Is There Such a Thing as a Call to Ministry?

The Bible Bashed Podcast

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

So what matters to God in the Bible is that a man meets the qualifications for an elder, not that he has a subjective internal experience.

00:12

Warning, the following message may be offensive to some audiences. These audiences may include, but are not limited to, professing Christians who never read their Bible, sissies, sodomites, men with man buns, those who approve of men with man buns, man bun enablers, white knights for men with man buns, homemakers who have finished

00:22

Netflix but don't know how to meal plan, and people who refer to their pets as fur babies. Viewer discretion is advised. People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio.

00:30

That salvation is better than to reject

00:43

Christ, therefore forfeit any hope of salvation, any hope of heaven.

00:50

The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of almighty

00:55

God is hanging over our heads. They will hear his words, they will not act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment, when the fires of wrath come, they will be consumed and they will perish.

01:10

God wrapped himself in flesh, condescended and became a man, died on the cross for sin, was resurrected on the third day, has ascended to the right hand of the

01:23

Father, where he sits now to make intercession for us. Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words, they will act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day, their house will stand.

01:40

Tim Mueller Welcome to Bible Bashed, where we aim to equip the saints for the work of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

01:46

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mueller, and today we'll answer the age -old question, is there such a thing as a call to ministry?

01:56

Now, Tim, as we kick this episode off, what Bible verse do you have for us related to a call to ministry?

02:02

I don't have anything related to that. Pastor Jared Okay, well, what do you have?

02:09

I mean, so, in general, yeah, when you're reading the Bible, one of the things you can realize is when you're in Paul, when

02:17

Paul uses the language of calling, he's using it related to the concept of effectual call, essentially.

02:24

So, Ephesians 4 .1, Paul says, I therefore, a prisoner of the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you've been called.

02:31

So, when Paul talks about that calling, that's a calling to a person, right? So, this is the effectual call.

02:38

This is God taking one of his enemies and, you know, basically just saving him, right?

02:45

So, calling him to himself. So, that's what you have in the language of the New Testament.

02:51

Now, what most people are talking about when they're talking about a call to ministry is something that is basically a quasi -charismatic kind of command that God does, right?

03:02

So, it's some kind of, you know, people have often described it in two different ways.

03:10

So, I mean, you can describe like the call to ministry, you know, people talk about that in a very serious way with hushed voices and all that, but like when they're talking about the call to ministry, they're either talking about like an external call, meaning where a church issues a call to someone, but then more naturally what they're talking about is like the internal call, which is basically just God charismatically, in some sense, probably short of words, but, you know, with these stories, they get embellished a lot.

03:42

Communicating to a pastor that he both demands that they pursue typically full -time vocational paid

03:50

Christian ministry, right? It's like, you know, typically it's full -time vocational ministry in a affluent church that's at least a two -hour drive from where they live, where their family is, right?

04:06

So, there's a lot of strings attached to that, but it's like an internal command. That's the way they describe it, an internal command that they need to go to ministry or else they're a failure in their life, right?

04:18

So, it functions as both a command and a promise that they're supposed to discern through either circumstances or like still small voice or something like that, or sometimes audible, whatever, but then it is kind of bottled after what

04:32

God does in Exodus 31, 2. So, he says, see,

04:38

I have called by name, Basilel, the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and I've filled him with the spirit of God, with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and all craftsmanship, to devise artistic designs, to work in gold and silver and bronze, right?

04:54

So, like he basically, God basically in an audible way communicates to Moses that he's called

05:01

Basilel and a holy hob to work on the temple, right? And so, then this becomes the pattern of like, you know, when

05:07

God wants, has a mission to be accomplished, he'll appoint people to do it. And he obviously does.

05:13

I mean, God obviously appoints people to, he appoints pastors. He does call pastors into ministry, right?

05:21

So, he does give them desires to be pastors. He does arrange their circumstances and affairs and opens up opportunities.

05:28

The whole thing is that why are we taking an Old Testament passage where God is communicating audibly with words and turning that into a subjective prompting of the

05:36

Holy Spirit or something like that? That's the point. Does that make sense? So, yeah, yeah.

05:43

Old Testament example like that of God audibly with words appointing people to a particular task and then spiritualizing it, you know, turning it into a subjective internal, you know, prompting or something like that.

05:59

So, yeah. Pete Yeah, and that seems like it's pretty dangerous overall because, you know, yeah, it does become like this infallible, untouchable, unquestionable you know, aspect of them now, right?

06:17

Because, well, hey, it's kind of like the people who say, you know,

06:23

I've told the story before of like the guy that I was talking to who said that he became a Christian because Jesus came and visited him in some way, you know, that sounded like a literal physical visit and I just,

06:39

I just, I didn't even, I didn't even say that wasn't Jesus even though I thought it wasn't

06:45

Jesus. I just said, I basically just questioned it.

06:51

Like, are you sure that's what happened? And then just everything crumbled for that guy.

06:58

I mean, right in front of his eye, he just questioned everything at that point and it does seem a little bit like that where you're just really not even allowed to question it in any way, you know, because it, because, well, hey,

07:13

I had this call and I've been convinced that I'm, you know, God has created me for this purpose and this purpose alone.

07:21

And yeah, like you said, it's always the affluent, you know, church with at least 200 members in it, preferably more, you know, and in the safe neighborhood that's close to home, you know, or it's the guy who's pastoring the small church and what do you know?

07:40

He just, God just called him to go be the pastor of a megachurch across the country.

07:47

You know, what are the odds of that happening? That's amazing. Pete Right, right.

07:58

But then you mentioned, hey, God is actually appointing people, right?

08:05

I mean, there's pastors in churches, that's a regular aspect of the church.

08:10

And so, if he's appointing people, then how do they know that they're meant to be appointed?

08:20

Or is that even the right language to use to ask the question when I say meant to be appointed?

08:27

Jared Obviously, the small voice, right? Pete I think it's actually, you know, the whispering, like the

08:37

Beth Moore, hey, don't share the gospel with that guy, just go brush his hair. Jared Yeah. Pete Hey, don't be the pastor of that church that really needs it.

08:46

Go find the megachurch. Jared No, you know, it's one of those things where for so many years, you have so many pastors who are functionally charismatic as it relates to decision making.

09:02

And so this shows up in a wide variety of ways. I mean, if a pastor feels called to a church, he'll describe it in that kind of language appealing to his feelings, right, like subjective inner promptings.

09:17

So pastors, they use that language that way. The moment that, you know, typically the way it goes, here's the format.

09:22

So you have typically you have like a honeymoon period for the first year. Then the second year, you have conflict.

09:28

And then the third year, you feel called to go somewhere else, right? And there's typically more money involved in that one too, right?

09:35

So it's a step up on the ladder of, you know, ministry or whatever. So like that's, I mean,

09:40

I think pastors have for so long, they've appealed to inner subjective mysticism to do that.

09:47

Anytime there's like a big decision that they want to make at the church, you know, people are looking at the pastor and the pastor generally in most church, most, you know, particularly

09:55

Southern Baptist churches, like they're going to basically appeal to like some kind of prompting or feeling, you know, that's leading them to make this decision.

10:04

And, you know, presumably everyone at that point is supposed to act like, you know, Laban with Rebecca, you know, when

10:10

Abraham sends his servant to go find a wife for his son, right?

10:18

So he tells them the story about how God worked it all out. And they say, well, if the thing is from the Lord, then who are we to say one way or the other, right?

10:25

Like that's kind of how pastors, they do. They basically just appeal to, they have some kind of secret access to God's will that's undiscernible to normal people, right?

10:35

And so this is going to come through their call to the ministry and this is going to come through their, you know, feeling led to do certain things.

10:42

And so they'll manipulate churches in that way. I mean, I think it's absolutely a shame that there's, this is the way that people talk, but I mean, like there's like,

10:50

I've gotten myself in trouble criticizing this, like probably more than almost any other subject

10:58

I've gotten in trouble about. Because I mean, there's such a, so much of the American pastor scene, you know, is built upon this internal call, you know, that's what it's built upon.

11:09

Now, I mean, I don't, I think that call in the Bible is like, there's never, like you can look up the word call in the

11:17

Bible, you know, whether you're talking about the Hebrew words or the Greek words, you can look them all up in the

11:23

New Testament, Old Testament. They're never, it's never used as like an internal subjectively determined prompting.

11:31

Okay. So like in the Old Testament, when God called people to a particular task, he did so audibly with words.

11:37

That's what he did, right? So you look at the New Testament, we see God calling people, like it's through the church, like laying hands upon a certain individual there, you know, so the

11:47

Bible talks about like, if a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a noble task, right? Now, certainly

11:53

I think that desire is a God -given desire, but it may, but just because someone claims to have it, doesn't mean that that's from God.

12:04

Do you see what I mean? Mm -hmm. Like meaning, meaning like you could have plenty of people who want to be in pastoral ministry because they were a bum, they didn't have like a life plan, you know, they realized that like ministry jobs are easy in certain ways.

12:24

I mean, I'm not saying that pastor jobs are easy because they're really hard if you're faithful at them in a lot of ways, but I'm just, I'm just trying to say that there is a type of person who's going to milk it for all they can get out of it.

12:33

Right. So there is a type of person who wants to be in formal ministry because they never want to submit to anyone in their life.

12:39

They always want to be in charge. There's a person like there's, there are people who have bad motives. There are people who have a higher estimation of their own teaching ability than what they should have.

12:49

Right. Like, so, I mean, there's, there's, I mean, there's obviously any number of people who have some kind of desire for the ministry, but it may not be a pure desire.

12:58

It may not be from God, but yeah, certainly if God actually wants someone in the ministry, he's going to give them a burden to proclaim his word.

13:08

And then he's going to, he's going to give them, he's going to going to use his providence to equip them in certain ways to do that.

13:15

They're going to be given opportunities. And then there's going to be some kind of elder board that's signing off on this thing and saying, yes, we, we see that God has gifted you in this way.

13:24

And this desire is something you should pursue. Right. So, I mean,

13:29

I think in, this is something that the church should be confirming in people.

13:38

And what we should do is instead of like using the word call to describe some kind of subjective inner prompting, we should just, just leave it to the external call.

13:49

And then talk about like that desire for ministry as a desire, like the Bible does. Like if someone desires the office of an overseer, that's a good thing.

13:55

And then they should be tested. That's the way it works. Right. So there should be evaluated. It should be tested.

14:01

You don't just lay hands on someone hastily. So as pastors, it's your job to train up new leaders.

14:08

Like, so Paul tells Timothy to identify faithful men, train them up. That's what churches should be doing. They should be laying hands upon people.

14:15

They should be preparing them. They should be affirming them. This shouldn't just be like something that a certain person feels internally all by themselves with no one signing off on, you know, like there should be other people saying, yeah,

14:26

I see that you, um, and there should be an opportunity, you know, and, and, you know, for sure you're called when there's an opportunity, like, yeah, now,

14:37

I mean, you know, that could be a call to your judgment or it could be a call to whatever, but I mean, like when you have a, like when you have a legit call to ministry, the external call, that's when you know that, yeah, you're, you're called to this, but, um, yeah, sure.

14:52

I mean, I think a lot of the, you know, pastor drama today's traumatization is, uh, unfortunate as it relates to these kinds of stories, because you're not a lot of people, they really aren't just satisfied with the ordinary means that God uses to confirm these things, if that makes sense.

15:12

So it just feels like carnal and unspiritual, like if you don't speak the language of pure subjective mysticism or something like that.

15:21

Yeah. Basically like, Hey, I've gotten a special call just like Paul did on the road, on the road to Damascus.

15:29

Right. And yeah, but it's not quite that deny that. Yeah. I mean, even Paul on the road to Damascus is like, he, he hears a voice from heaven.

15:38

Right. But what they, what they do is they take these stories and they, they turn them all into mysticism.

15:43

You know what I mean? They're not even like listening to the stories. It's just like, they're trying to find some parallel to that. Just like you're saying that is like it, but different in the most fundamental way that it can be different in the sense that God didn't actually audibly say anything to you, you know?

16:02

So, I mean, it's sad. It's sad. Cause I mean, like most of my friends are seminary now at this point, they, they all felt called to ministry at some point, you know, like most of my friends are, they, they felt some internal call.

16:13

They had their story that they told everyone anytime anyone asked, you know, when were you called brother?

16:18

When were you called ministry? Right. Like, and so then they would tell their story, you know, and then, you know,

16:25

I heard all their stories, you know, they would tell their stories to me, you know, but then like the issue is they went to seminary, they got in a bunch of, you know, debt going to seminary because they had that story.

16:34

That was the validation for them. Right. And then, you know, they get done with seminary and no church hires them for over a decade.

16:43

And it's like, well, what now? Right. You know, a lot of them, they, they feel like, well, man,

16:48

I'm a failure. Right. Because all my seminary professors told me that when, you know, once you're a pastor, you're a pastor for life.

16:56

Right. And if you feel called, then, you know, you're a pastor and you're supposed to be a pastor for life.

17:01

And you're just waiting around. Why? Like, I felt called to this thing and God hasn't opened up a door. So did

17:06

I miss it? Like what's going on? Right. Like, did I not get the memo or like what's happening, you know?

17:13

And then if they give up on it and they say, well, you know, no opportunities are coming.

17:20

I'm just going to go to the secular workforce. Then, you know, all the rest of their friends look at them like as if they like betrayed

17:27

Christ or something like that. Right. Like they're apostate, you know, because it's like, well, what do you want me to do?

17:32

I didn't get a job. God hasn't given me a job yet. What am I supposed to do? Just sit here and starve, you know, like indefinitely.

17:41

Because I have no life plan because that was my life plan, you know? So, I mean, it really is a mess the way that people think about it.

17:48

But I will say that as I've talked about this and people have asked me, you know, when did you first feel called to the ministry?

17:54

Well, I don't feel called to the ministry. Which doesn't help, you know, because they misunderstand.

18:02

It's like, no, I have a desire for the ministry and I'm submitting that desire to God. And whenever he wants to open up a door, he can't, you know?

18:08

And if he doesn't, then I'll be content with that too, you know? It's like, but do you feel a burning passion? Like you're a failure in life if you don't do anything but being a preacher.

18:16

It's like, yeah, I want to be a preacher, right?

18:22

I refuse to be discontent until he gives me that and unhappy and ungrateful and confused.

18:29

But the moment he opens the door, I'll walk through it for sure, you know? And I'll walk through it happily.

18:35

But, you know, that isn't often good enough for people. They want you to tell the stories that they're used to hearing, you know, related to those things.

18:44

But, I mean, yeah, when you see people who buy into this stuff and there's never a job for them, it really does caution you to think clearly about the nature of what you're saying at that point, for sure.

19:00

Right. Yeah. And that was going to be one of my questions is, you know, what do you do?

19:06

I get, you know, what do you do when you can't, I mean, if you can't find anything, what do you do? Like, are you allowed to, people talk about like, hey, this, you know,

19:17

I'm called, I'm called. Well, does that mean it's sin to not pursue it?

19:26

Is it sin if you fail? You know, is it sin if you, if you're, if you just don't desire it anymore, like maybe you pursue it for a little while, you learn a little bit more about what it takes.

19:40

And then you say, hey, maybe I'm, you know, I'm counting the cost. Maybe I don't really want to do that.

19:47

Maybe I don't really want to do this as much as I thought I did initially. Like, are those are those inherent?

19:54

I mean, they, those can be sinful, right? Depending on the circumstance, but are they in, are they inherently sinful?

20:03

So this is, this is the problem with using the language of call because the language of call is a command.

20:11

So when God calls Baselow and Aholiob to their task related to the construction of the temple, they didn't have the option to say no, right?

20:22

Right. They had to do what God told them to do. Like, that's what it means to be called, right?

20:28

You're appointed by God to this particular task. So what you have is you have a lot of like charismatic

20:36

Southern Baptists, essentially, you have a lot of charismatic Southern Baptists and, you know, in those adjacent to that world who basically use this language of command to describe a desire for the ministry.

20:51

So you're conflating the desire with a command, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. It's like, well, no,

20:58

I mean, the Bible says, if you desire it, you desire a noble task, right?

21:03

That's a good desire. And then you need to test that desire, right? So, I mean, like, it talks about that with related to deacons, you know, like if you, like they first need to be tested, like you don't lay your hands on an elder hastily, right?

21:17

You figure out, are they qualified? Are they equipped? You have qualifications. So what matters to God in the

21:24

Bible is that a man meets the qualifications for an elder, not that he has a subjective internal experience.

21:31

But then because you're living in subjective, you know, SBC, quasi -charismatic world, you know, right now at this point, most of your

21:38

American pastors are just charismatic as it comes to decision making. Then now you have to have this internal command, right?

21:48

And I just say, it's just a completely unhelpful way to talk about this. And you should talk about it the way the Bible talks about it.

21:54

Just talk about it that way. Because if we are going to use the language of call, we are talking about a command. That's what we're doing.

22:00

Yeah. So then, yeah, you'll, yeah. So you have like these 20 -something -year -old guys who don't meet the qualifications for elders found in the

22:11

Bible. They don't meet those, but they had that experience and they feel this command, right?

22:18

This burden of responsibility. And a lot of times, I mean, it's just as simple as like they listened to a David Platt sermon or something and they decided to be radical because they have all this guilt because they have all this unrepentant sin, you know.

22:29

And now they want to go and give their life to Jesus and do something like crazy, like just completely all in, right, kind of thing.

22:36

Because if they don't do that, they feel like they're wasting their life because that's what John Piper said not to do too, right?

22:43

So forget the seashells. They've listened to Piper and Platt and all that. And I mean, this is a pre -existing problem before all that.

22:49

But I mean, a lot of people, they do have those kind of experiences where they go to some revival. They go to some kind of, you know, youth rally that has all this like pressure and an altar call.

23:00

And do you want to give your life to full -time Christian service, you know, and all that? Or do you just want to be one of those normal Christians who just work at a dumb, normal job, you know, and waste your life collecting seashells, you know, kind of thing.

23:13

And so then, yeah, they do that and then they're confused. I don't know what to do.

23:20

You know, I didn't meet the actual qualifications, the thing that we were told to look for with these, but I feel

23:25

I have a desire there, right, that can be motivated in any number of ways that are good and bad and everything else.

23:33

And then they go, they jump through all the hoops. They, you know, with the money -making machine that is seminary, right, that they don't care.

23:42

They'll take your money no matter what. I was actually a little bit concerned when I was wondering, will they actually let me come here, you know, kind of thing.

23:50

But they don't take anyone's money, man. It doesn't matter. They'll even take the women's money.

23:56

They'll say, give me the women's money. It doesn't matter. So, you know, at that point, then there's no real checks on that end of things, you know.

24:04

So then you have a bunch of people who they felt they had a desire and then they were told that means that they're supposed to be a pastor for the rest of their life.

24:13

And God's promised to make them a pastor and give them like a very specific kind of job. And then, you know, it didn't pan out.

24:19

And I was like, oh, big shock, you know, wonder why. Maybe it has something to do with the way we think about this.

24:25

I don't know, you know, but then no one really wants to consider that. What about what about someone who what about someone who essentially like, hey, look, they, you know, they they start pursuing ministry.

24:40

They desire it. You know, they think they meet all the biblical commandments.

24:46

The church confirms that, you know, they they they demonstrate faithfulness in their in their own walk and their love towards others and their willingness to be bold and share the gospel all along the way.

25:03

And there's even an opportunity maybe to to take an actual ministry job, paid or unpaid.

25:12

I guess it doesn't really matter. But but it is, you know, a pastoral position that is opened up.

25:21

Um, you know. Are there is that person still allowed to say, hey, you know what?

25:28

I'm not going to take it. Well, yeah,

25:34

I'm not trying to I'm not suggesting that just because anyone has offered a God offered a job, that means that God is standing behind that.

25:43

And that's an infallible, infallible indication that God has God wants this person to be a pastor.

25:50

Right. So what I'm trying to say is like there are there are qualifications, their qualifications in the

25:58

Bible for ministry. So if if a person has like they do need to have a desire for ministry, right, they don't need to enter into it reluctantly or whatever.

26:08

But I mean, they need to have some kind of desire for this. Right. So there needs to be something. Now, I mean, people can, you know, not have that desire because they're cowards and they need to repent of that.

26:18

You know, there's others who have that desire and they but yeah, that, you know, all other things being equal, they should have that desire, but they should hold themselves up to those qualifications.

26:28

And then if a church is also holding them up to that qualification and like the church is filled with qualified people who know how to tell the difference.

26:36

Right. And they offer that person that job. I mean, yeah, you should take that as a solemn responsibility and confirmation.

26:42

Right. That that. As much confirmation as you can get. Does that make sense?

26:48

Yeah. Yeah. But certainly a lot of like churches aren't, you know, looking at those qualifications very seriously.

26:57

They're making hasty decisions with all of that too. Right. So they're making hasty kind of decisions like they're not even, you know, you look at a lot of the church job, like if you've ever spent any significant amount of time looking at church job postings online or whatever, you know, a lot of the stuff they put on there has nothing to do with the qualifications at all.

27:23

We want a dynamic, you know, guy with a dynamic personality, you know, and comprehensive vision that's going to, you know, grow our church exponentially while keeping everything the same, you know, doing everything exactly the way we want to do it.

27:41

We have been doing it for a long time. So yeah, I think that the church is meant to be like God's means of confirming these things and you should trust in that, right?

27:52

To the extent to which they're doing their job, you know, it's not like an infallible indication, but it's the best thing you got.

27:59

Does that make sense? So it shouldn't just be just like some guy. It shouldn't be just some young person at like a youth rally or something who is subjectively determining these things by, because his girlfriend just broke up with him or something like that, and he feels bad, you know, and doesn't know what to do anymore, you know, and so just wants to really commit to God, you know, to get over things.

28:24

But yeah, the church is meant to be safeguarded in these ways for sure. Okay. All right.

28:31

Well, fair enough. Thank you, Tim, for answering all my questions there and talking about this and yeah, it certainly is a pretty concerning thing if you're basically telling everyone, hey, you're going to be outside of God's will, you know, if you don't, oh, you desire the ministry.

28:50

All right. If you ever change your mind for any reason whatsoever now, you're like, you're done.

28:58

Traitor. Yeah. Traitor. Failure. You're locked in for life now.

29:04

Well, as a pastor, always a pastor, man. Yeah, exactly. That's, you know, that's probably a little bit of an exaggeration.

29:13

It's not. It's not. Maybe not that far off. Maybe not that far off. But yeah, so it certainly is an important topic to discuss, so thank you for answering all our questions there.

29:25

We appreciate all you guys who listen to us week in and week out. We appreciate you guys supporting us that way, and our hope is that this is something that does actually equip all of you for the work of ministry, whether that's pastoral or it's something else.

29:41

It doesn't, you know, like we said, it doesn't have to be pastoral, but we certainly appreciate all your support in helping us to put on the podcast.

29:49

If you want to know how you might help us more, you can do that a couple different ways.

29:55

First of all, you can do that financially. There's a link to our Patreon down in the description where you can support us there.

30:03

You can also support us by just leaving a like and a comment on the video if you're watching on YouTube or Rumble and subscribing to the channel there.

30:13

Or if you're listening to this in podcast form, you can leave us a five -star review and subscribe to the podcast, and all those things really go a long way to help us out.

30:22

If you are looking for more of our content that we put out, there's links to our social media profiles down in the description as well.

30:30

And until the next episode, we'll see. Consider supporting us through Patreon.

31:02

Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.