September 1, 2017 Show with David J. Engelsma on “The Gospel Truth of Justification: Proclaimed, Defended, Developed”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this first day of September 2017.

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I'm so delighted and honored that we have a returning guest today who has really become one of my favorite guests to interview.

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His name is David J. Engelsma and he is an author. He's a professor of dogmatics and Old Testament studies for 20 years at Protestant Reform Seminary in Granville, Michigan and emeritus professor since the synod of 2008.

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He's the editor of the Standard Bearer magazine between 1988 and 2002 and a lecturer and preacher touring in North America and throughout the

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British Isles on behalf of the British Reformed Fellowship which is devoted to spread and defend the

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Reformed faith in the United Kingdom. Today, Professor David J. Engelsma is going to be addressing his new book, hot off the press,

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The Gospel Truth of Justification, Proclaimed, Defended and Developed.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Professor David J. Engelsma.

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It's good to be back with you and to have a part in your important witness to Calvinism on your radio program.

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Well, I also might add that the Reformed Witness Hour, which is one of the oldest radio programs, one of the oldest

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Christian radio programs, still airing on the radio.

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This Reformed Witness Hour program is actually a client of mine. I have them placed on one station out on Long Island, New York, WLIE 540

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AM in Ronkonkoma, Long Island, New York, which actually reaches the entire tri -state area of New York, New Jersey and Connecticut and even gets into parts of Rhode Island and Massachusetts and Pennsylvania.

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So, it's got quite a coverage and they air every Sunday morning on WLIE. And do you have anything further to say about the

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Reformed Witness Hour? Dr. Professor Engelsma, anything further to say about the

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Reformed Witness Hour? The Reformed Witness Hour has been a witness, as you said, of the

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Protestant Reformed Churches for many years. Its original speaker was the man whom

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God used to found the Protestant Reformed Churches, Herman Hoeksema, an outstanding theologian in his own right and a man who stood for the doctrines of grace in an uncompromising way.

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He was also my professor for three years in the seminary. I had the privilege to study under him and to be prepared for the ministry by his instruction.

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So, I got to know that man and to esteem that man highly through my studies under him.

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Yes, it's, I believe, at least 75 years of continual broadcasting for the

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Reformed Witness Hour. If anybody wants to get more information on that program, you can go to reformedwitnesshour .org,

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reformedwitnesshour .org. I just have to read, I know some people are going to accuse me of bragging, but I have to read your commendation for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, since it's one of the the most wonderful commendations

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I have ever received. I rank your commendation up there with some of the more notable names, such as R .C.

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Sproul and John MacArthur and others, but your commendation says, a good interview, in my judgment, demands questions that enable one to speak about various aspects of the

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Christian and Reformed gospel of salvation by the grace of God and Jesus Christ, its content and its history, as well as the calling of true churches and faithful witnesses in our day to contend for it.

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For such an interview, an interviewer is required who both knows the gospel of grace, its content, history, and present struggles, and loves this gospel of sovereign grace.

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The questions have to be knowing, pointed, and substantial. These demands are met by Chris Arnzen and the program

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Iron Sharpens Iron. I admit that until I became aware of Chris and his program, it never entered my mind that such a program and such a radio host existed or could exist in our godless and religiously bland age.

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And then, with such a large, far -flung audience, interviews are discussions about the

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Word of God, including the history of its making, its way in the world, with a fellow believer, an exacting, discerning fellow believer, but a friend in Christ, Jesus.

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The main thing is that the Word of God goes out into the world. And that was, as I said, Professor David J.

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Engelsma, Professor of Theology Emeritus, retired at Protestant Reformed Seminary in Granville, Michigan.

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I really thank you from the bottom of my heart for that wonderful commendation, which I am honored, I was honored to have my webmaster post on our website.

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And it touches me beyond words, brother, and I really appreciate it.

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Well, this book that you have written, The Gospel Truth of Justification, Proclaimed, Defended, and Developed, there are other books, as you well know, both from the past and the present, by both great heroes of the faith and contemporary brethren in Christ who have written on this issue of justification.

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What was lacking in these volumes that you believe required a new book on The Gospel Truth of Justification?

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I began writing the book with the idea that I would enter into controversy with what

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I regard to be the most serious attack upon the gospel of grace recovered by the

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Reformation since the time of the Reformation. There is at least a threefold attack upon the gospel truth of justification by faith alone going on at the present time.

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There's a movement known as the Federal Vision in North America, which movement has influenced adversely some of the most conservative

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Presbyterian and Reformed churches, seminaries, and other institutions in North America.

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There is a movement known as the New Perspective on Paul, which is based in Europe and is associated for evangelicals with the name of N .T.

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Wright, who has a very popular and influential movement. And there is an ecumenical movement going on in all the world,

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I guess, which calls itself Evangelicals and Catholics Together, and which is headed by such men as Chuck Colson and J .I.

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Packer. And the purpose and effect of all three of these movements, theological and ecclesiastical movements, is a denial or perversion of the fundamental gospel truth of justification by faith alone, the truth that was at the heart of the

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Protestant Reformation that we ought to be celebrating in our day. I was going to contend with this threefold attack upon justification by faith alone, but as I began writing the book, the conviction prevailed in me that what the church needs today is a thorough, systematic explanation, proclamation, and defense of the truth of justification by faith alone.

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So I changed my purpose and wrote a book that I consider to be exactly that, an explanation and defense of justification by faith alone in a thorough and systematic way, treating every conceivable aspect of the truth of justification, or at least every aspect that came to my mind from the reading of Scripture and from the

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Confessions. And that's what this book is. It's thorough and systematic.

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The treatment of justification, as I am not aware, was done even by the

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Reformers themselves. They, of course, taught justification but in connection with other subjects, and they did that, as far as I know, not in a systematic and thorough way.

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And frankly, although I suppose that my reading of theological works does not suffer too badly with the reading of others,

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I'm not aware of a similar work by Reformed and Presbyterian men today.

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There are other works on justification, other defenses of justification. I'm glad about that, but I'm not aware of a work that treats of the whole grand subject of justification thoroughly and systematically.

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Yeah, well, this is quite a massive volume that you have written here.

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It's 528 pages, and I already know that we're going to have to have you back,

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God willing, at least a couple more times, hopefully even within Reformation Month in October, to deal with some of the aspects of what you've written that we will not have time to address today just because of the sheer volume of what you have written here.

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And I thank you for taking such time and effort into writing such a large volume on such a vital topic, a topic that sadly seems to be not near the top of the ladder of importance, even amongst some who profess to be theologically

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Reformed today. In fact, J .I. Packer, who is a hero to many, whose books, many of his books are absolutely superb, and then you cannot help but be baffled that he would have an ecumenical mindset with the

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Church of Rome, which would in reality be in stark contrast, 180 degrees contrast, to much of the core things that he writes about.

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It doesn't make any sense to me. That fact that you have just mentioned concerning the present posture of J .I.

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Packer with regard to justification by faith alone is one of the more sad happenings in the

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Church world as far as I am concerned. Packer's introduction to his translation of Luther's Bondage of the

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Will, a long introduction, is one of the most superb, gripping explanations and defense of justification by faith alone and salvation by grace alone that I know of, and that he allowed himself to be part of the movement, evangelicals and Catholics together, is, as you say, baffling, but it's also indicative of the state of the true

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Church of Jesus Christ in our day. If we are not in the period that 2 Thessalonians 2 refers to as the great falling away that precedes the coming of the

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Antichrist, we are in a period of apostasy that outstrips anything that the

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Church has known since the time of the Reformation for certainty. Packer justifies his cooperation with the

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Roman Catholic Church, or at least with Roman Catholic theologians, which consists of a statement that we are justified by faith, purposely leaving out the word alone, which as Luther and others have instructed us was basic to the

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Reformation's recovery of grace. Packer justifies the omission of the word only by the statement that we are saved by Jesus Christ and not by our theological formulations.

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But even in that statement he betrays the gospel, for the fact is we are not saved by Jesus Christ, period.

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We are saved by Jesus Christ alone. We are not saved by Jesus Christ plus the good works of the sinner, or by Jesus Christ plus adoration of the

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Virgin Mary, or by Jesus Christ plus indulgences. We are saved by Jesus Christ alone, and that's the truth that justification by faith alone wants to acknowledge.

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So that surrender of the gospel truth of justification by faith alone on the part of J.

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I. Packer, the outstanding theologian in the past in the

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Anglican Church defending the historic Christian gospel, is indicative of the state of the church today.

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And that supports what you said earlier that there are many professing Christians, I'm afraid even professing

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Protestant Christians, who would minimize the importance of a defense of justification by faith alone as I intended to do in my book.

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Yes, I believe that from what I recall when the Evangelicals and Catholics Together document first came out, which was quite a while ago,

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I believe it was in the 1990s if I'm not mistaken, but I can remember that some of Dr.

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Packer's friends, I believe Michael Horton and R .C. Sproul and some others who had shared with him their serious disagreement with him over his ecumenical action in signing this document.

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I believe that he had some kind of a retraction to what he did, but then wound up signing the sequel document of the

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Evangelicals and Catholics Together anyway, and so the whole matter was totally baffling to me, and still is.

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Well, I think it might be wise for us to start off with a definition of justification because the word is used in different ways in the scriptures, and as you very well know that there are some who will run to the book of James, James's epistle, and refer to James's use of the word justification that is not by faith alone, and it must be therefore a different kind of a justification other than the justification that God in his grace and mercy provides for his people on the basis of faith alone, but if you could please define justification and its different uses.

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The basic simple definition of justification as taught by the Apostle Paul in Romans, especially chapters 3 through 5, and in the book of Galatians, justification is

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God's imputation, which is the same as God's legal reckoning or accounting, the obedience of Jesus Christ to the elect believer by means alone of the believer's faith in Jesus Christ.

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Justification is a legal act, the act of God as judge reckoning or imputing to the account of the sinner the obedience of Christ, which obedience is twofold, his so -called passive obedience, the suffering of the punishment due to our sins, and the so -called active obedience of perfectly carrying out the will of his heavenly father in all his life, but especially at the end of his life in his atoning sufferings to our account, which thus makes

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Christ and his obedience ours in reality, so that the justified sinner, even though he remains a sinner,

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Luther gave expression to that truth in the Latin phrase simul justus simul peccator, at the same time righteous and sinner, righteous legally and a actuality with regard to our nature and with regard to our behavior, but as I say, the complete righteousness of Jesus Christ is ours, truly ours, as though we ourselves had never sinned and had or had perfectly paid for our sins to the justice of God.

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That's what justification is in Romans and Galatians, that's what justification was in the confession of the

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Reformation in the 16th century, and that's what justification is in the

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Reformed and Presbyterian creeds. Now as I said earlier, the Roman Catholics and perhaps some of the cults and others that deny the

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Reformation principle or watchword of sola fide, that we are justified by faith alone or by grace alone through faith alone, they will refer to James chapter 2 verse 24, you see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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What on earth is James talking about there or what did he write about there? I have an entire chapter in the book carefully explaining that matter of the harmonization of Paul and of James, and that enables me to say something that I neglected to say when you were asking about the book.

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The book is not written for theologians. When I was writing the book I had in mind the Reformed, Presbyterian, and indeed

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Protestant, believing man, believing young woman, or believing young person.

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I don't shy away from biblical concepts of course, the book has much biblical explanation, but I'm writing not so much for the theologian, most of them are hopeless anyway, but I'm writing for the benefit of confessing

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Protestant believers who are being deceived and led astray and professing

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Christians who go wrong on justification in such a way that they depend upon their own works for their righteousness with God are going to be damned.

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That's how serious the matter is. But now with regard to your question about justification in Paul and in James, I start with the conviction that the

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Bible is not contradictory. The Bible is the one harmonious word of God. James does not and James cannot, under the inspiration of the

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Holy Spirit, contradict Paul's teaching. Paul very definitely in Romans and Galatians is teaching forensic or judicial or legal righteousness.

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All the words in those passages indicate that, account and reckon and impute, those are legal terms.

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Impute, for example, is different from infuse. Paul is speaking of the act of God by which the sinner becomes righteous before God according to the standard of God's own righteousness as expressed in his law.

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And about justification in that sense, the Apostle says by faith and both in Romans and Galatians, he is at pains under the inspiration of the

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Holy Spirit to deny in the very same sentence and not by works, not by works of the law.

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Romans 3 verse 28 is a critically important text in that regard.

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We conclude that a man is justified by faith without or apart from the deeds of the law.

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So our works, our good works even, that we do by the

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Holy Spirit within us do not constitute us righteous with God in that legal sense.

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Our works are not part of our righteousness with God in the sense of a righteousness that accords with and satisfies the justice of God in his law.

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James does not and cannot contradict that truth of Paul in Romans and Galatians.

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James, by justification, has in view a radically different aspect of justification.

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James is talking about the demonstration of justification to others and even the demonstration or manifesting of our righteousness to God himself before whom we live.

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And James shows that that's that aspect of justification to which he is referring and about which he is speaking.

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Because in James 2, which is the passage that we're talking about now, James says, show me your faith without your works.

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Show me, demonstrate that. And that, of course, can't be done. The faith by which

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I am justified can only demonstrate its reality by the works that that faith performs.

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So James is concerned with demonstrating or showing justification.

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And in that sense, we are justified by our works. That is, our works justify us demonstratively, not legally, not forensically, not with regard to our legal position before God the judge of all, but with regard to our showing the reality of our righteousness and of our faith to others.

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In that sense, Abraham was justified by works and Rahab the harlot was justified by works, not in the sense that they became righteous before God by their works or on the basis of their works, but in the sense that they demonstrated their justification.

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The error of Rome, as also the error of the federal vision in North America today, of the new perspective on Paul in Europe, and of the false ecumenicity of evangelicals and Catholics together, is that they teach that Paul and James have two different kinds of works in view.

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As though Paul is denying that we are justified by the ceremonial and Judaic works of the

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Old Testament, and James is referring to works in the sense of the truly good works that the child of God performs.

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James, therefore, is teaching justification by faith and by the good works of the child of God, exactly the doctrine that the

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Reformation denied. The truth of the matter is, and this has been the position of Calvin, of Luther himself, and of the

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Reformed and Calvinistic churches down the ages, Paul and James have two different aspects of justification in mind.

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They're not talking about two different kinds of works, they're talking about two, if I may put it that way, two different kinds of justification.

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Paul is talking about the justification as an act of God that constitutes the sinner righteous on the basis of the obedience of Christ.

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James is referring to justification with regard to the demonstration of justification to others.

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Yes, well, just like you have in 1 Timothy 2 .15,

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the King James Version of the Bible says, Notwithstanding she, the woman, shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

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Obviously, even the Church of Rome does not believe that are saved spiritually or made worthy of heaven because they have babies.

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This is obviously a different kind of salvation or saving that is being referred to here. This is basically the same thing that's going on with the term justification that you are referring to.

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I think that's correct. And we're actually going to our first break right now.

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If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Professor David J. Engelsma, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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Suppose, let's say that you disagree with your own pastor on this issue or your own spouse or something and you'd rather not draw attention to yourself publicly.

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We understand that, but otherwise, please give us at least your first name, city and state and country of residence.

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Well, don't go away. God willing, we will be right back after these messages with David J. Engelsma and our discussion on justification.

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32:38

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned into the program today, our guest today for the full two hours with just about 90 minutes to go is

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Professor David J. Engelsma, who is the author of Gospel Truth of Justification, Proclaimed, Defended, and Developed, a 525 -page work published by the

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Reformed Free Publishing Association, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com, and please give us, as always, your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

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USA, and only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private question. We already have a number of folks eagerly waiting to have their questions asked and answered, but before I get to them,

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I just wanted you to make a couple of clarifications, Professor Engelsma.

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The doctrine of justification by faith alone has been abused by those who profess to be

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Protestant or Evangelicals, and it has also been distorted, twisted, and slandered and caricatured by the

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Church of Rome. You have, on the one hand, Evangelicals who will say, well, yeah,

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I believe it's very true, in fact, it's a core essential truth of Christian theology that we are justified by faith alone, and therefore all

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I need to do is respond to an invitation at either a worship service or some kind of a revival meeting or a gathering of Christians who are there worshiping and hearing the

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Word preached. All I need to do is respond to an invitation, recite a prayer, welcome

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Jesus into my heart, and therefore, no matter how I live for the rest of my life,

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I could immediately walk out of that meeting, that worship service, and continue on in my life just as I lived before going to that meeting, and could live like the devil himself for decades until I die, but I have nothing to fear because I will be going to heaven.

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That's the one extreme of the heresy of easy believism or cheap grace that exists amongst

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Evangelicals. If you could respond how the doctrine of justification by faith alone has nothing to do with that heresy that I just mentioned.

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The first thing I would say in response to such demonic speech on the part of those who

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I imagine suppose themselves to be saved Christians would be that they don't have faith.

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Faith is not an emotional decision or walking to the front or any such thing.

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Faith is two -fold. True faith, saving faith is two -fold. As the Heidelberg Catechism, the

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Reformed Creed has described it. First, faith is a knowledge of God as revealed in his

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Word, and second, faith is the confidence of heart, putting one's trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

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That's radically different from the pseudo -faith, the emotional experience of the kind of pseudo -Christian that you have described.

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In the second place, with regard to the abuse of justification by faith alone, it mustn't surprise us that there is that abuse of it and the wicked response to the truth of justification by faith alone that you have described.

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Paul imagined or recognized that that would be the response to the doctrine of justification that he was setting forth, especially in Romans 3 through 5.

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He has an imaginary responder say, thou wilt say, he puts in the mouth of that person, thou wilt say then let us sin that grace may abound.

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That's basically the same response to the truth of justification by faith alone that says,

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I have faith and therefore I may live like the devil. And the response of the

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Apostle, and this is an extremely important point to notice, the response of the

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Apostle to that abuse of the doctrine of justification by faith alone that applies it to a godless life, the freedom to live a godless life, is not that the

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Apostle modifies or weakens the truth of justification by faith alone that he has been teaching.

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The Apostle does not respond to that application of the doctrine, false application of the doctrine, by saying, oh my, people are going to abuse this doctrine,

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I'd better retrench what I've said, I'd better qualify and modify and weaken what

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I've taught and begin teaching that our good works are after all conditions for our salvation and part of our righteousness with God.

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He does no such thing. In fact, as anyone who reads the book of Romans can discover for himself, the

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Apostle goes on to ground justification by faith alone in God's eternal unconditional election in Romans 8 and chapters 8 and 9.

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So he doubles down, so to say, on the truth of salvation by grace alone.

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And in the third place, the response of Scripture to that abuse of the doctrine of justification by faith alone is in Romans chapter 6.

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It is impossible for a genuine believer to respond the way the antinomian that you described responds.

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When God saves us by justifying us, he unites us to Jesus Christ by that faith by which we are justified.

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And that true faith is a bond that unites us to Christ, brings us Christ himself into our hearts by the

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Holy Spirit. And Jesus Christ controls us so that our response to justification by faith alone is thankfulness, which motivates us to devote ourselves to obeying the law of God out of gratitude and to serving

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God and to resisting our corrupt nature and resisting the temptations of the world.

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My response to the one who abuses the truth of justification by faith alone is what you say is an impossibility.

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God is a complete savior. He not only justifies, he also sanctifies. And that touches on a controversy that's found in some circles with regard to the lordship of Jesus Christ, whether that's necessary or not.

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Whomever Jesus Christ saves by justifying, he also sanctifies by being the lord of their life.

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And if one does not live a sanctified life, if he goes on impenitently in sin, the explanation is that he never possessed true faith.

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He never did believe in Jesus Christ and never was justified. Yes, that would be involved in the perseverance and preservation of the saints, would it not?

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One of the cardinal doctrines of reformed theology. That's correct.

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When Jesus begins a good work in us, he finishes it, even to the world's last day, preserves us in the salvation that he has begun in us.

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Now, before I go on to the Roman counterpart with the other opposite enemy of the the true doctrine of justification by faith alone, there is some confusion that may arise from that phrase, justification by faith alone, because people may actually believe that something that man conjures up in his heart and mind, meaning or being faith, that faith is saving them when we who are reformed believe that God is the one who saves.

41:23

God alone saves us. The blood of Christ shed on Calvary is the only way that we can be saved.

41:31

So how can we kind of do damage control here about the confusion that may arise because of that language that we use, justification by faith alone?

41:45

When Paul preaches justification by means of faith, and that's the meaning of the

41:53

Greek preposition translated by in the authorized or King James Version, we are righteous by means of faith alone.

42:03

He teaches that our salvation is Jesus Christ himself and all the benefits of salvation that are in Jesus Christ.

42:15

The activity of faith as an activity does not save us, does not justify us, but faith is a means or instrument through which we receive

42:30

Jesus Christ and the benefits of salvation. So the fear of the one that you have referred to, the fear that you have described, is indeed a misunderstanding and no preacher or teacher of the gospel ought ever to leave his audience with such a misunderstanding.

42:50

In close connection with that misunderstanding or even grievous error is the teaching of the

42:57

Armenians, with which the world unfortunately is flooded today, the teaching of the

43:04

Armenians that the meaning of salvation by faith is that God accepts faith itself, the activity of believing on the part of a human being, as his righteousness with God.

43:21

Our activity of believing does not satisfy the justice of God.

43:27

Our activity of believing is not instead of paying the penalty that our sins deserve.

43:35

Our activity of believing is not the perfect obedience to the law of God that the just God demands of us.

43:43

Faith is the instrument by which we receive the obedience of Jesus Christ as our own and in fact

43:52

Jesus Christ himself with his benefits as our savior. That misunderstanding ought to be cleared up every time a minister of the gospel preaches or teaches justification by faith alone.

44:07

It's by means of that faith, faith instrumentally. And then we have the

44:13

Church of Rome who says well your concept of justification is no more than a legal fiction.

44:21

It is fairy tales. It's God actually demonstrating a lack of justice because he is pretending that we who come before his throne just because we have believed in him are just as holy as Christ.

44:40

It has been attributed to Luther that justification is like a mountain of dung covered with snow, although I've heard that there is no clear proof that Luther wrote that so I'm not sure if that is a genuine analogy that Luther gave or not.

45:01

But they will just mock this idea saying that there is no true reason that God is inviting us into eternal glory with him other than some kind of a of a false declaration that we are just as good as Jesus.

45:27

I have never come across that vivid saying in Luther that is attributed to him about a mountain of dung covered by snow.

45:36

Now I wouldn't put it past Luther because he was one of the most expressive and blunt and sometimes even vulgar theologians that the world has ever seen and that was part of his power.

45:50

But I have never come across that saying and I wouldn't accept it as a statement by Luther unless somebody showed me chapter and verse.

45:58

In the second place with regard to that matter of Rome's charge of a legal fiction that is a common

46:05

Roman disparagement and rejection of the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone.

46:13

But by that charge of a legal fiction, Rome betrays its most egregious heresy and wickedness.

46:25

By that charge against justification by faith alone, Rome acknowledges that the only righteousness of a sinner that it will accept as real is the sinner's own good works.

46:38

For Rome, that the righteousness of Christ should become ours constitutes a legal fiction.

46:47

That implies then that reality is that I perform and accomplish righteousness by my own good works.

46:57

And that brings out the stark contrast between Roman soteriology and historic creedal

47:04

Protestant orthodoxy. The truth of the matter is this,

47:11

Jesus Christ was appointed as the head and representative and substitute of God's chosen people so that when

47:25

Jesus Christ obeyed the law of God perfectly, he obeyed it for us. And when

47:32

Jesus Christ suffered the penalty of the infinite, eternal wrath of God, especially on the cross, he was enduring and suffering that penalty and punishment for us.

47:45

When then God bestows the obedience of Christ upon us through faith, that obedience is ours.

48:00

And by faith becomes ours as really as if I had myself obeyed the law of God perfectly and never disobeyed in any respect.

48:12

And as much as if I had been able myself to hang on a cross for six hours and bear the infinite wrath of God, justification is no legal fiction.

48:25

Justification is legal reality. The only fiction in the matter of justification is the sorry notion of sinners that they can accomplish a righteousness with God by themselves and a righteousness that has its origin in them themselves.

48:45

That's fictitious. And if they don't find that out in this life, they're going to find that out at the moment of death and in the great judgment.

48:53

All self -righteousness is fictitious because it doesn't satisfy the justice of God.

49:05

Even the good works that we perform are all defiled with sin. How can that be righteousness with the holy

49:11

God? To claim that is to be fictitious. Now, of course, you will have many

49:18

Roman Catholics say, well, thank goodness I don't trust in my own righteousness to get into heaven because I'm also trusting in the righteousness of Mary and the saints and all that righteousness there for me and the treasury of merit.

49:33

And therefore, it's not just my righteousness. But when you mingle any human's righteousness, whether living or dead, whether saint or sinner, any of the righteousness of mankind cannot be mingled with Christ's perfect act of redemption on Calvary.

49:53

Am I right? That's correct. The obedience of Mary was by grace alone, and she defiled all her best works.

50:02

But besides that, and this strikes at the heart of Roman Catholic doctrines of salvation,

50:08

God never appointed Mary to be the righteousness of others. And 1 Corinthians 1 teaches that Christ is our righteousness.

50:15

Jesus Christ alone is our righteousness. God appointed him. He was uniquely qualified because he was

50:22

God and man in one person, perfectly holy as a person, not himself liable to fulfill the righteousness of God, but qualified and appointed by God to attain the righteousness of the huge host of elect sinners whom

50:45

God had appointed to be his people. Christ is our righteousness.

50:51

No one else. And we have a listener in eastern

50:56

Suffolk County, Long Island named Ronald. And Ronald asks, cannot a person believe in the true biblical facts about Jesus Christ, and even theologically in his gospel, and yet still be damned?

51:20

That's a rare thing. But the Reformed faith and Protestant Christianity, so far as I know, has recognized something similar to what your questioner proposes, and has called it historical faith.

51:38

That is, one's mental acquiescence to the facts of the

51:44

Bible, and even to the truths of the gospel, but without a knowledge of those truths of faith in the heart that trembles at those truths, and receives those truths as the inspired gospel of Jesus Christ, and certainly without placing his confidence in the

52:13

Jesus revealed by those truths for his salvation. So I would grant that there is that possibility.

52:22

Doesn't James say that even the devils believe and tremble?

52:29

James is striking out at something like that kind of professed faith.

52:36

The devils believe the facts that there is a God, that God is the Father of Jesus Christ.

52:43

But there's no hearty confidence in those truths, no humbling of themselves by virtue of those truths, and no trusting in the

52:54

Christ revealed by those truths for salvation. So we ought to guard against a historical faith and the membership in our churches as well.

53:05

Yes, that is typically called mental assent. You could have a theologian, you might even be a brilliant liberal theologian, who is honest enough to explain the data of the

53:24

Bible in the way that it was intended to be received, and he may accurately define what the

53:32

Bible teaches about all kinds of doctrines, including the doctrine of God, the doctrine of man, and the gospel, and so on.

53:39

But this person could be as dead as a doornail, he could be as lost as could be, but he's just a brilliant man who knows the scriptures by heart, and knows what they teach.

53:53

That's the kind of person that I think your questioner had in view, and they certainly are a blot on the landscape of the church.

54:04

Yeah, and then we have the very terrifying warning in Matthew chapter 7, where you know you're going to have people totally baffled on the day of judgment why they are being condemned, because they've performed all kinds of exorcisms and works and miracles in the name of Christ, and yet Christ still says, be gone you workers of unrighteousness,

54:30

I never knew you. Yes. Well, we have to go to a break right now, this is our midway break, it's a bit longer than our normal breaks, because we have to keep in the format that Grace Life Radio 90 .1

54:43

FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us to have two 54 -minute segments for the show.

54:50

So we hope that you are patient while we take this rather elongated break, but if you could, if you intend to write in questions, write them in now, send them in now to chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

55:03

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com, and we'll get to as many of you as we can, as many as time will permit.

55:12

And we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Professor David J. Engelsma right after these messages, so please don't go away.

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01:02:53

Welcome back. This is Chris Arms, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about an hour to go is

01:03:02

Professor David J. Engelsma, and we are discussing his book, Gospel Truth of Justification, Proclaimed, Defended, Developed, a publication of Reformed Free Publishing.

01:03:20

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen .com.

01:03:31

If you have a question for Professor Engelsma regarding this topic, and please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter, but otherwise, give us your first name, at least city and state, and country of residence.

01:03:44

Before I return to our discussion, there are just a couple of, or a few,

01:03:49

I should say, important announcements regarding special events that we need to announce. The Word of Truth Church of Farmingville, Long Island, New York, in cooperation with the

01:04:00

Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship, present the Gospel of the Reformation, a 500th anniversary celebration, featuring keynote speaker

01:04:08

Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary. This will be held on Friday, September 29th, and Saturday, September 30th.

01:04:17

If you would like to attend this celebration, go to wotchurch .com,

01:04:23

W -O -T standing for Word of Truth Church .com, wotchurch .com, or call 631 -806 -0614, 631 -806 -0614.

01:04:36

The very following day, on Sunday, October 1st, Dr. Tony Costa will also be speaking at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York, and if you would like to attend that Sunday morning worship service at 11, go to hopereformedli .net

01:04:53

for more details, hopereformedli, for Long Island, dot net, or you could call 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711.

01:05:07

Following that, we have coming up in November, from the 17th through the 18th, the

01:05:13

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is holding their annual Quakertown Conference on Reformed Theology at the

01:05:20

Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania. The theme is For Still Our Ancient Foe, obviously a reference to Satan from that classic

01:05:29

Reformation hymn by Martin Luther, A Mighty Fortress, and the speakers include

01:05:34

Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant. If you would like to register for this conference, go to alliancenet .org,

01:05:45

alliancenet .org, click on events, and then click on Quakertown Conference on Reformed Theology, and I plan to be there with an

01:05:52

Iron Trip and Zion Exhibitors booth, so I hope to see you there. And then, coming up in January, from the 17th through the 20th, the

01:06:00

G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia. I intend to be there as well with an

01:06:06

Iron Trip and Zion Exhibitors booth, God willing, and the theme is Knowing God, a

01:06:11

Biblical Understanding of Discipleship, and speakers include Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B.

01:06:19

Charles, Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and Martha Peace.

01:06:29

If you'd like to go to G3 Conference, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com, and if you're registering for any of these events or just finding out more information about them, please always tell the churches or ministries running these events that you heard about those activities from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

01:06:49

And last but not least comes my most uncomfortable time of the program, and that is to beg you for money.

01:06:56

The advertisers that keep Iron Trip and Zion Radio on the air have urged me for a long time to make daily public appeals for donations because of the urgent need for them.

01:07:09

I finally acquiesced a couple of months ago and caved in and started to do so out of respect for them and in gratitude for the hard -earned money that they spend keeping

01:07:21

Iron Trip and Zion on the air. If you are blessed above and beyond your ability to provide for your church as you always have been, and hopefully you are a member of a bible -believing church, and hopefully you are obeying

01:07:34

God and supporting that church financially, and if you are blessed above and beyond your ability to provide for your family, then please consider a blessing

01:07:44

Iron Trip and Zion Radio financially. If indeed you love this program, you listen to it every day, you find it edifying, please just go to irontripandzionradio .com,

01:07:53

click on support, and you'll be given an address where you can mail check made payable to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

01:07:59

We look forward to receiving checks of any amount that you can afford. Remember, never ever ever siphon money out of your regular giving to your local church, and never take food off of your family's dinner table.

01:08:10

Those two things are commands of God providing for your church and home. Iron Trip and Zion Radio's funding is not a command of God, but if you are indeed blessed enough to obey those two commands of God and still have enough left over to bless other ministries and organizations and things such as Iron Trip and Zion Radio, then please prayerfully consider helping us remain on the air, because times are very desperate in regard to finances, and I cannot say with certainty that we could remain on the air another year if donations don't start coming in.

01:08:47

I don't even know if we could remain on the air for another six months to tell you the truth. But if you'd like to advertise with us as well, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:08:56

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put advertising in the subject line, and if whatever it is you want to promote is compatible with the theology expressed on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, I would be more than happy to discuss an advertising campaign with you, whether it's a church, a parachurch ministry, a business corporation, professional practice, or special event, as long as it's compatible with the theology of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

01:09:19

It doesn't have to be identical, but it does have to be compatible and not in contradiction to the theology we express.

01:09:26

I would love to speak with you about an advertising campaign as soon as possible. In fact, I would be most grateful to God and to you for this assistance.

01:09:36

Well, now we are back to our discussion with Professor David J. Engelsma on The Gospel Truth of Justification, Proclaimed, Defended, and Developed.

01:09:46

This is also a 525 -page book by Professor Engelsma, published by Reformed Free Publishing Association, and I forgot to mention before we went to the break to Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, you have won a free copy of The Gospel Truth of Justification, so please make sure that you give to us your full mailing address so we can have

01:10:10

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service ship that out to you. CVBBS .com is the website of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, and we thank them for their faithful support of Iron Trip and Zion Radio and for mailing out all the winners in our audience free copies of Bibles and books and DVDs and CDs and other things that we give away to those submitting questions to our guests.

01:10:34

I'm going to go to some other... Oh, before I go to the questions, Professor Engelsma, I just wanted to make sure that we included in our publicizing special events the event that you are going to be speaking at, at the

01:10:50

Covenant Protestant Reformed Church in Northern Ireland. Could you tell us something about that? There is a sound

01:10:59

Reformed congregation in Bellarmina, Northern Ireland, holding forth the truths of the gospel of grace, and God has blessed that congregation with a very widespread audience in Great Britain, not only, but throughout

01:11:19

Europe. That congregation is sponsoring a

01:11:25

Reformation conference the end of October, in keeping with the 500th anniversary of the

01:11:35

Reformation that will be on October 21, 2017, and they have asked me to lecture twice on that Saturday at the conference.

01:11:48

One will be a speech on the topic of the question you asked concerning the harmony of James and Paul with regard to justification, and the other will be a more historical speech on the testimony of Martin Luther to the glory of God.

01:12:09

Often a distinction is made between Luther and Calvin, as though Luther emphasized justification by faith alone, and Calvin emphasized salvation to the glory of God.

01:12:24

I regard that distinction as a false distinction. Luther taught justification by faith alone and fought for it because he was determined to glorify

01:12:37

God in all his theology and preaching. In that connection, he made a lovely statement one time,

01:12:44

I can't help mentioning here, and that was that if he had perfect knowledge that he could gain heaven by lifting one piece of straw, he would not do that because then in heaven his being there would detract from the glory of God as the reason for his salvation.

01:13:09

And on the other hand, John Calvin taught the glory of God in salvation, and therefore the glory of God by justification by faith alone.

01:13:20

So I want to show from Luther's writings that Luther was a theologian of the glory of God.

01:13:27

I'll be speaking at that conference in Northern Ireland in October, and I'll stay there for several

01:13:33

Sundays to preach for that congregation as well. And if anybody wants more information, they can go to cprf .co

01:13:42

.uk. That's C -P -R -F standing for Covenant Protestant Reformed Church.

01:13:48

C -P -R -F. I'm actually not sure why there's an F there. C -P -R -F as in frank .co

01:13:54

.uk, and you'll have all the information you need about that congregation holding the conference.

01:14:00

All right, let me go to some of our other emails that we have from listeners right now.

01:14:07

And anybody else desiring to join us on the air can also just send it in as soon as possible to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:14:15

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And give us your first name, city, and state, and country of residence.

01:14:23

We have Chris in Runnels, Iowa. Thank you for having

01:14:29

Dr. Engelsma. Actually, you corrected me once before. You're not a doctor, but we'll call you professor.

01:14:35

Thank you for having

01:14:43

Professor Engelsma on today to discuss this important topic of justification. I am curious if he could address whether or to what extent a total lack of teaching on justification by faith alone for the past many years has opened up the church to many errors on justification.

01:15:02

For example, very few Christians could explain the difference between justification by faith alone and being justified on account of faith.

01:15:11

Thank you, Professor Engelsma, for writing this book, and as always, Chris, for an excellent show. Chris points out a reason for the apostasy of the churches on a large scale today.

01:15:28

The fundamental truths of the gospel are not being taught, much less defended, as God calls every minister of the gospel and every local church to do.

01:15:40

I agree with his observation that the truth of justification has not been taught as it ought to have been taught for years now, and still today is not being taught in many churches or defended against the errors that I have mentioned, and the result of that is that error creeps in.

01:16:02

If the truth is not taught, error will fill the vacuum. The devil will see to that, and churches are ignorant of such a matter as their own justification.

01:16:17

That's appalling, and a believer in such a church where the gospel is not preached, much less defended, ought to take it upon himself in the office of a believer, first of all to talk with his minister, and then if he doesn't get anywhere to lodge an official protest with the consistory of the church, and if there is no positive response to those actions of the believer, the believer for the sake of his own soul's salvation as well as for the glory of God in his confession and walk, should seek to affiliate himself with a church that shows the mark of a true church by preaching and teaching, among other truths, justification by faith alone.

01:17:06

Well, thank you, Chris, in Reynolds, Iowa. Please make sure that we have your full mailing address because you have also won a free copy of Gospel Truth of Justification, proclaimed, defended, and developed compliments of the

01:17:22

Reform Free Publishing Association, and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com,

01:17:32

CVBBS .com. We'll be shipping that out to you, and please keep spreading the word about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio there in Iowa and beyond.

01:17:44

We have a question from, let's see,

01:17:51

Joe, and I have to enlarge Joe's email because it's microscopic.

01:17:59

Joe's question from Clifton, New Jersey, and as I enlarge this email,

01:18:06

I'll once again repeat our email address for anybody else. It is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:18:12

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and always please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

01:18:21

USA. Okay, we have Joe in Clifton, New Jersey, Dear, again,

01:18:26

Dr. Engelsma, thank you for your stand for the truth of justification by faith alone in the midst of age -old errors that again and again resurface.

01:18:39

My question regards discernment. The lack of discernment in the church in our day is often astounding to me.

01:18:47

We know that God is sovereign over the ability to hear and receive truth, and yet we tend to think of unbelievers when considering that truth.

01:18:57

But can you share your view of lack of discernment among professing believers?

01:19:03

Is what we are seeing primarily an indication of the rarity of true regeneration, or is it that in God's providence there actually is a significant part of the true church that lacks discernment?

01:19:16

Or should we think about such glaring lack of discernment among professing believers?

01:19:22

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. What that questioner refers to, to my mind and in my judgment, is the frightening reality of apostasy in our day.

01:19:43

That is a falling away from the truth of the gospel on the part of churches that once confessed the truth of the gospel, and also on the part of members of the churches who claim to be

01:19:58

Christians. There is such a reality as apostasy.

01:20:05

This departure, which is doctrinal in nature, first of all. In 2

01:20:12

Timothy 2, the apostle speaks of those who do not love the truth.

01:20:20

They may have a certain knowledge of the truth, but they don't love it. They don't love it enough to know it, to know it distinctively, to know it as your attitude of love, to embrace it, to demand it from the preachers and the teachers, and never to let go of it for any reason, including their own life if need be.

01:20:47

The Bible does speak of apostasy. There was apostasy already within 50 or 60 years after the time of the apostles, as the letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor at the beginning of the book of Revelation make plain enough.

01:21:06

Speaking now in light of the Reformation, which we are celebrating the 500th anniversary of this year, what led up to the necessity of the

01:21:16

Reformation was this gross apostasy from the time of the apostles until the time of the

01:21:23

Reformation. First, there was ignorance of the truths of the gospel.

01:21:31

And where there is ignorance, there is also the reality, invariably, of the radical evil of false doctrine, so that the church began teaching and preaching false doctrine.

01:21:48

That same thing is happening today. What has happened to professing Protestant churches and Christians from the time of the

01:21:56

Reformation? I'm afraid there are going to be churches that see that date somewhere.

01:22:02

This is the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, and will make a show of celebrating that 500th anniversary when neither the office bearers nor the members know the first thing about the gospel that reformed the church in that the

01:22:17

Reformation was all about, and of justification by faith alone over against justification by faith and works, to be specific.

01:22:31

There has to be recognition of that grave danger of departure from the faith, of a falling away, and the individual members of the churches must take seriously their calling, as Luther took his calling seriously.

01:22:46

Stand for the truth. Defend the truth. Confess the truth. And if it means that members are cast out of departing or false churches, that must be the price they're willing to pay for defending the truth of the gospel.

01:23:03

It's Christ's gospel after all. We must know it. It's for our advantage to do that, but it's also for the glory of Jesus Christ, our

01:23:11

Savior, that we do this. Contend for the faith once given to the saints. Jude commands not just ministers, but all members of the churches.

01:23:21

And work in the congregation where the concerned believer finds himself or herself for a reformation of that particular congregation.

01:23:36

Well, thank you, Joey, in Clifton, New Jersey. And please make sure we have your full mailing address, because you have also won a free copy of Gospel Truth of Justification, published by the

01:23:48

Reformed Free Publishing Association. And that will be shipped out to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

01:23:55

So please make sure that you give us your full mailing address. And keep an eye open for a package in the mail with a return address on the shipping label that says cvbbs .com.

01:24:06

C -V for Cumberland Valley, B -B -S for Bible Book Service dot com. We have a questioner from Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania.

01:24:15

And you've already addressed this to a degree, but maybe you can elaborate on this.

01:24:21

Jenny asks, I am alarmed concerning N .T.

01:24:26

Wright's new definition of justification in his new perspective on Paul theory.

01:24:33

As far as I am concerned, it's heresy. Would you briefly tell the listening audience what is his new definition of justification, and why his view is closer to Roman Catholicism than Protestantism, which defeats the reason for the

01:24:49

Reformation? First of all, I appreciate the knowledge that this questioner obviously has concerning one of the gravest threats to Christianity and to the

01:25:05

Reformation in particular in our day. He mentions the new perspective on Paul as promoted by the so -called evangelical

01:25:15

Anglican N .T. Wright. N .T. Wright is promoting a theology, a doctrine, that radically redefines and actually destroys the biblical truth of justification by faith alone.

01:25:35

Wright and the new perspective on Paul teach that the Reformation got the biblical truth of justification completely wrong.

01:25:46

Justification, according to Wright, is not a saving act of God declaring the guilty sinner righteous and thus establishing the everlasting salvation of that sinner, but on the contrary, the new perspective on Paul teaches, and by the way, this theory had its origins in extremely liberal

01:26:11

German theologians. N .T. Wright, who is an Anglican clergyman, has picked that up from these liberal, that is unbelieving,

01:26:21

German theologians, including men by the name of Sanders and Dunn.

01:26:27

But according to the new perspective on Paul, the biblical teaching of justification is ecclesiological in character, not soteriological.

01:26:37

That means it has to do with membership in the church rather than with the act of salvation.

01:26:44

Justification, according to Wright and the others, is the mark that one has been made a member of the church by God.

01:26:59

One who confesses justification shows that he is a member of the church.

01:27:07

Notice that I left off the word alone because Wright and the new perspective on Paul deny that justification is by faith alone.

01:27:17

One who confesses faith in Jesus is justified in the sense that he knows and others should know that he is a member of the church.

01:27:28

And now to follow up on that teaching as they do, since Rome confesses justification as well as do

01:27:38

Protestants, justification is actually a teaching that ought to unite the now separated churches, specifically

01:27:48

Protestant churches and the Roman Catholic Church. All of us, according to the

01:27:55

NPP, confess justification and therefore we're all members of one and the same church and we ought to remove the divisions and reunite

01:28:05

Rome and the Protestant churches. It's an ecumenical teaching. And what in fact this teaching does in the hands of N .T.

01:28:17

Wright and others is to undo the accusation that the

01:28:22

Reformation was an unfortunate schism in the church. Luther had justification completely wrong as did

01:28:31

Calvin and as do the Reformed and Presbyterian creeds and unfortunately split the church over their misunderstanding of justification.

01:28:41

A right understanding of justification will mean that all professing Christians are united in one church and of course the upshot of that will be that that church will be the church of the

01:28:53

Pope. So it's further apostasy and it's false doctrine and N .T.

01:28:59

Wright rather than being regarded as an evangelical Anglican ought to be regarded by believing children of God as an egregious heretic and he ought not to be allowed to influence the churches as he is doing.

01:29:16

Let me add a personal note here. I live near Grand Rapids, Michigan. I want to show how influential this

01:29:23

N .T. Wright is, a frightening thought given the fact that he is the enemy of the fundamental gospel truth of justification by faith alone.

01:29:33

I give more explanation and evidence for what I'm saying in a chapter of the book that is devoted to N .T.

01:29:42

Wright and the new perspective on Paul. A couple of years ago he was invited to speak at,

01:29:51

I won't mention the name, at the in the seminary here locally in Grand Rapids of a very prominent reformed denomination and I was invited to attend along with theologians and ministers from all over North America.

01:30:10

I would say there must have been about 300 ministers and professors of theology in the audience of N .T.

01:30:18

Wright representing every reputedly conservative, orthodox,

01:30:25

Presbyterian and reformed seminary in North America. I would say bar none.

01:30:33

In an hour or an hour and a half in his first lecture he went through the book of Romans and systematically denied every doctrine of the

01:30:43

Christian faith as taught in the book of Romans and every doctrine that the

01:30:49

Reformation fought for and that reformers gave their lives for, from the doctrine of total depravity to the doctrine of predestination.

01:30:58

He concentrated on Paul's doctrine of justification by faith as taught in especially chapters three through five and presented that doctrine as meaning only that one who confesses justification is rightly a member of the church and he himself made the application that the implication of his view of justification was that there ought to be a uniting of all

01:31:27

Protestant churches with the Roman Catholic Church. He said that explicitly. At the end of the hour and a half of his systematic demolition of the gospel of grace as taught in the book of Romans, if there were 350 theologians at that meeting, 349 stood and gave the man a rousing sustained applause by clapping and cheering.

01:31:59

Wow. And I went home, I would have been dismayed had

01:32:04

I not believed that Jesus Christ still preserves his true church and will guard it against such influential winsome heretics as N .T.

01:32:14

Wright, but I went home utterly dismayed asking what has happened to the churches of Jesus Christ in Canada and in the

01:32:22

United States. That's the influence of N .T. Wright. Well we're going to our final break right now and by the way thank you

01:32:29

Jenny and Ben Salem Pennsylvania. Make sure we get your full mailing address because you've also won a copy of Gospel Truth of Justification Proclaimed, Defended, Developed by Professor David J.

01:32:41

Engelsma, compliments of our friends at Reform Free Publishing Association and compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who will actually be shipping that out to you free of charge to you and to Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:32:55

So we look forward to getting your full mailing address and having CVBBS .com ship that out to you.

01:33:01

We're going to our final break right now if anybody else would like to join us now is the time to do it before we run out of time.

01:33:07

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com chrisarnsen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

01:33:16

Don't go away we'll be right back with the final segment of our interview with Professor David J.

01:33:22

Engelsma right after these messages. I am Chris Arnsen host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

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01:39:15

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with just about 20 minutes to go has been and will continue to be

01:39:26

David J. Engelsma, author of the book, Gospel Truth of Justification Proclaimed, Defended, Developed, published by Reformed Free Publishing Association.

01:39:37

And if you'd like to join us with a question of your own, do it now because we're rapidly running out of time. Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

01:39:45

chrisarnzen at gmail .com. And Professor Engelsma, we have a question from CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says,

01:39:55

I was of the understanding that among anti -rights heresies involving justification is that he believed that the primary sin of the

01:40:06

Judaizers was not that they were adding works to faith for justification, but that they were making the church into an exclusive Jewish club.

01:40:14

Now, I know that the bigotry of the Judaizers is definitely an element of their sin and that they were trying to make the church exclusively

01:40:25

Jewish through enforcement of circumcision. But is this really what the meaning of the

01:40:32

Judaizers intended? Your questionnaire is correct that an aspect of anti -rights and the new perspective on Paul's doctrine is that Paul was directing his teaching of justification by faith against the tendency of the

01:40:57

Jews of his day to limit the church or the body of Christ or the gathering of the saved to themselves, the

01:41:07

Jews, and in that connection to maintain the civil and ceremonial laws of the

01:41:15

Old Testament. That is in connection with what I described as the insistence of the new perspective on Paul that justification had to do with church membership and not with salvation.

01:41:30

But that view of the issue of justification is incorrect in that Paul makes plain in Romans and Galatians that justification is a saving act of God that has implications for membership in the church.

01:41:54

Membership in the church is for those who believe in Jesus Christ and not for Jews who are distinguished by their

01:42:03

Judaism. But the main force and meaning of justification, as Paul himself makes plain in Romans and Galatians, is that it is a work of God of salvation, of accounting one to be righteous and therefore worthy of eternal life.

01:42:25

And in that connection, when Paul denies that salvation is by works or by the law, he does not refer exclusively and merely to the ceremonial law of the

01:42:43

Old Testament, which is another favorite theme of the new perspective on Paul.

01:42:50

They argue that all that Paul has in mind with works of the law are the ceremonial works or the distinctively

01:42:56

Jewish works of the Old Testament. And then, of course, they go on to argue that justification is by works of obedience to the moral law of God, the law of the

01:43:07

Ten Commandments. Their doctrine is the denial of justification by faith alone in that way.

01:43:14

But Paul makes plain in the books of Romans and Galatians that the works of the law that he has in mind are works of obedience to the moral law of God.

01:43:26

Earlier in Romans, in chapter 3, he says, for example, that by the law is the knowledge of sin.

01:43:34

And that certainly doesn't refer only or even mainly to ceremonial laws of the

01:43:40

Old Testament. The law that shows us our sin, the law that gives us knowledge of sin, is also, and especially, the

01:43:49

Ten Commandments, the moral law of God. So the new perspective on Paul goes wrong in that respect also.

01:43:57

Well, thank you, C .J. You have also won a free copy of Gospel Truth of Justification by our guest,

01:44:05

David J. Engelsman. So make sure that we get your full mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service can ship that out to you.

01:44:14

And we thank Reformed Free Publishing Association again for giving us these books that we have been giving away free of charge to both you and to us at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:44:26

We have the final winner right now of a book. We have

01:44:32

Daniel in San Jose, California. He's asked a bunch of questions, but I'm going to limit it to one because of the fact that we're rapidly running out of time.

01:44:43

Daniel's last question is, if pastors rarely do not preach—wait,

01:44:50

I'm sorry, let me rephrase that. If pastors rarely or do not preach justification by faith alone, could that fall under the category of what

01:45:00

Paul was condemning in Galatians 1, no gospel at all?

01:45:06

I'm assuming—I don't know this for certain, but I'm assuming Daniel means that even if they weren't preaching that we are saved by faith and works,

01:45:18

I'm assuming Daniel means that just the absence of teaching the truth—like you could perhaps believe in a biblically sound, biblically orthodox reformational doctrine of justification by faith alone, but you never preach it.

01:45:35

You know, you could just be preaching about a whole bunch of other things, but never this issue. I'm assuming that's what Daniel may have meant to include in his question, but I don't know.

01:45:42

But if you could answer that. Such is the centrality and fundamental nature of the truth of justification by faith alone, that if a minister does not proclaim justification by faith alone, and I would say in one way or another, in every sermon he preaches, he isn't preaching

01:46:11

Christ, and he isn't preaching the gospel of salvation by the grace of God.

01:46:17

That's how serious it is, either to be silent about justification by faith alone, or to corrupt justification by faith alone.

01:46:26

The gospel is at stake. God's gospel is at stake, and Protestantism worldwide must recognize that today, because I'm afraid that what the questioner in Southern California is describing is true widely in North America, but also throughout the world.

01:46:47

And then what happens if there is silence about justification by faith alone, such is the fundamental nature of that doctrine, that something else must be proclaimed in the stead of it.

01:47:03

If a minister isn't proclaiming the forgiveness of sins, that after all is what we're talking about here, the forgiveness of our sins, and obtaining a standing with God so that we can look him in the face in Jesus Christ and be confident that he loves us, that he saves us, that we are his adopted children.

01:47:28

If that gospel of justification by faith alone isn't preached, something will be preached about justification, and that will be the lie.

01:47:39

It's one or the other. It's, as Luther said, either the gospel of the cross or a gospel of glory.

01:47:47

And by the latter he meant a gospel that attempts to have us attain the glory of God by bypassing the cross of Jesus Christ.

01:47:57

That ought to be mentioned too. At the heart of the truth of justification by faith alone is the cross.

01:48:04

We're justified by means of faith that instrumentally brings to us the cross and the benefits of the cross of Jesus Christ.

01:48:14

So at stake here is the preaching of the cross. What did Paul say? I will preach, I'm determined to preach

01:48:19

Christ and him crucified. That was the one grand message of the apostle.

01:48:25

How in the world can a minister of the gospel be silent about the cross of Jesus Christ?

01:48:31

Either he's going to proclaim it in every sermon in close connection with justification by faith in Christ alone, or he's going to preach something other than the cross of Jesus Christ.

01:48:45

Good works, morality, obedience to the laws, the righteousness of the sinner.

01:48:52

So this is fundamental. And not only your listener in California, but the whole wide world ought to be confronted with the seriousness of what the true church of Jesus Christ is facing today.

01:49:06

Well, thank you, Daniel. Make sure we have your full mailing address in San Diego, California, because you have won the final copy that we're giving away today of Gospel Truth of Justification Proclaimed, Defended, Developed by David J.

01:49:17

Engelsma, published by Reform Free Publishing Association. Thank you so much for contributing an excellent question and continue spreading the word about our program in San Diego, California and beyond.

01:49:30

We have a question from Timothy in Grand Rapids, Michigan. If works, even our works of faith, are not a part of our righteousness, how does one explain

01:49:42

Galatians 3, 6, where it states that Abraham's belief was accounted to him for righteousness?

01:49:49

Very good question. It is. The meaning of that text in the light of scripture and in the light of the rest of the book of Galatians is not that Abraham's activity of believing, the activity itself of knowing

01:50:07

God and trusting in God, was accounted by God for Abraham's righteousness.

01:50:14

Believing is not and cannot be our righteousness with God. Believing does not pay for our sins, which

01:50:24

God's justice demands. Believing does not perfectly obey the law of God, which

01:50:30

God demands. The meaning, rather, is that Abraham's faith had as its object

01:50:39

Jesus Christ and him crucified, inasmuch as Abraham's believing fixed on the promised seed,

01:50:53

God had promised that seed to Abraham, inasmuch as, and Paul says elsewhere, that Jesus said in the

01:51:04

Gospels, Abraham saw my day and was glad, so that's evidence that Abraham's faith had

01:51:10

Christ as its object, and as much as the object of Abraham's faith was

01:51:17

Jesus Christ and him crucified, God reckoned Abraham's faith to Abraham for righteousness.

01:51:24

That is, the Christ and the obedience of Christ, that were the object of Abraham's faith, were in fact reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

01:51:36

Thank you, Timothy. Keep spreading the word about Iron Sherpins Iron Radio there in Grand Rapids, Michigan and beyond.

01:51:41

We also have Pastor Sterling Vanderwerker of Shepherds Fellowship in Greensboro, North Carolina, who asks, what if anything is lost by the blurring of the details of active and passive obedience of Jesus Christ?

01:52:00

I mentioned active and passive obedience. That's a theological distinction that has currency and reformed in Presbyterian theological circles.

01:52:10

I don't think the Bible ever uses that language. The Bible, for example, in Romans 5, simply speaks of the obedience of Christ, the one whole reality of the obedience of Christ.

01:52:23

By the active obedience of Christ is meant his obedience to the will of God throughout his life.

01:52:31

His whole life was obedience to the will of God. By his passive obedience is meant his suffering of the wrath of God, which was true of Jesus Christ throughout his life.

01:52:43

From his birth to his death, he suffered the wrath of God, but that was the case especially in his sufferings on the cross.

01:52:52

By his passive obedience, then, we may say is meant his suffering on the cross. Now the question is, really, what's the importance of that distinction and what's lost if that distinction is blurred?

01:53:06

This is the problem, and this is what actually is being done today in that movement in North America that I've referred to several times as the federal vision.

01:53:22

The federal vision and its theologians, particularly

01:53:27

Norman Shepard, who taught for years at Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia and now is a

01:53:32

Christian reformed theologian, the federal vision teaches that if there was any meriting of salvation for us by Christ, and they really deny that there was, but they say if there was, it was only his passive obedience.

01:53:51

His suffering, especially on the cross, was meritorious for his people, if there was any merit at all in Jesus' work.

01:54:02

But they deny that the active obedience of Christ was meritorious for others.

01:54:08

All that the active obedience of Christ did, they say, was to qualify him to give to God the passive obedience that our sins demanded.

01:54:20

And the reason for their denial that the active obedience of Christ was meritorious is that they want to maintain that we ourselves must make ourselves worthy of salvation and gain our justification by our own active obedience to the law of God.

01:54:42

Christ didn't obey the law of God actively in our place and for us. That's something we must do by ourselves, and that's where justification by works comes in.

01:54:53

So over against that error, that theological and doctrinal error, the

01:55:01

Church of Jesus Christ proclaims and must proclaim that the whole life as well as death of Jesus Christ was meritorious obedience on the part of Jesus Christ for his people, and that there's no work that we must do to acquire our justification and salvation or to earn our justification and our salvation.

01:55:28

Christ actively obeyed in our stead and for us, and he passively obeyed in our stead and for us.

01:55:36

Well, you know, I would love to, at some point in the future, have a debate on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio with a representative of the federal vision and someone who opposes their views.

01:55:46

So I would appreciate our listeners praying about something like that coming to fruition. Thank you, by the way,

01:55:53

Pastor Sterling Vanderwerker, and keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and keep spreading the word about it in North Carolina and beyond.

01:56:01

Going back to the Church of Rome, if they were to dismiss the

01:56:06

Reformation doctrine of justification by faith alone or the imputed righteousness of Christ, the forensic imputed righteousness of Christ as merely a legal fiction, if they were going to be consistent, they would have to also claim that the imputations, the imputation of our sins to Christ on Calvary, Christ, our sin bearer who received the wrath of the

01:56:30

Father in our stead as his people, as his elect, they would have to also, if they were going to be consistent, deny that as a legal fiction, shouldn't they?

01:56:41

That's exactly correct. That's the implication of their charge against the

01:56:47

Reformation, that it was teaching a legal fiction. God did not then impute our sins to Christ either.

01:56:54

And then you also have this matter, which comes up in Romans 5, where the substitutionary obedience of Christ for us is taught.

01:57:05

Adam was also a federal or covenant head of the human race, and his disobedience was imputed to the entire human race as the guilt of the human race.

01:57:18

That must have been a legal fiction as well. Great point. Well, we are out of time, and I want to make sure that all of your contact information is given to our audience again.

01:57:32

First of all, don't forget that you can order this book that we have been discussing for the last two hours,

01:57:41

Gospel Truth of Justification Proclaimed, Defended, Developed, by Professor David J. Engelsman.

01:57:47

You can order it from Reformed Free Publishing Association, and their website is

01:57:53

RF, as in free, RFPA for publishing association, so it's

01:58:01

RFPA, reformedfreepublishingassociation .org, RFPA .org. And do you have any other contact information that you care to give?

01:58:10

Professor Engelsman, do you have any other contact information? No, but I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for this opportunity to discuss with you vitally important doctrines of the

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Gospel of Grace, and I also want to urge Protestant Reformed listeners to your program to consider contributing to your program.

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I know that there are a number of Protestant Reformed listeners to this particular program, and I urge them to donate to your program and cause.

01:58:41

Well, I really appreciate that very, very much. And don't forget, you can also order any book that is mentioned on Iron Trip and Zion Radio from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com,

01:58:53

CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service .com. I want to thank you so much,

01:58:58

Professor Engelsman, for being on the show today. If you could hold on the line, I would like to schedule a couple of more interviews with you, if you don't mind.

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And I want to thank the Rev. Buzz Taylor for being my studio co -host today, and I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

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I hope you all have a safe and blessed and God -glorifying weekend and Lord's Day, and I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater