January 4, 2023 Show with Emilio Ramos on “Transhumanism & the Need for an Updated Apologetic”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father

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This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this fourth day of January 2023, our very first live program of the new year.

And I'm excited to have back on the program a returning guest, it's been quite a while since he's been on the program.

His name is Emilio Ramos, he is an author, he's the founder of Red Grace Media, and the teaching pastor of a new church plant in Frisco, Texas called

City View Church. Today we're going to be addressing a very controversial issue, an issue that a lot of our listeners might not even know how serious an issue this is.

It may seem as if we are discussing urban legends or conspiracy theories that are out of this planet, but the things that we are going to address today are really happening, and we are on the brink of some very bizarre things in our future, and we're going to be discussing transhumanism and the need for an updated apologetic.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Emilio Ramos.

Hey, it's good to be with you, Chris, God bless you, always great. It has been a little bit of a time since I've been here, but it's always good to see you and it's good to talk to you.

Well, let our listeners know about Red Grace Media. Oh, sure, yeah.

Well, Red Grace Media is just an old ministry of mine, really started out as a blog and has now kind of become a ministry that focuses on media content, filmmaking.

You know, some time ago I made a film called Unpopular with James White and Paul Washer. I've also kind of partnered with AGTV, which

I think you are aware of, but the American Gospel Films, and now AGTV, the live streaming service, and I've got different media projects on that platform as well.

You know, one of the passions that I have is producing theological content that is also very cinematic in terms of its quality.

And, you know, I recently did a project with Lane Tipton, The Biblical Theology of the

Mountain of God. People can find that on AGTV as well. But yeah, so Red Grace is just a great ministry for media content creation and I have lots of stuff coming in the near future here.

Well, if anybody wants more details on Red Grace Media, go to redgracemedia .com, redgracemedia .com

I'm just guessing, but the name Red Grace, does that have anything to do with the blood of Christ?

No, actually, no, it's an abbreviation for Redemptive Grace. Oh, okay.

Well, that does involve the blood of Christ. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Not the color. Not emphasizing the color.

Okay. Well, that would be a great answer anyway, even if it was.

Yeah. Yeah. I could go with it. Well, tell us also about this new church plant,

City View Church of Frisco, Texas. Well, we're just a small church just starting out and I've planted a couple of churches in North Texas, in the

Fort Worth area and the Dallas area here. And City View is now the place where I am fulfilling my calling,

I believe, to be a preacher and expositor and evangelist and to disciple the body of Christ with the truths of Reformed theology.

But we're a small congregation at this point and we're just starting out.

We don't have a website, but all of those things will be forthcoming. And your wife,

Trish, she operates a ministry called Fish with Trish.

Tell us about that. Oh, does she? I didn't know that. She hasn't done anything for Fish with Trish in a while.

Actually, my wife right now has an incredible ministry called Real Estate and she's a realtor here in North Dallas.

So if any of your listeners are moving here, make sure to reach out to my wife on Facebook or something.

But my wife's ministry is just evangelistic.

And it's funny because even in real estate, her ministry is so overtly

Christian that people in the real estate world just really don't know what to do with her.

But the Lord is blessing her business and we really, really look at it as a ministry because so much ministry has come out of that.

Families, friendships that have been formed, ministries that have happened because of real estate.

It's just kind of wild, but that's what she is really focusing on now. And of course, with the new church plant, my wife is going to be fully invested in the church as well.

Great. And if anybody has any questions about transhumanism, not transgenderism, transhumanism, most people as soon as you get the word started, trans, they're probably automatically, tragically and horrifically these days, automatically, instantly thinking, oh, transgenderism, right?

No, transhumanism is what we're talking about today. Something perhaps equally as sinister.

But if you have any questions about that and the need for an updated apologetic, according to our guest,

Amelia Ramos. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

I'd also like to direct our listeners, after this live show, if you want to hear a program that we did on Iron Sharp and Zion Radio five years ago, back in 2017, we had

David Herbert on the program, the author of Becoming God, Transhumanism and the

Quest for Cybernetic Immortality. And we have not done a follow -up program on that subject since then.

So you might want to just put down in a note somewhere to look that program up,

David Herbert, H -E -R -B -E -R -T, and that interview will come up when you type that into the search engine.

Well, for the sake of our listeners who are very unfamiliar with this theme, could you please define transhumanism?

Sure. Transhumanism in the most basic definition is just augmenting or enhancing humans with the use of technology.

According to some of the more popular transhumanists that are actually advocates of transhumanism, they have much more extensive definitions of what transhumanism is, just in terms that transhumanism is actually a philosophical and intellectual cultural movement that's directly from the transhumanist reader,

Max Moore, and also, obviously, Natasha Vida Moore, just for people that know.

Matter of fact, the episode that you referenced that you did some years ago, back then, you guys did talk about Natasha Vida Moore.

I remember that. And, of course, the transhumanist reader is where not only her writings are found, but also her husband,

Max Moore. And there, he talks about transhumanism being exactly that, it is a cultural movement, it is a philosophical movement about life, and it all focuses on how to move the current human condition forward through the use of applied reason, as they would say, but ultimately culminating in available technology and the technology that we have available to us today, which was not the technology that was available five years ago or 10 years ago, because it's changing so quickly.

But that really is what transhumanism is, a philosophical intellectual movement that seeks to enhance humans through the use of technology.

That would be, I guess, one way I would define it. Now, what was the sense of urgency that led you to really dive into this subject and study it and become more familiar with it and begin warning about it and teaching about it, and to the point where you wanted to discuss this on my program today?

Oh, you know, what's funny about that is that I think we all have had a sense of urgency regarding transhumanism ever since you were exposed to your first sci -fi movie or even like a horror action film like The Terminator, right?

Going all the way back to the 80s, where you're aware that the potential is there for some sort of technological monstrosity that gets out of control and seeks to kill us all, whether it's an artificial robot or Skynet or whatever.

But here recently, I think what led me to a more concentrated focus on transhumanism is the convergence of not only the explosion of technology,

Chris, but also the emergence of globalism. We really cannot talk about transhumanism without also talking about globalism and the implications of an increasing globalist way of thinking and everything from a socio -economic to an eco -spirituality that is emerging today.

And that this is why in our conversation about this, I talked about the need for a new apologetic and kind of updating our apologetics.

But once I saw that we are being kind of fast -tracked into a globalist way of thinking, where everything is reduced to one, and whether it's in the area, again, of economics or it's in the area of sort of identity politics, everything that we have seen in terms of the sexuality debates, the gender debates, those kinds of things, and to know that there is actually globalist agendas, and that those globalist agendas rely very heavily on the rolling out of transhumanist technologies and banking on the fact that we will enhance ourselves through technology down to the point that we rely on implantable technology for our commerce and our economy and our finances.

So maybe getting ahead of ourselves a little bit. But I think those things coming together increasingly.

And then I would say probably the other thing would be once I identified that many of our leading global companies, wealthiest, most powerful companies in the world are heavily invested in transhumanist technology, that also gave me a reason to pause.

And then I began reading books on it. And now I am immersed, completely immersed in it.

And what is the issue about this that would, in your opinion, cross the line in the realm of bioethics from something that is not only completely acceptable within a

Christian worldview, a biblical worldview, but something to be celebrated?

There might be things going on that we're not even aware of where scientists and physicians are coming up with new ways to make life much more enjoyable and tolerable for quadriplegics, let's say, or paraplegics, or people with all kinds of disabilities.

And yes, folks, as far as those folks that I know who have disabilities or handicaps, they don't complain about using those terms at all.

So for the sake of you who are getting upset that I'm using those descriptions, the people that I know who have spent their lives in a wheelchair and have other limitations physically don't mind those labels.

But as far as those kinds of things are concerned, what would you say, all right, this is wonderful and fine.

I'm excited about this progression and these new developments in science.

But then there's this area where you're saying, wait a minute, that's just way too far.

That violates biblical principles, et cetera. What are we talking about here as far as the union of technology and the human body and the human mind?

That's a great question. That's almost like the million -dollar question there, because it asks the question of when do we move into the area of concern and where we can actually legitimately say that biblically something is in conflict, let's say, that we've come to a point of conflict between the transhumanist worldview and the biblical worldview, let's say.

And there are many factors, actually, that inform the answer to that question, at least for me.

For me, one of those would be the worldview question. And when you understand that transhumanism is built on a particular worldview, it is not a neutral enterprise.

It is not a neutral starting point that transhumanism is operating off of.

It is absolutely committed to post -Enlightenment rationalism. It is absolutely committed to an evolutionary presupposition in the way that you interpret cosmology.

It is absolutely committed to the idea that is, you know, philosophically speaking,

Chris, it is an anti -fundamentalist movement. It is a movement that says that there is nothing fundamental in existence, that human nature, for example, and the essence of humanness is not a fundamental reality, let's say, rooted in the image of God, but that the nature of human beings can actually be changed, and should be.

This is maybe one of the more pertinent issues, is that it's not that it can be. It's that the transhumanist agenda, or what

I call the transhumanist dream, stipulates that people can not only be enhanced by technology, but there's a moral component they should be.

And that in the literature, for example, the transhumanist reader, there are scores of articles written of all the moral supremacy, or why it is superior to augment yourself versus to rely on your old evolution.

And so when you see the evolutionary presuppositions, when you understand the anti -fundamentalist ideals that fly right in the face of the image of God theology that we believe in, and when you understand the trajectory that the transhumanist movement is on, there's a book written by a good

Reformed author, his name is Jacob Schatzer. He wrote a book called

Transhumanism and the Image of God. Now one of his central focus is the concept of morphological freedom, and whether or not...

Morphological freedom is just a fancy term for saying whether or not you have the freedom to change, and that the transhumanist movement eventually is going to get into the realm of the loss of morphological freedom.

And this is why I kind of started out by talking about the factor of globalism, because technology is not necessarily economic, but globalism is.

And so when the global economy is moving in a transhumanist direction, and if you would like to keep up with the global economy, you're going to have to imbibe transhumanist thought and transhumanist technology.

And therefore, you will enter into a moment in time where you will be challenged in terms of your morphological freedom.

My personal conviction is that the next 10 years, probably every Christian family, if not every family in the world, will have to discuss the decision to get implantable technology or not.

Now... You're talking about completely healthy people that don't require something to improve their lives, like the aforementioned quadriplegic, paraplegic, somebody who has had severe brain damage in an accident, all those kind of things.

Well, I'll give you the... I'll try to explain the hypocrisy of that line of thinking.

The recent announcement and presentation by the company Neuralink, which is owned by Elon Musk, you may have seen it.

I watched the entire two -hour presentation of what they revealed there in terms of a viable

BMI technology, brain machine interface technology, where they are proposing to put an implantable chip or a piece of hardware into your skull that is connected to the cloud or the internet, and this thing will augment you.

And that was presented as an incredible step forward for exactly the type of physical maladies that you described.

But the hypocrisy in this is that Elon Musk then came forth and said,

I hope that the next time we talk about this, I will be wearing one of these or possessing one of these computer chips in my own skull.

Now, the last time I checked, Elon Musk is not a quadriplegic. So why would he be offering up coming out and parading himself on a stage with a computer chip in his head if he's perfectly healthy?

It's because that's always the plan. We're not... Just recent weeks here, both

Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates, some of the wealthiest people on the planet, literally just invested hundreds of millions of dollars into BMI technology in a company known as Synchron, a competitor of Neuralink.

But you're not spending hundreds of billions, millions of dollars into this technology all for the purpose of helping people with disabilities.

I promise you that. And that's not even the stated goal, Chris. In the literature, in the articles, in the globalist literature, they are openly, nakedly, brazenly telling us that the application of this technology has nothing to do with just helping people with their physical disabilities or neurological disorders.

They want to augment humanity in the preparation for something much, much bigger.

Like a super human race? Something like that? Well, I'll give you an example of a potential.

One of the things is you get invested in researching transhumanism, globalism, technological singularity, however you would want to phrase that, is that you start researching

TED Talks. TED Talks is one of the stages, it's one of the places where a lot of these sort of cutting edge ideas are presented.

They're presented in a very sort of easy, consumable kind of way, non -threatening type of way.

And these are presentations done by professionals that are wanting to advance an idea or to promote a technology or something like that.

And sometimes those presentations can be very interesting. I'd say that most of the time they're interesting. But when

I started researching this, you can't imagine how many presentations have been done on concepts like transhumanism.

And one of the recent presentations that was done was regarding hive mind technology. It's not just helping you, again, overcome physical limitations, but the idea that has been advanced by leading transhumanists is that we will then also be connected to the cloud in some sort of universal cosmic network.

And this is how you started your show. But by now, if we don't sound sci -fi enough, dystopian enough,

I mean, we do now. Right. But that is what is being proposed.

And so, for example, in 2018, the organization known as the

World Government Summit rolled out an entire presentation on hive mind technology and how we will all be connected.

This was done in Dubai. And that this technology will connect us to one artificially generated avatar.

This is hive like a beehive. Like a beehive. Yes, sir. Hive mind, which means there's a collective mind that we're all connected to one collective central network, technological network, a network of data.

And maybe we can get to data -ism in a moment. But this World Government Summit, at the end of their short presentation on this hive mind technology, said eight billion people on the planet are our customer.

So they want everyone connected to the hive mind technology. Now, how far away is this kind of technology?

I don't think anybody knows for certain, but maybe we can get into some important timestamps regarding transhumanism.

Well, we're going to go to our first station break right now. And once again, if you have a question for Emilio Ramos on transhumanism, on bioethics, on, in fact, since he is a pastor, if you have a pastoral question, we would welcome that.

But we don't want to take too many questions that are too outside of what we are trying to focus on today.

And our email address, again, is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Chris Arnz and Avani on Trump and Zion Radio. We're now back with Emilio Ramos, author and founder of Red Grace Media and the teaching pastor at a new church plant in Frisco, Texas, City View Church.

We are discussing transhumanism and the need for an updated apologetic. Our email address is chrisarnzinn at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state and country of residence. Before I go to any listener questions,

I just wanted to get something clarified from you. I may have overstepped in my description of today's program by saying to our listeners that these things are going on.

What I meant by that was that they are being seriously discussed. They are being financially supported and funded.

But what actually has already been created and has been established as a bona fide a device or any other way you want to describe it when it comes to the transhumanism worldview, ideology and efforts that are going on with Elon Musk and others?

Well, you know, there's various technologies that are already in place that are already under development.

And then there's kind of more ambitious technologies that are being proposed.

Of course, there are, you know, artificial intelligent technologies the world over at this point.

Artificial intelligence is already, in a sense, a transhumanist type of technology in the sense that it extends our reach.

It enhances our knowledge. It enhances our ability to compute at a more astronomical rate than ever before.

It allows us to predict behavior, predict thinking, predict patterns in human life and society.

And, you know, that level of technological sophistication is all around us.

It's what controls our streetlights. It is what controls, you know, many of our shopping experience online.

It is what Google uses as, you know, artificial intelligent algorithms that suggest to you what you should buy next.

It predicts what you will do as a consumer based on what you've done in the past.

That kind of technology is already full swing. I mean, we are already entering augmented technology definitely just in terms of the use of such technologies as a cell phone, a smartwatch, a

Fitbit, as well as smart appliances in our home such as a ring doorbell, a smart refrigerator, a smart speaker, and those kinds of things.

All of these things right now are technologies which in your previous episode on transhumanism, the gentleman that you had on there did a good job of explaining the various levels of technology in terms of things that go above the skin versus things that are aimed to go beneath the skin.

And wearable technology, external technology is something that is already there.

What the transhumanists want at this point, however, is technology that goes beneath the skin that enters into our very biology.

I don't know if you heard, but in 2022, December, not

December 11th, but not 9 -11, but 9 -12, there was an executive order that was released by the

White House. Official executive order by the Biden administration on bioengineering.

And the opening statement of that executive order stated in no uncertain terms, we will program human cells the way we program computer software.

Some people that are in the conversation of bioengineering said that that was the darkest day in the history of America and that we just don't know it yet.

But these are the kind of ported now technologies that we're looking at. We're looking at technology that becomes increasingly miniature.

Technology that becomes increasingly imperceptible to the human eye.

And of course, leading all the way up to nanotechnology, which is a technology on the level of a blood cell, that is then programmed and injected.

But where really this is heading is in the direction of intelligence. It was

John Irving Good who said this super intelligent machine is the last invention that man need to make.

And of course, because by the time you get to super intelligence, we are no longer programming the computers to be intelligent.

We are now on the cusp of the kind of intelligence where computers are programming themselves.

We're not there yet, but we're reaching that tipping point where we're moving away from artificial intelligence and we're moving to what's known as artificial general intelligence.

And general intelligence is certainly the point of computing intelligence where the machines are as smart or smarter than human beings.

And so you have transhumanists that are committed to the idea that the future is actually determined by the machines, not by human beings.

Now, some transhumanists are completely sold on this idea completely.

They're and they have no reservations about it. Somebody, a respected scientist such as Hans Marvich in his book,

Mind Children has written about the future, the extreme future, we could say, let's say 100, 200 years from now, where he believes, and he is advancing a proposal where robotics become the children of our mind and they leave us behind as it were, they leave us in the dustbin of history.

And that we need to embrace, this is actually what he teaches in his books, or this is what he, these are some of the ideas that he advances, that we must like proud parents, that we must see our robotic children off into the distant future and that we better prepare to simply admire them as they leave us behind.

I mean, this is, you can't make this up, but these are the kind of books that such respected transhumanists, no less than Ray Kurzweil, is also citing from and pulling from and endorsing.

So I mean, think of that. I mean, we have some of the leading transhumanist people telling us technology is coming such that humans will be left behind and that the artificially intelligent machines will lead the future of the universe.

Now, just again to clarify where in your opinion the line is crossed in the realm of bioethics,

Christian bioethics, from something completely acceptable, if not good and celebratory, to something evil.

Are you speaking specifically and exclusively about these implants that would be be controlling the thoughts of those involved where involuntary things are happening in their mind as opposed to something if they were to develop, just like they have implants for people who are deaf and if they were to develop implants that enable those who have lost the ability or perhaps never had the ability to speak due to a birth defect, that would enable them to speak and perhaps enable them to remember things more perfectly, etc.

Would you be opposed to any of that? Or is it more in the realm of this hive mentality where you have a hierarchy, almost a cultic kind of a system and when

I say cultic, even those that deny the existence of God really embrace their religion whether they admit that or not or whether they acknowledge that or not, but where you have somebody controlling the thought of those involved in this.

So is there a difference in your opinion between those things that I've said? Yeah, no,

I think this is why Jacob Schatzer focuses so much on morphological freedom because what he's saying is basically that we can get to a place where we no longer have control over our own bodies and we can't make the decision anymore to be changed, that the way of the future is that there's going to be a mandatory change if you would like to keep up with what is current in the socioeconomic makeup of the world.

So at what point is that going to happen? What is that going to look like? Well, I would say to some degree, we already have that happening through algorithms.

You don't have control in a sense, you don't have control as to whether or not you can operate in modern society apart from technology, you can't.

Is there really a business that can survive without a cell phone, without a laptop, without a computer, without a

Wi -Fi connection, without Bluetooth technology, without social media, without an algorithm to help you advertise your business on the latest social media platform, et cetera.

Furthermore, we are now entering the time, Chris, where maybe some language here

I need to introduce that I've kind of created in order to try to capture

I think what's happening. And that is that we're moving from PR to VR at the moment, physical reality to virtual reality.

But at present, we're actually seeing a trend more towards VR to PR in that virtual reality will begin to dictate physical reality.

That's happening. I'll give you one example, okay? And that is in a

YouTube series that was done by Iron Man. Oh, what's his name? Robert Downey Jr.

I thought I was Iron Man. Yeah, well, you are an Iron Man. Let me tell you, you're the Iron Man of podcasting, that's for sure.

But Iron Man does a whole series on the age of AI.

And he talks about how that in Hollywood, which of course, that's his guild. So he talks about in Hollywood that there's an artificial algorithm, there's a software where they feed a machine thousands of movie scripts.

The machine then comes up with its own artificial script. And that movie script comes out of a software not generated by humans directly.

And then they take the script in Hollywood studios, this is actually happening, where they then play out, act out and film whatever the software is scripting.

And in the presentation, Robert Downey Jr. says that the artificial intelligent machine is telling society in this particular script that society is too masculine.

And he makes a comment, imagine that, that AI tells us how to be better ourselves.

I mean, this is what I'm talking about in terms of VR is dictating PR. The physical world now is following the

AI aesthetic. It's really mind -blowing. And was Robert Downey Jr.

in agreement with this mindset? It wouldn't be shocking, obviously, he's, as far as I know, an unregenerate

Hollywood actor, although I do think he's a brilliant actor. I love most of his movies.

Yeah, no, he was enthusiastic. I mean, it's a very well done series.

People can watch it. There's about six episodes. It was a few years ago, but it's still very good. It does also show the limitations of technology and where we really are.

For example, in self -driving vehicles, we are not there yet. We have not yet achieved the kind of technology where self -driving vehicles are viable at the moment.

We cannot unleash self -driving vehicles on society. There might be limited expressions of that and limited iterations of that here and there, but we're not yet at the place where we can go completely autonomous in terms of our vehicles.

But notice that that is the trajectory. And this brings up another notion, Chris, that I don't know if we're gonna have time to explore, but that brings up the whole notion of post -humanism.

Transhumanism, in my opinion, is a stepping stone for the more radical post -humanist worldview, whereas transhumanism is technology that changes us or augments us.

Post -humanism is the technology that replaces us. Now, just to clarify, would you be opposed to self -operating automobiles if the technology becomes so advanced that they're completely safe, at least most of the time?

I mean, we don't want to become the Amish of the future and lead our lives according to superstitions where we reject advances in technology for reasons that are unbiblical.

Right. There's a lady by the name of Amy Webb. She is an

NYU professor, a liberal journalist as well.

But she's written a book called The Big Nine. And in this book, she explains the leading companies of the world, the big nine companies of the world that control pretty much everything in terms of commerce and stuff, or at least lead the way.

Can you pick up on The Big Nine when we return from our midway break? Oh, sure. We have to go into our midway break right now, folks.

And please be patient with us. It's the longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer break because the

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Don't go away. We're going to be right back right after these messages. Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sherpa and Zion is

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Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

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Hanover Presbytery built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

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Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio listener, I'm a toy, and Count Gilderoy Sancho.

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New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

NASB. I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, president and professor of systematic and homiletical theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White at the

First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

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At solid -ground -books .com, please always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Before I return to Amelia Ramos, our guest today, I have some very important announcements to make.

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Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, doctrinally sound, theologically solid church, like City View Church of Frisco, Texas, no matter where you live on the planet

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So let me know if that's the case or if that's the case with someone you love. Send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in questions to Amelia Ramos on transhumanism and the need for an updated apologetic.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Before I go to any of our listener questions, we do have a number of people waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

But right before the break, you were talking about the big nine corporations,

I believe they were, that an author lists who are, if I'm not mistaken, financially supporting and funding this whole transhumanism effort.

Yeah, Chris, you know, I made reference to Amy Webb, a professor out of NYU. I think

I described her as a journalist, but she's more of a, she's more of a kind of a leading thinker in the area of just forecasting and strategizing economics and stuff like that.

But she's also at Harvard. But, you know, what she did in her book, The Big Nine, in focusing on the big nine tech companies, or as she calls them, tech titans, is, again, to advance this notion of post -humanism.

Now, she didn't actually claim to make, claim to make that argument so much.

But what she did show is that through the present course and the utilization of their algorithms and in the manner in which these big companies,

I mean, think of these companies, Chris, Apple, Google, you're talking about Tencent in China, Microsoft, IBM.

These are massive, they are tech titans. And what they do through the use of certain technologies, especially artificial intelligence, according to her, they have the potential to relegate us into a digital caste system of the haves and have -nots.

And this is why, again, coming back to this issue of globalism, why it is so important for us to understand not just a computer chip going into your hand, okay?

Not just visions of the mark of the beast, okay? But to really, really, truly understand that what we're facing is a globalist movement that is undergirding a technological revolution, an explosion, exponential explosion in technology and what the world leaders will do with it.

And I'm simply calling for a new apologetic in this sense, that even as you mentioned in your announcements talking about COVID, I personally operate now on the conviction,

Chris, that we've entered into a new stage of humanity, that the world is not the same as it was before COVID.

And that technology is actually changing the world even further, changing the way that people think.

People are becoming more globalist in their thinking. People are becoming more Marxist.

People are becoming more pagan and pluralistic in their thought. And my sense is that if Christians think that we will continue to go down the path of kingdom of the cults and an old

Walter Martin path of apologetics, if you think the future of Christian apologetics has to do with debating

Greek fragments of the New Testament, I believe that we will be unequipped and ill -prepared to answer the futurist, globalist, transhumanist, and then later post -humanist challenge.

This is why I talked about transhumanism as a lead up or leading to more post -humanist ideas.

Under post -humanism, humans are replaced. And this is happening in the realm of automation.

This is happening in the realm of robotics. And this is happening in the realm of AI computing.

Recently here, there was the emergence of a terrifying technology, chat

GPT, which is again an artificially intelligent algorithm that operates on language learning.

And this artificial intelligence is terrifying people because of course, what it purports to do is to be able to replace humans at all sorts of different levels of creativity, including art, music, writing, these kinds of things.

You're not gonna need artists in the future. You're not gonna need architects in the future. You're not gonna need musicians in the future.

You're not gonna need composers in the future when we have the kind of algorithm that can replace us and do it better than us on multiple levels.

And so that's something that we really need to consider. I look forward to the day when we no longer need politicians, however.

Yeah, let's start there, huh? Yeah, we have an anonymous listener who asks a very good question.

The anonymous listener says, I know that your guest is reformed, but I don't know where he stands in regard to eschatology.

The reason I ask this is that for decades, amillennial and postmillennial reformed

Christians have been mocking pre -tribulational dispensationalists in regard to the bizarre allegories they have come up with in regard to things that we are supposed to be awaiting and be warned about in our future.

Much of what you are discussing seems to go hand in hand with all the discussions of 666 being implanted in our skin and other things like that.

Has this discussion and investigation of the transhumanism ideology got you to rethink any of your own personal views against dispensational allegories?

I think there are several factors there. I think we need to separate dispensationalism from premillennialism or futuristic interpretations of eschatology.

I am amillennial. I am committed to the amillennial eschatological scheme in the tradition, let's say, of Hermann Bavink, of Gerhardus Voss, of Van Til, of Meredith Klein, and today, leading thinkers in eschatology like G .K.

Beale. Nothing that I'm talking about here today is in conflict,

I believe, with biblical eschatology. And I guess in order to show my eschatological cards, in a sense,

I do interpret Revelation 17 and 18, for example, as futuristic. I do not believe that Revelation's Babylon is a past phenomenon.

I do think it is the culmination of a very deep biblical theology, and I don't know if your listeners know what

I mean by that, but the development of an organic motif, the unfolding of the theology of the

Bible redemptive historically, that begins in such things as the Tower of Babel, later the

Babylonian captivity, and then, of course, culminating in the future apocalyptic visions of John, where those themes, ideas, and even intertextuality culminate in the last day or the end time

Babel or Babylon system, which I think leads up to the parousia, the second coming of Jesus.

And so I do believe in things such as a future antichrist, a future tribulation, a future administration, some future realization of the mark of the beast, though not necessarily in the most literalistic terms.

So I think that is a very important idea to grapple with.

I don't have an optimistic view of post -millennialism I don't believe society will get better and better and better.

That doesn't mean I don't believe the kingdom is growing and expanding and God is saving his elect.

He certainly is. But I also don't share, let's say, the specificities of classic dispensationalism and pre -tribulational rapture theories.

I disagree with pre -trib theology. So that's where I would be.

Just so I could put my two cents in, even though I am an amillennialist, I have interviewed enough post -millennialists and theonomists to know that most of them do not believe that things will only progressively get better.

There are those that think we could be plunged into even centuries of darkness like the world has never known before before things ultimately get better.

So, I mean, some of the things that you're talking about could, I think, just as well be handled properly by a post -millennialist who warns against these things and has a frightening view of our immediate future, not an ultimate future being, you know, sinister and so on.

But as far as an immediate future goes, I mean, do you understand where I'm coming from on that? Maybe a debate for a different time.

Remember, I am amillennialist. Yeah, because though I understand, I certainly don't agree.

We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

And Ronald says, most of us who are baseball fans have heard about Ted Williams' family after he died, had his brain frozen at a cryonics lab in hopes that there would be a future where he would be able to live and think again.

Is this a part of what you are talking about? Maybe, but I think the greater idea here is that transhumanism is advancing the notion of what they call radical life extension.

And that typically has to do with nanotechnology and the ability to create a kind of technology that targets diseases, regenerate cells, those kinds of things, all the way leading up to artificial body parts, mapping out the human brain.

And so in terms of bringing people back from some kind of cryotube, I don't see a lot of that in the literature, but I think what

I see in the literature is people following Ray Kurzweil, mainly Ray Kurzweil and his idea that if you can live long enough where we get a minimal life extension technology, then that can actually allow you to live long enough, let's say to the middle of the century, 2045 or 2050, where then the radical life extension technology will be available.

And so that no one really needs to ever go into a cryotube. You can just depend on the nanotechnology to get you to that radical life extension.

I will differ a little bit with the episode that you had previously in the notion of Homo Deus, which is the title of Yuval Noah Harari's book on globalism and transhumanism.

There are no actual claims to deity on the part of transhumanists that they will be gods.

And I don't think your guest really believes that or claimed that, but that they will be godlike.

And so that is what the radical life extension technology is really talking about, is that these are godlike abilities and that we will enhance our intelligence and radically extend our life expectancy.

Ray Kurzweil saying that basically in a hundred years from now, in a hundred years from now, life expectancy will no longer be a viable term.

In other words, that people it's perceived will be able to continue to live for eternity.

That people will live hundreds of years and that in living hundreds of years, we don't really walk around talking about life expectancy anymore because by then, again, future technologies will be so radical, okay, that perhaps what we think about in terms of living for 500 years will pale in comparison to how long we can live when those hundreds of years come about.

Let me just be very clear about something, Chris, though. I don't personally believe that post -humanism of any kind will be achievable, not at the genetic level.

I don't think that guys like Damien Broderick who define post -humanism as people that will have unprecedented physical and let's say intellectual and psychological abilities and that will potentially achieve a sense of immortality.

So I think it's important from the Christian worldview, not the claims of the transhumanists, but from the

Christian worldview, we do not believe that post -humanism is achievable. Obviously. And so I think we need to make that very clear, but transhumanism at certain points certainly is.

Implantable technology is right around the corner and post -humanist ideas such as replacing the workforce, for example.

Ray Kurzweil in a section of his book, Spiritual Machines, has a section in where a fictitious dialogue happens with his future self, where he talks about in the future that your children or that his child in the future is basically being raised by an artificially intelligent nanny bot and that it's better than the human mother because it can do everything much better and the baby likes it better than a real mother.

And this has created in the futurist literature, the idea of what they call real reality and that virtual reality or in a sense, right?

Synthetic reality or robotic reality or nano reality will be better than real reality.

So Ray Kurzweil speaks about the future consisting of kind of an ectoskeleton bodysuit where you enter not only in virtual worlds, but it will enable you to sense everything as more real than the real world.

Everything from sexuality to emotion and everything like that.

So these are some of the concepts that kind of come about. So we have an anonymous listener who says

I'm remaining anonymous because I am constantly battling with my unsaved family over the evils of the transgender movement.

But I was wondering if the transgender movement is a part of this transhumanist movement where they envision men can actually become childbearing females and that women can actually become biological men.

Yes, I actually do believe that the transgender phenomenon that we're watching today is something of a conditioning of society.

And so here we get, if I guess I'm going to be accused of anything conspiratorial, there's certainly an agenda.

But honestly, I say that on the basis of facts where of course, what worldview is, what is the prevailing worldview in the transhumanist literature?

Well, they're not talking about Judeo -Christian values and Judeo -Christian sexuality and biblical sexuality.

They are talking about sexuality basically being up for grabs. Ray Kurzweil himself in his books envisions a time where through nanotechnology and nanobot swarm technology, basically enough robotic technology within your bloodstream and in your body to be able to essentially shift into whatever mode of being you would like, including becoming androgynous and going between male and female.

And so, yes, I think the transgender agenda is part of the ultimate transhumanist and globalist dream.

And of course, I'm assuming from what you said earlier, this is another part of the dream that can never possibly be realized and come to fruition.

Correct. I do believe that is accurate. Okay. By the way,

Anonymous, if you are a first -time questioner, let us know because all of our first -time questioners in the

Iron Turf and Zion Radio audience win free New American Standard Bibles, compliments of the publishers of the

NASB, and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

who will ship out the Bible to you at no charge to you or to Iron Turf and Zion Radio.

We do have, I believe, a first -time questioner, Kristen in Oak Point, Texas.

Pastor Emilio, how would you transition to the gospel when speaking to a transhumanist?

And Kristen also has a second follow -up question that I will ask after you answer that one. Okay. So I think that is a fantastic question.

And I think that that is very, very important to the new apologetics that I think is needed.

And again, when I say a new apologetics, in no way am I talking about methodology. I myself am committed to a

Vantilian presuppositional apologetic using the transcendental argument for the existence of God and those kinds of things.

However, I'm talking about a new focus. And I think that we need to refocus our energy in the

Christian faith, especially as it comes to practical evangelism and apologetics, to talk about teleology, to talk about aesthetics.

Right now, I'm seeing, and what I'm witnessing more and more of, is that aesthetics is driving metaphysics in the minds of many people.

That what is ultimately real is what you can see and what they can impress you with in terms of the visual of the world.

And so I think that we need to kind of focus our attention on things like teleology, purpose, the doctrine of the image of God will become more relevant now than ever for Christians to really understand that the image of God is not just a doctrine that tells us that we have dignity and that abortion is murder, but that the image of God is also a eschatologically limiting concept, that the image of God actually tells us what our future is as a race.

So you understand, Chris, in the transhumanist literature, eschatological language is replete, okay?

It's everywhere, down to talking about heavenizing the world, to creating a new glorious, a new creation, a glorious world, these kinds of things, okay?

And we cannot allow the world, in a sense, to hijack the doctrine of eschatology any more than we can allow the world to hijack the doctrine of anthropology.

And so as we share the good news of Jesus Christ, we need to come back to the well of John chapter four, the woman at the well, and we need to show our friends and neighbors that in fact, this digital, technological, technocratic, globalist kind of world that's being constructed around them will not satisfy them, will never give them what they're looking for, and that their identity is not found in those things any more than the woman's identity was found in her many lovers and the many husbands that she had had.

And so I think we've got to come back to a gospel where we emphasize the all satisfying nature of Jesus Christ, and an eschatological gospel where we lift people out of what

Charles Taylor called the eminent frame of people who are so earth bound that they cannot see beyond the eminent.

And we need to restore a sense of transcendence to our eschatology, to our soteriology, our anthropology, and the way we present the gospel today.

Excellent. And by the way, Kristen, if my assumption is correct that you are a first time questioner, send me your full mailing address and your last name, of course, so that we can have

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, ship out to you a free

New American Standard Bible. And we have, let's see,

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, and Arnie asks, there was a novel written called

The Island of Dr. Moreau, where a mad scientist was making hybrids out of animals and humans.

Is this any part of the transhumanist ideology and worldview?

Sadly, it is. It's in the literature, at least, that certain futurists, futurists,

I think, would be the general term to encompass both transhumanists and posthumanists. I mean, a distinction your listeners need to know is that not every transhumanist is a posthumanist, but every posthumanist is a transhumanist.

But within that, you have the general category of futurist. And in the futurist literature, you do have chimeric ideas.

You do have that we are not limited to simply our own biology. It's interesting that in the virtual world, what prevails in the virtual world are avatars that are chimeric, that there are a hybrid between an animal and a human being or multiple kinds of animals.

And so this comes back maybe full circle to the way that we started in terms of what is the worldview that's being offered up by the transhumanist dream?

The worldview is utterly pagan. It is not neutral. They're advancing a pagan world.

As Jacob Schatzer said, this is not about whether or not your child can be designed and designer babies, whether or not you want your child to be born with blue eyes or green eyes.

This is about whether or not you want your child to be born with a tail. Wow. Now, just going back to the animal question, do you find anything objectionable in a

Christian worldview of bioethics where someone has, as this has happened, had a pig heart or some other animal heart placed within them because of a heart defect, some kind of disease, some kind of injury, whatever the case may be.

The use of animal organs and parts to help prolong the lives of people who are in danger of losing their life or having a life where they are oppressed by handicaps and so on.

Not necessarily, but I think we have to always keep our eye on what direction, what is the fundamental worldview that undergirds that kind of procedure?

How far does it go along the lines of morphological freedom, whether or not you have the choice to adopt such technology or not, and whether or not that opens up the doorway or the pathway to even more aggressive sort of human -animal hybrid thinking.

And so I think it's one thing to have mascara that's made out of some sort of animal pigmentation or something like that.

And it's another thing, or animal cells or something, it's another thing to start genetically editing human beings before they are born so that they can have hybrid features.

I mean, that's apples and oranges. Okay, we have a question that I'm going to read and have you answer when we come back from the final break.

We have Miguel from Barnstead, New Hampshire. I'm assuming it's

Barnstead and not Barnsteed. There is no doubt that the culture will continue to build up its

Tower of Babel. But do you not see that the focus of the Church is to continue its mandate to disciple the nations and to teach them to obey by influencing every area of life as many so -called

Christian nationalists culture -imposed term, much like the term Christian once was, believe today?

Or do we see the culture overcoming the Church? I guess the question is more so as Chris once stated in the past, will

Christ win despite a losing Church or through a militant and victorious

Church? You want me to handle that now or after the break?

Yes, we're going to get our final break and we'll have you handle that then. If anybody else would like to ask a question and you're going to have to get in line, there are other people still waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

But if you intend to submit a question, I would do so immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnzen at Gmail .com, ChrisArnzen at Gmail .com, always give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence and only remain anonymous if the question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away, we'll be right back. I'm Dr.

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Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. Welcome back,

Emilio. I'm going to repeat the question from Miguel in Barnstead, New Hampshire.

There is no doubt that the culture will continue to build up its tower of Babel or Babel.

But do you not see that the focus of the church is to continue its mandate to disciple the nations and to teach them to obey by influencing every area of life as so many so -called

Christian nationalists, culture -imposed term, much like the term Christian once was, believe today?

Or do you see the culture overcoming the church? I guess the question is more so, as Chris once stated in the past, will

Christ win despite a losing church or through a militant and victorious church?

I must say that was a great question I asked, but I don't remember asking it. But anyway,

I'm talking about the last question that Miguel quoted. But anyway, if you could respond to Miguel from Barnstead, New Hampshire.

Oh, sure. Yeah, I think the question is a big question, but obviously

I've already stated you know that, you know, I hold to the amillennial possession.

I don't hold to post -millennialism, so I don't really operate on terms like winning and losing.

When I look at the Bible in terms of winning and losing, I mean, I think the question itself needs to be a bit more informed because we are told in 2

Corinthians 2, verse 16 and following that Christ always leads us in triumph. And so that positionally, as far as our union with Christ, we are more than a conqueror.

So, you know, I'm not quite sure how much more I can win than that. If you believe that winning is relegated to the realm of a geophysical expression,

I don't consider that winning, not in contrast to being in Christ. If you think of losing that, and somehow that means that in any

Christ system is going to be built around us, we will suffer persecution. You know,

I think that we will always be in a tension. The kingdom prior to the return of Jesus will always be militant.

It will never be triumphant. That awaits his second coming. I don't, in terms of engaging culture,

I don't have a problem with what would probably be essentially a Kuyperian approach to the lordship of Jesus in terms of, you know, trying to honor

Christ in every domain of life, whether it's family, government, politics, work, economics, whatever it may be.

I have no problem with that. But I also don't have any sort of delusions of grandeur. I don't believe the church is ever going to take hold of the cultural reigns or that the church is ever going to lay hold of the global reigns of this world.

And that the categories of the world versus the church, those are categories that will remain intact in the interim delay between the advents of Christ.

And I think that in terms of our affecting culture, I don't believe that we culture build for Christ down here in the sense that we somehow

Christianize the world. Or, you know, I read in John 14 kind of the opposite.

We are not preparing a place for him down here. She is preparing a place for us up there.

And so I think, you know, there may be some post -millennial or theonomic components,

Reconstructionist components to that question that, you know, I would probably be at odds with. Well, Miguel, I think you're a first time questioner.

And if you are, send me your full mailing address in Barnstead, New Hampshire, so that CVBBS .com

can ship out to you a free New American Standard Bible. We have Cindy in Findley, Ohio.

In reference to your comment that these new technologies, they say, and not that you agree, will allow for lifespans of 500 years or so.

How does this relate to God's declaration after the flood? And I've heard different explanations about what

God meant by the statement that a man's lifespan will be 120 years. OK, I'm not 100 % sure

I understand the question, but I guess if the question has something to do with if God said, look, life is the lifespan is going to be, you know, 80 years, right?

100 years or 80 years because of strength at some point. He says that, right?

But, you know, the claim of the transhumanist is radical life extension. Then, yeah, you know, this is just another point of conflict between the

Christian worldview and the futurist dream. Will we ever achieve radical life extension?

My answer to that question would have to be no, I don't believe we will. And so this to me, there is a sense, and I guess

I should be honest about this, that there is a sense in which much of the trajectory of, at this point, technology, okay, really does mean that we've kind of entered into an unprecedented time.

And so I don't subscribe to the notion that we're living in ordinary times and that it's kind of business as usual, 2000 years of church history, and we've seen everything before.

Yes and no. I mean, there is no new heresy, so to speak, right? You know, ecclesiastes, what has been will be and what will be in the future has already been.

So there is the sense that there's nothing new under the sun. However, that doesn't mean that we cannot, as things escalate into the future, leading up to the return of Jesus Christ, that things that we will not enter into unprecedented times.

And I think technology has certainly created unprecedented times and will continue to do so.

And so I think that before, you know, there is a theological insight that I think we need to take into account.

And that is in Genesis 11 in the we referred to the Tower of Babel earlier.

But in the Tower of Babel, you remember that it says that unless God basically had put a stop to that, that anything that they would purpose would happen such that nothing would be impossible for them.

And so I do believe that certain radical technological advancements can take place.

And if God does not intervene at some point, I do think that man can create such a world that just goes against the very fabric of the creation that he made.

And so I think there's something to be said about that, that God comes to put an end to it for a reason.

And what degree will technology play in that? I'm not sure, but I do think that God will not allow things to get so bad or even technologically so advanced, right, that we end up with a fundamentally different world.

We start terraforming planets. We start replacing our body parts. We start merging with machines such that we're able to transcend our humanity.

I think, if I may be so bold, I think the

Lord returns before that is viable. Well, we have a surprise question from your wife,

Tricia, in Prosper, Texas. When will Emilio be... Oh, she's not allowed on the program.

When will Emilio be out at UNT Open Air Preaching again? What is UNT? UNT is the

University of North Texas. And I did open air preaching there for 11 years.

And before COVID struck, it was a very fruitful time. And by God's grace, we've seen a lot of these young kids come to Christ.

And I would like to, and of course, on YouTube, Red Grace Media, we have a lot of open air preaching videos and things like that.

But yeah, my wife is, you know, there's no secret that my wife loves evangelism and would love to see me back on a university campus so that I can share the gospel.

And I'm actually quite eager to get back to a university campus, because in my opinion, every church, every local church should adopt a university.

It's kind of like evangelistically speaking, the universities is where it's at. And that is where we really, really need to intervene in the worldview construction of young people who are at a university.

And they're just having their worldview take shape. And they don't even know what they believe. They don't know what, they don't have a purpose.

Many of them, they're aimless. Many of them, many of them, you know, they're figuring things out.

They're discovering themselves. And I've just found that the university is so critical to reach people at that stage of their lives.

And I've seen it be very fruitful. So hopefully sooner than later. Well, she also wants to remind you to bring home a gallon of milk, a loaf of bread and some orange juice.

Just kidding. Make sure you send in your full mailing address, Tricia, because you've also won a new

American Standard Bible. I want to thank you so much for being such an excellent guest today, Emilio. I want to remind our listeners that they can find out more about you and your ministry at redgracemedia .com.

I want to thank everybody who listened. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater