Questions For Charismatics (rerun)

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ based on the theme in Galatians 2 verse 5 where the

Apostle Paul said, But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered -down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

King. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry. Kind of waking up a little bit here, coffee in hand, reading glasses on.

I pretty much cannot, at 52 years old, I cannot read anything without my glasses.

What is going on? I feel like Elvis Costello or something. I need to have my glasses on.

He's got glasses. Well, today is a topic that some of you will absolutely love and other people will absolutely shiver in their timbers.

So what are we going to talk about today? I have some questions for my charismatic friends, questions for the continuationist.

If cessationism means the Bible teaches that, well, let's put it this way.

Cessationism comes from the word cease, that the sign gift, supernatural sign gifts that were given to people in the

New Testament have ceased. Continuationists believe that what was done in all the

Bible and all the miracles on a regular basis, they think was done on a regular basis, and that in fact, they are supposed to be expected, that they're normal and to be expected even now that they continue.

So today on No Compromise Radio, I'm going to be putting God in a box. That's basically what people say.

If you ever are critiquing charismatic theology or continuationist theology, that the signs and gifts and wonders through people still exist, that's a continuationist, that I'm putting

God in a box. Well, frankly, I'm not putting God in any box. I don't know how

I could actually do that. Last time I checked, that was frail, finite, sinful, and not omnipotent.

But what they mean is that somehow I'm constricting God and putting him in something that he's not placed himself.

But in fact, God is restrained and constrained by his own nature, is he not?

By his own word, by his own character. And so if God has placed himself in the box of scripture, as it were, see how you just get out of things by you say, as it were, then

I'm not putting him in any box. I'm trying to teach you what the Bible teaches about God himself.

And so since I am convinced that charismatic practices aren't helpful for you spiritually, theologically,

I don't think they help you mature and grow like you could if you were a cessationist.

Then I'm going to try to convince you. And so then you can try to convince me. And if you want to say

I'm a liar because I'm sweating, like was said to me at the door the other day after I got done preaching, you could say anything you'd like.

But what we're after is, I was going to say dialogue, but we're after is back and forth, give and take.

And so see the radio works out perfect for that because I talk and you have to listen. Of course you can email me.

If you call me, I probably won't take the calls unless it's a donation line. Just kidding.

I probably won't take the calls because I'm a pastor and that's, that's my job really is being a pastor.

This is just part time. This is just, it's my hobby. Can you imagine no compromise radio is my hobby?

In one sense it is. In my family, we've got a lot of new listeners out there probably coming up on a million downloads.

How about that for throwing numbers out? I got 15 campuses. I'm on 19 stations and I've got a million downloads.

They all happen to be my own downloads just because I'm trying to download them over and over so my numbers get up.

But today we're talking about Christian charismatics. Did you notice I did not say pagan charismatics,

Christian charismatics, my brothers in the Lord, my sisters in the

Lord. And I know what you're going to do automatically. You're going to start listening. You're going to say, that's unloving.

You are being divisive. You are putting God in a box. You are a rationalist.

You are an opposer. You're a poser. You're a skeptic. I'm supposed to examine all things carefully.

Am I not? Examine all things, hold fast to that which is good, abstain from every form of evil.

That is what I am supposed to do. So please don't stop me from doing that.

And since again, it's my show, then I kind of get to do that. I'm not saying that charismatics are unbelievers.

Some are. Some cessationists are unbelievers. I'm not saying that charismatics are of the devil.

Maybe some are. I don't know. But certainly what I am trying to say is even with your good motives and your good desires,

I still think that at the end of the day, cessationism is true, not continuationism.

That is to say, certainly I believe God does miracles today.

God does healing today, but not through people who have the gift of healing that was like the gift of healing in the

New Testament. Not through the gift of miracles that was like the gift of miracles in the

New Testament. In other words, God used to give gifts to people so that they could do those things to confirm the messenger and the message, to authenticate it, to validate it, especially in the times of Moses and Joshua, Elijah and Elisha, and Jesus and the apostles.

What I am saying today is I believe God does miracles, but no one has the gift of miracles. God does healings, but no one has the gift of healings because it's not needed because we have the scriptures.

The sign was pointing to validate the messenger. Now we already have that. So here are some questions. I've talked about all this stuff before, so I have to get to my questions, otherwise it's going to turn into some multi -part show.

To the law and to the testament. Number one, won't you admit to some cessationism? To my charismatic friends, in all honesty, won't you admit to some cessationism?

And I think you do. I think the thinking charismatics, I'm thinking about the Mahanys and the

Grudems and the Pipers, right? Those thinking charismatics, the ones that I have respect for, they believe in some cessationism because the canon of scripture is closed.

We're not trying to add new revelation to the scriptures. The canon is closed.

So C, won't you admit to some cessationism? And I think, in fact, the answer would be yes. Furthermore, are there apostles for today?

Now you might say there are of a different kind, but I don't think you will. I think you can see that the apostles,

Ephesians 2 .20, we're at the foundation of the church. We're no longer building the foundation of the church 2 ,000 years later.

It's the roof or something that we're building. Lord's building through us, of course, is the right terminology.

And so apostles have ceased. Remember when it comes to apostles, who are we supposed to appoint in every church now?

Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3. Who do you call for if you need healing done because you're spiritually weak?

James 5. You call the elders. You appoint elders. You appoint elders. Why would you appoint an elder if you had apostles today?

I'd say appoint apostles. That would sure solve a lot of problems. If only a real apostle were around today, that would solve the problem.

And so cessationism teaches that the canon is closed. And I think a thinking charismatic should think that, too.

Cessationism teaches that apostolic succession happened, and then now it's over.

It has, in fact, stopped. We have a completed canon. We have a sufficient Bible. And we have everything we needed for the church.

And so since Revelation has been completed, why do we need signs to point us into...

I've got my notes actually kind of mixed up right here. ...point us in that direction?

And again, cessationism does not mean miracles and healings have ceased, but it means that these extraordinary sign gifts of the first century through people who have the gift have ceased.

Completion of the New Testament or the death of the last apostle has ceased. 17th century confessions would say, for instance, the

Westminster and Baptist confessions, former ways of God revealing his will unto us, unto his people, being now ceased.

That's what that means. Phil Johnson said, if you believe any of the miraculous spiritual gifts were operative in the apostolic era only, and that some or all of those gifts gradually ceased before the end of the first century, you are a cessationist.

So you're trying to say that I think God's a deist? No, I'm not trying to say God's a deist at all.

God doesn't just wind it up and let it go, but God had these things for a reason, and we are not to normally expect supernatural sign gifts through people because they were for that time when the scriptures had not been completed.

God does heal today, but there's no such thing as a gift of healing. So you have some cessationism today because the

Bible is complete and the apostolic folks are gone. You say, well, you need to show me a

Bible verse, Mike, that says the apostles are gone. You need to show me a

Bible verse that says the Bible's complete. You need to show me a Bible verse that says that these sign gifts have ceased.

Now, see, that all sounds pretty good, but how about if you give me a

Bible verse that says the sign gifts continue through the church age?

Give me a Bible verse that proves, that explains the doctrine of the Trinity.

Hmm? See, it's not that simple. It's not that simple. We can use systematic theology driven from an extraction of data from the text exegetically.

Bible complete? You believe it's complete, but there's not a verse that says the Bible's complete. Oh, you can go to Revelation 22 and say, don't add to the words of the prophecy of this book speaking of Revelation.

And I think by implication of the New Testament, true. Question two for my charismatic friends, are the sign gifts that allegedly happened today of the same kind and type of those that happened in the

New Testament? So here's what happens. I think the charismatic is going to say, the thinking charismatic, even with prophecy,

Wayne Grudem talking about errant prophecy. The answer to the question is, if you think that there's errant prophecy, then the sign gifts that happened in the

New Testament are different than the ones that happened today. Because the New Testament sign gifts have ceased.

If they're a different kind and type, then they've ceased. And it further proves that you're a cessationist. See you're on that slippery road to cessationist.

Now some people think, oh, that's dry, old, intellectual, dead orthodoxy. Someone said to me this week, well, if you take it too far, you got to have be balanced.

You know, everything's balanced. There's no balance factor that holds true for everything in this world.

You've got to be balanced. Yes, of course, in some things you have to be balanced, but you're either a cessationist or you're a continuationist.

And if you're a hair continuationist, you are a continuationist. You're either ceased or you continue.

You're either alive or you're dead. You can't be just a little alive. You're either alive or dead.

You're either a cessationist or a continuationist. If you drink Pete's coffee, I'll sit down and have a coffee with you.

If you buy, add a shot. But the sign gifts that happened in the

New Testament aren't the same kind that happened today. Blinding people, raising Dorcas from the dead, transporting people 10 miles over into Azotos, Acts 8,

Day of Pentecost, mighty wind, tongues of fire, pronouncing people dead because of their hypocrisy,

Acts chapter 5. Entire multitudes healed, people getting the shadow of a person and then now they're healed.

They are of a different kind and type. Therefore, you're a cessationist. Raising Eutychus from the dead,

Acts chapter 20, falling three stories off the ground. John Wimber talked about a man he raised from the dead who fell and hit his head, became unconscious for three minutes and came to with a bump on his head.

Prayed for him, the bump went away. One man said, Thomas Edgar said, after Wimber and others prayed, the bump eventually went away.

This is incredible, not as a miracle, but that anyone would consider this as possibly raising the dead. Would anyone have been convinced by such a miracle that Jesus was the son of God or that apostles represented

God? Of course not. That's why

I respect Wayne Grudem. His book, Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today, Crossway, no responsible charismatic holds the view that prophecy today is infallible and an errant revelation from God.

Page 111. See, page 112, it's a lesser kind of prophecy.

And so the real prophetic gifts in the New Testament have ceased. God's no longer giving revelation.

You concede the argument. You say, you know what, miracles of the

New Testament kind have ceased. Healings of the New Testament kinds have ceased. The apostles in the

New Testament have ceased. The Bible is complete.

Then you have conceded the argument of cessationism. No one can duplicate apostolic power today.

Question three for my charismatic friends. Since we have the completed canon, what is the purpose of the alleged sign gifts today?

What's the purpose? If the purpose was of a sign gift to point, signs point to something, to confirm the message and the messenger,

Moses does the sign so that they know he's the spokesperson for God. Elijah does the sign so people realize that he's telling people what

God says. Jesus is a man attested by God for supernatural signs and wonders,

Acts chapter 2, verse 22. Why are these things happening today?

If they're to confirm and affirm a message while scripture is being written, before we have the complete canon, why are they being done today?

Why is there a healing show going on down at the Civic Auditorium or the DCU Center? B .B.

Warfield said there is an inseparable connection of miracles, of miracles with revelation as its mark or credential.

Miracles do not appear on the page of scripture, I love this next word, vaguely here, there and everywhere, indifferently without assignable reason.

They belong to revelation periods and appear only when God is speaking to his people through accredited messengers.

Their abundant display in the apostolic church is the mark of the richness of that age in revelation and when this revelation period closed, the period of miracle working has passed by also as a matter of course.

Isn't that good, B .B. Warfield? They don't just appear vaguely, they appear for a reason to accredit the messengers.

That's exactly right. No wonder Paul said in 2 Corinthians 12, the signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance by signs and wonders and miracles.

Those are my credentials, Corinthians. Those are my credentials.

God also bearing witness with them by both signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the

Holy Spirit according to his own will, Hebrews chapter 2 verse 4.

Friends, this is No Compromise Radio Ministry, info at nocompromiseradio .com. I don't hate charismatics,

I'm not angry with charismatics, but I'm trying to convince you not to be a charismatic. Can I just be honest?

Can I just be open? Of course I can and you would try to convince me to be a charismatic. Okay, so what's wrong with that?

Back in the old days, the mainstream evangelical belief was cessationism.

But the times are a changing. Calvary Chapel has influenced that, Vineyard has influenced that, of course

Azusa Street has influenced that, Sovereign Grace, Acts 29, they've all influenced that.

And so mainline evangelicalism today is pretty much of the charismatic sort.

Number four. Question four for my charismatic friends. Since the Bible is our final and only authority, then why try to prove your point through your experience?

I alluded to this earlier, I made a direct statement to it earlier. If you tell me that you know somebody,

Paul Washer went down to Africa someplace and met some guy who preached for three days in a language he never learned.

And then once he left, he didn't remember the language anymore. You have a friend in Madagascar or someplace over in Sri Lanka and they spoke in tongues and God said something out loud or somebody was raised from the dead.

The Bible is our only final authority. So, so what you're telling me,

I mean, I can say it back to you. I've not experienced that, therefore it's not true. Well, you'd say to me, that's not a valid argument.

I know it's just as invalid as your argument that you heard an anecdotal story about something and therefore it's true.

What do the scriptures teach? The scriptures teach that the sign gifts were given to accredit the minister and to accredit his message as being validated by God.

Something supernaturally done, gift by the spirit of God through the people in times of revelation.

Moses, Joshua, Elijah, Elisha, Jesus and the apostles. Combine all those together, you've got about a hundred years of miracles.

Miracles aren't regular, or they'd be called regulars. I think Patton said that, not

George. Question five for my charismatic friends. What does it say about sign gifts if for 1800 years

God sovereignly did not see fit to use them? So God in his wisdom has not used them for 1800 years and now we've got 1906 with Azusa and all that stuff.

What does church history teach? And church history teaches something very, very fascinating. Are you ready for church history today?

What does church history teach us? That pagans used sign gifts in the last 1800 years.

Alleged sign gifts, that is. If you go back to church history, Clement of Rome writes a letter to the

Corinthians in 95 AD, tongues not mentioned. Origen, right around 200

AD, said the signs of the apostolic age were temporary and none of those gifts existed like the

New Testament gifts. Chrysostomum, where we get the word mouth, golden mouth,

Christo gold, stone, mouth. I always thought stone would be better stomach, but I guess the mouth is the opening to the stomach.

Talks about obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation. About 350

AD, Augustine, tongue speaking, was a miracle suitable for the early church and not evident in his own time.

So friends, 420 AD, outside crazy people, cult people, cessationism was the position of the church for centuries, for over a millennium, almost two millennium.

Yes, the seven old priests in France spoke in tongues. They were heretics. The shakers, they spoke in tongues.

They were heretics. The Mormon church speaks in tongues. They're heretics.

Shamans, witch doctors, voodoo practitioners, Shinto priests, they speak in tongues.

Ancient tradition even reports that Muhammad himself spoke in tongues, Charles Smith's Tongues in Biblical Perspective, page 20 to 21.

Questions for my charismatic friends. Why did Paul try to defend his apostolic ministry by using special authenticating sign gifts?

If everybody was doing them, then why would Paul say, yeah, but listen to me, I'm an apostle because these things were linked together with the apostles.

Everybody falls out of a window in Troas, call the apostle. Who could raise that person from the dead?

Anybody, everybody, lots of people, one person in that room could have done it. Paul. Number seven, why doesn't the

Bible speak of appointing apostles today in churches? Our prophets are healers. Like I said earlier, you go to first Timothy, you go to Titus, let's appoint apostles today.

Let's appoint prophets today. Let's appoint healers today. We could sure use those three ministries today from the human perspective, but God knows we don't need them because we have the

Bible. Questions eight, question eight for my charismatic friends. Why do you regularly use

Hebrews 13, eight to prove there are miraculous gifts today? Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Now here's what the charismatic continuationist tries to do. That what Jesus did in the past, he does now and he does in the future.

Talking about the gifts, tongues in the past, there'll be tongues in the future. Now, acts two aside, let's talk about tongues in the future.

Will there be tongues in heaven? You say, yeah, angelic tongues. Okay. All right.

Let's just continue to work through this gallus in your mind. If you've got a, maybe you've got a

Charlie horse in your mind, as Lewis would say. Will there be, were there healings in the old

Testament? Yes. Healings in the new Testament? Yes. Will there be healings in heaven? Uh, see,

I gotcha. Same yesterday, today, and forever. How about miracles? How about people being raised from the dead in heaven?

Well, let's actually look at what this context says in Hebrews chapter 13. It says in the verse before that, and that's nice to figure out context like that.

Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you, consider the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.

So remember your leaders. Think back about their life and their death, what they taught you, how they imitated the faith.

Of course they were frail, infallible, sinful, finite, but they lived out the faith because God had saved them, regenerated them, and they were worthy examples in the most part.

But you know, they, they were stumbling to some degree. They weren't perfect. And so therefore

Paul, excuse me, the writer of Hebrew says, Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever,

Jesus Christ. He never changes. Leaders come and go, but Jesus Christ never dies.

Your old pastor baptized you, died, but Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

He's never going to change forever into the ages. No matter what happens in the future,

Jesus is Captain King and he will be there. Your old pastor's dead and gone.

Jesus is alive. So charismatic friends, I love you. Those are my questions for you.

I have other questions for you, but we won't have time for those today. My name is Mike Abendroth.

This is No Compromise Radio Ministry. You can write me, info at nocompromiseradio .com, and we will talk to you tomorrow.

No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life transforming power of God's word through verse by verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 10 .15 and in the evening at 6. We're right on route 110 in West Boylston.

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