Dead Men Walking & Here I Stand Theology Podcast: Rod of Iron Cult Reformation Day Special!

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00:07

All right, welcome to the Here I Stand Theology Podcast, the

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Reformation Day crossover with Greg and Jason from Dead Men Walking.

00:21

How are y 'all doing? Howdy. Hey, Claude. How you doing? Doing good.

00:26

Doing good. Glad that we have got this opportunity to do this.

00:32

I know everything's busy with y 'all. So how are y 'all been doing? What's been going on in your lives?

00:39

I know, Greg, first of all, let me say this. If you're friends with Greg on Facebook, he has been bragging about what a manly man he is with his brand new hydraulic wood chopper.

00:55

No, I wasn't bragging about that. I think you put that in there, Claude. You started that rumor. We got to get him something real, like an ax.

01:02

I know. I actually had some friends ribbing me. They go, where's your ax at, you sissy? He had the plaid on, though, so he had that going for him, right?

01:10

Yeah, I looked the part. How about you,

01:15

Jason? What have you been up to? Doing well, man. Yeah, just my daughter is a little toddler, so I'm running all over the house, you know, trying to clean up after her and make sure she's all right and, you know, having fun being a dad, being a husband, so a lot of fun.

01:33

Sweet. Yeah. Are you doing good at your trading?

01:39

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Today, Tesla made a huge move.

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Hertz just ordered about 100 ,000 cars from them. Really? Yeah, man, that stock went flying today.

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I think it was up, I want to say $150 or something like that, so it went from about $910 all the way up to, it was over $1045 at one point,

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I'm pretty sure, but. Too rich for my blood. Wild. Yeah, well, I'll tell you what,

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I do options trading, so that's the kicker. If y 'all ever get into trading, you have to learn about options trading and, yeah, you keep those prices real low, you know, yeah, believe me,

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I'm not buying Tesla stock. I don't, I don't roll like that, so.

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Well, guys, we are here celebrating, of course, Reformation Day.

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For those who may not be aware what Reformation Day is, can y 'all inform us what

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Reformation Day is? Oh, absolutely. So it kind of started for me, well, I didn't start

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Reformation Day, let me clarify. I'm calling it Reformation Day because we wanted an option for our

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Christian friends for something other than, you know, Halloween or, you know, for those that just believe to flee the appearances of evil, we said, well, how nice is it that the

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Reformation, what we say, the birth of the Reformation, and on October 31st, 1517 was the birthplace of the

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Protestant Reformation, happens on what the world celebrates on Halloween.

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So I think I'm in my third annual Reformation Day on the 31st, we have a bonfire, we're here in fall now in Michigan, we just fellowship, commune with one another, and we might throw some beans, you know, do a little cornhole, do a little smoke and some brisket and some wings and stuff like that, and we do it all for the glory of God.

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And I know when Claude got ahold of me, he said, hey, you want to do something for Halloween? I said, I'll do something for Reformation Day, I'll do something for that, and we're so happy that you had us on, too, because it's a good subject, and I think it's something people need to hear about, but I'm probably skipping forward a little bit.

04:01

That's okay, that's okay. So those who are in the know, us being

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Reformed folk, Reformed men, we hold to Reformation principles, which those are basically, when we say that, we are talking about the five solas of the

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Reformation. Some folks wonder what are solas. Solas is Latin for alone and only, and we hold to the five solas, that we are saved by grace alone, sola gratia, by faith alone, sola fide.

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A good friend of mine, his country is all get out, but as though I'm not,

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I just heard my accent right there, he said, why is it pronounced sola fide when your football team does good, you say roll tide, you don't say roll t -day, but we hold to sola fide, faith alone, saved by grace alone through faith alone, solus

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Christus, Christ alone, it's his sacrifice alone, sola scriptura, based upon the

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Scripture alone, the truths of the Scripture. The Scripture is the highest authority for us as Christians.

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It is the sole authority for us as Christians, let me put it that way. And last of all, sola deo gloria,

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I like how Stephen Lawson puts it, it's like the foundation is sola, grace alone, by faith alone, in Christ alone, the pillars are the

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Scripture alone, and the peak of the pinnacle of the roof is a sola deo gloria for God's glory alone.

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Amen. Yeah. And then I would just say, Claude, too, I like to say to people, those are not only just Reformation principles, those are biblical principles.

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Yeah. Yeah. Amen. Amen. So, as far as the

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Reformation principles go, do you all have anything you'd like to add to those or to talk about on those before we move along, or...?

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I would just say, you know, those five points or those five solas are so great to witness and to teach off of, because they cover the five foundational points of what we believe as Christians.

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And I think sometimes as Reformed folk, we just get caught up in, oh, the five solas, the five solas, and it kind of becomes our

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Christianese, but if you examine each one of those, you know, you can go through and talk to a non -Reformed person or a

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Protestant or most likely not a Catholic, but maybe a non -dogma kind of believing

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Catholic, and you go through those, you don't have to even go through TULIP, you go through those, and you can say, look it, from that basis of Sola Fide and Sola Christa, since, you know...

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It's the gospel. It's the gospel, man. You know? Totally. So, it's like, I love those because it's...

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I love anything that takes really big ideas and kind of puts it into a nice, tight little package to where then I can expound off of, and the solas definitely do that.

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Right. Yeah, yeah. And I mean... Amen. You know, just to touch on a few verses if you guys don't mind, you know, with Sola Fide, Ephesians 1 .9,

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and what is the immeasurable greatness of His power toward us who believe according to the working of His great might, right?

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For it is the work of God, not of man, as Paul teaches in Ephesians.

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And then with Solus Christus, I always sound like a northern, southern man.

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Christus? Whenever I try to... You know? What are you talking about? What am I... Yeah, yeah, yeah. What am I even saying?

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So, 1 Timothy 2 .5, for there is one God and there is one mediator between God and men, the man,

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Jesus Christ, right? Foreshadowing to our conversation. Amen. I like it. That's right. And then

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Soli Deo Gloria, Romans 1 .16. Come on, bring it home.

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Let's not forget this. For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the

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Jew first and also to the Greek, right? I mean, you know, we could go through...

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Yeah, right? We could go through all five, but I tell you what, man, yeah, that is the gospel right there, man.

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And whenever you're talking to someone about the five solas, just like Greg was just saying, this is where we're at right now, baby.

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And you all just get ready right now because we're about to break it down for you. No, I'm just... Preach it, brother Jason. Come on.

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Preach. Yeah, right. Preach. I just love scripture, y 'all. I mean, seriously, man.

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Come on now. Exactly. It's our food, man. It's our bread. Amen. All right, Claude. Well, sola scriptura, 2

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Timothy 3 .16, right? The word of God is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine, for proof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

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It's God -breathed. Come on. It is God -breathed. And how can you not? Truly, guys,

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I mean, how can a Christian not get excited, not get...

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And I'll say it. I mean, I don't care. You're allowed to. Beside ourselves, when we start reading what the scriptures teach us, particularly concerning God's love and mercy to us, who are the worst of men?

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Every single one of us. By the way, that's scripture too. There's none good. There's no one righteous.

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There's none who seek after God. God is the one doing the seeking. I mean, it's a cliche term, really, and we've all heard folks say it, and we've all likely said it.

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You know, we'll talk about being saved, and we'll say, when we found Jesus, Jesus, we didn't find

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Jesus. He wasn't hiding. Right? Yeah. He was standing over in the corner. For some people, make it sound like he was in the corner going, please, can you please pick me?

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Yeah. Please. Put me in coaching. Yeah. Absolutely. No. That's the weak, sissified

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Jesus. Yeah, yeah. I do, that's one of my favorite memes, and as we like to say, we get all of our theology from memes.

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Right. Just kidding, but not. No, we're not. One of the best ones is when Paul's, you know, it's a painting, you know, a

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Renaissance painting of Paul being knocked off his beast, and it says, and there I was on my way to Damascus when

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I decided to choose Jesus. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I used my free will to choose

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Christ. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Say when Nebuchadnezzar, when he's eating grass and turning into a beast, you know, he decided to do that, right?

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Yeah. But I agree with you, Claude, how can you read those scriptures and not, and not feel, you know, and sometimes we get, we get knocked on here, like we don't like emotion.

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Well, we don't like me centered gospel. We don't like emotional driven theology, but God created our emotions, and if you can't have an emotional, spiritual response when you read the word of God, I don't know, man.

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Maybe you're being, I think it's because you're being distracted by other things of this world, which much of Western Christianity plays into.

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You know, they say, oh, no, no, don't, don't focus on what the word of God says. Maybe we need to focus on what we can get, material goods, health, wealth, whatever it is, promotion, you know, relationship with your family or friends, and it's like, those are a cheap, transparent, what's the word

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I'm looking for? You know, an imposter to what the word of God truly is, which is our salvation in Christ alone.

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That's the American gospel. Amen. Yeah, yeah. I can't remember who it was that said it, but, you know, the gospel was preached to folks nowadays, like Jesus is the icing on the cake.

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But Jesus, Jesus is the cake, he's the icing, he's the steak, he's the potatoes, he's everything.

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Yeah. Amen. Yep. All right, guys. So, man, this is this is good talk already.

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So now we're going to be Debbie Downers. I don't know if that was a sexist term or not.

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I've never really heard a killjoy related to a man. Did you just misgender

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Debbie? How dare you, sir? Man. But to be a

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Debbie Downer, now let's bring in really what we're going to be focusing on today, really, because the heart of the

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Reformation was bringing the church back to the scriptures, bringing the church back to the gospel.

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And even in our day and in our time in which we live today, there is a tendency, even for the most faithful of churches, to to tend to stray, to tend to to to just to wander off.

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And so we have the word of God, number one, to keep us in the lines. We have creeds, confessions and catechisms to to help keep us in line.

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And yet there are still such a great number of of professing

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Christians today who will look at these fringe groups, which that's what we're going to be talking about today, which truly is a fringe group.

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They are not Orthodox. They are not mainline. And when we're when we use the

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C word here, we're not throwing it around lightly. We had a pre -conversation and we we all already had an understanding that the word cult is a big word and it's a it can be a devastating it can be a devastating thing and a devastating term.

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But as Christians, we need to be able to make distinctions on what is truly what is truly cultish behavior.

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The guys over at Apologia, of course, Jeremiah and them, they they know all about it. They're so cultish that that is great.

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But as Christians, we need to be able to discern the difference. Spurgeon put it this way.

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It's important not just to know the difference between truth and lies or truth and error, but it's it's important for the

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Christian to be able to understand and know the difference between truth and half truth, because a man will certainly be damned by half truth.

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Yeah, that's just the reality of things. So as we move along here, let's look at just kind of define what we're talking about, about being a cult.

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In the intro, folks heard Hung Yun Sun Moon. I believe that's the country pronunciation of it.

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But they heard him refer to his father claiming to be Lord at the second advent and first king in their movement in their in in this cult is what it is.

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And he professes a lot of things.

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There are some things that we'll talk about that you're going to think this absolutely wacko and out there.

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And there's no way in the world that people follow this kind of stuff. Well, I hate to break it to you, but folks follow this kind of stuff and they need to be warned off of it.

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So first thing here, let's look at this. So a cult, number one, a cult claims to be a part of a religion.

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Yet it denies essential truths of that religion. So in in plain in plain language, just that statement there, a cult claims to be a part of a religion.

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So a cult claims to be Christian in faith, yet it denies essential truths of that religion.

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And that is one of the defining characteristics of a cult. They deny the truths of the religion that which the

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Christian religion is really what everything is rooted in and everything.

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Would you all say would you all agree with that? That really everything tries to come to Christianity and pull bits and pieces for itself?

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Oh, no, absolutely. I mean, I don't know if any of you guys are fans of Keith Green, but in his book,

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No Compromise, he was a contemporary Christian artist back in the 70s and early 80s, worked a lot with Leonard Ravenhill through a church ministry and youth ministry when he was younger.

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In his book, No Compromise, he actually writes and says he became a Christian.

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He was sitting around in the 60s smoking weed with his buddies and he needed a new guru. And he went to Buddha and Buddha said, yeah,

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Jesus is one of the ways and so am I. And he went to Hare Krishna and Hare Krishna said, yeah, Jesus is, you know, one of the ways he looked into, you know,

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Islam and Islam said he was a great prophet. And he goes, then I go to Christ and Christ goes, no, I'm the only way.

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I'm the way, the truth, I'm the way, the truth and the life. No man gets to heaven except for me. So he actually started his journey into salvation with saying, well,

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I'm just going to make Jesus my guru because he's the main one. And then started getting into actually reading the

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Bible and Leonard Ravenhill kind of took him under his wing. And yeah, so everything is rooted in that.

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Almost every major religion has some tinge of Christianity in it or comes back to that.

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And why wouldn't it be if we're good presuppositionalists? Right. Yeah, I was, I was messed by some really bad doctrine for a little while when

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I got into the New Apostolic Reformation stuff. I mean, I was just like, oh man, you know, Bethel, Hillsong and Stephen Furtick, whoever else.

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I mean, I was, I was listening to certain teachers, Todd White mainly and Bill Johnson.

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And I was just, I did not know my Bible, you know, after 20 years of being a

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Christian, I did not actually, actually at that time, I think I was, you know, 30, 38.

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So 36, 37, 38, you know, it was like, I didn't honestly really know my

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Bible. I grew up in the church and I mean, you get, you get masked for some reason by some of these teachings, you know, you grasp onto them and then you realize once you hear a great reformed teacher, that's when you know the true gospel.

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But, but yeah, man, you, I mean, there, these, these, these, I mean, these cults are out there and they will, you know, pull you away from what the true gospel is.

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And they'll have a few things in them that are true or orthodox Christianity, Nicene Christianity, whatever.

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But there will be some fundamental differences, which I think Claude will get into here shortly. Yeah, yeah, and so another quick kind of foundational thing, because we want this to kind of be instructional for the folks who watch it as well.

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We don't want it to just be entertaining. But as far as instructional foundation goes, a good question for us to ask is this, and so many folks will answer this differently and, and, and I'll say it,

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I think they're, they're wrong if they answer it wrong and they're right if they answer it right. So let me ask you all, after making such a statement, how many religions are there?

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Aren't there like 30 ,000 or something like that now? Like, it seems like Dr. White just said this not too long ago on his radio program.

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I'll go with like 30 ,000. I don't know. I mean, defined by dictionary definition of, of, of a belief system.

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There's thousands, right? There's tens of thousands. Do, what do we know to be a true religion?

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Well, there's one now, a lot of people would say that, right? You go to a book back here that says like thousands of them, it explains them all.

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But, but, but a, but a devout Muslim, you sit down with them and say, what is the one true religion?

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They'll agree with me that there's only one religion and there's, they'll say there's this one. So, you know, I kind of lean towards Greg Bonson on this of, and I know you've talked about it too,

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Jason, reading a few of his books of not only knowing what other, what other religions believe, but being able to defend the

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Christian faith. And it goes back to what you said, Claude, is every single religion is rooted in Christianity.

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If you, if you go to a Muslim and you're witnessing to them, they have roots in Christianity. Buddha recognized

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Christ in Eastern mysticism, recognized the Jews of the ancient times,

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Hare Krishna, same thing. So you go through all these different religions and they all come back and they all point towards the

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God of Israel and Christ crucified. So I don't know what answer you're looking for, but I'll, I'll give you two and just cop out technically there's, you know, 25 ,000, but there's actually one.

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I don't even know. I don't know. I'll stick with that. I might get in trouble. Why? What was the right answer?

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So that's your answer. Here's my answer. Uh, if we look at it scripturally, there's two religion, there's a religion of works and a religion of faith.

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The religion of works certainly can be divested into the many thousands of religions.

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The religion of faith can only be divested into one. So there are two in my estimation.

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That's that's because I'm simple and I think it'll, it'll help. So you tricked us. Religion of works and religion of faith, right?

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Works and religion of faith. Only faith in Christ saves us. This is what the scriptures teach us, right?

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You quoted from Ephesians, the, uh, Ephesians chapter two, again, verse eight, uh, most

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Christians should know this for you are saved by grace. Through faith and that not of yourselves.

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It is the gift of God, not of works less than any man should boast.

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So it just in that verse, we have the, the breakdown there works in faith, works in faith, and so, uh, in that being said, let's, let's go into our second part of the definition of what a cult is.

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Uh, a Christian cult will deny one or more of the fundamental truths of Christianity while still claiming to be a

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Christian. Okay. So, and then the last part, we'll go ahead and look at that in a

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Christian context. And this is, and we are preceptor is presuppositional us.

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We hold to a biblical worldview. We believe that we don't lay down the biblical worldview to try to argue or reason with anyone.

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The bib, the Bible is our basis. It's our foundation. Sola scriptura going back to the reformation principle.

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So in the Christian context, the definition of a cult specifically is specifically a religious group that denies one or more fundamentals of biblical truth.

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And the fundamentals of our faith are found in Jesus Christ, right?

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The scripture, the scripture tells us that salvation is buying through Jesus Christ alone.

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The scripture alone tells us what Christ did to pay the price for our sin, that he shed his blood, that the father sent him, that the father wrought it, the son brought it, and the

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Holy spirit wrought it, right? That it's a work of God. Salvation is a work of God through and through.

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And so when we, when we come to this basic understanding, right, it's

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Christ alone. He's the savior. He's the only begotten son of God. Um, that, that he rose from the dead, that he one day is returning and just a,

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I don't know, it's, it's almost a irrational view that what this rod of iron ministries is taking as we get into this there for them concerning them.

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Um, it's a, it's a very irrational view. We mentioned it in, in the pre -show. Um, can, can y 'all talk a little bit about how that rod of iron ministries.

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Um, adopts a post -millennial view, but it's like post -millennial on post -millennial method.

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I promise you. I almost interrupted you and said meth. I don't know why we went there. I actually had a few verses on a post mill, um, for y 'all, if you want to, if you want to dive into some of that, um,

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Psalm 22, 27, um, all the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the

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Lord and all the families of the nations shall worship before you for kingship belongs to the

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Lord and he rules over the nations. Right. Um, uh, then we also have

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Psalm 72, starting in verse eight. May he have dominion from sea to sea and from the river of the ends of the earth.

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May desert tribes bow down before him and his enemies lick the dust. May the kings of Tarshish and of the coastlands render him tribute.

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May the kings of Sheba and Seba bring gifts. May all kings fall down before him.

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All nations serve him. Um, and then, uh, yeah,

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Isaiah two, let's go with Isaiah two verse two. It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the

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Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains and shall be lifted up above the hills and all the nations shall flow to it.

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Right. And many people shall come and say, come, let us go up to the mountain of the

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Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths for out of Zion shall go forth the law and the word of the

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Lord from Jerusalem. I mean, we, uh, you know, with, with, yeah, with, with these verses,

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I mean, you know, knowing, you know, I would not say that I'm an expert in post mill.

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I, I, I would say that I'm post mill, uh, optimistic I'm ill.

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Um, but you know what, I tell you what, the stuff that they were talking about in rod of iron ministries, uh, if you could even call it that, it was very, it was, it was a very, uh, weird way of saying that they were going to make people, you know, come to the

27:31

Lord and bow down. And then they were saying they were, you could see them in those videos too. Um, them, uh, bowing down to their second

27:41

King, I guess you could say, and you guys can go into more of the, more of what this is about, but man, there was some really weird stuff going on within that, uh, worship service, if you can even call it that.

27:54

Yeah. So here's the thing really quick, let me just interject with that because Jason emphasized some points there.

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And I think that's what he was trying to emphasize. Every one of those verses, who are those verses talking about?

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Right. Jesus Christ, Christ, the king, even rod of iron ministries. I'm guessing they get their name from revelation too, right?

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A ruling with a rod of iron, who is, who is speaking there and who are they talking about that's ruling with a rod of iron?

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Is it, uh, the second King? Is it, uh, you know, someone from a cult or from a church?

28:25

No, it's Christ himself. It's Jesus Christ. So, you know, we kind of have a broad definition of cult.

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Like you were talking there, right there in the teaser down below in a Christian context definition called as specifically a religious group that denies one or more of the fundamentals of biblical truth.

28:40

I would add to that though, too, is they also shift who Christ is. They take away the messianic message of Christ, or they add to it.

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And then they also no longer make the Bible inherent or, uh, uh, everything that they need, they always have to add something to it.

28:55

You know, um, like rod, uh, what is it? I'm saying not, not, not, uh, rod of iron.

29:03

I almost said rod of cult, cult of personality ministries. Yeah. They have divine principle, right?

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Which they add to like every cult adds to book of Joseph add to if you're a Mormon. So it's like you take away from the divinity of the messianic message of Christ, and then you add to it and then they make themselves in the seat of Christ.

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We are going to take over the world. We are going to rule and reign. We are going to, we are going to, and it's not

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Christ is going to, we, we just happen to, you know, if you look at your eschatology, we just happen to be there along for it and thank

29:35

God we are, but Christ is ruling and reigning the nations, uh, when you look at correct eschatology.

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So I would say the other definition of that cult is everything that Jason just read is referring to Christ.

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Yet a cult will take it and make it about them. And, you know, whether it's, um, well, it made me think of David Koresh and you know, some of that weirdness that came out of, uh, sure.

29:59

Yeah. And everybody recognizes it now is weirdness and yet they jump right into the next false thing.

30:05

Let's look at this clip right here, because it's going to, uh, it's going to personify and illustrate perfectly what you all just said there.

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I'm now working on a new series. Okay. That which you will see, which will combine the study of the gospel, which is delineated by Jesus Christ, the gospel of the kingdom with how he will rule that kingdom with a rod of iron.

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There you go. He's going to combine the gospel with what he, he believes is the teaching concerning the rod of iron, which leads to guess what?

30:43

Just having a guns, by the way, let's go ahead and, uh, interject this here. Uh, we are not against guns.

30:50

We are pro guns. We've got them hanging in our house.

30:56

We've got them. We've got them in drawers. We've got them cast about here and there in our pocket.

31:04

We we've talked about that. Guys, guys, talk a little bit about that. So folks know where we stand on gun ownership.

31:11

Yeah. I mean, I, I believe in protecting my family for sure. You know, I mean, uh, somebody breaks in my house, they're going to find out why they shouldn't have.

31:20

Um, uh, but you know, I, I tell you what, but, uh, but yeah, I, I, uh,

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I, like Greg said earlier, uh, before we started, I mean, I have nothing wrong with somebody going up in the hills and praising

31:32

God and having a known and some guns, you know, like that's cool, but, but if it gets too weird, maybe you could expound on what you were saying.

31:39

I just saying you can worship Christ. You can't become Christ. Right. That's the problem with cultures.

31:44

It's the mini God. Uh, Christ is not the Messiah, the leader or the, uh, adherence are

31:50

Christ themselves or many gods. And that's where it crosses the line. And you see that happen a lot. Um, but yeah, we're not, we're not anti -gun.

31:57

I didn't take these, these antlers here. Didn't get here with a bow. They got those at a seven 11.

32:04

Yeah. We have to call them antlers before you called them deer horn. I know I called them antlers the other day.

32:13

I got, he smacked me around for that one, but no, there, you know, and you, we can get into that.

32:20

I mean, you can get into the fact that four out of the 10, uh, 10 commandments are about, uh, personal privacy and property rights.

32:25

Um, you can talk about Christ sending out his followers with what, with a weapon of the day that was a personal protection, uh, device, a mini sword.

32:34

So to speak, that could be concealed. We can have that discussion. That's a whole different thing. But I think to talk about cults here and just because they have guns,

32:42

I don't want to malign anyone who owns, who owns guns or uses it to protect their family. Um, but I would say they're incorporating that erroneously into how they're, how, how they're, um, interpreting scripture.

32:54

I mean, those crowns are pretty cool though. I mean, I might get one of them. Bullet crowns. I don't know. It's like a burger

33:02

King. Yeah. So again, so again, burger,

33:09

I know you think, you think we could have thought ahead and our crowns for the right.

33:19

Hey, all you gotta do is go to the burger King. Tell him it's your birthday. They'll give you one. Nevertheless, we digress on that.

33:28

But, but to accentuate and to, uh, to bring to the front again, the scripture that you quoted earlier, uh,

33:35

Jason, there's one man and there's one mediator between man and God, and that is the man

33:42

Christ, Jesus, no other. And what's, what's, what goes on with this cult?

33:50

Uh, what goes on with this rod of iron movement is that number one, they, they, let's, let's get this out to that.

34:01

They, uh, are not just so that we make this distinction here. Uh, the, uh, sanctuary church rod of iron ministries is, um, technically an offshoot of the unification church, which was, um, started by the

34:21

Reverend son, young moon. Uh, you'll many of you, if you're an older folks like us, you recognize that this was a, uh, a cult movement back in the eighties, uh, uh, originated in Korea, uh, as a matter of fact, some of their, um, some of their core.

34:41

Teachings were basically rooted. Number one in sun, young moon being the, the

34:47

Lord, the second advent of the Lord himself. Uh, the sanctuary church, um, rod of iron ministries has basically kind of adopted this it's kind of like making a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy, if you've ever seen the movie multiplicity,

35:06

I suggest that, uh, I suggest that that's a good movie. Uh, I can't remember, is it number four?

35:12

Um, the fourth copy of Michael Keaton gets made and basically, you know, he's, he's a little bit off, he's a little off and that's, uh, and that's kind of what's taken place with this, with this cult movement is that they made a copy of a copy.

35:30

They're claiming, uh, they're claiming their roots in this, but they're also straying from, from the roots of the movement itself.

35:39

So sanctuary church is a separate entity.

35:45

Unification church doesn't claim them. Unification church actually put out a statement. I thought

35:51

I had it screenshot it. I don't, they actually put out a statement saying, you know, they did not agree, uh, with the practices of sanctuary church.

36:01

So there is a distinction. Nevertheless, they're both calls. They're, they're denying each other.

36:08

Yes. Cults that deny each other. Those guys are crazy.

36:20

So, so the, um, uh, uh, young young in moon, which is

36:27

Sean moon, the pastor of sanctuary church, uh, he has basically kind of, uh, uh, adopted this idea of his father being the

36:37

Lord at second advent and he, that he, and he alone is the sole inheritor, another that here we go back to the scripture, right?

36:47

He, that he, and he alone is the sole inheritor of what he, they refer to as true father, right?

36:55

Uh, and by the way, let me read something here while we're at this. Let me find that. Uh, constitution.

37:04

I don't, I'm not able to, uh, put this on the screen, uh, but we will be glad, uh, if necessary to provide links, so on and so forth, but I like for you to listen to this because the whole idea of the movement, as you mentioned, um, post the idea of post -millennialism being kind of part of their ideology on meth, here's what their idea, their idea of the end of the, the, the end game for the movement.

37:31

They have actually written up, uh, what is called the constitute constitution of the

37:36

United States of Chon Il Guk, which, uh, Chon Il Guk, let me just read it so I don't add, add falsity to falsity here.

37:46

It says this Chon Il Guk, the kingdom of God and or heaven, a sovereign and actual nation does not yet exist in this world, but is the long awaited culmination of the end of time as prophesied in the biblical scripture.

38:04

The divine principle in the eight great textbook curriculum revealed by true father

38:12

Christ at his second coming, that's a reference to, um, um, Sun Yung Moon, uh, is the spiritual foundation of this constitution.

38:22

It is upon this foundation of these eternal truths that the future nation of Chon Il Guk will be politically and legally established.

38:32

This constitution is not an ecclesiastical constitution of a church or a religious body, but is a constitution for a real and sovereign future nation being the literal fruit of God's providence.

38:48

All history longs and awaits the future kingdom of God. So before I read the second paragraph, uh, so all history awaits this, what they're referring to as the culmination of the end of time and what does the scripture tell us?

39:08

What is the culmination of the end of time? The culmination of the end of the age or the end of time in general, or the coming of the is coming of actual

39:16

Jesus Christ, right? Yeah, absolutely. That's what we long for. That's what we look for.

39:22

We're not looking for a, uh, that's, that's, that was the issue in the new

39:27

Testament and still the issue today that men and women are looking, they're looking for a political power to come in and the world to be reigned and ruled physically, you know, in economically and politically by some political savior.

39:43

When Jesus Christ is the savior, he is the one that we look for. He is the one that we await.

39:50

Which is a running theme within, um, religious movements that can become cults.

39:56

Once again, not only do their leaders become messianic, but even the adherents can, can then see like they're taking the place of what

40:04

Christ is to accomplish and they kind of take it into their own hands. And we see this all the time though, uh, within Christian walks, uh, we don't wait patiently for the providence of the

40:15

Lord. We don't wait patiently and lean on his understanding. We want to do it ourselves.

40:20

And when you do it in things, maybe on a day to day basis that are, um, you know, minor things, yeah, you can get away with that.

40:27

But when you take major doctrinal, um, uh, orthodox statements and twist them and mangle them so much as to then implement them in those type of doctrinal beliefs, you are now a cult.

40:39

And that is what a rod of iron ministries is doing. Um, I mean, and I don't care if you say, well, we've distanced ourselves from that offshoot.

40:48

His father, um, uh, Reverend moon. And I say, Reverend in air quotes, uh, claimed in 1936 that Christ, you know, it always happens this way too, with cults, right?

40:58

Christ contacted me directly. And I've got a new revised version of what the truth is.

41:04

And it's like, no, that goes back to what I said earlier. Most cults. One of the definitions of that is the

41:10

Bible is no longer sufficient, right? You have to add to it once you no longer believe the

41:15

Bible is sufficient and you add to it, you're into cult territory. And, um, yeah,

41:21

I don't care if they're technically distancing themselves from it or not. That's his father. He calls himself what?

41:27

Father, parent of the, of them. When they say father, parent, they're saying of the entire human race on earth, let's be clear about that.

41:34

Right. Okay. Right. Me and you. Right. There's another, according to him, we should rightly be calling him father, parent and father, mother.

41:40

So yeah. Didn't his, didn't his wife, um, start saying that she was then

41:47

God once he passed. I, I, you guys could correct me if I'm wrong. I heard some weird, yeah.

41:54

Some, I, man, as I was looking into this, there was just some crazy things going on within this, but, uh, yeah, there's actually the, they actually are, um,

42:05

I don't know if demonizing is the right word here, but for the sake of not having a better word, I'll use it. They actually are demonizing what is referred to as, uh, the first mother.

42:16

I don't, I can't remember exactly what all it is, but, um, she basically messed up and that's part of the problem with creation is, is it's her fault.

42:27

Oh, that's what they say. They always, they're blaming the woman. Like a good call blame the woman.

42:36

But, but, but in, so there was, there was, uh, some second lady, uh,

42:41

Han, I can't, I can't remember her, her name right now, but, um, they basically, uh, said that, you know, it had to be, that's part of the problem.

42:51

That's why spiritual wickedness came into the world because the, the, the, the true mother let them down.

42:58

So they have, have adopted at some point in time, some other true mother so that there can be true parents.

43:04

Uh, and so that, uh, we might, you know, continue on. Yeah. That totally sounds biblical.

43:10

Yeah. Yeah. Right. So listen to this, uh, second paragraph of their constitution of the

43:17

United States of Chaniel goop. It is, they say this quote, it is upon the, this future anticipation.

43:26

That I young in moon at Sean moon, the pastor of sanctuary church, the, uh, the leader of iron rod rod of iron ministries.

43:34

He said, it is upon this future anticipation that I hung young moon, the crown successor and representative body of the cosmic true parents of heaven and earth and full inheritor of the kingship of God with all the authority endowed in me by my father.

43:52

Son, young moon, the true father, the, are you ready for this?

43:58

Okay. Messiah Lord at the second advent and hold on to your britches, king of Kings hereby,

44:09

I hereby declare that all people of the kingdom of heaven of John ill gook are the sovereign children of almighty

44:16

God, and here they throw Christ in of Christ who became flesh and gave us immeasurable grace by engrafting us to God's life,

44:25

God's love and God's lineage. This endows all human beings of the kingdom of God with immutable and inalienable rights that originate from their creator,

44:37

God himself through the physical kingship of Christ established at his second coming as the true father, son, young moon.

44:50

Wow. Yeah. If boom, yeah, that doesn't scare you and anyone saying that they're not a cult.

44:56

I mean, once again, we, it sounds like we're just rehashing this, but yeah, that's, that's the point of every cult is to deny the deity of Christ or deny the messianic message of Christ and put themselves in their place.

45:09

And that that's definitely what they're doing. Um, where are they exactly in the United States, Claude? Are they, are they pretty prevalent throughout the

45:16

United States or are they, are they setting up camp anywhere close to you or I, or maybe give the listeners a little bit of that.

45:23

Actually there at Pennsylvania is there is where they're rooted. Okay. Uh, but here in just a, uh, not, not too far, not too far.

45:33

They, and not too far from us. They just bought a big, uh, plot of land. Uh, as a matter of fact, um, let's play, uh, actual.

45:44

Uh, interview from the news, our local news here. Let me find it real quick. Oh, so it's pretty close to you then.

45:52

Oh yeah. Outside of Knox County. It's just a, it's just a short, short way away from us.

45:57

I mean, not far at all. Let me find that interview. Have you ran into talk amongst yourselves while, uh,

46:06

I'll put you all on full screen while I'm looking for it. Man, is Claude going to have to go over there and have a gun?

46:13

I don't know. Sounds like a good witnessing opportunity there, Claude. Just take that shotgun in the back.

46:21

Yeah. Yeah. Take the shotgun and take the Bible and, you know, be all right. I ain't scared.

46:28

Yeah. The good thing is since we're recording, we can edit all this out.

46:35

Let me see if this is the, let me see if this is the one I'm looking for. No, it's not. Yeah.

46:41

There were a couple that you had sent us. I deleted that one.

46:50

Dad, blame it. Um, yeah, anyway, it was the, uh, one of their, uh, talking heads, basically.

47:00

Um, that is one of their talking heads that was interviewed and it, that real, really, there was nothing about Christ in the appeal around here really to a lot of folks is, you know, the second amendment freedom and, and all those things, which of course we're for, uh, but the fact that they are a dangerous call building, uh, building a, uh, another leg on the, uh, or another head for their many headed beast, uh, here, right here in Tennessee and local.

47:36

I mean, they're, they're, they're buying land all around and they're setting up shop and they're doing it by saying, oh, we're a

47:44

Christian organization and we really believe in the second amendment. So folks, you know, just kind of, it just goes over their heads.

47:53

Yeah. Um, so let me ask, go ahead. Go ahead. You, you had this next thing going.

47:59

Go ahead. You go ahead. Oh, I was just going to ask you a question then. It was just a funny, uh, so, so not funny, but, um, so a question.

48:08

So we're, we're both Christians. We're all Christians here, right? We profess

48:13

Christ. We're also Americans. Okay. And I think we know which order we are those, right?

48:20

Um, we believe the word of God to be, uh, sufficient and inherent. Uh, we also believe that the constitution is a very wise document.

48:31

So what do you do in a situation as a Christian and as an American, you might have two different responses.

48:38

What do you do with a cult like this? That does have certain rights under the U S constitution, um, to worship how they want to protect themselves, carry guns, things like that, but also go around calling themselves

48:51

Christianity under the guise of Orthodox Christianity. Is your response the same as a Christian and an

48:57

American, or are they different? Uh, responses under Christian and American.

49:02

What do you think? I would have to say first and foremost, Christ has to be the go -to.

49:10

Christ has to be the lead. Christ has to be the one going out in the front and our faith in Christ has to be the priority.

49:19

We are first Christians. We are, we live in a Christian country, but we must always go back to the fact that it is by the grace of God.

49:31

It, it, everything goes back to the grace of God. It goes back to the foundation of the scriptures themselves.

49:39

It goes back to faith being, uh, in Christ alone and salvation being by grace alone through faith alone, uh, in for one end so that God alone receives the glory and God alone receives the honor.

49:54

Now we, we still very much have to, uh, I mean, even as, even as Christ told his disciples be wise as serpents and harmless as doves,

50:04

I know, I know Sam Storms quoted that the other day on y 'all's episode, but, but we've got, we, we very much do have to do that, but without sacrificing the truth of the scriptures and without sacrificing our stand as Christians, it has to come first in my opinion.

50:24

Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I brought something up a few times, uh, recently just about being in the complaint department, um, of Christianity and, and there's certain times where, man, it's, it, it feels like, you know,

50:38

Greg and I around here, we're just calling out heresy and, you know, calling people out, but it's like at some level you should, you know, you have to, and there has to be a balanced approach of course, always.

50:52

But man, when, when your Lord and savior, Jesus Christ is being, you know, wrapped up into something else that isn't true and you have the verses to prove it.

51:05

And you'd want to pull people out of that, that cult or that crazy teaching that is being taught.

51:13

Right. It's like, man, you have to say something. And it's like, you know, I, I say the complaint department, uh, loosely.

51:20

I mean, I'm not, you know, we're, that's not all we do on this podcast, but you know what, there, there are certain times where you just have to speak in truth.

51:29

You know, in spirit and a truth, you know, where's the spirit of truth? And to clarify that, I don't, I don't think we're complaining.

51:36

No, no, no. And I'm not saying that either. I'm saying, I'm saying, look at, uh, in an earthly situation, if you, if you go around and you, you're lying about my, my earthly father, my dad, right.

51:46

And he's a good guy and you're just making up lies and misleading people. I'm going to have some pushback on that.

51:51

If you blaspheme the name of God, my savior, the one who showed me so much grace, and I know the sinner that I am, and then you're going out there and using his name for whatever cult or whatever teaching or whatever false gospel that you want to promote.

52:04

Yeah. I'm going to get a little upset about that. Don't blaspheme the name of God. I think we're allowed to have anger, right?

52:11

Yeah. Yeah. That's what I just said. I mean, it's, it's very important to me. Oh, yeah. I didn't know if you were taking,

52:17

I was clarifying for anyone. Oh, well, you know, I like to complain. Well, we're not complaining.

52:23

It's it's yeah. Then, like I said, I say it loosely. Yeah. I say it loosely, you know, whenever I say it, but there is a time where you have to speak truth or you have to, you know, call some of these cults out.

52:35

And, you know, I mean, it's like, you know, what are, what are, what are we doing if we sit back and allow people, uh, or, or, or just allow this teaching to out there and not say anything about it biblically that's what the culture wants into it.

52:51

Right. Right. Yeah. I'm just going to do this back and leave me alone, man. Don't offend anyone. Yeah. Don't, don't say anything.

52:57

Let people live how they want. Right. And it's like, well, okay. They're going to hell then. Yeah. Unfortunately. Well, and I hate to,

53:04

I hate to keep going back to the scripture. Not, but the scripture says, the scripture says to him that knows to do good and does it not to him, it is sin.

53:15

So we're, we're going to be guilty of two types of sin sins of commission, the things that we do or the things that we sins of omission, the things that we do not knew that we know to be right.

53:29

That we know to do. Absolutely. Amen. Yep. Yep. So, um, let in, in, uh, just along that line too, guys,

53:38

I know we're at an hour and four, I know y 'all are probably wore out. We'll, we'll close up here pretty soon, but, um, uh, you know, uh, along the lines of what y 'all were talking about in, in, uh,

53:50

Jason, you had mentioned, and, you know, but feels like you're the complaint department or folks think that's the case, right?

53:58

Uh, and to me, that's again, another reason why that's really, uh, throughout the years that has been one of the focuses of, uh, of the gospel ministry.

54:10

I feel like one of the things that I focus in on a lot is teaching people, uh, the difference between truth and lies.

54:18

Right. Showing them what's wrong. It's easy for us just to say what's right. What's right.

54:24

What's right. But we also have to be very much be the bad guy. Right. I don't know which one,

54:30

I don't know which one of you all were, but when I grew up, when my son was growing up, guess who was the bad guy all the time?

54:38

Most of the time. Right. Somebody has got to be the bad guy. But by the grace of God, God gives us wisdom, faith, and strength to stand, to stand in the face of lies.

54:51

Again, going back to the Reformation, that's exactly what they did. Those men and even women throughout church history stood for the truth of the scripture.

55:01

Many times they were killed. Many times they were tortured. We have it in the book of Hebrews, right?

55:07

They were tortured. They were sawn asunder. Oh, that makes me want to be a Christian. Not to a lot of people, but it's the fact and the reality of whom we serve, whom we do it for, and Christ is worthy.

55:24

He is worthy of us to stand. Last of all, let's look at this. So we saw how they are building on a sandy foundation, right?

55:37

Not on a solid foundation. They're claiming to be Christ. They're claiming to bring in the power of God to the world.

55:45

And here is just one last thing that we'll look at that just kind of, it ought to make folks think.

55:53

Listen to the prayer prayed at one of their events here. We are so grateful to be out here in the beautiful nature.

56:02

We are so grateful to have the leadership of our second king. And we are so grateful that you have shown us so much love.

56:10

A day of victory for the rod of iron ministry and the celebration of the publishing of the book.

56:16

We pray these things together and all our family names. I do. I do like the sauce on a

56:26

French dip. A little bit of grape, a French dip with some good sauce.

56:34

Notice it wasn't in Christ's name either. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

56:40

They, as they, and you see how they are kind of been assimilated into this thinking in this ideology, like they are like, they're praying in their name, right?

56:52

Like what can they do? What did, what did God tell Job, you know, in, in the book of Job once, you know,

57:00

Job had all he took from his, from his buddies, Zophar, Bildad and Eliphaz, whatever their names were.

57:07

But, and he began to try to stand up for himself. And the Lord reminded him, where were you when

57:14

I made the earth, right? Were you there when I set the stars in their place?

57:21

Were you there when I formed the mountains? No, that's the, and that gets down to the heart of sin.

57:28

The root of the matter is that the sinful heart of man will always lead him astray.

57:35

The sinful heart of woman will always lead them astray. The sinful heart of the boy and the girl will always lead them astray.

57:44

This is why to wrap it all up right here. This is why Christ alone must be the savior because there is no salvation.

57:56

The scriptures say it. There's no salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.

58:07

Amen. So any final words on the rod of iron ministries? Well, uh,

58:13

I would firstly just say, uh, Claude, thanks so much for, uh, doing this, getting it all set up.

58:19

There was a lot of work that went into this and research. I do appreciate you doing that and including us on this kind of a first ever crossover event with another podcast.

58:28

I really do appreciate that too. I just love the fact that you still hold discernment as a crown jewel.

58:36

And unlike our secular culture take, we take discernment and almost call it vile and we say it's offensive.

58:41

So I would encourage you, brother, uh, keep, keep that about you. Uh, wisdom and discernment, uh, you know, you're going to get called

58:50

Mr. Meany, you're going to get called judgmental. You're going to get called offensive. You're going to say, you're just a mean guy that doesn't like people.

58:57

You're a sexist. You're a misogynist. You're this and that, right? We called all those things. Uh, Christ is going to call you well done, good and faithful servant, because we have to know not what's right from wrong, but what's right from almost right.

59:10

And that's where discernment comes in. And I think that's what this episode was about parsing right from almost right.

59:16

Um, I think we made a very good, and you made a very good researched case of what a cult is, how it differs from Orthodox Christianity, how the leaders are messianic in the adherents take, take on the messianic role.

59:29

And I think this, uh, cult fits all of those things. And I think, especially since it's down in your neck of the woods and this is a national thing there, you know, multiple places in the

59:40

United States, uh, I think people down where you're at to need to be aware of what's going on and I, and I hope they listen to this, uh, podcast and get something from it.

59:49

Yeah. And unfortunately I think that people within the, the Trump, um, uh, uh, what do you call it?

59:58

I mean, just the Trump people, the Trumpsters. I mean, I think that that, yeah, his supporters, possibly some of them might be drawn to something like this because they may be thinking,

01:00:07

Hey, you know, these guys are all about MAGA. They're all about, you know, second, God's gun and freedom, and they, they just look past some of the craziness that they're talking about, you know?

01:00:18

So we just pray that people will hear, you know, this, this podcast and even, you know, others that might be talking about this and just the truth of Christ, um, would reign in, in their life and just, uh, yeah, we just pray for those people, but, and we pray for you too, cause you too

01:00:36

Claude down there, just being around it and hopefully being able to have some conversations with people.

01:00:43

Thank y 'all. Thank y 'all for being on. So which one of you would like to close this out by sharing the gospel?

01:00:51

Gregory. Do you need to arm wrestle for it? Hey, she wants to say,

01:00:57

Oh yeah, we got to get a picture to you. You gotta get a picture. Yeah. Yeah.

01:01:03

Yeah. For, I've been waiting on that for, for those listening, uh, we'll, we'll give you the condensed version here.

01:01:08

But, uh, for those listening who might not know, let, let me tell you something. You're going to read through the Bible and you are going to see that it says you are not good enough, that you're a sinner, that you're a horrible person, that you can't do it on your own, that, uh, there's no way that you can measure up to Christ.

01:01:24

In fact, your righteousness is like dirty menstrual rags in the nostrils of God. If you try to be righteous on your own.

01:01:31

And that is good news because there is one that has come in his name is Christ. And he came as fully

01:01:37

God, fully man. He went to the cross and that wasn't the good part. The good part is then he beat the power of death.

01:01:44

The second Adam is Hebrew says he rose again from the grave. And by that we have imputed righteousness through Christ.

01:01:51

Meaning when we stand before a righteous judge, the, uh, the judge does not see our sin, but he sees the righteousness of Christ and that righteousness of crisis imputed to us.

01:02:03

And that is the good news. That is the gospel. And for anyone listening, either on our podcast, dead men walking or on Claude's podcast here,

01:02:11

I stand theology podcast. If you don't know that truth, I want to encourage you to read the

01:02:17

Bible to talk to a leader or a shepherd, reach out to Claude Jason or myself, if you need to, but please be encouraged that, uh, the gospel is true.

01:02:26

It's real. And it's only by God that we are saved. Amen. Amen, guys.

01:02:34

Thank y 'all so much again for being on here. Hang on just a second. We'll end in the podcast and then we'll, uh, close out.

01:02:50

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