Terrorist Attacks, Brother Wars, Nazi's and Jews with Cory Wing DMW#257

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Terrorist attacks on American soil, the bloated federal government, brother wars, and Nazis. Let's talk about it with Corey Wing from Civically Minded.

Here we go. Exploring theology, doctrine, and all of the fascinating subjects in between, broadcasting from an undisclosed location,

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So we'll ship it right to your door. Now that we got the business out of the way, I had a great discussion with Corey Wing.

He's the host of Civically Minded. He's a teaching elder at a PCA church. And what a great brother in the

Lord. Met him a few years ago. Really got to know him last year at the Fight Left Feast conference. And he talks about all the stuff that I'm interested in anyway.

Theology, culture, doctrine, politics. And we started off talking about the local domestic terrorist attacks that happened in New Orleans and then in Las Vegas.

We got into the bloated federal government and how a limited government works better for the people.

Talked a little politics there. And then towards the end of the episode, which we went an hour and a half, because we are two talkers and we discussed a lot of stuff.

Got into his response on the brother wars. And then also Nazism, the rise of white

Nazism within certain Christian national camps and within the reform community.

I gave, for the first time ever, my kind of thought on what's going on there. So for those of you who've been tweeting me and messaging and texting on our platform here, you can actually click the link below right at the top to send me a text that goes right to my phone.

And I can see what you guys are talking about, asking me, what are your thoughts on that? Decided to address it finally after six months.

So if you want my thoughts on what is going on, that happens at about the, I would say the hour mark of the episode.

And Corey kind of gives his thoughts and his response that got some traction on the brother wars, so to speak.

So all in all, it was a good episode. Very thought provoking. Very informational.

Excuse me. Sorry. I'm on my third recording today, so my voice is starting to go.

But yeah, it was a blessing having Corey on. Love that brother in the Lord. We think probably along the same lines on a lot of stuff.

And it was good just to bounce it off of someone else and hopefully bring you guys some content that you can enjoy too on those issues.

So not going to belabor this too much. Happy new year. We are two weeks into, two episodes into the new year.

2025 is off to a great start with a nice long, meaty hour and a half episode with Corey wing.

And that's who you're going to hear next. Me and Corey. So Corey wing, welcome to the dead men walking podcast. Thank you brother.

I appreciate you having me on. Thank you. I think tech question. Am I the first guest technically of the new year for your show?

We had, well, I prerecorded one. We had Ben Merkel drop on January 1st, but you're the first one that we are physically recording in the new year.

So yes, you can hold that title, my brother. I feel very honored. Thank you. Hey, we got to start the new year off right with some

Corey wing, right? Well, I'm not sure if that's right or wrong, but, but you're starting, that's for sure.

So yeah, Corey wing host of the civically minded podcast. Tell us a little bit about that for the listeners that might not know who you are there.

Sure. So my name is Corey wing. I'm a, I'm a associate pastor in the PCA. I'm a ruling elder heading towards ordination as a teaching elder.

We're God willing by the end of 2025, that's the goals. Finish up my MDiv seminary stuff and go through my ords.

And my older brother, who is a Southern Baptist pastor, laughs at me all the time and said, man, you should have been ordained as a

Baptist years ago. You wouldn't have to go through all the difficulty of being a PCA guy though. This stuff's really hard and he's not wrong, it is.

But I host a podcast called civically minded. I'm really into, you know, current events, politics.

What my tagline is practical theology for everyday life. So I like to take the things that Christians are reading in their scriptures or maybe hearing in sermons at their church and kind of put, you know, hands and feet to it.

How do we, cause I've got a lot of, I'm a kind of a blue collar church in rural North Carolina and I've got a lot of really solid men who over the years have come to me and said, you know,

I'm leading my family in worship and you know, my wife and I read Amos this morning and man,

I don't know how to apply Amos to our lives. You know, so, so it kind of became, it was birthed out of that, you know, out of guys in my own church that I just felt like,

I think I could maybe help you. And then my wife, you know, sat me down one day and said, why don't you start something online?

And I said, well, who would care what I have to say? And she said, well, there's people at our church that seem to, and she said, what about you?

Don't you watch a lot of guys on YouTube and, um, who aren't famous? And I said, yeah, actually most of the channels that I watch are not, you know,

John MacArthur or R .C. Sproul. I mean, I watch those guys too, but she wasn't wrong. Most of the guys that I watch were just guys, you know, and, and some of them pastors, some of them not.

And, and she said, you don't think you could be that for someone else. And I hadn't even thought of that, you know, that just hadn't crossed my mind.

So God bless my wife. Yeah. Wise woman. And, uh, you're not wrong. It's pretty, I'm always,

I'm not surprised, but I absolutely love the way, uh, God Providence works and there's a lot of wise men out there that you can glean things from on the internet being used to glorify

God. So that is awesome. Also, I would say, uh, with all those letters, uh, going to be behind your name, that's keeping with the trend of inviting smarter people than myself on the podcast, which isn't hard to do.

So I love that. And then when you made the Baptist joke, uh, I got to think of our mutual friend, Keith Foskey.

There's a reason why the Presbyterian has the superior theology tag, right? I mean, you got to do a little work there. You want to be a

Presbyterian. That's true. You're in good company. Two Presbyterians talking today. Let's go. Well, and, and I've got a good, um, have you ever been able to, uh, to interact much or meet

Josh Howard from eschatology matters? Uh, yes. Yeah. A few times. Super solid guy.

He's just converted. Um, I say converted whatever the correct word is. He just, uh, came on to the

PCA as a, uh, teaching elder. He just accepted his first teaching elder position at a church in the

PCA. So he just went through his, you know, transition from kind of more Baptistic theology into the

PCA. So I'm, I'm super pumped that we're growing. Yep. Yeah. Getting a one baptism at a time.

That's right. That's right. Yeah. So civically minded. I mean, uh, the wife said, maybe you should sit down, do a podcast.

We're watching people who like you said, don't, don't necessarily have a huge platform or famous, but you guys are growing by leaps and bounds.

I know you had a lot of people down at the fight left feast where we hung out at knew who you were and are listening. So pretty cool that God can use, uh, technology to, uh, glorify him, you know?

Um, so what are some of the things you guys talk about on civically minded? So I, I have kind of a, a signature show that I do that is called the right wing.

My last name of course is wing. So it just kind of, it fit. Um, so, so whenever I do that show, it's called the right wing from civically minded.

It's all politics. So it's kind of, um, you know, just a very political, heavy political forward show.

And of course I really got started. My first show was November 10th of 23.

So really my first full year of course was last year and man was there endless amount of fodder to talk about if you were going to have a political show.

Right. You know, so it was, it was a great year to kind of start a podcast that had a heavy influence from politics.

But, um, the truth of the matter is I've always been into that world. I, I was even as like a high school and even middle school kid,

I was just into us. History was my favorite subject. It was just something that I was really fascinated about.

And so I've always been into that world. And so this was just kind of an extension of, um, a passion anyway.

And then I do, again, a lot of practical theology. I live on a 15 acre farm, I'm raising three kids,

I'm married. So you know, I'll be out, there's a lot of like little shorts and things on my channel where I'll be out feeding our goats or, you know, doing stuff with cows and, and a versal just pop into my head and something that's very applicable to the world that I live in.

And then I think about scripture, especially in the new Testament and you see even Christ himself does so many parables that are kind of toward that agrarian agricultural lifestyle.

Of course, Paul does a lot of sports metaphors as well. So there's just a lot of ways to take very divine and biblical truth and then kind of insulated or wrap it in something that's pretty mundane.

So I, that's a lot of what I try to do. You mentioned Keith and he tries to always, you know, incorporate comedy into what he does and he's very good at it.

I try to incorporate the everyday, you know? So that, that really is what my show is about. No, that's awesome.

And I've spoke about it many times on the podcast about how probably my favorite time a year is when

I'm hunting and I'm forced to sit in that blind for six or eight hours by yourself, no phone, and you're just looking into God's creation.

You know, even Paul talks about being without excuse, you know, even the unbeliever can look to creation and, and see

God's glorious work. And I think there's a reason why the Bible and the parables and, and Proverbs and, and Paul and all these guys use nature and creation to make some analogies for us in the kingdom.

And I can only imagine being on a 15 acre farm. Yeah, you're probably out there. And a lot of scriptures can come to mind, a lot of godly principles, character of God kind of stuff when you're working the ground, you're in nature, you're in his creation.

So that's very cool that you can translate that to a podcast, which I absolutely love.

But talking about, yeah, fodder in 24 or 23 and 24, I mean, it's, it's still going on.

You know, I was the same as you, you know, in I think my senior year of high school,

I did my senior thesis on the buying of Congress. You know, all the other kids were like doing it on Smashing Pumpkins or, you know, whatever their favorite rock band was.

And my teacher went, really? You're going to do it on? And I said, yeah, there's a big problem. There's 1999, you know, it's big problem buying a

Congress. It's only gotten worse. So always been interested in politics. But then I even realized even 10 years ago, had to repent because it was becoming an idol.

I was going through my newsfeed and, you know, hours and hours a day and going, you know,

I'm speaking truth to power. And as long as I'm, you know, saying, you know, this isn't right, then it's okay.

But God really convicted me and said, well, which one are you running to first, your newsfeed or to the word or to prayer time?

So I backed off it a little bit. I still keep my thumb on the pulse of what's going on, but not quite as obsessed as I was before, because, as you know, it can become a never ending rabbit hole of just looking up, studying, replying.

Right. And I really wanted to be focused more on God and his things in the kingdom than what was going on in politics.

Now, with that being said, we should be aware of what's going on, you know. But 2024, geez, even in the last month,

I know we were going to talk. We got all kinds of stuff we could throw around. We've got terrorists, domestic terrorist attacks going on, immigration, the

Trump inauguration. We got stuff in the theology circle with the brother wars and the rise of white

Christian nationalism, I guess you could say. I don't know. Where do you want to start, man? This could go for like four hours.

Yeah, we would have it. And then we could we hadn't even mentioned we did the time when you were on my show. We're both you're still in real estate and I have a 20 year real estate background.

My family's been real estate for three generations, so we can go there. We could let's do it. We can make a day of it.

But are you still active in real estate quickly? I still yeah, I still have an active license in North and South Carolina.

I don't really practice much anymore since I went full time at the church. My wife still is full time.

She gave her a shout out, let the listeners know if they're in North or South Carolina, who they should call. She works for DR Horton.

So if you're looking for a DR Horton home in North Carolina, listen, reach out to us.

Her name is Kristen Wing and we would love to help. My mom is and my brother is still in the business.

So if you reach out to Corey Wing through Civically Minded, I can get you a great realtor in North or South Carolina, anywhere in those two states because we can refer them out.

So thank you. I appreciate that. But yeah, it's it's put bread on our table for many, many years. And God has used it to be a real blessing to us.

Going back to that nature thing just quickly, I said earlier before we hit record that I'm up. We've got a little cabin up in the

Appalachians, up in the Blue Ridge Mountains. So that's one of the things when we come up here that you just I mean, you talk, you can't escape it.

You know, I mean, you you get on the side of one of these mountains and you just can look out as far as the eye can see and you see just the most pristine and beautiful creation.

And you're just reminded that God is so much bigger than all of these. They're not small problems.

I don't want to belittle the loss of now 15 lives in New Orleans and 30 plus injured.

And of course, the Cybertruck incident in Las Vegas and Montenegro's had a mass shooting just today.

And I mean, there's just there's problems everywhere. Right. And I don't want to belittle those. But God is so much bigger than all of that stuff.

And he's he's just he's not turned his back on us. He's not out of control. He's not, you know, somehow twiddling his thumbs or, you know, biting his nails, going, oh, what's going on?

I need to really step into history. Nope. He's never. Scripture is very clear. He will never leave us nor forsake us.

This is all this product of a fall, of course. But one of the things that you also mentioned was, you know, we've had these two attacks in the last couple of days.

There was another shooting up in Brooklyn or the Bronx, and I can't remember which, at Jamaican Nightclub overnight.

And thankfully, no one was killed, but there was a number of folks injured. It seems to be a really turbulent, turbulent time.

And William Wolfe, who you and I both are familiar with and know, he was in the previous

Trump administration. He worked at the State Department and some other things. Really, really brilliant, brilliant young man.

He's now doing a lot through the Forum for Baptist Leadership. And I know that's not the exact right name.

So forgive me, William, if you see this. But he's really involved in trying to rehab the

Southern Baptist Convention, which desperately needs to be done. But he said in a tweet today, if you're a family with small kids, stay out of the big cities, if at all possible, until the inauguration is over.

And I think he's he's probably, sadly, very right. You know, I think it's going to get worse before it gets better.

I think there's a lot of people very upset with how November turned out and they're feeling like they don't have a lot of agency and their voices aren't being heard.

And they're terrified about what another administration from Trump might be like, even though the first one was not nearly as scary as they all would lead you to believe.

And they're lashing out, you know, and that's that's pretty sad. But that's the reality in which we're living.

So I think William's probably on to something, you know, be wise, you know, and just protect yourselves, protect your family.

Well, look, very quickly, I mean, the big cities have set themselves up for this.

I mean, they've become Democratic leftist bastions, gun free zones, resources.

I mean, the people outnumber the resources three, four, five to one at most times.

So if you are also sanctuary cities, you know, so all the immigration. Yeah. Yeah. With no background check and who knows what's coming across the border.

And I would also say, I mean, if you're talking about people who are politically motivated or living in this country that are natural born citizens and doing these types of crimes, who's to blame for that?

I would say you have a mainstream media that has just kind of ginned up this panic and fear.

And it's really sad because then you look at half the country and you go, man, a lot of these people don't think for themselves.

They kind of are spoon fed, whatever agenda the mainstream media gives them. Without Christ, they obviously live in fear and anxiety.

They have no peace, no joy. They can try to mimic it. And I did a piece on that. Why the left always has to steal the fruits of the spirit and try to, you know, preach that to their minions.

Oh, it's a campaign of joy. Oh, love is love. Well, no love and joy and peace, sound mind.

Those all belong to us as believers that Christ has given us through his spirit. So it's one of these things where they're trying to mimic what

Christ gives you, but they're living in anxiety and fear and anxiousness and all these things.

And then you have the mainstream media that just spoon feeds it, like I said. And you get some some people that just break and snap and do horrible, heinous things.

But but with the kind of I'm calling them terrorist attacks at this point, I think someone from the FBI came out and said, oh, no, this isn't a terrorist attack.

But I guess when you have a bomb in your car, you run through people, you got ISIS flag. Maybe we should start labeling it a terrorist attack.

What are your thoughts on those two attacks? You probably know more about it than I do. The the one in in New Orleans, I mean, as soon as I saw it and I one of my crosses that I bear, sadly, is

I don't sleep well. I never really sleep much. I try. I give it a good, good old college effort.

But but I just I always toss and turn. So I was, you know, doom scrolling at five in the morning or whatever.

And of course, that attack took place at like four something in the morning. And. Obviously, it was

New Year's Day by that point, New Year's Eve, so big celebrations, but I mean, let's be honest, it's

New Orleans. It's not uncommon for New Orleans to be, you know, especially down on Bourbon Street to be pretty rock and late into the night.

You know, so immediately that story started coming out. And of course, there was this flag on the back of the truck.

They wrapped that the police wrapped that up in like a almost like a police rain tarp, you know, kind of the type of thing that they would wear almost as a poncho.

You know, they they wrapped all that up and they were very, really dismissive and quiet about any kind of identification for the driver.

And as soon as my wife woke up a number of hours later and she started seeing the news, she asked me very similarly to what you just said.

You know, what do you think about this? And I said, this will end up being, you know, something terroristic as far as this is probably

Islamic related. And I don't use the term radical Islam because that's a that's such a bull crap euphemism.

Islam by nature is radicalized. If you've got Muslims that aren't radical.

Then then you've met people that aren't even that Muslim, to be brutally honest, because the Muslim religion is a religion of radical jihad.

And they constantly want to overthrow other religions and other other nations, and they'll do it by any means necessary.

So I try to call a spade a spade. So I said early on,

I think this will be that the fact that they're guarding both that flag and the identification of the driver means it's probably going to be somewhat of color and it's probably going to be something of terror.

And she said, well, why? And I said, because if it was a white guy with a Trump flag, they'd have already said it.

They'd have said it in the first 10 minutes, because that's seconds that fits their narrative. They want it to be a white guy with a

Trump flag. Right. I mean, so and I know that what I just said is going to be, you know, people can clip that and make me sound like some xenophobic.

I don't care. I mean, that that if you're too blind to see the truth of that, I'll do it.

I'll do it for you. You know, I mean, this thing is bad press. Come on, let's get the civically minded in the top 100.

Let's make you a racist. That's it. You know, I mean, if you're too blind to see the reality of that, then you're you're blind, you know.

And so you go back to kind of what you were saying about the spoon fed stuff from the media. And sadly,

I see this in the church all the time, too, from from well -meaning Christians who are just lazy and they go to their churches, whether they're good, solid churches or sadly, sometimes they're not so good church.

And they just take whatever is said from the pulpit as just gospel.

And scripture even tells us that's a dangerous thing to do. You know, Paul commends the

Bereans for being more noble than those of Thessalonica. And he says what makes them more noble is that they go back and check even what he what

Paul himself would say and check it against scripture and say, is this actually biblical?

Is this actually true? And honestly, more people need to be doing that at church and you need to be doing that in your in your everyday life.

You know, don't just spoon feed, whether it's Newsmax or Fox News or CNN or MSNBC.

I don't care who you watch. Be very conscientious about, you know, cross checking some of that stuff with with now alternative media and just some of your own due diligence, because there's just a lot of gaslighting that has been going on for so long because one of the easiest things to overtake is a dumbed down, lazy and uninformed populace.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's disappointing because. You know, politically speaking, as a limited government constitutionalist that probably has some libertarian leanings, you really want to believe in the populace, you want to believe in the voters and the taxpayers and the constituency, and you really hate the politicians that are apathetic towards voters and kind of use them as they need and, you know, make them malleable to whatever it is they want.

But once you serve or you're even around, let's say, state houses or Washington, D .C.,

you start to realize that you become a little jaded and you go, wow, there's a huge part of the population that is just uneducated in real basic things.

And if you're not careful, you can really start to despise the public. You can start to go, well, they don't know, even know what's best for them, as a parent says to a child.

And it's a really hard balancing act. No, you're good. It's a really hard balancing act for me, too, to make sure you're not saying, well,

I just discount all those people who don't agree with me. But at the same time, sometimes can't even basic common sense stuff.

And they're, you know, they haven't been taught it or brought up that way or our educational, public educational system has failed us.

And you go, man, we could really get into some dangerous parts of here. And I think we are in dangerous parts of the country because the electorate is so uneducated.

I agree. And the only and I say pushback, it's more just kind of a

I think you would agree with me, but some would say in our circles that the public education system has not failed.

It's done exactly what it was designed to do, you know, that that it's it's done everything that it was meant to do, which is to educate a population, a population, pardon me, to be more statist and more trusting of the big brother entity that is has become the federal government.

I know that, again, studying a lot of U .S. history, my wife and I have have talked numerous times about our founding era.

And she's like, you'd have probably been like an anti -federalist, wouldn't you? And I was like, gosh, that's a hard it's

I that's a very hard question. There is there is something very noble and I think very healthy about federalism.

I think the loose collective that was the original colonies was great for a early nation that was still finding its way.

I don't know that that kind of. You know, Greek nation state kind of pattern would really work in a modern context with 50 states and then also other protectorate territories like Guam and Puerto Rico and other things we have really quick for those listening.

Give us like the two sentence definition of federalism and anti -federalism for those that might not know.

Oh, goodness. I don't know that I could do it as well as like, again, William or maybe even yourself.

You serve in government service. Federal federalism was the idea that that there needed to be a kind of federal government that is more centralized and has certain rights and powers.

And then the anti -federalists were the ones that pushed back and said that more states rights were kind of appropriate.

And we needed to keep a check on federal government and any kind of centralized power because the big fear of the anti -federalist was that once we centralized power with a federal government system, it would just continue to balloon.

It would continue to grow. It would continue to kind of become this almost unstoppable behemoth.

And it's easy to now in early 2025, look at that and go. Maybe the anti -federalists weren't so stupid.

No, it's absolutely happened. It's it's politically speaking, probably the reason for 95 percent of our ales right now.

If you if you know this, you look at our states and the way they were set up, our states were set up as little countries.

Our governor is the president. We have a chamber of House and Senate in every state. You have an executive, judicial and legislative.

And the federal government, even for those that were federalists, were very, very limited.

It was like wartime protection. Not not until we got into the mid -1800s were we talking even about commerce and interstate commerce and things like that.

And it was funny because I just we did a live stream together. When was that for Christmas? And I think you were there and William or no, not

William of Davis. Young's came on and said, I would eliminate the Department of Justice. And we all went, what?

And he had a really good point to that, to where states could could control, you know, administering their punishment for crimes and things like that.

You don't need this overreaching federal department. And then when you start looking at Department of Education, right, you've got doubled up departments like CIA, NSA, FBI, ATF, National Intelligence Department, like all these different huge departments that really could either be combined or reduced to 10 percent of what it actually is.

It's pretty crazy how far we've come off of what the founding fathers, even like I said, even the federalists, I think, would if you dropped one of them in twenty twenty five, they might go, well, this isn't what

I imagined. You know, I don't like the fact that when I pay taxes, it goes up to Lansing at my state house for every dollar that I give them.

They give the federal government and then we get ninety two cents back and we're funding the roads in North Dakota and we have horrible roads in Michigan.

You got this weird payer system. And then, of course, for those listening to if they want to know how it works, the federal government hangs it over your head.

Hey, you want your money back that you got from your residents, then you got to do X, Y and Z. This is how they have mandates.

Right. A federal mandate is not a law because the federal government, the executive cannot create laws.

Only Congress can constitutionally. So they come to the states and they go, hey, we do have a law that says you're giving us all your money or most of it through intergovernmental revenue sharing.

We're not going to give it back to you unless you do these mandates in every state. Legislator will tell you, well, that's not the law, but that's the mandate will effectively works as a law when you're strong arming me and essentially extorting us for our tax money to say, oh, you need to implement these

D .I. You need to implement this trans stuff. You need to implement this abortion stuff. You need to implement these things or not giving you back the money that you gave to us.

And that's not the way the country was set up or should ever be ran to where the federal government is doling out money back to the states.

Really, it was for a very limited role, like I was saying, mostly for protection. It was mostly for military.

So the United States could come together as one to protect its borders, which now we don't even know what our borders are, really.

Well, you've got I mean, as far back as like the Barbary pirates, you know, off the coast of Tripoli.

I mean, that's really one of the first instances where. It was it was really the first war that the

Marines were involved in, and and you get to see that the government at that time said, now we are something we are a nation, you know, we we were still so young at that point that it was it was kind of feeling everything out.

What are we going to be? And so that was really the first time that there was a federal presence that said this is a real problem.

And again, people people don't even know what that battle even is or that small. I don't even want to call it a war because we so decisively went over and kicked the crap out of them.

But but there were the Barbary pirates had had kidnapped and then sold into slavery over a million, you know, mostly

Europeans. The word slave actually comes from Slav or Slavic. So it's it's

I always laugh when people act like slavery is some unique American crime that we invented, you know, in the 16 and 17 hundreds.

I think no, no, it's been around much, much longer than that. And the Bible does speak to man stealing.

It was punishable by death, even in the Old Testament. So I hate when people say, well, the Bible is OK with with, you know, that kind of.

No, no, the Bible is not OK with chattel slavery and man stealing. That's that's patently untrue.

But so there is a need for that type of thing. But to go back to what you because I was on that live stream with you guys with Davis and and your story, my wife went back and watched that live stream the next day.

And your story that you shared as a commissioner there in Michigan, of how you guys were on the winning side of this huge deal with,

I think you said it was a pharmaceutical company and just millions and millions of dollars. And she couldn't believe how much the federal government and your state government swooped in and took a huge chunk of this money and just kind of said, well, thanks, you know, and you kind of go, wait, what?

You know, it's it's remarkable, really. And you're talking about those mandates. What our viewers may not know or understand is they can take the shape of even law, not federally necessarily, but they can mandate something like I think about like helmet laws or seatbelt laws, things like that.

You are not given transportation dollars if your state says. We don't have that much traffic, you know, or but the federal government can then step in and say, well, we demand that you have a seatbelt law.

We demand that you have, you know, kids in car seats until they can drive. You know, I mean, it's just and it gets.

And again, both of us coming from the real estate world. I saw it there all the time, especially when I got into new construction.

My wife's been in construction for 20 some years. You get into new construction and they've mandated the construction like these little clips for the roofs.

They've mandated, you know, what size nails you have to use, you know, and how far apart your your lumber has to be.

You know what grade of lumber that you should be? I mean, it's got if the average American had any clue how much government overreach was actually happening in their everyday life that makes every product and service that you buy 10, 20, 25 times more expensive than it should be.

Yeah. Then you'd be furious. You know, I mean, we're starting to see the public wake up to the fact that it's been happening in the medical industry and, you know, pharmaceutical industry for decades.

But that's the tip of the iceberg, guys. It is happening in every single industry in which you participate.

You know, the, you know, big pharma is no worse than big food. You want to get really mad. Again, I come from, you know, an agrarian state.

I'm from Indiana originally. And then I've lived in North Carolina now for almost 30 years. So so two pretty rural states.

I've lived in rural parts of rural states. You want to get angry? Look into Big Agra, you know, and I mean, it's there are just some very duplicitous things that happen.

And it's gotten so out of control that I just saw an ad about a week ago for a new app that will track what

Congress people and senators are doing with their stock options and will buy and sell stock for you based on what

Congress people are doing. Yeah, you get an average of 24 percent return better than any other hedge fund manager just by buying what they buy.

So, I mean, if that doesn't tell you that there's a real problem with just a rapaciousness that that has it only comes from a sin nature, right?

I mean, it's something that just is so grotesque that that, you know,

I thought yesterday when I was watching the news and kind of seeing all of the stuff going on.

And here in North Carolina, we just were told that our governor, outgoing governor, Governor Cooper, just, you know.

Of course, pardon some people and took some people up death row and stuff. North Carolina, even though we do have the death sentence, hasn't executed an inmate since 2002, you know.

And so you kind of begs the question, well, then do we really have? You know, I mean, do we really have the death penalty?

I mean, because there's lots of people sitting on death row. But if we're not ever really going to actually execute them for their crimes, then effectively we don't really have the death penalty.

And when they commute their sentences or they do these things. And all that came to mind yesterday was, you know, when the wicked are in power, the people groan.

You know, I mean, and it's just true. You know, when the wicked are ruling, it is awful for everyone.

You know, there's injustice from the top down. People taking bribes, doing all these things that the Bible says very clearly are not to be done by those in power.

And and it's it it just makes for an absolute mess to live in. Yeah, man, so much to unpack there.

I agree with you on so many things. First thing I would think of is we saw in real time the regulation experiment with Trump in 16, 17 and 18.

In those first two years for every regulation that was put on the board, he took away three in federal regulation.

That word regulation. That's another way to get around legislative law. They'll take an existing law, expand it and make it an executive regulation.

But you saw unheralded economic prosperity in those two years.

You saw crypto and trading and new businesses starting and all these things just in that little sliver of two years of doing something as simply as saying the federal government is going to step back and and basically stay out of your business a little bit less, not even a whole lot less, just a little bit.

And you saw that. And then what did Biden do in the first six months when he got in? He took all those regulations that were basically paused and he re implemented them.

And we went through all kinds of not saying it's directly related inflation. We know printing money, fiat money is horrible process and we're in debt.

And there's a lot of stuff that goes on with inflation. But you could definitely say the first two years of Biden was a complete reversal economically.

Now, I'm not saying economics is the only reason why we vote for president. And I don't say that the president is wholly responsible for the economy.

But there's a the federal government has become so large. And I don't mean to harp on this, but there are so many regulations for business like you were talking about in new construction of real estate to you.

So I totally understand what you're saying. There are things that I talk to builders and they go, I have ways to build houses that are safer, better and way cheaper.

But I can't do it because the federal government has mandated or regulated

X, Y and Z. And then, you know, you have those on the far left, usually, which is crazy because really the liberals in the far left in the 60s and 70s were the anti power guys, the anti government guys.

Now it's flipped. Now they're like, hey, every rule is good. Every regulation is great. What are you going to do? People are going to live in these horribly built houses.

And you go, well, we have this thing called the free market. And it works on just about every product or service to where a true free market that has very little regulation.

I'm not a complete no regulation guy. I think there should be some. You can't go take your waste and dump it in Lake Michigan.

I like swimming in that lake. It's a natural resource. Let's make a law against that. But my point being is is if you take those regulations away and let the free market do the work, the free market works out.

Ninety nine percent of the issues. Now, some will take longer time, bigger projects like houses and maybe cars being built and things like that would work it out.

Same thing with seatbelt laws, right? Don't even get me started on seatbelt laws. I know you mentioned that in Michigan. They sold the seatbelt law to the voters as as essentially we're going to take the revenue from the seatbelts and we're going to basically refund it to the taxpayers.

They did that for one year. And then the next year, they put it right in the general fund, pulled up from all the locals.

The locals only get about 20 percent of that. And then the state gets the rest of it here in Michigan. And you know, that's that law is a complete lie.

Why? Because you put your kids on a school bus, no seatbelt. You put newlyweds in a limousine, no seatbelt. You have people driving around on motorcycles, no seatbelt.

I mean, the ATVs, off -road vehicles list goes on and on. So this whole thing of like, well, it's for the safety of others.

We don't want you to get in a wreck and go through windshield and kill someone. Stop. That's less than one half of one half of one half percent of people to where you are a projectile that harms someone else in a car wreck.

What it is, it's a liberty grab. It's a revenue grab. And it's a way to control the populace.

Like you said, Corey, from the federal government down, because to get your money back, they want to see that checklist.

Is everyone wearing a helmet? Is everyone wearing a seatbelt? Now, look, I choose to wear a seatbelt. My father has fought that personally.

He's probably got 40 seatbelt tickets, dude. And I just go, Dad, just put the seatbelt. He goes, no, it's the principle of the matter.

It's the way that they institute the law. It's my choice. Right. I go, OK, Dad. And he'll gladly pay it.

So maybe that's where I get my little streak of I don't know, rebelliousness as well, too. But I'm agreeing with everything that you're saying.

I know we're harping on the federal government here a lot, but there's a lot to say about it. But, you know, then I also think and there's a question for you,

Corey. How do we respond to that as Christians? We know what Romans 13 says. We know that a proper government that God has instituted brings justice to evildoers and protects the righteous.

What happens when you have a government that doesn't do that? I think, again, and everyone so hamfistedly looks at some of this stuff and says, well, you know, you didn't see the early church overthrowing

Rome. Yeah, you did. Yeah, yeah, actually, you did. By Constantine, you absolutely did.

So once the church had become an institution large enough to to actually have the kind of.

Authority, and I use that word a little differently than maybe people are thinking. I don't mean it in governmental authority.

I mean, because remember the influence to the culture. Yeah, maybe that maybe that's the right word, because you remember

Christ himself said, you know, my my kingdom is not of this world. If it were of this world, my my followers would go pick up swords and, you know, try to defend me.

But where people and again, go back to that, what I said earlier, kind of hamfistedly, even pastors, sadly, try to interpret or exegete that passage so poorly is that when he says it's not of this world, that he meant that it's not part of this world or that it has nothing to do with this world.

And nothing could be further from the truth. He what he's saying is it's not it doesn't operate by the same rules, the same laws.

He's not using the pattern of the world, which is, you know, lost and manipulative.

And again, like you said, power grab or or by war, by swords. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that's right. I mean, what's not. Yeah, right now, if you want to conquer something, you go pick up your swords, your guns, your artillery, and you go conquer another country.

That's not how Christ's kingdom work. Doesn't mean it's not in of the in this world. It just means it's not of that same system.

Yes. Go on. So so you look at those types of things and you say, you know, well.

Did these these 12 men or let's see, let's even say 500, we're told there were roughly 500 people when

Christ ascended back to the father. How did 500 people and I just preached on this a couple of weeks ago,

I was in I was in First John, chapter four about test the spirits and and through how

I was preaching that passage, I actually there's a clip of this on my channel. I said, you know, Rome didn't fear anyone or anything.

Rome was the greatest superpower the world had ever known up to that time. And I would argue and I have argued this with like historians that I know.

That they were probably every bit as powerful, if not more so than the British Empire or even what we are as the

United States, because they didn't have some of the and I'm not saying that the morality that Christendom brought that that the

British and the U .S. government has, again, not brought to bear as much as they should.

We've done a lot of ungodly things, but both of those. Superpowers have, but Rome certainly didn't care.

You know, I mean, Rome would just mow over anyone that got in their way and they they did not care, you know, so they feared no one.

Except this unassuming carpenter from Judea and then all of these equally unassuming people that started following him, you know, so by the time you get to like.

Constantine, certainly, but even before Constantine, you know, you get to and I'm drawing a blank on his name, the guy, he was 80 when they killed him in the

Coliseum. Oh, my goodness. One of the early church fathers and and, you know, they say.

The atheists, because they said that we as Christians were atheists because they had this pantheon of gods, right?

And because we only worship one God, they thought of us as atheists. But that's funny. And so polycarp, old polycarp stands there in in the

Coliseum and he points to the emperor and he says away with the atheists.

And of course, for his trouble, he's executed. But why would an 80 year old polycarp?

What what did they have to feel? What did great Rome have to fear from an 80 year old polycarp?

Because they would go to their death without submission. And because they said there's a king above.

Oh, yep. Yeah, I think it started with I think it started with Peter when he holds up and he said, well, he doesn't hold up.

But there is a there's a coin that Rome used. And I think Joe Boone does a great job explaining this.

But they had an inscription and I'm going to ruin the Latin, but they had an inscription on it that basically said that the

Caesar, the great Caesar, by the name by which you are saved. And Peter standing up and saying, oh, no, that's not the name by which you're saved.

You're saved by the Christ. And I think that really puts, you know, that puts a thorn in the boot of Rome.

They go, hold on, we've got all these different ethnicities, all these different races that we've conquered. Essentially, they allow them.

They go in and mow them down. But then Rome's thing was like, yeah, have your religious things, have your temple, have your synagogue, do your traditions.

But ultimately, Caesar is your God and you do have to submit to us. And they all did. The Jews did. Everyone in that time, they had their little sect of religion, but ultimately they they submitted to Rome.

And then you have these Christians that come out and they go, oh, we can't submit to you. We only submit to Christ. I mean, that's what

Rome was scared of. And that's what we're going through now with, I think, with secularism, with paganism, with politics and the federal government, everything we're talking about.

We have a bunch of people, including Christians that go, yeah, I go to my church. I, you know, I say my prayers,

I, you know, do good works. But ultimately, the government is my God because I have to do what they say. But there's a small group of the remnant of us out there that are going, no, we can't even submit to the civil authority if it rages against God or what the

Bible says. And I think that's what we're finding ourselves in. More of those raising up. Yeah. Yeah, our mutual friend

Gabe Branch, of course, was such a good example of that during the COVID years when when he allowed himself to be arrested just for Psalm singing.

And and I'm grateful to Gabe for his his stalwart courage in that. And, of course, he was vindicated a couple of years after that.

But again, he was only vindicated because the public pressure and even the legal pressure, thankfully, was was placed upon the government, you know, at the time.

But what I'm talking about, like with Rome, none of that was in place. You know, I mean, there was no governmental pressure.

There was no legal pressure. You know, I mean, other than there, thankfully, even

Rome did have a strict legal code. We see this even in scripture when when, you know, Paul says,

I appeal to to Caesar at another time, Paul's beaten. And he then goes and says, wait a second,

I'm a Roman citizen and you beat me without cause. And immediately the governor or the satrap or whatever at the time was like, whoa, wait a second.

He's right. We can't do it. You know, I mean, so even all the way back in Rome, there were certain legal protections. Thank God, because God, again, is the one that oversees government.

He has put those in place, thankfully. But back to your question, which I don't I don't want to feel like I'm skirting.

What do we do as Christians? Is we have to to go to Joe Booth's quote, you know, which is

Kaiser Kyrios, which is Caesar is Lord, you know, and Durbin and Wilson and a lot of those guys use that quote often.

Kaiser Kyrios, Caesar is Lord. And of course, the Christians response would be no.

Yes, yes, Kyrios, you know, which is no. You know, Jesus is Lord. And so there was never a more political statement stated ever in any context than to look right at Roman officials who were telling you, you need to proclaim that Caesar is your

God. And these humble Christians said, I can't and I won't. You know, so so that's how we win the day is we continue to evangelize.

We continue to, you know, I think the word proselytize has gotten a bad rap. I think it's a good word.

We evangelize, we proselytize, we win the lost. That's one of my New Year's resolutions personally, and that's been one of my prayers for the last few months and leading into the new year is,

Lord, give me a burning, burning, burning passion for the lost again. I so often and I see this in the reformed world.

I see it even in broader evangelical Christianity. It's so easy to.

Back on the woke and the and the this and the that, and I'm not saying that that stuff doesn't need to be done, it absolutely.

We need to keep up the pressure and the fight on those fronts. But I think

I have been guilty and I'll just be vulnerable. I have been guilty in the past of.

Overlaying the people that are committing those sins with the sins that that are being committed.

And I have to remember that I think one of the greatest, if not one of the most powerful or maybe the most powerful verse in all of the

Bible is Romans five, eight, you know, that God demonstrated his love for us in that while we were yet sinners,

Christ died for us. You know, he didn't die for us when we were clean. He died for us when we were in the midst of our sin.

And so I have to, especially as a pastor, I have to be mindful of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater and remembering that it is the lost that are the field there.

They're the harvests that we're supposed to be winning. Yeah. How quickly we forget what the Lord has done for us personally and how easy it is to slip into kind of looking at others through the forgiven lens that we've been giving and not remembering what it is that we did.

You know, one of my favorite parables is the parable of the borrower, because it's a daily reminder. There was a there was a lifetime debt that that debtor could not get out of.

And the king relieves him of it. Then he goes, turns around, finds his brother that owes him a couple of bucks and wants to throw him in debtor's prison.

I think we would all do well, which I think this is going to transition well into kind of brother wars and Christian nationalism.

I want to talk to you about for a couple of minutes. We do well to to kind of walk in a little more grace.

Now, that doesn't mean allow sin, endorse sin, right? Because that's another thing. Talking about the lost,

I see I'm going to oversimplify this and people are going to get mad. But this is what I see as someone who is now in the reform, reform,

Presbyterian reform camp and then grew up in nondenominationalism and a little bit of Pentecostalism. It's almost two pendulum swings.

I see over in the kind of evangelical, broader evangelical, Pentecostal, Baptist, light, nondenominational circles, this real heart for the lost stuff.

But it's very emotionally driven. It's loose, weak, shaky theology. Hey, as long as the name of Jesus is said,

I would not really explain what that name of Jesus means. We're going we got to we got to preach Jesus and and get people saved, which seems commendable.

But then the reform guys and the theological guys go, well, wait a minute. What kind of Jesus are you presenting? Right. Which is important.

But then on the reform side and more the Calvinistic and kind of more denominational side, I see a lot of guys that know their theology inside out and backwards.

They've read lots of books. They know all that stuff. They could give you church history, but then they kind of sit on their laurels and they go, well, the

Lord will sort them out. He's sovereign over everything. He's, you know, and there's really no drive for the heart, for the lost, meaning

God does use us in his plan of redemption, albeit, you know, jars of clay.

But I see the pendulum swing that way too far. So then you go, OK, well, I need, you know, the older I get, the older I believe moderation really is next to godliness.

It's not cleanliness. It's moderation and everything in what you eat, what you say, your theology.

Now, when I say moderation, I don't mean a squishy middle when we're talking about, you know, like politics. I'm saying moderation and evenly balanced in all the characters of God in all the things that God is and what he commands us to do.

So it's this really weird thing for me where I see kind of two pendulum swings on either side and you got to go, well,

I've got to really become balanced in, like you were saying, in my approach to the loss, but also standing on firm, sound theology and doctrine that is biblical because it can quickly become something else as soon as you start using

Jesus's name as an incantation. And just as long as the long as the name Jesus is out there, we're

OK. Well, what Jesus are we talking about? Right. What Christ are we talking about? I had another point there, too, but I got rambling.

I forgot. Oh, brother wars and Christian nationalism. When you say to, you know, in the early church talking about, no,

Jesus is Lord to Caesar. How much how is that any different than when

Christian nationalism even two, three years ago started gaining traction of Christians going, well, wait a minute, shouldn't every

Christian go? Yeah, the civil government is put in, instituted by God. But when they do something ungodly, sorry, they're not

Lord. Christ is King. Jesus is Lord. And and I think the governments should submit to that, just like the early

Christians believe the Roman government should submit to that. I would say Christian nationalism in that definition has a lot in common with the early church, wouldn't you say?

I couldn't agree more with that. I think that I think it's very important where we pull

Christian nationalism from. And let me unpack that. I was

I did an episode with Josh Howard and Nathan Anderson. And and we did an episode on eschatology matters.

I'm a contributor for them as well. And so we did an episode there where we were responding to one of our own episodes.

So another one of our contributors had interviewed Steven Wolf, who I think is a good brother.

I really do. I he's another North Carolina guy. I've extended the invitation to him online. And even if you see this, the invitation is still there.

Let's meet up sometime. Let's go for lunch. Let's grab a beer or whatever. I'd love to sit down brother to brother and talk.

Where I think people have problems with Steven and some of the other Christian nationalism factions, and I don't know what other term to use, but that is,

I think their starting point sometimes. Isn't where it should be.

I know with a lot of Steven's work, I've read his book, and I think by and large, his book is extremely well written.

It's extremely helpful. But I think when you start from either a Thomist or certainly an Aristotelian kind of natural law basis and use that again, as you said, kind of an incantation,

I think that's a great word. And you just, you know, you're drilling down and demanding this kind of.

Bizarre fealty to natural laws, if natural law was birthed out of the mud, it just didn't, you know, didn't come from somewhere.

No, we're Christians. We must base everything, our political theory, our ecumenical theory, our very lives must be based on the truth of God's word.

So if you want to say, OK, we're basing it somewhat on natural law or even heavily on natural law, then you must drill down and say, what parts of natural law do we find in scripture?

What parts of Thomism or Aristotelianism do we see in the pages of scripture? Let's drill down back to that so that we have an actual firm foundation on which to stand.

And it's not just this loose quicksand of, well, some really smart guys believe this.

OK, some really smart guys have believed in socialism. Some really smart guys have believed in communism.

You know, I mean, and if you and if you told yourself otherwise, then you're a fool. If you think there weren't smart men in those movements, you're an idiot.

There were brilliant men in some of those movements. So we must drill down always, always, always.

We have to go back to scripture, sola scriptura. The Bible is the only measure for faith and practice.

It just is. You know, I mean, our lives don't even make sense if you remove

God and his word. I am floating plasma and protoplasm.

And the abortionist might as well kill, you know, 70 million more children if God and the

Bible aren't what they say we what they say they are. And certainly what we as Christians say they are. So so I think that's the big for me.

That's the big sticking point. When I see some of the argumentation from Steven and other guys in that camp is,

OK, great. Only referring back to, you know, even the most brilliant of men.

That's not enough. Natural law. That phrase has always confused me a bit, too, just because you say,

OK, natural law, meaning nature's law, meaning nature, meaning who created nature? Well, God did.

So are we talking about God's law that like what are you what are you doing there? You know, we got to we got to start having conversations about transcendent law, you know, even when things are thrown around God's moral law.

Those are important philosophical conversations we have to have, even when what was it years ago, 10 years ago now, when

I read Moral Landscape by who's the atheist? Harris, is it? You know what

I'm talking about? One of the four horsemen, Scott, whatever his name is. Now, not

Scott Harris. It's something something, Harris. And his whole excuse was, well, the moral landscape, you know, we have this morality because it's best for humans in the long run.

And you go, well, why do we have a will to survive? Why is there even any any morality at all?

It's like so simple that it goes over the heads of someone who thinks they are very intelligent and like you said, brilliant.

And they try to argue away a very simple thing of like you can't even answer the question of why.

And I don't know how I got on that with Christian nationalism, but it irritates me to no end when you have a very simple premise and you go, it can be solved pretty simply.

Why do we have objective morality? Probably because there has to be an objective moral lawgiver or creator.

Now we can argue about, is it the Hebrew God? Is it Muslim? God is, you know, whatever.

But they don't even want to say that. You go, well, how can you even be logical in your argumentation? You know, when you're trying to create all these all these excuses for why it's not good to steal a wallet from someone?

I think R .C. Sproul was famous for that. Someone asked him, how do I argue with an atheist about morality? And he says, well, you know, someone they say there is no morality to steal his wallet and see what he thinks.

You know, it's like it's very simple. But well, that goes back to Lewis's mere Christianity. I mean, we're because Lewis, of course, not being an awesome early

Pennsylvanian, and then when he died, Florida and like like R .C. Sproul, you know, being the Brit that he was, he used in his argumentation.

I think it was either in chapter one or chapter two of mere Christianity. He said, that's my bit of orange, you know.

And and that was the same argument, though. You know, if you take a guy's orange and and, you know, when he walks away to the bathroom, he's going to come back and say, but that was my orange.

And you go, well. You know, I mean, yeah, that it breaks down so fast because the lunacy of it on it on the on the surface is just laughable.

So, I mean, you you do have to. And that, again, to go kind of into the CN brother war stuff.

Yeah. And I just want to preface this really quick, because you did a very you did a great video.

And did you include that on one of your podcast episodes, too? The kind of response to the brother war stuff? That was an entire episode.

And it took me days to write that. And I prayed over it. Where can people where can people find that?

Where can they find it? You can find it on my YouTube channel. It's and it's the the thumb mark.

Thumbnail has Tobias on one side, me in the middle and Joe Webber on the other side. So it's it's it's branded as well as I could to kind of be on the topic.

But but and I really tried to not even get into that initial pastor, the pastor argument.

I think I think that should have been kept by closed doors. It still should be worked out. There's there are some

Matthew 18 issues that need to be worked out there. And I didn't get into the racism stuff.

And I was accused by even some commenters on my own channel. Oh, so I guess you don't care about racism. I literally say in the video, racism is an egregious, horrible sin.

But that's a pastor issue as well. If you're a racist, you and you're and you claim to be a

Christian, then you should be in a Bible preaching, Bible believing church. And the elders of your church should be.

Discipling you and if need be, disciplining and correcting you from that racism, it is an egregious sin before God.

Hear me clearly. We we do not as Christians get to be, you know,

Corey Muller. And let me while I'm on that moron, let me quickly. He bears my first name and I'm almost like, man,

I need to change my name because I don't want to be so sure I can't change his name. You know, the fact that we give any airtime to an excommunicated.

You know who that means he's not one. Please read the Bible clearly. Understand what excommunicated excommunication actually is.

It means we're to treat him as an unbeliever and a tax collector. All Corey Muller is supposed to get from us is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

He's not to get our time. We shouldn't have meals with him. He is not a brother. He is a pagan that deserves the gospel of Christ.

And yes, he deserves grace and mercy from God as much as I do or you do. And so it's not mercy for me and not for thee.

No, we're not. Again, we're Christians. We don't play that game. But to to broadcast him or to kind of platform him or to point anyone towards Stone Choir and act like, well, they have some valuable stuff.

No, they have no value for you. Believer, listen, they have no value for you. Steer clear of it.

That they're an excommunicated Christian, in my opinion. And I think this is even I think there's

Bible to back this up. I think they are more dangerous and to be avoided even more than a true pagan who's never come to Christ.

Never. You know, an apostate is worse than than to me, a pagan. Yeah. So, OK, I want to talk about as we wrap this up and we can spend this will be our last subject, but we can spend some time on this if you want, because this is going to be the first time that I've ever talked about this on the podcast, this this kind of brother war or like the whole

Nazi thing of the Jewish thing. And I just kind of want to get your input on what's going on because I have some thoughts myself.

So a lot of people want to link this to Christian nationalism. I think it's kind of a separate thing of this uprising of kind of anti -Semitism,

Jew hatred, Jew blaming within. They're saying the reformed camp or the

Christian national camp. But what I'm seeing is it's a lot of a certain demographic.

First of all, age demographic. I think it's mostly 25, 30 and under.

OK, and I'm seeing that it's it's being fueled by a lot of what is being fueled in the secular world, in the conspiracy kind of thing of a good new version of what reality is.

OK, and what's happened is in the last four years, heck, just a couple of days ago,

I think the federal government released their kind of non apology apology. Yep. Corona virus came from moon hand.

The federal government, you know, did all this stuff that was unscientific, hurt people. Shutdowns didn't work.

Vaccines are hurting people. They submitted everything without an apology. So you have this whole thing of like all these conspiracy theories four or five years ago are now proven true.

Right. We're seeing all these things where you have some of these low level conspiracies going, oh, they actually turned out to be right.

And what you're seeing right now and you tell me what you think about this, because this is my 10 ,000 foot view, because I grew up understanding history, understanding that Israel is a very secular state.

They absolutely are not only secular, but pagan in the fact that they give lip service to a

God, but do not believe or act that way. That that Jewish people in general are overrepresented in places of power.

That's a fact. I'm not saying whether that's good or bad. I'm just saying if you look towards lending, banking, entertainment, politics, if you look at the percentage of people that are

Jewish versus the percentage of those that are in those industries, it is they're overrepresented by all kinds of numbers.

You look at the Talmud and actual Orthodox rabbis and what they think of Christ.

They hate him. OK, they're not friends of Christ. They do not think he's the Messiah. You cannot go to Ben Shapiro.

And when MacArthur asked him, well, who do you think Jesus was? He goes, I think he's a good teacher.

That's not the general. That's that's not the general thought by most Orthodox Jews.

They do have a hatred for Jesus in their text. These are all these are all truths.

But then you couple that with people, a whole generation of people who have never heard or read

Hitler, a speech translated into English. And when you actually hear

Hitler talk and what he's talking about, you go, wow, this is a lot different than what most people have been telling me over the last 50, 60, 70 years.

You can go on YouTube right now and AI translates Hitler's speeches about three months before he died into and it's a

British accent, but it's basically translated with AI into English. And you listen to that and you go outside of all the atrocities that he committed.

If I were just to take this speech and listen to it in this, this is going to get me a lot of oh, my gosh,

I can't believe I'm saying this. It sounds a lot like how Trump talks about immigration, protecting our borders, making sure that the pagans and the and the unbelievers are not infiltrating our country.

Germany first, like we need to protect our local communities, our local governments. And you go, hmm, that's not what

I was told in public school and my whole entire life that Hitler just was this maniac who was unhinged, who hated

Jews. Those might all be true. But there was also a side to where if you look at what people are saying in Germany in the 50s and 60s, after it all went down, they basically went and it started out

Germany first and we need to have a better level of morality. And then it got weird. You know what I mean?

And then it started getting into murdering, you know, millions of Jews, which I absolutely believe happened.

And, you know, I'm going to get heat because I'm not portraying Hitler as this maniac. Now, with all that being said, what

I'm saying is a long explanation. I'm going to get to a question I want to ask you. I'm seeing a younger generation who has been lied to by the secular government, by the mainstream media, about issue after issue after issue is now exploring this post -war consensus and going, wait a minute, we've been lied to on some things about that.

Not saying we're painting Hitler or the Holocaust in any type of good light. I'm saying there was an agenda there of how we need to position

Hitler, Germany and all that. Then they look to the rest of the mainstream media and all the other conspiracies that they've been told.

They go, well, maybe there's something here. And I think it's landed on, well, the the Jewish people are to blame.

I disagree with that. I think that's wrong. Right. We have to balance that with what Christ calls us to and loving our enemies and preaching the gospel to every single person, whether Jewish, pagan,

Ethiopian, African, doesn't matter. So I'm seeing this kind of thing coming together with the young generation of them latching on to this and going, wait a minute, maybe there is some truth here.

Maybe we do need to look at the the leaders within the Jewish faith. We have a hatred towards Christ and all these other things.

And I think that's why it's gaining popularity. I don't know. That was a lot to say. Where do you where do you land on this whole thing of of essentially some pastors kind of embracing this?

Hey, we need to look at this in a different light, like a Joel Webben. I don't think he's an anti -Semite, but I do think he goes, yeah, we need to kind of re reimagine or, you know, reinvestigate what we've been told about certain things in the postwar consensus.

What are your thoughts? I there's a lot of that that I agree with and kind of again, we'll both probably get heat no matter what we say, because this is such a difficult and very emotionally charged topic.

It's very similar to what I said earlier. If you think that some of these men are are just. Categorically stupid, including

Donald Trump, then then you are the one that's an idiot, you know, because you do not get to the level of of success, power, influence that some of these men, yes, even the evil ones have gotten to by being an idiot, that's that's just not how life works.

I'm sorry. You know, you can see that Donald Trump Trump was winning in double

ACP charity awards back in the 80s for how kind and good he was to the black community.

So all of this stuff is just hyperbole. It's gaslighting. It's politics. I agree. He is one of the most brilliant men walking the earth.

And again, when and and I can tell you that because the guy that Newt Gingrich, Newt Gingrich is brilliant.

The man is to get whatever your feelings on Newt Gingrich are. The man's brilliant. And when Newt Gingrich said a few years ago that the smartest man in any given room at when

Donald Trump's in the room is Donald Trump. And that was Newt Gingrich. Newt's not the kind of guy that throws around compliments.

He's just not that guy. You know, so if a man like Newt Gingrich says. Donald Trump's brilliant, then you can take to the bank.

Donald Trump's not not some dummy. And the same could be said of someone like an Adolf Hitler. When you look at nothing happens in a vacuum, that that's one of the greatest lies of the devil is that things just kind of erupt out of the mud like like, you know, evolution would tell you they do.

No, they don't. Things don't happen in a vacuum. So when you look at what led up to World War Two, especially for the

Germans and how Germany had been decimated after World War One. And again, they they, you know, tried to go to war with literally the entire world.

They got their teeth kicked in. So, I mean, you get what's coming to you. You know, you screw around and you find out.

But so so their country was so beleaguered, it was so in shambles after World War One that, again,

I think your correlation is true. Like when a strong man comes into the to the picture and says,

I see where some of the problems are. We haven't focused enough on Germany. If you put me in office,

I'm going to be, you know, for Germany. I'm going to do things that are good for us.

I'm going to rebuild our nation. I'm going to make us strong. He did all those things. I mean, let's be let's be real honest about what did happen.

He did all those things, you know, so for. For many Germans, I could see the appeal now again, that too, because because two things can be true at once.

Yes. And and because human beings are far more complex creatures than we sometimes give up, give ourselves credit for.

He also can be a monster that can be true, too. You know, so so the fact that he did some of these things that were very good for Germany and even probably good for a small pocket of that, you know, kind of German German centric part of Europe.

That wasn't enough. I've said for years and again, I think there's there's history that could back this up. Hitler was was a very dangerous and a very scary man.

I think many of the men surrounding him, though, were far, far scarier. I think, you know,

Himmel and and and, you know, some of his lieutenants and things, some of the guys right in his inner circle

Goebbels, I think they were the real. Pushers behind so much of that, and I'm not saying that Hitler didn't push it, too.

He did. And I mean, please, again, I don't want your viewers or if my viewers watch this, Hitler was a bad guy. He's a bad guy.

He's not a Christian prince. I disagree with all of that wholeheartedly. Yes. You know, but.

There was something really happening in Germany at the time, and I think at first he was responding to it.

Yeah, I my point to it, though, is now. OK, it's kind of this thing like when you have a kid, when you have an immature child and you tell them not to do something, their their natural sinful state wants to go, well, now

I kind of want to do it and see see what that's all about. Whatever you do, don't open that door. Well, you're going to think about as a kid is

I want to open that door. Right. And I'm not this is going to sound condescending to those in the younger generation that is making up this kind of resurgence of, you know, anti -Jew, anti -Semite.

But you basically had the whole world in on a conspiracy, if you will, of just saying

Hitler was horrible. Hitler's a horrible guy. Don't listen to him. Don't read his book. You can't touch it.

You can't look at it. Just know that he's bad. Right. To the fact to where even guys that came in, you know, 20, 30, 40 years ago and would historians that would study

Hitler, you can't sell a book about Hitler. You can't sell you can't sell a book about Hitler unless you say he's the absolute epitome of Satan himself and everything he did was wrong.

You even me saying here, I'm telling you right now, me saying, oh, well, well, he said some things that sounded politically good for Germany.

I'm going to I'm going to be a Nazi sympathizer. No, it's a weird thing where you can make statements and go, we have to we have to nuance these things.

Right. And I'm wondering if you have a younger generation of of believers or even maybe nonbelievers are just in this reformed group or this

Christian nationalist group that go, hold on. I've been lied to about all these other things. And now I've been told for the last 70 years that I can't look at this guy at all and learn more about him.

And then when I learn a few things that don't line up with what the agenda is. Well, now I want to open up that can of worms, dive in.

And now we've created this weird thing where you've got the 20 somethings, the early 30 somethings graphing on to anyone that that seems like they're discovering something new, they're discovering something different.

This postwar consensus we've been lied about, just like the moon and the round earth and the covid and the

Operation Paperclip and all these things. You know what I mean? It's almost I get that kind of feeling from that group that it's almost conspiratorial based and then wanting some new type of knowledge instead of just it necessarily being

I hate this certain race of people because you can do that on its own.

I mean, look at I used to listen to Dennis Dennis Prager years and years ago. And then, you know, started to really realize outside of some conservative political conservative ideals, we don't have a lot in common as an

Orthodox Jew. And he comes on and says, oh, you can use porn as long as it's for variety and not for cheating.

I went, oh, no, I don't. There's nothing I have in common with that as a

Christ follower. Right. And then when I realized, oh, there's a majority of Jewish people in the porn industry,

I can say that fact without saying I hate all Jewish people. In fact, I'm called to love my

Jewish brothers and sisters, whether they're enemies or not, because that's what Christ told me to do.

But it's this weird thing where you can't even make statements about certain things. You know,

I can make a lot of statements about my heritage, about the Irish and about the Dutch in Anglo -Saxons in general, some atrocities that we have done.

But that doesn't mean I'm a white hater or you know what I mean? It's this weird thing where we can't nuance anything.

Well, and you think that age bracket you're talking about. They're 30 and under. They are straight

Christian. And again, let's use quote, quote. I'm not saying some of them aren't Christians. I think a lot of them are, but I think some of them aren't.

You know, so if you're straight, white, Christian and heterosexual, you have been told your entire life, because if you're 30 or under, it literally has been your whole life.

You've been told your whole life that you're the villain of every story ever told.

Yes. You know, so whether you grew up like me, it's kind of a half sports, half geek and every sports person that's that's pushed in front of you is going to be a person of color or if you're.

And then I look at my geeky side and, you know, Marvel and D .C. Marvel was more guilty of it than D .C.

But Marvel, D .C., Star Wars, everyone has has reimagined all of your heroes that used to look like you.

And now, you know, they've got to be, you know, Iron Man is now a black, you know, teenage girl.

And Miss Marvel is a Muslim young girl. And even the Hulk got changed into an

Asian boy. And I mean, it's just they're all going to everyone. If they're going to be the good guy now, they have to be a person of color.

And and and again, I can see if you were a young person that came up in that world where you've become very jaded, you've become very angry.

And again, as you said, because of our sin nature. And that does not go away when you come to Christ. Yes, sanctification starts happening.

Progressive sanctification. Thank God for it. I'm not the man I used to be. But that is a slow, painstaking process.

You know, so for many of these young men, they just haven't lived long enough to really mature in their faith and to mature as men.

And so they're angry, you know. And another one that maybe you haven't seen as much as I have, that I would love into that same weird mix that you threw out there of all these things that they're finding out is new truth is like the polygamy thing

I keep seeing pop up all over X. And, you know, well, there's nothing in the Bible. You're such a bad student of scripture that you don't know the difference between a descriptive passage and a prescriptive passage.

Right. Then Herman, that's right. Then my friend, go, go, go to church, sit underneath your elders.

Yeah, go study the Bible more and introduce yourself to better men than yourself and learn underneath those men.

But the. Really, all of that has its its.

Genesis in old fashioned Gnosticism, you know, just this idea of there's this secret knowledge that we have that you poor schlubs don't.

And, you know, if you were as knowledgeable as us, then maybe you'd come along for the ride. Now, again,

I know we've been going on for a while. So let me let me kind of I will summarize some of what I said in my video that I have on my channel.

And I found on it just just briefly. I think there have been sins. And I do say that word very distinctly, not just missteps.

I think there have been sins that have been committed on both sides of the aisle of this divide.

I think the young men, which, again, I don't know, Joel Webben.

I've met him one time at the Fight Left Feast in Kentucky. I shook his hand and said, hi.

You know, I didn't even have a YouTube channel back then. No one knew who I was. I met you the same year, actually. And so I don't know the man.

He's become the figurehead of his side. So I'll use him as kind of the figurehead for his side. And then I think Tobias has kind of faded from memory already.

So so Wilson or White or whoever is kind of the figurehead of their side. You know, I think the Webben side has forgotten the charge that they have in scripture to be respectful of their elders and of their fathers.

That doesn't mean you have to agree with them all the time. You can disagree with your father, but you also must still respect him and give him the respect he's due as your father.

That's just biblical, period. You may not. I mean, that that all goes back to even the moral law, the

Ten Commandments. I mean, that's as fundamental as the Bible gets. On the other hand, the elder statesmen in this argument have.

Done what, you know, Ephesians six says not to do, which they have riled their sons of the anger, you know, they've been desperate.

That's right. They've been I love James White. I've never met him, had the chance this, you know, at the fight left this year.

He was there. He was just he was a busy guy and he's a popular guy. And I'm nobody. So I get it. Um, you know, but he is his his ministry has been a huge benefit to me and tons of others.

But I can't read a James White tweet these days without seeing an angry elderly man.

You know, I mean, I haven't seen a joyous tweet put out by James in months. And so when you look at scripture that says the joy of the

Lord is our strength. James, my brother, and I mean this, if you ever see this, James, I love you.

You're a gift to the church. My encouragement to you, James, and to all of you elder statesmen, remember that the joy of the

Lord is your strength. It's appropriate for you to fear. Things that you think are going to be toxic to the church and you're not doing wrong by saying we're trying to safeguard the sheep from what, you know, are bad doctrines.

And what I think their big fear is, I think they truly do believe some of these men are wolves where I think there could be a big heaping dose of clarity.

Have the courage to then come out and say that. If you think that some of these men are wolves, then this is a different discussion.

This isn't a brother war anymore. We keep calling it a brother war. What I fear is some of these older men don't really think it's a brother war.

They think some of these men are wolves in sheep's clothing and then have the courage to say it.

I think that would go a long way, you know, and if it's not that, if they really aren't wolves in sheep's clothing and they are sheep, then let's act like sheep talking to sheep and let's be loving and compassionate and patient, kind, as the

Bible tells us to be. But this has gotten so out of control now that what I'm seeing and I'm seeing it on their on their videos, they're all putting out.

And I said, again, this is on both sides, not just the Wilson and whites and not not just the Joel Webben and his side.

It's both of them are doing it. The three and a half hour King's Hall would be a good example of it. And then, you know, white

Wilson responding to that. Now it's gotten so toxic, it's gotten so ugly that now no matter what the other side does, even if it's decent, there's such, you know, just your response that it's kind of, oh, well, you're doing this.

Oh, you're putting on a conference. Oh, you're I mean. I. The most recent one being the

Calvin Robinson thing. Are there major issues with Calvin Robinson that I would disagree with? Oh, yeah.

Huge, huge issues that I would disagree with Calvin on. However, one of his more recent quotes says

Jesus is the only way into salvation. He believes that now he followed it up with, I think, Mary can help you get to her son, which

I disagree with. I think that that's papist Roman silliness and it should be jettisoned.

There's no passage in all of scripture that would make that doctrine come to fruition.

The only thing they could ever twist that out of would be John chapter two, the wedding at Cana, where where Mary has went to her son and said, hey, they're running out of wine.

Can you help? And then he goes to she goes to the servants and says, this is my son, do whatever he tells you. But to build a doctrine off of that verse makes you an idiot.

That that's that there's no doctrine there. That is just right. That's a descriptive passage of scripture telling you what happened.

You know, so so that's there is no other passage they could ever point to that says she's the queen of heaven.

That says, you know, stop it. That's all church tradition. Yeah. Yeah. It's silly. So so I there are things that Calvin and I would highly, sharply disagree on.

But if the man texts out and says, I believe Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation, then broad ecumenicalism in its strictest sense means that.

He believes that Jesus Christ is the way of salvation. I mean, I don't know how else to interpret that.

You know, now, could we have bigger fights beyond that? Of course we can. And I've said tons of stuff today that's going to get me in trouble with your viewers and my viewers.

That's OK. But but but yeah, I think there are real fights to fight.

Well, twenty five to. Settle some of these wars that are happening on the inside.

And fight the real battle that's out there. You know, there is a lost world that still needs to be won for Christ, and that mandate has never been rescinded.

And we need to get back to the business of winning the lost and shepherding the sheep. And, you know, they're spinning their wheels, fighting each other when there's so much better things to do.

You know what? And we'll wrap this up here after this. But I I've always had a thought to that. You've got to realize that there is some type of importance to the generational difference as well to a twenty five year age.

Difference now is much different than a twenty five year age difference. Two hundred years ago. OK, a 40 year old in 1820 and a 65 year old in 1820 was much closer together on generational thinking than a 65 year old in 2025 and a 40 year old.

You've got to realize that that 40 year old, let's say that 35 year old to 60 year old is has lived in a totally different world than that 60 or 65 year old with Internet technology, globalism, federal government stuff, gay stuff, social.

Right. It's it's a different world that they grew up in. And there's this weird thing that I'm seeing.

And you mentioned Kelvin Robinson. And I see him give a glib answer, one line glib answer to James White, who

I love and adore and have had on the podcast many times and have told him he was my gateway into reform theology, many of his books.

But he'll give a glib answer. And it sets James off into a 15 page retort.

And I put out a few weeks ago, there's this there's this thing going on where with the I would say even under 40s, you're on Twitter X and you give give this great retort and you've got scripture references.

They go, yeah, that's too long. I ain't reading all that. And that's their kind of glib answer.

And they go, I believe what I believe. I'm not reading all that. And it gets underneath the skin of and I even hate to use boomer generation because I respect my elders.

I think if there was more of that, we'd be in a different place in this country. Much like Japan respects their elders.

But there's just like glibness that the younger generation is dealing in that the older generation just can't really understand.

And I don't know how old you are, but I'm 43, so I'm kind of in the middle. I'm like an elder millennial borderline

X, like not not a Gen X. But so I grew up drinking out of the hose and no cell phone and playing outside for 10 hours a day.

And video games were just a minor part of the life because they weren't really that big yet. But then got into in high school, being in chat rooms and having a cell phone and the

Internet exploding and all this stuff. So I have a foot in both worlds to where, you know, as someone who's 43, you kind of sit back and you go,

I see kind of both generational sides. I'm caught in between it. I can get down with the streaming and the

Twitter X and the younger. But I'm also I understand the boomer generation and the, you know, going out and no shoveling for five dollars a driveway for the whole weekend just so I could take that money, ride my bike and go do some, you know, some stranger thing stuff, you know what

I mean? Like, so I understand it. But the generational gap is is driving a lot of this as well, too.

And I think it would do well for the older generation to try to understand the younger generation and the younger generation, like you said,

Corey, to not only understand, but respect the older generation and what they've been through and what they've done as well, too.

I absolutely hate people using the word boomer as derogatory. Yeah, even though it's vile, it's disrespectful.

I'll be 47 in March. So I'm a little in the same boat. But you're in the same boat. Yeah, I'm very tail end of Gen X, you know, and my first computer was when

I went off to college, you know, so I mean. I, I totally and I am from rural

Indiana, so I watched Stranger Things and went, wait, that's my life, you know, I mean, other than the

Demi Gordon, you know, I mean, I didn't have that back. You know, I mean, so no, I agree. I think both sides have gotten very reflexively, you know, defensive and it's just, you know, now the cackles are up and it's just kind of, gosh, how do we how do we bring it back in?

You know, and I know it's hard. It's hard to be Christ like on either camp when you're defending your kingdom instead of God's kingdom, whether that be a ministry or kingdom or whether that be a movement or an agenda.

And I'm seeing a lot of that on both sides. It's like we're not defending Christ. We're defending kind of our institution of thought, ministry or agenda on one side or the other.

And that's sad because a lot of the brothers involved in this, I absolutely love and look up to and think they are intelligent and in godly

Christians. I agree. It's been it. I made a video yesterday that was kind of my highs and lows of 2024 is a three minute short.

I love that shorts are now three minutes because I'm long winded. So a three minute short is easier for me than a 60 second one.

But so I made a three minute short as my first video of the year, and it was kind of giving my audience the analytics for my channel for the year, saying thank you for their support and how much they helped me grow.

And and then just some personal highs and lows. And one of the lows

I mentioned was the fall of Stephen Lawson and Tony Evans and other pastors that had big, notable, notable falls last year.

I thought that was awful. And then the brother wars that was on my list of the worst things of 2024 that I personally was somewhat involved in.

And I wasn't involved in the brother wars, thank God, other than I've responded to it. And I know men on both sides.

But no, I think it's been a dark cloud over our world for the last quarter of 2024.

And sadly, it now is moving forward into 2025 with no end in sight. And and I know

John Harris, who, again, I know, you know, John as well. I know John Harris had offered, hey, let's let me mediate.

Let's let's let someone that you both respect, who's kind of not in the world, just broker does.

And again, stop making it for clicks. I mean, I have a channel. You have a channel. I want it to grow. I'm not

I mean, yes, I want to I want to sell my merchandise. Yeah, great. I love all that, too. Turn the flipping

YouTube's off and just get in a room. And even if it's a digital room like this and talk, don't air it, just talk as brothers in Christ and try to get to the end of this for the good of those very men that you're talking about, because the 20 and 30 somethings are seeing men that they respect either fall apart and then they call them boomers or strong man it and be this hyperbolic, just grotesque bravado.

And I'm sorry, that's how I see it. You know, the chest pounding, you know, I'm tough and you're not going to back me down, you old boomers.

Stop it. Yeah, it's kind of kind of showing their immaturity. You know, I mean, it's and I am old enough that I'm older than most of the guys on the younger side of this.

And I'm younger than the guys on the older side. Older side. Yeah. Kind of weird. You're in the middle. And so I tried to as clearly as I can look at both sides with as much clarity and wisdom as I could and just say, where could they both improve?

What if they both maybe got right? Because I think both of them have some valid points. And for goodness sakes, like you said, let's get back to building the kingdom of Christ and forget the the kingdom of, you know, right response or canon plus or apologia or King's Hall.

Who cares in 100 years or less? No one will remember you guys as names. They don't.

It doesn't matter. I said in our in our in our live cast, our live stream that you hosted with Parker. I made that Red Rover joke about, you know, you know, but but the the thing about that joke was.

And I think I said it later in the in the podcast or maybe earlier in that same podcast, you know, that we have the name that is above every name.

Now we have Christ. He is the he's the superstar. He is he's he's the only one in our movement who gets to be the celebrity.

You know, let me die and be forgotten. I want to serve Christ faithfully if it's for another 10 minutes or if it's for another 30 years, you know, at my age, it's probably not going to be much longer than that.

But I mean, as long as I can serve Christ, let me do it faithfully. Let me win as many loss to him as I can.

Let me shepherd as many of the faithful as I can. Do it locally. Do it, you know, through YouTube.

I think I think the Internet has been a gift to the church, you know, much like radio was in our previous 100 years ago.

You know, we should be using the Internet as Christians. The way that Spurgeon and those men were using the radio a hundred years ago to broadcast the truth of God's word to far reaches of the earth that we can't get on a boat or a plane and go to very easily.

So let's forget all the other nonsense and project the name of Christ with with truth and robustness and and let our name die.

Who cares? Yeah. Well said, brother. Well, Corey Wing, civically minded. Thanks so much for coming on the podcast, man.

You got a final word throw out. And we'll link up below, guys, where you can find him. Have a throw out any websites or Twitter X handles or YouTube or anywhere you want them to find you.

Yeah, everything I try to be is one of the things about being older as you learn a little with my age.

So I tried to bring everything to my channel. So everything is civically minded. You can go to civically minded dot com, civically minded on Instagram or Facebook or YouTube or X.

It's all civically minded. But be sure to spell it right. C .I .V. E .C .C.

for Ecclesiology. So civics Ecclesiology family civically minded.

C .I .V. E .C .C. L .Y. civically minded dot com and civically minded on all the different socials.

And this year in twenty twenty five, I will be adding an audio podcast on Spotify and Apple.

I just haven't. We're only two days in, so I haven't got to it yet. But that's that's something that's coming. Awesome.

Well, hey, thanks for taking time out. And you know what? Most of these episodes are about 40, 45 minutes. We went about an hour and a half.

So we're starting out the new year. Right. Thanks for being here, Corey. Thanks, Greg. Appreciate it, buddy. Sorry for taking so much time.

Oh, no, you're good, guys. Remember, as always, you can find out more about us at DMW podcast dot com. Go there and check out the merch.

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