Great Debate VII - Veneration of Saints and Images - Madrid

Copyright and Debate Introductions

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I'm going to introduce my dear friend James White, first of all, before I introduce Arnold Pilsner of Americans United for the Pope, who was a great help to me in this debate, as he is every year. Dr. James White is director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a theologically reformed evangelical Christian apologetics organization in Phoenix, Arizona, where he also pastors the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

James is a professor at several seminaries and the author of almost 20 books, including The Roman Catholic Controversy, Mary, Another Redeemer, and Dangerous Airwaves, Harold Camping Refuted, and Christ's Church Defended.

Due to his scholarship in New Testament Greek, James was appointed critical consultant for the New American Standard Bible update version. He is heard frequently as a guest on national radio broadcasts, such as The Bible Answer Man with Hank Hanegraaff and Janet Parshall's America.

Here he is, ladies and gentlemen, Dr. James White. By the way, many of you may have noticed a metamorphosis in Dr. White over the last seven years. How many here were at the first debate seven years ago?

By the way, how many evangelical Protestants do we have here tonight? And how many Roman Catholics do we have here tonight? Oh, very good. Looks equal. Looks pretty equal, right? Looks very equal. When I first met Dr. White, he was a mere slip of a man.

He was quite small, would you say, in stature. Some might even call him frail. When he was first here, he sort of looked like the curator of the Cornelius Van Til Library here. Now he looks like a steroid crazed serial killer that you'd see on America's Most Wanted.

It's kind of funny. We've been friends for eight years now. When I first met him, he was a humorless man, dry as a bone, quite dull actually. Always brilliant. I always granted him that. But over the years, he's bulked up to a rather impressive and frightening stature.

He's actually developed a sense of humor. So I recognize that in this friendship, I've been able to share with him some things that he's absorbed. And I'm wondering, where's the give in this give and take relationship?

I mean, why am I still a moron? I don't understand that. Well, greedy soul that he is, I still love him. And I am excited about this debate. And before I introduce Arnold Pilsner of Americans United for the Pope, who will introduce Patrick Madrid, I just want to say a word about Patrick.

Despite the fact that I am a committed Protestant, there's no two ways about it. In fact, as I've said before, it is my hope that every Catholic leaves here a Protestant, every Protestant leaves here a Calvinist, and every Calvinist leaves here a Reformed Baptist.

That is my wish. But despite that fact, I have a little bit of a problem with sympathies here because Patrick Madrid, this is not a lie, was the first person on September 11th to call me to see if I was okay.

Very first person. And I must quickly add, though, that James White was the second person who called me on November 11th, I believe it was. In fact, the conversation went something like this. Hey, Chris, you know that stuff I have, the winter clothing that I have for my trips to New York?

You got that still? Yeah, you might want to send that back. You're good? That's good. Well, anyway, I got to go. Bye. Anyway, no, James is a dear friend, and of course he was also very quick to find out how I was doing on that day.

But I would like to introduce Arnold Pilsner, who we will be introducing to you, Patrick Madrid. Arnold Pilsner is Director of Americans United for the Pope. He has been a very valuable friend in these debates every year, helping organize the Catholic side of this.

And Arnold Pilsner, where are you? I'd like you to come up and introduce Patrick Madrid.

After that wonderful introduction that you gave to Dr. White and Patrick, thank you for not introducing me. Oh, okay. Thank you, Chris, for your introduction and for all the work that you do every year to make this debate a great success.

I also extend my greetings to Dr. White and to his staff. It is a distinct honor and pleasure to introduce to you Mr. Patrick Madrid. Patrick Madrid is the publisher of Envoy Magazine, an award-winning Catholic journal of apologetics and evangelization.

Patrick is the best-selling author of several books, including Surprise by Truth, Surprise by Truth 2, Pope Fiction, Any Friend of God's is a Friend of Mine, Where is That in the Bible, Search and Rescue, Why is That in Tradition? and the forthcoming book, Friends in High Places.

He is also a co-author of Not by Scripture Alone and is a contributor to the forthcoming Ignatius Press Encyclopedia of Catholic Apologetics. Active in apologetics for the past 15 years, he was the vice president of Catholic Answers from 1988 to 1995 and co-founder of that apostolous flagship magazine, This Rock, in January of 1990.

Patrick is not a convert. He was raised in the Catholic faith. He earned a Bachelor of Science degree in business management from the University of Phoenix and has done graduate studies in theology at the University of Dallas.

In addition to his work as an author, Patrick is also the host of two EWTN television and radio series, Pope Fiction and The Truth About Scripture and Tradition, and he is the executive producer of the Envoy Communications radio program, Right Here, Right Now, which is aired on Catholic stations across the country.

He has conducted hundreds of apologetics and evangelization conferences in English and Spanish at parishes and universities across the United States, throughout Europe and Asia, and in Latin America. He is a veteran of several formal public debates with Protestant ministers, Mormon leaders, and other non-Catholic spokesmen.

Patrick and his wife, Nancy, have been blessed with 11 healthy and happy children. Their most important goal as a couple is to one day hear the Lord Jesus say to them and their children, well done, good and faithful servants.

You have been faithful over a little. Now enter into the joy of your master. Matthew 25, 21. Please join me in giving Patrick Madrid a warm welcome.

One thing I want to make clear tonight also is that both sides are usually very spirited and committed to their respective sides of this debate, but we ask you please not to call out, not to make noises, groans and moans.

I mean, you can do that after I say something, but not during these guys while they're debating because that just detracts from the whole spirit of the debate and it distracts from the content of the debate.

So we just ask of you to please keep your outbursts out of the room. We don't need them. I mean, you can obviously applaud after a debater has finished speaking and so forth, but while there is actually speaking going on during the debate, please no outbursts from the audience in any way.

I also want to draw your attention. In fact, I'm going to call Arnold up here real quick in a second so he can point you to some of Patrick's books. I think he forgot to do that. But I want to call your attention to two books by James White that are available for sale out in the lobby out there that both sides of this debate may find interesting.

The first one is Dangerous Airwaves, Harold Camping Refuted and Christ's Church Defended. It's a book that James White wrote obviously refuting the recent heresies of Harold Camping who is saying that the church no longer exists.

And another book that he wrote with Jeffrey Neal called The Same-Sex Controversy, which is a book refuting the liberal theologians' attempts to defend homosexuality biblically. And please, this book is not to be confused with the book that I wrote about my tragic struggle with colorblindness called The Same Socks Controversy.

It's a totally, totally different book, completely different. There's also a three-volume set, a three-volume set by a dear friend of both Dr. White's and mine, actually two dear friends of mine and Dr. White's, Bill Webster and David Ching, have a three-volume set on the historicity of the doctrine of sola scriptura.

It is probably the most exhaustive collection of writings on this subject in perspective of the early church fathers and so forth. And it's worth selling them cheaper than you're going to get them anywhere else, including his website.

$15 a volume. $15 a volume here, very dirt cheap. I mean, you can attest to that, can't you? Very dirt cheap. I stand before you folks a liar and a man who is going back on his word. But I apologize. I just can't help myself tonight.

I hope that all here forgive me for doing this, especially our Orthodox Presbyterian moderator. But I just can't control myself. Excuse me, but let's get ready to rumble. Sorry, I had to get that out of my system.

I apologize. I apologize. Now I'm going to introduce to you our esteemed moderator who I'm sure does not want to know me anymore. When I was trying to find a moderator for this debate, in order to be fair, I had to think a minute and say, I have to find somebody who despises Catholics just about as much as he despises Baptists.

So who better than a Presbyterian moderator? Bill Shishko is one of the most brilliant men that I have ever met, and I say that in total sincerity and honesty. He is a dear friend. He is the pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, Long Island.

And I'd like to introduce him to you, Pastor Bill Shishko, our moderator, ladies and gentlemen. Now, Arnold, I just want to quick at Arnold. Do you have any books that you wanted to highlight about Patrick, or do you want Patrick to do it?

Patrick, do you want to just quick highlight any of your books? Okay, that's fine. All right, now we're just going to, before Bill comes up and takes over the evening, which I'm sure you'll all be thankful for, we're going to bow for a word of silent prayer.

Amen. Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. And here again is Pastor Bill Shishko.

The Debate Thesis and Rules of Order

Chris picked a Presbyterian because we're known for doing everything decently and in order. And we're going to start that right now. The thesis for the debate this evening is prayer to and veneration of the saints, as well as the veneration of sacred images that represent them, is compatible with Scripture and Christian tradition.

Mr. Patrick Madrid will defend the thesis. Mr. James White will deny the thesis. Here is the order for the speeches for the evening. The opening speech will be led by Mr. Madrid and then followed by Mr. White.

Each opening speech will be 27 minutes long. This will be followed by a second speech by each person. Mr. Madrid and Mr. White will speak each for 14 minutes in that order. Following that, there will be a 15-minute break.

Now, my experience has been in past debates that 10 or 15 minutes has become 30 minutes. I am moderating this this evening. It will be a 15-minute break. At the 13-minute mark, you'll be given a two-minute warning, and you will be in your seats if you want to hear the next part of the debate.

And we're doing that so that you will have time for questions following. After the break, there will be a cross-examination period of 12 minutes, led first by Mr. Madrid and then by Mr. White. And that will be followed by two rebuttals, each of eight minutes, again, Mr. Madrid leading and Mr. White following.

Closing remarks will be for 10 minutes each with the same succession of speakers. That, including the 15-minute debate, should be approximately two hours and 40 minutes or two hours and 45 minutes, which should leave about 30 minutes for questions.

And it will be a question time, not a time for preaching from the gathered people. So we must be out of here by 1145. I want to reiterate what Mr. Aronson said. We are strictly going to observe the time limits.

I ask that you do not applaud in the middle of the speeches of the people. If you're applauding the man that you favor, you're only taking up his time. You're not going to help him at all. You may applaud at the end and certainly at the end of the entire debate.

Both men will be deserving of our applause. I am insisting on decorum. This is a debate. It is not a baseball game. Thankfully, neither of our men is involved in a union, so I don't think they'll be going on strike.

But you are not to boo. You are not to hiss. You are not to make cat calls or loud sighs. Again, I will call for order. And one other thing that I ask, if you have a cell phone, either turn it off or turn your ring mechanism to vibrate only.

We don't want any interruptions by cell phones at all this evening. If you have to make a call, do not make it from your seat. Go out to the back, but please turn off your cell phones or only use the vibrator.

We'll begin this evening with Mr. Madrid. Thank you all. Well, greetings to all of you and my thanks to the organizers of this debate, to Jim White, to Arnold Pilsner and his group, to all the people who have helped put this on.

I didn't realize this was the seventh of these debates in a row, but I can tell you that after all the things that I've heard about this debate and how fierce New Yorkers are and how strenuous these events sometimes get, I feel as though I'm sort of the main course at a banquet here.

But I hope I taste good this evening. At least I hope the information that we present to you is palatable. I'm also aware that the Great Debate Series has a well-deserved reputation for bringing in only the finest and the best debaters to this venue.

And since none of those people were available this year, I'm also grateful that they were willing to call on me as a backup. Now, as our moderator pointed out a few minutes ago, the thesis topic tonight is, and I'll just repeat it, prayer to and veneration of the saints as well as the veneration of sacred images that represent them is compatible with scripture and Christian tradition.

And my job tonight is to present the Catholic case, and not just the Catholic case but the Orthodox case as well, to the extent that the Orthodox will tolerate me presuming to make the same case for them.

But Catholics and Orthodox share the same views on this subject. So I'm going to be doing my best to present the information that will help you see whether or not this is not a reasonable proposition.

I believe it is a reasonable proposition that the evidence in scripture and the evidence in sacred tradition, in fact, tell us that the veneration of the saints, veneration of their images, and asking for their intercession is compatible with scripture and with Christian tradition.

And in order to do my job properly, one of the things that both I and Jim have to do is we have to stay on topic, as we were told earlier. And so that means that we're not going to be able to veer into tangential related issues such as Mary's perpetual virginity.

We won't have time to talk about purgatory or whether or not we should call Mary the mother of God. We won't have time to talk about her immaculate conception. And those are all other debates for future forums.

But tonight we have to concentrate on this very strict sense, the very strict theme of whether or not it is proper for Christians to honor the saints and to invoke their intercession and to venerate icons of the saints.

And so we're going to do our best to stay on that topic and really take a look at the evidence that serves to verify the hypothesis. That's my job. And then Jim is going to present his information, his evidence, that he sees as denying or falsifying this hypothesis.

And, you know, when I was coming out here, we drove all the way out from Columbus, Ohio. My son and his friend and I came out. And as I was coming out here, it dawned on me that today is July the 11th.

And here I am standing in front of you in the greater New York area. And the more I thought about it, the more I think God is being very poetic in having this date fixed through his providence for a debate on the question of the communion of saints because consider what was happening just a few miles from here at the Twin Towers on September the 11th.

There were many thousands of people who were losing their lives. You and I all watched it on television in horror. Some of you perhaps were even in the city at the time. You may have seen the devastation up close.

And one of the things that has come to my mind as I've thought and prayed and prepared for this debate is what we all did, I'm certain, as normal human beings when we turned on the television and found out about the hijackings and the buildings falling down, we prayed.

And I won't ask for a show of hands, but I think if we were honest and looked into our hearts, we did pray for other people. We prayed for the victims of the planes, hoping that maybe somebody would survive.

We prayed for those that were trapped in the buildings. We prayed for the brave firefighters and the rescue workers who went into the buildings to protect them and to save them. But the point is we prayed.

We prayed for the people who lived in the area. We didn't know if they were hurt or not hurt, killed or alive. And really, that is a very sad, very tragic, but also I think a very helpful backdrop for us this evening because it typifies very well, very vividly for us, what the communion of saints means.

Now, I realize that there are many things that divide us theologically here, Catholics and Protestants, but one thing I think it's safe to say is that we are all striving to love and serve Jesus Christ.

And part of that desire to know, love and serve Him involves doing what He told us to do, and that is to love our neighbor. And in the Catholic Church, that commandment to love your neighbor includes such things as clothing the naked, giving drink to the thirsty, etc., but also, and perhaps even more importantly, it involves praying for your neighbor, seeking after his spiritual well-being, building him up in Christ.

That is even more important than feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc., as important as those things are. And so what I'd like to do is to present some biblical information. We won't have time to cover a mountain of information, but let me begin with a definition or two just to help us get situated.

First of all, the Council of Trent, in its 25th session in 1563, it declared that the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their own prayers for men, and it is good and useful, suppliantly, to invoke them and to have recourse to their prayers, aid and help for obtaining the benefits from God through His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who alone is Redeemer and Savior.

That was the Council of Trent. At Vatican II, we see something a little bit more expansive. Vatican II says in the document Sacra Sanctum Concilium, By the hidden and kindly mystery of God's will, a supernatural solidarity reigns among men.

A consequence of this is that the sin of one person harms other people, just as one person's holiness helps others. In this way, Christian believers help each other reach their supernatural destiny. The great intimacy of the union of those in heaven with Christ gives extra steadiness and holiness to the whole church and makes a manifold contribution to the extension of her building.

Now that they are welcomed in their own country and are at home with the Lord, through Him, with Him, and in Him, they intercede unremittingly with the Father on our behalf. That would be a very concise statement with regard to what the communion of saints is all about.

So now let me go through some particular evidence that I think will help us see at least what the Catholic Church is saying and teaching on this subject. And I'd like to present to you seven points for your consideration with regard to this thesis tonight about the communion of saints.

The first of the seven points is that the church is Christ's body. And I believe we could all agree on that. The church is the body of Christ. We read about that in Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 2, 3, and 4.

We're told such things in Romans 12, verses 4 through 5, for as in one body we have many parts, and all the parts do not have the same function. So we, though many, are one body in Christ, and, now listen to this last phrase, and individually parts of one another.

So there's this cohesive unity between all the members of the body of Christ. We are in Christ, but we are also, as St. Paul says here, individually parts of one another. We have a share in each other's welfare.

We read about this also in John 17, verses 22 through 23. Jesus says essentially the same thing when he says, May they be one as we are one, speaking to the Father, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one.

And in John 15, verses 1 through 5, the Lord amplifies this through his use of the metaphor of the vine and the branches. You and I are branches, part of the body of Christ. He is the vine. And interestingly, although you and I as branches have communion and fellowship with the vine itself, Christ, we also have communion and fellowship with one another.

So keep this in mind. The church is Christ's body. Point number two, Christ has only one body. He doesn't have a body on earth and another body in heaven. There's just one body of Christ, and it's an eternal, perpetual, united body.

And Christ so identifies with us that, for example, when Saul, who was persecuting the Christians in Acts 9, gets knocked off his horse, Jesus confronts him, and he doesn't say, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting my followers?

He says, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? Meaning that there is this intense and mysterious connection between Christ and his body. So if we keep that second point in mind, that Christ has only one body, not one body in heaven and one body on earth, we realize that when St. Paul says in Ephesians 2, verses 13 through 16, that Christ has made peace for us, he has made us one.

He has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two. This is unity. Galatians 3, verses 27 through 28, St. Paul says, for as many of you as were baptized into Christ and have put on Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Now, we can enumerate many different examples of these passages that tell us the same thing, but what this is getting us to is the question between Catholics and evangelical Protestants and others, for that matter, and that is, we may be able to agree that there is one body of Christ, we may be able to agree that the church is the body of Christ, as we're told in those passages, but the real question is, as members of the body of Christ, is there some type of connection between those of us who are saints here on earth and the saints who are in heaven?

That's the real question that's set before us tonight. And what we have to look at now is point number three, which will help us address that question, because that's one of those big dividing issues.

Point number three is that death does not separate the members of the body of Christ. So just as St. Paul said, those of us who were baptized into Christ are one body, as he also says in Romans 8, verses 35 through 39, nothing can separate us from the love of Christ.

And he lists many different things, not nakedness, famine, the sword, peril, et cetera. He says none of these things can divide us from Christ and from his love. He says, in fact, we conquer overwhelmingly through these things.

But it's not just the love of Christ that he is referring to here. He's also referring to Christ himself. So those of us who are in the body of Christ can't be separated from either Christ himself or from any other member of the body.

Otherwise, Christ would not have conquered death. And if you believe, as I do, that Jesus Christ conquered death once and for all and destroyed death in its sting and took away any power that it has over his followers, then that's the real question.

If Christ conquered death, then the body of Christ is not separated by death. We have to consider that since death has no power to sever the bond of Christian unity, the relationship between Christians remains.

And as we go a little bit further tonight, we're going to see how Scripture intensifies this relationship for us when it speaks about the different duties that Christians have toward one another. In 1 Corinthians 12, St. Paul says, God placed the parts, each one of them in the body, as he intended.

If they were all one part, where would the body be? But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, I do not need you, nor again can the head say to the feet, I do not need you.

And this is very important for us to remember that those who say that we should ignore or even deny that the saints in heaven, the members of that one body of Christ, can and do pray for us and that we can invoke their intercession, they are actually violating 1 Corinthians 12.

St. Paul says very clearly, no member of the body can say to any other member, I do not need you. And tonight, as the evidence is being presented by Jim for the opposing side, I want you to keep 1 Corinthians 12 in mind, if you would, and ask yourself if that argument is consistent with St. Paul's admonition that we need one another.

Point number four, Christians are united in charity. This is, you might say, the point where the rubber meets the road in the Christian life. We are called to love and serve one another. Romans 15, verses 30 through 32.

I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf. 2 Corinthians 1, 10. In Him we have put our hope that He will also rescue us again as you help us with prayer.

Colossians 1, 4 and 9 through 10. We always give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. When we pray for you, we do not cease praying for you and asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding to live in a manner worthy of the Lord.

Another question we should ask is, if St. Paul says that he always prays for us, he yearns to see us, and so on, does it make any sense at all, given what we know from the earlier points, to imagine that once St. Paul died, that those thoughts and that intention to pray for and supplicate on our behalf would go out the window, and that suddenly now, he wouldn't be doing those things.

We could quote many other verses, Galatians 6, 2, 1 Corinthians 10, 24, 1 Thessalonians 4, 9 through 10, 2 Thessalonians 5, excuse me, 1 Thessalonians 5, 11, and 1 Thessalonians 5, 14 through 15. All of these are good examples of what is called in theological circles a standing command.

This is a command that Scripture gives us to pray for, to help one another, to seek the spiritual welfare of our fellow members of the body of Christ, and nowhere in Scripture is this command to the members of the body of Christ rescinded.

The next point, point number five, is that we are able to imitate the saints, and part of what we as Catholics and our Orthodox brothers do when we have icons is to have pictures of them to remind us of their virtues, to remind us of the sufferings that the martyrs underwent on behalf of Christ, to remind us of purity and truthfulness, etc.

And as St. Paul says in Philippians 3, 17 and in Philippians 4, 8 through 9, he tells us to imitate him, and he says whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.

Now ask yourself, among all the people that you know, who do you think is the most gracious, the most pure, the most honorable, etc., if not the saints who are in heaven in glory? Hebrews 12 tells us that they are the spirits of the just made perfect in righteousness.

So if anything is presented to us by Scripture for us to meditate upon, not to the exclusion, of course, but in addition to meditating upon Jesus Christ, that would be the friends of Jesus Christ, the saints.

If we go a little bit further, we get to some of the statements that we get from the early church fathers, but before we get to those, we're just going to talk about one final, two final points, point number six, that we are able to invoke the intercession of the saints.

This is another area that divides Catholics and Protestants. I'm here to say, I'm here as a friend, I'm not your enemy, but I'm here to represent the Catholic teaching, which is simply that those of us on earth can pray for one another, as St. Paul said in 1 Timothy 2, verses one through four.

First of all, brothers, I ask that prayers, supplications, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life, for this is good and pleasing to God, our Savior.

St. Paul says that when we pray for each other, supplicate for one another, intercede for one another, and offer thanksgivings, God is pleased by that. And one question that I hope Jim will be able to answer for us tonight is how is it that suddenly when the saints who can pray, supplicate, and intercede for us here on earth, and that pleases God, how is it that when they get to heaven and they stand before God face to face, they are perfected in righteousness, that suddenly now that is no longer pleasing to God?

Or that it is no longer pleasing to God for us to ask them to pray, supplicate, and intercede for us? And notice it's just right before 1 Timothy 2, 5, that we read those words, and in 1 Timothy 2, 5, we see St. Paul reminding us, for there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

So these saints in heaven are not somehow doing something that Jesus is only supposed to do. They're not trying to take away or rob something from Christ, who is our one mediator. He is the only one that could effect a union between where we are stranded in sin and where God is in all holiness.

He is the one mediator. But now, because we have that access through Christ, we are able to pray for, supplicate, intercede for one another. Another interesting point, Matthew 25, 21, Jesus in that passage tells us that the saints are put in charge of many things.

In heaven, they are put in charge of many things. That means there must be some activity in addition to praising the Lord, which is, of course, the primary activity. But I'm going to tell you that they are put in charge of many things, and one of those many things that they're in charge of is to continue that effort to pray for and supplicate for us.

There are many passages in the Old Testament, but because of time, I don't have the ability to go into those passages where we see supplication and we see intercession on the part of Old Testament figures such as Abraham or Job.

Perhaps in the Q &A period, we can cover those. But I'd like you to listen to the church fathers and what they say on the subject of the value and the importance of the intercession of the saints. For example, listen to St. Jerome, writing around the year 406.

He says,. You say in your book that while we live, we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards, when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. And this is especially clear since the martyrs, though they cry for vengeance for their own blood, have never been able to obtain their request.

But if the apostles and martyrs were still alive in the body, while still alive in the body, can pray for others, a time when they ought to still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns and victories and triumphs?

He writes that in his work against Vigilantius. Augustine of Hippo says in his Sermon 159,. There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in the place at the altar of God, where the prayer is not offered for them.

Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered, for it is wrong to pray for a martyr to whose prayers we ourselves ought to be commended. He also says in Sermon 172,. For the whole church observes this practice, which was handed down by the fathers, that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the body and the blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place and sacrifice itself, and the sacrifice is offered also in the memory of them and on their behalf.

So we see there again, not only does St. Augustine tell us that the saints in heaven can pray for us, but also that we pray for the souls of the faithfully departed. Catholics would refer to that as purgatory, people who are there.

Unfortunately, purgatory is not our debate theme tonight, as tantalizing as that might be for both of us, but perhaps a future opportunity will present itself. St. John Damascene mentions the same thing.

We could go repeatedly through these different points, but I want to just finish up with point seven and then we'll turn briefly to icons. The last point is that we can praise and honor the saints. And when we have icons in the Catholic Church, that is for the benefit of praising and honoring the saints.