November 3, 2017 Show with Dan Phillips on “Biblical Preaching: Supernatural, Not Magical”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you a happy Friday on this third day of November 2017 and I'm delighted to have back on the program a returning guest who blessed many of you the last time including myself and my co -host

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I believe, Reverend Buzz Taylor, I think was with us. His name is Dan Phillips and Dan Phillips received his

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Master of Divinity at Talbot Theological Seminary and he has taught seminary and college classes in New Testament studies,

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Hebrew and Old Testament theology and has preached and presented seminars on Proverbs and the sovereignty of God and has written biblical newspaper columns and tracks, has hosted a radio talk show and has an ongoing conference and pulpit ministry and he is most broadly known for his writing on the

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Pyromaniacs blog with Phil Johnson who's the executive director of John MacArthur's ministry,

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Grace to You, and Frank Turk and at his own blog, Biblical Christianity and he's also the pastor of Copperfield Bible Church in Houston, Texas which thankfully due to the mercy and grace of our

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Sovereign Lord was spared any kind of serious damage or the taking of life or the injuring of life during the recent hurricane down there in Houston that was so catastrophic and today we are going to be discussing biblical preaching supernatural not magical and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dan Phillips.

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It's an honor to be here thanks for having me back Chris. And in studio with me is my co -host the Reverend Buzz Taylor and it's good to be here also thank you.

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If anybody would like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com and please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you are writing from outside of the

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USA and please only remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter over which you are asking perhaps you disagree with your own pastor on something that we're discussing and you don't want to identify yourself perhaps you disagree with your own spouse or perhaps you are a member of a church or denomination perhaps even

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Roman Catholicism or or Eastern Orthodoxy or something like that and you you have a question to ask and you don't feel comfortable identifying yourself well we understand all of that and you may remain anonymous if it is indeed in regard to a personal and private matter but if it's just a general question we would appreciate you giving us at least your first name city and state and country of residence when you write in at chrisarnsen at gmail .com

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and by the way Dan before we go on to our subject at hand for our listeners who have not heard you on this program before why don't you tell our listeners something about Copperfield Bible Church in Houston Texas and also let us know any update that you care to share in the aftermath of the recent hurricane down there.

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Sure, Copperfield is an independent church not affiliated with any denomination. It's been standing here since 1934 actually started a few miles down the street from where we are now but it's been at this location since at least the 30s.

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Got one building here that's been standing since the 30s so I thought during the hurricane that it might be the safest place to be since it's been standing in sight all that time and then another building that's been added in the 80s but it's got a tradition of being a very bible teaching church.

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I came here going on six years ago. Somebody here was a reader of my blog and when my faithful predecessor decided it was time for him to move on this gentleman thought of me and reached out asked me what

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I think of pastoring a church in Houston. I said isn't it awfully hot in Houston and he said it's only hot outside.

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So I've just been absolutely delighted to be here. My family's very happy to be here with these dear folks ministering the word of God.

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As for the hurricane we formed a committee and got some donations from within.

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We already had a disaster relief fund and some very generous donations through our website and and paypal and just people mailing and we've been using them to help people who were affected by the storm.

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Some basically lost their house or just serious damage just flooded, had to throw everything out on the curb basically and stay somewhere else, wear masks to go in.

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It just is it's been an unbelievable sight that the city has been rapidly rebuilding and encouraged by just winning the world series that was a nice little morale booster.

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Well and could you be a little bit more detailed about the theological background of the

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Copperfield Bible Church? Sure I'd be happy to. I don't know the detailed history but when

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I got here it was about the same place that I was myself. I call myself a

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Calvadispi -baptigelical. Say that three times fast.

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Say that one time fast. But in other words I affirm the doctrines of grace and the solas and I believe in the baptistic credo baptism approach to baptism and I'm a dispensationalist.

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So kind of independently I got to the same place where John MacArthur is but maybe it's because we both came from Talbot Seminary but maybe it's because we read the same

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Bible. At least that's what I hope as far as I can make it before God.

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But it's always been a Bible teaching church and just emphasizing the exposition of scripture and so I'm very very glad to keep in that tradition.

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Yes well one of the key sponsors of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is a former adjunct professor at Talbot.

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His name is Ron Glass and he is currently pastoring and has been pastoring for many years the

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Wading River Baptist Church in Suffolk County Long Island New York and he is a dear brother in Christ.

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He would share both your Calvinistic and your dispensationalist leanings and he knows that I am not a dispensationalist.

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He knows that I am a thoroughgoing Calvinist but not a dispensationalist and yet he still loves this program so much that he is one of the primary people that have not only supported this program financially but he also has been personally a spiritual and mental and emotional boost to my life and has been a constant source of encouragement to me and was really the primary person that pushed me to relaunch this program after I relocated from New York to Pennsylvania and I was still in the depths of grief after losing my wife and Pastor Ron Glass was definitely in the forefront of those urging me to get back on the air, get back in the saddle as they say and I am forever indebted to him.

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He's a dear brother in Christ. In fact, Reverend Buzz Taylor and I edit his sermons.

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We have to break them in half so that they fit in two weeks worth of radio broadcasts because it's a half -hour radio broadcast and so we edit.

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His program is called the River of Life program which can be heard on faith radio.

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It's also known as Eastgate Broadcasting and not only is heard on Long Island but it's heard globally on the internet but he is like I keep repeating a dear dear friend and a key sponsor of this broadcast.

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Well you have a very interesting theme that you wanted us to discuss today.

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Biblical preaching supernatural not magical and perhaps a good way to start today would be to have you give a definition of what you mean by supernatural in comparison or contrasted with magical and I know that there are probably going to be those in the

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Roman Catholic Church and perhaps Eastern Orthodoxy who would find it very offensive to hear some of their practices described as magical not that we would actually believe that they are magical but I think that that is a more fit description or definition of what they think they are accomplishing during their rituals and rites and ceremonies than what the

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Bible would define as supernatural. But anyway if you could give us a comparison and contrast between supernatural and magical.

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Sure I'd be happy to. I am as you said probably best known through blogging at Pyromaniacs but now my articles are appearing at a site called

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EJ Media and this is a couple of columns that I've got there. Well actually the

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Catholic Church itself speaks of its practices some of its rituals as being ex operato which means done by the doing.

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In other words if you perform it correctly then it produces a spiritual result. So obviously a baby who's having water sprinkled on it is not believing anything or committing anything or understanding anything except that it's wet which happens a lot to babies and it doesn't know that this is a different supposed to be a different kind of wetness than the usual wetness and yet to the

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Roman Catholic Church a spiritual significance is attached to that partaking of mass as a spiritual benefit they think.

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It's sort of and what makes that akin to magic is that the idea of magic the central idea of magic is that if you perform the ritual the right way if you offer the right sacrifices use the right gestures use the right words then you're going to produce a spiritual effect.

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That's magic. Magic is the idea of manipulating supernatural forces of manipulating the gods or the demons or the spirits by the right kinds of rituals the right kind of approach.

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Now supernatural the Bible is supernatural which is to say it's not just the operation of natural laws it's not just a book we believe that Hebrews 4 12 says the word of God is living and active and sharp beyond any two -edged sword we believe that God gives life through his word we believe that the gospel which is a message it's news it is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe so we believe the

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Bible definitely is a book unlike any other and that is God breathed as 2nd

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Timothy 3 16 says it is the very words of God to us.

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So what I'm trying to point out though is that I think that unintentionally many people who would in no way think of themselves as Roman Catholic and and who would absolutely disown paganism and magic probably not even read

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Harry Potter have that kind of an attitude when it comes to church and to the preaching of the word they have an attitude towards the preaching of the word that is almost magical.

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Now just to retrace a couple of things that you said there are those who are even amongst the ranks of Reformed Baptists and Calvinistic Presbyterians of fact

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I would say I'm imagining most Presbyterians would be Calvinistic but there are some that are not the the

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Cumberland Presbyterian denomination is actually Arminian but anyway the there are there are

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Calvinists or Sovereign Grace believing Christians or Reformed Christians who believe that something spiritual is going on in the ordinances of of baptism in the

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Lord's Supper they don't think that they are only pictures and symbols and memorials and so on they think that there is some significance but there is something unique that would far separate the

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Reformed and Biblical understanding of the ordinances specifically even though there's disagreement amongst even those under the umbrella of Reformed Faith or Sovereign Grace or Calvinism but you have in the

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Church of Rome the teaching of baptismal regeneration which some of our

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Anglican friends believe and our Lutheran friends believe Lutherans tend to be right on a lot of things but I think they're they're dead wrong on that one but what becomes even more bizarre with the

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Roman Catholic Church that even is more descriptive of what might be called magical is their understanding of priestly powers because the

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Roman Catholic Church teaches that even if a man is so unrepentant in wickedness and perhaps even heresy that they find no other way of dealing with the situation other than removing him and stripping him of his orders and or perhaps he voluntarily leaves perhaps even for a good reason like my friend

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Richard Bennett who was born again as a

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Roman Catholic priest as a Jesuit and he immediately or I shouldn't say immediately but he in time abandoned the

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Roman Catholic Church and for decades since the 1970s has been a

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Reformed Baptist evangelist but they would consider those people who have either been excommunicated or who are voluntarily abandoned

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Roman Catholicism they would consider those people still in possession of their priestly powers and the

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Roman Catholic Church views these people as very dangerous because they know in their minds of course we don't believe that this is actually happening but they but they believe in their minds and according to their doctrine that these individuals can still transform bread and wine into the actual body and blood of Christ and they're terrified as to what these quote -quote heretics or apostates will do with those elements have you uh yeah do you know the origin of the phrase focus focus yes that's the latin phrase for when the the hosts and the wine are consecrated right and the latin phrase it memory serves is focus corpus meum focus corpus meum it just got twisted to hope this focus because focus focus is a magical you know

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I'm going to pull a rabbit out of the hat and hocus corpus meum is supposed to transform bread and wine into body and blood or even more

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I think to me one of the most jaw -dropping things I could not believe when somebody first told me about this is the scapular the scap right the perfect example of it here is an article of clothing that actually says whosoever dies wearing this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire right

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I remember as a child uh my parents would have my siblings and I wear them and for some reason uh as we grew older they kind of got out of fashion and you didn't see them anymore but I can still remember that you'd go into the shower with it well yeah oh

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I'd say a worse story though I had a friend whose unrepentant unbelieving roman catholic father was dying and the priest came in and laid the scapular on him and kind of with a wink said that he'd specially blessed it so here's this man who has no more interest in christ than than the keyboard

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I'm looking at less but he's being assured by this priest that because this article of clothing is resting on his body he won't go to hell now if that's not magic but but what

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I'm saying is that I think that some even in our more in our camp doctrinally have unintentionally come to see bible preaching as similar and of and of course even before we go into that uh what they call miraculous medals uh are in uh are distributed uh by catholics to both fellow catholics and non -catholics alike they'll they'll give them out uh and and tell people that this will protect them and bless them and and of course uh many people remember the saint christopher statues or medals on the dashboards of cars because he was apparently the patron saint of traveling mercies and there uh after vatican ii seeing he seems to have fallen out of favor uh because they the catholic church was

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I think too embarrassed by the mythological story of saint christopher so they came to uh distance themselves from him uh rejecting the notion that he was a real person i'm talking about your more moderate vatican ii catholics but but reverend buzz taylor yeah i've never been a catholic so you have to define that term for me what what did you mean by scapula scapula it's like a necklace that's made out of cloth and it's blessed and anything further you have to add to that uh dan no scapular s -c -a -p -u -l -a -r yeah it's like a square of cloth but it has those words that i read on it i think it's associated with some appearance of mary supposedly or something just regardless i remember i was in dialogue trying to witness a group of catholics online and i thought if i told them this surely they would say no you're kidding we we don't believe that we can't possibly but they all said oh yeah that's lovely that's a wonderful thing that's a great story that you told about your friend's dad in the hospital and i just thought wow if anything illustrates the the chasm between biblical christianity and roman catholicism it's got to be the scapular the scapular just it just is the quintessence of the difference between magic and biblical faith and of course uh before we move into our own camp uh those who would be in many ways theologically sound but unconsciously or imitating error let's address a bit the heresies that exist within the word of faith movement and some of the fringe elements of pentecostalism and the charismatic movement and i have to be very careful not to broad brush because i have dear brothers in christ who i disagree with on the perpetuity of the sign gifts uh who some of them otherwise would if you walked into their places of worship you would think that you had entered into a reformed baptist or presbyterian church because some of them are very orderly services they're very some of them are very reserved and using uh god glorifying hymnody and so on and then you know you have all different varying degrees of the attempt to in their minds manifest supernatural experiences in the assembly but going back to things like the scapula and the miraculous metals you will see routinely charlatans on television and you will hear them on the radio uh offering uh to you know send you blessed handkerchiefs and all kinds of bizarre things that will apparently according to them give you a healing or a blessing if you give them money of course i mean that that is very uh inseparable from uh really indulgences it's just a a modern evangelical version of indulgences isn't it yeah i i can't bring any from memory but yes i've seen ads from these big names in the charismatic camp offering blessings for money but again of course you give so much money you'll have so much blessing and uh the reverend buzz i've got to share this story with you it's so pertinent to what you're saying but back in it was back in the 80s um i received a mailing from arnold roberts and it was a kernel of corn like like indian corn but you know a very large dried kernel of corn and of course it was representative of seed faith and i was supposed to send that that uh you know seed back to him uh i guess you know with with the proper check with the decimal point in the right place and all that stuff and i would be blessed i would receive my miracle the following month i got a little flask like you get the perfume samples in and it was empty and the letter said you send that back with your check and he will fill it with oil that his hands anointed his personal hands anointed this oil and i thought this is really great one month they send me the popcorn next month they send me the oil but it would take you a long time to fill a bucket with that method but anyway uh so uh so it's like the widow's pot of oil yes right like a widow's envelope of oil yes so uh and of course these these things that you would define as magic not that you believe that they are really occurring uh but but the things that the way that they are defined resemble what is more likely associated with magic than than supernatural uh you have really like a magical spell as as long as the words are correct and as long as whatever else according to the formula of a certain rite or ceremony is performed you will have this uh magical spell bringing about whatever uh the false church whether it be rome or anyone else is declaring it will produce right it really all goes to the the human religion uh in the kingdom of man of works everything is works so in this case you you say the words right you do the gestures right you rituals right and you control the supernatural in effect and when we come back from our first break you're going to uh go into how we who are in a camp that is very conservative very committed to biblical inerrancy typically uh cessationist in our understandings of sign gifts believing that they are not active today i mean even the most ardent cessationist believes that god performs miracles and heals people but there's a difference between that and modern day healers human beings that would be healers but we're going to be going into how unconsciously people in our camp may be seduced or deceived uh into some kind of a thinking that would resemble magic rather than supernatural if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for dan phillips our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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c h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the usa and as i said before please only remain anonymous if it is a in regard to a personal and private matter over which you are asking and uh we will uh we will uh grant your request to remain anonymous if it is such a personal and private issue but otherwise please give us your first name city and state and country of residence and don't go away god willing right after these messages we'll be back with dan phillips and more of our discussion for the day i am chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a christian perspective try world at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of r .c

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well we are now back to our discussion with our guest dan phillips he is the pastor at copperfield bible church in houston texas he's an author and we are discussing biblical preaching supernatural not magical if you have a question please send it to chris arnzen at gmail .com

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com and give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the usa you know some people might be wondering why i keep repeating all of that you will be surprised how many emails we get that still don't have any city state or country and they're not even asking personal questions so we want our listeners to know that there are brothers and sisters in christ all over the world listening to this program so we want you to identify where you are located in fact it's not only brothers and sisters in christ we occasionally have muslims uh writing in that it is rare but it does it has happened and atheists and people of other religions so uh and atheism is a religion by the way whether you recognize that or not uh but we would love to hear from you with a question and going back to our theme dan we were going into before the break how there are unbiblical even heretical concepts of the supernatural when it is in the hands or minds or pulpits of those in false religions that uh really uh describe is a better description of the magical of perhaps even the the the dark magic arts or the occult than it would be uh the supernatural experiences and occurrences that we read about in the scripture that are actually the result of god operating and functioning functioning in the midst of his people but we also now we are going into more of the area of how people could have very sound theology that might be in biblically sound churches with biblically sound pastors uh and they may be may write on a lot of things but they may subconsciously be seduced into a an erroneous thinking in this regard if you could explain in the area of preaching exactly in detail what you mean i'd be very happy to um almost everything bad and certainly the most harmful things are a perversion of at least a grain of truth in this case there's a whole lot more than the grain it's true that the bible is a supernatural book it's living it's powerful uh it's the power of god the salvation the gospel is um and it's god breathed so god speaks in scripture but what what i see and what i'm talking about is that people put such a stress on the preaching of the word the preaching of the word the preaching of the word that i think unconsciously many are good for the idea that if somebody will just preach the word faithfully wonderful things will happen i'm looking at some examples here i want to try to reword them because i don't want anybody to try to locate these online my point is not to pick out the people who said this but here's a tweet that says that the that the reformation at its heart was a proclamation of the word of god and that the reformation was a revival of preaching now let me let me copy a couple that with one other paraphrase of a place that is looking to train uh pastors because we're living in a day when there's a famine in the land for hearing god's word so they want to make people who will stand the pulpit men will stand the public pulpit with a high standard of biblical exposition if we are to see a new reformation in this day there must first be a reformation of the pulpit only then can the church experience transcendent worship authentic godliness and true evangelism now as far as that goes of course i would entirely agree i've written a lot on it i've been gripped by this for decades that above all the pulpit must be a place where the word of god is preached but there is such a stress on preaching that you can get the impression that if that happens then revival is just going to happen that wonderful things are just going to happen people are going to be converted that if a man's faithfully preaching the word he's going to have a large church filled with people and and but all that matters and what matters most is the preaching of the word of god even luther is commonly quoted um he says i did nothing the word did it all and in what he means of course i agree with him but he didn't just preach and then magic broke out he preached and people heard and believed and acted on it and the reformation happened because men got in the pulpit and they preached the word of god and the people heard it they believed it and they acted on it and revival happened when men got into the word into the pulpit and preached the gospel preached the word of god and people heard it and they took it to heart believed it and acted on it and it's ironic that one of the central truths of the reformation is the the truth of the priesthood of all believers the fact that the clergy is not a superhuman class that stands above everyone else that we're all priests to god and yet when it comes to this it's almost as if a man if a man preaches right then things just happen without an equal corresponding stress that not only must there be biblical preaching there must be biblical listening there must be biblical hearing there must be biblical receiving believing responding and acting you see what i'm saying oh yeah in fact um i'm sure that you would agree that coupled with that is that uh the old saying is true that you can't just talk the talk you've got to walk the walk and if we have the most brilliant of bible expositors from behind pulpits who do nothing but teach and their lives do not reflect the love compassion and uh concern uh for the lost and for the the caring of the flock uh you're just going to be nothing more than a classroom of being lectured and there's not going to be uh much else going on but heads being filled with knowledge you're going to have people who are going to imitate their own pastors who may be only about teaching and preaching but but are not living out what they exactly uh what they are uh all about as far as what they're exegeting from the bible well then let me take something from that because of course i agree with what you just said but i still let me turn that a little bit you can have a pastor who is godly and lives out to the best that a fallen man can do a redeemed sinner can do he lives out what he preaches he loves his people he pours his heart into his ministry he preaches the word of god but if they don't receive it and believe it and act on it then still there's that what is it judges five says that the leaders led that the people volunteered praise the lord there's those two aspects to it the pastor is not a magic man he can't make revival happen he can't make a church grow right he can just like in there are people who if i can change the application of it and the idea of parenting and there have been many christians who've written books that give the impression that if you just do parenting right you are going to produce godly mature children if you work the formula right if you do this this and this your children and if they don't grow to be godly it's because you didn't work the formula right but as i point out a number of times in my book on proverbs if that's the case then why is proverbs filled with listen my son let my take my words and write them on the tablet of your heart uh give me your ear incline your ear don't turn away from my wisdom and on and on and on well if it was just magic say that you just say god's word and the kid would grow right right so if the pastor has that power you just get up and preach as if spurgeon just got up and preached the right sermons and magic happened that spurgeon was a phenomenal individual but he didn't staff all those orphanages and and get all the works of charity going single -handedly it was people who heard the word of god and acted on it in addition to him being just a freak of grace please hopefully himself yeah and of course we can't forget that uh jacob and esau had the same parents so obviously there were different uh results in the lives of those two and uh that's a reminder that uh there are no uh grandchildren in in heaven or should i say god has no grandchildren i don't mean that if your grandchildren pass away they won't be in heaven i mean what i mean is god has no grandchildren is what was a better way of phrasing it because uh uh because of the fact that uh there are elect and reprobate very often found in the same family uh as much as some people might think that we can just populate the earth with christians by breeding but anyway uh yeah reverend buzz taylor am i hearing you say that we're still dependent on the sovereignty of god oh absolutely we're absolutely dependent on the sovereignty of god but but also god in his word he filled us his word with commands to us and exhortations to us to listen i mean maybe you know every time in the old testament i think probably every time that the word obey occurs it's just the hebrew word shamak listen hear and so again and again in the old testament they're exhorted of the need to hear the word of god uh to act on it to listen to it not just to let their eardrums be um vibrated by it i i point to deuteronomy 28 1 if you will well the hebrew literally says if hearing you will hear the voice of the lord your god being careful to do all his commandments that i command you today the lord will set you high above all the nations but they had to hear it it was god's very word but what does hebrews 4 say that they heard the word of god but it didn't do them any good why didn't it do them any good because they didn't unite with faith that those who listen to the word you've got to listen to the word of god what a pressure that puts on pastors no matter no wonder so many pastors break up because it's expected that they will produce church growth and spiritual growth and evangelism and everything rather than what the what the bible says which is ephesians 4 11 that they uh train the saints to do the work of service they serve also they're kind of like player managers right but they train the saints by teaching on the word of god i think many churches admire um the living john macarthur and the memory of charles spurgeon and they think boy if we just get a bible teaching pastor in that pulpit just like the quotations i just read to you we get a preaching of the word of god in the pulpit and wonderful things are going to happen while we watch them happen but no the word of god calls us all to to god to engage his word and to get up and start putting into practice what we're hearing from his word yeah christianity isn't just a spectator sport i think is what you're saying absolutely and uh i have to be careful in what i'm about to say because i don't want anybody to think again that i'm broad brushing i don't even know what uh philosophy of apologetics that you would hear to perhaps you don't even adhere to just one of those uh different varying approaches to apologetics uh perhaps you have a combination but it seems that what what has what i have witnessed that has been all too often a common thing amongst those who are evidentialists and they're apologetics and like i said i have to be careful because even some heroes of mine like r .c

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sprawl and dr the late dr john gerstner was an evidentialist but there are some evidentialists that i have heard who will basically tell a crowd that they are lecturing that if you explain the faith in this way and defend it in this way and if you answer objections in this way you are definitely going to win people to christ as a result that is going to be the product uh if you handle this information correctly the result is that a lost person that you're talking to with certainty is going to be saved and that is a very uh arminian understanding of of humanity it totally uh yeah it removes the fact that the holy spirit must transform a dead sinner before he even believes it doesn't even address the fact that christ has to give lost people new hearts and so on and there is a group of humanity that we don't know who they are but there is a group of humanity that are reprobate and uh who will never come to the truth of the uh of the word of god or never embrace it and we have to be careful as calvinists not to think that we know who the elect are and who the reprobate are because the elect are amongst the most pious of pastors and the most perverse of prostitutes so you know there are people on death row who are of the elect uh who have come to christ while they are behind bars awaiting their death sentences so i mean but that's at the same time this notion that really really even if somebody doesn't consciously write this on paper as a creedal statement they are really viewing mankind as being morally neutral aren't they right but there was even a thief hanging on a cross once in his elect and only found that out in the last moments of his life that's right um that that's absolutely true that don't by the way i'm deeply offended i'm going to be hanging up after this answer but no i'm a i'm basically a vampilion as well but you're right there are lots of people there are lots of presentations that are very formulaic but the thing is what i'm suggesting particularly is that i'm talking in -house those of us who are basically reformed and have a high view of the word of god but we can have almost i want to say this carefully and explain myself too high of a view of the word of god if by that we think that biblical preaching is ex opera operato then if i just get up and preach the word faithfully god will bless how many times do i hear that in seminary well i do believe that god blesses when he preaches word but sometimes he he blesses by hardening the hearts who won't listen he glorifies himself i should say blesses the pastor for his faithful preaching but i'm afraid and this is this is my most painful statement for what i think well -meaning people do is they they get themselves a biblical preacher and they what they really like to do is come and watch and talk about that once a week and agree with everything he said and the way i see it i was thinking about this morning as i was thinking about talking with you and praying i thought it's kind of like in church what the pastor is doing is he is giving living plants to the people who come and they need to take them home and plant them and water them and feed them and tend them and get fruit out of them right but what instead happens is a lot of them are left sitting in the pews dying or they're left in the parking lot they don't they don't ever touch them because they think just by the holding out of the plant something spiritual has happened but no we're called on well you go to hebrews chapter three verses seven and following where the writer says that the holy spirit says today if you hear his voice don't harden your heart and what he's doing is he's quoting from the psalms but he's saying that is the voice of the holy spirit and the voice of the holy spirit is the word of god and the holy spirit says to us if you hear the word of god don't harden your heart well what that means is not gee if i if i feel like god's talking to me but it means if i'm being addressed by scripture then i need not to harden my heart i've only got two choices when i'm hearing god's word i either harden my heart or accept it in faith and act on it and as affirming the priesthood of all believers i need to i need to have the awareness that every time i encounter the word of god it is a crisis moment it's a moment of judgment i am hearing god speaking to me whether it's me reading the word of god alone in the morning or the evening or whether it's me sitting with god's people hearing it preached god is talking to me now obviously if there was a pillar of fire there i'd be at full attention right but this is not different except for the visual effect this is not different every time god's word addresses me it's god speaking to me but do people have that mindset in church do they do they go with that expectation do they prepare as if that's going to happen go with that expectation listen as if that's what's happening and then go away as if that is what has happened and do we approach our personal reading that way if we don't then i'm afraid we've slipped into this magical mentality that that just opera ex opera operato if the words preach what good things are going to happen to me i have my verbal rabbits foot well before we go to the a break i want to uh read a scripture to you and have you respond to that when you when we return i'll tell you right now i agree with it well as far as how we apply it to our discussion because it because it may seem it may seem on the surface like it is in contradiction to what you're saying isaiah 55 11 so will my word be which goes forth from my mouth it will not return to me without accomplishing what i desire and without succeeding in the matter for which i sent it if you could address that when we come back from the break and if anybody would like to join us this is a longer break than normal because grace life radio in lake city florida requires that we have a 12 minute break in between the two hours so please be patient with us as we go to this break and and while you are in the middle of this break please write your questions in and send them to chrisorensen at gmail .com

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chris a r n z e n gmail .com please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old usa and only remain anonymous if it's if it is about a personal and private matter over which you are asking don't go away god willing we will be right back after these messages from our sponsors financial is not your typical financial services provider as a membership organization we help christians be wise with money and live generously every day and for the fourth year in a row we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the ethosphere institute a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation advancement and sharing of best practices in business ethics contact me mike gallagher financial consultant at 717 -254 -6433 again 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the thriving we know we were made for so much more than ordinary life lending faith finances and generosity that's the thriving story we were made to thrive chef exclusive catering is in south central pennsylvania chef exclusives goal is to provide a dining experience that is sure to please any palate chef danian white of chef exclusive is a graduate of the renowned johnson and wales university with a degree in culinary arts and applied science chef exclusive caterings event center is newly designed with elegance and style and is available for small office gatherings bridal showers engagement parties and rehearsal dinners critics and guests alike acknowledge chef exclusives commitment to exceeding even the highest expectations i know of their quality firsthand since chef exclusive catered by most recent iron sharpens iron radio pastor's luncheon for details call 717 -388 -3000 that's 717 -388 -3000 or visit chef exclusive .com

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that's chef exclusive .com charles heddens virgin once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since it's beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

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that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio paul wrote to the church at galatia for am i now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying to please man if i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ hi i'm mark lukens pastor of providence baptist church we are reformed baptist church and we hold to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689 we are in nofolk massachusetts we strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either we believe by god's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of christ in truth and love if you live near norfolk massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship you can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our tv program entitled resting in grace you can find us at providence baptist church ma .org

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hcbible .org call 609 -494 -5689 609 -494 -5689 harvey cedars where christ finds people and changes lives linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be call linbrook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

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that's linbrookbaptist .org hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

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eastern time on wlie radio www .wlie540am .com

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we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor welcome back this is chris arnson if you just tuned in to iron sharpens iron radio our guest today for the full two hours is dan phillips he is an author and he's the pastor of copperfield bible church in houston texas we are addressing the theme biblical preaching supernatural not magical if you have a question for dan please send us an email to chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris a r n z e n at gmail .com please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the usa and only remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter over which you are asking before i return to dan i just have some important announcements to make in regard to special events that are coming up that we don't want you in the audience to miss out on if you're able to attend them first of all this sunday november 5th at 9 30 a .m

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and 10 30 a .m at the sovereign grace family church in jacksonville florida there is a reformation celebration featuring david burke and mike gadosh as the guest speakers mike gadosh is my very or should i say was my very first pastor after uh being born from above after being born again he was uh my very first evangelical pastor bible believing christian pastor after having been rescued out of roman catholicism and uh i thank uh god for mike gadosh he is truly and i'm not saying this uh through any sort of flattery or exaggeration uh he is one of the finest preachers i have ever heard in my life uh he is absolutely remarkable and if you live near jacksonville florida or if you have the means to get there even if you don't live near there i would strongly urge you to try to get there this sunday november 5th and uh as i said he will be joined by david burke for this reformation celebration at sovereign grace family church in jacksonville florida 9 30 a .m

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and 10 30 a .m and there's a fellowship meal and family activities following if you want more details call sovereign grace family church of jacksonville florida at 904 -757 -1800 904 -757 -1800 and you could also visit their website which is s g f c jacks .org

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that's s g for sovereign grace f c for family church jacks j a x dot org and then coming up later this month our friends at the alliance of confessing evangelicals are going to be conducting their annual uh conference their quaker town a conference on reform theology it is not the reform town conference on quaker theology it's the quaker town conference on reform theology at grace bible fellowship church in quaker town pennsylvania the theme is for still our ancient foe and this is in reference to satan from that classic reformation hymn by martin luther or mighty fortress and the speakers include kent hughes peter jones tom nettles dennis cahill and scott oliphant that's november 17th through the 18th if you would like to register go to alliance net .org

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alliance net .org click on events and then click on quaker town conference on reform theology god willing the reverend buzz taylor my co -host and i will be manning a exhibitors booth for iron sharpens iron radio at the grace bible fellowship church where this conference is being conducted so we look forward to seeing many of you there november 17th through the 18th and then coming up in january from the 17th through the 20th of january the g3 conference returns to atlanta georgia on the theme knowing god a biblical understanding of discipleship the 17th is exclusively a spanish speaking edition of the conference and the 18th through the 20th is exclusively an english speaking conference featuring such guest speakers as stephen lawson vody baucom phil johnson keith getty hb charles jr tim challis josh byas james white tom askell anthony methenia michael kruger david miller paul trip todd friel derrick thomas martha peace and justin peters if you'd like to register for the g3 conference go to g3 conference .com

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g3 conference .com and please if you register for any of these events or if you're merely contacting these organizations running the events to find out more information please always say that you heard about those events from chris arnzen on iron trip and zion radio last but not least once again i have to rattle my tin cup and beg you for money because iron trip and zion radio is in a very precarious position financially we urgently need new benefactors and advertisers in order to remain on the air i thank god that a small stream of donations have started to come in again and i thank you more than i could possibly explain or describe to you in the english language i am so grateful to god for you and your generosity when i see those checks coming in i realize how much iron trip and zion radio means to some of you and if it really does mean a lot to you if you don't want it to disappear if you are edified by the topics and guests if you look forward to this program whether you listen to it live or whether you listen to the archived mp3s or podcasts and you don't want this to disappear forever please consider donating to iron sharpens iron radio by going to iron sharpens iron radio .com

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click on support you'll be given an address a mailing address where you can mail a check made payable to iron sharpens iron radio for any amount that you can afford never ever ever ever siphon money out of the regular giving you are accustomed to with your local congregation where you are a member if you're not a member of a local congregation you are living in disobedience and you really have to rectify that and uh but please never siphon money out of your giving to your church and never take food off of your family's dinner table if you're struggling to make ends meet uh but if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands providing for your family and your church then please consider donating to iron sharpens iron radio and if you want to advertise with us as long as whatever it is your advertising is compatible with the theology expressed on iron sharpens iron radio we would love to work out an ad campaign with you you don't have to believe exactly like i do but your theology or whatever it is you're advertising has to be compatible with the theology i mean obviously some things you may want to advertise have no theological import to them perhaps you are wanting to advertise a business that you have or a professional firm like a law firm or a medical or dental practice or some kind of a special event that you're having as long as it's compatible with what we believe here we would love to speak with you send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line and as always please pray that we receive the required funds in order to remain on the air uh we are already uh behind in our bills and uh several months behind in our live streaming bills so please help us out if you want us to remain on the air well uh dan phillips we are now back to our conversation about biblical preaching supernatural not magical and before the break i read to you isaiah 55 11 which reads so will my word be which goes forth from my mouth it will not return to me empty without accomplishing what i desire and without succeeding in matter for which in the matter for which i sent it now some might on the surface hear that and they might have even remembered that from their own study of the bible and they may think that you are contradicting that but that's not true is it oh no in no way um what he's talking about there is the fact that he's going to do what just read on to the end of the next verse the next verse is four you shall go out and join and be led forth in peace the mountains and the hills before you shall break forth into singing and all the trees of the fields should clap their hands so israel's end will not be in captivity but it will be in the full realization of all of god's promises that he is saying he is going to do what he says he's going to do his word will always come true but as to what how we must respond to his word you just go up to the start of that same chapter and you look in isaiah 55 verse 2 he says midway through that verse listen diligently to me and eat what is good and delight yourselves in rich food incline your ear and come to me here that your soul may live and i will make with you an everlasting covenant my steadfast sure love for david so he's going to do his side he's going to do his word but if i want to experience blessing of god's word i must receive it in faith i must as hebrews 4 says not come short i must not think that merely hearing the word means anything if i don't believe the word what does hebrews 4 1 say um actually 4 2 for good news came to us just as to them but the message they heard did not benefit them because they were not united by faith with those who listen so yeah the pulpit needs to be filled with the preaching of the word of god and the other side of the pulpit the congregation needs to be filled with people who have prepared themselves to hear the word of god and are actively hearing and remembering and believing and revving up to act on the word of god we have a listener um let's see here we have we have christian uh christian who is in suffolk county long island new york who says if i'm understanding you correctly you are saying that there is a responsibility for those who are the ordinary christians but at the same time aren't there direct promises that we who are believers in sovereign grace can cling to knowing that his elect will be out there and will with certainty respond to the gospel message and that is why in the book of revelation we know that there will be those from out of every people and tribe and tongue and nation worshiping the lamb we have a promise that our evangelistic efforts and missionary endeavors will not be in vain even if we don't witness any fruit being born from those efforts personally amen um absolutely i absolutely do believe in that of course but at the same time that does not remove the responsibility we have to hear the word of god i mean the message of the gospel is not okay here's what jesus did now figure out whether you're elect or not and if you are you're going to be a believer right the message of the gospel is believe in the lord jesus christ and you will be saved um the the the faith that we share with the prophets and the apostles in the sovereignty of god never moved them to be um oh which should i say quietistic or passive uh in their pleading with people i mean the prophets say why will you turn and they depict god as weeping and jesus walked over jerusalem um because the leaders wouldn't let their the children come and respond to the word so scripture is is filled with preachers who plead with the hearers to hear and to respond and i take it that of course as all calvinists believe god works through means he works through the preaching of his word but not in an automatic way not in a way that that does not require my response or else as i said there just wouldn't be all those passages that call on us to respond and that put it on us to respond and that warn us about what will happen if we don't respond what about jesus letters to the churches seven times in revelation he dictates letters to the churches and what does he say let those who have ears hear what the spirit is saying to the churches he doesn't say don't worry about this because if you have ears the spirit will make sure that you automatically do this right he addresses them and calls on them to hear what he's saying and the reverend buzz taylor the reverend buzz taylor has something that you were mentioning it's exactly like you were saying about uh putting your isaiah text there into context uh jesus is saying in john chapter six that he is going to do what he said he was going to do it's going to be accomplished those whom the father gave me i will not lose one but i will i will raise him up on the last day just like israel would be restored into more glory and so forth and my sheep will hear my voice i know them and they will follow me and you know the whole thing i mean the you can get down to saying the whole of the historical books is to show that god is going to accomplish what he said because he said to abraham this is what's going to happen it's going to be yours you know your seed meaning christ that through the him the nations of the earth will be blessed so it the whole thing is again god's uh faithfulness to what he says he's going to accomplish amen he's going to be faithful to what he accomplishes but it's not our part to try to read his hearts right it's not i'm not held responsible for peeking around and seeing what his sovereign determination is except insofar as he's revealed it in scripture i am held responsible for responding what he addresses to me and he addresses a whole lot of things to me right and to you to you brothers as well calling on us to believe calling us to love each other strenuously calling on us to weep with those who weep and rejoice for those who rejoice and bear the burdens of others and to hold out the word of life to our lost generation and i'm sure you guys could double what i'm saying yourselves but none of these is addressed to the holy spirit they're addressed by the holy spirit to us and how can i respond by the holy spirit in me having produced having freed me from sin and working in my mind as romans 8 says to produce life and peace but so to produce in me a heart that loves god's word and wants to respond to it but not in producing a quietism that that just sort of sits and figures well god's just going to do what god's going to do while i watch right well you you're not only describing quietism but you perhaps are also describing hyper calvinism and and are those who are in opposition to the doctrines of sovereign grace will typically broad brush all of us who claim to believe in the the quote quote five points of calvinism they will say they will they will deduce from what we teach and declare and explain that we are waiting for god to zap us and zap others but that's not at all what historically those who have believed in the reformed faith have taught or acted upon right and and we just want to make sure that we don't give any kindling for their fire right we don't want to live up to the caricature of us as being uh passive uh do nothing to just expect the everything in our place he doesn't do it in our place he does it in our heart he does it through us by addressing and transforming our wills um we're going to talk about the the second article that i wrote the follow -up about how to yes active literacy of the word excellent just one i don't want to mess up your well why don't you begin uh explaining that right now because the time is going to fly by quicker than you it always does yeah it goes by very fast well i wrote a second article titled how to hear god's voice that basically builds on the first at pj media and um is meant to show some practical takeaways for how we can make sure that we are engaged believing christian and not just um passive spectators or or acting as if we um informally expect something magical to happen in worship first i say we've got to be born again because that's just that is the starting place the natural man does not welcome the things of the spirit of god um we we naturally hate god's word we naturally don't understand god's word so first of all we do need that sovereign work of god's spirit transforming our hearts but that isn't the end of it um we also call on to to continually pray like the psalmist prays in psalm 119 open my eyes that i may behold wondrous things out of your law the wondrous things are there but i i can miss them i'm sure both your brothers have experienced it as i have that you you read a passage a dozen times 50 times and on the 51st time you realize there's something there that was there all alone but you simply had not made that connection or you go hear the word open in a good sermon and and you hear something open that you haven't seen but you've got to be listening we've got to be in a spiritually receptive frame and so we ask for god to to do this paul tells timothy to think about what he wrote to him and the lord will give him understanding as he does that so we need to to be prayerful and look to god to continue to speak to us through his word i say that if you're in a church that is teaching expositionally and the nice thing about that is if you were in verse three last week you're probably going to be in verse four next week unless it's me sometimes i might be in verse three both weeks but you have a pretty good idea of where you're going to be next you can read and get the get your sanctified mind primed get some questions of your own i'm ready to hear uh in an engaged way and then the fourth thing that i say is uh may not sound very spiritual but it's uh too often neglected get a good sleep i can't you know i'm sure many pastors look out and they see people sleeping in the congregation um and you think okay when did you get to bed um how seriously did you take your part what would people think if i were preaching and i were falling asleep while i preached that'd be pretty bad but if we believe in the priesthood of believers right that we're all priests to god why is it okay for sleep on one side of the pulpit but it's not at all okay on the other side of the pulpit they expect me to be and unless i'm sick or something they expect me to be on my game and speaking in a in every pastor to be on his game to be speaking in an animated engaged way but what i'm saying is that this is a congregational uh effort and we all need to come ready to hear the word of god it's part of our showing love for god it's part of showing that we take seriously the hearing of his word so people need to come rested and ready to hear the word um i also suggest that people arrive early um i i know people manage to make it to movies before they start they manage to make it to their doctor's appointments before they get charged they've managed to make it into work and not get fired but many people maybe don't take arriving before the service starts equally seriously but if if you have selected the church that you intend in attend in a biblical way and the leadership crafts a service that isn't filler you know that doesn't have just opening music and credits like a movie that begins worship with the first words like in our church the first words are scripture i get up and i say good morning and and then call the worship by reading a bible verse and then we pray and then we go to singing god's praises there's there's no filler we don't have 13 minutes of elevator music right for the people to to arrive at and i'm sure that most uh evangelical churches if not all are just like that every part of the service is planned to help people to bring people before god to bring all of us before god in worship so we should all be there we should all be there in our places prayed up praying for each other praying for the pastor praying for ourselves not distracting others as we by the way obviously i know things happen i know that kids get sick things break traffic is unexpected i'm not talking about that i'm not talking about things that that come up that nobody can prevent i'm just talking about week after week after week not making it a priority to either with the family to worship with the family as the family worships from start to finish that's part of being an engaged member and considering that i'm a priest no less than the pastor is what would they think the pastor came 10 minutes late or five minutes late every week oh that that would be unacceptable but he's no more priest than the people in the congregation i'm just suggesting that that's part of the part of being engaged and committed as part of the church family do you want me to pause for any interaction with y 'all or i could just keep rattling we have a listener in white plains new york uh rj and i'm looking for rj's question here and uh rj says i know that there are two extremes of looking at family integrated worship where we have a requirement on one extreme that babies who are crying and screaming during a worship service must remain within the sanctuary and then you have the other extreme of unbiblical compartmentation where there are people separated because of age group and other reasons from the gathered assembly but is there a happy medium a biblical balance that can aid us in not being so distracted during our worship services due to children who are either screaming fidgeting or misbehaving i don't mean to sound insensitive but it is something quite concerning to me that does get me to miss out on what is being taught on occasion yeah um that's a good question of course i don't have a an inerrant answer on that but i would say that you just want to apply what's called the golden rule that you do to others as you would want others to do for you um i'm getting over a pretty nasty cold and so i obviously i'm thinking about coughing i've had to mute myself a few times already rather than coughing in your ears and and so if i were in a congregation and i had a coughing spell i wouldn't just sit there and tell myself oh well this is a family experience i'm just helping everybody feel like it's a family experience by drowning out the preacher as i cough i would go out into the lobby and i'd probably cough till the fit passed or if it never passed i might just listen to it from the in the foyer but uh it's part of being part of the family is being considerate for the other members of the family and sometimes if if obviously people can put up with it no for instance i'm going to stay with that i won't feel like every time i cough i need to get out that 30 seconds of coughing or 15 seconds of coughing that happens but if i can't stop yeah so if a kid makes a squawk or if he's having a fidgety period or whatever but it's not really distracting from the preaching of the word that's one thing as opposed to a kid who comes into a full you know cat five meltdown that's a different situation and you're being thoughtful of the other people helping helping your child compose himself we have to go to our final break right now if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own now is the time to do it because we are rapidly running out of time our email address once again is chris arnzen at gmail .com

01:27:40

chris arnzen at gmail .com please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the usa and please only remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter over which you are asking that's chris arnzen at gmail .com

01:28:01

c -h -r -i -s a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com and don't go away god willing we will be back after these messages with dan phillips and more of our discussions so please do not go away iron sharpens iron welcomes solid rock remodeling to our family of sponsors serving south central pennsylvania solid rock remodeling is focused on discovering understanding and exceeding your expectations they deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results solid rock remodeling offers a full range of home renovations including kitchen and bath remodeling decks porches windows and doors roof and siding and more for a clear detailed professional estimate call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand the test of time call solid rock remodeling at 717 -697 -1981 717 -697 -1981 or visit solidrockremodeling .com

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we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor tired of box store christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship and how about the preaching perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from long island well there's good news wading river baptist church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of god's word and this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service 631 -929 -3512 or check out their website at wrbc .us

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you can accomplish uh both uh helping to support cvbbs and also solid grand christian books because cvbbs is not a publisher they are a uh a provider of christian books from a wide spectrum a very wide spectrum of reformed publishers whereas solid grand christian books is a publisher so uh you can get your solid grand christian book titles from cvbbs so perhaps at least include some solid grand christian book titles when you're trying to get take advantage of that offer for fifty dollars or more to receive the legacy of luther that is a reformation trust title by the way uh you'll be getting that for free if you spend fifty dollars or more at cvbbs .com

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and to call cvbbs you can call 800 -656 -0231 toll free 800 -656 -0231 well we are now back for the final 25 minutes or so of our interview with dan phillips he is pastor of copperfield bible church in houston texas and we're talking about biblical preaching supernatural not magical if you'd like to join us uh our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:35:27

chrisarnson at gmail .com and uh please really uh for the sake of recouping here and and clarifying please spell out in as much detail as you can exactly what you are saying because there are things that are a mystery to us uh as fallible and finite people who read a perfect and inerrant word of god the the mystery that lies behind god's complete and total sovereignty will at the same time we are are responsible and accountable uh human beings there is a mystery involved in that tension and some people may be kind of lost in the vocabulary here if you could try to uh precisely uh recount what we've already spoken about and summarize it if you could so you want me to perfectly explain the interaction between god's son i didn't mean perfectly but just try to uh summarize what we were talking about i'd be happy well it's something i feel very keenly because i was saved out of a mystical background i was in a excuse me i'm gonna have to do that thing i talked about meeting myself just a second i'm sorry i was a religious scientist and uh that's a that's sort of a americanized eastern religion new new age and so we believe that we would meditate and that the divine was in all of us and and so forth very very quietistic very mystical and so when the lord saved me he had a lot to change in my thinking and and i had to think things through very carefully so that i didn't import that into my view of christianity so let me just explain it as crisply as i can god is sovereign and he does his will perfectly always at all times psalm 115 verse 3 but our god is in the heavens everything he wishes he does or ephesians 111 he does all things he works all things after the counsel of his own will proverbs that the heart of the king is in the lord's hand he turns it any way he wishes and on and on god is absolutely sovereign but my responsibility is not to second -guess his sovereignty my responsibility is not to put off what he tells me to do onto his sovereignty my responsibility is to listen as a child ask god for the grace to respond in faith and respond in faith so when god says to me husbands love your wives as christ loved the church i don't say boy i rejoice in the sovereignty of god and i will just trust god to work in me as i do whatever i feel like doing to make me that kind of a person no i set myself to saying yes sir yes lord help me to do that please put that love in my heart and help me now what would a loving person do what what does love call me to do for my wife right now what would a loving action be god give me the grace as i do and i seek to respond in faith and obedience and that's a theme that that is often sounded in the new testament no less in the old testament that to hear is to obey but so let me put it crisply again let me try to i you know there's the temptation to say too much let me try to put it real briefly god is responsible for doing what god wishes to do and that's not my responsibility when god addresses me that's my part to hear his word and to seek his grace to obey his word but it's it's on me to do that not none of the commands of the new testament is addressed to the holy spirit you see the holy spirit is not told to love people for me i'm told to love people like peter says strenuously reaching out strenuously to love other people stretching myself to love other people that's a command addressed to me not to the holy spirit but i can only do it because the holy spirit dwells in my heart is that is that responsive to what you're asking yes exactly and and by the way this is uh just out of curiosity um aw pink was in the theosophical society before becoming a born again believer is that something similar to what you were involved in no theosophy is different okay i was just curious i know that i know that that uh that religion that pink was involved in was actually a cult uh and a cult uh religion yes that's occult and the religious science is more like christian science christian science is better known they're similar to each other oh okay uh mary baker eddie involved in both or yeah no no mary morse baker glover patterson eddie is christian science and this was ernest holmes uh peggy lee was a religious scientist robert young was a religious scientist actually do they know those actors yes from father knows best i guess father didn't know best sadly no sadly no and uh well let's see we have uh we have cj and lyndon hearst long island new york who says how can we best prevent not only ourselves but those whom with with sorry those with whom we converse from entering into a lopsided christianity that is either overly man -focused or that removes the responsibility and accountability of man what are we to do to get that balance that seems to be at the heart of what you are talking about did you say his name was cj yes but not cj mahaney well i don't think cj manny's from highland no i don't know you may not be listening either um that's that's a really good question i don't want to blow it off in a simplistic answer it's a great question but my best answer is to and it is a sincere answer this really is not an attempt to blow you off but this is what i do i think so what's in the new testament how do the apostles approach this i can't say how many times i've listened to people going on christians with their theory of spirituality and so forth that ends up being very complex and very involved and i just take a step back and i think okay but what did paul say to the colossians what did he say to the thessalonians did the way he writes it to the uh to the philippians was it that complicated did he tell them to first make sure they went into a you know a trance to make sure they weren't acting in the flesh and that weren't doing this no he just said work out your salvation with fear and trembling because it is god who works in you look to will and to do on behalf of this good pleasure said paul to the apostles they didn't make it a terribly complicated thing i've been crucified with christ i no longer live but the life i live in the flesh i live by faith in the son of god who loved me and gave himself to me so i live yet not i but christ in me but that i live he says first corinthians 15 i worked harder than they all work but not i but the grace of god that was with me you never see any of the apostles themselves going into a a mystical trance trying to determine the depth of their motivation or whether they're on spirit power or flesh power they just look to god trusted his grace and acted on his word and faith when you're when you're not doing it to win god's love it's not legalism you're not doing it to win god's love you're doing it because god already loves you you're not doing it to get saved you're doing it because you've been saved you're not doing it to earn god's grace you're doing it because you've been lavished with god's grace and so having died the sin we live the righteousness in christ romans 6 is really deep but it's also really simple he just says take the parts of your body and present them to god as as instruments of righteousness does that make sense you see yes and it also makes me think uh that expository preaching is very important because of the fact that it prevents i mean nothing is perfect in the hands of a fallible finite sinful person but it prevents uh or at least will better prevent uh from hobby horsing and from a hyper calvinist hobby horsing on uh the sovereignty of god and the powerlessness of humans and it will prevent the arminian from hobby horsing on man's responsibility and accountability and ability uh it will be it will be will drive us to the truth really amen yeah it'll drive us to to stay in scripture because that's the only place where we find god's balance and yeah we can we can mess anything up we'll find a way but if we're going through scripture verse by verse we're going to hit on god's emphases but um i've heard preachers read a whole chapter of the bible and then go off on their own theory of spirituality which is really very complicated and not much like what they just read and so it is i think it's better to stick with it stick with the text where both the preaching of the word of god is central and absolutely necessary but equally the hearing of the word of god if we're going to so stress the the preaching of the word of god without also and equally talking about how to hear in a godly way then we're tilting back towards clericalism we're tilting back towards sacramentalism i mean we're just making the preaching of the word the sacrament that that by itself imparts grace apart from being heard in faith you see that's that's the burden of what i'm trying to say not faithful preaching or faithful hearing but faithful preaching coupled with faithful we have let's see we have joseph and massapequa long island new york who says do you think that a proper balance of liturgical worship should be reintroduced to modern evangelical churches i'm not talking about dry dead formalism or vain repetition but where the congregation is more involved in responsing responses from scripture etc so they are actually participating more in the teaching and preaching of the word no any other questions all right now let me uh give you a serious answer um when he says liturgical my answer was no and then when he went on to explain what he meant well then that's a bit different yes i do think that they're it's good to involve uh obviously the whole congregation in worship but and and every church has a liturgy i mean even the simplest baptist or bible church that ours is a very simple liturgy it's this but that gets more complicated than some we start being called to worship by scripture then we sing then we pray we sing a couple of hymns we have a responsive reading through scripture we're reading through the chapters of the new testament responsibly and then some more hymn singing and the sermon and pose with a hymn prayer and and with the bible bible starts the service ends the service so that's a liturgy everything you do is a in pattern is a liturgy but yes i do like to look for ways to involve the people but the trouble is the more that that liturgy gets involved and gets scripted and gets complicated i just have never seen it successfully guarded from becoming ritualistic but even the simplest liturgy can become ritualistic if people don't see themselves as a congregation of priests a kingdom of priests all of us responsible for having red hot hearts towards god filled with the spirit and looking towards jesus and love and worshiping him together not imagining that somebody's worshiping him for me but that the worship is something that we all participate in in our different ways yeah i think that uh it can be uh obvious from what is going on in the charismatic and pentecostal movement that even the enthusiastic unscripted unrehearsed worship that may take place in the charismatic and pentecostal churches even that can become mundane which is why more and more bizarre things seem to creep up to keep people's interest and keep them excited because because the law of diminishing the facts takes place right what god has got to rise out of me this week doesn't get a rise out of me next week so i gotta do something more extreme do you have any uh recommendations that are practical in regard to uh the prevention of boredom of being becoming mundane of becoming too predictable uh and that would obviously be more relative to those of us who have a more orderly uh and rigid rigidly timed worship services the frozen chosen well let me um refer back to the article that i was making my way through how to hear god's voice i actually have 10 steps 10 suggestions in that in that article well go through as go through as many as you can and the the intent is just to help everyone to enter with the expectation that i'm i'm an important part of what's going on here my i'm not just a spectator so that's why i urge people to pray i urge them to get well rested because their participation matters show up to the service on time as part of the family um pray during the service and then i suggest taking notes in our we give outlines to make it easy but the more of yourself that you engage in the sermon and listening to the sermon the more you're likely to get out of it and keep out of it and so i suggest people to jot down notes whether they take thorough notes or whether they just jot down the thoughts but and action items listen to it in a personal way not in the sense of taking personally everything whether it applies or not but go with the expectation i'm going to hear god's word preach to me something in here is going to be for me when even if it's talking about something i'm single and it's talking about marriage but it's going to talk to me about how to think about marriage and how to encourage my very friends and and how to think when i'm going about choosing a mate or seeking a mate um a spouse and uh and besides even if i can't think of a practical way it teaches me about god and about the counsels of god i'm going to hear something out of this and i'm going to hear god's word preach so listen for that jot it down do something so that you can remember it and then when the service is over find some way to review it go out to lunch with somebody or to coffee or talk about it with your family discuss the sermon in the car on the way home or over lunch or over dinner and and above all take action if there's something in that sermon that that encourages you that motivates you convicts of a sin that hurts that makes you winced then put down a note so you don't forget it and as soon as you get home get down on your knees or get on the phone or whatever applies and start acting on that that you heard from god because this is james's warning right in james chapter one he's not talking just to pastors or seminary professors or even deacons he's talking to all of us and he tells us not to be what forgetful hearers don't be like a guy who sees in the mirror oh i've got something on my face and then turns away and immediately forgets what he saw right does he know us or what so he's he's saying look deeply into the law of liberty and don't be forgetful hearers but become doers of the word and so whether i'm reading it in my personal devotion or if we do family reading whether i'm hearing it preached hear it to act on it and put it into action because the only other alternative i'm either building a building a a pattern of hearing and acting on god's word or a pattern of ignoring and walking away from god's word and that's not anywhere i want to go as a christian i don't want to be somebody who's accustomed that's what hebrews warns me against that's that's hardening my heart and what does he say today today if you hear his voice and i want to underscore every time i read the bible every time i hear word god's word preached i'm hearing his voice today if you hear his voice doesn't mean today if you feel something special in your heart today if you feel like god is nudging you know that's nothing about that if i simply hear the word of god i'm hearing his voice and so what i need to do is not harden my heart and if i pick the church biblically then that happens every time we get together i hear god's voice every time we get together i need to be ready and i need to follow up we uh have bb in cumberland county pennsylvania who says while i don't agree with the extreme of the plymouth brethren where there seems to be no distinction between offices in the church i do however think that men in the church should be given opportunities to participate in different ways in the public assembly such as reading the scriptures do you think sometimes that we are too rigidly fixed on only having elders or deacons be involved in the certain ceremonies and things that we do in our ordinary worship where we're leaving people out unnecessarily that that too is a good question and as i listened to it i was kind of going one way another and in my answer um so she's asking about involving people in the service and yes i agree it's a challenge my pressure is i want to keep the service as simple as possible so that's going to mean that it has few moving parts and so that's going to mean fewer opportunities to get different people involved right but yes i do look for ways to in our church to we have different people doing the responsive reading of scripture and we have ushers and different ushers pray over the offering and whatnot but otherwise there aren't a whole lot of different places to plug someone into and and the more plentiful idea of okay who has a who has a message today yeah i wouldn't go in that direction but your questioner doesn't suggest that either because uh james says we shouldn't be many teachers but that is uh that is something that few should aspire to and only those who are qualified for it should do but as far as other parts yeah i do think that's a good idea and i and i look for ways to to do that to have other um church members involved in the services well now i would like you to for the next three minutes or so uh summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before they depart from this program thank you i'd love to um what i want most to impress on people is that it is it is essential that pastors faithfully preach the word of god but it is no less essential that believers faithfully hear the word of god the preaching is not a magical exercise and it's not a sacrament in that it automatically confers blessing on people whose eardrums are vibrated by it god calls us when we hear his word not to harden his hearts but to receive it in faith and it the faith with which you receive it is a submissive faith it's a responsive faith it's a faith that says speak lord your servant is listening and so it's just as important that the congregation hear faithfully and respond to it as that the pastor preach i thank god for the dear people in our church who love the preaching of the word of god and it's so encouraging to see people take it to heart and act on it take it seriously obviously talk about it in their families and look for ways i can't tell you how much that means to me how much that lifts my spirits that's the idea of the the reformation was not making a new sacrament out of the preaching of the word it was recovering the priesthood of all believers and putting the word in the center the word in the center to be preached by god's servants and to be heard by all of god's people amen well i want to make sure that our listeners have all the contact information that they would need to be in touch with you and to find out more about you and your ministry i know that the copperfield bible church of houston texas has a website copperfieldbiblechurch .org

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copperfieldbiblechurch .org you know i just thought of something that's an irony isn't it copperfield and you were talking about magic david copperfield anyway uh do you have in fact i want you to give the the blog website for the articles that you were just addressing yeah the where i'm writing now is pj media which is simply pj like pajama pjmedia .com