with that said

41:37

Let's go ahead and play the clip at the beginning of Romans 9

41:44

Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit Expresses a self -sacrificial love for the hardened unbelieving

41:50

Jews Which sounds a lot like Jesus to me one who was willing to sacrifice himself to give himself up for all his enemies

41:59

Is Paul more self -sacrificial than the Lord who inspires him to write these words, I don't think so Okay, I'm gonna stop right there already

42:08

Less than 30 seconds in to this presentation in is he starts to interact with the text?

42:15

He's read a portion of it and then he asked this question and I gotta tell you

42:20

I've listened to this debate over and over and over I've listened to this the introductions over and over and over and It wasn't until recently that I just can't wait.

42:29

Wait a minute Why is he asking this question is? Jesus more

42:37

Sarah self -sacrificial than Paul Actually, I think that I wrote it down that way, but I think if I recall his

42:46

His question was is Paul more self -sacrificial than Jesus Who's asking that question?

42:55

I? Don't know of anybody Who's ever raised this as a legitimate question

43:04

So then why ask it he asks it because he needs a jumping -off point

43:12

He needs some kind of springboard to get him out of this text

43:18

And that is exactly what's about to happen in the very next chapter

43:25

Paul states plainly in verse 1 My prayer to God for Israel is for their salvation

43:30

And then he ends the chapter quoting from Isaiah from the very lips of God himself all day long

43:36

I have stretched out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people. It looks like a father holding out his hands to a child

43:43

That's the image that we have from Paul Paul also quotes from Hosea in the context in Romans chapter 9 and if you look at Hosea and in that context

43:52

Hosea says It even more plainly he says even as the Lord loves the sons of Israel Though they turn to other gods love and turning

44:04

And Jesus even weeps over Israel because they have become blinded so their unbelief is

44:10

Clearly not because God doesn't love them or want his elect nation to be saved This is the nation according to verses 4 and 5 that has been entrusted with the very words of God The Messiah and his message were ordained to come through Israel They are chosen and elected for that noble cause for that noble purpose

44:30

So, why did Israel reject their own Messiah, why did they stand in opposition to his word?

44:36

I believe the reason most of Israel has rejected their own Messiah is because God has

44:41

Hardened them in their rebellion. He has blinded them from recognizing their own

44:47

Messiah and He does so not because he doesn't love them or he doesn't desire for their salvation

44:54

He is hardening them for the exact opposite reason. He is hardening them in love

44:59

And I want to prove that point tonight Paul explains in chapter 11 that he has set is sent

45:05

Israel a spirit of stupor he has given them over to their calloused self -righteous hearts and He has pushed them out almost like a parent would push out a rebellious teenager

45:18

He has pushed Israel out. He has cut them off This is a doctrine that is called judicial hardening and it is a woefully misunderstood doctrine in Western Christianity today

45:28

And if there was one doctrine that led me to recant Calvinism, this is it. So I went on And so he wants to unpack it is what he's about to say well, that's judicial hardening

45:40

So we got about 30 seconds from Romans 9 1 through 5 and only a part of that and now we've jumped off into a whole different narrative

45:50

Hence my phrase bait -and -switch Because that's what happened here Yeah, as dr.

45:57

White described it in the description that we put on the YouTube video of our version of this

46:03

Professor flowers didn't want to debate Romans chapter 9. He wanted to debate the issue of total depravity now in the

46:12

In the cross -examination, dr White is going to ask him some questions about judicial hardening and if you don't know what that actually means

46:21

Is it's yeah, I find it amazing that he he gets in there and and he says That this is the major reason why he left

46:29

Calvinism and that is woefully misunderstood woefully misunderstood

46:36

Professor flowers, I would suggest that you have a woeful Misunderstanding of judicial hardening and dr.

46:42

White tried to correct you on that, but you weren't having any you weren't having any you see this is where the in the next segment believe it or not, he's gonna get out a ball of play -doh and Unfortunately, I forgot it at home this morning, but I went to the store and I grabbed my own ball of play -doh

47:03

So I'm gonna have to do an imaginary ball of play -doh Because this is what professor flowers just did so that you get it.

47:11

We take this is your Bible This bottle of play -doh is your Bible and we're gonna pluck off a section.

47:17

That is Romans 9 Put it down mash it down really good. All right, and now we're gonna pluck off.

47:24

Let's see here We're gonna pluck off Romans 10 1021

47:29

Isaiah 65 to Hosea 3 1 mark 1 40 through 44. We're gonna pluck off mark 8 29 to 30

47:36

Matthew 8 1 16 through 16 through 20 we're gonna

47:42

Get Luke 5 we're gonna get Luke 9 We're gonna get acts 28 favorite part to camp out on here acts 28 and then 27 through 28

47:53

And we're gonna mash it all up together and we're gonna take it smack it over the top of Romans chapter 9

47:58

Then mash it down real good. And guess what? We got a whole new debate a whole new debate

48:05

And now I can talk about what I really want to talk about This is what

48:11

I'm getting at when I talk about the method take a look.

48:18

Take a look right there Get over there what's on that desk? Professor flowers did a lot of work in preparing this message

48:29

And that's a three -ring binder in front of him and he's reading every bit of it word for word This is not a mistake

48:38

This is a narrative and this is the problem we run into when we run into preachers who come across texts that they don't like and So they will preach anything but and say they did that's not honest to me

49:03

What you just did here isn't honest professor flowers. This is what the cults do.

49:13

I take a Mormon to Colossians chapter 1 and 2 and I talk about the deity of Christ and he's the one who created all things

49:24

And they want to run somewhere else you take a Jehovah's Witness to that same place.

49:30

They want to run somewhere else or They'll change it all other things Let's take that play -doh and mash in some different words and totally change the meaning this should not be named among us

49:45

It really shouldn't is this

49:52

God's sacred word to you or is it play -doh? He wants to get after judicial hardening a couple of things about that He's already way down the road and you as a listener don't even realize it the judicial hardening doesn't take place in Romans chapter 9 until verses 17 and 18 and Judicial hardening in Romans 9 isn't about Israel It's about Pharaoh That's right.

50:33

It's about Pharaoh not Israel You can run off to these other texts where God did put

50:39

Israel under judgment and talks about that where the Bible talks about judicial hardening punishing but Pharaoh Was put there for a reason according to Romans 9 17 and 18

51:00

He's not Israelite we know that but Pharaoh Might as Moses stood before him the first time might have let his people go not likely

51:15

But the first plague comes along The first pestilence that comes along He might have let his people go

51:25

But God wasn't done with Pharaoh yet, so he judicially hardened him

51:33

Judicially hardened him and Moses came one more time said let my people go and another plague came

51:42

And Moses said let my people go and God Judicially hardened him.

51:51

We're gonna hear professor flowers put things together That don't go together

52:00

The depravity of a man's heart Comes from his sin nature.

52:05

We as Calvinists talk about the deadness of man in sin That's right.

52:11

The deadness of man in sin He's born this way if you want to say we're born this way and he actually will argue this is at the end

52:20

That you get to you get to hold that against God, even though if you actually read chapter

52:28

That's exactly the yeah, that is the argument of the detractor of Paul's critic But Pharaoh is the one that this is about Pharaoh is the one judicially hardened and yeah, he's a dead sinner but there's something different going on there than him simply being a man dead in his sin, but For you to be able to make your case professor flowers

52:54

It is clear to me you couldn't do it by separating these concepts so you had to put them all together

53:01

Dr. White challenged you on this and your answer to it was it's a distinction without a difference

53:07

Excuse me in our land today.

53:13

I see God Judicially hardening our leaders right and left as you watch our leaders in the church

53:21

Compromise right and left Danny Cortez and homosexuality You don't think that isn't the result of judicially hardening the land

53:29

I do Churches falling into apostasy right and left.

53:36

You don't think that's the result of judicial hardening Deadmen leading religions leading churches and compromising right and left with the word because they're not interested it's

53:54

Not a sacred text to them either They'll use it. However, they see fit and whenever they need to and My claim to you professor flowers is just like you starting to do here

54:08

You will use if you'll do it on the subject of Calvinism you'll do it whenever it suits you and Somebody taught you to do this and professor flowers is a professor at Dallas Baptist University, that means he's teaching the next generation of preachers that this is okay

54:31

And I'm telling you sir, it's never okay ever There is no text of Scripture that does not first and foremost have an immediate context that we need to submit to Even if it's hard to understand

54:48

Even if it's hard for us to wrap our minds around it. We need to do that first We need to not be doing what you're doing here and running away from it we're short on time

55:00

So let's continue on here There we go,

55:07

I think There we go. I want to unpack it. Those are gonna see this lump of clay, which is actually here comes

55:13

I know I stole from my seven -year -old It's going to represent the lump of clay we see in Romans 9

55:22

Okay Stop there. Not long. Yeah, I see why James does this so often

55:29

He's got his clay in his hand and the clay represents He's gonna tell you hardened

55:36

Israel But the clay isn't presented the potter and clay isn't presented in Romans 9.

55:43

He says this is the clay in Romans 9 It's what he just said Rewind it Okay, watch it the clay isn't presented until verses 20 and 21

55:55

Now he doesn't actually ever get to 20 and 21 in this presentation But the clay isn't about hardened

56:05

Israel the clay is about vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy and He's using already this phrase noble cause

56:16

But God has a noble cause but you see Inverses 20 and 21

56:25

The clay represents the same lump that the potter can make vessels for noble causes

56:35

And vessels for common causes as James has said so many times and does say so in this next portion or when we get to 20 and 21 the potter gets to make a beautiful lace a vessel a

56:52

Vessel That is for honorable use and he also gets to make a chamber pot and If you maybe are too young to know what a chamber pot is

57:05

Look it up. I'll let you go from there So we have just a couple more minutes left

57:11

I want to just go ahead and do a little bit more here and then I'm gonna wrap up and we'll continue next week But let's take on a little bit more of this this line of thinking from Professor Flowers and remember the context the actual context of both judicial hardening real judicial hardening and the potter in the clay and Then watch how he treats it

57:33

According to the Calvinist this lump of clay Represents all of humanity all of which is born hell -bound due to the fall in Adam in essence

57:40

What Calvinist teach is that all people are born judicially hardened unable to see hear understand and turn to God now

57:47

They're not as evil Calvinist will say as they could be but they are definitely as unable Corpse like dead dead like Lazarus not dead like the prodigal son like Jesus says but dead like Lazarus in the tomb dead

57:57

According to Calvinist they are in this condition ultimately because God so decreed it as Calvin himself put it

58:04

Some are predestined to eternal life others to eternal damnation doomed from the womb Banished from birth.

58:13

So even well, I guess the computers gonna go ahead and have me finish up there anyway

58:18

But I'm glad we at least got that last section in there doomed from the womb banished from birth no melodrama here is

58:30

So anyway I'm gonna wrap up for today and I appreciate you joining me for this hour.

58:37

I'm gonna pick up here We're at 8 minutes and 39 seconds into the remix. So I'm the only one that has the remix

58:45

So if you're gonna be looking for that time mark, you're not gonna find it in in the actual video

58:51

We're not going to be in the same spot. But at least in this particular section, I'm gonna write that down He missed 39 seconds.

58:58

We'll pick up maybe rewind a little bit and and pick up professor flowers his presentation on Tuesday And I have recorded this one because I wasn't quite sure how well the tech in all this was going to work

59:10

I'm running the show by myself and I'm you know doing all the transitions over here. You can actually see my hands moving around and I'm appreciative of things moving forward

59:21

James actually asked me earlier in the week So this mean that I'll be able to do the show by myself and I'm like,

59:28

I don't know. I don't know well, we'll see but We'll we'll go from there

59:34

I appreciate you being with me and I appreciate you bearing with me as I've done my first dividing line in goodness

59:40

I'm gonna say 15 years and I certainly never done it really in front of the camera and it's been a blessing to be able to do this

59:48

It's been my privilege and I want to continue on with this because the word God is precious to me

59:54

And and I hope it's precious to you You But Well, we'll go from there

01:00:14

I appreciate you being with me and I appreciate you bearing with me as I've done my first dividing line in goodness

01:00:20

I'm gonna say 15 years and I certainly never done it really in front of the camera

01:00:26

And it's been a blessing to be able to do this It's been my privilege and I want to continue on with this because the word