November 29, 2007

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341 And now with today's topic here is

James White And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon once again, unfortunately the last dividing line for a while until December 11th sounds like a long time, but November is almost over this weekend.

I will be at Covenant of Grace Church in St. Charles, Missouri should have put that on the blog, but that would be like updating the calendar page which

Just shouldn't be done. I don't know why but anyway, but maybe I can get that up there because some people might want to know and Show up and then again doing it the day before you're supposed to be there.

So I dumb but anyway, I will be there tomorrow evening Lord willing and Three sessions on Saturday and then

Sunday morning as well before flying home briefly and then heading out for those of you who

Defend what we what we do and support what we do Appreciate your prayers for the coming week have a very challenging task ahead of me in Delivering a large number of lectures on videotape that will be translated for satellite broadcast into foreign countries and This is a wonderful opportunity great opportunity tremendous opportunity, but it's going to be difficult

I confess that speaking with translation is not as easy as you might think it to be.

I Remember going down to Sao Paulo and that was first time I'd ever preached with translation and We are creatures of habit we get used to speaking in a particular way we have a particular cadence

I say things like various and sundry and everybody mocks me for that, but there's a simply ways that you speak and You just you can't do that when you are being translated you you have to be thinking is this an idiom

I need to avoid idioms. You know they even wrote to me and said you need to avoid

Americanisms and idioms phrases like walking the dog do not work well in countries where they eat dogs, and that was literally the example

So yeah, so you gotta keep that in mind and I've spoken with translation a number of times in Portuguese and into Italian This will be a completely different language one that will not make any sense to me whatsoever

So It's going to be challenging so pray for us We're talking about doing a large number of these video presentations, which means long days of heavy concentration which means

That middle -aged men start getting tired About halfway through that so pray that the

Lord will uphold us and most importantly that what we're doing Which will be a satellite broadcast to Christians who are under persecution of the lands will be of great benefit and assistance to them so Please please pray for us during that time, but that also means of course that there will be no

No dividing lines next week because they would both be taking place while I am doing those recordings

So just a little programming note there a couple things today 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is phone number here

I Wanted to comment Maybe briefly maybe a little longer.

I don't know on the encounter that has been taking place between Matt slick of karm and Tim Staples now

We we would love to arrange a formal debate with Tim Staples on the subject of the

Marian dogmas we'd love to Actually arrange a number of formal debates with folks and Catholic answers where we'd actually for example have a real moderator

Who might actually control? Tim and keep Tim from wandering about as he did in our last debate and Using cross -examination time to continue making statements and and to actually maybe ask questions during cross -examination.

That'd be a good thing, but We we'd like to do that, but every time we've contacted

Tim since he went over to Catholic answers He's just been too busy to do debates You know Carl wants him developing stuff and yet when we listen to the program

They're always trying to get rid of Tim trying to get him out into the into the various diocese and and parishes and stuff

And so we we have had some difficulties arranging anything with with good old

Tim But Tim's very happy to go on the air with other folks You know, we we've got these new microphones in here.

That's right Tim in studio. Sure. That'd be you know, come on over More than welcome to and I and I would be happy to go on Catholic answers live, too

I'd even get him a chair. That would be nice The chair would be good, but he could stand up if he wanted to but right now

They wouldn't work really well because I wrapped the other microphones and Christmas lights. So It's pretty it's sort of looks like from another planet, but anyway

So but for some reason Tim will go on with Steve Gregg and Matt slick and everybody else

But but anyway, so I've been listening I listened to the first encounter while riding a few weeks ago and I I don't want to start some massive inter -ministry fight here

Because I'm not going to bother to follow up with it Anyways, even if it's someone's started someone tried to start something today a

Church of Christ guy wrote to me and we get regular there's there's a group of Church of Christ apologists and a

Church of Christ apologists is a person who is capable of citing acts 238 at least 975 times in the course of at least two days worth of speaking

That is what makes you as what qualifies you to be a Church of Christ apologist because that's all he got I mean, let's face it when you listen to these two and three day long debates.

They want to do It's just basically Let's debate for 19 hours on the meaning of acts 238

It doesn't take 19 hours to exhaust all of the possible contextual and linguistic interpretations of acts 238 just doesn't

So they're sort of repetitive and and you know, there was a day when when

I would have you know When anybody would have challenged me I would have you know, sort of like back to the future, you know

Don't call me a chicken, you know Type of thing I'm well

Yeah, I'm well past that stage now and it's just sort of like I get these challenges. I'm like, yeah, right, whatever

And I I don't take him seriously. I'm sorry that the Church of Christ Honestly is not

Way up there on my list of really possible truth defenders

Pelagianism rank Pelagianism. I mean these every single one of these guys I've tried to get to deal with with the doctrine of election or any any texts outside of their pet texts and Only two years ago

We tried to do this when the Lynchburg thing fell through we tried to there was a Church Christ guy we tried to get to do a debate at our conference and we just couldn't arrange anything to where he'd be willing to seriously deal with John 6 and and Romans 9 and the key the key texts that deal with God's sovereignty and salvation.

So We've tried and I just I just don't find these folks So this guy wrote to me and I just wrote back saying

I'm not interested you know Discussing just these one handful of texts, which is all you guys ever do just isn't

Of any any interest to me and I guess within a matter of moments from when

I sent that back matter of minutes according to rich That was within 10 minutes that post was on the karm web boards

And then somebody else had already written to us and said you may be being misquoted or misrepresented here and no

That's what I said to him And boom all this stuff is exploding up with a place and I'm like, oh good grief, you know

And so it's obvious that the whole reason he'd written to me Anyways is is for a lot of these guys their entire resume is just how many people have ignored them that's you know about the best they have to offer and So anyway that that happened this morning but going back to the

Matt slick Tim Staples situation within five minutes

Maybe ten minutes of the starting of the first there's been three so far.

There's been three discussions They're supposed to be on the subject of salvation let me let me give my my my most important criticism first,

I Didn't finish listening to number three yesterday I actually turned it off to go back to a Muslim lecture because I was so sick and tired of The beating of the carcass of the dead horse the dead horse named.

What does necessary mean? If you've not listened to these then you don't know what

I'm talking about If you have then you do know what I'm talking about At least 40 minutes has been wasted and I consider wasted because I mean getting these guys out to where you can actually

You know make them answer questions is a pretty rare thing and so it's important and to spend all that time grousing about what necessary means

You know I could see Spending five minutes discussing and defining it but 40 over the course of two programs has just been ridiculous

But that wasn't my that's criticism, but that wasn't my main criticism I haven't listened to the end of number three because I just got too frustrated and has turned it off It was like now we're going back to this again.

We're never getting anywhere I just turned off went to something There would be more edifying so Maybe this happened at the end of number three.

I don't know but in my recollection I Do not recall hearing anyone and this would primarily be mr..

Six responsibility focusing the issue Between Roman Catholicism and the

Bible upon the only place where it can be focused upon and that is what is the nature of the? Righteousness which we have before God is it the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ?

Or is it a righteousness that is infused into us that we can grow in and that we can lose

Etc etc etc if you focus upon the fact that we are in Christ We have his righteousness the perfection of the new covenant all the rest that stuff

Then you're gonna get to the things that really matter But so far the things have been discussed were old law new law.

What's the nature of fulfillment of law? What's this that the other thing and and it just hasn't gone anywhere? It's been extremely frustrating and from my perspective within the first ten minutes even if Matt had never heard the six hours of Bible Answer Man programs that that I did with Tim Staples over the past decade or so Let alone the debates we did

The first ten minutes should have been sufficient to communicate to all concerned

That the Socratic method does not work with Tim Staples Okay asking questions of Tim Staples isn't how you deal with Tim Staples the man is not the most subtle fellow on the planet and He is just gonna keep going and going and I cannot tell you how many times

I've been riding along screaming going just shut Man up Because he's going on he's going on to point number four point number five point number six

And there's Matt going Tim Tim Tim. No tip Tim Tim Reach over and hit the button man.

Turn him off. It's your program. You know, it's just like man I'm not talking about mistreating the guy

He's the one mistreating slack and his and his audience by going on and on and on but that's

Tim Staples If you don't stop him the first time he utters a falsehood He's just gonna pile it on and pile it on and pile it on and you're never gonna get back to it

And I've heard that over and over again. He said this verse means that and You listen to the programs who did a

Bible Answer Man broadcast. He played around subjunctive I have not heard him play as a subjunctive this time. He may have learned his lesson

Maybe he's learned enough Greek since then that he realized that what he was saying back then was just downright silly I don't know would like to ask him that question

Anyway, as soon as he says something wrong, you've got to stop it right there the

Socratic method of Just asking questions asking with Tim Staples is not gonna work

It's going to result in a massive amount of frustration on the part of everybody listening, which in fact it has so I Like I said,

I don't know what happened at the end of number three about halfway through they went back to necessary And when Matt says well,

I'm looking at dictionary .com. I said click iPod over to something else because I'm I've heard

Honestly, you know, I know what Matt's saying, but you know what I actually have to do with Tim on this particular issue

Because he's explained look I'm talking about normative things here And I'm here are these exceptions and it just just let it lie and move on from there

My goodness to to spend 40 minutes on that and the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ has never once been mentioned so far in my hearing

Leaves me just just going bananas when I'm trying to listen to stuff, so That's my take on it so far.

I really really really would have liked to have seen now. I've been told I have been told that in January there's could be discussion of Mary now finally but it surprises me just a little bit because Again, maybe

Tim's going. All right, this guy lets me go on forever and and just goes Tim Tim Tim Tim Tim And and I just keep getting to go

So I'll be able to throw out all my Merriam -proof texts and we'll never dig into anything deeply enough for me to get in any trouble.

I don't know but That's the specific subject We've been trying to get Tim Staples to debate on formally in front of television cameras for a long long time

And we still have that challenge out there. We'd love to arrange that If mr.

Staples, you know, he's cranking out books and CD sets and all the rest of stuff on Mary you'd think that it would be something to be easily done, but Anyway, I think people need to realize you see, you know, why

Tim Staples is doing this He's not doing it to convince someone like me He's not doing convince most of people in this audience because most people in this audience are

Going to be thinking critically and examining texts and they're not gonna be impressed by As Matt has put it verbal carpet bombing

They're not gonna be impressed by the rattling on rattling on rattling on type of a presentation

But you see there are a lot of really ignorant Protestants. There really are.

Let's let's be honest There are a lot of people the only reason that they're not Catholics is a matter of taste

They don't like the funny -looking hats. Okay, they don't like candles, whatever. It might be they don't there are a lot of Protestants Who aren't

Protestants? There are a lot of Protestants who have absolutely no passionate belief in the solas of the

Reformation or the gospel of Justification by grace through faith. That's just sort of you know, yeah,

I know about that But you know, I mean look at look at the emergent movement. Look at what's going on in these things

That's a pretty good illustration of the fact that you got a lot of Protestants who aren't really

Protestants there they they don't have any real Love for those elements of the faith or knowledge those elements of faith

So what Tim? recognizes is if he can get out there and if he can rattle off enough Bible verses if he can sound like he

He's he's stringing things together in a semi coherent fashion That's all he needs to do.

That's victory for him. That's it. That's He's getting into an audience that otherwise he would never ever be able to get into see

So that's why he keeps rattling on that's why you're never gonna stop him And if you don't stop him as soon as he makes the first thing

I don't challenge him on the factual basis If you don't you can't use the feather approach and you'd use the baseball bat approach because that's his approach

That's direction. He comes at you so that's what you got to do and I think it's the only way that anything meaningful can end up coming out of those particular those particular discussions so We'll see what happens

I would I'll be interested in seeing what happens in January But if if mr. Slick would like to take any any advice from anyone else

Drop the Socratic stuff. It ain't gonna work asking questions ain't gonna work Get some good citations.

There's plenty of them to line up. I mean, there's the Let's put it this way

If if the Protestant doesn't win the Marian debate, you shouldn't be debating. Okay There is so much information

So much history There's so much stuff you can get from Roman Catholic writers to demonstrate the late nature of these things and and the the the huge massive disconnection from apostolic

Christian faith to Modern Roman Catholic dogma and Mary it to the chasm is bigger than in any other area of Roman Catholic theology any other area so Don't do the

Socratic methodology start off with with dogmatic statements from Rome and Force him don't you know?

Don't let him get away with playing around Luke 128 be ready to challenge any of the kakar to men a be ready to just you know nail him to the floor on the kinds of stuff he gets away with all the time on those issues and Then maybe something something worthwhile will come out of that but we will we will see now interestingly enough

This morning. I was pointed to a new blog article a Number of months ago.

Well, I actually I should have left that one up, but I Should have looked at the date as to when this was but maybe

I've got on one of these browsers here. But anyway a while back a

Commenter in a comm box made a statement concerning Myself and cross -examination and debate and he was an attorney and He has now he says in this new post that he is

Posted that he apologizes that he was inappropriate in what he said because he you know

He was basically saying the Holy Spirit wasn't guiding me and I was all this that and the other thing and it was just Let's face it.

I think he needs to recognize it was very much Like what we get all the time

From hardcore Roman Catholics, for example, remember the member Guardian, you know, he was gonna

Call in with all this list of all these Lies and errors and misrepresentations and stuff and that was what?

Four months ago now. He finally did call in and say well, give me three months to do it And And now it's been four months and and well

I'm moving and it's and and you go back to what his original statement was where he's calling me Jim Bob and stuff like that And very disrespectful and very condescending and if it takes this long to put together

You might have wanted to have restrained yourself and your statements in the first place

So that's sort of the type of thing that we're we're dealing with all the time. So I responded to what he had to say and And then he

Sort of disappeared. I think it's the names Paul Hoffer as I recall and then he just sort of you know that that was it and Then this morning.

I'm directed to a huge Could only have been written by an attorney

I mean you you see legal documents, you know And and you only read the first and last paragraphs and everything else is in there for some other reason

That's pretty much what this is Huge huge article that has been posted and I When I formatted it when

I just if you just selected it and I dropped it into Word it was 42 pages long when I formatted it within the context of what you'd have in a

Standard book as far as text type margins stuff like that. It was right around 60 pages in length there

So it's a it's a it's a small book about the size of drawn by the father some books like that and At least

Despite the huge number of I mean some of it is almost next to impossible to understand

I mean the man's definitely attorney and unfortunately when you apply that kind of Stuff to Scripture and to theology that the result can get really really ugly and at least

He decided to provide two examples that Allegedly anyways have something to do with with my

Abusing cross -examination. What it is is he's trying to take on Two assertions that I've made and now how that's relevant to cross -examination.

It's difficult to say one has to do with the he took one quote from the

Jerry matics debate and back then by the way, we didn't even get to have meaningful cross -examination

You didn't get to do the back -and -forth you you had to you had a certain amount of time to state a question

The other person had a certain amount of time to answer and yet a certain amount of time respond He went on the next one. It wasn't much give -and -take But they took the transcript of one of those things and then decided to use all this he's cobbled together all this information about the

Corban rule and the amazing thing is the final result of all this when you actually dig through all this stuff and This stuff always happens the day before I travel, you know,

I leave tomorrow for st. Louis But I still took time to look at it and in essence he comes to the final conclusion that what

Jesus was actually saying in Matthew 15 what he was faulting a Specific group of Pharisees for was for not following the oral

Torah and being solo script tourists Yeah, only an attorney could turn that one upside down like that, but hey, it's he spends 15 pages doing it so it must be right and You know, we'll take a look at it when time allows and point out where the the train falls track, but then he took one that is actually useful and that is he takes the

Discussion between myself and Peter Stravinsky's on purgatory out of 1st Corinthians chapter 3 now this one will allow us to really dig into the text at a point in time the future anyways and demonstrate that That there's a reason why attorneys are attorneys and and they're not theologians are not exegese now, of course, he makes the accusation

I'm engaging in is Jesus and so it'll be Useful to demonstrate that it is

Mr. Hoffer that has missed some basic things. I also mentioned one because we already have some callers

Online and want to get to them but just one of them that I happened to catch

Was he? Spends a great deal of time on Zimmy Oh in first Corinthians 315 and he's got a bunch of citations from lexicons and and then he tries to basically say that I was

You know building my entire case and I was not telling people about this that and the other thing and in reality in a couple times

You you will be confused what he's saying because he confuses my actual exegesis of text with my cross -examination of Stravinsky's where he would give an answer and I'd say okay well if that's what this means and what does this mean and he's he's assuming that since I'm Going with what

Stravinsky's is saying and demonstrating the inconsistency as Stravinsky's his position that I'm agreeing with the things for Vince Because it's saying it's it's amazing how much he completely missed the context of the cross -examination

It was it was shocking and see if I tried to do this on the blog it would take Weeks to just document all the errors and correct them and then go back and say now

You know, what if he meant this or what he meant that it was amazing Oh, and by the way, I even got faulted.

I love this. I First of all, he says well white likes to pretend that he's a he's an expert in Greek Well, no,

I I taught Greek and I've taught Greek exegesis and and things like that But my one calling in life is not teaching

Greek or I wouldn't have been teaching Hebrew and systematic theology and apologetics and things like that, so Have taught on the graduate level

I do know the language and study it but it is not the only thing that I do so So he throws that out.

But then on the other side I Get faulted for not determining beforehand in the cross -examination whether Peter Stravinsky's knows

Greek Now, can you imagine? What would have happened if I had stood up if I'd sat there actually we were sitting for the cross -examination

If I sat there in front of that audience and before I started asking dr. Peter Stravinsky's, dr

Peter Stravinsky's double PhD teacher Ivy League schools longtime editor of the

Catholic answer Author of numerous books called the Catholic answer books

Could you imagine the cat calls booze? Hisses and all of the angry emails we would have gotten if I sat there and said now father

Stravinsky's do you read Greek? He was the one who didn't take the time to read anything

I had written on this subject or said on this subject I had taken the time to read everything that he had written on this particular subject

But to even to then fault me for not asking him if the man knew Greek I sort of figure if you've got two doctorates and you're teaching in theology and apologetics, you better know it

If you don't well, that's that's a bad thing so I get faulted for that and then he goes through the the section that's on YouTube right now and Then he tries to argue as I said about Zimmy, uh -oh and here's where Non Greek readers make their mistakes they think that you can go into these texts and you can just you can you fire up Bible works and you click on this and you know pull out some quotes and and all as well and What he wants to argue is that Zimmy?

Uh -oh as it's found in first Corinthians 3 15 specifically there

It's translated. He will suffer loss in the NASB and the ESV and a majority of translations

And there's a reason for this and he tries to make it sound like I'm just hiding that it could be translated to punish someone because somehow that would allegedly fit in well, it doesn't contextually when you simply walk through the text, but There's there's a real easy way to identify someone who's playing with language, but doesn't actually read the language themselves

Because you see language is not just words sitting next to other words It's not just grammar and it's not just syntax syntax the relationship of words and clauses to one another

There's there's an even larger context that comes in There's a reason why most modern translations render this text the way they do

And it's not one that a person who doesn't read the language Well, actually if you really just sit back and you're not

Quite as prejudiced as this particular writer is you can see it, but it's real simple

It's called parallelism And it's due the fact that first Corinthians 3 15 comes after first Corinthians 3 14 and what

I mean by that is Clearly first through first for this 314 says if any man's work which he has built on it remains

He will receive a reward mist on length to tie a couple times

That was Misscited in the article possibly indicating an inability to read language.

I don't know I have not asked I guess I need to call up this gentleman and ask if he actually reads

Greek, but He will receive awards to notice if any man's work which he has built it remains

He will receive a reward and then the next one if any man's work is burned up He will and then we have

Zemia. Oh So what's that supposed to mean? How is that supposed to be understood?

Not only that but it is in the passive here. He will suffer loss

The parallel to Zemia. Oh is what is found the preceding phrase which is to receive a reward now the reason the translations then render it the way they render it is they're saying and seeing that the best way to parallel to play off of Receive reward is to suffer loss.

You don't receive the reward In fact at one point he even says that I say the rewards eternal life Which I never said what

I was doing was going with what Stravinsky said because that's how he identified it

Rather than going with my exegesis, which I provided the beginning of the debate He just doesn't seem to follow that.

I was saying Okay, if you're saying this then how does your position fit this etc, etc

Which is what you're supposed to do in cross -examination and find out if someone's being consistent It says all sorts of problems along those lines

There was a lot of gratuitous silliness that I ran across about you know if if Jesus had believed in solo scriptura, then this would have been this and this would just just Standard stuff from from sorry not showing any real knowledge of the position being critiqued but that's that's pretty common, so we'll try to find some time to add that to the lengthy list of blog articles and Documentation of what happens when when people try to defend these particular dogmas in those contexts all right, let's try to get some callers in here since we haven't taken some calls for a while and Let's start with Alan in Atlanta.

Hi Alan Hey, dr. White. How are you doing? All right? That's good.

I actually spoke with Matthew yesterday Matthew slick yesterday, and you did yeah.

Yeah, he's a good friend of mine I've known him longer than I've known you actually and I gotta say the radio station that he works out of Is very antiquated and he doesn't have even a mute button where he sits really or he can't

He can't hang up on him. He has to tap to the engineer in the other room

To hang up on him because I told him I said why don't you just hang up on staples? Well, it's not Matt. Well.

You don't have to hang up on him. You just turn him down There's got to be a way to turn down. I mean even even

Chris Arnzen can turn somebody And I've been Chris Arnzen's place and let me tell you something that Dinosaur they have over there running in the treadmill to light.

The place is getting a little old so But I asked him why you couldn't just hang up on him, but I never

I didn't I don't know anything about radio So I didn't know you you could just turn him down I guess I don't know if I'm sure that he could do that But I don't

I don't know if he could do that or not, but um well Gotta realize a couple things first of all we can hear him better than we can hear staples

At least we're supposed to be able to so he can talk over him if he has to but it's his program and when someone

Basically comes on your program and tries to take it over man. It's your home turf. You gotta defend it

I mean, that's just all there is to it you gotta defend it so What show did you listen to because there's

I think he's done two or three with staples I've listened to all the first two and half of the third one and when we went back to what is necessary About baptism in the third one

I turned it off because I'm sorry That that issue was beaten to a bloody pulp in the second program, and when

I came back in the third program I'm like oh, please There are so many vital important issues and soteriology

Roman Catholicism We haven't even touched on on the mass as a perpetuator type Perpetrator sacrifice we haven't touched on the imputed righteousness of Christ I mean the key stuff is just and this is exactly what staples wants to do that.

He's I'm sorry, but he's He's giving in to staples whole reason for doing this and that's what's somewhat frustrating me

Well, I think I mean I know he's probably gonna listen to this show because he heard you're gonna be talking about the staples radio shows there and Yeah, like you said yeah, he's talking about doing the

Marian stuff after after the holidays, which Should be a bit more exciting, but I mean you know this could this could be just this could be just as exciting if You don't let him

Determine the I mean listen to what? Jimmy Akin did on BAM years and years ago, and you'll see that they're working with a template

They sit over there Catholic answers years ago They developed a template as to how you handle these kinds of opportunities and their desire is to communicate

Within that context that Roman Catholics can go toe -to -toe in Bible quoting whether they're doing it right or not isn't the point because those

Aren't the types of people they're trying to reach okay, and so staples is just going to keep buff lowing and he's going to keep doing the the verbal carpet bombing unless there is a a

Willingness to step on him and stop him and say no and to move on into meaningful areas of discussion

Specifically see he's see staples wants to sound as biblical as possible He doesn't want to talk about how the mass is a perpetuatory sacrifice.

He doesn't want to talk about Against the imputed righteousness of Christ is our sole standing and in fact.

I think you probably I would imagine Since you have Expressed at times in the past a certain predilection for a certain kind of theology

You were probably a tad bit surprised to hear Tim Staples arguing like a good

New Covenant theologian in number two Arguing almost verbatim from certain writers in regards to the nature of the

New Covenant and the Ten Commandments Well, I mean I've sort of gotten away from you're right that was in the past I'm sort of I don't know you asked me today if I'm if I'm New Covenant theology or from Covenant theology

I'll give you Covenant theology now as an answer more than I would have you know a couple a couple years ago, but Talking about your hurt.

You heard the same. Oh, yeah, yeah, and you're sitting going wow well That's real interesting, and I'm not saying that there's no place for discussions like that but if the key issues of the the imputed righteousness of Christ and the the finished work of Christ in the cross is the sole grounds of the means by which

I'm saying the union of the elect with with Christ substitutionary atonement if that stuff Hasn't been at the core by program number three then obviously the methodology

It's being used isn't accomplishing what it needs to accomplish at least from our side I agree 100 % the

Socratic the Socratic method didn't work with Staples because you just You give them because I remember it even in the cross -examination with one of the debates you did with him

He took he asked him a question, and he took over five minutes to give an answer Yeah, because he just he just keeps going and he keeps going he's going

I was trying to express that to Matthew. I think he probably has learned his lesson which you gotta understand is when it comes to atheism

You know the maps very good on that very very solid on that no problem But the

Roman Catholicism stuff is not something that he is always Concentrated on in his apologetics ministries been

Mormons Jehovah's Witnesses a lot of atheism stuff You know and things like that, so I think well

I think we need a little bit new ground for him, but we also need to keep in mind Tim Staples does

Specifically aim for this kind of encounter he did with Steve Gregg as well And you know then they make these things available and what they're what they're trying to do is they are trying to present

A view of Catholicism because they recognize most of the Protestants who are not

Catholics have never heard them So they view these as awesome opportunities to show how very biblical

They are and to to present stuff that people have never thought of before Because they don't know much about what they believe okay, so if we're not prepared to present a very strong and Clear contrast then we're just we're giving them our airtime for free, and they're not going to return the favor.

I assure you You know I just I keep missing the invitations to be on Catholic answers live

You know I'm standing here in the dark.

I'm relishing the fact Other people Have gone after me.

That's right They have followed in your footsteps and turned out the lights during well turn down the lights during debates in In Seattle all to the the great chagrin of of all of us who are trying to get something done up there in the process so Little did you know that they were my co -conspirators.

I could not be there. I sent them out I Fully understand well If we're if we're ever at that facility again, we're going to post guards around all the the light switches, so Okay, thanks a lot for calling

Bye -bye, is it really for is it really 439 Wow? I don't know where the time went it it disappeared quickly.

Let's continue off the calls here and talk with yeah, I love this This topic line that you gave me here.

Oh, they're okay this first all I see is M. Oh, okay

Mike and Mike up in a colder part of the world how you doing Mike yes, it's very cold up here.

Oh well I I'm going to st. Louis this weekend, and it's going to be at least a little bit cooler, but It's what is it here right now 71 about 71 degrees here.

Yeah Yeah, we're probably about minus that 70 70 degrees less than that okay?

Well I I don't mean to switch topics on you But I can contribute to your conversation and say or your topic and saying that I think you're a great

Debater I mean that's that's uncontestable. I think and I especially Like the the debate you did with Patrick Madrid on Saints and images

Where you gave the call to repentance or you called them all to repentance and gave a biblical invitation to the gospel

Well, I I try to do that especially in contexts like that where Patrick wanted to try to do a little theatrics on his own

So yeah, I figure if he's opened it up for that. I'll I'll give it give a call of the gospel

So why not that was great? but I did want to call because I I'm actually

I'm going to a school that is is It's a great school. I love school. I'm studying biblical languages.

I don't know if you remember me calling, but yeah, it sounds familiar Yeah, I actually I haven't listened to you all summer.

I didn't listen to you on the summer break Oh, that's right. You you were trying to regain your balance. You had been told yeah

My dad actually gave me a book called the other side of Calvinism by Lawrence Oh Well, and if you're learning and if you're studying biblical languages, that was probably one of the worst books that could have been given to you

Well, what I mean what I mean is sometimes Books like that are are what convert people because they can see

The the double standards and the straw men and and the lack of Substantive consistency in that kind of writing advances book is one of the worst and and you know what the key texts are and so when you look at those key texts and see the

Utter lack of meaningful exegesis. It just makes you go. Well, you know, here's another example of Why why there's one side that's very open in dealing with criticisms and interaction.

The other side just isn't I mean, I was yelling at sometimes I understand

Well, the actual reason I wanted to call it because what while I'm up here I've got a few conversations going with some with some professors up here who are who consider themselves to be four -point

Calvinists and Let me let me ask a true There are so few true four -point

Calvinists. There are I mean Amaraldian will not call himself a four -point

Calvinist in general Because he's coming from a different perspective on this and in the vast majority of my of my encounters those who call themselves four -point

Calvinists are actually about one -point Calvinists and Their objection is done conditional election not really to particular redemption.

So are we talking about? you know just sort of a Easy way around dealing with the issue or are we talking about real

Amaraldians or or what do you what do you think? well, I think he's he holds pretty strongly to the

To election and he's my systematic theology professor. So okay. Well, then he would know what the issues are.

Yeah And as a matter of fact, we've agreed to disagree on a few things. I've tried to help him understand where I'm coming from and Most recently that was by going through John 10

Where and I I was actually wondering why you don't Utilize that passage very odd, or I've never actually heard you and when

I go through there, I see Christ making a pretty clear or he's drawn a pretty clear picture of the

Good Shepherd and his sheep and the relationship he has with them and What he does for them and that just they hear his voice and then he says

That the Pharisees or whoever it was the Jews that were standing there said he said to them you don't believe because you're not my sheep and He well, he told me that I was drawing a logical conclusion

Starting with a major and a minor premise and coming to my conclusion, but I I See what he's saying, but I I it seems to me that it's it's pretty clear.

You know, hey, these are my sheep I laid down my life for my sheep and then you're not my sheep In my mind says, you know,

I didn't lay my life down for you and it might not be the strongest argument But I see it pretty clearly in that passage and then

What do you think about that well, I I actually have used it a number of times

I believe I Cited it in the debate with George Bryson. I I know it's in the Potter's freedom.

I know it's in God's sovereign grace so I I do Refer to a number of times it fits in directly with the

John 6 John 8 John 10 John 17 chapters because it's addressing many of the same things in John 8

Jesus is talking about to the you know, why do you not hear my words? It is because you not belong to God who belongs to God.

Here's my words The reason you died here is because you not belong to God and and evangelicalism turns that upside down and says reason out here is

Because you've not chosen to belong to God that's not what he says and so in John 10 that is continuing that on out of John chapter 9 and the contrast between the blind who can see and the seeing who are blind and that comes into John chapter 10 the identity of who

Jesus is and Specifically When he says you are not believing in John 10 25 direct parallel to John 635 as well and then in answering why they do not believe 10 26 says but you are not believing because you are not of my sheep

Not not you, you know the whole idea In fact, I think on the cruise we we decided that a future book title should be shepherd shopping

Because of the Arminian or non reformed idea where in essence the sheep go shopping for the shepherd

Rather than the shepherd choosing his own sheep, and that's really what you've got going on here in fact someday in the very near future, you'll be able to get a video of The presentation

I did on the on the cruise During our conference on John chapter 10

Where I go through the the two motifs in regards to The dish the shepherd and the sheep that's found here.

That is in one of them. You have the community Sheep fold at a town where the shepherd would come and he'd call his own out

And then as the story progresses then he would take his flock and as he's out in the wilderness Then he becomes the door when he lays down at night

He becomes the door of the sheep pen, which is a much smaller sheep pen and things like that There's all sorts of beautiful analogies that are used in John chapter 10

That's that really do demonstrate what we're talking about. And when he says you do not believe because you were not of my sheep

That's opposite of what people normally say you are not of my sheep because you do not believe Someone has to be able to explain why

They reverse that and if the reverse statement is in fact equal logically to the statements found in Scripture so yes, it's a it's a very strong argument and when it's

When it talks about the fact that he lays down his life of the sheep and he specifically Differentiates his sheep from others then

I don't see how someone can argue it. That's a invalid Deduction from unclear premises the premises are very strong and he when he explains

Their unbelief on the basis of that same sovereign election that he does in John chapter 6 That's a that's a pretty consistent theme all the way through the gospel there

Yeah, so too, you know when I when I speak this professor He and I I believe that we're we're becoming friends or we are friends

And I mean like I said, we agree to disagree on certain things and I mean I've actually had a breakthrough and this happens to be a

Dispensational school and he tells me that he would be fine with me being a covenant theologian or such and whatever. I'd be covenant because That's I'm making my arguments from Scripture.

So I feel I've had a breakthrough in that area, but Just when

I speak to him on these issues he kind of like you can see the wall going up Oh, yeah Well and and for many you got to realize

This would not be the first school where dispensationalists Adopt the us versus them mentality and and see any type of non -dispensational theology, especially

Covenant theology as the greatest enemy that there ever could be out there And I'm thinking of some pretty large schools where that has that has taken place and I've lost track of how many people have

Contacted me just over the past six months especially students who were Experiencing great troubles at their schools because the schools are becoming absolutely adamant that this was one perspective that they would not allow to be expressed within the the student body of their school

But this school in particular that I'm at is I think they're moving in the right direction and there there

I mean, I'm learning so much up here and I love this guy kid I really can't say anything bad about him and my professors in general.

They're great. Well, but that's that's the important part You don't have to agree with everything at your school.

I am a graduate of Seminary and It was it was great for me

To learn how to debate at full Seminary I've told the story many times of Sitting down in I took this class

I don't know how I did it, especially with how much it cost me back then But I ended up taking more classes than I needed to graduate in the one class

I took that I didn't need to take was this ethics class and the professor was out of straight out of fuller himself and it was we were talking about Christian ethics and the guy was was pro -choice and So we ended up locking horns in class and at one point he came down from the front

Pulled a desk around facing mine I pulled mine around facing him the student that the class circled us and we debated right there in the middle of the class

Subject and I still got an A in the class. That was the difference between back then and now

I'm afraid in many situations As I was allowed to have that kind of differentiation because I wasn't just doing the knee -jerk reaction thing.

I was listening I was understanding I was demonstrating that I could hear what they're saying and here's where I disagree and here's here's why and so on so forth and back then anyway, and Tell how old

I'm getting when I talk about back then but back then anyway, you were allowed to do that now I don't know how much

Freedom you'd have in a lot of context to do that. I was actually surprised that uh because I was expecting to get kicked out of school when uh

When I went to my professor and told him that you know I'm a Calvinist and you better try and talk me out of it if you think you can

I I'm not sure that I would have suggested quite that terminology, but I mean

I'm paraphrasing But yeah, I've been very

Surprised and grateful the Lord's been using this place to help really help me grow.

Well good a lot well, that's the important part and get a good solid foundation in those biblical languages and That'll that'll give you a good foundation to work from all right

Mike Thanks, Colin. God bless Yeah, I think John 10 is is one of the key texts.

I I You've heard me talk about it before it may not

I do talk about John 6 more often Because I think it gets to the heart of issues and says things in a certain way and it also precedes

But I John 6 John 8 John 10 John 17 John 9

I like to go to to provide the context of John 10 all those I think are very important along those lines and by the way we are working on a debate with Steve Gregg on Calvinism and right now

It looks like it will probably if things keep going take place third or fourth month of next year in Northern, California, I'm not to give you any more details than that right now because they're not set in stone, but Emails going back and forth with a very large church

That would be sponsoring this so that there they also have videotaping facilities and stuff which means we wouldn't have to dragging our cameras all over the place thankfully and so we're we're trying to put that together a lot of people keep asking about it because we did the

Series of radio free Geneva's last year responding to Steve Gregg's materials and So just want to let everybody know that is

Currently under discussion and trying to trying to work out the details and put things together so obviously once we have that written in stone, we will be letting you know about that and Hopefully that'll be useful to folks as well.

So that'll probably be sometime around The end of March beginning of April around that that area or possibly as late as early

May at all all depends on scheduling and stuff like that, especially at large churches you have to schedule things and I can't tell you how many times

I've gone to a large church and they were wrestling with some sort of Scheduling thing because they forgot about a wedding or you know

Keeping everybody talking to everybody else and know what's going on is a fairly large project

I mean rich and I sometimes pass like ships in the night and where there's only two of us So I when you got lots and lots of folks at a church, it can be it can be rather difficult.

So anyway, so That's what I want to do here because I I've got some stuff that I queued up I've got some stuff from Tim Staples and I've got what

I did on the cross -examination and None of them are actually going to fit in the time frames.

We have left So I I don't think that there's any reason to even go for them. So so I just won't oh, by the way

Ha this will fit in real nicely the Mormonism discussion You'll notice

I've begun a series I'll keep I'll do my best over the weekend to get the rest of that up, but I just can't make any promises right now

I'm sorry, it's it's so hard when you're traveling to know, you know when you get back to your hotel room how much sleep you could be able to get and I sort of figure if these folks are flying me out and They've been advertising this and stuff.

I need to give them my priority at that point. And so I'll continue the series that I can but It is fascinating to see

BYU Doing what it can to redefine the LDS faith and to begin shaving off Those rough edges that were so much apart.

I mean I Didn't tell the story in the blog But I will I have told the story before and I've got just about a minute to tell it

I was standing at the West Gate of the Mormon Temple about the second or third time We went up there to pass out tracks during the general conference and a man was coming across I had learned how to pass out tracks from Wally Tope and he was at high speed

So I got I got moving along so I'm walking sort of parallel with him toward the gate So he's got plenty of time to grab that track and he sort of stops and he wheels around He says, you know, what's wrong with you now,

I've heard that one a few times and so I just started looking at him Which of the many things is gonna be said now, you know, what's wrong with you?

He says you think sex is dirty Now that one I had never heard before and so I was caught somewhat flat -footed

He looks at me says you don't believe that God the Father could have had sex the Virgin Mary to create the body of Jesus And that's why you're wrong turn around went inside now

That was straightforward But in talking with people whose names you might even recognize they did not even so much as blink

To confess that it was taught in the priesthood classes It was taught in the publications of the

LDS Church very clearly the reason that Jesus as the Son of God possessed immortality is because he had an immortal father and So for Millett and Peterson and these other guys you run us as there have been taught during my lifetime

Really I could name names of people that would tell you just the opposite of that and so You're seeing the redefinition of Mormonism.

You're seeing the redrawing of it because they're struggling their numbers are down their growth is flat and They're searching for they're trying to figure out who they are and I don't know if you're with me rich, but there was a guy

Can't remember his name now. We were at the South Gate, but there's a guy came up to me It was toward the end of our time is just before the

King James only folks destroyed everything But I remember a guy coming up to me Actually, it was a little while before that even

Probably in the early 90s mid 90s And he came up to me and he said you see that and he pointed up to the top spire of the of the temple

He said 20 years from now. There'll be a cross up there. You just mark my words and he was

Extremely concerned and upset about the changes in the leadership of the LDS Church And he said you're gonna see changes and what's being emphasized what's being taught and someday

You're gonna see a cross up there and I'll never forget that guy I remember it looked like and I wondered at the time and The years since then has made me go

Why I wonder who that guy was cuz he seemed to see things happening before a lot of other people saw him happening.

So Interesting stuff. Well, thanks for listening to dividing line today. As I said, we will not be here next week

So, please do not send emails complaining, but we will be back. Please pray for us. We're gonna be very very busy.

We'll be back I believe it's December 11th. See you then. God bless Crossroads We need

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