Is There Such a Thing as a Call to Ministry?

The Qualifications for Elders Versus a Subjective Internal Call

So what matters to God in the Bible is that a man meets the qualifications for an elder, not that he has a subjective internal experience.

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Calling in the New Testament and the Meaning of Ephesians 4:1

Tim Mueller. Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the work of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask. We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mueller, and today we'll answer the age-old question, is there such a thing as a call to ministry?

Now Tim, as we kick this episode off, what Bible verse do you have for us related to a call to ministry? I don't have anything related to that. Okay, well what do you have?

So in general, yeah, when you're reading the Bible, one of the things you can realize is when you're in Paul, when Paul uses the language of calling, he's using it related to the concept of effectual call, essentially.

So Ephesians 4 .1, Paul says, I therefore a prisoner of the Lord urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you've been called. So when Paul talks about that calling, that's a calling to a person, right?

So this is the effectual call. This is God taking one of his enemies and basically just saving him, right? So calling him to himself. So that's what you have in the language of the New Testament. Now what most people are talking about when they're talking about a call to ministry is something that is basically a quasi-charismatic kind of command that God does, right?

So it's some kind of, people have often described it in two different ways. So I mean, you can describe like the call to ministry, people talk about that in a very serious way with hushed voices and all that.

But when they're talking about the call to ministry, they're either talking about like an external call, meaning where a church issues a call to someone, but then more naturally what they're talking about is like the internal call, which is basically just God charismatically in some sense, probably short of words, but you know, with these stories, they get embellished a lot.

Communicating to a pastor that he both demands that they pursue typically full-time vocational paid Christian ministry, right? Typically it's full-time vocational ministry in a affluent church that's at least two hour drive from where they live, where their family is, right?

So there's a lot of strings attached to that, but it's like an internal command. That's the way they describe it, an internal command that they need to go to ministry or else they're a failure in their life, right?

So it functions as both a command and a promise that they're supposed to discern through either circumstances or like still small voice or something like that, or sometimes audible, whatever. But then it is kind of bottled after what God does in Exodus 31 .2.

So he says, see, I have called by name, Basilel, the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. And I've filled him with the spirit of God, with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and all craftsmanship to devise artistic designs, to work in gold and silver and bronze, right?

So God basically in an audible way communicates to Moses that he's called Basilel and a holy hob to work on the temple, right? And so then this becomes the pattern of when God has a mission to be accomplished, he'll appoint people to do it.

And he obviously does. I mean, obviously appoints people to, he appoints pastors. He does call pastors into ministry, right? So he does give them desires to be pastors. He does arrange their circumstances and affairs and opens up opportunities.

The whole thing is that why are we taking an Old Testament passage where God is communicating audibly with words and turning that into a subjective prompting of holy spirit or something like that? That's the point.

Does that make sense? So most people are taking an Old Testament example like that of God audibly with words, appointing people to a particular task and then spiritualizing it, you know, turning it into a subjective internal, you know, prompting or something like that.

So.

The Dangers of Mystical Decision-Making in Pastoral Ministry

Pete. Yeah. Yeah. And that seems like it's pretty dangerous overall because I've, you know, yeah, it does become like this infallible, untouchable, unquestionable, you know, aspect of them now, right?

Because well, hey, it's kind of like the people who say, you know, I've told the story before of like the guy that I was talking to who said that he became a Christian because Jesus came and visited him in some way, you know, that sounded like a literal physical visit.

And I just, I didn't even say that wasn't Jesus, even though I thought it wasn't Jesus. I just said, I basically just questioned it. Like, are you sure that's what happened? And then just everything crumbled for that guy.

I mean, right in front of his eye, he just questioned everything at that point. And it does seem a bit like that where you're just really not even allowed to question it in any way, you know, because, well, hey, I had this call and I've been convinced that I'm, you know, God has created me for this purpose and this purpose alone.

And yeah, like you said, it's always the affluent, you know, church with at least 200 members in it, preferably more, you know, and in the safe neighborhood that's close to home, you know, or it's the guy who's pastoring the small church.

And what do you know? He just, God just called him to go be the pastor of a megachurch across the country. You know, what are the odds of that happening? That's amazing. Pete. Right, right. Pete. So, it does seem like it's pretty dangerous from that perspective, but then you mentioned, hey, God is actually appointing people, right?

I mean, there's pastors in churches, that's a regular aspect of the church, and so, if he's appointing people, then how do they know that they're meant to be appointed? Or is that even the right language to use to ask the question when I say meant to be appointed?

Jared. Obviously, there's still a small voice, right?

Pete I think it's actually, you know, the whispering, like the Beth Moore, hey, don't share the gospel with that guy, just go brush his hair. Jared Yeah. Pete Hey, don't be the pastor of that church that really needs it, go find the megachurch.

External Call, Internal Desire, and the Qualifications for Ministry

Jared. No, it's one of those things where, for so many years, you have so many pastors who are functionally charismatic as it relates to decision making, and so, this shows up in a wide variety of ways.

I mean, if a pastor feels called to a church, he'll describe it in that kind of language, appealing to his feelings, right? Like subjective inner promptings. So, pastors, they use that language that way.

The moment that, you know, typically the way it goes, here's the format. So, typically you have like a honeymoon period for the first year, then the second year you have conflict, and then the third year you feel called to go somewhere else, right?

And there's typically more money involved in that one too, right? So, it's a step up on the ladder of ministry or whatever. So, like that's, I mean, I think pastors have for so long, they've appealed to inner subjective mysticism to do that.

Anytime there's like a big decision that they want to make at the church, people are looking at the pastor, and the pastor generally in most churches, particularly Southern Baptist churches, they're going to basically appeal to some kind of prompting or feeling that's leading them to make this decision.

And presumably everyone at that point is supposed to act like, you know, Laban with Rebecca, you know, when Abraham sends his servant to go find a wife for his son, right? So, he tells them the story about how God worked it all out, and they say, well, if the thing is from the Lord, then who are we to say one way or the other, right?

Like that's kind of how pastors, they do. They basically just appeal to, they have some kind of secret access to God's will that's undiscernible to normal people, right? And so, this is going to come through their call to the ministry, and this is going to come through their feeling led to do certain things, and so they'll manipulate churches in that way.

And I mean, I think it's absolutely shame that there's, this is the way that people talk, but I mean, I've gotten myself in trouble criticizing this, like probably more than almost any other subject I've gotten in trouble about, because I mean, there's such a, so much of the American pastor scene is built upon this internal call.

That's what it's built upon. Now, I mean, I don't, I think that call in the Bible is, like there's never, like you can look up the word call in the Bible, whether you're talking about the Hebrew words or the Greek words, you can look them all up in the New Testament, Old Testament.

They're never, it's never used as like an internal subjectively determined prompting, okay? So, like in the Old Testament, when God called people to a particular task, he did so audibly with words. That's what he did, right?

So, you look at the New Testament, we see God calling people, like it's through the church, like laying hands upon a certain individual there. So, the Bible talks about like, if a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a noble task, right?

Now, certainly, I think that desire is a God-given desire, but it may, but just because someone claims to have it doesn't mean that that's from God. Do you see what I mean? Like, meaning like you could have plenty of people who want to be in pastoral ministry because they were a bum, they didn't have like a life plan, you know?

They realized that like ministry jobs are easy in certain ways. I mean, I'm not saying that pastor jobs are easy because they're really hard if you're faithful at them in a lot of ways, but I'm just trying to say that there is a type of person who's going to milk it for all they can get out of it, right?

So, I mean, there is a type of person who wants to be in formal ministry because they never want to submit to anyone in their life. They always want to be in charge. There's a person, like there are people who have bad motives.

There are people who have a higher estimation of their own teaching ability than what they should have, right? So, I mean, there's obviously any number of people who have some kind of desire for the ministry, but it may not be a pure desire.

It may not be from God, but yeah, certainly if God actually wants someone in the ministry, He's going to give them a burden to proclaim His word, right? And then He's going to give them, He's going to use His providence to equip them in certain ways to do that.

They're going to be given opportunities and then there's going to be some kind of elder board that's signing off on this thing and saying, yes, we see that God has gifted you in this way and this desire is something you should pursue, right?

So, I think this is something that the church should be confirming in people. And what we should do is instead of using the word call to describe some kind of subjective inner prompting, we should just leave it to the external call, right?

And then talk about that desire for ministry as a desire, like the Bible does. If someone desires the office of a member of the city, that's a good thing, and then they should be tested. That's the way it works, right?

So, they should be evaluated. They should be tested. You don't just lay hands on someone hastily, right? So, as pastors, it's your job to train up new leaders. So, Paul tells Timothy to identify faithful men, train them up.

That's what churches should be doing. They should be laying hands upon people. They should be preparing them. They should be affirming them. This shouldn't just be like something that a certain person feels internally all by themselves with no one signing off on.

There should be other people saying, yeah, I see that you, and there should be an opportunity. And you know for sure you're called when there's an opportunity. Like, yeah, now, I mean, that could be a call to your judgment, or it could be a call to whatever, but I mean, like when you have a legit call to ministry, the external call, that's when you know that, yeah, you're called to this.

But, yeah, sure. I mean, I think a lot of the pastor dramatization is unfortunate as it relates to these kind of stories because a lot of people, they really aren't just satisfied with the means that God uses to confirm these things, if that makes sense.

So, it just feels like carnal and unspiritual if you don't speak the language of pure subjective mysticism.

Or something like that. So, yeah. Yeah, basically like, hey, I've gotten a special call just like Paul did on the road to Damascus, right? Yeah, but it's not quite that. Who are you to deny that?

Yeah, I mean, even Paul on the road to Damascus is like, he hears a voice from heaven, you know? But what they do is they take these stories and they turn them all into mysticism, you know what I mean?

They're not even like listening to the stories. It's just like they're trying to find some parallel to that, just like you're saying, that is like it but different in the most fundamental way that it can be different in the sense that God didn't actually audibly say anything to you, you know?

So, I mean, it's sad. It's sad because most of my friends are in seminary now at this point. They all felt called to ministry at some point, you know? Most of my friends are in seminary. They felt some internal call.

They had their story that they told everyone anytime anyone asked, you know, when were you called? Brother, when were you called to ministry, right? So, then they would tell their story, you know? And then I heard all their stories, you know?

They would tell their stories to me, you know? But then the issue is they went to seminary. They got in a bunch of, you know, debt going to seminary because they had that story that was the validation for them, right?

And then, you know, they get done with seminary and no church hires them for over a decade. And it's like, well, what now, right? You know, a lot of them, they feel like, well, man, I'm a failure, right?

Because all my seminary professors told me that once you're a pastor, you're a pastor for life, right? And if you feel called, then you know you're a pastor and you're supposed to be a pastor for life.

And you're just waiting around, well, why? Like, I felt called to this thing and God hasn't opened up a door. So, did I miss it? Like, what's going on, right? Like, did I not get the memo or like, what's happening, you know?

And then if they give up on it and they say, well, you know, no opportunities are coming. I'm just going to go to the secular workforce. Then, you know, all the rest of their friends look at them like as if they betrayed Christ or something like that, right?

Like they're apostate, you know, because it's like, well, what do you want me to do? I didn't get a job. God hasn't given me a job yet. What am I supposed to do? Just sit here and starve? You know, like indefinitely, because I have no life plan because that was my life plan, you know?

So, I mean, it really is a mess the way that people think about it. But I will say that as I've talked about this and people have asked me, you know, when did you first feel called to the ministry? Well, I don't feel called to the ministry, which doesn't help, you know, because they're instantaneously misunderstand.

It's like, no, I have a desire for the ministry and I'm submitting that desire to God. And whenever he wants to open up a door, he can't, you know? And if he doesn't, then I'll be content with that too, you know?

It's like, but do you feel a burning passion? Like you're a failure in life if you don't do anything but being a preacher. It's like, yeah, I want to be a preacher, right? I refuse to be discontent until he gives me that, and unhappy and ungrateful and confused, you know?

But the moment he opens the door, I'll walk through it for sure, you know? And I'll walk through it happily. But, you know, that isn't often good enough for people. They want you to tell the stories that they're used to hearing, you know, related to those things.

But, I mean, yeah, when you see people who buy into this stuff and there's never a job for them, it really does caution you to think clearly about the nature of what you're saying at that point, for sure.

What to Do When Ministry Opportunities Do Not Open

Right. Yeah, and that was going to be one of my questions is, you know, what do you do? I get, you know, what do you do when you can't, I mean, if you can't find anything, what do you do? Like, are you allowed to, people talk about, like, hey, this, you know, I'm called, I'm called.

Well, does that mean it's sin to not pursue it? Is it sin if you fail? You know, is it sin if you just don't desire it anymore? Like, maybe you pursue it for a little while, you learn a little bit more about what it takes, and then you say, hey, maybe I'm, you know, I'm counting the cost.

Maybe I don't really want to do that. Maybe I don't really want to do this as much as I thought I did initially. Like, are those inherent? I mean, those can be sinful, right, depending on the circumstance, but are they inherently sinful?

Yeah. So, this is the problem with using the language of call because the language of call is a command. So, when God calls Baselow and Aholiob to their task related to the construction of the temple, they didn't have the option to say no, right?

They had to do what God told them to do. Like, that's what it means to be called, right? You're appointed by God to this particular task. So, what you have is you have a lot of charismatic Southern Baptists, essentially.

You have a lot of charismatic Southern Baptists and those adjacent to that world who basically use this language of command to describe a desire for the ministry. So, you're conflating the desire with a command.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. It's like, well, no. I mean, the Bible says if you desire it, you desire a noble task, right? That's a good desire, and then you need to test that desire, right? So, I mean, it talks about that related to deacons.

Like, they first need to be tested. Like, you don't lay your hands on an elder hastily, right? You figure out, are they qualified? Are they equipped? You have qualifications. So, what matters to God in the Bible is that a man meets the qualifications for an elder, not that he has a subjective internal experience.

But then, because you're living in subjective, you know, SBC, quasi-charismatic world, you know, right now at this point, most of your American pastors are just charismatic when it comes to decision-making.

Then, now you have to have this internal command, right? And I just say, it's just a completely unhelpful way to talk about this, and you should talk about it the way the Bible talks about it. Just talk about it that way, because if we are going to use the language of call, we are talking about a command.

That's what we're doing, you know? Yeah. So, then, yeah, you'll, yeah. So, you have, like, these 20-something-year-old guys who don't meet the qualifications for elders found in the Bible. They don't meet those, but they had that experience, and they feel this command, right?

This burden of responsibility. And a lot of times, I mean, it's just as simple as, like, they listen to a David Platt sermon or something, and they decide to be radical because they have all this guilt, because they have all this unrepentant sin, you know?

And now they want to go and give their life to Jesus and do something, like, crazy, like, just completely all-in, right, kind of thing. Because if they don't do that, they feel like they're wasting their life, because that's what John Piper said not to do, too, right?

So, forget the seashells. They've listened to Piper and Platt and all that. And, I mean, this is a pre-existing problem before all that, but, I mean, a lot of people, they do have those kind of experiences where they go to some revival.

They go to some kind of, you know, youth rally that has all this, like, pressure and an altar call, and do you want to give your life to full-time Christian service, you know, and all that? Or do you just want to be one of those normal Christians who just work at a dumb, normal job, you know, and waste your life collecting seashells, you know, kind of thing?

And so, yeah, they do that, and then they're confused. I don't know what to do, you know? I didn't meet the actual qualifications, the thing that we were told to look for with these, but I feel I have a desire there, right, that can be motivated in any number of ways that are good and bad and everything else.

And then they go, they jump through all the hoops, you know, with the money-making machine that is seminary, right? That they don't care. They'll take your money no matter what, you know? So, I was actually a little bit concerned when I was wondering, will they actually let me come here, you know, kind of thing?

But they don't take anyone's money, man, you know? So, it doesn't.

Matter. They'll even take the women's money. They'll say, give me the women's money. It doesn't.

Matter, right? So, you know, at that point, then there's no real checks on that end of things, so then you have a bunch of people who they felt they had a desire and then they were told that means that they're supposed to be a pastor for the rest of their life and God's promised to make them a pastor and give them like a very specific kind of job.

And then, you know, it didn't pan out and I was like, oh, big shock, you know? Wonder why. Maybe it has something to do with the way we think about this. I don't know, you know, but then no one really wants to consider.

That. What about someone who essentially like, hey, look, they start pursuing ministry, they desire it, you know, they think they meet all the biblical commandments, the church confirms that, you know, they demonstrate faithfulness in their own walk and their love towards others and their willingness to be bold and share the gospel all along the way.

And there's even an opportunity, maybe, to take an actual ministry job, paid or unpaid, it doesn't really matter, but it is a pastoral position that is opened up. Is that person still allowed to say, hey, you know what, I'm not going to take it?

Church Confirmation, Qualifications, and the Limits of a Pastoral Job Offer

Jared. Well, yeah, I'm not suggesting that just because anyone has offered a job that means that God is standing behind that and that's an infallible indication that God wants this person to be a pastor, right?

So what I'm trying to say is there are qualifications, there are qualifications in the Bible for ministry. So if a person has, like, they do need to have a desire for ministry, right, they don't need to enter into it reluctantly or whatever, but I mean, they need to have some kind of desire for this, right?

So there needs to be some, and now, I mean, people can not have that desire because they're cowards and they need to repent of that, you know, and there's others who have that desire and they, but yeah, that, you know, all other things being equal, they should have that desire, but they should hold themselves up to those qualifications.

And then if a church is also holding them up to that qualification, and like the church is filled with qualified people who know how to tell the difference, right, and they offer that person that job, I mean, yeah, you should take that as a solemn responsibility and confirmation, right, that as much confirmation as you can get.

Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, but certainly a lot of, like, churches aren't, you know, looking at those qualifications very seriously. They're making hasty decisions with all of that too, right? So they're making hasty kind of decisions, like they're not even, you know, you look at a lot of church job, like if you've ever spent any significant amount of time looking at church job postings online or whatever, you know, a lot of the stuff they put on there has nothing to do with the qualifications at all.

We want a dynamic, you know, guy with a dynamic personality, you know, and a comprehensive vision that's going to, you know, grow our church exponentially while keeping everything the same, you know, doing everything exactly the way we want to do it.

We have been doing it for a long time, but no, so yeah, I think that the church is meant to be like God's means of confirming these things, and you should trust in that, right, to the extent to which they're doing their job, you know, it's not like an infallible indication, but it's the best thing you got.

Does that make sense? So it shouldn't just be just like some guy, it shouldn't just be some young person at like a youth rally or something who is subjectively determining these things because his girlfriend just broke up with him or something like that, and he feels bad, you know, and doesn't know what to do anymore, you know, and so just wants to really commit to God, you know, get over things, but yeah, the church is meant to be safeguarded in these ways for sure.

Okay. All right. Well, fair enough. Thank you, Tim, for answering all my questions there and talking about this, and yeah, it certainly is a pretty concerning thing if you're basically telling everyone, hey, you're going to be outside of God's will, you know, if you don't, oh, you desire the ministry, all right, if you ever change your mind for any reason whatsoever now, you're like, you're done.

Traitor. Yeah, traitor, failure. You're locked in for life now. Once a pastor, always a pastor, man. Yeah, exactly. That's, you know, that's probably a little bit of an exaggeration. It's not, it's not.

Maybe not that far off, maybe not that far off, but yeah, so it certainly is an important topic to discuss, so thank you for answering all our questions there. We appreciate all you guys who listen to us week in and week out.

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Closing Encouragement and Podcast Sign-Off

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