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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James white And welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning good to be with you

I was given an URL that I looked at last night that once again for our

Brothers and sisters over in the United Kingdom cannot be good news but obviously what starts there comes our direction and there are lots and lots and lots of radicals in our own nation of the

United States that would Like to see this would applaud this greatly.

This is from the Daily Mail from 24th of October Title foster child to be taken away because Christian couple refuses to teach him about homosexuality

They are devoted foster parents and an unblemished record of caring for almost 30 vulnerable children

But Vincent and Pauline Matherick will this week have their latest foster son taken away because they have refused to sign new sexual equality regulations

To do so they claim would force them to promote homosexuality and go against their Christian faith the 11 year old boy

Who has been their care for two years? We placed in a council hostel this week and the Mathericks will no longer be given children to look after the devastated couple who have three grown -up children of their own became foster parents in 2001 and have since cared for 28 children at their home in a charred

Somerset Earlier this year Somerset County Council's Social Services Department asked them to sign a contract to implement labor's new sexual orientation

Regulations part of the Equality Act 2006 which make discrimination the grounds of sexuality illegal

Officials told the couple that under the regulations they would be required to discuss same -sex relationships with children as young as 11 and Tell them that gay partnerships were just as acceptable as heterosexual marriages

They could also be required to take teenagers to gay association meetings when the

Mathericks objected They were told they would be taken off the register of foster parents The Mathericks have decided to resign rather than face the humiliation of being expelled.

Mr Matherick a 65 year old retired travel agent and a primary school governor said I Simply could not agree to do it because it is against my central beliefs.

We have never Discriminated against anybody, but I cannot preach the benefits of homosexuality when I believe it is against the

Word of God Mrs. Matherick 61 said they had asked if they could continue looking after their foster son until he has found a permanent home

But officials refused and he will be placed in a council hostel on Friday She said he was very upset to begin with we were all very close

But he's a mature young man and he's dealing with it the couple who have six grandchildren and one great -grandchild

Are both ministers at the non -conformist South Chard Christian Church when they first started fostering

They took in young single mothers and their babies more recently. They have been caring for children of primary school age.

Mr. Matherick added It's terrible that we've been forced in this corner. It just should not happen. There are not enough foster carers around anyway

Without these rules they were saying that we had to be prepared to talk about sexuality with 11 year olds

Which I don't think is appropriate anyway, but not only that to be prepared to explain how gay people date

They said we would even have to take a teenager to gay association meetings. How can I do that when it's totally against what

I believe? Religious campaigners say the couple are the latest victims of an equality drive which puts gay rights above religious rights

Christian Jewish and Muslim leaders have complained that the rules forced them to overturn long -held beliefs

The Mathericks are planning to fight their case in the courts with the backing of the lawyers Christian Fellowship The same organization is backing

Christian magistrate Andrew McClintock who resigned from the family courts in a row over gay adoption

He says he was forced to resign because he was not allowed to opt out of cases Where he might have to send a child to live with gay parents the

Mathericks case comes at a time when there is a chronic shortage of foster parents who work on a Voluntary basis an extra 8 ,000 are needed to plug the gaps in the service

Researchers have found that continually moving children from home to home can have a devastating impact on their education and general welfare

But a report last year revealed that the shortage of cares meant that some children in care are being forced to move up to three times a year

David Taylor Somerset County County Council's corporate director for children and young people said no decision has been made about the deregistration of mr.

And mrs. Matherick the council is committed to promoting the interests of children and young people and welcomes foster carers from all backgrounds and faiths

Yeah, as long as you believe in uber rights for homosexuals That's what's uh, that's what's heading our direction.

I love how they describe the church as non -conformist Well, that's an actual technical term in regards to the

Church of England, so I guess I You can't oh so American here, but yep, but in fact it describes them obviously in this situation

Well in that they are not conforming to the secularization and whatever else you want to call

Whatever is happening to that. That's not that's not so much even secularization as it is the establishment of uber rights

Based upon sexuality it is Absolutely an incredible thing and it's coming our direction.

There are all sorts of people we see this we saw this last week in California with the signing of legislation into law by Arnold Schwarzenegger and It is the only thing

I can hope is eventually people because the vast majority of people find homosexuality reprehensible

And eventually, you know as long as it's somebody else They'll go. Oh, well, I'll be open -minded about even the sinner

Gets tired of having things just shoved down his throat Yes, and the only thing I can hope for is a backlash to where you go.

Wait a minute. That's enough of that We're not granting rights based upon how you have sex Okay, that's the if anything shows the degradation of a society over time.

It's when you start basing rights Upon sex that's that's it just doesn't it just doesn't

Then getting worse than that. So our societies are In a moral freefall and this is this is the result and of course, this is so so plain

The the what's best for this child here is not what matters. It is the promotion of uber rights for homosexual

Homosexuality that that's all it matters What's right for these children doesn't matter and there is an implicit moral assertion that what is best for children is to teach them about homosexuality and to adopt one particular worldview that says

Homosexual marriages are equal to heterosexual marriages. There's no such thing as a homosexual marriage and for a

Christian there can't be Jesus Christ made it very very plain what a marriage is and so what the society what the

British government has decided it has Authority to do and it will answer to God for this is to tell

Christians that you must disbelieve what Jesus teaches you about marriage So that we can have the political power of homosexuals.

That's what the British government's done and God will not be mocked Was there something you wished?

Okay, then you need to take your hands off of that button and move the microphone away because that's in it, that's the

Indication that you have something say it did it depressed me to read that that article but and maybe

Maybe it depresses you to read that article, but and to have it read to you

But we need to know what is going on out there and we need to know What these people are doing and it needs to be said clearly and openly this is you know

They always try to put this in the context that of putting the Christian on the defensive and saying you're the one

Who is being closed -minded here? These people do not want free speech for anyone, but themselves

They do not want anyone. I'm happy to debate How many

I've done three debates on homosexuality not one against a homosexual and one against Barry Lynn one against John Shelby Spong I don't have a problem doing that because I will say up front right now.

I Destroyed every person I debate on the subject. It wasn't even close. It wasn't even it's it's barely

You could barely call it a debate. I mean There's there's their worldview can not survive examination

So I don't have any problem with them having the ability to to present their their perspective

They are the ones have a problem with my being able to say that's evil and that's what's going on in our society and it's

Let me tell you These These things may seem like they're a long ways away because that's the

United Kingdom It's not that long an airline flight. It really isn't you go to sleep you wake up you're there and Unfortunately that pond is not much of a wall

Against that kind of stuff the stuff that we've mentioned on the blog the stuff going on in Sweden Where religious schools are being prohibited from being able to say that what they are teaching is true

Now it's initially meant against Islamic schools, you know that you can't say the Quran is true

That also means Christians can't say the Bible's true Europe has has become a secular state and that secularism is not gonna be able to stand for very long against Islam Just not to be able to do it

Everybody knows that on a simple matter of reproduction The number of children that Islamic immigrants to those other nations are having is so far beyond four or five six times

Beyond the number of children being had by the the native populations that Secularism will will crumble after trying as best it can

To establish itself and it's just not gonna be able to do it eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one we already have a

Phone call and I believe this is from Stephen up in Toronto. Hi For some reason

I hit air and nothing happens And click ah Something happened.

Hello, Stephen. Yes Well needing to figure out why my clicker clicker ain't working anymore

Okay By the way,

Stephen, how's how's the chin? Yeah, everybody everybody saw on the blog today that's that I gave you a right cross and I mean

Do you you know one of these bullying me? I tell you Bully bully me by baby eating

Calvinist. That's that's definitely definitely meters and there's photographic proof right there on the right there Well, we appreciate you having you on the cruise.

Oh, thank you. I really think we had a great time I'm so I guess I encourage all those that didn't go save their money for the next one well, we hope to have some some

Announcements and news about that in the not -too -distant future. But anyways, you received a phone call Yeah, I actually

I didn't need to do a phone call What I wanted to do was basically ask a question that was brought up during the debate with Shabir Ali with the passage in Luke 13 33 the prophet in Jerusalem and Exactly where he was going with that.

He actually brought up the same Same question with Tony Costa on Thursday. I was

Shabir well, this was more of a dialogue than the debate, but it was the The the same question with that and I was wondering what he was.

Did he make any comment respond to that? Did he make any comment on it with Tony brought it up like he did with you.

Hmm. Yeah Can't die outside of Jerusalem I'm I'm not

I'm not certain where he was going with that. My my assumption at the time was he was just trying to Present another attack upon the consistency of Scripture based upon the idea of taking outside of Jerusalem to be a technical phrase, but then to say well, but Jesus did die outside of Jerusalem as if That somehow was some, you know major point

I had never Honestly, and I suppose I could have missed it, but I doubt it

I had never heard him raise this issue with anyone else before and I Know Yeah, I never never heard it and I I told

Tony as soon as I got back from the cruise that I Said, you know, he he asked how it had gone and I said, well, you know, he threw this thing out

Which I had never heard of before so it's funny that That he brought that up with Tony at least he was aware that that might be heading his direction so,

I don't know because I What's what's unusual is certainly

Shabir would be able to have access to even liberal common commentaries and even liberal commentaries would recognize that The idea of Golgotha being outside of Jerusalem is a is a technical point without any merit.

I mean So I don't I honestly don't know why he'd do that and he would know that in his own

Quranic studies that the utilization of especially a major city

For example, there were there's Mecca and then there's the environs of Mecca and in some instances

You would have a very specific reference to Mecca and the city itself Entering into the city or something like that But in other instances the environs around Mecca would just simply be subsumed under the same general concept

So he knows that that's the case. I don't know why It did not seem at all relevant to the thesis

I mean it mentions, you know prophet perishing outside of Jerusalem, but You know, maybe there's something that we're just not getting that that he never expanded upon He didn't expand upon it with with Tony.

Well, what I what I found was that even with the the dialogue in Hamilton Thursday was that he's just so so much dust up in the air and You know,

I mean it's more or less preaching to the converted rather than the or the choir rather than Actually answering the questions and he really didn't address any of the points that that Tony brought out

With it. So I think it's the same thing And of course he did the the thing that he did with me with the five Revisions of the

Gospel of John which I know I'd never heard that one before Well, no, he brought that up in the in the debate as well, and I'm like well

What And I didn't get a chance to say this. I think I mentioned this Afterwards up up in my room with the folks that gathered up There was was when you make that kind of an assertion.

Not only are there people who? likewise present Theories about the stages of development of the

Quran and hence he'd have to I guess Accept those without any evidence because there's certainly no documentable evidence of these theoretical

Early forms of Luke or John or anything else but beyond that he he would have to admit that he cannot provide any kind of of Documentation from the first century and and when he was debating

Mike Lycona and Lycona kept citing Done on the early nature of the creedal statement first Corinthians 15

Eventually, he made this statement. He said well, that's just one scholars guess. That's just an individual's guess well the vast majority of the things that that Shabir likes to bring out like the

Gospel of Thomas earlier than Mark thing is the the guess of a single liberal scholar and there's no

Historical foundation upon which to build it outside of well, I just accept this one particular scholar is having a tremendous amount of Insight.

Well, you know, you can't you can't have your cake and eat it too. You either have to Stop taking one scholar and expanding that out to scholars have discovered as if these are facts

Or if you're gonna do the what's one scholars opinion then be consistent about that and recognize, you know what?

I pick a lot of different scholars and they're not really consistent with one another but I String them all together and that's the entirety of my argument against Christianity, but I don't accept it to be used against Islam I mean that really

Summarizes, I think that the main criticism that I've always I mean go back to the earliest, you know

Search on the name Shabir on my blog and from the first time I mentioned anything about him the first time

I listened to a debate the first time I listened to a Presentation and everything that I've written it has been the inconsistency in the utilization of sources he uses one standard for the

New Testament and a completely different standard for the Quran and If you just step back and go what does that mean?

It's it's very clear what that means if you don't use the same standards in your argumentation

I'm sorry, I just mean that's a sign of a failed. I have a failed argument. There you go Well, well, it was interesting was that I of course

I missed Thursday night DL but I did listen to the archive and I was listening to the Bart Ehrman and he was talking about reading the

Gospels horizontally and I said now where have I heard that before? Oh, yeah well, I think

I think they may be either using the same source or they they may be it may be a situation where Shabir is known of Bart Ehrman for a long long time.

I'm I think I mean I it just seems that this is where he's getting his Stuff and he also was bringing up about that Well, these you know

Maybe these liberal scholars have read the the Bible and see see me inconsistency and sort of he's sort of blaming the fault

On the Bible, but what about you know, we could quote the liberal Muslim Sources who no longer believe the

Quran is they no longer believe the Quran because they've read it and examined it He wouldn't accept that no well and I that there'd probably be a whole lot more of those liberal

Sources if it weren't for the fact that they would die in Islamic countries and that's

I mean, that's just a fact there's lots of history of scholars running afoul of a

Taliban like government and Finding themselves under a pile of rocks. Yeah, we Saw what happened to Salman Rushdie?

Well, yeah, and he's that he's not even in in that context. He's no, you know, it's amazing

He writes something that criticizes the Quran and you know, there's you know a death warrant placed on him

Yep, I hear you. Well Steve again. Thanks for being on the cruise and putting up with well, you know

I had to put up with your abuse all the time, too Yeah, just watch it watch it

I'm still in channel here. I still got out, you know For now, thanks a lot

Steven from Toronto who puts up with all of our mocking and ribbing because Steven isn't he's not a bad speller.

He's a sort of bad typist and so there are times when what appears in channel is a little bit on the humorous side and Sometimes when

I have good self -discipline, I don't say anything and then other times I do so And he puts up with it.

We appreciate him. All right, let's let's continue on here. Let's talk with with Mike Hi, Mike How you doing

Mike, okay, can you hear me? All right, I can hear you I guess I'm I'm just noticing a delay it gets to it eventually

But I'm using a new computer to do my stuff here and it it just sort of moves

Slowly to put you on the air. So not necessarily updated

Technology. Well, I gotta admit. This is my little tablet the third the third incarnation

The first two got ripped off and since the third incarnation, it's only a 512 megs of RAM So these days that's that's pretty tiny for a computer.

So maybe it's just going do you really want to do that? You know, I don't know Yes, sir.

Anyway, yeah, I just wanted to bring you up to speed. I told you I had talked to a few weeks ago I had met a mom here locally in Fort Myers and he and myself and a buddy of mine had met finally and one of the

Topics that had come up with this issue of hey, we have Three original versions now, it's up to three by the way

Usually if I started off as one, but now it's up to three original versions of the Quran Oh, and I asked him as well.

Give me the background exactly. Where are these original versions located? So he had given me the places

He said there's one in Istanbul at the National Museum of Turkey He said the second version is in Uzbekistan hope

I said that right. Mm -hmm. And the third is in China. Hmm, and that one was just recent

He said you can actually check this out on Al has al slash Jazeera Jazeera .net

slash English Yeah, that's the Al Jazeera Arab television network that we hear about all the time, which is just right on the cutting edge of Scholarly acumen no two ways about that one.

Yeah He was he was pretty emphatic about it, oh,

I'm sure that he is The problem is it's a Muslim's Muslim scholars are currently

Spinning in their offices going. Oh, please You know, it's that sounds a little bit to me honestly, and we shouldn't be surprised at this.

We have King James only folks Who you know? Say some pretty pretty wild -eyed things, you know, yeah

God re -inspired the Bible in 1611. Why not, you know, and so in in reality, there's a lot of argumentation as to whether the very earliest manuscripts that we have

Would from the Islamic perspective be Pre or post with monic obviously when

I refer to Uthman I'm referring to the Uthmanic revision around 655 or so and You know, that's pretty there's definitely early on there's no question about that but the idea of being original a

Serious Muslim would have a hard time with that Is he actually saying these are the ones that Uthman did or is he actually going back to Muhammad himself?

I remember what you said to me, you know, you said basically hey, there's no a

Serious Islamic scholar who would accept that assertion? No, and I did bring that up to him.

I said, well, can you name? is there any Islamic scholar or Muslim apologist that would in fact agree with that?

Oh, yeah, they're out there. I said, well, can you give me any names? Well, I can't think of any right now Well, you know did you see my debate with Hamza Abdul Malik?

Yes, absolutely. Well, no, I'm sorry We have not seen that that's coming up. We will be viewing that. Okay well, then you're gonna see that that's not the first time that that defense has been used because Hamza Abdul Malik's entire assertion was that every text that I Raise that teaches the deity of Christ is a later interpolation

It's a later corruption of the text. And so I just went to the only thing you can do in a debate like that I'm like, okay, where's your evidence?

Show me a manuscript. Well, they're there. Well, can you name one? I know no, no, you don't need to be asking about it. I can't name one off the top of my head right now

I said, well, look I've got I've got a critical edition Greek New Testament Can you give me a manuscript that doesn't have these verses?

Well, they're there. I just you know, they're there I said well, can you know scholars say so? Okay. Can you name a scholar?

Well, no, not right now I can't name a scholar, but there are scholars who agree with me and you're just like Wow, I'm not gonna get an answer here because there is no answer and everyone obviously knows there's no answer

But yeah, I had read that to matter of fact in preparation and dealing with maybe talk to this guy

Should something come up? I read that little portion your scripture alone book, right? I did that's right.

That's right Well, it's fun to actually listen to it and to actually watch it and you know, because it's one thing to read it

But another one to actually see someone sitting there in front of an entire audience going. Oh, they're there They're there and you know, he knows they're not there, but he's saying it.

Anyways, it's amazing Well at any rate I wanted to send you I want to mail something to your PO box If I could unless you have this

I keep actually provided me something to read It's called the truth about Jesus by dr.

Ellis m a n e h manna, I guess Here dr.

Mena Hamid al -juhani May with the name Yeah, I think

I may have seen it on the answering Islam org website

But I could be wrong about that. I mean I'd like to take a look at it because I have

I have a huge text I'll have it in here in the in the studio right now, but I have a very large text put out

Fairly recently here in the United States, which is sort of a compendium of their anti deity of Christ arguments

Okay, and it's about four or five hundred pages long. So this would probably be along the same lines. I would assume well

This is only this is just a little booklet. It's only 20. Oh goodness 23 pages long

He said no problem. Mm -hmm. And so I wanted to send this to you, but I wasn't sure if you already had it So yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, go ahead. Take a look. Take a look. All right Okay, very good. All right. Thank you very much. Take care.

I got less. Bye. Bye. Well, the drop button works. Well But okay,

I'm gonna I'm gonna choose this one and Once it's selected, let's see if we can get

Kendall in Iowa up one click two clicks three clicks four clicks no, it just There there.

Did you have to do it? Okay. All right, Kendall Hello James. Hello. How are you doing?

Well yourself doing? All right, great. Hey, I ordered your debate on purgatory with The Catholic apologist

I didn't I didn't think it was with a Mormon apologist Stravinsky's yes, because I've also done one online with with the

Robertson Janice. Okay, and I'm gonna show it on Sunday night Because Sunday night

I did talk about The latest you know the cat the Pope came out saying, you know, the

Roman Catholic Church is the true church nothing new there, right and Just to prepare them to engage we live in a community with a lot of Catholics in the

Midwest So my question I'm calling in if you were to you know, you you've got purgatory the

Pope the you know All the sacraments but in dialoguing with Catholics, what have you felt?

What do you think is the most effective way? What topic should you bring up with them to get the dialogue rolling?

Is it justification? I'm talking about your average Catholic well Well your average

Catholic It would sort of depend a little bit upon whether you're talking about your average Catholic who?

Only goes to church a couple times a year type average Catholic Which is more of a nominal cultural type

Catholic whether you're talking about average Catholic who really does attend services fairly regularly but isn't necessarily a apologist type or something along along those lines and In in both instances, honestly in in the

Roman Catholic controversy, I presented as the key message that you wish to Communicate and that's going to get you to all those other subjects eventually is the issue of peace whether a person truly has peace with God a

Peace that is based upon something outside of themselves or a peace that is based upon their performance their constant running on the treadmill of sacramentalism

To to keep it in in place and I think that works Well that that works with any person in whose life the

Holy Spirit is actively bringing conviction of sin I mean if you're talking to anybody I don't care if they're a

Catholic or a Mormon or a Muslim or a plain old pagan and There's there's no evidence.

The Holy Spirit of God has is bringing any Enlightenment to their eyes at all you're you're not getting where with with them no matter what your approach is but I agree

I like to I like to focus on the issue of peace and how a person can have peace and the impossibility of a person having true peace within Roman Catholicism and and as long as the person really does understand the

Roman Catholic faith and they've experienced Repetitive confession of sin and going to Mass Repetitively and and yet they are not perfected thereby that gives you the grounds upon which to contrast

What it means to truly be justified and hence to have peace with God Romans 5 1

What it means to have a perfect sacrifice of Christ that perfects those for whom the offering is made

Hebrews chapter 10 Or whether you're stuck with the beginning of Hebrews chapter 10 a repetitive sacrifice

It never perfects anyone and hence is incomplete in of itself, which is what all Rome really has to offer to us.

And so It you can go a number of different directions from that general subject of how a person has peace the

Holy God and Very quickly find out if this person has a very low view of sin You know or a very high view of the sacraments

You can get some information pretty quickly that'll they'll give you an idea of which direction that you're gonna go

Obviously a more cultural Catholic and especially one who's growing up within a more conservative

Catholic background Issues like purgatory are going to be worthwhile because that's something that many of them fear, especially older Catholics You know any any older Catholics lived in the 50s and 60s and stuff well know what pre

Vatican II was like in regards to The concept of purgatory and things like that and and what you'll see if you've not seen the

Stravinskis debate Honestly to me aside from some of the amazing things that took place, especially during cross -examination

One of the one of the drawbacks of debate is that it illustrates what happens when you have an individual who quite honestly it's just a little bit arrogant and When when

Stravinskis had first been contact remember he's the yet. He's got two PhDs. He's teaches at Ivy League schools he he has

Editor of the Catholic answers written. I don't know how many books on Catholic apologetics You would think that if anyone would know the value and necessity of preparing

It would be him, but clearly Pete hadn't read anything I had ever I had ever written anything

I'd ever said when he was first contacted He said who would I be debating and they said James Weiss. Oh, he's harmless and so he walked in there and literally, he's making a presentation where he's talking about a dialogue with Jimmy Swaggart as if Jimmy Swaggart is in the slightest bit relevant to me and So the result was just a massacre, but in the course of the massacre

You see I think more clearly than any of the justification debates we've done the vast difference between the

Roman Catholic view of Grace and justification and the biblical view and so on that level

It's extremely useful and whatever you do don't skip the audience questions at the end I I happen to watch the the first and the last one.

Okay, so you did you see pay me now or pay me later? Yeah, why I watched the whole the

Q &A part of You guys where you did get into the sacrifice of Christ did did it perfect us for you know, once and for all by his his work and How he

I don't think he really ever came back and answered that no Because he still talked about payments for since I thought the question was interesting where a guy brought up about Tobit yes, yes payment.

Yes, and he was he didn't disagree with no He was saying yeah, that's charity. That's Yeah Yeah, it really

I thought was was one of the best debates not in that on the subject itself

He did a really good job because he melted down in first Corinthians 3 I mean clearly that that was one of the most amazing experiences of my my all my debates was you know?

Here's the guy clearly thinking, you know Rome's view is you know, we've got all the scholarship know that's the stuff

I'm just sitting there with my Greek New Testament. Let's walk through this text and he couldn't do it. I mean he Every question

I'd ask his his position was just was just falling apart all around him And then when I asked him who's the blessed man?

Well, I hope I am First well first he says Jesus is I'll say so Jesus is the one to whom

God will not impute his sins And so he could tell you rethought that one real quick and came back with well

I hope I will be and I mean talk about illustrating really what the whole thing is all about So and I am coming at it from a reformed point of view doctrine of election and So I know you know

We're to defend the faith. And so I was just wondering, you know purgatory for me seems to be one of those topics

That will get into justification. How do we stand before God and the whole idea of merit?

Uh -huh Yes They're conservative if they are conservative and conservative and somewhat knowledgeable if they are a cultural

Catholic I've had a lot of them go. Well didn't Vatican to change all that and then and honestly they just go you know if they're in a really

Liberal parish, they're never gonna hear about this stuff. The their priests are gonna if their priests are liberal

They're not going to be even bothering to talk about what the church says Then it becomes incumbent upon you to know the

Catholic Catechism well enough to point out how often it talks about purgatory and indulgence and stuff like that and that frequently in a

Witnessing situation is just too much time investment up front to try to lay a foundation So that's where just going with the peace issue, you know might be a little bit easier depending on you know

Where the person is coming from which sometimes you can't tell you know in that type of thing and one quick question I noticed you're revamping the

Shopping cart page on your website yes, and Where you have listed there?

I didn't know if you're going to add like you have the great debate to read great debate for but it doesn't really When you look at it doesn't say what that great debate for is about which one deals with The issue of justification.

I have the riches rich is now staring the screen going Obviously, I don't actually order stuff

So he's he's pulling up the shopping cart as quickly as he possibly can in the other room going.

I don't know Does it say who which which was the debate was with who was debating?

I think you have to you have to click on each one. Yes Okay, and that brings up a description and it does bring up a description.

Okay. Yep. Okay. Yeah, and so the one We've got the purgatory one if I you did one on justification.

Yeah, unfortunately that was with Roberts I've done a couple unjustification the one with with Roberts and Janice Is is number four is that rich?

Okay that one that one's it's alright So Janice has a little bit of an odd presentation

So I'm not you know in the question -answer period you do get into some of the stuff where he's saying like sons of there there will be sons of God in hell and Some of those things come up, but it's not nearly as clear honestly,

I wish and I Make the call again there are videos of A debate the first debate

I ever did on justification with Father Mitchell Pacwa in San Diego But it's the

Catholics who have the videos and they will not to distribute them. So We have the audios you can listen to that, but you can't you can't get to watch it

And I think do we have another I'm trying to think of we have any other justification Debates, I know

I debated Jerry Matta ticks on the subject Once or twice, but I don't think it was part of the great debates so I think the rest of it's just all audio and and the only video one we have is with Some Janice who's no longer really considered or Oh fastigi.

Yeah, but that's only what half an hour 90 minutes. How long was that? There is one with Robert fastigi.

It is 90 minutes. Okay. I was a fairly decent length one Okay, what's your latest one? The great of course,

I got that information from the shopping cart. Oh, thank you rich Rich riches put a lot of time into the shopping cart

So he's just wanting to make sure everybody knows you can click on things and see what it's about Yeah, it might be helpful when you first click on the shopping cart where it says the great debate five just to put in brackets

Or something purgatory. I am clicking on them and seeing which one right?

Like I was looking at two great debate ten. You actually do get into Purgatory justification all that in that debate.

Is that correct? Who is it with? Rutland, oh

Yeah, well we got into a lot of stuff with Bill Rutland the problem is within a week and a half afterwards

It was the Catholics that would throw and pour a bill under the bus That was supposed to be on the issue of Inclusivism and so as a result we did end up talking about all sorts of things which would include

The nature of justification things like that But not nearly to the depth that we did with Stravinsky's because we were supposed to be talking about, you know what the modern

Roman Catholic Church Church teaches about Muslims worshiping God and stuff like that and so Even though the

Stravinsky's debate was pretty clear There there was really less less of a fight put up by Bill Rutland than by Peter Stravinsky's So I mentioned

Sunday night, would you say that Bill Webster's book on Matthew 16 dealing with Apostolic succession is probably one of the best books on that topic then well, yeah,

I mean Bill's Bill's work is great Unfortunately a lot of the books that are the best on the subject as far as real in -depth history

Just aren't really available anymore except in forms like Google Books and stuff like that for example

George Salmon's work on the infallibility of the church well We have

Why I'm just one name disputations and Holy Scripture available. That's what Soledad Gloria, isn't it? That's that's out.

I think Salmon's is available through Google Books actually But again, that's you know, not the easiest thing to read

So there there are a lot of works that came out, but they're just not you know

All that easy to to track down these days, unfortunately, okay. All right. I appreciate it.

Okay. Thank you very much All right. God bless. I'm not sure if you

I did that So I you could you have to put them on I have to take them off Okay Whatever Don't ask don't ask me.

What's uh, what's what's what's going? I don't know Okay. All right

What did I have here I I've got two Mises in front of me and I keep trying to make a move on different computer and that doesn't work overly well

Let me take some time today given that it is October 30th to say something about Reformation Day.

I know that I never ever ever heard of Reformation Day until I went to a

Reformed Baptist Church up until that point Martin Luther was a guy from the 1960s pretty much so and Once I had some knowledge of the

Reformation then clearly this day or tomorrow specifically

Became much more important to me, obviously The commemoration of the posting of the 95 theses

Is somewhat of a convention Clearly the Reformation didn't start that day because there is no start date to the

Reformation as Is the case with almost all of church history any? major movement

Has all sorts of precursors that lead to it There from a human perspective.

It could have started earlier. It could have started later We don't know why the actions of a particular individual such as Martin Luther Lead to the results that they do

It's it's a convention to look at this, but it's a convention that I think is a good one Because we as human beings we see in Scripture that God does have his people celebrate holidays and that these are are meant to commemorate things that God has done in in the past and to remind us of God's faithfulness

Over time to his people and that he has continued to build his church and Clearly October 31st 1517 is a is an important day along those lines

But as in so many things in the history of the church when Martin Luther woke up that morning

He didn't have butterflies in his stomach He did a few years later at the Council of at the

Diet of Worms, but he didn't that morning when he went to the

Castle Church in Wittenberg and and on the doorposts where other things would be posted

He posted the 95 theses This was not something he woke up that morning and wrote he had been working on these for quite some time

There was a development that led to it and in fact there are discernible clearly discernible historical movements and Developments for hundreds of years prior to Luther that Led to that fateful morning when he posted those 95 theses.

He was being a simple academic He was challenging someone to debate and remember this is pre

ESPN this is pre CNN. This is pre almost anything

Printing has only been in existence for a small amount of time in Western culture at this point the pigeon point in time and So communication, you know, we are so accustomed to rapid communication today you know,

I'm sitting here and I just pulled out my Blackberry to see if a summer has texted me because Today is the first day.

She's back in Carter's class since I posted his last anti -christian tirade and So I'm sort of wondering if I'm gonna get a text message, you know about today's anti -christian tirade or something else

But people couldn't do that only a few years ago. Let alone could they even dream of such speed of communication?

Let alone speed of movement as as we experience today and so There are all sorts of developments the invention of printing the the publication of the

Greek New Testament Erasmus's work and Carly Jimenez's completion polyglot. The the

Renaissance was absolutely Vitally important the the Reformation could not take place prior to the

Renaissance Because it was in the Renaissance that you have and the Crusades for that matter because it's in that those two movements

You have the creation of a middle class You have a rise in literacy. You have a study of original sources.

You have the creation of universities All these things come together to create the very soil in which the

Reformation message germinates and and creates the

Reformation movement itself and so Luther was the product of Many many many movements coming together in that one particular point and of course human beings would have no possible way of predicting

Where this would take place, I mean from a human perspective Wycliffe was a considerably better candidate to begin the

Reformation than a Luther would be far more Intellectually rigorous and and things like this, but the time simply wasn't yet, right he

He is living prior to Gutenberg's invention which Church eventually called Gutenberg's folly because that Invention was necessary to the spreading of the message and Up to that time the

Roman Church had utilized the fact that you couldn't get the message out to too many people and once you Kill the heretic.

That's the end of the problem of the message and then you track down his followers and then all as well so There were all these different movements that came together and when

Luther post those things He was simply doing what an academic did it was back then

And you could if you want to well the major differences between then and today when major universities

Have a rivalry today. It is almost never Because of their teaching staff.

It is almost never intellectual in Content it is almost always physical in content here in the great state of Arizona You have two major universities and any use not a small university up in Flagstaff But you have two major universities,

Arizona State University which I believe is ranked in the top ten in college football at the moment and the

University of Arizona in Tucson and They have a tremendous rivalry going between them in basketball, which you have a almost always wins these days and football which right now is he was winning all the time and You know, they try to sneak in and paint each other's there's a big a up on the mountain outside of the campus in Tempe and they try to sneak in there and paint it the

U of a colors before the games and you know people have to go up and sit on the mountain all night and protect it and all this kind of silliness and this is the nature of rivalries between between universities back then

You didn't have football teams You had the great professors from from each competing

University and they would have debates multi -day debates and then after the debate was over all the students would go out and party in the streets and have fistfights and Drink way too much

German beer and that's what was what was college life and university life back in in those days and So That's what

Luther was doing the 95 theses were a call for Reformation Within the church.

He was not looking at starting a new church He was not looking at changing the political face of Europe.

It was a farthest thing from his mind He was he he certainly lit the match and The conflagration

Shocked even him. I mean when when the peasant revolt of 1525 takes place Luther is just he's he's beside himself

Because it looks like he has released absolute anarchy upon the land which has to happen given the fact that up until this point in time

Rome in essence is is you know still a sacral institution the the Church of Rome and and government are

Intertwined and it had been that way for as long as a bike remember and the idea of of Separating that and changing that even

Luther didn't have that idea The first reformers were all magisterial reformers. They're a sacralist

They likewise believed that the church and state had to be one and and that the the state had the right to punish heretics and and things like that and In fact within a very short period of time after 1517

Luther is amenable to the utilization of the death penalty against Anabaptists and so Even the

Reformation itself, you know, we we get this silly idea and part of its because we put out silly books, honestly that have these dates in them and We put these dates with certain developments and so, you know

Let's say Rome makes a dogmatic definition about something. Well like the bodily assumption of Mary Okay, so, you know 1950s you you put that number there and unfortunately what we think is

Oh, this is the day that it poof popped into existence. That's not the case obviously even

Marian dogmas that are very very late like the bodily assumption of Mary still existed as a belief with somebody long before the dogmatic definition itself comes into Into existence and so in History, all of these things are not as cut and dried as we would like to have them to be

To put on it in a little chart on on the page of a book someplace But we do tend to look at it that way and hence don't realize that things like the

Doctrine of Purgatory There are all sorts of precursor beliefs that had to come into existence before purgatory

Could begin to take on the form that it has that it has today And in the very same way when when

Luther did what he did he was riding on the crest of a wave of all sorts of different angles coming together the rise of nationalism to where you know for a long time people viewed themselves as as Part of the

Holy Roman Church first and then where they lived was secondary But now people were thinking themselves as Germans Over against Italians and the

Germans didn't like the fact that the Italians would take their money to build pretty churches in Italy That was an important element in the rise of the

Reformation Because Rome had not really been seeing that and had not really recognized

Just how strongly people felt about that all sorts of these things came together on October 31st 1517 and No one that day had a clue

That that date would become important to generations to come It's doubtful that during Luther's life anyone really attached any particular importance to the date

But when we look back through history We see these streams coming together into this large flood of waters

This this force of the change of history what unleashed it Where did all of a sudden the the the

Whole movement all of a sudden changed course and all of a sudden things come to the surface well clearly in the ministry of Martin Luther you have the

Standing before Charles and and the the beginning of the fact that the Holy Roman Empire itself basically is is religiously destroyed

You literally have wars breaking out because you are having a fundamental change in how government is being viewed how religion is being viewed and as long as you're

Overriding government for hundreds of years has been a religious one. You have a change in religion. You have a change in government and You know some people say well not all the results the

Reformation were good well, that's true I mean secularism is a part of the result of the

Reformation I mean as long as you had Rome in charge of everything you couldn't have secularist because they'd be tied to a stake and burned

That was changing. No one can argue that wasn't going to change And I would argue that you look at Roman Catholic nations today, and they're just as secular as The northern

European nations are you look at northern northern Italy compared to southern Italy? It's like two different nations as far as worldview goes and things like that so when we think of October 31st

Obviously I look back at it, and and I go here is a point in time where God acts decisively and There were many

Great Christian men and women prior to that time Who gave their lives in the hopes of someday seeing something like that taking place and there would be many who would give their lives

Thereafter to continue it tremendous stories in regards to Well Wycliffe's bravery and Jan Hus at the

Council of Constance and things like that these were Important people and before Luther they died not seeing what they hoped

Would come from their their own ministries But we are the heirs of that Reformation the fact that we have the freedom to Preach the gospel today goes back to that point in time

And it's it's should be shocking to us That in the very same land where once it was the

Roman Catholic Church that sought to silence any and all expression of opposition viewpoints now

It's the secularist state doing the very same things that the Inquisitors did only five and six hundred years ago

Do we not learn from history do we do we not See these these things repeating themselves

Evidently people in in Europe are not seeing that and they obviously need to and they need to do so very very quickly

So if people ask, oh, do you have you know a special Reformation Day service? Well, not so much in in our church

But I frequently do speak on the the subject of Reformation Day and things like that.

I Haven't actually Decided if possibly on the Lord's Day I might do something a little different in the adult

Sunday school class and and possibly review some of these issues I don't know. I should mention that for those of you listening live today

If you turn on tune over after the dividing line to a WNYG listen to Iron Sharpens Iron, you'll get to hear

Jim Swan our own Tiquid from the Apostle Paul Guillaume blog will be on discussing

Luther With Chris Arnson so if you want to hear much much more about Luther then you can tune in Iron Sharpens Iron and Hopefully when

I walk into my office here in a few minutes My computer will be faithfully recording Sharpens iron because it would look really sad if we didn't get this one recorded because Jim Swan's gonna be on so so hopefully you all can

Tune on over there and get another hour of Discussion of Reformation Day issues and probably hear a lot of similar things

I've just actually said at least I would hope so but with much more brilliance as as Jim Swan likes to say

So I thought that's the WNYG you can if you go to Sharpens blog spot comm there will be a link there that you can follow

To listen live or if you can't listen today, obviously, I will be uploading the

The file right after the the program is over so you can listen to it as well

I will listen to it myself because who knows maybe I'll get I don't get to sit around reading as much

Luther as I would Like as I mentioned on the blog this morning. I was till late in the evening last evening doing

Arabic tutoring session and looking at the the Tanween and being utilized on to differentiate in fact

Did you did you know that if you have an adjective and a noun and the the nouns indefinite and the adjectives definite?

I'll never mind Just giving me the you really shouldn't be doing Yes, I'm actually enjoying my study of that it's it's good stuff well, thanks for listening to the violin line today we will be back on Thursday Afternoon, I didn't even get to my

Patrick Madrid clip today, and I had some other stuff queued up But hey, that's all right

Lord. Will we'll get to tackle it on Thursday afternoon. See you then god bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at P .O.

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