Various Topics

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now, it's 602 -973 -4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic here is James white. And welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning.

Good to be with you. I was given an URL that I looked at last night that once again for our brothers and sisters over in the United Kingdom. Cannot be good news, but obviously what starts there comes our direction and there are lots and lots and lots of radicals in our own nation of the United States that would Like to see this would applaud this greatly.

This is from the Daily Mail from 24th of October. Title foster child to be taken away because Christian couple refuses to teach him about homosexuality. They are devoted foster parents and an unblemished record of caring for almost 30 vulnerable children.

But Vincent and Pauline Matherick will this week have their latest foster son taken away because they have refused to sign new sexual equality regulations. To do so they claim would force them to promote Homosexuality and go against their Christian faith.

The 11 year old boy who has been their care for two years. We placed in a council hostel this week and the Mathericks will no longer be given children to look after. The devastated couple who have three grown-up children of their own became foster parents in 2001 and have since cared for 28 children at their home in a charred Somerset.

Earlier this year Somerset County Council's Social Services Department asked them to sign a contract to implement labor's new sexual orientation regulations part of the Equality Act 2006 which make discrimination the grounds of sexuality illegal.

Officials told the couple that under the regulations they would be required to discuss same-sex relationships with children as young as 11 and Tell them that gay partnerships were just as acceptable as heterosexual marriages.

They could also be required to take teenagers to gay association meetings when the Mathericks objected. They were told they would be taken off the register of foster parents. The Mathericks have decided to resign rather than face the humiliation of being expelled.

Mr Matherick a 65 year old retired travel agent and a primary school governor said I Simply could not agree to do it because it is against my central beliefs. We have never Discriminated against anybody, but I cannot preach the benefits of homosexuality when I believe it is against the Word of God.

Mrs. Matherick 61 said they had asked if they could continue looking after their foster son until he has found a permanent home. But officials refused and he will be placed in a council hostel on Friday.

She said he was very upset to begin with we're all very close. But he's a mature young man and he's dealing with it. The couple who have six grandchildren and one great-grandchild. Are both ministers at the non-conformist South charred Christian Church when they first started fostering.

It took in young single mothers and their babies more recently. They have been caring for children of primary school age. Mr Matherick added it's terrible that we've been forced in this corner. It just should not happen.

There are not enough foster carers around anyway without these rules. They were saying that we had to be prepared to talk about sexuality with 11 year olds, which I don't think is appropriate anyway. But not only that to be prepared to explain how gay people date.

They said we would even have to take a teenager to gay association meetings. How can I do that when it's totally against what I believe? Religious campaigners say the couple are the latest victims of an equality drive which puts gay rights above religious rights.

Christian Jewish and Muslim leaders have complained that the rules forced them to overturn long-held beliefs. The mavericks are planning to fight their case in the courts with the backing of the lawyers.

Christian Fellowship. The same organization is backing Christian magistrate Andrew McClintock who resigned from the family courts in a row over gay adoption. He says he was forced to resign because he was not allowed to opt out of cases.

Where he might have to send a child to live with gay parents. The mavericks case comes at a time when there is a chronic shortage of foster parents who work on a voluntary Basis an extra 8 ,000 are needed to plug the gaps in the service.

Researchers have found that continually moving children from home to home can have a devastating impact on their education and general welfare. But a report last year revealed that the shortage of care is meant that some children in care are being forced to move up to three times a year.

David Taylor Somerset County Count County Council's corporate director for children and young people said no decision has been made about the deregistration of mr. And mrs Matherick the council is committed to promoting the interests of children and young people and welcomes foster carers from all backgrounds and faiths.

Sexual Rights, Religious Liberty, and the Limits of State Power

Yeah, as long as you believe in uber rights for homosexuals. That's what's so it's heading our direction. I love how they describe the church as nonconformist. Well, that's an actual technical term in regards to the Church of England.

So I guess I You can't oh so American here. But yeah, but in fact it describes them obviously in this situation. Well in that they are not conforming to the secularization and whatever else you want to call.

Whatever's happening to that. That's not that's not so much even secularization as it is the establishment of uber rights. Based upon sexuality it is Absolutely an incredible thing and it's coming our direction.

There are all sorts of people we see this we saw this last week in California with the signing of legislation into law by Arnold Schwarzenegger and It is the only thing I can hope Is eventually people because the vast majority of people find homosexuality reprehensible.

And eventually, you know as long as it's somebody else They'll go. Oh, well, I'll be open-minded about even the sinner Gets tired of having things just shoved down his throat like this. And the only thing I can hope for is a backlash to where you go.

Wait a minute. That's enough of that. We're not granting rights based upon how you have sex. Okay, that's the if anything shows the degradation of a society over time. It's when you start basing rights Upon sex that's that's it just doesn't it just doesn't Then getting worse than that.

So our societies are In a moral freefall and this is this is the result and of course, this is so so plain The the what's best for this child here is not what matters. It is the promotion of uber rights for homosexual Homosexuality that that's all it matters.

What's right for these children doesn't matter and there is an implicit moral assertion that what is best for children is to teach them about homosexuality and to adopt one particular worldview that says Homosexual marriages are equal to heterosexual marriages.

There's no such thing as a homosexual marriage and for a Christian there can't be Jesus Christ made it very very plain what a marriage is and so what the society what the British government has decided it has The authority to do and it will answer to God for this is to tell Christians that you must disbelieve what Jesus teaches you About marriage so that we can have the political power of homosexuals.

That's what the British government has done and God will not be mocked. Was there something you wished? Okay, then you need to take your hands off of that button and move the microphone away because that's in it, that's the Indication that you have something say it did it depressed me to read that that article but and maybe Maybe it depresses you to read that article, but and to have it read to you.

But we need to know what is going on out there and we need to know What these people are doing and it needs to be said clearly and openly this is you know. They always try to put this in the context that of putting the Christian on the defensive and saying you're the one Who is being closed-minded here these people do not want free speech for anyone, but?

Themselves. They do not want anyone. I'm happy to debate How many I've done three debates on homosexuality not one against a homosexual and one against Barry Lynn and one against John Shelby Spong. I don't have a problem doing that because I will say up front right now.

I Destroyed every person I debate on the subject it wasn't even close. It wasn't even it's it's barely bit. You could barely call it a debate. I mean There's there's their worldview cannot survive examination.

So I don't have any problem with them having the ability to present their their perspective. They are the ones have a problem with my being able to say that's evil, and that's what's going on in our society, and it's Let me tell you These These things may seem like they're a long ways away because that's the United Kingdom.

It's not that long an airline flight. It really isn't you go to sleep you wake up. You're there and Unfortunately that pond is not much of a wall. Against that kind of stuff the stuff that we've mentioned the blog the stuff going on in Sweden.

Where religious schools are being prohibited from being able to say that what they are teaching is true. Now it's initially meant against Islamic schools. You know that you can't say the Quran is true.

That also means Christians can't say the Bible's true. Europe has has become a secular state and that secularism is not gonna be able to stand for very long against Islam. Just not to be able to do it.

Everybody knows that on a simple matter of reproduction. The number of children that Islamic immigrants to those other nations are having is so far beyond four five six times. Beyond the number of children being had by the the native populations that Secularism will will crumble after trying as best it can To establish itself, and it's just not gonna be able to do it.

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one we already have a phone call and I believe this is from Steven up in Toronto. Hi well for some reason I hit air and Nothing happens and Clicked ah something happened.

Hello Steven. Yeah, how are you dr. White well needing to figure out why my clicker clicker ain't working anymore. Okay. Hey by the way by the way Steven how's how's the chin. Yeah. Everybody saw on the blog today, that's that I gave you a right cross, and yes Bully bully me by baby-eating Calvinist, that's that's definitely definitely meters, and there's photographic proof right there on the right there.

Well, we appreciate you having you on the cruise. Oh, thank you. I really think we had a great time.

So I guess I encourage all those that didn't go save their money for the next one.

Well, we hope to have some some Announcements and news about that in the not-too-distant future, but anyways you received a phone call.

Yeah, I actually I didn't receive a phone call. What I wanted to do was Basically ask a question that was brought up during the debate with Shabir Ali with the passage in Luke 13 33 the prophet in Jerusalem.

Mm-hmm. And Exactly where he was going with that he actually brought up the same Same question with Tony Costa on Thursday. I was he and should be. Well this was more of a dialogue than the debate, but it was the The the same question with that.

Did he make any comment. Respond to that. Did he make any comment on it with.

Like he did with you. Hmm. Yeah. Can't die outside of Jerusalem.

I'm I'm not I'm not certain where he was going with that my my assumption at the time was he was just trying to Present another attack upon the consistency of Scripture based upon the idea of taking outside of Jerusalem to be a technical phrase, but then to say well, but Jesus did die outside of Jerusalem as if.

That somehow was some you know major point I had never. Honestly, and I suppose I could have missed it, but I doubt it. I had never heard him raise this issue with anyone else before and I.

Yeah, I had never never heard it.

And I I told Tony as soon as I got back from the cruise that I said You know he he asked how it had gone, and I said well You know he threw this thing out which I had never heard of before so it's funny that That he brought that up with Tony at least he was aware that that might be heading his direction, so I don't know because I What's what's unusual is certainly Shabir would be able to have access to even liberal common commentaries and even liberal commentaries would recognize that The idea of Golgotha being outside of Jerusalem is a is a technical point without any merit I mean.

So I don't I honestly don't know why he'd do that and he would know that in his own Quranic studies that the Utilization of especially a major city for example there were there's Mecca. And then there's the environs of Mecca and in some instances You would have a very specific reference to Mecca and the city itself Entering into the city or something like that, but in other instances the environs around Mecca would just simply be subsumed under the same General concept so he knows that that's the case.

I don't know why It did not seem at all relevant to the thesis I mean it mentions. You know a prophet perishing outside of Jerusalem, but You know maybe there's something that we're just not getting that that he never expanded upon.

He didn't expand upon it with with Tony well what I what I found was that even with the the dialogue in Hamilton Thursday was that he's just so so much dust up in the air and you know I mean it's more or less preaching to the converted rather than the or the choir rather than Actually answering the questions, and he really didn't address any of the points that that Tony brought out With it, so I think it's the same thing.

And of course he did the thing that he did with me with the five Revisions of the gospel of John which I'd never heard that one before well.

No, he brought that up in the in the debate as well, and I'm like well What it and I didn't get a chance to say this I think I mentioned this Afterwards up up in my room with the folks that gathered up There was was when you make that kind of an assertion not only are there people who? likewise present theories about the stages of development of the Quran and hence he'd have to I guess Accept those without any evidence because there's certainly no documentable evidence of these theoretical Early forms of Luke or John or anything else, but beyond that he he would have to admit that he cannot provide any kind of of Documentation from the first century and and when he was debating Mike Lycona and Lycona kept citing Done on the early nature of the creedal statement first Corinthians 15.

Eventually he made this statement. He said well. That's just one scholars guess. That's just an individual's guess well the vast Majority of the things that that Shabir likes to bring out like the Gospel of Thomas earlier than Mark thing is the the guess of a single liberal scholar.

And there's no historical foundation upon which to build it outside of well I just accept this one particular scholar is having a tremendous amount of Insight well, you know you can't you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

You either have to stop taking one scholar and expanding that out to scholars have discovered as if these are facts. Or if you're gonna do the well, that's one scholars opinion then be consistent about that and recognize You know what I pick a lot of different scholars, and they're not really consistent with one another but I String them all together, and that's the entirety of my argument against Christianity, but I don't accept it to be used against Islam.

I mean that really Summarizes I think that the main criticism that I've always I mean go back to the earliest you know Search on the name Shabir on my blog and From the first time I mentioned anything about him the first time I listened to a debate the first time I listened to a Presentation and everything that I've written it has been the inconsistency in the utilization of sources.

He uses one standard for the New Testament and a completely different standard for the Quran. And if you just step back and go what does that mean? It's it's very clear what that means if you don't use the same standards in your argumentation I'm sorry.

I just mean that's a sign of a failed. I have a failed argument there you go.

Well, well it was interesting was that I of course I missed Thursday nights DL, but I did listen to the archive and I was listening to the Bart Ehrman. And he was talking about reading the Gospels horizontally, and I said now where have I heard that before.

Oh, yeah.

Well, I think I think they may be either using the same source or they they may be. It may be a situation where Shabir is known of Bart Ehrman for a long long time.

Yeah, well, I think I mean I it just seems that this is where he's getting his Stuff and he also was bringing up about that. Well These you know maybe these liberal scholars have read the the Bible and see see me inconsistency and sort of he's sort of blaming the fault.

On the Bible, but what about you know we could quote the liberal Muslim Sources who no longer believe the Quran is they no longer believe the Quran because they've read it and examined it.

He wouldn't accept that. No well, and I like that there'd probably be a whole lot more of those liberal Sources if it weren't for the fact that they would die in Islamic countries, and that's I mean that's just a fact there's lots of history of scholars running afoul of a Taliban like government and Finding themselves under a pile of rocks.

Yeah, we Saw what happened to Salman Rushdie. Well, yeah, and he's that he's not even in in that context. He's no. It's amazing. Yep, I hear you. Well Steve again. Thanks for being on the cruise and putting up with well.

You know I had to put up with your abuse all the time, too. Yeah, just watch it watch it. I'm still in channel here. I still got ups you know. For now thanks a lot. Steven from Toronto who puts up with all of our mocking and ribbing because Steven isn't he's not a bad speller.

He's a sort of bad typist and so there are times when what appears in channel is a little bit on the humorous side and Sometimes when I have good self-discipline, I don't say anything and then other times I do so.

And he puts up with it. We appreciate him all right. Let's let's continue on here. Let's talk with with Mike. Hi Mike.

How you doing Mike. Okay, can you hear me all right? I can hear you.

I guess I'm I'm just noticing a delay it gets to it eventually. But I'm using a new computer to do my my stuff here, and it it just sort of moves.

Slowly to put you on the air so not necessarily updated.

Technology. Well I gotta admit. This is my little tablet. The third the third incarnation the first two got ripped off and since the third incarnation It's only a 512 megs of RAM so these days. That's that's pretty tiny for a computer.

So maybe it's just going. Do you really want to do that. You know I don't know.

Yes, anyway, yeah, I just wanted to bring you up to speed. I told you I had talked to a few weeks ago I had met a mom. You're locally in Fort Myers off and a buddy of mine had met finally and one of the Topics they had come up with and now it's up to three by the way.

Usually that started off as one. But now it's up to three original versions of the Quran. And I asked him I said well give me the background exactly. Where are these original versions located. So he had given me the places.

He said there's one in Istanbul at the National Museum of Turkey right. Mm-hmm. And the third is in China. Hmm, and that one was just recent. He said you can actually check this out on Jazira Jazira .net.

Slash English.

Yeah, that's the Al Jazeera Arab television network that we hear about all the time, which is just right on the cutting edge of Scholarly acumen. No two ways about that one. Yeah.

He was he was pretty emphatic about it. Oh, I'm sure that he is.

The problem is it's a Muslims. Muslim scholars are currently Spinning in their offices going. Oh, please. You know it's that sounds a little bit to me honestly, and we shouldn't be surprised at this. We have King James only folks.

Who you know? Say some pretty pretty wild-eyed things. You know yeah, God re-inspired the Bible in 1611. Why not you know and so? In in reality. There's a lot of argumentation as to whether the very earliest manuscripts that we have Would from the Islamic perspective be Pre or post Uthmanic.

Obviously when I refer to Uthman I'm referring to the Uthmanic revision around 655 or so and You know that's pretty there's definitely early on there's no question about that, but the idea of being original a Serious Muslim would have a hard time with that.

Is he actually saying these are the ones that Uthman did or is he actually going back to Muhammad himself?

Muhammad himself really well, I remember what you said to me. You know you said basically hey, there is Islamic scholar. No, and I did bring that up to him. I said well, can you name is there any Islamic scholar or that would in fact agree with that?

Oh, yeah, they're out there. I said well. Can you give me any names? Well, I can't think of any right now.

Well you know did you see my debate with Hams Abdul Malik. Yes, absolutely well.

No, I'm sorry. We have not seen that. That's coming up. We will be viewing that okay.

Well, then you're gonna see that that's not the first time that that defense has been used because Hamza Abdul Malik's entire assertion was that every text that I Raised that teaches the deity of Christ is a later interpolation.

It's a later corruption of the text and so I just went to the only thing you can do in a debate like that I'm like okay. Where's your evidence? Show me a manuscript. Well. They're there. Well. Can you name one?

No, no, no you don't need to be asking about it. I can't name one off the top of my head right now I said well look I've got I've got a critical edition Greek New Testament. Can you give me a manuscript that doesn't have these verses well?

They're there? I just you know, but they're there so what can you know scholars say so okay? Can you name a scholar well? No, not right now. I can't name a scholar, but there are scholars who agree with me, and you're just like Wow I'm not gonna get an answer here because there is no answer and everyone obviously knows there's no answer, but.

Yeah, I had read that to matter of fact in preparation and dealing with. Maybe talk to this guy should something come up. I read that little portion your scripture alone book right. You included that.

Oh, I did. That's right. That's right. Yeah.

Well, it's fun to actually listen to it and to actually watch it. And you know because it's one thing to read it. But another one to actually see someone sitting there in front of an entire audience going.

Oh, they're there. They're there, and you know he knows they're not there, but he's saying it anyways. It's amazing.

Well at any rate I wanted to send you. I want to mail something to your PO box if I could unless you have this. Actually provided me something to read. I was called the truth about Jesus by dr. Ellis M a n e H.

Mana, I guess. Mm-hmm. Dr. Mena Hamid al-juhani.

Yeah, I think I may have seen it on the answering Islam org website. But I could be wrong about that. I mean I'd like to take a look at it because I have I have a huge text. I have it in here in the in the studio right now, but I have a very large text put out Fairly recently here in the United States, which is sort of a compendium of their anti deity of Christ arguments.

Okay, it's about four or five hundred pages long, so this would probably be along the same lines.

I would assume. Well. This is only this is just a little booklet. Oh goodness. 23 pages long. 24 pages long. And I asked him if I could photocopy it. He said no problem. Mm-hmm. And so I wanted to send this to you, but I wasn't sure if you already had it so.

Yeah, go ahead take a look take a right. Okay, very good. All right. Thank you very much. Take care. God bless. Bye. Bye. Well the drop button works well. But okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna choose this one and Once it's selected.

Let's see if we can get Kendall in Iowa up. One click two clicks three clicks four clicks. No, it just There there did you have to do it?

Okay, all right. Kendall. Hello James. Hello, how are you doing well yourself doing all right. Great? Hey, I ordered your debate on purgatory with the Catholic apologist.

I didn't I didn't think it was with a Mormon apologist. Yes, cuz I've. I've also done one online with with the Robertson-Jenner's okay.

And I'm gonna show it on Sunday nights. Because Sunday night I did talk about. Yes, you know the cat the Pope came out saying you know the Roman Catholic Church is the true church. Nothing new there, right?

And just to prepare them to engage we live in a community with a lot of Catholics. Mm-hmm here in the Midwest my question I'm calling in if you were to you know you you've got purgatory the Pope that you know all the sacraments.

But in dialoguing with Catholics, what have you felt? What do you think is the most effective way? What topic should you bring up with them to get the dialogue rolling. Is the justification? I'm talking about your average Catholic.

Well purgatory or.

Well your average Catholic. It would sort of depend a little bit upon whether you're talking about your average Catholic who? Only goes to church a couple times a year. Type average Catholic. Which is more of a nominal cultural type Catholic.

Whether you're talking about average Catholic who really does attend services fairly regularly, but isn't necessarily a apologist type or something along along those lines and in in both instances honestly in in the Roman Catholic controversy I presented as the key message that you wish to Communicate and that's going to get you to all those other subjects eventually is the issue of peace whether a person truly has peace with God a Peace that is based upon something outside of themselves or a peace that is based upon their performance their constant running on the treadmill of sacramentalism.

To to keep it in place, and I think that works. Well that that works with any person in whose life the Holy Spirit is actively bringing conviction of sin. I mean if you're talking to anybody I don't care if they're a Catholic or a Mormon or a Muslim or a plain old pagan and There's there's no evidence the Holy Spirit of God has is bringing any Enlightenment to their eyes at all you're you're not getting where with with them no matter what your approach is but I agree I like to I like to focus on the issue of peace and how a person can have peace and the impossibility of a person having true peace within Roman Catholicism and and as long as the person really does understand the Roman Catholic faith and they've experienced repetitive confession of sin and Going to Mass repetitively and and yet they are not perfected thereby that gives you the grounds upon which to contrast.

What it means to truly be justified and hence to have peace with God Romans 5 1. What it means to have a perfect sacrifice of Christ that perfects those for whom the offering is made. Hebrews chapter 10.

Or whether you're stuck with the beginning of Hebrews chapter 10 a repetitive sacrifice. It never perfects anyone and hence is incomplete in of itself, which is what all Rome really has to offer to us and so it you can go a number of different directions from that general subject of how a person has peace the Holy God and Very quickly find out if this person has a very low view of sin.

You know or a very high view of the sacraments. You can get some information pretty quickly that'll they'll give you an idea of which direction that you're gonna go. Obviously a more cultural Catholic and especially one who's growing up within a more conservative Catholic background.

Issues like purgatory are going to be worthwhile because that's something that many of them fear especially older Catholics. You know any any older Catholics lived in the 50s and 60s and stuff. Well know what pre-vatican to was like in regards to The concept of purgatory and things like that and and what you'll see if you've not seen the Stravinsky's debate.

Honestly to me aside from some of the amazing things that took place especially during cross-examination. One of the one of the drawbacks of debate is that it illustrates what happens when you have an individual who?

Quite honestly, it's just a little bit arrogant and. When when Stravinsky's had first been contacted remember he's the yet. He's got two PhDs. He's teaches at Ivy League schools he he has Editor of the Catholic answers written.

I don't know how many books on Catholic apologetics. You would think that if anyone would know the value and necessity of preparing. It would be him, but clearly he hadn't read anything I had ever I had ever written anything.

I'd ever said when he was first contacted. He said who would I be debating and they said James Weiss. Oh, he's harmless. And so he walked in there and literally he's making a presentation where he's talking about a dialogue with Jimmy Swaggart as if Jimmy Swaggart is in the slightest bit relevant to me and.

So the result was just a massacre, but in the course of the massacre. You see I think more clearly than any of the justification debates we've done the vast difference between the Roman Catholic view of Grace and justification and the biblical view and so on that level.

It's extremely useful and whatever you do don't skip the audience questions at the end.

I I happen to watch the the first and the last one. Okay. So you did you see pay me now or pay me later? Yeah, why I watched the whole the Q &A part of You guys where you did get into the sacrifice of Christ did did it perfect us for you know, once and for all by his his work and.

How he I don't think he really ever came back and answered that no. Because he still talked about payments for since I thought the question was interesting where a guy brought up about Tobit yes, yes payment.

Yes, and he was he didn't disagree with no Thing. Yeah, that's charity. That's.

Yeah. Yeah, it really I thought was was one of the best debates not in that on the subject itself. He did a really good job because he melted down in first Corinthians 3. I mean clearly that that was one of the most amazing experiences of my my all my debates was you know?

Here's the guy clearly thinking, you know Rome's view is you know, we've got all the scholarship and all that stuff. I'm just sitting there with my Greek New Testament. Let's walk through this text and he couldn't do it.

I mean he. Every question I'd ask his his position was just was just falling apart all around him. And then when I asked him who's the blessed man? Well, I hope I am first. Well first he says Jesus is I'll say so Jesus is the one to whom God will not impute his sins and He could tell.

He rethought that one real quick and came back with well I hope I will be and I mean talk about illustrating really what the whole thing is all about.

So and I am coming at it from a reformed point of view. Doctrine of election, etc. Mm-hmm. And so I know you know. We're to defend the faith. And so I was just wondering, you know purgatory for me seems to be one of those topics That will get into justification.

How do we stand before God and the whole idea of merit? Uh-huh.

They're conservative if they are conservative and conservative and somewhat knowledgeable if they are a cultural Catholic. I've had a lot of them go. Well didn't Vatican to change all that and then and honestly they just go you know if they're in a really Liberal parish, they're never gonna hear about this stuff.

The their priests are gonna if their priests are liberal. They're not going to be even bothering to talk about what the church says. Then it becomes incumbent upon you to know the Catholic Catechism well enough to point out how often it talks about purgatory and indulgence and stuff like that and that frequently in a Witnessing situation is just too much time investment up front to try to lay a foundation.

So that's where just going with the peace issue, you know might be a little bit easier depending on you know Where the person is coming from which sometimes you can't tell you know in that type of thing.

And one quick question.

I noticed you're revamping the Shopping cart page on your website. Yes, and where you have listed there. I didn't know if you're going to add like you have the great debate to read great debate for but it doesn't really.

When you look at it doesn't say what that great debate for is about which one deals with.

The issue of justification. I have the riches rich is now staring the screen going. Huh? Obviously, I don't actually order stuff. So he's he's pulling up the shopping cart as quickly as he possibly can in the other room going.