January 4, 2023 Show with Emilio Ramos on “Transhumanism & the Need for an Updated Apologetic”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson,

19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports

legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning

issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener,

with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this fourth day

of January, 2023, our very first live program

of the new year.

And I'm excited to have back on the program a returning guest.

It's been quite a while since he's been on the program.

His name is Emilio Ramos, he's an author, he's the founder of Red Grace Media,

and the teaching pastor of a new church plant in Frisco, Texas called City View Church.

Today we're going to be addressing a very controversial issue, an issue that a lot of our

listeners might not even know how serious an issue this is.

It may seem as if we are discussing urban legends or

conspiracy theories that are out of this planet, but the things that we are going to address today

are really happening, and we are on the brink of some very bizarre things in

our future.

And we're going to be discussing transhumanism and the need for an updated apologetic.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Emilio Ramos.

Hey, it's good to be with you, Chris.

God bless you.

Always great.

It has been a little bit of a time since I've been here, but it's always good to

see you and it's good to talk to you.

Well, I'll let our listeners know about Red Grace Media.

Oh, sure.

Yeah.

Well, Red Grace Media is just an old ministry of mine, really started out as a blog and has now kind of

become a ministry that focuses on media content, filmmaking.

You know, some time ago I made a film called Unpopular with James White and Paul Washer.

I've also kind of partnered with AGTV, which I think you are aware of, but the American

Gospel Films and now AGTV, the live streaming service.

And I've got different media projects on that platform as well.

You know, one of the passions that I have is producing theological content that is also very

cinematic in terms of its quality.

And, you know, I recently did a project with Lane Tipton, The Biblical Theology of the Mountain of God.

People can find that on AGTV as well.

But yeah, so Red Grace is just a great ministry for

media content creation.

And I have lots of stuff coming in the near future here.

Well, if anybody wants more details on Red Grace Media, go to redgracemedia .com,

redgracemedia .com.

And I'm just guessing, but the name Red Grace, does that have anything to do with the blood of Christ?

No, actually, no, it's an abbreviation for Redemptive Grace.

Oh, okay.

Well, that does involve the blood of Christ.

Not the color, not emphasizing the color.

Okay.

Well, that would be a great answer anyway, even if it was.

Yeah.

Yeah, I could go with it.

Well, tell us also about this new church plant, City View Church of

Frisco, Texas.

Well, we're just a small church just starting out.

And I've planted a couple churches in North Texas, in the Fort Worth area and the

Dallas area here.

And City View is now the place where I am

fulfilling my calling, I believe, to be a preacher and expositor and evangelist and

to disciple the body of Christ with the truths of Reformed theology.

But we're a small congregation at this point, and we're just starting out.

We don't have a website, but all of those things will be forthcoming.

And your wife, Trish, she operates a ministry called Fish

with Trish.

Tell us about that.

Oh, does she?

I didn't know that.

She hasn't done anything for Fish with Trish in a while.

Actually, my wife right now has an incredible ministry called Realistinct, and

she's a realtor here in North Dallas.

So if any of your listeners are moving here, make sure to reach out to my wife on Facebook or something.

But my wife's ministry is just evangelistic.

And it's funny because even in real estate, her ministry is so overtly Christian

that people in the real estate world just really don't know what to do with her.

But the Lord is blessing her business, and we really,

really look at it as a ministry because so much ministry has come out of that.

Families, friendships that have been formed, ministries that have happened because of real estate.

It's just kind of wild, but that's what she is really focusing on now.

And of course, with the new church plant, my wife is going to be fully invested in the church as well.

Great.

And if anybody has any questions about transhumanism,

not transgenderism, transhumanism.

Most people, as soon as you get the word started, trans, they're probably automatically,

tragically and horrifically these days, automatically, instantly thinking, oh,

transgenderism, right?

No, transhumanism is what we're talking about today.

Something perhaps equally as sinister.

But if you have any questions about that and the need for an updated apologetic,

according to our guest, Emilia Ramos.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N

-Z -E -N at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence

if you live outside the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal

and private matter.

I'd also like to direct our listeners, after this live show,

if you want to hear a program that we did on Iron Sharp and Zion Radio

five years ago, back in 2017,

we had David Herbert on the program, the author of Becoming God,

Transhumanism and the Quest for Cybernetic Immortality.

And we have not done a follow -up program on that subject since then.

So you might want to just put down in a note somewhere to

look that program up, David Herbert, H -E -R -B -E -R -T, and that interview will come up when you

type that into the search engine.

Well, for the sake of our listeners who are very unfamiliar with this theme, could you please

define transhumanism?

Sure.

Transhumanism in the most basic definition is just augmenting or enhancing

humans with the use of technology.

According to some of the more popular transhumanists that are actually advocates of

transhumanism, they have much more extensive definitions of what transhumanism is,

just in terms that transhumanism is actually a philosophical and intellectual

cultural movement that's directly from the transhumanist reader, Max Moore, and

also, obviously, Natasha Vita -Moore, just for people that know.

Matter of fact, the episode that you referenced that you did some years ago, back then,

you guys did talk about Natasha Vita -Moore.

I remember that.

And of course, the transhumanist reader is where not only her writings are found, but also her

husband, Max Moore.

And there, he talks about transhumanism being exactly that, it is a cultural movement, it is a

philosophical movement about life, and it all focuses on how to

move the current human condition forward through the use of

applied reason, as they would say, but ultimately culminating in available

technology and the technology that we have available to us today, which was not the

technology that was available five years ago or 10 years ago because it's changing so quickly.

But that really is what transhumanism is, a philosophical intellectual movement that seeks to

enhance humans through the use of technology.

That would be, I guess, one way I would define it.

Now, what was the sense of urgency that led you to

really dive into this subject and study it and become more familiar with it

and begin warning about it and teaching about it, and to the point where you wanted to discuss this on my

program today?

Oh, you know, what's funny about that is that I think we all have had a sense of

urgency regarding transhumanism ever since you were exposed to your first sci

-fi movie or even like a horror action film like The Terminator, right?

Going all the way back to the 80s, where you're aware that the potential

is there for some sort of technological monstrosity that gets out of control and seeks to kill us all,

whether it's an artificial robot or Skynet or whatever.

But here recently, I think what led me to a more concentrated focus on

transhumanism is the convergence of not only the explosion of technology,

Chris, but also the emergence of globalism.

We really cannot talk about transhumanism without also talking about globalism and the

implications of an increasing globalist way of thinking and everything from

a socio -economic to an eco -spirituality that is emerging today.

And that this is why in our conversation about this, I talked about the need for a new apologetic

and kind of updating our apologetics.

But once I saw that we are being kind of fast -tracked into a globalist way of

thinking, where everything is reduced to one, and whether it's in the area, again, of

economics or it's in the area of sort of identity politics, everything that we have seen

in terms of the sexuality debates, the gender debates, those kinds of things,

and to know that there is actually a globalist agendas, and that those globalist

agendas rely very heavily on the rolling out of transhumanist technologies

and banking on the fact that we will enhance ourselves through technology

down to the point that we rely on implantable technology for our

commerce, so in our economy and our finances, so maybe getting ahead of ourselves a little bit.

But I think those things coming together increasingly.

And then I would say probably the other thing would be once I identified that many of our

leading global companies, wealthiest, most powerful companies in the world are

heavily invested in transhumanist technology, that also

gave me a reason to pause.

And then I began reading books on it, and now I am immersed, completely immersed in it.

And what is the issue about this

that would, in your opinion, cross the line in the realm

of bioethics from something that is not only

completely acceptable within a Christian world view, a biblical world view,

but something to be celebrated?

You know, there might be things going on that we are not even aware of

where scientists and physicians are coming up with new ways to make

life much more enjoyable and tolerable for quadriplegics, let's say,

or paraplegics, or people with all kinds of disabilities.

And yes, folks, as far as those folks that I know who have

disabilities or handicaps, they don't complain about using those terms at

all.

So for the sake of you who are getting upset that I'm using those descriptions, the people that I know

who have spent their lives in a wheelchair and have other limitations

physically don't mind those labels.

But as far as those kinds of things are concerned, what would you say,

all right, this is wonderful and fine.

I'm excited about this progression and these new developments in science.

But then there's this area where you're saying, wait a minute, that's just way too far.

That violates biblical principles, et cetera.

What are we talking about here as far as the union of technology and the human

body and the human mind?

That's a great question.

That's almost like the million -dollar question there, because it asks the question of

when do we move into the area of concern and where we can actually legitimately

say that biblically something is in conflict, let's say, that we've come to a

point of conflict between the transhumanist worldview and the biblical worldview, let's say.

And there are many factors, actually, that inform the answer to that question, at least for me.

For me, one of those would be the worldview question.

And when you understand that transhumanism is built on a particular worldview, it is not a neutral

enterprise.

It is not a neutral starting point that transhumanism is operating off of.

It is absolutely committed to post -Enlightenment rationalism.

It is absolutely committed to an evolutionary presupposition in the way that you interpret

cosmology.

It is absolutely committed to the idea that is—philosophically speaking,

Chris, it is an anti -fundamentalist movement.

It is a movement that says that there is nothing fundamental in existence, that human nature, for example, and

the essence of humanness is not a fundamental reality, let's say, rooted in the image of God,

but that the image of—that the nature of human beings can actually be changed

and should be.

This is maybe one of the more pertinent issues, is that it's not that it can be.

It's that the transhumanist agenda, or what I call the transhumanist dream,

stipulates that people can not only be enhanced by technology, but there's a moral

component they should be.

And that in the literature, for example, the transhumanist reader, there are scores of

articles written of all the moral supremacy, why it is

superior to augment yourself versus to rely on your old evolution.

And so when you see the evolutionary presuppositions, when you understand the anti -fundamentalist

ideals that fly right in the face of the image of God theology that we believe in, and when

you understand the trajectory that the transhumanist movement is on,

there is a book written by a good Reformed author.

His name is Jacob Schatzer.

He wrote a book called Transhumanism and the Image of God.

Now, one of his central focus is the concept of morphological freedom,

and whether or not morphological freedom is just a fancy term for saying whether or not you have the freedom to change,

and that the transhumanist movement eventually is going to get into the realm of the loss of

morphological freedom.

And this is why I kind of started out by talking about the factor of globalism,

because technology is not necessarily economic, but globalism is.

And so when the global economy is moving in a transhumanist direction, and if you would like to keep

up with the global economy, you're going to have to imbibe transhumanist thought and transhumanist

technology.

And therefore, you will enter into a moment in time where you will be challenged in

terms of your morphological freedom.

My personal conviction is that the next 10 years, probably every Christian family, if not

every family in the world, will have to discuss the decision to get implantable

technology or not.

Now, you're talking about completely healthy people that don't require something to

improve their lives, like the aforementioned quadriplegic, paraplegic,

somebody who has had severe brain damage in an accident, all those kind

of things.

Well, I'll try to explain the hypocrisy of that line of thinking.

The recent announcement and presentation by the company Neuralink, which is

owned by Elon Musk, you may have seen it.

I watched the entire two -hour presentation of what they revealed there in terms of a

viable BMI technology, brain machine interface technology,

where they are proposing to put an

implantable chip or a piece of hardware into your skull

that is connected to the cloud or the Internet, and this thing

will augment you.

And that was presented as an incredible step forward for exactly the type of

physical maladies that you described.

But the hypocrisy in this is that Elon Musk then came forth and said, I

hope that the next time we talk about this, I will be wearing one of these or possessing

one of these computer chips in my own skull.

Now, the last time I checked, Elon Musk is not a quadriplegic.

So why would he be offering up coming out and parading himself on a stage

with a computer chip in his head if he's perfectly healthy?

It's because that's always the plan.

We're not just recent weeks here, both Jeff Bezos

and Bill Gates, some of the wealthiest people on the planet, literally just invested

hundreds of millions of dollars into BMI technology in a company known

as Synchron, a competitor of Neuralink.

You're not spending hundreds of billions, millions of dollars into this technology

all for the purpose of helping people with disabilities.

I promise you that.

And it's not even that's not even the stated goal.

Chris, in the literature, in the articles, in the globalist literature, they are

openly, nakedly, brazenly telling us that the application of this technology has nothing

to do with just helping people with their physical disabilities or neurological disorders.

They want to augment humanity in the preparation for something much, much bigger.

Like a super human race, something like that.

Well, I'll give you an example of a potential.

Um, one of the things is you get invested in researching transhumanism, uh,

globalism, technological singularity, however you would want to phrase that, um, is that you start

researching TED talks.

TED talks is one of the stage, uh, one of the, um, you know, it's one of the places where a lot of these,

uh, sort of cutting edge ideas are presented.

They're presented in a very sort of easy consumable kind of way, non -threatening type

of way.

And these are presentations done by professionals, uh, that are, are wanting to advance an idea or to

promote a technology or something like that.

And sometimes those presentations can be very interesting.

I'd say that most of the time they're interesting, but when I started researching this, you can't imagine

how many presentations have been done on concepts like transhumanism.

And one of the, one of the recent presentations that was done was regarding hive mind technology.

Uh, it's not just helping you again, overcome physical limitations, but the, the

idea that has been advanced by leading transhumanists is that we will then also be

connected to the cloud in some sort of universal cosmic network.

Okay.

And this is how you started your show.

But now by now, if we don't sound sci -fi enough, dystopian enough, I mean, we

do now, right.

But that, that is what is being proposed.

And so, for example, in 2018, um, the, the organization,

uh, known as the world government summit, uh, rolled out an entire

presentation on hive mind technology and how we will all be connected.

This was done in Dubai, uh, uh, and that this technology will,

uh, connect us to one artificially generated avatar.

This is hive like a beehive.

Like a beehive.

Yes, sir.

Hive mind, which means there's a collective mind that we're all connected to one collective central

network, a technological network, a network of data.

Um, and maybe we can get to data ism in a moment, but, uh, you know, this, this, uh, this world

government summit, uh, at the end of their short presentation on this hive mind technology said

8 billion people on the planet are our customer.

So they want everyone connected to the hive mind technology.

Now, how far away is this kind of technology?

I don't think anybody knows for certain, but maybe we can get into some important timestamps regarding

transhumanism.

Well, we're going to go to our first station break right now.

And once again, if you have a question for Emilio Ramos on transhumanism on

bioethics on, uh, in fact, since he is a pastor, if you have a pastoral question,

uh, we would welcome that, but we don't want to take too many questions that are, uh, too

outside of what we are trying to focus on today.

And, uh, our email address again is chris arnzen at gmail .com C H R I S

A R N Z E N at gmail .com.

As always give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence only remain

anonymous.

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We're now back with Emilio Ramos, author and founder of Red Grace Media and the teaching

pastor at a new church plant in Frisco, Texas, City View Church.

We are discussing transhumanism and the need for an updated apologetic.

Our email address is chrisarns and at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state and country of residence.

Before I go to any listener questions, I just wanted to get something clarified from you.

I may have overstepped in my description of today's program by saying to

our listeners that these things are going on.

What I meant by that was that they are being seriously discussed.

They are being financially supported and funded.

But what actually has already been created and has been

established as a bona fide device or any other way

you want to describe it when it comes to the transhumanism worldview,

ideology and efforts that are going on with Elon Musk and others?

Well, there's various technologies that are already in place, that

are already under development.

And then there's kind of more ambitious technologies that are being proposed.

Of course, there are artificial intelligent technologies the

world over at this point.

Artificial intelligence is already, in a sense, a transhumanist

type of technology in the sense that it extends our reach.

It enhances our knowledge.

It enhances our ability to compute at a more astronomical rate than ever before.

It allows us to predict behavior, predict thinking, predict patterns in

human life and society.

And that level of technological sophistication is

all around us.

It's what controls our streetlights.

It is what controls many of our shopping experience online.

It is what Google uses as artificial intelligent algorithms that suggest to you

what you should buy next.

It predicts what you will do as a consumer based on what you've done in the past.

That kind of technology is already full swing.

I mean, we are already entering augmented technology definitely

just in terms of the use of such technologies as a cell phone, a smartwatch, a

Fitbit, as well as smart appliances in our home,

such as a ring doorbell, a smart refrigerator, a smart speaker, and

those kinds of things.

All of these things right now are technologies which in your previous episode on

transhumanism, the gentleman that you had on there did a good job of explaining the

various levels of technology in terms of things that go above the skin versus things that are

aimed to go beneath the skin.

And wearable technology, external technology is something that

is already there.

What the transhumanists want at this point, however, is technology that goes beneath the skin

that enters into our very biology.

I don't know if you heard, but in 2022, December, not December

11th, but not 9 -11, but 9 -12, there was an executive order that was

released by the White House, official executive order by the Biden administration

on bioengineering.

And the opening statement of that executive order stated in no uncertain terms, we

will program human cells the way we program computer software.

Some people that are in the conversation of

bioengineering said that that was the darkest day in the history of America and that we just

don't know it yet.

But these are the kind of ported now technologies that we're looking at.

We're looking at technology that becomes increasingly miniature, technology that

becomes increasingly imperceptible to the human eye.

And of course, leading all the way up to nanotechnology, which is a

technology on the level of a blood cell that is then programmed and

injected.

But where really this is heading is in the direction of intelligence.

It was John Irving Good who said, this super intelligent machine is the last

invention that man need to make.

And of course, because by the time you get to super intelligence, we are no longer programming

the computers to be intelligent.

We are now on the cusp of the kind of intelligence where computers

are programming themselves.

We're not there yet, but we're reaching that tipping point where we're moving away from artificial intelligence

and we're moving to what's known as artificial general intelligence.

And general intelligence is certainly the point of computing intelligence where the

machines are as smart or smarter than human beings.

And so you have transhumanists that are committed to the idea that the

future is actually determined by the machines, not by human beings.

Now, some transhumanists are completely sold on this idea completely

there and they have no reservations about it.

Somebody, a respected scientist, such as Hans Marvich in his book, Mind Children,

has written about the future, the extreme future, we could say, let's say 100, 200 years

from now, where he believes, and he is advancing a proposal

where robotics become the children of our mind and they leave

us behind, as it were, they leave us in the dustbin of history and that we need to embrace,

this is actually what he teaches in his books, or this is what he, these are some of the ideas

that he advances, that we must, like proud parents, that we must

see our robotic children off into the distant future and that we better prepare to

simply admire them as they leave us behind.

I mean, this is, you can't make this up, but these are the kind of books that such

respected transhumanists, no less than Ray Kurzweil, is also

citing from and pulling from and endorsing.

So, I mean, think of that.

I mean, we have some of the leading transhumanist people telling us technology is coming such that humans

will be left behind and that the artificially intelligent machines will lead the future of

the universe.

Now, just again to clarify where, in your opinion, the line is

crossed in the realm of bioethics, Christian bioethics, from something completely

acceptable, if not good and celebratory, to something evil.

Are you speaking specifically and exclusively about these implants that

would be controlling the thoughts

of those involved where involuntary things are happening in their mind

as opposed to something, if they were to develop, just like they have

implants for people who are deaf, and if they were to

develop implants that enable those who have lost the ability or perhaps never had the

ability to speak due to a birth defect, that would enable them to speak

and perhaps enable them to remember things

more perfectly, etc.

Would you be opposed to any of that?

Or is it more in the realm of this this hive mentality where you have

a hierarchy, almost a cultic kind of a system, and when I say cultic,

even those that deny the existence of God really embrace their religion, whether they

admit that or not or whether they acknowledge that or not, but where you have somebody

controlling the thought of those involved in this.

So, is there a difference, in your opinion, between those things that I've said?

Yeah, no.

I think this is why Jacob Schatzer focuses so much on morphological freedom, because what he's saying is

basically that we can get to a place where we no longer have control over our own bodies

and we can't make the decision anymore to be changed, that the way of the future is that there's

going to be a mandatory change if you would like to keep up with what

is current in the socioeconomic makeup of the world.

So, at what point is that going to happen?

What is that going to look like?

Well, I would say, to some degree, we already have that happening through algorithms.

You don't have control, in a sense.

You don't have control as to whether or not you can operate in modern society apart

from technology.

You can't.

Is there really a business that can survive without a cell phone, without a laptop, without a computer,

without a Wi -Fi connection, without Bluetooth technology, without social media, without

an algorithm to help you advertise your business on the latest social

media platform, et cetera?

Furthermore, we are now entering the time, Chris, where

maybe some language here I need to introduce that I've kind of created in order

to try to capture, I think, what's happening.

And that is that we're moving from PR to VR at the moment, physical reality

to virtual reality.

But at present, we are actually seeing a trend more towards VR to PR in that

virtual reality will begin to dictate physical reality.

That's happening.

I'll give you one example, okay?

And that is in a YouTube series that was done by

Iron Man.

Oh, what's his name?

Robert Downey Jr.

I thought I was Iron Man.

Oh, you are an Iron Man.

Let me tell you, you're the Iron Man of podcasting.

That's for sure.

But Iron Man does a whole series on the age of AI.

And he talks about how that in Hollywood, which, of course, that's his guild.

So he talks about in Hollywood that there's an artificial algorithm, there's a software where they

feed a machine thousands of movie scripts.

The machine then comes up with its own artificial script.

And that movie script comes out of a software not generated by

humans directly.

And then they take the script in Hollywood studios, this is actually happening, where they

then play out, act out, and film whatever the software is

scripting.

And in the presentation, Robert Downey Jr. says that

the artificial intelligent machine is telling society in this particular script

that society is too masculine.

And he makes a comment.

Imagine that, that AI tells us how to be better

ourselves.

I mean, this is what I'm talking about in terms of VR is dictating PR.

The physical world now is following the AI aesthetic.

It's really mind -blowing.

And was Robert Downey Jr. in agreement with this mindset?

It wouldn't be shocking.

Obviously, he's, as far as I know, an unregenerate Hollywood actor,

although I do think he's a brilliant actor.

I love most of his movies.

Yeah, no, he was enthusiastic.

I mean, it's a very well done series.

People can watch it.

There's about six episodes.

It was a few years ago, but it's still very good.

It does also show the limitations of technology and where we really are.

For example, in self -driving vehicles, we are not there yet.

We have not yet achieved the kind of technology where self

-driving vehicles are viable at the moment.

We cannot unleash self -driving vehicles on society.

There might be limited expressions of that and limited iterations of that here and there, but we're

not yet at the place where we can go completely autonomous in terms of our vehicles.

Notice that that is the trajectory, and this brings up another notion, Chris, that I don't know if we're going to have time to

explore, but that brings up the whole notion of post -humanism.

Transhumanism, in my opinion, is a stepping stone for the

more radical post -humanist worldview, whereas

transhumanism is technology that changes us or augments us.

Post -humanism is the technology that replaces us.

Now, just to clarify, would you be opposed to self -operating automobiles

if the technology becomes so advanced that they're completely safe, at least most

of the time?

I mean, we don't want to become the Amish of the future and lead our lives

according to superstitions where we reject advances in technology

for reasons that are unbiblical.

Right.

There's a lady by the name of Amy Webb.

She is an NYU professor, a liberal

journalist as well, but she's written a book called The Big Nine, and in this book,

she explains the leading companies of the world, the big nine companies of the world that

control pretty much everything in terms of commerce and

stuff, or at least lead the way.

Can you pick up on the big nine when we return from our midway break?

Oh, sure.

We have to go into our midway break right now, folks, and please be patient with us.

It's the longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer

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While they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

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It's such a blessing to

hear.

From Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners.

From all over the world.

Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show

he really loves hearing interviewed, Dr. Joe Moorcraft.

I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe

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If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming,

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

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Before I return to Amelia Ramos, our guest today, I have some very important announcements to make.

First of all, if you love this show, you don't want it to disappear, please, I urge you to go to

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Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, doctrinally sound,

theologically solid church like City View Church of Frisco, Texas, no matter where you live on the planet Earth,

I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches, and I've helped many people in our

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Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.

That's also the email address where you can send in questions to Amelia Ramos on transhumanism

and the need for an updated apologetic.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Before I go to any of our listener questions, we do have a number of people waiting to

have their questions asked and answered.

But right before the break, you were talking about the big nine corporations, I believe

they were, that an author lists who are, if I'm not mistaken, financially

supporting and funding this whole transhumanism effort.

Uh, yeah, Chris, I made reference to Amy Webb, a professor out of NYU.

I think I described her as a journalist, but she's more of a, she's more of a kind of a, of a leading

thinker in the area of just forecasting and strategizing economics and

stuff like that.

But she's also at Harvard.

But, you know, what she did in her book, The Big Nine, in focusing on the big nine tech

companies, or as she calls them, tech titans, uh, is again to

advance this notion of post -humanism.

Now, she didn't actually claim to make, uh, to claim to make that argument,

uh, so much.

But what she did show is that through the present course and the utilization

of their algorithms and in the manner in which these big companies,

I mean, think of these companies, Chris, Apple, Google, you're talking about Tencent in

China, Microsoft, IBM.

These are massive.

They are tech titans.

And what they do through the use of certain technologies, especially

artificial intelligence, according to her, they have the potential to relegate us

into a digital caste system of the haves and have nots.

And this is why again, coming back to this issue of globalism, why it is so

important for us to understand not just a computer chip going into your hand, okay,

not, not just visions of the mark of the beast.

Okay.

But to really, really, truly understand that what we're facing is a globalist movement that is

undergirding a technological revolution, an explosion, exponential

explosion in technology and what the world leaders will do with it.

And I'm simply calling for a new apologetic in this sense, that even as you mentioned

in your announcements and talking about COVID, I personally operate now

on the conviction, Chris, that we've entered into a new stage of humanity, that the world

is not the same as it was before COVID and that technology is actually

changing the world even further, changing the way that people think.

People are becoming more globalist in their thinking.

People are becoming more Marxist.

People are becoming more pagan and pluralistic in their thought.

And my sense is that if Christians think that we will continue to go

down the path of kingdom of the cults and an old Walter Martin path of apologetics,

if you think the future of Christian apologetics has to do with debating Greek fragments

of the New Testament, I believe that we will be unequipped and ill

-prepared to answer the futurist, globalist, transhumanist, and then later

post -humanist challenge.

This is why I talked about transhumanism as a lead up or leading to more

post -humanist ideas.

Under post -humanism, humans are replaced.

And this is happening in the realm of automation.

This is happening in the realm of robotics.

And this is happening in the realm of AI computing.

Recently here, there was the emergence of a terrifying technology, chat

GPT, which is a, again, an artificially intelligent algorithm that

operates on language learning.

And this artificial intelligence is terrifying people, because of course,

what it purports to do is to be able to replace humans at all sorts of different levels of

creativity, including art, music, writing, you know, these kinds of things.

You know, you're not going to need artists in the future.

You're not going to need architects in the future.

You're not going to need musicians in the future.

You're not going to need composers in the future.

When we have the kind of algorithm that can replace us and do it better than us on multiple

levels.

And so that that's something that we really need to consider.

I look forward to the day when we no longer need politicians, however.

Yeah, let's start there.

Yeah, we have an anonymous listener who asks a very good question.

The anonymous listener says, I know that your guest is reformed, but I don't know where he

stands in regard to eschatology.

The reason I ask this is that for decades, amillennial and postmillennial

reformed Christians have been mocking pre -tribulational dispensationalists in

regard to the bizarre allegories they have come up with in regard to

things that we are supposed to be awaiting and be warned about in our future.

Much of what you are discussing seems to go hand in hand with all the discussions of

666 being implanted in our skin and other things like that.

Has this discussion and investigation of the

transhumanism ideology got you to rethink any of your own personal

views against dispensational allegories?

I think there's several factors there.

I think we need to separate dispensationalism from premillennialism

or futuristic interpretations of eschatology.

I am amillennial.

I'm committed to the amillennial eschatological scheme in the tradition, let's say, of Hermann

Bavink, of Gerhardus Voss, of Van Til, of Meredith

Klein, and today leading thinkers in eschatology like G .K. Beale.

Nothing that I'm talking about here today is in conflict, I believe, with biblical eschatology.

And I guess in order to show my eschatological cards, in a sense, I do interpret

Revelation 17 and 18, for example, as futuristic.

I do not believe that Revelation's Babylon is a past phenomenon.

I do think it is the culmination of a very deep biblical theology,

and I don't know if your listeners know what I mean by that, but the development of an organic motif

and the unfolding of the theology of the Bible, redemptive historically,

that begins in such things as the Tower of Babel, later the Babylonian captivity, and then, of

course, culminating in the future apocalyptic visions of John, where those themes, ideas, and

even intertextuality, culminate in the last day or the

end time Babel or Babylon system, which I think leads up to the parousia,

the second coming of Jesus.

And so I do believe in things such as a future antichrist, a

future tribulation, a future administration, some future realization of the mark of

the beast, though not necessarily in the most literalistic terms.

So I think that is a very important idea to grapple with.

I don't have an optimistic view of post -millennialism, let's say.

I don't believe society will get better and better, better, better.

That doesn't mean I don't believe the kingdom is growing and expanding and God is saving his elect.

He certainly is.

But I also don't share, let's say, the specificities of classic dispensationalism and pre

-tribulational rapture theories.

I disagree with pre -trib theology.

So that's where I would be.

Just so I could put my two cents in, even though I am an amillennialist, I have interviewed

enough post -millennialists and theonomists to know that most of them do not believe

that things will only progressively get better.

There are those that think we could be plunged into even centuries of darkness like the

world has never known before before things ultimately get better.

So, I mean, some of the things that you're talking about could, I think, just as well be

handled properly by a post -millennialist who warns against these things and has

a frightening view of our immediate future.

Not an ultimate future being, you know, sinister and so on,

but as far as an immediate future goes.

I mean, do you understand where I'm coming from on that?

Maybe a debate for a different time.

Remember, I am amillennialist.

I am amillennialist.

Yeah, because though I understand, I certainly don't agree.

We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

And Ronald says, most of us who are

baseball fans have heard about Ted Williams' family after he

died, had his brain frozen at a cryonics lab

in hopes that there would be a future where he would be able to live and think

again.

Is this a part of what you are talking about?

Uh, maybe.

But I think the greater idea here is that transhumanism

is advancing the notion of what they call radical life extension.

And that typically has to do with nanotechnology and

the ability to create a kind of technology that targets diseases, regenerates cells,

those kinds of things, all the way leading up to artificial body parts, mapping out the human brain.

And so in terms of bringing people back from some kind of cryotube, you

know, I don't see a lot of that in the literature.

But I think what I see in the literature is people following Ray Kurzweil, mainly Ray Kurzweil,

and his idea that if you can live long enough where we get minimal life

extension technology, then that can actually allow you to live long enough, let's

say to the middle of the century, 2045 or 2050, where then the

radical life extension technology will be available.

And so that no one really needs to ever go into a cryotube.

You can just depend on the nanotechnology to get you to that radical life extension.

I will differ a little bit with the episode that you had previously in the notion

of Homo Deus, which is the title you've all know, Harari's book on

globalism and transhumanism.

There are no actual claims to deity on the part of transhumanists that they will

be gods.

And I don't think your guest really believes that or claimed that, but that they will be godlike.

And so that is what the radical life extension technology is really talking about is that

these are godlike abilities and that we will enhance our intelligence and radically

extend our life expectancy.

Ray Kurzweil saying that basically in 100 years from now, in 100

years from now, life expectancy will no longer be a viable term.

In other words, that people it's perceived will be able to continue to live for eternity.

That people will live hundreds of years and that in living hundreds of years,

we don't really walk around talking about life expectancy anymore, because by then, again,

future technologies will be so radical, OK, that

perhaps what we think about in terms of living for 500 years will pale in

comparison to how long we can live when those hundreds of years come about.

Let me just be very clear about something, Chris, though.

I don't personally believe that post -humanism of any kind will be achievable, not at the

genetic level.

I don't think that guys like Damien Broderick,

who define post -humanism as people that will have

unprecedented physical and let's say

intellectual and psychological abilities and that will

potentially achieve a sense of immortality.

I don't believe so I think it's important from the Christian worldview, not the claims of the transhumanist,

but from the Christian worldview, we do not believe that post -humanism is achievable, obviously.

And so I think we need to make that very clear.

But transhumanism at certain points certainly is.

Implantable technology is right around the corner.

And post -humanist ideas such as

replacing the workforce, for example.

Ray Kurzweil in a section of his book, Spiritual Machines, has a section in where

a fictitious dialogue happens with his future self.

Where he talks about in the future that your children

or that his child in the future is basically being raised by an artificially

intelligent nanny bot and that it's better than the human mother

because it can do everything much better and the baby likes it better than a real mother.

And this has created in the futurist literature the idea of what they

call real reality.

And that virtual reality or in a sense, right?

Synthetic reality or robotic reality or nano reality will be better than real

reality.

So Ray Kurzweil speaks about the future consisting of kind of an

ectoskeleton bodysuit where you enter not only in virtual worlds, but

it will enable you to sense everything as more real than the real

world.

Everything from sexuality to emotion and everything

like that.

So these are some of the concepts that kind of come about.

We have an anonymous listener who says I'm remaining anonymous because I am constantly battling with

my unsaved family over the evils of the transgender movement.

But I was wondering if the transgender movement is a part of this transhumanist

movement where they envision men can actually become

childbearing females and that women can actually become biological men.

Yes, I actually do believe that

the transgender phenomenon that we're watching today is something of a conditioning

of society.

And so here we get, you know, if I guess I'm going to be accused of anything conspiratorial,

there's certainly an agenda.

But honestly, I say that on the basis of facts, where, of course, what worldview

is, what is the prevailing worldview in the transhumanist literature?

Well, they're not talking about Judeo -Christian values and Judeo -Christian sexuality and biblical sexuality.

They are talking about sexuality basically being up for grabs.

Ray Kurzweil himself in his books envisions a time where through

nanotechnology and nanobot swarm technology, basically enough

robotic technology within your bloodstream and in your body to be able to essentially

shift into whatever mode of being you would like, including becoming androgynous

and going between male and female.

And so, yes, I think the transgender agenda is part

of the ultimate transhumanist and globalist dream.

And of course, I'm assuming from what you said earlier, this is another part of the dream that can

never possibly be realized and come to fruition.

Correct.

I do believe that is accurate.

OK, by the way, Anonymous, if you are a first -time questioner, let us know because

all of our first -time questioners in the Iron Trip and Zion Radio audience win free New

American Standard Bibles, compliments of the publishers of the NASB, and also

compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

who will ship out the Bible to you at no charge to you or to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

We do have a, I believe, a first -time questioner, Kristen in Oak Point,

Texas.

Pastor Emilio, how would you transition to the gospel when speaking to a transhumanist?

And Kristen also has a second follow -up question that I will ask after you answer that one.

OK, so I think that is a fantastic question, and I think that that is very,

very important to the new apologetics that I think is needed.

And again, when I say a new apologetics, in no way am I talking about methodology.

I myself am committed to a Vantillian presuppositional apologetic using the transcendental

argument for the existence of God and those kinds of things.

However, I'm talking about a new focus, and I think that we need to refocus our energy

in the Christian faith, especially as it comes to practical evangelism and apologetics, to

talk about teleology, to talk about aesthetics.

Right now I'm seeing and what I'm witnessing more and more of is that aesthetics is driving metaphysics

in the minds of many people, that what is ultimately real is what you can see and

what they can impress you with in terms of the visual of the world.

And so I think that we need to kind of focus our attention on things like

teleology, purpose, the doctrine of the image of God will become

more relevant now than ever for Christians to really understand that the

image of God is not just a doctrine that tells us that we have dignity

and that abortion is murder, but that the image of God is also a eschatologically limiting

concept, that the image of God actually tells us what our future is

as a race.

So you understand, Chris, in the transhumanist literature, eschatological language

is replete.

Okay, it's everywhere, down to talking about heavenizing the world, to

creating a new glorious, a new creation, a glorious world, these kinds of things, okay?

And we cannot allow the world in a sense to hijack the doctrine of

eschatology any more than we can allow the world to hijack the doctrine of anthropology.

And so as we share the good news of Jesus Christ, we need to come back to the well

of John chapter 4, the woman at the well, and we need to show our friends and

neighbors that in fact this digital, technological, technocratic,

globalist kind of world that's being constructed around them will not

satisfy them, will never give them what they're looking for, and that their identity

is not found in those things any more than the woman's identity was found in her

many lovers and the many husbands that she had had.

And so I think we've got to come back to a gospel where we emphasize

the all -satisfying nature of Jesus Christ and an eschatological

gospel where we lift people out of what Charles Taylor called the eminent

frame of people who are so earthbound that they cannot see beyond the

eminent, and we need to restore a sense of transcendence to

our eschatology, to our soteriology, our anthropology, and the way we present the

gospel today.

Excellent.

And by the way, Kristen, if my assumption is correct that you are a first -time questioner,

send me your full mailing address and your last name, of course, so that we can have Cumberland Valley Bible

Book Service, cvbbs .com, ship out to you a free New American Standard Bible.

And we have, let's see, Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania,

and Arnie asks, there was a novel written

called The Island of Dr. Moreau, where a mad scientist was making

hybrids out of animals and humans.

Is this any part of the transhumanist ideology and worldview?

Sadly, it is.

It's in the literature, at least, that certain futurists and futurists, I think, would be

the general term to encompass both transhumanists and posthumanists.

I mean, a distinction your listeners need to know is that not every transhumanist is a

posthumanist, but every posthumanist is a transhumanist.

But within that, you have the general category of futurist.

And in the futurist literature, you do have chimeric

ideas.

You do have that we are not limited to simply our own biology.

You know, it's interesting.

It's interesting that in the virtual world, what prevails in the virtual world are

avatars that are chimeric, that there are a hybrid between an animal

and a human being or multiple kinds of animals.

And so this comes back maybe full circle to the way that we started in terms of what is the worldview

that's being offered up by the transhumanist dream.

The worldview is utterly pagan.

It is not neutral.

They're advancing a pagan world.

As Jacob Schatzer said, this is not about whether or not your child can be designed in a

designer babies, whether or not you want your child to be born with blue eyes or green eyes.

This is about whether or not you want your child to be born with a tail.

Wow.

Now, just going back to the animal question,

do you find anything objectionable in a Christian worldview of bioethics

where someone has, as this has happened, had a pig heart

or some other animal heart placed within them because of a heart defect,

some kind of disease, some kind of injury, whatever the case may be, the use of animal

organs and parts to help prolong the lives of people

who are in danger of losing their life or having a life where they are

oppressed by handicaps and so on?

Not necessarily, but I think we have to always keep our eye on

what direction, what is the fundamental worldview that undergirds that kind of procedure?

How far does it go along the lines of morphological freedom, whether or not you have the choice to adopt such technology or

not, and whether or not that opens up the doorway or the pathway to even more

aggressive sort of hybrid, human -animal hybrid

thinking.

And so I think it's one thing to have mascara that's

made out of some sort of animal pigmentation or something like that,

and it's another thing, or animal cells or something, it's another thing to start start

genetically editing human beings before they are born so that they can have

hybrid features.

I mean, that's apples and oranges.

Okay, we have a question that I'm going to read and have you answer when we come back

from the final break.

We have Miguel from Barnstead, New Hampshire.

I'm assuming it's Barnstead and not Barnsteed.

There is no doubt that the culture will continue to build up its Tower of Babel,

but do you not see that the focus of the Church is to continue its mandate to disciple the

nations and to teach them to obey by influencing every area of life as many

so -called Christian nationalists culture -imposed term, much like the term Christian

once was, believe today?

Or do we see the culture overcoming the Church?

I guess the question is more so as Chris once stated in the past, will Christ win

despite a losing Church?

Or through a militant and victorious Church?

You want me to handle that now or after the break?

Yes, we're going to get our final break and we'll have you handle that then.

If anybody else would like to ask a question and you're going to have to get in line, there are other people still waiting to have their

questions asked and answered.

But if you intend to submit a question, I would do so immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, always give us your first name at least, city and state and country

of residence and only remain anonymous if the question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away, we'll be right back.

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Welcome back, Emilio.

I'm going to repeat the question from Miguel in Barnstead, New Hampshire.

There is no doubt that the culture will continue to build up its tower of Babel or Babel,

but do you not see that the focus of the church is to continue its mandate to disciple the

nations and to teach them to obey by influencing every area of life as so many

so -called Christian nationalists culture -imposed term, much like the term Christian once

was, believe today?

Or do you see the culture overcoming the church?

I guess the question is more so as Chris once stated in the past, will Christ win

despite a losing church or through a militant and victorious church?

I must say that was a great question I asked, but I don't remember asking it.

But anyway,.

I'm talking about the last question that Miguel quoted.

But anyway, if you could respond to Miguel from Barnstead, New Hampshire.

Oh, sure.

Yeah, I think the question is a big question, but obviously I've already stated you know

that you know, I hold to the amillennial possession.

I don't hold to post -millennialism, so I don't really operate on

terms like winning and losing.

When I look at the Bible in terms of winning and losing, I mean, I think the question

itself needs to be a bit more informed because we are told in

2 Corinthians 2, verse 16 and following that Christ always leads us in triumph.

And so that positionally, as far as our union with Christ,

we are more than a conqueror.

You know, I'm not quite sure how much more I can win than that.

If you believe that winning is relegated to the realm of a geophysical expression,

I don't consider that winning, not in contrast to being in Christ.

If you think of losing, and somehow that means that in any Christ

system is going to be built around us, we will suffer persecution.

You know, I think that we will always be in a tension.

The kingdom prior to the return of Jesus will always be militant.

It will never be triumphant.

That awaits his second coming.

I don't, in terms of engaging culture, I don't have a problem with what would

probably be essentially a Kuyperian approach to the

lordship of Jesus in terms of, you know, trying to honor Christ in every domain

of life, whether it's family, government, politics, work, economics, whatever it may be.

I have no problem with that.

But I also don't have any sort of delusions of grandeur.

I don't believe the church is ever going to take hold of the cultural

reigns or that the church is ever going to lay hold of the global reigns of this world

and that the categories of the world versus the church, those are

categories that will remain intact in the interim delay between the

advents of Christ.

And I think that in terms of our affecting culture, I don't believe that we culture

build for Christ down here in the sense that we somehow Christianize the

world.

Or, you know, I read in John 14, kind of the opposite.

We are not preparing a place for him down here.

He is preparing a place for us up there.

And so I think, you know, there may be some post -millennial or theonomic

components, Reconstructionist components to that question that, you know, I would probably be at odds

with.

Well, Miguel, I think you're a first time questioner.

And if you are, send me your full mailing address in Barnstead, New Hampshire.

So that CVBBS .com can ship out to you a free New American Standard Bible.

We have Cindy in Findlay, Ohio.

In reference to your comment that these new technologies, they say, and not that you

agree, will allow for lifespans of 500 years or so.

How does this relate to God's declaration after the flood?

And I've heard different explanations about what God meant by the statement that a man's lifespan will

be 120 years.

OK, I'm not I'm not 100 percent sure I understand the question, but I guess

if the question has something to do with if God said, look, life is the

lifespan is going to be, you know, 80 years, right?

100 years or 80 years because of strength.

At some point he says that, right?

But but, you know, the claim of the transhumanist is radical life extension.

Then, yeah, you know, this is just another point of conflict between the Christian worldview and the

futurist dream.

Will we ever achieve radical life extension?

My answer to that question would have to be, no, I don't believe we will.

And so this to me, there is a sense, and I guess I should be honest about this, that

there there is a sense in which much of the trajectory of at this point

technology, OK, really does mean that we've kind of entered into an

unprecedented time.

And so I don't subscribe to the notion that we're living in ordinary times and that it's kind of

business as usual, 2000 years of church history.

And we've seen everything before.

Yes and no.

I mean, there is no new heresy, so to speak, right?

We, you know, ecclesiastes, what has been will be and what will be in the future has already been.

So there is the sense that there's nothing new under the sun.

However, that doesn't mean that we cannot, as things escalate into the future leading up to the return of

Jesus Christ, that things that we will not enter into unprecedented times.

And I think technology has certainly created unprecedented times

and will continue to do so.

And so I think that before, you know, there is a

theological insight that I think we need to take into account.

And that is in Genesis 11.

And we referred to the Tower of Babel earlier.

But in the Tower of Babel, you remember that it says that

unless God basically had put a stop to that, that anything that they would purpose

would happen such that nothing would be impossible for them.

And so I do believe that certain radical technological advancements can take

place.

And if God does not intervene at some point, I do think that man can

create such a world that just

goes against the very fabric of the creation that he made.

And so I think there's something to be said about that, that God comes to put an end to it for a

reason.

And what degree will technology play in that?

I'm not sure.

But I do think that God will not allow things to get so bad or even technologically so

advanced, right, that we end up with a fundamentally different world.

We start terraforming planets.

We start replacing our body parts.

We start merging with machines such that we're able to transcend our humanity.

I think, if I may be so bold, I think the Lord returns

before that is viable.

Well, we have a surprise question from your wife, Tricia, in Prosper, Texas.

When will Emilio be...

Oh, she's not allowed on the program.

When will Emilio be out at UNT Open Air Preaching again?

What is UNT?

UNT is the University of North Texas.

And I did open air preaching there for 11 years.

And before COVID struck, it was a very fruitful time.

And by God's grace, we've seen a lot of these young kids come to Christ.

And I would like to, and of course, on YouTube, Red Grace Media, we have a lot of open air preaching videos and things

like that.

But yeah, my wife is, you know, there's no

secret that my wife loves evangelism and would love to see me back on a university campus so that I can

share the gospel.

And I'm actually quite eager to get back to a university campus, because in my opinion, every church, every local church should

adopt a university.

It's kind of like evangelistically speaking, the universities is where it's at.

And that is where we really, really need to intervene in the worldview

construction of young people who are at a university and they're just having their worldview take

shape and they don't even know what they believe.

They don't know what they don't.

They don't have a purpose.

Many of them, they're aimless.

Many of them, many of them, you know, they're figuring things out.

They're discovering themselves.

And I've just found that the university is so critical to reach, to

reach people at that stage of their lives.

And I've seen it be very fruitful.

So hopefully sooner than later.

Well, she also wants to remind you to bring home a gallon of milk, a loaf of bread, and some orange juice.

Just kidding.

Make sure you send in your full mailing address, Tricia, because you've also won a new American Standard Bible.

I want to thank you so much for being such an excellent guest today, Emilio.

I want to remind our listeners that they can find out more about you and your ministry at

redgracemedia .com.

I want to thank everybody who listened.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a

sinner.