Pastor Challenges Sister Missionary with Unyielding Truth

Apologia Utah

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Hi ma 'am, how are you tonight? Good, can I give you a gospel track? It's just about what the

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Bible says about how we can be saved through faith. Are you a believer? What?

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Are you a Christian or are you part of the LDS? Okay, well, let me ask this question.

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So the LDS... Sure, no problem. Sure. Oh, so my question is...

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So the LDS church teaches, and maybe you can correct me, but they teach that you are saved by grace after all you can do.

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Right? So those are works. But if you look in Scripture, at the book of Romans and many other passages, we clearly see that the

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Bible says that we are saved by faith apart from works of the law so that no man may boast.

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That's Ephesians 2, 8 and 9. And here's multiple verses that are telling us that we are saved by grace, that there is nothing that we can do to be saved.

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How would you reconcile that difference? I think that my works would never be sufficient for the

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God of life. And there's nothing that...

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The works I'm able to perform in this life are out of my limitations. Absolutely.

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So they're results of your faith. Like God saved you, thank you

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Lord, but then you work because of God saved you. Is that what you're saying?

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I'm saying that I'm trying to do.

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Yeah. Can I ask you, what do you think then of Moroni 10 .32?

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Yea, come unto Christ and be perfected in Him. And deny yourselves of all ungodliness.

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And then there's an if -then statement. And if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love

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God with all your might, mind and strength, then is His grace sufficient for you.

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So it seems like in this if -then statement in Moroni, if you deny yourself of all ungodliness, if you live out the gospel ordinances and principles well, then

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His grace is active, sufficient, cares for the rest.

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So it seems to me like there's some sort of coordination between you and then what

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Jesus did. If that makes sense. And so, the reason I say that is in Galatians chapter 1,

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Paul speaks to the church at Galatia and he says, Some Jews have come among you who say they're believers, and they've told you that if you don't get circumcised according to the law of Moses, you won't be saved.

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It doesn't matter if you have faith in Jesus, you've also got to do this. So then there's that coordination of what

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Jesus did and then the circumcision that they have to do. So I've been told by LDS neighbors that if I don't get re -baptized, because I'm a

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Protestant Christian, if I don't get re -baptized into their church, I will not make it to celestial kingdom.

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I won't be in God's presence. So that makes it a work. If I don't do that, if that, then...

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Does that make sense? I see where you're coming from. I would say to that that being saved by our works and the

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Lord requiring His power, it's not my power, it's

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God's power. Does that make sense? Sure, but the Jews of the first century would say the same thing.

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It'd be like, you know, this circumcision isn't about you, it's more about what God commands.

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It's what He wants, right? They would say something similar. It's the

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Lord enacting His power in your life and it's you letting

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His power in. So you're opening to the Lord. I see.

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But it's not your power. My question would be, the

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LDS church is teaching faith plus something in order to be saved because you have to do something.

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But the Bible is teaching clearly, consistently, all through Scripture, that you are saved by faith apart from any works of the law so that no one may boast.

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And that's a clear contradiction. Right? One saying, there is nothing that you can ever do to be saved.

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The only thing that you can do is believe. Right? And then the church is saying, you need to be saved by Jesus and you need to do these things.

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But that's not what the Bible teaches. I think we have a different understanding of what it means to be saved.

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As members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, we believe that all of God's children will be saved.

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And that all people will receive a degree or an amount of God's glory.

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What about the doctrines of outer darkness for apostates and for certain people though?

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Yes. So not everyone. So not everyone. Those people would have to actively see

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God as part of the United States of America. So they would have to do something. Right?

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So that's kind of what we're saying is there's these hoops that you're saying that you have to jump through.

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But Jesus said that I am the way, I am the truth, I am the law. No one comes to the

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Father but through faith in Me. And then we see through this Scripture that it is merely that faith that justifies us, makes us righteous before God, and that there's nothing more that we do after that that will make us right before God.

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That merely our works are an outward showing that inward faith that we have.

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But they don't save us. But what you're saying though, in agreement, but you're also at the same time saying you must do this.

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These people must do this in order to be saved. And I'm saying, and the Bible is saying that that's a direct confirmation.

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And certain things that you perform will get you to certain levels of heaven. And that sounds like partiality.

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That sounds like this person tried all that they could. This person maybe tried harder.

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What about the best? What about all that God has to offer? Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off there.

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No, I'm sorry. ...completely just, and that he allows all people the opportunity to receive all of his blessings.

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And so, I'm not sure if you're in agreement with the doctrine of the

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Church of Jesus Christ and you think that God, that we believe in God, doesn't allow people to be offered the best blessing.

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No, no, it wouldn't be that exactly. So let me bring something up. So actually, Spencer W.

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Kimball, one of the prophets and presidents of the Church, he wrote this book, The Miracle of Forgiveness.

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He lays out the fact that if you don't repent from your sin and stop doing it, like if you accidentally do it again, if an

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LDS missionary, so to speak, accidentally sees something on a woman or something and lusts after her real quick and then he's like, ah,

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I repent. According to this prophet and other prophets, if he does it again, then he shows that he's never truly repented.

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You know, I ask people, how do you feel like you're doing? And they say, I'm trying pretty hard. I'm trying,

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I'm trying. Well, according to Spencer W. Kimball, he says, to try is weak.

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To do, quote, the best I can is not strong. We must always do better. He talks about the fact that trying is not sufficient.

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Then he brings up a soldier who basically is given a message and he has to deliver it to another commanding officer.

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And the soldier says, I'll do my best. And he's like, no, I asked you to do it. And he's like, okay,

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I'll die trying. And he's like, I didn't ask you to die. I said for you to do it. And he basically says,

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I've ordered it. Now get out of here and accomplish your mission. So, you know, there's just basically all these things, no forgiveness without repentance.

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So it seems to me then, repentance is something that has to take place before faith and grace is enacted.

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Whereas the Bible shows that we're dead in our trespasses and sin, but He made us alive in Christ Jesus.

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Jesus says in John 3, He tells Nicodemus, you must be born again. You must be regenerated.

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So the only way that we can ever exercise faith is if we're made alive by the Spirit of God. So therefore,

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I can't even repent from my sin until He's, you know, and the Holy Spirit has come into me, right?

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Of course, you can't repent on your own, God's grace, that you're able to get to that point.

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He says here, repentance is necessary to get any forgiveness. Whereas actually, the

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Bible shows forgiveness comes first, like, and regeneration comes, and then simultaneously a heart of repentance comes at that moment.

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But here, forgiveness is predicated on perfect repentance. So He goes on to say, the prophet and president says, if you are unrepentant by the time you die, you're not making it.

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So this is the words of the man who says he speaks for your organization, your church, right?

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I would ask you too. So are you telling me that you don't think that the works that you do determine where you're going to end up someday?

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Is that what you're telling me? You rise here? Yeah. By the way, we're not trying to be harsh with you or anything.

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We really appreciate your time. I understand that you believe very strongly, just as I believe, and that you're trying to help people understand the way that you understand.

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And I served a mission, so... Yeah, you know, you get the drill. Yeah. But let me ask you that question.

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If you abide in the thought that your works that you do today will determine where you end up, what level of heaven that you end up in, or where you end up someday...

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I think I try to live my life in a way that when

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I... when I see God, that I won't... that I'll just feel

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His mercy and His love, and I won't have to be ashamed of His presence.

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That I'll just know that I relied on Him that whole time. That I was saved. That I relied on Him.

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And now I realize that I walked with Him the whole way.

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But do you... I guess my question, though, is do you think that the works that you're doing, is there anywhere in your mind that the works that you do today on Earth will determine where...

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what level of heaven... Here's a question. Will you marry and how many children do you have?

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Or... How good you serve others. Do you think about...

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How much you give to the church. Those things will predicate where... what level of heaven...

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How close to God you will be. Or how close you are to God. How charitable

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I am. My church attendance.

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How often I go to the temple. How often I pray. These things, they... I'm never perfect.

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Sure. There's no way my works could ever get me to heaven.

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Like, I'm so imperfect. And it's only through Christ that I'm ever able to get to that heaven.

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I wish I could explain my... the way I'm thinking about it a little bit better, but everything that I do,

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I don't have like a checklist of, okay, I did this, this, this. I'm going to heaven. I don't have a...

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Everything that I do comes from wanting to come closer to Christ.

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I can appreciate all that you just said and I agree with much of it. I just don't think that the majority of LDS church history does agree with you.

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In fact, if you and I if we were to go to a library nearby and we were to spend time in research, we would look at a lot of quotes and a lot of documents and a lot of books that have been produced by this church that say different and contrary to what you just said.

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And that's a big deal. That's like if they're authoritative, if this is the one true church on earth and they speak for God, then why in this progressive revelation have things changed?

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Why was it more works -based? And, you know, why are

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BYU professors and other bishops talking more about grace today? But then at the end of the day,

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I've talked to some of these folks who are like, it's nothing that I can do, but they'll still tell me if I don't get baptized and go to this church,

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I won't get to the level that God promises. And so, you know, it's still, yeah.

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I think it's less about what you're doing and rather what God is doing to you as you open the door to let that light into your life.

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And so it's not that you're being baptized that you are saving yourself, but that God's power is saving you.

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But is He saving you through those actions continually? Or has

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He saved you merely through your faith in Him? I think faith is outward.

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You're absolutely right. Yes. But our works are, like you said in the beginning, our works are outwardly showing that we have an inward faith in Christ.

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But the opposite is being taught, because we're saying now, I need to be baptized in certain ways.

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I need to do certain things. And that is that is the key.

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It's what the Bible is saying. There is nothing you can do to enter the

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Kingdom of God but through faith in Jesus. And that's consistent throughout

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Scripture. And what you're saying is you are saved by your faith in Christ consistently.

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But I need baptism. And God will help you perform that. And so let me give you an illustration real quick that might be helpful of where we're coming from real quick.

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He knows I love fruit trees. We used to grow fruit trees all the time in Arizona. Around here

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I love how you can grow peaches and plums and all that. So Jesus talks about you'll know them by their fruit sort of thing.

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Fruit is in the Bible. It's amazing. So you have James 2 and James, the brother of our

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Lord Jesus, isn't speaking anything against the doctrines that the Apostle Paul has brought by the

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Holy Spirit. The Apostle Paul speaks about doctrinal things, theology, things that are so fundamental to the faith.

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He talks about how we can be reconciled before a holy and righteous God. The doctrine is called justification by faith.

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Justification is a forensic term. It means to be made right before God. How can I, as a wicked sinner, be made righteous before a holy

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God? And Paul says in Romans 4, if you work, you've earned a wage.

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But that would give you room to boast. He says before you've done a single work, favor is granted to you.

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Before you've done a single thing, the favor of God, which is grace, which we get the word unmerited favor.

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Merit is work, right? So, before I've done a single thing, God grants me His favor.

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And then James 2, he's talking to a different audience. So, Paul's talking about how unbelievers are saved, theology -wise.

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James is writing a letter, he says, in James chapter 1, to Christians, people who are already

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Christians, not people who are unbelievers. So, James is addressing the fact that there's people who've been going around and acting like they're

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Christians, but their faith shows, their works show that their faith is actually dead.

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It's not a vibrant, living faith, but he's not making a doctrine, a theology, of how people are saved.

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He's actually giving an exhortation to all people who already claim they're

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Christians, that they're not living up to the faith that God has called them to.

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So, there's a fundamental category difference, and so here's the, here's where the tree thing comes in.

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So, here's what I see, tell me what you think. So, the way

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I understand it is, the Bible talks about how Jesus, they hear yet? Jesus is the cornerstone.

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Talks about, Jesus says in John 15, He is the vine. And actually, in the

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Greek, that word speaks more to being the trunk, like you look at the trunk of a tree, that's like, the trunk of a tree, yeah, is the main the trunk and the roots are the main areas where they pull, you know, water, nutrients, stuff like that.

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Jesus is the root of salvation. He is He is the cornerstone of salvation.

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It's His work and His work alone, and out of these branches, out of these things, I talked about fruit that I like, plums and oranges and all these things, good works, the things that James is talking about, to show that that tree is actually rooted in saving faith in Jesus Christ, that fruit will produce works that are like that.

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So, Jesus says a fig tree doesn't produce briars, you know, a vine of grapes doesn't produce thistles, it's going to produce what is its root, and so our works are evidence, outward evidence of an inward change, an inward reality that only

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Jesus did, and so they flow out of us, but what we're concerned about is what this book, what, you know, the

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DNC, what many other teachings of the LDS Church have demonstrated is

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Jesus is part of the root, but then the other part of the root is what

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I do, so no longer are the fruits simply just evidences of what

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Jesus did, they're also what feeds the whole tree, they feed the whole system.

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Does that make sense? Yeah, so consider that a little bit, because at the end of the day, like I said, is it

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Jesus plus you? Is it Jesus plus me? When He said in John chapter 20 to Telistai, it is finished, that means on that day

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He died of vicarious atonement, He died in our place, I should have been on that cross one day,

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I should have paid the penalty for my sin, the wrath of God was poured out on the

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Son of God and He took it, it was meant for us, it would have afforded us an eternity in hell, but the amazing thing is that the

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Son of God came down and He took that full wrath upon Himself and to say that we can contribute to that glorious and beautiful work is,

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I think, an offense to God and so I'm glad that you've articulated largely otherwise, but then join us because I don't think that they do at all, so I hope that makes sense.

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I appreciate your testimony of Jesus Christ, I would say the main difference between our beliefs is that I believe that God continues to speak and that the value that the

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Bible has is that it's the reported word of God and that God has not ceased to speak, and so DNC, which you just disparaged, is the reported word of God.

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But what if that conflicts with the written word of God? Right, right, and I don't mean to offend you,

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I just think that the three other revelations plus any spoken revelation by prophets, it can't go through contradiction.

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God doesn't contradict Himself, right? There are contradictions in the Bible, but I don't paint my picture.

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I'm not talking about contradictions in the Bible, they're easily resolved, there is none actually, but there are some,

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I'm so sorry, I don't mean to offend you, but there are some between Mormon revelation and the

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Bible. I think that they give a fuller picture. Like you have to be a polygamist to go to the highest level of heaven?

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That is not a polygamist. Isn't that DNC 132? 132 does say that we must be sealed by the promise or the

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Holy Spirit of promise. The Holy Spirit of promise refers to having your expectation assured.

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Let's pull it up. Hey, do you have a DNC copy on you? I actually just studied this chapter this morning.

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Yeah, I'd love to look at it with you. Is it DNC 132 that speaks about polygamy being plural lives being new and everlasting covenant?

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It's an everlasting covenant. It'll never fade away. So you studied that today.

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What do you make of that? Yeah, yeah.

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Undermine wouldn't be the word. We really do care for you desperately. I'll risk offending you for the sake of the truth.

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So yeah, we're just concerned that that's once again another work that an eternal covenant, plural marriage is necessary to make it to the celestial level.

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We believe that eternal marriage is necessary to... There you go.

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Right, so that's a word telling you. Yeah, she's right.

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There's six definitions of salvation. I think the one you're talking about is salvation from physical death.

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Is that right? Or are you talking about exaltation? I'm talking about exaltation. Okay, so that would include all of it.

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I just want to say that nothing can shake my testimony of the prophet

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Joseph Smith. I've had God reveal to me that he really was a prophet and...

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Even if he is false prophecy. He has many false prophecies.

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So 1 John says test the spirits. So we would challenge you to do the same thing.

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Deuteronomy 13 and 18 speak, if a prophet comes and speaks in the name of God, he's not a false prophecy.

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He's not a true prophet. We're really not trying to tear you down. As much as you might think that,

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I don't want to remove your faith. I want you to place your faith and your trust in the one true and living

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God. Not a God who was a man before and many men can become gods after Him.

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This is foreign to the Scriptures. You've got to look at this. This is a fundamental difference.

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The early Christians believed that it was possible to become gods.

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Are you talking about Theosis? Well, actually, I'm not sure if that was his name.

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It might have been someone else. It sounds familiar, but I'm not sure. That's not the name of a church father. That's a doctor.

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The one you're talking about is what's called Apotheosis. Dallin H. Oaks actually talks about that in his talk about the apostasy.

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Early Christians didn't teach that. They had what was called Theosis, which is partaking in the divine nature, but that's being united with Christ as the church being

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His bride, and then Himself being the bride. It's different than eternal progression. That's not talking about divinization, becoming a god or becoming like God.

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That's Apotheosis, and Dallin H. Oaks acknowledged that. But if you go to the Eastern Orthodox, they'll talk about Theosis.

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They'll have a totally different understanding of what he thinks that is. So, gently, my name's

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Craig, by the way. Hi. I would just say, do some digging into church history there, because what you've maybe just been misled to believe is that that actually doesn't match up with church history.

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Members frequently call it Theosis, but Dallin H. Oaks actually rightly calls it Apotheosis.

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The problem is, early church fathers ... My name is Wade, by the way.

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That's Dusty. What's your name? Deoni. Nice to meet you.

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It's important for us, this isn't like a comfortable thing for us.

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I imagine not. You've done it before. It's out of a great love for God and the truth that we challenge you, and I would say that if you have a great love for God as you shared with us, that you're going to look at these scriptures and be a

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Berean and study them, but I think we've demonstrated to you clearly, and you've even admitted that there are works that you must get to exaltation, but the

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Bible doesn't teach that consistently throughout. It teaches about salvation, and we in the

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints have the doctrine of exaltation. ... ... So that contradicts the

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Word. That's what we're concerned about. Even the exaltation, it contradicts what the scriptures say.

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There's no scriptures in the Bible that say that you will become a God one day through your works.

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The scriptures clearly state that you will be saved by faith in Christ alone.

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It's not to become a God. It's that we might enjoy God and worship Him forever.

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That God is Creator and we are creature. There's no becoming like Him.

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... ... ... ... ...

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... ... ... ... ... Wouldn't He know of other gods if there were?

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And He says, I know not one. How is Elohim unaware of other men who have exalted?

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... ... ...

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... ... ... ... How do you know they're the recordings of God?

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How can you test that? What if a

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Muslim has had the Spirit of God witness to him that they aren't the Word of God? I think that people's perceptions and understandings of this life are very limited, and people might have various experiences with divinity, and I think

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God allows that, because not everyone is prepared to receive everything that he has to offer them.

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And so, it's possible that someone feels, you know, a connection to divinity from this religion, but it's possible that they only feel that, or they feel that connection because there is goodness in that religion, but it's not the fullness of the truth.

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You know what's interesting, though, is what you're saying is that the

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Scripture that the Prophets, the Scripture that they've come up with, the things that they've spoken, versus what the

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Bible says, when they contradict, you're saying the Prophets are correct, the

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Scriptures are incorrect, or that they're expanding on what the Scriptures say, they're expanding.

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However, the Scriptures are clear on how one is saved, who God is, they don't need clarification.

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But when we say, my feelings, I've prayed about it, my feelings, what you're saying is that I get to determine which one is right, which one is wrong, and that something outside of me is not determining an absolute truth.

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I'm saying something within me is determining what truth is. Because what if you're the one who's misled and the

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Muslim is correct? Sure. In that case, in the

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Godhead. I actually gained my testimony. One being actually, three persons, yeah. I gained my testimony about the separateness of the three beings of God.

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The hearts of praying to the Father. There are definitely three different persons in Israel.

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Jesus to himself as God. Hero Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

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Right. I just don't think that Jesus was praying to himself. You're right. Of course he wasn't. Right. So. That's why we believe the doctrine of the

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Trinity. I'm so sorry. My friend has been waiting for me. Oh, dear. Yeah. Well, thank you.

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No, yeah, we appreciate you taking your time with us. If you ever have any questions, we have a number there.

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I know, you know, you probably don't want to, but these are serious things to consider.

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I haven't considered them. I don't think you fully have. You need to repent and put your faith in the true

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God. We can't become gods, but there's only one God. And there's not multiple ways to heaven and multiple truths.

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There's one truth. There's one Christ. And it's only his work alone to get there. This has led you astray.

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I appreciate your faith in Christ and your determination to try. All right.