April 25, 2024 Show with Anthony van Straaten on “Biblical Counseling in the Reformed Pastor’s Office”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 25th day of April 2024.

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Before I introduce my guest today and our topic, I have a very important prayer request.

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I was just notified by the son of a very dear friend, a friend of mine that I've known for many years, ever since I first launched

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio out of WNYG Radio in Babylon, Long Island in 2005.

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He's a brother in Christ who many of you have heard a number of times as my guest here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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He's one of my favorite guests, and his name is Roger Salter.

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And Roger is the rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama.

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And that is a very theologically sound, reformed congregation in Birmingham, neither

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Anglo -Catholic nor leftist. It is a real solid Protestant confessional

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Anglican church, and always love interviewing Roger Salter. Well, he has been battling health problems, and I recently, in fact just moments ago, heard from his son,

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Alex, who requested prayer because there seems to be a decline in Roger's health.

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Roger has had increasing difficulty breathing, and they are also awaiting a test result from Roger's physicians on whether or not he has

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Parkinson's disease. So I would appreciate your prayer for Roger, that the great physician would be pleased to heal him of all these ailments that have been plaguing him, and that the

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Lord would guide the physicians who are looking after Roger, and that the family would grow closer, not only together, but to the

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Lord himself in the midst of this trial, and that Roger continues to be a beacon for the gospel of Jesus Christ to all around him as he goes through this trial and awaits the news of his diagnosis.

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So please pray for Roger Salter, Rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama.

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But today, I am pleased to have, for the very first time on the program, Anton Van Straten, Discipleship Pastor at Faith Evangelical Free Church of Grand Forks, North Dakota, and he is going to be speaking on the theme,

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Biblical Counseling in the Reformed Pastor's Office. He comes to me with the highest recommendations by my very dear longtime friend,

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Pastor Josh Fryman, and every time I mention his name on the program,

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I like to inform our listeners that Josh Fryman almost became my pastor when he was pastoring at a

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Baptist church out in Riverhead, Long Island, where I was contemplating moving from Amityville, Long Island to Riverhead, Long Island, which is much further out east, and unbeknownst to me,

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God had another plan for me, and I moved to Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where I am living now, and so therefore,

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Josh Fryman dodged a bullet. He is no longer pastoring in Riverhead, Long Island.

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He is now pastoring in Larimore, North Dakota, where he is the pastor of Harvest Baptist Church, and I highly recommend anybody living in or near Larimore, North Dakota, to visit that congregation and make sure you tell

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Pastor Josh Fryman I recommended that you visit, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Anton van

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Straten. Hi, Chris. Thank you for having me. Oh, it is my pleasure to have you, and please tell our listeners something about the

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Faith Evangelical Free Church of Grand Forks, North Dakota. Yes, Faith Evangelical Free Church is, well, shall

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I say, I just love being part of this congregation simply because this congregation sticks to the

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Word of God, and every Sunday, you will hear the exposition of God's scriptures on a

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Sunday, and that's what excites me. People love the Word of God. They love each other.

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It's a vibrant community of believers. We're not a super big church.

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We're around 300 people congregating, but we aim to be the salt and the light in this community of Grand Forks, North Dakota.

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And tell us something even more specific about the congregation, because I know that there's something that the evangelical free congregations have in common with Baptists in that they are not, by any stretch of the imagination, cookie -cutter congregations where they are all exactly the same or even very similar.

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There is a wide spectrum within the confines of evangelical Christianity, of course, but there is a wide spectrum of theology and doctrine amongst the evangelical free churches, and I know that, judging by the theme you wanted to address, biblical counseling, in the

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Reformed pastor's office, that this specific congregation is theologically

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Reformed. Yes, you know, they say evangelical free churches, it's like a box of chocolates.

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Sometimes you don't know what you're going to get. Yes, I have met and know pastors in the

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EV free church that are vehemently anti -Calvinist, very anti -Reform, and I also know those that it would be impossible to distinguish between what they believe and my own congregation where I'm a member,

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Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, which is a thoroughly Reformed and confessional Baptist church.

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You know, it's often a question about how do we use terminology and often how people understand terminologies.

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You know, sometimes people will take offense to the word total depravity because they think, wow, human beings are just these terrible creatures, you as horrible as can be.

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And, you know, really when you use a term like total inability and you start explaining that total depravity is not how bad we are, but rather that it tells something about our inability to come to God on our own effort.

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And then you will find that people start agreeing with you. You know, so I think like many congregations, you know, there's these trigger words that people don't always understand.

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And, you know, I've often had conversations with people and they say, oh, I'm not Calvinistic.

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And I'm like, OK, well, let's just talk. And after a little while, I'm like, you're probably more

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Calvinistic than you think you are. So, you know, I always say

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I just want to look at scriptures and exposit the scriptures and see what scriptures tell me rather than operating from a systematic theology.

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I don't preach a systematic theology. I preach the word of God. And at the same time, where I have much agreement with what you said,

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I am confident you would agree with me. If not for the merciful restraining hand of our sovereign

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God, we would all be manifesting evil so grotesque we would make

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Adolf Hitler look like a kindergarten student. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

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I fully agree with that. If it's not for God's grace and his spirit restraining people from doing evil.

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Yeah. None of us will want to kick our doors, our heads out of the front door. And in fact, we wouldn't even be safe within the confines of our own homes.

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Exactly. Well, if anybody wants more details on Faith Evangelical Free Church there in Grand Forks, North Dakota, go to faithfree .com,

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faithfree .com. You really discovered a goldmine in getting that website domain.

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It's a great website. Well, we have a tradition here on Iron Trumpet and Zion Radio.

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Whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest provide for our listeners a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include any kind of religious atmosphere in which they were raised, if any, and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign

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Lord raised up in their lives and drew them to himself and saved them. And so let's hear your story.

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Yeah, Chris. I grew up in the Dutch Reformed churches of South Africa.

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And I was born and raised in South Africa, grew up in a Dutch Reformed church. And there,

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I just kind of grew up thinking that I was a Christian.

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And now, if I'm talking Dutch Reformed churches, it's nothing that it was maybe a hundred years ago.

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You know, the Dutch Reformed churches in South Africa became very liberal, theologically liberal, in about the 1970s, 1960s, maybe even.

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Yeah, here in the United States, they're most commonly known as the RCUS. Yes, yes, that's right.

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The Reformed Church of the United States. And they're also known as the

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Marble Collegiate Churches. The Marble Collegiate Churches.

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Yeah, that's, for instance, was the name of the congregation where Norman Vincent Peale was the pastor and other

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RCUS pastors. Oh, yes, absolutely. That was

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Robert Shuler, right? Yes, that was Robert. Robert Shuler was a devotee of Norman Vincent Peale.

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Absolutely. And I remember that was so influential. Our pastors looked up to these guys growing up.

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But historically, it was a very sound Reformed denomination that came from Holland.

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And I grew up in that denomination. And so by every stretch of the imagination,

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I was a decent person. I probably, on the outside, looked somewhat

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Christian. But believe it or not, by the age of 30,

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I had this real encounter with God. And the gospel was presented to me in utmost clarity by a pastor that was a missionary from Nebraska and Pretoria, South Africa.

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And he presented the gospel to me. And I'm like, whoa, I've never heard this in this way.

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You mean I need to be forgiven of my sin? I never had quite understanding of my depravity and my offense against God and my sinful nature being totally rebellious and alienated from God.

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He explained it all, came to salvation there in South Africa.

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And it was almost an instant that my heart was warmed for evangelism and preaching the word of God to people.

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And it was about two years after my conversion that my wife and I said, we got to pack up and come to the

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United States to pursue theological training.

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And so I ended up going to the Master's Seminary in the Los Angeles area.

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And there my journey began as a pastor. So I'm one of those guys who sat in the church for a good number of years thinking that I was saved.

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Pastor, missionary, comes from Nebraska to South Africa, and here

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I get saved. And so I have got a heart for missions, too, because I'm really the product of missionary endeavors.

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And I'm assuming, since you successfully completed your seminary education at the

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Master's Seminary, that you were aware of the ministry of John MacArthur while you were in South Africa.

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Yes, that was also absolutely amazing work of God's sovereignty, because I was sitting in this church and just doing my thing.

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I was a pharmaceutical salesman. I worked in pharmaceuticals.

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A year they called them drug rips. So in the mornings,

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I would travel long distances. And one morning, I turn on this radio station by chance, and I'm saying that tongue in cheek, and it was

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Gray Studio Radio. And I'm like, whoa, what's this all about?

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But I was listening to Gray Studio for about four or five years before a pastor confronted my sin and explained the gospel properly.

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But for five years, I enjoyed his ministry. I still, up to this very day, enjoy listening to Gray Studio Radio.

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It was a very integral part of my salvation and my journey in the faith.

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Well, praise God for that. And by the way, before I forget, I want to recommend a book that involves the very denomination that you are from, originally.

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It is a Banner of Truth publication titled The Power of Prayer, The New York Revival of 1858 by Samuel Prime.

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And it is all about how a revival broke out in the 19th century.

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It actually started in 1857 when a group of businessmen began meeting for prayer, and it just exploded into a phenomenon that spread all over Manhattan.

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And there was a genuine revival there. And I loved reading that book and promote it whenever I get the opportunity.

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And if you're interested in getting a copy, you can go to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

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cvbbs .com, and ask for The Power of Prayer, The New York Revival of 1858 by Samuel Prime.

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I just thought I'd throw that out there, brother. Thank you so much.

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I would definitely look into that. I love Banner of Truth books.

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They just have such solid books that they publish.

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And probably one of my most favorite books is by Ian Murray, Evangelicalism Divided.

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I'm not sure if you've read that one, but that's one of the classics, too, of Banner of Truth.

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Yes. Well, what led you to the whole field of biblical counseling?

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Yeah, very interesting. So here I come to salvation. I had to tell myself

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I got to leave the church that I've been part of for practically all my life.

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And here I go to this small, non -denominational Bible preaching church.

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And by the way, that pastor from Nebraska, he was sent out by John MacArthur's church,

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Grace Community Church in 1995, to plant a church there in South Africa.

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And so here I go to this church, and it's like, you know, he preaches through Ephesians.

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And, you know, I'm just like, wow, I feel like I'm getting saved all over again. OK, and he's just teaching.

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And my heart is warmed with the exposition of God's word. And then after the morning service, he would have what is called a

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Bible hour. And that very first or second Sunday I was there, I stayed for the

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Bible hour. And he started talking about this thing called biblical counseling. And at that point in life,

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I was in the pharmaceutical industry. And actually, I was generating income for myself from people's problems and calamities.

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Our company was well known for manufacturing certain psychotropic drugs for the treatment of depression and anxiety and things like that.

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And here this pastor comes with a totally different perspective to human problems.

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And though it was jarring, it was kind of like, well, you got to put me out of a job here pastor if you keep on like this.

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You know, I'm making money from people's problems and, you know, the prescriptions of psychiatrists and general practitioners.

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And so here I'm listening to him and he had a

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PowerPoint where he would take something and he would say, this is the secular medical view of a certain problem.

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And this is what they would label it. And this is what the biblical word is for it.

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And it totally rocked my world because the scriptures he pointed out so clearly speak to our problems and our difficulties in life.

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And so here I'm sitting, I'm processing, it's jarring to my worldview that was so rooted in pharmaceuticals and science, quote unquote science, that, you know,

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I didn't quite embrace it right away. And I remember the one day I sat with this doctor and I was talking to him about this one antidepressant that we were marketing.

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And he looked at me and he says, don't you think Jesus is enough to deal with our problems?

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And I thought, dude, where are you coming from? You know, you're supposed to be a doctor.

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And this guy was a born again believer. And he started explaining to me how he deals with his patients.

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And he wasn't quite anti -drug treatment for depression and other conditions.

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But at the end of the day, this guy brought Christ into the equation.

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And I will never forget that. And I think that started a journey where I started looking at ways of helping people with their problems, but using scripture and looking at scripture not only as adequate, but sufficient for all matters pertaining to life and godliness.

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And how did you actually become a biblical counselor?

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Yeah, so let me rewind here a little bit.

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So I'm in South Africa. I want to come to the United States to go to the

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Master's Seminary, because I really firstly wanted to become a pastor, a preaching pastor.

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But my life intersected with a wonderful man.

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He's a professor at the Master's College or the Master's University now,

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Dr. John Street. And him and I conversed. And I said to him, you know,

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I might even want to consider to become a biblical counselor. Can't I just simply do a counseling degree?

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He said, yes, you can. But I would say go to the Master's Seminary because biblical counseling is built on a biblical theology.

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And if you're a good exegete of God's word, you will be a good biblical counselor.

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And if you are schooled in theology, especially Reformed theology, you will be well equipped as a biblical counselor.

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So going to seminary, you know, it was just kind of part of the package.

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Biblical counseling and Master's University and Master's Seminary has a very strong emphasis on biblical counseling.

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It's not just, you know, the cherry on the cake. It's very part of the ingredients of the cake.

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And after seminary, I realized that people have problems.

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And my first pastorate was in Northern California in the rural areas there.

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And I realized that people have problems. And as a pastor,

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I need to be well equipped and to equip myself in one sense or another to become more equipped and more adequate to helping people with their problems.

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And so I started attending these seminars and courses put on by what was then called the

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Noothetic Counseling Association. Today they're known as the Association for Certified Biblical Counselors.

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We simply call it ACBC. And I took one course after another, one seminar after another, one conference after another.

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And so I was just keeping myself fresh with that. And so really what spurred me to pursue biblical counseling was the amount of people that came to my office with problems.

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And people wanted a biblical solution to their problem.

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And I just needed to equip myself. So currently I'm in a more official capacity as a biblical counselor.

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I'm currently pursuing certification through the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors.

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It involves, I think it involves about 60 hours of class work.

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And then it involves an exam. It would be about 70 pages of answers that you submit and then 50 hours of supervised counseling.

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It's divided up in three phases. So currently I'm in that final phase where I am counseling under the supervision of a fellow of the

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Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. So, Chris, to be honest with you,

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I think just the demand and the need out there made me focus on biblical counseling.

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I'm still a pastor at heart. I still love preaching and teaching.

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But people need counsel and they need advice. And I want to be available because the alternative,

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I do not have a lot of confidence in the alternative. Amen.

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Well, we are going to our first commercial break right now. And if you have a question of your own for Anton van

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Straten about biblical counseling, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

28:02

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence. Don't go away. We will be right back.

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It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast of the

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Lord's blessing and the knowledge of himself. I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an

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Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island. I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program, hosted by my longtime friend and brother,

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That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to Him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

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I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

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That's royaldiadem .com. And we are now back with Anton van

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Straten, who is a biblical counselor in Grand Forks, North Dakota, and we are discussing biblical counseling in the

38:36

Reformed Pastor's office. If you have a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

38:49

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

38:55

And whenever we're discussing counseling, it's very obvious that we may get personal and private questions that come up.

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So that's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Anton, there is obviously a number of different philosophies and approaches to counseling that even identify themselves as Christian counseling, that those that espouse and participate in biblical counseling are very leery of.

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In fact, they may even outright vehemently denounce some of these other methodologies, even though they are identified as Christian.

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If you could further explain. Yes, Chris, I think that is a great concern because I often engage people in counseling and they would go to a counseling center of some sort and they would say, oh, it's

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Christian. It's Christian. And I would go on the website and I would look at the website and it would say have the word

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Christian in there somewhere. But the counseling models or the approach to counseling is either psychology, secular psychology, or it tries to merge biblical

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Christianity with secular counseling. And that actually confuses people.

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I think it does not look at God's redemptive plan properly.

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It does not look at things like human depravity in it.

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It does not look at God's sovereignty, that God is ultimately, through Jesus Christ and his spirit, the ultimate healer here.

41:03

And so there's so many variations. And my question always is that I ask people,

41:11

I say, let's say I make you a nice Caesar salad. How many cockroaches do

41:18

I need to put in the salad before that salad becomes, you know, inedible, you know, or unsafe to use?

41:27

Or even the old analogy of the, you know, let's take some

41:33

Roundup and I put it in a two liter of soda. How much do

41:40

I put in there? You mean the weed killer? Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, I'm talking about the weed killer, right?

41:45

So my question then is to people at which point does the counseling become ineffective or missing the goal of bringing

42:00

God glory? If we borrow from people who are vehemently anti -Christian, you know, if we think of people like Freud, he was vehemently anti -religious and anti -Christian.

42:19

Why would we try and combine Freud with Christ and think we can pave a midway there?

42:28

And that is typically called integrational counseling. And that movement,

42:33

I think, started around the 1970s. And, you know, maybe for I don't want to, you know, label people, but it was made popular through a man by the name of Dr.

42:49

James Dobson, where he tried to integrate psychology, secular psychology and Christianity and try to merge the two and kind of cherry pick the best of both worlds.

43:04

I don't think with a Christian worldview or a biblical worldview that you can do that because doesn't

43:11

Colossians 2 .8 say, see to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception according to the traditions of men, right?

43:22

So is Freud not the traditions of men? Is that not empty deception or philosophy that is not of Christ, but rather of men?

43:34

And to try and combine that, I think, confuses people and it misses the mark.

43:42

So what would make your approach different compared to what you just said in regard to the host of other so -called

43:55

Christian counseling methods that would involve perhaps Freudianism, Hans Kung, pop psychology, whatever the case may be?

44:06

Yeah. In a practical way, how would it look different when, let's say, you are counseling a couple where one of them committed adultery and they are perhaps on the verge of a divorce, but they are giving it one more shot to try to rescue the marriage and they're visiting you.

44:31

How would something perhaps be practically different? Yeah. So I don't want to overgeneralize here, but most generally in a setting where you've got this eclectic form of counseling or this integrational form of counseling, usually, or even just a plain secular form of counseling, the goal is there, we want to make you happy.

45:03

We want to make you happy. We want to make sure you walk out here and your problems are dealt with.

45:13

And certainly as a biblical counselor, that is part of what we do.

45:20

But really what we want to do is to make sure you are in the right relationship with the creator

45:28

God. We want to make sure you're in a right relationship with the creator God, because if that relationship, that vertical relationship is not working, forget about the horizontal relationships, right?

45:41

And so when a couple sits in front of me that has gone through something like idolatry, the first thing

45:47

I would ask them is, show me your testimony. Tell me how you came to Christ.

45:55

And if there is no clear testimony, before we go anywhere, I will need to present the gospel to them.

46:04

Because ultimately, true change and true transformation does not come through me as a counselor or through the therapist or even the person themselves.

46:16

It comes through Christ, his word and his spirit at work in people's lives.

46:22

And so we've got to get people into fellowship with the creator before they can be in harmonious fellowship with one another.

46:32

So that's number one. I think the first thing is, now let's say people are Christians.

46:38

I think then we want to call what it is. You know, biblical counseling doesn't use labels borrowed from clinical psychology or even from what is typically called the

46:56

DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual that describes mental illnesses.

47:03

We don't use that vernacular. We look at what the Bible calls it.

47:09

And so with a man committing adultery, we just call it what it is.

47:15

And we go to scripture and we confront the person about their sin. And then, of course, if somebody is confronted with their sin, what's the first thing you want to see?

47:27

You want to see contrition. You want to see remorse. And you want to see repentance.

47:33

And so we lead people through repentance. And then, of course, after repentance comes restoration, right?

47:44

If you think of passages like Matthew 18 and Luke 17, where if somebody confesses their sin, they repent.

47:55

Our job is to forgive them. And then the biblical counselor or the pastor will then lead them back to restoration and have that relationship restored.

48:10

And then, of course, these things don't always happen overnight.

48:16

We got to walk with people through that. And this is, I think, another distinctive of biblical counseling.

48:23

When you are a counselor that in some way or another, you affiliated with a state body or a state licensure, or you are taking insurance claims, you are really limited to walking a journey with that person because of what they would call a conflict of interest.

48:53

If somebody comes to me for counseling, guess what?

49:01

I want to see them be part of the body of Christ. I want to see them being part of the church.

49:07

I want to see people having them over for dinner. I want to have them over for dinner.

49:14

I want to check in on them. I build a relationship with them. What is that called?

49:19

That is called discipleship. That is called what Galatians 6 -2 calls bearing one another's burdens.

49:28

I want to bear their burdens. Because if somebody had committed adultery, that is a burden to bear.

49:36

And we as Christians are called to come alongside them. And so biblical counselors are not people who operate with office hours.

49:48

They pastoral. They there for people. They take the calls. And they truly there to bear one another's burden.

49:57

So that's another thing that is very different, I think, from what you will see in other situations where they operate under different counseling models.

50:10

Okay. We have a listener named Zane in Owings Mills, Maryland.

50:17

And Zane asks, I know of a

50:23

Christian pastor who identifies as a biblical counselor, and even more specifically, a

50:30

New Thetic counselor. And yet he is Arminian. Is there something inconsistent about Arminianism and New Thetic counseling that we should be aware of?

50:40

And perhaps this pastor is mislabeling himself? Yeah, that's an interesting one, because one thing that Reformed theology does for you is it really brings a peace that surpasses all understanding.

51:05

You know, let's say somebody comes in and they have doubts about their salvation because they're struggling with sin.

51:12

And they're wrestling with this addiction of some sort.

51:18

Okay. The last thing that you want to do is say to the person, look, you might forfeit your salvation here at some point.

51:28

I mean, what comfort does that give to somebody? And I think with the

51:33

Reformed theology of biblical counseling, it's such a hand -in -glove thing.

51:39

You know, the guy who pioneered biblical counseling for us here in America is the late

51:45

Dr. J. Adams. He was a professor at Westminster for a while.

51:51

Yes, and I had the privilege of interviewing him on his book

51:56

From Forgiven to Forgiving, and he also wrote a very nice commendation for the show.

52:04

Yeah, and let me tell you, too, Chris, when somebody is really in a difficult spot in life, the grace of God, knowing that you will not pull yourself up by your bootstrap, but you'll get there only because of the graciousness of God.

52:24

You know how much comfort that brings to people? The sovereignty of God in salvation and in sanctification, all these things bring such a comfort to people.

52:36

So for me, coming from an Armenian point of view and biblical counseling,

52:42

I think there would be some ideas that will be conflicting.

52:48

I don't say it's absolutely impossible, but I think there will be some challenges, and I think it actually will limit the type of counseling that you can give to people.

53:04

Well, we have to go to our midway break right now. Please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can respond more frequently and successfully to our advertisers.

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Always keep it in mind that our advertisers and the finances that come through their advertising campaigns are what keeps

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So please try to respond to them as often as possible. And also, please send in your questions to Anton Van Straten about biblical counseling.

53:42

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53:49

Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private.

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We'll be right back. Don't go away. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

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Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Attai in County Kildare, Ireland.

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Going back to 2005. One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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Hello, my name is Anthony Uvinio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com

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01:12:15

Anton van Straten, where he serves on the pastoral staff. Well, I have extensive lists of biblical churches spanning the globe, and I've helped many people in our audience all over the world find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live.

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Straten. It's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. And give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

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If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

01:13:00

We have an anonymous listener who says, I have heard that New Thetic counseling dissuades people from ever using any kind of pharmaceutical means to get over depression or other things that plague them mentally and emotionally.

01:13:21

Is that true? That is a very good question,

01:13:28

Chris. I would say that is not true. That is categorically false.

01:13:33

You know, we understand that human beings are made of two parts, an immaterial part and a material part, a spiritual part and a physical part.

01:13:48

And if there is an organic cause for a person's problem, then, of course, you've got to take some medication to take care of that.

01:14:06

I think the Bible itself is not against using any form of medicament.

01:14:14

So I would not say that that is an accurate assessment of the

01:14:20

New Thetic counseling movement or the biblical counseling movement. However, I want to see if I can find that quote of Dr.

01:14:31

Martin Lloyd -Jones. Martin Lloyd -Jones, as you all know, he was a practicing physician and he later became a pastor and he said something very interesting.

01:14:46

He said that people, the first thing when they have a problem, they want to find the right medication.

01:14:53

And that's kind of normal. That's who we are as human beings.

01:15:00

But at the end of the day, we cannot forsake the reality that a lot of problems we experience in life, which will often be categorized as mental illness, is often labeled under this banner of it's a problem with the brain.

01:15:24

There's a brain illness and it needs to be medicated. Not everything is like that.

01:15:34

Typically, people will run to the doctor and they want to find a medication and they will seldom take the time to say, is there something in my spiritual life that is not bringing glory to God?

01:15:51

And that is maybe why I'm feeling depressed. So, what am I saying here is

01:15:56

I'm not saying that we as biblical counselors are against medication.

01:16:03

In fact, we encourage first time visitors to the counseling office to get a checkup with a doctor.

01:16:12

We always ask, when was the last time you saw your physician? Because we know that the body and the spirit, the body and the mind, it cannot be separated.

01:16:25

It is a unified whole. And so when there's a sickness, an organic sickness, there is, of course, a room for medication.

01:16:36

But people also need to understand that medication, whatever form of medication that might be, in the form of a psychotropic agent, that does not always address the problem adequately.

01:16:52

And if you want me to expand on that a little bit, I can go into why there's limitations.

01:16:58

OK, so let's think about this. If let's say we take a certain type of medication, it will deal with certain types of symptoms.

01:17:15

But the question we got to ask ourselves, will it deal with the motivations of the heart?

01:17:22

Will that medication change your thinking? Would that medication, for instance, deal with a particular sin?

01:17:33

Wouldn't we all like it, Chris? Wouldn't you like it if I could prescribe a medication that says this will take care of your sin problem here?

01:17:42

This will take care of your impatience, right? We always think that medication will do more for us than we think.

01:17:50

And so typically, let's take something like anxiety, right?

01:17:58

There's often a lot of things that has this broad label, general anxiety disorder.

01:18:06

While it describes what is happening there to the person, elevated heart rate, tight chestedness, sleeplessness, that doesn't describe often to us why it is happening.

01:18:25

Now, if there's an organic cause, there's a thyroid problem or there's an underlying metabolic disturbance in the person's body.

01:18:36

Of course, medication will need to be prescribed.

01:18:42

But at the end of the day, the why, we got to ask, why are you anxious?

01:18:49

And if somebody's anxious because they have an irrational fear about just about everything, the medication is not going to change that thinking.

01:19:01

It will mask the symptom, but it will not change the course of things unless the thinking is changed.

01:19:11

So a lot of what public counseling does, it tries to get to the root cause of things and try and change the direction of things by addressing the mind or the

01:19:25

Bible typically uses the word, the heart. By addressing the heart, and I'll give you an example,

01:19:33

Paul in Philippians 4 says, be anxious for nothing, be anxious for nothing or stop being anxious.

01:19:42

But then he adds to that, he says, but make everything known by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving.

01:19:51

OK, so there is like you've got to stop being anxious. But he goes further in Philippians 4, 8, he says, therefore, brothers, finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there's any excellence or anything worthy of praise, think upon these things.

01:20:18

And so you've got to change the way you think about things.

01:20:24

You've got to think of good things, happy things, true things, right?

01:20:30

And at the end of the day, that will have an impact on your levels of anxiety.

01:20:36

But no medication can do that for you. No amount of medication can do that.

01:20:42

The medication could help with the palpitations, the medication could maybe help with getting a better night's sleep.

01:20:48

And that is absolutely fine. We're happy for the invention of medication.

01:20:56

I do believe it's part of God's common grace. But at the end of the day, people need to understand that there are great limitations to medication unless we keep in consideration that we both body and spirit, we have this inner man and the outer man, the immaterial part of us and the material part we cannot neglect either part.

01:21:19

So that's a long answer to a short question. Now, I have heard that in the field of psychology in particular, although I'm assuming it is likely taking place in the field of psychiatry as well, but that children are very often being highly overmedicated and improperly medicated.

01:21:47

Sometimes children are being prescribed medications just because they're acting like children, perhaps especially young boys who, from what

01:22:01

I've heard for many years, tend to be typically more mischievous and tend to be, you know, wanting to let off steam and they're being perhaps a lot more active than the average little girl and so on.

01:22:21

And parents have been told to get drugs prescribed for these little kids to really take out of them things that naturally should be there.

01:22:39

Am I overstating the case? No, I don't think you're overstating the thing.

01:22:45

And it's not just children, it's just that the market of what is, if I could use the word market, but everything in terms of the medical establishment, mental health is this ever expanding thing.

01:23:05

And all of a sudden, what was considered normal 40 years ago, no longer is normal.

01:23:13

And there's even psychiatrists. I believe the man's name was

01:23:18

Dr. What's his name? Dr. Alan Francis.

01:23:25

He was a chairman on the American Association of Psychiatry.

01:23:34

And he was also at Duke University School of Medicine. And he started saying, you know, what's normal nowadays?

01:23:43

And he was saying things like somebody loses a spouse and they downcast.

01:23:53

They are, quote unquote, depressed. They mourning, right?

01:23:59

And he says, is mourning now becoming abnormal?

01:24:05

You know, and so and so then medication is prescribed. And so you think with children, too, there's certain things with kids.

01:24:16

Some kids are more active than others. Some find like myself at school was tremendously boring for me as I couldn't get way to get out of the class room.

01:24:31

But there's this tendency to say, well, rather than walking the kid through things, which

01:24:38

I would call discipleship, right? Rather than discipling the child, we want to take the easy route and say, let's get a diagnosis.

01:24:48

Let's get a prescription that will fix it. And at the end of the day, is the heart being addressed?

01:24:55

You asked early on, what's the difference between, let's say, integrational model of counseling versus biblical counseling?

01:25:04

The one always addresses the heart. OK. And. School teachers, parents often want the quick fix.

01:25:17

They want the pop tart fix. And so they they resort to medication instead of discipling the heart.

01:25:25

And I think it's the parent's responsibility and God given duty of every parent to say, maybe

01:25:32

I need to address my child's heart. And maybe we need to not only address the heart, but there needs to be some consequences and discipline for the actions.

01:25:45

So if there's behavior in the classroom, for instance, that we think are OK, this is now on the far end of the spectrum, then, of course, we got to deal with that.

01:25:56

But I would agree with you, a lot of things that were considered normal 20, 40 years ago no longer is.

01:26:06

It's considered abnormal. And of course, the reverse is true, where many things that were commonly known as being disturbingly abnormal and rare are now being identified as normal and perhaps growing in commonality because people are being brainwashed by leftism to believe that this is a not only a normal thing, but perhaps even a good and praiseworthy things worthy of celebration.

01:26:46

And therefore, more people are acting out upon this. And I'm speaking specifically right now of the whole transgender movement.

01:26:56

And I have a couple of questions about that. First of all, before I ask you how you would handle a case where parents come to see you with a child that is claiming to be the opposite gender that they were biologically created by God with, do you believe that, and perhaps you can even say this by your own experience, that there is less of a likelihood of children raised by Christian parents who are indeed biblically faithful, not

01:27:39

Christian in name only, but who are living out their lives in obedience. Obviously, nobody does perfectly, but they are known in their church and community as being biblically faithful parents.

01:27:54

And the kids are going to Christian private schools, that there is less likelihood of a child in that environment believing they are of the opposite gender.

01:28:08

The reason why I'm asking that, I mean, we're all sinners. We're all born sinners, whether you are born in a pagan home or a

01:28:17

Christian home. But the difference is, I believe a lot of this transgender stuff is coming from the fact that kids are being brainwashed in the government schools from the earliest ages to immediately embrace the identity of an opposite gender just because of something that they're temporarily emotionally and mentally feeling or going through, and that it's really the environment that's creating this.

01:28:47

Am I totally off base here? Well, I think this is just the—we hear at the end of something that started way back, right?

01:29:03

If you even go back to the 1960s, when

01:29:08

Dr. J. Adams started responding to psychology, and psychology at that time, there was a guy who said that psychology has actually gone crazy because there's no longer any consequences, right?

01:29:31

There's no consequence on anything. Whatever happens, we will label it, and then that person suffers no consequences.

01:29:43

And I think where we are today is we have kind of embraced that mentality of, well, we dare not speak to an issue.

01:29:56

And I mean, you had a place here where certain behaviors in a classroom, in a school classroom, is just not addressed.

01:30:08

And even I was actually shocked when my girls went—I've got two girls.

01:30:15

They went to high school and public school, the one we took out eventually out of high school, but just how boys were treating girls.

01:30:27

And I'm honest with you, when I grew up, that was absolutely unacceptable, and that would lead to discipline or even expulsion.

01:30:37

You treated girls differently, right? And so we just live in a society where just kind of everything goes.

01:30:50

And I think that's why we're at the point where we're at that, you know, if you want to dress up as a girl or dress up even as a critter, that's

01:31:04

OK. Nobody's going to say to you that that is not good or that is not right.

01:31:10

And so I think we just live in a society where nobody ever dares say that that's not normal.

01:31:21

You know, I think there's a place for us to, as Christians, to bring a balance to society by speaking up and say, how on earth can this be normal?

01:31:37

And I don't know, Chris, I just think we have challenging times.

01:31:44

And my personal experience, we thought we could put our kids into a public school, having them exercise their faith and their beliefs in God and Christ and the word of God.

01:32:03

But let me be honest with you, even in conservative areas like North Dakota, there is great hostility towards Christians to the extent that the proselytizing is happening at such extent that if you do not heartily approve of people's actions, you will be on the receiving end of persecution.

01:32:32

We experienced that firsthand. And that is in conservative Midwest. Yeah, you can be a conservative patriot and be a reprobate.

01:32:47

You know, that does not guarantee that you are one of the elect or that you are a Christian. But going back to my original question, how often do you see, if at all,

01:33:01

Christian parents who have raised their children in the faith, not parents that have come to faith later in life, and they've already got teenagers in the house that have been subject to an ungodly home and have gone to government schools, but parents who have raised their children in the faith and even sent their children to private

01:33:25

Christian schools or homeschooled them, and are more careful on what they expose their children to as far as the influences of the satanic worldview of the

01:33:44

United States and the world, how often did those kinds of parents come to you with a child who says,

01:33:50

I am a little girl, even though I'm a little boy, biologically? Yeah, short answers.

01:33:59

I've never dealt with this, I'm honest with you. We've been doing, my wife and I have been doing counseling, biblical counseling, since 2012, and we're doing a whole lot more now, but I cannot record anywhere where we've dealt with this in a

01:34:24

Christian home, and I don't know if this is the answer that you expected. Well, yes, it is, because I was saying that I believe that the reason why children in a growing number are claiming to be the opposite gender from what they were born with, or even claiming to be homosexual, is because of the influence of satanic teachers and other influences of the world that are brainwashing kids.

01:34:54

They may be planting in the minds of kids thoughts that would never in a million years have existed there if it were not for these diabolical and evil teachers and other people of influence that want to use the children of the world as their laboratory rats, and perhaps even just want to recruit them to become like they are.

01:35:25

Yeah, absolutely. This is a learned behavior, this is a cultivated behavior, this is something that is pushed upon the minds of children.

01:35:40

So, there's nothing natural here, it's something that comes, it's important, and it's brought to children, and again, we as a family experienced this firsthand, and that was the great motivation for us to withdraw our daughter from the public school to go to a

01:36:06

Christian school, because it's not that it was just there, it was actually intentionally pushed upon the child to the point of, if you cannot give heartily approval to what we're teaching you, you're being a problem here.

01:36:31

There's something wrong with you, you're homophobic, and so there's a real aggression if there's no approval of this, and I'm talking of 9th and 10th grade children.

01:36:48

That's the type of hostility that you're seeing. I can tell you lots of stories with my daughter's experience, and she wanted to stand on her faith in the public school, but we said, no, this is counterproductive, we're pulling you out of the school, honey, and we'll pay the $6 ,000 a year to get you in a

01:37:08

Christian school, because this is actually distracting from what they should be doing, is teaching you to read and write and do math.

01:37:23

Okay, we have a question from Avery in Sedalia, Missouri, and Avery says, can you ask

01:37:32

Anton when he plans on giving up his fly fishing nonsense and get a real fishing rod, and is he sorry for leading me astray by teaching me fly fishing?

01:37:43

Obviously this is an inside joke by somebody you know. Yeah, this is an inside joke.

01:37:51

You know, Avery, a young man who served faithfully in the Air Force, he's now living in Sedalia, Missouri, but there too, you know, he's taken a liking, not only of fly fishing, that's my hobby,

01:38:12

I make disciples of fly fishermen, but I also make counselors.

01:38:21

You know, Chris, we think of biblical counseling as something where you've got to have that certificate on the wall, you've got to have all these hours of counseling, and yes, all these things are important, and you've got to read a lot of books and things like that, that is all very important, but you know what

01:38:38

Paul says in Romans 15, he says that he's confident that people, his congregation, has sufficient knowledge and sufficient goodness within themselves because of Christ that they are able to admonish one another.

01:39:00

Let me read this for you from the NASB, and concerning you, my brethren,

01:39:06

I myself also am convinced that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to also admonish one another, right?

01:39:20

And so what Paul is saying here is we are able to speak into each other's lives, and admonish is a word that we get very scared of,

01:39:31

Chris, but admonish is speaking the truth in love in somebody's life.

01:39:37

That is not just the job of the biblical counselor, it's the job of every

01:39:42

Christian. And so here, my friend Avery, who I've discipled for the past three years and counseled, and I never saw it as something like, oh,

01:39:56

I'm the counselor, and he's the counselee, and I'm professional, and he is going to seek my professional help.

01:40:05

No, I saw him as a brother in Christ. And so him and I would counsel for an hour and a half about something, and then him and I would pack up, and then we'd go fishing.

01:40:18

It's so diametrically different. Are you there, brother? Therapeutic models of counseling.

01:40:28

Well, I've got to give you a hearty round of applause for giving such a thorough and detailed answer to a joke question.

01:40:44

Avery, I'm going to get you back, you rascal. We are going to our final commercial break.

01:40:50

Don't go away, we'll be right back. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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01:42:21

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01:50:39

Welcome back, Anton. If you could, I want, before we go to any additional listener questions,

01:50:45

I want to make sure that you have laid out the most important things that you envisioned addressing today when talking about biblical counseling.

01:50:57

Yeah, Chris, thank you. I think one thing that I want to leave our listeners, and maybe there's some pastors, laymen alike, really give biblical counseling a consideration and being part of this movement that has been with us now for close to 50, 60 years now.

01:51:25

I think it's well within the reach of pastors to get additional training in counseling without neglecting their congregations.

01:51:38

I've got a full -time, daytime job as a pastor, and I've taken this on the side, and it's been very manageable.

01:51:48

I want to encourage pastors to consider the Association for Certified Biblical Counselors and just give that a second consideration.

01:52:01

I tell you, there's nothing as satisfying to see God work in somebody's life and working out their problems for them.

01:52:12

And I think pastors who tend to say, well, I'm more oriented towards pulpit preaching.

01:52:19

I'm not really a counselor. I want to encourage you, pastor, consider doing counseling from God's Word.

01:52:29

It is the power of God. The gospel is the power of God. So I want to encourage pastors to reconsider before they say,

01:52:40

I think I will refer you to somebody else. Before you refer, take a moment and see what can you minister or how can you minister to them.

01:52:51

Now, one of the very popular philosophies of so -called

01:53:02

Christian psychology and Christian counseling that would be really a part of a very different worldview than that of biblical counseling in the way that you specifically defined it, also known as euthetic counseling, is the exaltation of the whole idea of self -esteem, building up the self -esteem of not only children but everybody.

01:53:38

How do we—or how would a counselor of your type, a biblical counselor, approach the area of somebody that does appear through one of your counseling sessions, he appears to genuinely hate himself?

01:54:02

I mean, I know the Bible says that no one hates himself, but it may appear that way, and it may appear that the person is seriously depressed to the point of even having suicidal thoughts.

01:54:18

How do you approach something like that without delving into or utilizing a false paradigm of self -esteem?

01:54:30

Yeah, yeah, I think if we just take at the basics of the gospel, right, we have to really come to that conclusion of who we are, right, that we are sinners, completely undeserving of God's grace.

01:54:55

Unfortunately, we more and more tend to think that we are deserving of something, right?

01:55:03

And if people feel like they are deserving of something and they don't get it, right, recognition, honor, respect, whatever the case might be, special treatment, being liked by people, right?

01:55:18

If we don't get it, there's two ways in which human nature will respond. The one will, I'm going to insist on that, or it will go the other way of this self -loathing, oh, nobody loves me, oh,

01:55:35

I'm just not worth anything, it's probably better that I just go away from here, or I hate my life, that type of language.

01:55:45

And really what that is, it is manipulative, it is attention -seeking language, right?

01:55:53

So what is the solution here is not that we build somebody's self -esteem, because the self -esteem is already inflated, right?

01:56:03

What we want is a more biblical view of self, right?

01:56:11

And so what we want to do is take people to scriptures that will adjust the view of self, right?

01:56:20

If we go to scriptures, Christ says, you know, if somebody slaps you in the face, turn the cheek.

01:56:30

If somebody wants your tunic, give it to them, right?

01:56:36

So, you know, I think we, as biblical counselors, we don't want to see somebody loathing themselves, that's not helpful.

01:56:46

We also don't want to pump up somebody's self -esteem and inflate their self -esteem.

01:56:51

What we want is a biblical view of self, a biblical anthropology, and once we correct that, once we see ourselves the way

01:57:02

God sees us, I think we are able to help somebody.

01:57:08

But there again, we begin with thinking gone wrong. And we are out of time.

01:57:16

I wish we had more time because even that question evoked other questions in my mind that I wanted to ask you, but perhaps we can have you return for another interview.

01:57:27

But I want to make sure our listeners have, first of all, the website for your church,

01:57:36

Faith Evangelical Free Church of Grand Forks, North Dakota. It's faithfree .com,

01:57:41

faithfree .com. Is there any other website that perhaps may focus exclusively on your counseling ministry or any other contact information that you care to provide?

01:57:54

The website will tell it all. And if you want to go look for some good resources, if somebody's interested more in biblical counseling, go to the website biblicalcounseling .com.

01:58:11

There's so many resources there. And what's helpful there, it also has a map as to where you can find certified biblical counselors.

01:58:23

So if you want to know if there's a counselor in the area, go to biblicalcounseling .com, and that will be super helpful to you.

01:58:31

Well, I want to thank you so much for being on the program. And I also want to remind our listeners, if you're a man in ministry leadership, the next free biannual

01:58:41

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01:58:52

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01:59:44

and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line. And now I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater