Coronavirus, What in the World is Happening?

Can you show me because we're gonna use some hermeneutics Can you show me anywhere in the Old Testament where that word perpetual is not perpetual because again,

I understand you're appealing again Sure Wait a minute,

I thought I was gonna get to have a talk here. You asked a question. Hang on a second, sir Be quiet. Okay. Well, there you go.

I will mute you because it's not your show you asked the question I'm gonna give you the answer Genesis 6 for the word

Olam is used referring to those who were of old Deuteronomy, I'll get just rattle off all the ones where it's used not referring to perpetual

Genesis 6 for Deuteronomy 32 7 Joshua 24 to 1st

Samuel 27 8 Job 22 15 Psalm 247 24 9 25 6 41 13 77 9 90 verse 2 103 verse 17 106 verse 48 119 52 1 feet of 43 3rd verse 3

Proverbs 8 23 Proverbs 22 28 Proverbs 23 10 and Ecclesiastes 1 10 should

I go on for more? Bob blah blah blah blah To answer your questions your host from striving for eternity ministries

All right, we are live apologetics live

I can't help it I think that's hilarious blah blah blah blah That was his great answer to Humanitics, that was mr.

Batman who? Yeah, okay. Well, mr. Batman from that was two weeks ago on the episode of tourism you want to you want to listen to that full thing because Mr.

Batman was an interesting fellow and so earlier before we went live

I was constructing this brick wall behind me because um I didn't want you guys to see that my books are practicing

Social distancing from me and they've left they all left You could kind of see that There they've there's nothing there.

It's sad. I miss my books and therefore I covered him up. All right I'm your host

Andrew rap report for apologetics live. You can come in and ask any question you want we have this is a

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Eastern Time Just go to apologetics live .com. There is a link there to watch a link to join and We always try to put that who's gonna be the special guest if we have any

I'm gonna have a number of guests today Most of which are podcasters But we are gonna have a number of guests a today's topic that we're gonna talk about is the corona virus

I know no one else is talking about this. We are covering a topic. No one at all is covering

We're the only ones breaking news. Oh wait. No, actually everyone's talking about it.

So what do we have? Well, we're gonna give some things different. We hope give some different perspectives tackle this from a different way

Just to start off before I bring some of the guys in I had posted something on Facebook.

I Just saw this somewhere Can can we uninstall 2020 and and reinstall it?

I believe it had a virus And so Jimmy DeSantos from the solar cast said it was supposed to be the year of vision

But no one saw this coming and That's gonna be really important with Sun.

I'm gonna be playing in a moment, but Frank Mullis from striving fraternity

Had said this if 2020 has taught me anything. It's that liquor stores are essential and public schools are not

He had stolen that from someone else So these are some of the memes that we've we've that I've just grabbed this week

Someone had posted complaining about quarantine you just brought yourself another month

You want to keep going pal? You can I could do this all 2020 That was from a and for for those who are in here who know my background.

I'm sure you know, Tim Martin's in here He's gonna have to he's gonna understand this the picture was had to be explained to me

But it was from a movie called now I forgot the movie breakfast club or something with some principal who kept giving the guy extra detentions and so so Then there was a post that that someone had posted that the

Pope had Had basically announced that because of the corona virus, there's gonna be no more

Confessions and you could just go to Jesus on your own which Well, those

Protestants they've known that all along so But I do want to start off I'm gonna

I'm gonna share a video because I think this is so interesting I'm gonna share a couple videos here as we start the first is from Sid Roth's program

It's supernatural and he responds to a video from a friend of mine

Justin Peters who did an excellent video Sid Roth did a thing of 2020 for 2020 vision and the 2020 vision he had like 20 guys giving 20 prophecies and Justin went through all 20 of them and showed how

Yeah, none of them were accurate. None of them saw the biggest event in the world.

They all saw Prosperity and goodness and none of them saw the entire economy being shut down But let's listen to Sid's response to Justin's video before I do.

I got to make sure that you guys can hear it so, let me let me make sure of that, okay now you should be able to hear it and And so you guys in the chat you let me know if you guys can't hear it when

I hit play Hello, I Am so excited to know that I am speaking a message that is

So on God's heart and let me tell you what happened Most of the prophets

I know not all I wish it was all but and by the way, there's a big misunderstanding of prophecy

And I had someone know pick a bone with me I you know in social media and do a whole post against me

Yes He said Sid did this 2020 thing with 20 of the best prophets

He knows and some of them talked about things would be wonderful and some of them talked about things would be bad

Well, have you ever read the scripture that say we know in part? We prophesy in part

Yeah, okay Sid Roth. There you go. That is for for those who want to take scripture out of context

He just used an illustration an Illustration and the irony is if he actually read the context of 1st

Corinthians 13 there He would realize that that scripture was saying that his tongues that he likes to teach the ceased yeah

He the the tongues that he likes to say are so important in the context. That's the part

Speaking in a known language. That's the the full that was kind of funny. So We what was

Justin doing Justin was talking about the fact with coronavirus What you see is a lot of people who are out there these prophets who claim to have

You know words from the Lord and we're gonna look at one and yet they didn't see the corona virus

I this next clip that I want to play real quick. I Wanted I really wanted to take like to just chop up this whole thing and maybe

I would but this is Jesse Duplantis another supposed prophet not he was

First off before we do this I want you to look if you could if you guys are seeing the screen you can look on the screen and see

Something that is right in front of him maybe you've seen the post that I put out on Facebook because I grabbed

I grabbed the a picture from this and I We created a meme because if you look in front of him and his wife, there's these things called

Oh eyeglasses Never trust a faith healer that claims he can bind the corona virus by faith

But he and his wife wear eyeglasses You're gonna hear him now claim that he can he's gonna bind

The this virus and therefore it's it should have it should be done We there should be absolutely no cases of corona virus at all because he bound it he we don't have enough time to get into all this, but he actually said that he knows he can never get corona virus and Therefore he can walk out of the building and feel safe in doing so because it's impossible for him to get the corona virus

Well, I'll invite him to New York City. Come on up and let's see But let's make a long story short when he said that I Said I'm gonna set myself an agreement with that man.

Well, let me go back to that So it made a man out of me. This is how strong I believe about this

I believe it's time to open up this nation. I'm not afraid of the corona virus by no means

I'm gonna say something some of y 'all ain't gonna believe but any germ touch my body. I'm believing in the name of Jesus That it dies not me because death and life in the power my tongue not the corona virus is done

I know some of y 'all are freaking out here, but go ahead and believe what you want to believe I decided to believe something that got hope in it

That's got faith in it. Like I've said before I like to push the light light me see so God's Word is true

I am so positive about that that and so it kept it barely in the bracket.

She's 67. She don't mind me I'm 70 years old. So we're in this bracket that in the bad bracket.

I thank God both of us are very healthy We're not compromised in any way shape or form If as far as we know health -wise

I am okay. Let's just stop that. They're not compromised in any way health -wise

Yeah, but when it comes to morality and you know, God's Word. Well, you have there you're very compromised

Jesse, but let's go I am willing to die for that. I'm willing to die for what

I believe now I'm not dying to death and life's in the power of the tongue I want my granddaughter who just turned 12 years old to grow up in America and have the same

Opportunity that her grandfather had that her grandmother had I guess that opportunity is ripping people off that her mama had

You see what I'm saying? Because if we continue to let this happen, it will destroy this nation

And I want to you we've heard about the Great Depression. I wasn't born Now notice notice the pastoral spirit of this man here.

You hear him. He's worried about the economy not people's souls Just note that Great Depression, but this would be worse than the

Great Depression Millions and millions of people out of way. Let me tell you after a while you're gonna have chaos You're gonna have people shooting each other

You're gonna have people doing the grab an apple to do something because you know when the restaurants shut down We just think of the people in the restaurants.

Well, what about the farmers that supplying the food to the restaurants? What about the trucks and the things are trying to get it to the restaurant?

See, it's a chain of events more and you know We have never seen nothing like this and I really believe that the reason why now by the way

The thing is so amazing. We've never seen anything like this Don't you think a guy who and I had to clip this in the middle earlier?

He said God came to him when he was okay.

I don't know what just happened I think I lost I got bounced out. So sorry about that, but it looks like we're still live

All right, so we will we'll get back to Jesse Just folks let me know that you you can still see me and hear me

I hope But So basically,

I don't know what happened Tim. You said we lost video. Is it back? Okay head nod, all right good whoo, all right

Love technology. It's probably there's way too many people online right now Earlier in this in this clip.

What he said was he he was reading the passage Of course, he read it out of context where it says

We're two or three agree on anything in my name. There I am He said he was reading that and as he's reading it

God just popped in and stopped in film Hey, I'll be your two. In other words. God's gonna submit to Jesse Duplantis God's gonna be his to his he's the number one and Jesus is too.

Yeah. Okay, that's this guy So he didn't see this coming all this Prophecy and vision he has and God speaking to him and no one mentioned to him the coronavirus

Because a lot of people got into fear and man that coronavirus love that fear just sucked it up Mm -hmm and that image

I preached a few weeks back. I refused to bow down that image. So I'm with you president I'm believing

God you're gonna be able to open up and I know the governor's rule each other states and we understand all those kind Of things but I believe

Instead of just open up sections. I mean why if I'm gonna believe I might as well believe for the best

And we we do know that there are a lot of places in America. That is not very If he's gonna believe he's gonna believe for the best just open it all up.

That's right Just open it all up, but he's gonna be staying in his nice palace. I'm sure so it could be opened up But I'd like for this thing the whole completely open up and everybody go back to work because everybody

I've talked to They want to go back to their jobs. Yeah, I didn't see one person say this boy.

I'll tell you what lead back Jack This is great. Uh -uh. Uh -uh And thank God we got a Congress and we got people they're trying to get some stimulus back

It's to stimulate the economy things of that nature. I really believe I think he's caring about the stimulus

Package because he wants everyone that gets the thousand -dollar check to send it to him. Just saying Y 'all can freak out.

They say well, it's gonna take a long time to retract this thing If people start putting faith behind their money and in their mouth

I think that Dow Jones Industrial hit 30 ,000 so faith in money not in God.

Hmm. Okay, you can even blink What I'm telling you if you'll put

God in this if two of us agree on earth is touching anything that you're so Confident in the stock that you buy that it's gonna shoot up now

I know sometimes some stocks over so I got no sense to know that but what I'm saying is what are we going to believe?

Jesus said if two of us agree on earth So I'm agreeing with President Trump. I'm agreeing with people that's gonna stand on the word.

I am Listen, I am willing to walk anywhere touch

Anything I know that sounds crazy, but I don't operate in fear See, but that's not the time

But you know what we the human race is made to touch if you don't want to shake hands no more

You don't have to I'm still gonna shake hand. You don't shake hand with me. I think I hurt my feelings I still want to hug if you don't want to hug then

I won't hug. I mean, I Will do what you asked me to do with me. I made up my mind.

I'm not gonna let anything like that Destroy the life that I had before before I could hug somebody shake somebody's hand

I don't know that I'm pretty sure there's probably germs on this desk here Now I'm saying this in my in my boardroom where all the decisions of Jesse Duplantis administration

Okay, so so here's the thing with that when you say he has not he does not have fear. He's not gonna allow fear

Jesse Duplantis Come on to New York City. Let's see your healing.

Let's see you do it. I Don't think he's coming to New York. That ain't happening for a very simple reason

He's in that age bracket and he knows it and he knows that all his talk is hogwash

He's just after people's money. All right, I'm gonna bring in. Let's see. First one. I want to bring in is

Mr. Tim Martin, which is the first time I get to see you face to face It is indeed. Yes, okay.

I can so Tim Martin is with the podcast. Are you just watching? He is one of the co -hosts there it's it's my favorite podcast me

I listen to it Well, I do actually listen to it all the time, but I have so much input right we were we really enjoyed doing it but you should probably watch a few more movies before you really

Really start throwing in you guys on your show you you do

Movies and so Which is which is really good, but either the joke that many regular listeners know

I'm pop culture illiterate I don't get most of the movies the latest one you did Emma was it?

Yep. We just finished. We just posted Emma. Actually Eve did that all herself bless her soul

Because I came down with COVID -19 the day after I was supposed to start working on the show notes

Yes, so so the thing is that you guys did I didn't even know not only did I not know there was a movie named

Emma I Didn't know until you guys Start talking about it that there was a previous movie called

Emma. So yeah, it's actually a fairly well -known book by Jane Austen Yeah, okay.

So You could just add, you know, yeah, at least it is fiction, right?

Yes, so I Pretty much only read nonfiction, you know, I would show you all the book the other way

But I had to put up this brick wall to hide the fact that my books are practical distancing from me

I wish I could have figured out how to cover up the mess behind me You will mine is just empty bookcases so So, um the reason

I You know, I I reached out to you You're one of the podcasters on the

Christian podcast community And we have two that have been tested for the coronavirus

James Watkins who's in the in the backstage and he we're gonna bring him in later and Yourself, but James fortunately has tested negative.

You did it God. So I Wanted to give a chance you you've had you've you've had a rough year, you know job changes and things and now it's

Um, but God is good. Yeah How about we you know, like how did you?

Talk us through how you discovered you might have it the testing process and what your thoughts are, you know, yeah sure, it's it's actually a sort of an interesting story because you know,

I We we actually recorded

The the Emma episode of are you just watching on Thursday night? And the next day

I was due to head to our church men's retreat in Wakefield, Virginia and I woke up Friday morning with a little bit of a cough, but here in in Virginia Beach it had been so warm and I live in a very heavily wooded area with lots of pine trees and These pine trees have this nasty yellow gunk that they just Drop all over everything when spring comes and I wrote off.

I wrote the cough off as as allergies to to the pollen so went to the men's retreat stopped at a famous,

Virginia diner on the way there and and did the men's retreat and we had the wonderful speaker come in who who talked about his struggles and faith and And then we went we all went to the range at After the speaker finished up on Saturday and heard some great old antique guns

Wait, wait, I live in New Jersey. What's it? What's what's a gun? Oh for you. It's northern,

New Jersey, Newark So Anyway, I left around 233 o 'clock and on the way home.

I started noticing that I wasn't quite feeling so good and by the time that 8 o 'clock rolled around I knew

I was in trouble The the big one for anybody who is wondering about the coronavirus is shortness of breath and I you know,

I immediately I Contacted the the pastor our pastor

Jeff Elliott to let him know that I might be Virus positive and we contacted the venue and and all that and Saturday night through Sunday morning was absolutely

Misery, it was terrible. The fever was so bad that I was

I was Like somebody had put a quarter in me. I was just shaking the entire bed from chills and The coughing was tremendous

Sunday I called my doctor's office and spoke to the on -call doc and they sent me to get tested and Then it took me

Six days To to get the test results back. It was supposed to be two to five and As you know fate would have it six days was when

I got my results back So basically everybody who was on the men's retreat has been in self -isolation since the the 14th and Excuse me and my recovery

I'm on day 12 of symptoms now My recovery actually isn't going too badly.

I talked with I speak with two registered nurses every day one from the

Virginia Department of Health as a as a as a kovat 19 carrier

And they've made it clear to me that if I even try to leave the property They're gonna send the state police to tackle me

And I Talked to a nurse from Sentara, which is the the major medical centers in Virginia and Actually got some good news from her today

Once I am symptom free for three days then

I'm actually I'm actually released from my isolation can go back out into the world without much

Fear actually of being reinfected which is Outstanding hopefully

I can I can turn that to some benefit somehow with Helping people who are in need.

Well, let me let me ask you because I'm hearing I've been hearing some different things because so they're telling you that you

Once you have it and recover you can't get it again Not quite. Okay Because I've been hearing this from people and yet there's a guy in Japan who's he's actually an

Israelite and he Got it in Japan recovered in Japan came back to Israel and got it again.

Yeah Saying no, you can't once you get it. You're immune and I'm like, yeah

You're not actually immune the the difference. This is just like any This is just like the the flu virus in that aspect where you know, the virus will jump from person to person and every time it moves

Through enough people it will have gone through enough of a mutation to overcome immunity to the previous

Mutations have have You know been built up against so I can catch it again if it has been through enough mutations the challenge, of course is that You know as long as I stay within the the region

I should be relatively safe That said I'm not gonna go out and snuggle with anybody

Yeah, so so is it it's a 15 day recovery is what they're telling you.

It depends the the They all vary and it depends on stuff like comorbidities

I happen to be type 2 diabetic and hypertensive Obviously, I'm a tad overweight.

Although I've actually lost almost 20 pounds From the start of this wonderful wonderful diet regimen

But as far as my comorbidities go the nurse said that I'm actually doing pretty well

At 12 days, I'm roughly 70 % recovered Shortness of breath is still noticeable, but not anywhere near as bad as it has been

Coughing is still there a little bit, but it's definitely going out and now

I'm just dealing with With the need to stay hydrated because that's always a big problem for me is drinking anything other than diet cola yeah, well, you know,

I Had a friend of mine he used to drink a lot of diet Diet soda and they told me to cut that out.

You'll probably lose weight. He lost Yeah, 12 pounds in the first couple of days of your cutting.

He's a trick like Seven or eight of them a day and just drank water. It drove him nuts He was like he didn't think he could do it

But after after I think a month he lost like 25 pounds and the only thing he changed was cutting out the soda.

I Admire him. I don't have the willpower Yeah, it was not it was not fun for him so, um, so you got in to explain some of the

The early symptoms things like that and I think you're probably like most Most of us that we're gonna kind of write it off and be like, okay that I can

I can easily excuse these things I mean, it is good to hear you sounding good.

I mean, I into your podcast I can hear the difference Although I usually listen to you at three times the speed.

So yeah But what you mean, what is it and you know the

Early on when did you start to realize so I have a couple questions for you It's like sure what one is I want to know how you know

When did you start realizing this was something more was it just with the shortness of breath? Was there anything else indicating the other thing is?

I'm curious of is how's the church? I mean, obviously you're at the immense fellowship Yeah retreat and then a third question is is there anyone else at home with you?

Are you like locked up when else's confined with you? So there's a couple questions I had for you.

Yeah, absolutely Well the come to Jesus moment as they say was definitely the shortness of breath

Saturday night Excuse me the 14th. I when I couldn't get a

I couldn't get a deep breath and I couldn't walk from one room to another without running short on breath

I Knew I knew I was in trouble and by that point. I was starting to feel feverish and it was just undeniable

Undeniable unlike the video that you showed of the guy who Apparently can can hold it off with the power of his faith.

Yeah, which You don't have to be clear Christ can do it if he wants yeah, but I don't think he has any reason to do it

For us. Yeah. No, you if you don't know who Jesse Duplantis is he's a I don't actually

That's a good thing. Yeah, do you know what computers is at all? I've heard the name it

As you know, I I now work for the Christian Broadcasting Network. Ah which is a wonderful Wonderful absolutely outstanding group of people however my theology differs a little bit with with them and and They they prescribed to some of the stuff that Yeah, no, no

Jesse's an interesting fella he actually Justin I played for me a clip where Jesse claims.

He went to a cable car to go up to be with Jesus and Oh, yeah.

No, wait, it's a you think that's a day. Wait, it gets worse He took the cable car ride of Jesus on Telegraph Hill and Jesus was having a bad day and He needed

Jesse. So Jesse told Jesus that he was gonna clear his schedule for the whole day

So he could just sit and pray for Jesus And around lunchtime

Jesus told him Jesse, you know, I'm feeling better. You can go back now Yeah, I don't want to plant this on Judgment Day It's I would like to see where he can back that up in Scripture because if it ain't in the word

It ain't happening. Well, he butchers the scripture for sure. So but anyway, I interrupted with that So what happened to the church well thanks to Thanks to My presence at the men's retreat

I actually led for our services to be canceled and So that as it so happens,

I'm I'm a deacon and I'm also One of the members of our church technology steering committee and we had met about a week and a half prior

Knowing that we were gonna have to go to a streaming solution We had it on we had it on our on our agenda, but it was taking a backseat to some other stuff but we now a week and a half prior we had made it, you know a priority and Thanks be to God he had actually allowed everything to fall into place and And By By last

Sunday we were able to pre record our pre recording streamer our first service which

Which went extremely well, we've got a great bunch of guys on the on the tech team all volunteers elders and deacons and volunteers alike and As a matter of fact one of the the gentleman in charge of the video is actually one of the hosts of the

NASA Edge podcast that Brings an incredible amount of expertise

Blair Allen With him so God's really been taking care of taking care of our church

We've had great viewership of our first service. I actually just recorded A Sunday service today

And the week after that we're hoping to start streaming live does your whole church now have to be kind of a self -isolated now

We got to the men soon enough here's Part of the issue is that you know, you can be contagious

Five to ten days before showing symptoms So I started showing symptoms on the 13th

So in theory I could have been contagious as far back as the third

But I don't have any way of knowing how I caught it. We had just met we just had our missions week and we met with we met with a number of different missionaries from Africa and Nicaragua and a number of other places they're

Suddenly escaping me, but I don't know if any of those missionaries had recently been overseas

You know how how many days every year missionaries will end up having to spend coming back and doing fundraising

So I might have caught it from from one of them I might have you know, I could have caught it from From a checkout cashier at Aldi.

There's just there's no way no way to know. So The the men from the retreat are still on are still on safe self isolation

But at this point if they have not Started to show any symptoms. I believe the conventional wisdom as related to me from the nurse earlier today is

That they should be problem free Yeah, I mean it's

I went to Shepherd's conference, which you know People were nervous with it and you know all these people from all over the world were coming out

And so it was a thing where you know after two weeks, I'm like, okay, I'm feeling a little better You know for folks who don't know

Maybe I'll just I'm gonna share my screen real quick here You know some disturbing something disturbing that we we did have

This is the numbers right now and You know, the the the thing that's kind of sad is if You look there the

United States just became number one just today We we jumped from number three in the world

To number one. We now have more cases than than China and as you see The line here, you know people are

Not taking it, you know, I mean granted we're doing a lot more testing than the rest of the world

So there are there's a lot of people that don't know But you know it it is climbing

You know if we if I look here And we look at the let me refresh this

New York United States just today so far 6 ,000 new cases in New York almost 2 ,500 in New Jersey and if you look at yesterday,

I mean yesterday there was 6 ,600 in in New York and there was only 700 in Jersey.

So Jersey went from 700 to 2 ,400 in one day and so this is this is

It's expanding. Unfortunately, it's you know Someone's asking about Canada Yeah, Canada is kind of way down on the list.

So Jesse you're you're you're Canadian There was a question for you that was asked by KT And she she asked you whether you've lost your sense of smell like others have

You know, I actually hadn't heard that as a symptom but I had but One of the one of the symptoms

I've had a severely depressed appetite and I mean severely depressed But as a diabetic,

I still have to make sure that my blood sugars are maintained and the other morning I had yogurt granola and and fresh fruit

And the fresh fruit was raspberries and I usually love raspberries And I noticed while I was eating them that they tasted like nothing

Yeah, that so that would That would seem to jive with the with the question.

It's I think the sense of smell has probably been Affected. Yeah, I have I don't have a strong Sense of smell and one of the things that is affected by that is is the taste

I don't taste that like my wife can tell something like she can taste things and know it's fresher or frozen.

I can't yeah Generally, I can't you know, I just Unless it looks like it's been frozen.

So You know, which usually does so You know, let's you know

So you mentioned, you know about the the church and also how's everyone in the household dealing with?

I see you got to like all there by the way some Lysol wipes. That's a yeah, actually I what

I got a Care package from the state of Virginia bless their hearts

Of Face masks and Lysol wipes and tissues. It was it was actually really

Really very very helpful so in the house with me is my wife of 28 years and my 23 year old daughter

Both of whom are Showing some symptoms my wife is probably three days behind me and Symptoms and my my daughter is

Is not it's coughing just a little bit but not too bad

Neither of them have any comorbidities. So so it's very likely that they will

They'll recover much quicker than I did. Okay Yeah, but I don't know we'll take prayers prayers are power man

I'm just put up here. Jess heads has said online. She said it's great to talk to someone who is recovering.

So it's my pleasure So he will greatly appreciate your prayers Yeah Well, I told

I in the private chat. I told John that will bump James Watkins For his because he wants to come in and do what do you say?

Like he said he wants to do a comedy report and so then all of a sudden James Watkins Left so what do you think of that John you just you just got him booted.

So let's oh, come on back James James is back in now. He's project as his internet probably practicing social distancing from him, but so what real quick and What folks to get a chance to hear, you know, plug plug your podcast and and anything else?

Yeah so I Want to plug are you just watching?

Are you just watching is a podcast dedicated to Christian critical thinking evaluation of messages as they come out of out of You know secular media

Mostly Hollywood, but it's you know, we're we're in a world where We're getting media from everywhere from Atlanta and all that But everybody who does entertainment has an agenda whether they know it or not embrace it or not and Eve and I strive to use critical thinking to look at that agenda and and determine how it can impact your life knowingly and unknowingly

Eve is The heart and soul of the podcast and I am the Ed McMahon to her

Johnny Carson And I am perfectly content doing that. She is a outstanding critical thinker and It's well worth listening to the podcast to get her insight.

We just posted an episode on Emma the

Jane Austen novel, which I May have to give up my bro card to say this, but I actually enjoyed

But go to are you just watching calm and check us out please it would it would really mean a lot if you could listen to rate and review us and and It it's been wonderful being a member of the

Christian podcasting community because you guys have been an outstanding resource Well, we we haven't seen you come on to our theology throwdown yet.

We're waiting for you to Join, but but but we didn't hear that at least at least you know, we did one on on hearing after you guys did the

The Harriet episode. Yeah Yeah, I listened to that one and then she came back on the show and said

Justin kind of corrected her Or you know the name Justin Peters. He he she literally in that throwdown.

She was like, oh wait. No, Justin's right. Okay, so she came back She was like she had told me you know,

I had to I had to come on to the show and and admit that Tim was right Of course every once in a while,

I just wish I could have heard it heard her say it in person Well, it was it was kind of funny because I told

I told Justin what she said on the show and the way I forget exactly how she worded on the show, but it was something like um

You're sounding like I was taken to school or I was schooled or or something like that I forget the exact wording and when

I told it to Justin, he felt all bad because he's like no You know, but that's the whole part of the theology throwdown as we talk theology.

We we don't all agree That's the whole point but we can still do it and show love and charity and and talk about our differences and still get along yeah, it's actually

I I wanted to throw out the uh, a quote that uh a non -biblical quote that has really changed how

I address brothers and christians brother Brothers and sisters who have differences in theology for me right there um, there was a there was a monk in I want to say the 14th century, uh, rupert melindas

And he has a quote that is commonly attributed to augustine and and a number of other people

In essentials unity and non -essentials liberty and all things charity and uh, it's

I think it's important as believers that we uh that we focus on the gospel and uh, and yeah, there are people out there who preach prosperity gospel and And uh, you know, uh faith healing over over covet 19 um but uh as long as we are both as as long as we're focused on making sure that uh,

That the unbeliever knows that christ died for their sins And that god loved even me in all

The horrible things that i've done Uh, he took them all on the cross When he died, uh, and the horrible stuff that i'm still gonna do

Um, it just it You know, it really lifts my heart up to know that there's a savior out there for even me

And if there's a savior for me the least of them Then there's a savior out there for Every person who has yet to believe yeah

Yeah, god knew all the sin that we were going to commit long before. I mean he he paid the payment.

I paid it So everything everything we ever do is future to to when he when he paid it but You know, one of the things that makes me think of um, and I should just say, uh,

Jess says I gotta find theology throwdown. What the heck? Well, just just go find go to your podcast app and look for theology throwdown

You'll find it. All right. Um, but you know, I I did a Netflix and I matt was doing two debates in texas

Um one with david smalley one with matt delahunty So we had a lot of the same atheists show up both nights

And I I don't remember that what what was going on at the time But there was something that was going on with some atheist

And no, none of the atheists would would call them out would talk about it and I was asking all these different atheists

You know, why don't you you know, do you think what he did was wrong? And and some wouldn't even want to admit that it's wrong. They didn't want to talk about it if they knew about it and Then I had one guy the second night

And he said something that really really surprised me and really helped make things Uh put it in a perspective

Um, he turned and he said he knew about the situation and I said, well, you know, you think it's wrong

He said yeah, I said, well, why don't why don't you call him out? And his response to me was this he said andrew

Listen, I like you, but I hate your christianity He said this guy is doing a great job at destroying christianity

I would never do anything that would hurt what he's doing And I walked away going man this atheist understands

Christian unity would like what it should be better than christian Because the reality is here's this this guy who realizes this is a battle that's bigger than just what

I think or you know now differences christians are going to call out wrong for being wrong because It's christ we have to honor god we have to honor and right but but it made me realize that He understood the point that you know, if we're divided

You know, we we can't win in the in the realm of ideas We can't win in the in this I mean we can because we have god

I understand that but Yeah, as far as when we keep dividing amongst ourselves, we focus all of our time and energy on attacking you know this christian or that christian i'm not saying when we're dealing with jesse duplantis and guys like that that Don't have a gospel

Message, okay, but we have people that are believers That we have differences.

I mean You know, you're presbyterian you're baptist. You're lutheran. We we got a lutheran that's in the in the backstage, you know

It doesn't matter in one sense we like we can get together and and We get a world system.

That's you know, a whole lost generation of people that need to hear the gospel That's the important thing

We need to get that message out and and this is the thing difference with what jesse duplantis I'm looking at this coronavirus and saying how do we use this for the gospel?

Exactly. One of the things I found Is everybody they're so stuck of being sick of being stuck at home and in your case, you can't do this, but Everybody is out in parks now, which is not good

But They're all out there. So i'm i'm like I was like, okay hand out tracks, right?

I mean now it's to a point where people are starting to go. They're like, oh, we don't want to head out tracks Because they don't want to take anything.

So that's probably safe. But that like Our world is going to change after this

Yep, so, um, i'm going to bring in well, I said i'd bring john in So john's out somewhere walking

I'm trying to show that it's still sunny out there nice tree He'll eventually realize that he's live

Andrew andrew, are you there? Andrew I'm out here in the woods and i'm trying to Find that covid19

I got my gun right here Got my broomstick And i'm out here. I'm trying to find this covid19

And that's I just can't find it I can't find it nowhere around I got

I got I was told That this is gonna protect me This toilet paper is going to protect me i've been wearing it

And i've been making diapers out of them and I just don't know why what's going on because I I don't know what's happening

I don't know, but i'm going i'm here in the woods I'm gonna give you a report right now It's not here.

I don't see it anywhere around here But this is washington state. So, you know, it's kind of crazy out here, but the governor shut us down Now, I don't know what we're doing.

I mean, we're just a year in the woods That's all we're doing. We're just sitting in the woods. I'm wiping my butt with my toilet paper

That's all i'm doing you got way too much time on your hand Is You know the way

Yeah, we're loud All right, my boomstick my boomstick

Anyway i'll bring mr. Watkins now, whoop my report. Oh wait here comes the drone

Gotta go. All right Thank you for your report john will you back it backstage let's bring james in james watkins he is the host of um,

Are you just watching? No, wait. No, that's his co -host. Wait. No. Yeah We don't know if james is actually he when was the last time we saw a five solos podcast release.

I don't know About two weeks ago. Oh, okay He's been a little busy.

That wasn't three that was like from january So, yeah, well i've got about four more of those

I gotta release Yeah, well get on it man. We I mean you're home. You got nothing to do now. So so five solos podcast

That's it. What do you what do you so why do we bring you in? What do you you feeling? Okay? What's up with you?

You're turning your camera off so we you can't see you Well, that is uh for i'm not looking as good as mr.

Tim morton is right now uh I'm still very fresh and uh

You know i'm gonna have to mute the mute the mic at random points to cough and I don't want everybody to get uh, yeah have a seizure from the

From the from the shapes of the camera Yeah, well you you so this week we announced uh, and and I didn't announce tim right away in the christian podcast community facebook group only because I didn't know if I had your permission and Then eve was like, oh no, he's been posting on his wall.

I said, okay Well, then we then we got but we we did announce james. You had gone you got tested Uh, I think you said you thoroughly enjoyed the test and then uh

Yeah so so, uh, but you you tested negative

Yeah, and uh, and then but you you I mean you're still sick, but you you went and got tested you wanted to to share your uh your

Enjoyment of the test wizard the oh, well, I mean it was the the entire uh process, you know,

I mean the the reality is that a huge portion of Americans are going to go through this process.

Uh, I mean even people that are listening. I mean you're in new jersey and You know

Right in new york. I mean I think they said like 50 of the people in new york They're estimating we'll end up getting the virus which is

Insane to think about uh, but I mean the whole procedure, you know, whenever Uh, we had a guy at my work who uh, he was quarantined and they said that he had been tested for covid

And uh the next day I go into work and I have a scratchy throat and I didn't think anything of it

Uh, and then the very next day it just the how fast it progressed uh went immediately from my head all the way down to my chest and What what triggered me to to go is they did shut down our work

At about that point. Um as I got up out of the bed and I walked into The bathroom and I was doubled over gasping for air uh and shelby my

Wife she called my primary care doctor. I'm i'm just not Um, I I do not enjoy going to the emergency room and I usually don't

Unless I absolutely have to Uh, but she called my primary and talked with him and he uh at their recommendation they said that I needed to go to the emergency room

Uh and be tested. Um, and they were they were taking into consideration the gentleman that had been quarantined and tested himself uh, so they were erring on the side of caution, so Went to the emergency room.

My doctor had already called them and told them that I was coming in And uh, you know whenever we walk into the emergency room, there are people sitting at a table

They have a mask they have on gloves uh, and they immediately hand out masks, uh, and and ask what's bringing you in and Uh, the second that we told them that I was there for the exam for covid 19

They immediately just rushed me to the back. They told Um my wife they said that you can't stay in the emergency room

You can uh, either go home or you can go sit out and go sit in the car You can't be in the hospital

Is They were they saying that because they didn't know she had it too and didn't want it to spread within the hospital

Uh, I believe it was that as well as there was nobody in the emergency room So they were telling everyone that coming to the emergency room that they were just absolutely no.

No, uh Nobody could be with you. Uh, if you were being examined for anything

Yeah, it was it was the same way with me. They sent my wife to the car um, and all of my testing was actually done in tents outside of the emergency room um, the the only thing that I went in the building for was the chest x -ray and that was a

A room off to the side that had nobody in it. They wheeled in a portable x -ray machine

Wheeled it out and then walked me back out to the tent My wife waited in the car the entire time

Yeah, I mean this was a it was a two -hour process and they took me into a holding room

Uh, they closed the door. They closed curtains around me Uh completely had me isolated, um told me do not remove my mask under any circumstance to limit touching surfaces so I just kind of sat and sat in a chair just looking around uh, and I mean,

I talked with uh, two doctors a nurse practitioner to registered nurses. I mean coming in asking the question

Um examining me and one of them they said, you know, you might not even be tested

Uh, just because you're uh, I mean other than being sick right now you're you know relatively healthy

And I was like and I was like, yeah I mean, I understand that and the only time they're going to test you is if they believe that you are a high -risk patient Uh, or if they believe that you actually have the virus

So they can confirm it. So the doctor come in and he listened to my lungs and uh

He asked about my breathing And I told him I said I walked to the bathroom a little bit ago and just doubled over gassed me for air

And even while he was examining me, I couldn't catch my breath And uh, he said i'll be right back and uh, he walked out.

He never come back Uh, the next thing I know somebody was walking into the room in a gown splatter guard goggles

I mean, I mean they they were completely covered Uh, and I said, okay.

What uh, what what's happening here? And uh, she said well based on your mannerisms mannerisms and the uh symptoms the doctor believes that there's a high probability that you've been exposed to COVID -19

And they've ordered that you be tested I was like, oh boy. I read about this and uh

So she walked over there and you know Tip your head back. It's like I want to say about four or five inches

And they insert it into your nose and it goes, uh, they're scraping for brain

Oh, come on james this thing was easily six feet long and they stuffed the entire thing

Yeah, and uh, you know it it was it went it went really fast, uh, Now i'm understanding, you know because the president was talking about how he you know, this new self -testing

Is is quicker and so much better because it doesn't have to go all the way in the nasal cavity

Now i'm starting to get an understanding Oh, yeah All it did was it made my eyes water.

But other than that, um It it wasn't that bad. It was over quick enough to where it was just a minor inconvenience

But after that they uh, they did a neck tray on my chest um and You know, they come in there and the doctor told me he said and I don't know if this is going to be the norm for every single state, but this is kind of the

Surprising part to me Is uh, he said you've been tested for covid you can expect results probably three to five days

Uh, he said based on your symptoms and us Testing you and the only reason that they're testing is because they believe that you have the virus

They said based on this you're going to be counted as a confirmed case of covid19

Unless otherwise proven Okay Uh, he said that it's just us erring on the side of culture

So you're saying that the numbers that we have confirmed could actually be higher than yeah, so you well

Maybe it balances out because probably a lot of people that haven't been tested That's yeah The map that you brought up earlier andrew the um, the hopkins map.

Yep. The that is only confirmed as in medically identified um

Um instances of the of the sars cov2

Uh virus, which is the virus that causes covid19 So these are these are only positive test results what uh james correct me if i'm wrong here, but what

I think they were saying was that we are going to Have you act and treat you as if you are a positive test?

Result just out of an abundance of caution Yes, uh, and and then they they also um, they they made the comment that you know

You're going to be quarantined if anybody's in the house with you. They might be quarantined Um said the way that we're treating this is that you are positive unless it is proven otherwise um

And I mean at that point, you know, i'm sitting there i'm like oh man They said now here's how it's going to work is

If you're positive you're going to get a phone call Uh, if you don't get a phone call you can assume that you're negative

And just whenever you the symptoms that you have subside Uh, so the net that don't mean the same thing you're sitting at home waiting for a phone call not to happen.

Yeah Exactly, I guess because they have so many phone calls to make But so so you got no phone call.

How did you know that you were negative? Well, I got a phone call the very next morning and On the phone call they said that we are calling to uh, let you know

You are a confirmed case of covid19 for the state of ohio And uh, I said, oh, okay.

So what does that mean? Uh, they asked me well, how are your symptoms and I said well my breathing is is much worse

Uh, and they said they were going to call me back. They never did Um, so I come downstairs and I was talking to shelby and she reached back out to my primary because my breathing was so much worse

And uh, he said you need to go to the emergency room and you need to go right away uh, so went back to the emergency room and Whenever the doctor come in there,

I was like, so my results have come back that quick I thought they said it was going to be three to five days And he was like, no, no, no, this was uh, this was a misstep by the hospital

Uh, they were not supposed to call you Um, we're still trying to get all of our ducks in a row and figure out how to how to maneuver around it

Uh, he said basically she was calling telling me what they had told me in the emergency room the day before and checking on my symptoms

They said that's no longer the protocol Uh, the only time that they should call you is if you're positive.

So that was a breakdown in their procedure which by the way I mean just for folks to think about this is this my sister is is a works up at new york presbyterian and I mean, she's just overwhelmed

She said it's it's just chaos every day 24 hours a day and and the the doctors and nurses are working like 24 7

And just completely stressed out besides the fact that they're on the front line So they know they're they they could they're the most susceptible because everyone's that has it is coming to them

Yeah I mean, I think about my work as well. My work is you know, they're panicking Wanting to know okay.

Do we all need to go into quarantine? Do we need to be tested? What what do we need to do? uh, because I mean these are people i've had direct contact with You know

You know Point out this is angie saying in on youtube. That's why many don't get tested Yeah, there's a lot of people that don't want to be tested for this reason, you know, yeah

They're the ones who aren't allowing us to flatten the curve Right, right And uh, you know, I was talking with the doctor and he said, um

Said you're being treated as if you're positive the test results haven't come back. We believe that you have it Uh, but it hasn't been confirmed yet that that call shouldn't have went out

Um, so they they actually took me in and did a ct scan on me they injected, uh the dye into me

Um, he said that that was something that they should have done The first day that I went in um, he said that there is something with the ct scans to where they are able to detect kovid where There's a reading on on a ct scan

Uh that they can tell if it's actually kovid related or not Really so he said that they're doing more of that now

Uh, and also in the process they're checking to see if you're developing pneumonia uh, and they did that because of how bad my breathing was, uh, they gave me steroids and you know,

Probably about an hour after they gave that to me. My breathing was substantially better um

Gave me inhalers and then they uh, they said the good news is that you haven't Uh, you haven't developed pneumonia um

But you know, we're going to treat you for bronchitis So, I mean they were treating me for that and so I got sent back home, uh with a ton of medications and Now i'm sitting here.

I'm like, uh You know, you're fearful You know because the only thing going through my mind is if i'm positive for this the probability that my wife is going to get this

Astronomically high considering how close quarters we are Yeah, and so i'm just sitting there, you know waiting on the phone to ring.

Hey, you have coven 19, uh, Uh self quarantine stay quarantined, but uh, they they called me actually it updated on the phone on the app that they have

Uh that night and it said that it was negative And then the next morning they called me and said that I attested negative.

Uh, And they told me that I have influenza strand a and strand b as well as bronchitis

And don't do anything half half measures, yeah Well, my question to them was like how susceptible am

I to coven now? Uh, and they said well, it probably wouldn't be a very good thing

If you were to be exposed to it right now because your immune system is so At least a different thing indoors, you know, yes

But uh, yeah, I have somebody saying it in there, but I have them referring to it as kung flu Um, I have been uh,

I I said that in my quarantine I had become the kung flu panda Oh It's been a very it's been a very uh challenging

You're gonna get accused of racism because I mean if the president got accused of racism for calling it the chinese virus

Forgetting the fact that the chinese called it the one who fly virus, you know, or who won or the hun?

Wuhan so they called it after the town where it was originated, but I guess the president can

What about the spanish flu? How racist? Yeah. Well, there's a lot of them. I mean you think the spanish flu the asian flu?

um Uh, there was one named after a river. Um Like now

Yeah but Just just for full disclosure I'm actually in the group where I don't think we should be calling it the chinese flu or the wuhan virus or anything like that uh, and it it's not that I think that it uh, that I think it shows racism, but I think that it um, it provides um

Growth for racism that's already in people's hearts and it's Honestly, it's that's why

I i'm trying very hard to always refer to it as covet 19 and and use the Use the um the scientific designations for it

Yeah, I mean, I think I think It was interesting, you know, the president had a specific reason for for doing it

He gave that reason and it was because the chinese were saying that the americans planted this And when he he was he said and he said that was his reason for calling it

The chinese virus because he wanted people to remember where it came from and who it was That could have put a stop to this.

I mean It's this is something that when when all said and done after that we get past this

I think it's going to be interesting to see the reaction because you know There is the reality

And we understand every government is going to do this, right? Every government is going to try to save face china wanted to save face they didn't want they wanted to keep us a lid on what was happening, but They could have prevented this.

I mean it was Before chinese new year that they knew about it um or before new year

I should say and and so you know they this was an area where you had all these international people, especially the

People in italy that came in for a new year's celebration uh You know had had they just put a stop to it and if had china done what they did now back then

It wouldn't have spread beyond that town Probably and we wouldn't even be talking about it

I think it would have I think it would have spread slower and and the chinese government the way the chinese government handled it is

It's not hands down about as bad as it could have gotten yeah, um, but it's given the reproduction rate of this virus and The virility, uh,

I think we still would have been dealing uh dealing with it, but I think we would have had more time to deal with it and probably could have gotten to the point where we uh

Could have developed a vaccine before it got as bad as it did. Yeah You know, i'm gonna

I know rob was here actually james. Let me give you a chance to you know give a shout out for five solas for your the podcast you have and I need

I need to get some some of the decadent the uh, uh, Christian podcast community cows from you.

I need some more of those. Yeah, we can make that happen. Yeah Uh, I I have uh,

I have roughly about six podcasts that are in the pipeline right now. Um, Numerous guests on different topics

I don't know how you guys do it. I have trouble coming up with the time just to work with eve to do one

I did it all at g3 you Yeah, and you do you do a monthly one

Yeah, but it's andrew you do you do daily? No, actually right now.

My daily is on pause and uh you know in in a hopefully a few more weeks

I could probably explain why that's been on pause and uh, or you know wasn't I I put it on pause before I went to shepherd's conference.

It stayed on pause for a different reason Um, but yeah, no, I do a daily I do a monthly I do a bi -weekly which but but actually you do a monthly one

I think you you post more than james i'm, just saying I mean He does one every other month right now.

He's got something in the pipeline, but no, no, no, they've been released Uh, this uh this last thursday was the first one that I missed in about a month uh

You're gonna be you're gonna be doing the ones from g3 by the time next g3 comes around Well, i'm i have some that are recorded in between those so the g3 ones are just kind of the uh special.

Uh, Bonus episodes that i'll be releasing but uh, you know, i've really i've really enjoyed.

Um, looking at Aspects such such as you know what we're dealing with with covid -19.

That's something That i've enjoyed and uh andrew i've seen that it uh, that you didn't use strong enough tape again

I don't know who built that brick wall, but you really should get your money back So and before we went live

I put the green screen up and it it came down and james was just cracking I I used really good hacking

No, no, I think I think the question that we need to be asking right now is how How what what impact does this have on the church?

Um, you know, if I were to have come back positive for covid19 and praise god I didn't uh,

I think it just shows that pastors were definitely right to uh to to Can't not not cancel services because they're still live streaming them

But to limit the exposure of people, uh, I think that's very responsible. How many people could

I have infected? By going to church on that sunday when I wasn't showing but just minor symptoms

Uh, I mean that that's uh protecting the flock Yeah, and I wanted to talk about that as well.

Um, because You know if I if we you know, there was a um

There's been some some differing views. Here's here's let me just play this um

Let me just make sure that that is going to go to the right audio, but this was interesting to see

Uh, let me play this video After deciding to ignore advice from officials and hold public services yesterday

Ross gadotti is live with the story ross Yeah, essentially the pastor of this church said that he felt the need to let the congregation come to his church to worship

In this difficult time because it's what was needed As a church and as a congregation, but he is facing a lot of criticism for putting the public at risk

For word of life church senior pastor tom walters sunday was business as usual preaching the word

How in heaven are you? However, the hemphill township church is facing criticism after holding services over the weekend including a sunday meeting

That apparently saw more than 100 congregants inside the church's chapel Walter's telling his flock and the more

I thought about this. I thought wait a minute this Could possibly be disguised in everything else a direct attack

Against the church itself. I don't want anyone telling us We can't worship our god collectively as a body.

Walter's sermon focused on the present danger from the covid19 Pandemic that's killed more than 16 000 people worldwide with that number

Of course continuing to rise walter's saying the virus is of demonic origin And if there's one person in this place or two people three people perhaps

Who may be carrying the corona virus? We declare you're healed in jesus name

We went to the church today to talk to walters But no one came to the door pastor walter's sunday sermon was

Livestreamed and is available on the church's website the decision to hold services Going against health and government officials warnings of public gatherings.

There's a lot of people that are criticizing us But the bizarre thing is most of them don't come to our church

Many on the church's facebook page took issue with the choice to preach instead of just keeping the door shut

One posting you're not spreading god's word. You're spreading this killer virus Another calling the church's leadership selfish and acting above the law and not taking your fellow man's interest to heart

And finally one said I don't get it. We pray for protection of health care workers But ignore the reality of how they must treat this disease

Late this afternoon Pastor walter's issued a statement on the church's facebook page saying that he made a mistake and will no longer be holding

Services and instead will only live stream services starting this weekend in greensburg roscoe dotty katie.

All right news So here a couple things I had issue with with that um Only a couple well, okay so the the thing that You know one one thing that there's two aspects.

I think are very interesting with it. One is the fact that you have They they knew to ignore advice from officials.

They knew Going into this pastor in hemfield They knew going into this right that He already put out the statement saying that They weren't going to do this anymore

I find that kind of interesting because it basically is saying that they were you know, there was really no need for the news story right

But so this is where when you put your critical thinking hat on you start to go. So why did they do this? Right.

Well, they they want to make it look like this is what christians are doing And I have seen some posts, you know, it's interesting

I haven't seen anyone criticizing the muslims in islam. You must meet at the mosque and in even in in I think in saudi arabia or iran, they said there's this virus is going to kill millions because they must meet

And so that becomes a problem and and they're meeting that I didn't see anyone criticizing them.

I didn't see anyone criticizing the lgbt Parties that were going on where they had in in florida the the spring bash uh as people were on spring break and Seven of those youth now have it so it's interesting how they they're it's like almost like they wanted to target christianity, but Prior to them making the statement.

I think it was foolish on their part To have services and I have seen some people that feel no we we must be able to to meet

I I had asked uh, and someone a pastor if he wanted to come in couldn't make it in tonight and so Uh, but he and I had a great talk about this topic with how to do service

You know tim you said your church quickly went to um having online service, yeah um

I've been helping a lot of pastors Across the country who've been trying to figure out how do we set up for online service now?

Because a lot of people weren't designed for it Excuse me. There's there's things where That people are trying to figure out now

The world has changed Right. I mean there's gonna be things that are gonna be different I think hand shaking is never gonna happen again.

It's gonna be a thing of the past. Um As an introvert, thank god. Yeah But you know the the thing is is that I think there's there's some things that there's a tension that people have between Gathering to meet and I understand that there's some who think we obey god not

The law of the land type of thing that god comes first. I understand that but There's no scripture verse that demands

That we meet in a building um And this is not a christian persecution

Right when you have a christian persecution They'd be saying all the churches must close mosques can stay open synagogues can stay open schools can stay open malls can stay open

Churches must close that would be different They're saying everyone close

And I think that a lot of people have had I think of the right spin Which is this is and I forget which one of you mentioned it.

This is about loving your neighbor we we we need to have the perspective of You know if we go and maybe it was you james like if you go to church and you're you're positive

Whether you know it or not. You're helping to spread it And I mean, I don't know that this is ever going to stop until we find a vaccine

But have you ever seen? uh this country this world all

Almost in lockstep with trying to do things. I mean you have you have countries that never

Got along working together you have democrats and republicans working together for the most part, you know, um

It's because there's there's a common enemy, you know, it's it's it's healthy to see that people can put differences aside for what's more important And I think we we need to do that.

Oh rob left We've got a bunch of people that keep that have dropped out I was just about oh, there's rob good

You have to take into consideration the christian response to this, I mean Are we to live in fear over this?

I mean, is it well here? Here's the uh, and and this right here might get some comments going.

I don't know But and whenever we look at it, we look at god's sovereignty god has in his sovereignty

Decreed for this virus to come into this country Uh, he is every there. There is not one case covet 19.

That is a surprise to god Whatsoever so, I mean what does this do for our witness how do we witness in light of this as christians,

I mean and you know, it's it's so easy to say and you know, we we say it all the time, but You know tim you being positive for coven 19.

It's in some way somehow is being worked out to your good Absolutely. Romans 8 28, man

And uh, you know, it it should not stop the proclamation of the gospel

If anything it should it should drive us to want to proclaim it more and more Because people are dying from this

You know, I I was actually thinking that there's a similarity here between the persecution of the early church uh by the roman empire and what we're seeing today, which is a a

Forced if you'll excuse or use of the word evolution of of how we are

Presenting the church to the world um churches like mine who had only toyed with the idea of being

Heavily involved in social media are now suddenly, uh looking for ways to uh to to First make the service available to the regular congregants and second

Um make it uh get the word out that uh that people who would rather not come in have alternatives so, uh

It i'm sure god is using this. It's I I don't quite know how yet Uh, but I am sure that god is is using this to grow his church in ways that we can't even begin to comprehend

Yeah, and uh, i'm gonna bring rob in. I uh, Stan dropped out. He's uh, he's in And health

I was hoping he was I hope so i'm giving a shout out to see if he comes back in rob's been on this program before if he's not a podcaster, but Um for folks who who listen to objects live rob is a lutheran and he did a debate uh against tim cook

Or sorry tonight tim cook ken cook different different cook Ken cook doesn't have the money of tim cook, but you guys did a debate on does baptism save so if you guys uh

Hadn't watched that one go back to old episodes and apologize live rob. Welcome to the show Hey, man, thanks for having me.

I actually have started my own podcast. Although it's not associated with yours uh voices of church past where I read uh church church writers from history

And I try to do that to provide those materials so that people can either Who don't have the money to buy the books?

Or just don't have time to sit down and read a book might have maybe more time to walk around at their job or something

Like that listen to it. So i've been doing that. Uh, I frequently once a week feature a sermon from mart luther

I read it. It's not copyrighted so I can do that and then I usually pick a church father

And uh, it kind of do that. So I I did clement Um, I did tritillian and right now i'm doing novation and his argument for the trinity which is a pretty interesting, uh, so so Uh, yeah that that's available on you know, apple apple podcast and uh, spotify

If you just search uh voices of church past you'll find my podcast. It sounds similar to what? um, I you know,

I had this idea years ago about uh, taking old sermons and Repreaching them and that's yeah, that's what

I try to do. I I mean i'm not perfect at it, you know, but I I I I reflect a lot of mart luther's, uh

You know, uh personality and so I kind of can hear his voice in my head a little bit and I try to do what

I can to kind of Preach that like I would imagine he did so rob.

What does martin luther sound like? Is he nasally? Is he you know, i'm just He speaks german for one

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and i'm german heritage. So it kind of makes sense. But yeah, you know

I mostly really want it badly try to make this podcast like reach into like other countries because I know that resources are scarce in other countries and because it's free it might be like a

Doorway into kind of getting a piece of church history and that's kind of what I really wanted to be a church history

Podcast for people who normally wouldn't have the ability to purchase, you know An anti -nicean volume is almost sixty dollars

In some areas and I know you can find it online, but not everybody has access to online matters.

So that's true. So so What do you got for us tonight? You got a question or you know, you've been you've been in the the chat

Stage for a while I wasn't really quite sure like what the discussion was going to be about, you know It's kind of really cool to hear, you know a story from somebody that's had it somebody who thought they had it

Uh, I guess I was kind of just really looking forward to having like a deep philosophical discussion because I haven't had one yet on this thing

Uh, sadly our brothers and sisters in christ every time i've tried to engage in a conversation on this

It's broken down almost immediately to ad hominems uh name calling

Assuming the worst motives of each other and really it's really depressing me because what

I see in in Coming out of this is a seeping in of the world

View of those who are not in christ seeping into the church And the the way that people would treat maybe a debate on politics or whatever

Is now seeping into the church and people were doing the same argumentation That unbelievers, uh practices so to give you an example um

I like let's say I believe that there is no room for anybody to go outside of the house

You must self -quarantine absolutely full stop Any questions any pushback on that?

I will automatically assume i'm correct And you are a moral monster if you disagree with me

And start calling you names and all sorts of other things and that's generally what i've come across there is

Very little Rational conversations happening around this topic and that's kind of what

I really wanted to partake in because i've noticed this and I guess that's what I was bringing to the table is

It saddens me I mean, I know that's what's lurking in all of our hearts is to send nature even us christians

I believe we still maintain that and so it can manifest especially when fear is present But it's it's disheartening to see how quickly

Um the worldview argumentation has seeped into the church and people

Are acting out of emotion instead of logic and and reason and biblical

You know beliefs And so I I just want to share something real quick. I know you guys aren't lutherans, but this is uh, what?

Eighth commandment thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor What does this mean?

We should fear and love god that we may not deceitfully Below betray slander or defame our neighbor

But defend him and think and speak well of him and put the best construction on everything

And i'm not seeing a lot of the best construction is out the window in a lot of these conversations and you know that's to me

I value rational conversation. That's something that I look for all the time and In my adventures on the online i've not found a lot of that and especially around this topic, so well

I don't know if I found it with a lot of different topics. I mean, I think you know That's what we try to do different here is to not uh,

I mean When we poke even though you didn't hear me give a jab to the fact that you said we weren't lutheran

I said we were biblical you missed that but you know but uh

I mean, no, you're you're right and it's not just this topic. It's a lot of topics that we see christians who Really would rather tear each other apart to prove they're right and really

I think it's pride um Yeah, but you know at least in those conversations i've seen people at least have a conversation and then maybe it builds up to that There's no building up to it

I mean, it's literally like the first comment right after somebody pushes back a little bit on either side It's almost breaks down immediately.

That's what i'm seeing. Well, let's talk about uh, uh, we're talking about world views Let I mean, let's have a call.

Uh for consistency with the atheistic worldview, for example, whenever if if somebody is holding to uh, to the false doctrine of evolution then what they should be

Wanting us to do is wanting everybody to mingle that way coven 19 can weed out the weakest of the weak

I mean that that is that's literally what the evolutionary world view That's that's what it strives towards.

I was going to bring I was going to bring dr. Uh, solfestro and to ask him that question james is to ask him

From an evolutionary point of view for the the atheists that believe in evolution And this is part of the problem because I think some actually do believe this

The the the view that this is an old person's disease has caused a lot of problems Because there's a lot of people that think they can't get it

And it's like well, you may not have the symptoms as bad. But guess what? You're a carrier and But evolutionarily it was interesting because I forget now i'm forgetting the atheists that I heard.

Uh, I think it was two weeks ago and He actually was saying that this is this is just the natural selection

Working its way And and it was interesting because that's what hit me like, you know, he's actually being consistent at least

Because that's really in their worldview. Why would you? you know if you're if you're not strong enough and No offense tim.

I'm not saying you know that we should have you die off But right. I mean that is this is what they made it.

They they said in italy, right? If you're over sick, you were not even treating you You know, well, they they are picking and choosing.

Yeah well, uh, yeah, but remember in italy the reason that they they had to draw that line was because of the

They had hit their capacity as far as that is important to note. Yeah, it's not just because you know, they have an asian

But yeah when you hit that point The and this is this is the issue who makes the decisions?

you know, look, I I think I said this on last week's show, but Who you know who's not glad right now that hillary clinton lost?

I mean you could picture if if she was running this and it's just Yeah, well it would be it would be government takeover

I mean you already saw this in the in the with the the democrats in the house. I mean Trying to stuff things in and it really wasn't all the democrats.

It seemed to be more pelosi came back from california and They had it all worked out from what we understand and she was like nope

It's got to have all this stuff to you know there had to be stuff in there for uh windmills and you couldn't and carbon emissions and this and that it was like Minimum wage.

Yeah was in there. Yeah. Yeah, but what what's interesting for me as far as like the worldview stuff

Is i've not seen a lot of people Uh outside of christ thinking deeply on this of how?

Can we possibly ground? our morality and deep deep

Moral questions around this situation and anything resembling, uh consistent

Whereas on the other hand i've not again. I haven't seen a lot of christians really deeply talking about How far are are we to submit to the government and when in point are we supposed to consider?

You know the gospel and the implications to spreading the gospel. Um, how much are we?

How much is that submission versus Trying to stand up and preach the word of god

When when and where would that have to uh be considered to go against the government things that People aren't talking about.

I don't know people aren't even considering that from what i've experienced. Yeah Maybe it's the circles that you're running in.

Um, and you know Just because I I am seeing the some of those discussions at least with maybe the circles i'm running in where people are discussing, you know, where's the

Where's the line? How do we deal with this as far as not gathering together? um You know as far as ramifications,

I mean, I think You know, I think this is going to change the way people interact afterwards

I think this is going to have a long -term effect on things Um, I mean in some some aspect people said that about 9 -11 and there are some residual things left over from 9 -11

But the attitude and the caring of one's neighbors did not last long

No, no, actually, uh, I see I I see almost as if almost as if he was watching here's dr.

Silvestro There he is. How's it going? Come over for dinner tonight? Yeah so but Oh, he's saying his settings so he probably can't hear us

Uh, yeah, I invited uh, anthony over for dinner tonight, um We're we uh, we're offering a medium rare flu

And The best part is who can't he won't be able to hear this and he's gonna

That's good, all right, well i'm gonna do this, um, there we go

Can you hear us now? I can i'm in right? Okay. We we got a couple minutes because I do have there's a there's a fellow who um,

Who did have a a question that was has been trying to get in his internet's been In and out in and out and we want to make sure that we give him some time

Because he's been trying hard. So, um so anthony your view, uh

Is there consistency for an evolutionist to be trying to fight this flu or this virus? No, and in fact

The the evolutionists should right now Be hoping that the that this coronavirus spreads as fast and furiously as it can

To kill off all of the weaker organisms humans that are out there so that it preserves the

Resources that are limited for the strongest ones that survive, right? So, I mean that is their worldview

And so i'm not quite sure why i'm watching all these liberal news shows and tv shows and then seeming to be worried about This I mean look at the same point.

They're worried about a few people dying In hospital beds with coven 19

They are still championing All of the abortion bills running at full capacity throughout the country.

They're still open In a lot of states, they're still open almost everywhere essential service.

Yeah, they Planned Parenthood actually fought that Uh to make sure that they were considered, you know

They they I think it was kentucky where Every they were supposed to be cut down and they refused

Same in ohio. Yeah Yeah, it's it's crazy, but you have to you have to remember something though.

Um Many many many vaccinations Are using aborted baby parts to some degree aborted baby cell lines and they don't talk about this, but that's where That's where a major component of vaccinations come from So it would make perfect sense that they are still aborting

As much as they can right now to get the cell lines. They need to develop the vaccines for coven 19

Now if you want to talk about being proactive in a in an atheistic worldview What they should do is there is nothing in that worldview that says that it is morally wrong

To gather people that society says is the weakest link Get all of them in one neutral location have somebody in set them for them to die out

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's that They could they could basically be hitler and the jews all over again, and there would be nothing morally wrong with it

Well, there would be some morally wrong with it. It's just not in the view Yeah, and now it's the end is trying to derail us into an anti -vaccine no, no we can do that a different show

We should we should get you and frank together and do an anti -vaccination show

But I would make them look bad. I want to do that to a fellow well To try to try to spin this towards a gospel presentation

You know, they don't have groundings as far as morality, but that doesn't have to persist that state doesn't have to exist

In an affinity there is a solution to having a proper grounding for moral questions and to have deep deep

Answers to complicated questions like this and hope in the face of death and and things of this nature

That is out there. It's not like it's not there you know So so you're right rob, and I know

I know you're one of the guys who um who have read my book Um, and and you know, you see you saw we had a chapter in there regarding this issue of morality, right?

And um, it's it's very easy to establish that the only way somebody can have an absolute morality an absolute moral code

Is if it comes from one that is above every one of us, which is creator god right, we can't come up with any type of moral code if it is just Us as a society in some way deciding

On some universal moral law We can't have our opinion shape that or or what we wish to shape that right?

None of those things work in an absolute transcendent sense. So It only comes from a creator

And you know, it's our job rob is as you know, and everyone else here I'm sure knows too that it's our job as christians

When we are witnessing to unbelievers that we point this out Like this is if you want to talk about presupposition apologetics and the and one of the easiest ways

To understand presupp and use it. It's the moral argument So even guys that are that's where I started

Yeah, even guys that are not good apologists like robbie. Zacharias and others still use the moral argument

Well, so yeah, yeah morally what the the response that you're going to get as a result of this is going to be

You know, it's it's going to come down to the goodness of god. Well, if god is so good then why is there code 19?

uh, how how can how do you defend the goodness of god in light of A nation that is under siege with disease.

That's going to be what from an apologetic standpoint that we're going to be faced with more

Yeah, well, I would love to hear Uh the two that have the most experience not to denigrate anybody else on the on the panel

But I know anthony and I know andrew have been in Open air preaching and stuff like that way more than I could ever imagine um, so Since people are going to be able to touch each other.

Probably aren't going to look forward to speaking to each other in close proximity how Have you guys come up with anything as of yet to?

Try to give the gospel when we are able to go outside and things of that nature. Andrew carries 74 miles.

Yeah So here's what I thought is, you know, typically as open air preachers we we worry about a crowd getting too close to us

Well, we don't even have to draw a chalk line anymore At least six feet away from us now anthony and I were around in california and Folks who know ray comfort will do the open air and and there was you know

He was doing a thing where he'd cough him back. Sorry corona and people would just Like I he just coughed but he's his personality

He just he just he did it once where he went He coughed just because he had to cough and then went corona and and people just backed up So I think instead of me telling people hey, this is my spit zone.

I don't want to get you wet I don't i'll just say corona and they'll back up but I think I do think and anthony you mentioned it on a video you did today and I want to make sure we get some time for for uh for another person to come in but um, you mentioned that People are not going to be taking gospel tracks as easily anymore just like right now

So I do think a lot of our materials are built that way kind of built to be handed to people

I i'm trying to just rack my brain of like how you would get the gospel to somebody

Without handing it to him, you know something, you know tracks and stuff like that are pretty much I don't know

At least for a while probably not going to be accepted by most people Yeah, I mean unless you hand it to him with a glove on Maybe then they'll accept it.

But uh Yeah, you know what? I think this is where open air preaching Has some huge advantages is for us to be able to go out and preach the gospel old school stuff.

All right. Yeah um Yeah, I think and and like kt is saying, you know, maybe maybe we need to move to online tracks.

Maybe we need video and I think that We we got to be creative.

We're going to have you know, and I think Rob, you're right that we need to be ahead of the curve and thinking about it.

So Uh, here's what i'm going to do. I'm going to put at least uh, I'm going to put rob In the in the backstage.

Um, you guys don't have don't take off. Um, but i'm going to put rob and i'll put James tim i'm going to put you in backstage.

Just we're going to bring i'm going to keep anthony here and bring in Uh, I think help me pronounce your name.

Is it rod rodney? Oh, hey. Yeah, ron d. It's like randy Okay, ron d.

All right Here you find so, uh, so you so we have a mutual friend As he said in the in the chat with brian simmons and you had a theological question

Yeah, yeah real quick. I heard you guys talking about the um, the preaching and the tracks and everything Uh, the best thing is my two cents or my one and a half cents is that when we preach

It's like god is stripping down all the everything that we can use To try and get by and I notice even myself sometimes when

I see somebody I feel like intimidated I don't want to share the gospel. It's really easy to wait until i'm about to leave and just hey, here you go

And then run away basically, you know get out of dodge, but the truth is when you do preach

What you're doing is you're you're putting yourself out there to suffer reproach, you know How many times people flip the bird if you were?

Oh, you're so high and mighty you think you got it all, you know Figured out and what happens is we get to share the reproach of christ and really identify

With jesus and say man, this is what he went through a righteous man being called a sinner even though he wasn't

So there's a great benefit in suffering with christ, you know, so that's just yeah but um

So you have a question? I'm sorry. Yeah Uh, I have a lot of questions now. I'm not gonna play like I don't you know, uh,

I don't know I know where you guys stand. I'm a firm believer in uh, the obedience is required for salvation obedience, uh differentiates between Uh living faith and dead faith, you know, uh the faith in ephesians 2 8 9 is true

It's not by works, but the james 2 Uh 26 through 31 confirms whether our faith is real or whether it's pseudo

What What is it? You said james 2? What was the verse? Uh, 14 through 26

Where he says faith that works is dead even the devil I just want I was glad because I wanted to make sure that you

That you brought up 14 because a lot of times people don't they start at 15 No, I mean the whole scriptures, but yeah, you know, uh, you say god is one, you know

You do well, even the devil's believe in trouble, but it's not that the works is what gets us It's the works is what validates our faith and makes us sheep rather than a goat and so and you know,

I I know a lot of you guys i've preached with a lot of people that you know and Uh down in new york city. I'm from new york.

I'm from yonkers and uh, and i've run into a lot of your friends uh, uh, tony and tom manman

Preach with them a problem that we had I don't want to take up all the speaking but a problem that we had is that We would preach and then we would disagree with things while we're preaching and then people would come up and talk to us

And we wouldn't even be able to agree on things in front of the person. Yeah, that makes it hard So so are you are you somebody who believes that you have not sinned since you got saved?

Oh, I believe that you were living perfectly. Absolutely. Well, there's two things It's the perfection of the mind that king asa had

You know, he was perfect in his mind and he agreed that it's true that you have to uh follow god

And obey him obviously You know first john 2 talks about little children young men and fathers

There's a maturity level you have to reach as you're learning the commandments of god You got to figure out what did he really mean when he said if your hand causes you to sing cut it off throw it wet

Yeah, so let's figure that out Let me do this so we work because I and and you're more than welcome to come back in so we get we'll deal with Different things, you know, um, just because i'm looking at at times.

So let me let me work through The passage in james 2 All right.

Is that with that? You're talking about 14 to 26. Yeah, so So let's let's work through this together.

It starts off and i'll you know, we'll um, The let me just ask one question first just so I understand do you do you believe that?

Uh, we should only be using the king james bible Well, not really because there's so many other languages out there that you know

I just I want to make sure if I use like an esv you're not going to get offended or anything As long as it's not like an nwt or something like that, you know

Okay, so you don't you don't mind if I use the the joseph smith version just not the new world translation.

Okay it's to use the one translation so we can go to a concordance on the same word if you want to get really

I can I can do that with mine. But um, thank you. Do you have nkjv at least? I you want

I could use nkjv just for the sake of you know, everybody hearing something something similar, you know, yeah, no don't want to Don't want to be an issue.

So A new king james is right there. So here we go

All right. So so first off it's it says in the new king james james, uh to starting in verse 14

What does it profit my brothers? if Someone says he has faith but doesn't have work.

So just based off that Because this is the question he's looking to answer right you have a person

That professes to have faith But they don't have works Along with it.

Can that faith save him? In other words the faith that's being discussed here is a faith

That doesn't have works associated Okay, there's any works we had there's three different types of works

Yeah, but but the the the first have to agree with what the faith is, right?

this Just real quick this faith that I see him speaking about from this whole section is not

Uh works of the levitical law circumcision sabbath keeping diet And it's definitely not good works apart from faith in christ.

Like I can't just give alms and get saved It's actually what jesus says a good tree bringing forth good fruit, so I would say these works would be good fruit

Correct. No, no, I wouldn't agree with you on that. So so Let's back up one more Actually the purpose of the book of james is to identify what genuine faith looks like and he gives 13 different tests

Whether it's the use of our tongue that showing favoritism love for money. Um, You know in this one it is he's talking about works

I agree the the works here are the works that we should see as a believer

So if we have someone who says they're a christian we should see the fruit of the spirit

Agreed. Yeah That's how a tree is known, right? Right. So the the faith being discussed here is someone who

Says they have faith and yet you don't see the works of christ in their life You don't see those works.

You don't see the work of the spirit. You don't see love self -control any any of that Yeah So now the question

One more thing. I want to add to that. It's not just The fruit of the spirit love peace joy patience kindness goodness, you know, so on But it's also obedience

To christ's commands, you know, like he said it's the commission because some I know a lot of people that are stand -up citizens

Excellent moral people, but they just will not step out and suffer with christ

They won't step out and put their neck out there and they just stay quiet You know, that's scary because you know, jesus said why do you call me lord lord and not do as I say, you know

Yeah, so so now the point that I want to mention here Is the faith he's talking about and the works he's talking about is in the area of sanctification

And not regeneration Okay so Let's agree on what sanctification means.

That's the very next thing I was going to do. So so sanctification Regeneration we'll start with that one regeneration is that point in time

For us where we went from being an enemy of god to a child of god, right where we we became a new creature where We have the holy spirit indwell us there.

I mean, there's a lot of things that happen simultaneously uh You know, I I have a detailed in my book.

What do they believe in this in the doctrine of salvation? Or what do we believe? Sorry Um, but what you what you see is that that's that point that when we we say we got saved

All right, but the word saved is a bad term because saved has a past tense present tense future past is that regeneration?

right where we went from being in a Sinner to being judged righteous in god's sight because of the transaction he took our sin

We got his righteousness that that occurs that's regeneration. That's a point time in the past for believers the then once that happens starts sanctification, so once We get regenerated

Is going to be a sanctifying process making us more and more in the image of christ until the day we die and that's future

Salvation, which is where we're glorified so that sanctification is a process Between the moment we're regenerated until the moment we die and are glorified.

Would you agree with that? Okay partially I agree that there is a maturity that has to happen there needs to we need to learn

The commandments of god in order to obey them Sanctification the way I see it is

We are sanctified at the moment meaning we are set apart as a peculiar holy people

Sanctification means to be made holy so we are called apart from the world the moment that we're saved

Of course, there needs to be a time where we experience something that we do wrong Maybe you know watching a show or doing something that's wrong and the spirit has to really

Move us to say that I don't like that. That's not good. And then we have to learn. Okay, what's going on?

Why do I feel this way? Of course early on there's many things that happen But as we mature we need to know okay according to the word of god and according to the spirit in me

I shouldn't be doing this And then we put it aside and we don't come back to it But I don't believe sanctification permits the works of the flesh to be like, okay, you're okay.

Don't worry about that I believe the works of the flesh could be the part of the grieving of the spirit And part of the quenching of the spirit to do despite of the spirit to strive with the spirit to to resist the spirit and eventually to have the spirit, uh departed or taken away or even quenched or even um, blasphemed

Which can happen to a believer. So let's let's Work through this because there's in in a sense

You're right that we are sanctified the word sanctification right it does mean to be set apart right and we are the in in one sense, we are set apart before the foundation of time because that's when we were elected but in another sense

We're called to be like he has I I don't believe like I believe in corporate election meaning there's a group

Uh that is elect and you can be included in that group if you would just repent believe and pursue meaning endure

Uh, not by your will but by the grace of god by his divine Okay, so we'll we could talk let's we'll pick that one up again.

So many things. Yeah. No, they're fine We could we could work through these things. I mean, that's that's fine But so as we as we work through this this one text though, right?

We're we're seeing that the the faith Faith specifically being spoken about is the faith of a person that professes to be a christian

But doesn't have the works That would proceed with regeneration Do you see that Yeah, yeah, of course you got yeah, you got a person who says

I believe that god is one like he says in the next verse And there is one god

But then he doesn't uh, you know, he's selfish or He's not clothing his you know, he got a brother or sister that's naked or destitute and he's not caring for him

And that's only one example though. There's many. Oh, no, no, but he that but the point is the example

So so here here's the reason i'm I I start in verse 14 When we start here

We see that this is not talking about regeneration It can't because of the fact that the faith being discussed as a person who says he already has the faith

Yeah, he already has the faith you have to work yeah, he even says my brother He's talking to if a brother or sister be naked

You know brother sister is a person in christ. It's not my strangers. He's just in particular situation

He's talking about brothers and sisters. These are regenerated people. He's talking to Well, he's saying he's saying that if if a brother or sister

You got someone that says they're a christian and you got someone that's a that they're saying is a brother or sister

And they're naked and he doesn't care for them He doesn't he just he just says hey depart and be warm and filled.

That's Yeah, i'll pray for you. Yeah, um, he says that it that Faith that faith that's the person who's saying

I have faith But I can I can see someone that i'm calling a brother or sister and I can just say hey be warm and filled

When they're they're starving and hungry and they're and they're cold and I can just walk away or as you said pray for them

That faith that that person has is dead. Yeah Because that what he's saying is that's not a genuine faith.

It's not a genuine faith because it didn't have the works preceded but It's not saying that works are necessary For the regeneration, you know why?

Because this as we said is talking about the person who says he already has a faith well

The entrance Into faith if it's the thing that happens after that.

Do you see that? Yeah, so so the question is this Uh in matthew 1 21, you want a real quick thumb there?

Yeah, because say listen I could be saved from you know, uh a bully at school I could be saved from drowning.

I could be saved from many things or the word could be used many different ways. Yeah, but I was trying to be really specific in The in the term when we say faith faith can be many different ways

The way he's using it in james 2 is about the sanctification process not the regeneration process

Okay, so so we can be regenerated And we can err from the truth. We can we can uh wander from the truth

And and be pierced with many pangs and sorrows like like uh, it says in um, first timothy 6

Even says in the last verse he says they have erred from the truth, you know Even alexander and hymenaeus were handed over to satan

Yeah the destruction of the flesh that their soul might be saved But the the thing to the thing

I don't i'm not trying to cut you off You know, but when we work through the text what i'm trying to what i'm just trying to show with the james 2

Is it can't it we can't use that verse To argue that works save us

Okay Because it's speaking about someone who is saying he already has faith

He's already regenerate, but he doesn't have works that That's where we disagree

Where I believe yes a person can have the faith and come to the lord and then you know

Have all this money and be deceived by sin and then say you know what? I'm, not gonna help that guy, you know

He has money already or he squandered his money. Let him suffer, you know, I think i'm wondering.

Um, A couple of things is maybe we should bring him on in like two weeks. Andrew. I mean, would you be willing to?

Will you guys be willing to do a show just on this in two weeks? Yeah, I think next week we have my we have a debate right?

Announce that yet Thanks. Let's announce that a minute I know that this can go on for a long it's gone

But but it's it's a good topic us. Yeah So why don't we do it if you if you're going to be around let's see

Let me make sure i'm going to be around. Um, it'll be it'll be the thursday before Easter I believe right

My uh, I have a let's don't celebrate easter. We celebrate resurrection sunday. I have expected on thursday, so Um tomato tomato third, uh, april night.

I didn't say easter bunny April 1st

I have a expected uh procedure with my wife. She's going to deliver a baby. So oh Yeah, so the ninth may not

On the ninth You around on the ninth? Uh, that's tentative because obviously newborn and everything.

Yeah, it's gonna be crazy for you You know, why don't why don't you guys exchange information and let's just plan a future show?

Yeah, but I do have this question for you like do you Do you believe apostle paul was saved when he wrote romans?

Absolutely. I mean here's the thing. Okay, so but hold on but hold on a second I mean i'm asking this question for this reason if you believe paul was saved when he wrote romans

It it this is it conflicts with what you are telling us in sinless perfectionism.

This is paul's writing in romans 7 Starting in verse 15. I do not understand my own actions for I do not do what

I want But I do the very thing I hate Now if I do what I do not want I agree with the law that is good

So now it is no longer I who do it but sin that dwells within me Okay, so if I know that nothing dwells in me

But I mean we can we can go on but I mean paul was obviously a sinner. Well, hold on hold on Because i'm gonna

I have to be fair and do the same thing with you. I did Is it rodney?

Ron like rondy is like randy Okay, rondy so Romans chapter 7 we're not gonna have time to get into this but if you look through Roman 7 you're gonna see that he changes tech.

He changes tenses of his verbs. So He ends up going into the past tense

When he's when he says and he talks about the things he doesn't want to do He does the things he doesn't want to do

I actually will argue that he's going he's going back in time and talking about how he got saved I don't think that's a good verse.

However I think you could look at second timothy where he says that um where he ends up saying that he is um

That he's a chief of sinners a better one though for what you were saying anthony Chief means if you look at the next verse, he says that first in me god would show his mercy

Yeah chief in the archaic term means the first and which is among the gentiles.

He was one of the first um He wasn't we also have paul writing in romans 3

Hold on, let me give you let me give you the one better to use for that anthony and it's it's first chapter 2

First peter chapter 2. He says beloved. I urge you as sojourners and and exiles to abstain

From the passions of the flesh which wage war against your soul now here.

He's making it very clear That he's speaking to believers Who are sojourners in this world?

But yet there is a war that rages in their soul That's actually a passage that would express the same thing

I think that you were trying to in roman 7 But I don't think roman 7 it would be good because I I think when we look at the roman 7 passage

We I think that's he's actually talking about him getting coming to regeneration. Yeah, can I can

I speak? um with With the whole roman 7 thing You know paul throughout the whole book of romans.

He presents arguments and then he knocks him down It's like he's setting it up and knocking down because he knows there's no there's no conversation

So he has to set up their question just to answer it. So in chapter 6 and what's your name?

Um, Anthony Nice to meet you. I would say read chapter 6

And read chapter 8 because I know I mean I used to believe in and what you guys believe in and I would read in spots

But when I read 6 then 7 then 8 I noticed that he says if in 8 he says 8 30

If we live according to the flesh we shall die But if we do mortify the deeds of the flesh by the spirit

So speaking to living people he's talking about spiritual death spiritual life Well, I want to challenge you to read that and really

You know, I think I think I mean, yeah, we're we're gonna we'll have to pick this up. We'll Time we get into more because I think

I think You know the one thing That we don't want to do is jump all around Yeah, and and and the thing is is what

You know what? You're going to see with me when we go through things like this It's stick to one text work through it then move to the next text work through it because it's very easy to proof text

It's very easy to grab a verse here grab a verse there And you string them together and it looks like it makes an argument but you may be taking each of those out of its context without realizing it and you know, we we have to be careful with um,

How we use the terminology and the words to assume that you know, like we said earlier just because it says faith

It doesn't mean someone coming to faith. It it's talking about someone that says they already have a faith right

So the question with with the james too, and this is why I say you it can't be used

The the way that the the roman catholics will use it the way the mormons will use it Um, you know, it sounds like the way you you did use it.

I don't know if this is what you meant by it But it's the way That I often hear it used is to say that this is proof that you need works

To be saved not after salvation, but to get saved No, the the salvation jesus said come to me as one of his little ones and I will no wise cast you out, right?

He says, uh, unless you be converted Into a child you shall no wise enter in It's not

I don't have to bring my works with me. I come like a like a silly little child I need to be saved from my sins

Now matthew 1 21 says the virgin shall bring forth a child and they shall call him jesus or joshua

Which means he shall save his people from their sins. So initial faith is salvation from sin

Uh, if we go real quick and I we have to prove text, but i'm trying to stick close Yeah, but but see when you say we have to prove text.

Yeah, you have an error If you can't stay within the immediate context the way that we that we do interpretations

The one of the basic rules of interpretation is we we interpret within the immediate context first, right?

Before going to another passage then and when you go to another passage You have to interpret that within its immediate context, right?

And they can't contradict each other and when there's a contradiction then you have to either let go of one or change your mind

So when jesus, uh saves us, I want to make sure I understand what you're saying though Are you do you because you you were saying that works are necessary for salvation?

No initial salvation. So there's two, you know, jesus said straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leadeth unto life

Okay Instead of giving me all the the scripture verses what

I what I need to gather from you is an understanding of what you're trying to argue Here initially there's two salvations.

What are the two salvation first initially saved from sin the power of sin Uh in our lives when we're saved and we're given the holy spirit to give us that uh,

Amplified conscience. Okay, so Okay, well that would be would that be what

I refer to as regeneration, yeah, of course regenerate, uh It's into what like you said before indwell by the spirit forgiven of our past sins

Because that's what he says in second peter, you know He whoever is short -sighted he's forgotten that he has been forgiven for his the past sins

Um the future sins in order for them to be forgiven. We have to do it first. John. Uh, one nine says if we confess

Then he is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness So there needs to be a confession of the sin

We can't just be forgiven for a sin and just say i'm already forgiven that you know that that's presumption

So we got to make sure that we acknowledge the sin confess it Uh ask god for his grace, you know, my grace is sufficient for thee

So help me understand when you say what is the second? so second is to um

To endure on the narrow path to pick up like jesus said in in luke 9 23

He said if any man come after me let him deny himself Pick up his cross and follow me which is what disciple means to him

What what is what do we say from there? Once we get to the end of our faith and we hear the words well done good and faithful servant

At that point we are saved from this wicked and adulterous generation so Judgment, so you're saying that second salvation is is glorification when we die

And we no longer have a body of evil in us Well at that point, um, i'm saying the second salvation is the completion of the race like we hear in uh, first corinthians uh

Kept the faith i've You know if you look at second corinthians chapter five in that whole chapter there

That's what we talked about creation, right? You know, but that is That so that's that's glorification that's from moment we die

No glorification comes when we die right when we complete. Okay. So my question you an easy way to figure that one out

Is and by the way, i'm enjoying this discussion, you know, I really uh, I really care for you guys I care for everybody but I do have a heart for any brother that professes jesus christ

So what I see in in first corinthians, I mean second corinthians five is that um, you know, you have a new creation

Glorification comes at the end of the race So a good test would be to ask yourself

Which one of my brothers? Like anthony is it you said? Yeah anthony uh brother andrew

Would you say that anthony is going to complete the faith and stand for the throne of god as a sheep man?

Not him. I don't even know if he's good Wrong question

I'm not saying that you don't observe Say hey The thing I would say is this you know, and i'm still trying to I to answer the question.

I think that that every believer Will finish the race for a simple reason

The the payment of sin was paid at the cross Two thousand years ago, there's no payment of sin in the life of a believer

That god didn't know about When he paid it he paid every sin we do is is future to the cross every one of them so The payment was made back at the cross

So there's no sin that wasn't paid for for the believer The but the thing i'm trying to get to is when exactly because because you're saying

That the the salvation the second salvation is not Glorification But then everything that you're saying it is so when does this second salvation happen?

Does it happen the moment we die? Uh, the second salvation happens at the throne

When we stand before god and he puts the sheep on the right hand and the goats on the left

The second salvation happens when the wheat and the tares are separated The second salvation happens good fish bad fish genuine or counterfeit

That when we you know, like he says in romans 8 You know all creation groans in the anticipation of the revelation of the sons of god

So there's going to be a revelation even uh, first corinthians, uh four He says judge nothing until the appointed time when god will make manifest

The counsels and intents of the heart and render unto each man according to his deeds and paul says

I don't even judge myself You know, he says it is god who will judge me so we can

I can say hey anthony You're bearing fruit that you have been regenerated You're andrew man.

You're really showing me that you have a heart for the lord however there is another uh element that's required which is obedience and not to um,

Err from the faith and pursue. Okay. I mean, let me ask this question to try and understand if someone is

Genuinely regenerated. Yeah and They start to live a lifestyle of of sin

Would they be losing their salvation? They would forfeit it. Yeah, they would because they they uh, what they did is they counted the uh,

Pleasure of this world more worthy than suffering reproach with the people of god when you want to I want to understand it's part of the answer but so You're you're believing

Yeah that so when you speak of the works You're saying that we get this second Salvation, it's not until we're glorified that we can get that but you're saying that you think that a person

Can lose his salvation, correct? Yes. Okay When was the salvation when when was the payment?

Salvation from that's what i'm trying to say the salvation from Well When our trespasses, yes, okay,

I agree we're agreeing on that so When were they paid? They were paid at the cross, but okay

But we're not traversalists what he said Hold on, you gotta break this down slowly break break this

I want to work slowly through this we understand at the cross We're only some of the we're only some of the sins

Paid for or all of them paid for All the sins of the whole world were potentially paid for potentially

Potentially right because the bible says that he is the savior of the world and not only for our sins

But also for the sins of the whole world, but there is something required For us to reap that which is called

Faith. Yeah, but in the way you're you're given that that's when someone gets regenerated.

You're saying they're regenerated and Then god paid for some of their sins on the cross, but not all of their sins on the cross

No, no, he paid for all the sins, but we have to repent from our sin And he says obviously if we've continued if we've been willfully there remains no more sacrifice so we can

Throw that sin away on that salvation away like saul When he was king, he threw the sin away through salvation way like the church of sardis

He says I have you have a name that you've lived but you are dead Repent therefore. Otherwise, I will

Take your candlestick away, you know, so there's there's a lot of things we could do to forfeit that stuff We could be spewed out

Here here's the thing i'm saying, okay You're jumping to this verse this verse this verse this verse and i'm watching you take

That has been forfeited So it's i'm trying to make this kind of simple so we can understand this

If christ paid for the sin at the cross, yeah, so it's paid for correct

It's it's potentially paid for He paid for our sin, right? You're saying that you have a person who he died on the cross paid that price

Yeah, but only for the sins that he committed for the first 10 years of his life. No, no after that I'll give you an example the two thieves on the cross did christ pay for both of their sins um

That that's not the same analogy because you don't have two people That he paid you're you're saying that for your argument to be true

Christ if if you lived as a christian in your in what you're saying you live for 10 years

You're regenerated 10 years you live as a christian and then you reject the gospel.

Yeah You're saying that only the first 10 years of his life the payment of sin was paid for After that it wasn't okay.

So so let me let me expand on that example. Let's say Uh, joe some guy named joe.

He's a close brother. We've we've went out preaching together He's really deep in the word and he's really giving alms and doing many things to back up his faith for 10 years and then all of a sudden

He says no, I don't want to follow jesus anymore You know i'm gonna be an mma fighter and i'm gonna go for my own glory, you know

This this walk is too hard and I don't want to really do this anymore. I hate jesus I'm, just speaking as a another person.

He would say I hate jesus and uh, I don't want to even be with him The scripture has an answer for that Okay, first john chapter 2 verse 19

It gives the that answer they went out from among us But they were not

Of us, okay that that's They they were in the group, but guess what they were not of us.

They were never were it says For if they had been of us, they would have continued with us.

There you go. I agree went out That it might be made manifest that they were not

You're dealing with there is not someone who was saved and lost it You're dealing with someone who has never saved.

He was a hypocrite that stopped pretending. Okay But wait, see this is why my question came in the beginning

How do you know? That any one of your close brothers, right? Listen, I baptize people and walk with them

And then all of a sudden they're in the bar drinking and like i'm going back to the catholic church I'm going back to this church.

I'm gonna be a mormon again And i'm like what in the world happened this guy i'll tell you what happened.

They were a hypocrite that stopped pretending That's what that verse is How do you know that somebody's not going to get stricken?

With something and then reject christ in the end and it proves to be never Or according to you

Well, this is the difference. I'm, not god. I don't see his heart. There you go I look at that scripture verse and say they were never a christian.

That's what the verse says Okay, so so we're not of us anthony. I'm, sorry to use as an example, please forgive me but will anthony

Make it to the end or not improve like you said by continuation That he was genuine in that kind of thing.

Well, I I could never know that he could never know that of me so By your own admission, you are admitting that a genuine a continuation in the faith is required to know no

The reason it read this let's read this verse again because it tells you the man. I I have a question

Let me just know but in all seriousness. Ronnie. Are you are you trying to listen to andrew and understand what he's trying to say?

I used to believe what andrew believes okay because when we see these discussions a lot and and like sometimes people will come on and And just want to make their own point heard

And want to speak the whole time and not actually listen and process. Oh, i'm definitely listening So I I just want to make sure you're this we're not wasting andrew's time

You're listening and you're processing and trying to understand what he's what he's coming at you with Um, he's trying to be very tender with you in your position because your position is wrong

And he's trying to help you through this position Well, it's i'm trying to help you guys see so this is the thing we have two different foundations

Yeah, no, I I would agree. Yeah Foundationally, it's different Ron d ron d ron d.

Sorry, I don't mean to be getting it wrong. I'm trying hard ron d. Here's here's the difference Okay I'm able to do something that you're not able to do

I can stick to one text and work through it You you can't seem to do that You have to jump to make your argument you have to jump all over and take things out of its context

And all i'm doing is looking at the context, right? So let's look at what what's first john chapter 2 19 says

I jump around i'm doing i'm just doing line upon line Precept upon precept here a little there a little to try and prove that the whole scriptures say the same thing

You read that the the verse you just quoted if you actually read that in context You would know that's a judgment on you then

Which one? Is the judgment I know

I read that again, but Let's go Not here a little there a little the the whole thing.

He's condemning is in isaiah is exactly what what you're doing So so let's look at this at the context.

It's it's quite clear They went out from us. So you have a group of people. Yeah a group in the church not all

So a group of people that were in the church that went out from us and what does that prove? But they were not of us.

So even though they were in the group, they were not part of the church And how can you determine who's gonna who's gonna you don't have to determine i'm not god

So so so are you determined? You know how I determine it when they die

And when I die and we see each other but here's the thing you have backwards you're saying that That obedience keeps you saved.

That's not what that verse says That verse says that if you were of us because that's exactly what it says here

If you I mean it's answering the question for you If they had been of us, that's what you're saying

You're asking that question if they were of us. How do you answer these guys that leave us? What do

I say about that exactly what it says if they had been of us They would have continued with us

They would have continued why they don't can they don't As required, you know the the reason they are with us is because they're regenerated

The regeneration is what keeps us because at regeneration We are changed

We can't But but see now you're being double -minded you're saying at regeneration in the past, but they will continue but you don't know who's going to continue

And so not to jump around, okay, wait, wait, wait, look, let me be really clear You can never know this side of heaven who's saved because you are not all knowledgeable.

That's right. I you know, I Because in order to uh

In order to obtain a minister or a bishop we have to know he has to be blameless he has to be

Not a recent what? convert, right, right, so Life the whole point is

All we have to go off of and what you're looking at when someone says is that personal believer you're looking at fruit

You're looking do they have the work Go along with salvation, but those words do not keep us saved.

We do those works because we're saved In james chapter 2 so give me a second just give me a second so we can be

Clear so you're telling me that the works show whether we're saved or not, right?

Yes, if we if we are regenerated we will have fruit of the spirit following because the spirit will dwell well ron

Hold on a second ronnie. What do you mean by show? Because I think I think you guys are talking past one another here.

What do you mean by do the works show your saves? Uh, the works are the fruit that jesus said to look at the fruit and you'll see can a tree can a uh,

Olive berries growing of a fig tree, you know, he said no good tree bring forth good fruit and bad tree

Bring forth bad fruit. So this is the fruit. Jesus said beware of wolves by their fruit.

You shall know them So we got to be able to observe the fruit be able to make a determination Whether they're in christ or not and we can only know to a certain extent, you know, even paul says about timothy

I'm convinced or persuaded that the prophecy about you is true from your mother unison and his grandmother

So he's persuaded he's convinced, but he's not going to say okay, you're going all the way

He's exhorting people to continue in the faith and not to depart from the faith. You get it like we hear from hebrews

Uh not to jump around. I don't want to get yeah, but you just you just did you you just knew about eight verses of scripture

And and at least four of them I picked up are out of context. So this It's true you could say only one but the context is that you know, he says, uh, holy no, you're not proving that So ronnie,

I have a question. I kind of want to break the cycle for a moment. What is the gospel? I asked you how I can be saved.

What is the gospel? Let's go there first corinthians 15. Would you agree? That's gospel he's um

What verses 15 one through four, would you agree? So read it to me.

I would agree that that is the All right, let me do it and you know what we used to even have it when I was in the plumes brethren

Church, we had the you know christ died for our sins up on the top of the uh behind the uh stage

So he says And I hope we can all get there together matter of fact Maybe we should each read a verse

Uh, i'll read. Um, well Just read it. It's okay. I I haven't memorized

The issue is is he asked you a question? Yeah, see that for you to explain your your understanding of what the gospel message is

He didn't ask you to read scripture so you can say well, there's the gospel. Okay, so Knowledge of what the gospel message.

Yes. So ronnie, how about you read it to me and then explain it to me? Yeah, so it also says by this gospel you are saved

If keep in memory that which was preached unless you have believed in vain That of first importance that christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and that he was raised from the dead according to the script to the scriptures and that he was seen by uh, peter and the apostles and over 500 at one one time so the gospel is

That jesus christ died for our sins and was raised back to life

But that's not the only aspect if we listen to 15 2, he says by this gospel you are saved

If there's a condition you keep in memory that which was preached unless you have believed in vain

It's possible to believe and then not keep it in memory and then all the past believing was in vain.

Okay Let me let me ask let me ask you a quick question You're you're basing it on that word.

If Yeah, okay what What type of clause is that Okay, so when you have a a conditional clause, there's there's four different conditional clauses

That are translated as the word if Which one is that? Well, i'm not an english major, but I do understand as a child would understand.

So is it? Let me ask it this way Word if that is that means that traditional word it means if you don't do this

You don't get this if you don't eat your you're not gonna get let me Let me give you the clauses so you can

There's a clause that says it's conditional a If you do a b happens There's a condition where it's if a

Because of a Or since a b is going to happen. So in other words, it's not an a one causes the other it's

One happens because of that the other is going to happen you see the difference between those two

Yeah, but I don't think that's what's happening here. He's saying Stop stop Tell me what what type of clause it is then?

Well, this is that's a you because you can't do what you just did you can't say you can't try to say

I don't know the greek. This is what calvin is They find well i'll tell you what's the stats on something and then you can't answer it and then

I try to Dis dis devalue you or discredit you? No, what i'm doing is i'm saying this you you cannot ignore you if you're going to sit here and say

That you don't know the greek at all and then say You don't know what type of clause this is

Next move is all the okay. What type of clause is it? No, but that's the thing you're telling me You're adding greek

As a qualification to be saved. No, i'm not. I'm adding greek to understand

What the language is and what's meant by that because you're misreading it, okay, so I understand To understand scriptures read

If you keep in memory That which was preached on your argument is based on this one word if Give you many scriptures.

Okay, so so you should be you you were saying But So so is that word if there should is that mean that since someone is saved they will hold fast

Or does it mean that you're only saved if you hold fast? Which one of the greek clauses is that and if you don't know the answer that then you should not use this verse

Until you study that out. Well, I did study it out and I know I I know it's a condition

It's a condition It's a condition which one of the four additional clauses is it it didn't okay

So so do you have faith in the translators that say um, they should have said Uh, you will continue you're avoiding the answer.

No, i'm not This you're hinging on the word and any first year greek student would tell you that there's four conditional greek

Four conditional clauses and they can have a radically different meaning and if you're not going to read it

Right, then you're not going to come to the right answer So tell me you tell me what you think it says so I can tell you whether about the spirit whether it's true or not

You're wait Now now you're you're deferring You said, you know, you said you studied.

Yeah, I did I want you to admit that you don't you haven't studied this well enough to know which of the four clauses it is

No, i'm not worried about the clauses I understand that there is a requirement to keep in memory that which was preached because you can't believe in vain

I don't need to know uh english to be saved. I don't need to know We're done here and i'll tell you why we're done

We're done because of this one more word or are you I'm going to tell you why because You have a problem that you don't see

You you just said you don't know the language But you know, it can't be anything but what you believe it is no, that's what it says it's plain english

English and it but it wasn't written in english. It was written in greek Okay, so you you have to look at what the greek says if you're going to if you're going to one word

Yeah, because what you what you're doing is you're taking the word if and you're ignoring the word on the last and you have you have two options here, right it says

It's It's if you keep in memory what I preach unto you unless you believed in vain

Yeah, right. You got two Well say it in the greek so we can understand it So so I don't

I don't know the greek but I guess what i'm telling you is that even in the even in the english You have it wrong.

The english is plain as day here You don't have to know the you don't have to know the condition on this to be able to read this in context

You're choosing to read this in an in an incorrect fashion Um, so we don't have to keep it in memory

I didn't say that the ones who keep it in memory are the ones who are saved that is what he's saying here

For how long do they keep it in memory? well obviously Okay.

So now Let's let's get let's get into this because the pre one of the presuppositions you have is that people can can lose their salvation

Where we would say script Scripture is clear That's that that he who began a good work in you will complete it

So he didn't say he didn't say he will let's go to that scripture. That's another one Well, I I I and we'll go to that in a little bit my main concern right now

I mean we also have ephesians one he that the spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance. We're sealed by the spirit

We got plenty but but the point is is if if i'm walking up to you on the street in new york

What can you tell me? How can I be saved? trust in the lord

And lean not on your own understanding Ask the lord jesus christ to forgive you of all your sins and believe that he died for your sins and came back to life

That is how you could be saved from your sins Just that's it No, you've added a bunch of works this whole time.

No. No, that's what I was adding the works to keeping it That's why there's babies in christ and there's more mature.

It's not all just believe that he died because jesus said, uh to those who believed on him If you continue in my word then are you my disciples indeed and you shall know the truth

And the truth shall set you free. Whoever sins is Why according to the passage that we looked at?

Why does one continue? because they believe See that this is the thing you have it backwards

They have it backwards. What if they stop believing in 10 years? I I will keep going back to the same verse that's in john chapter

Second first john chapter 2 19. They went out from among us because they were never of us

They were of us and lost it. It's they were not of us that only applies to certain people like you could say alexander hymenaeus philetus diatrophy

You just made a clean we're gonna we're gonna work with this you give me the scripture verse that says that that first john

Only applies to the people you mentioned I don't

By that time so I'll give you one right now the the five virgins

Without what did jesus say to those five virgins that came and not that red herring? We're not doing that.

You're not going to jump off I gave you scripture that was given to To the the church, right?

We have this this scripture that tells us the exact answer to the question second

First john chapter 2 verse 19. You said that only applies to a few people

That group of people I don't know how many or few But it's not everybody some people do go out because they were never of us

But there are others who will depart from the faith like first timothy six. Uh, you know many um, he says, uh,

That they have uh, you know, if we have food and raining, let us beware with content they uh, and they left even

Yeah, and why they left because they were not of us Okay, so i'll give you james james 5 19 to 20.

Let's do that. That's a perfect. That's not a red herring I hope I hope folks see what exactly what he's doing here me too

Can't stay to one verse. So you just said give me another verse and i'm doing I asked you for a verse to prove the point you made i'll give you one right now

Okay, and it's going to name those people and say that they that they that it only applies to them Okay, so here it is ready

He says brethren if any of you James 5 19 to 20

Brethren, if any of you Talk to the brothers error from the truth error means wander and one convert him

He converts him remember let him know that he which converteth the sinner

Formerly a brother now a sinner from the error of his way will save shall save a soul from death

And shall hide a multitude of sins so What do you claim? What is it?

That doesn't say that someone lost their salvation. That's a brother That was he's a brother.

That's right a brother who's sinning that happens every day, right? So what is he saving him from if he says he'll save his sword the error of his way

Right, if he says he'll save his soul from death not his body his soul Received from death and he shall cover a multitude of sins because He converted him from the error of his way

So if he continued on the hour of his way, where would he end up dead dead? No, he wouldn't that's what the bible says

I mean, no Okay, that's what you assume the bible says See, okay.

I'm gonna let you go. I just want to say one last thing and I really This isn't like i'm against you.

I'm not I don't consider you guys opponents I have been where you guys were and I kept stumbling into sin

It was because I was lending my ear to calvin and luther and they become idols And every time

I get I gather teachers to tell me why each year's running here What I want to say is for you is that the word is sufficient and god's grace, which is divine

Here's the problem. So you can come to the lord. Jesus christ fully or you could be a slave to master ron ron

You don't believe that you can come to the lord fully if you believe you can come to the lord fully That lord paid the penalty in full on the cross

But we're in future and future sins past future sins. He paid for rondy rondy rondy rondy you talked a lot tonight and and I care about your soul you went the wrong direction you are exactly

You're exactly the person that andrew talks about in first john, too You are that person who has walked away from the faith

Oh and what that would say is that you were never saved to begin with can I be saved in the future?

You were never well look according what you're telling us you were never saved to begin with And so I pray that you do get saved

I pray that you understand the real gospel in the bible And that the bible teaches that it is not your own doing is not of the result of works that you may boast

That it is strictly his death and resurrection It is strictly his death and resurrection that paid the penalty of your sins

Past present future and so that you do continue to sin right now You will continue to send the rest of your life and you have to rest in the in christ

Don't have peace you can't have peace in yourself ron You can't have peace in yourself that you can somehow keep the law the way the pharisees tried to do

You can't keep the law. You can't keep it. No rondy rondy. Let me let me explain why he's saying this.

Okay Oh, wait, I want to say one more thing, uh, anthony you brought up philippians 1 6 I want to correct you on that maybe for the future just so you don't do it again he says

Being confident of this very thing that he which began a good work in you will perform it until the day of jesus christ

Being confident of something because I observe something is true. I can't be confident. Hey, my brother he's been suffering

He's got water bottles thrown at him. He's had condoms spit on him everything and he's still preaching

Gay pride trying to save these poor souls I am confident that this brother is going to continue and that god's going to continue the work that he began

But it's not a guarantee that'll happen because i've had brothers fall away and I have brothers that felt

You missed the point who does the completing work in that verse

What is it? Read that verse again That completes the work. Is it you?

God Right, but he calls us to reply answer the question who completes the work

We are co -workers with god called laborers with god first corinthians three. We are it's called.

Uh, just look at Now i'm gonna i'm gonna ask this a third time Yeah God verse and what did you first say?

Yeah, not because you're you this is this is a great example. You're telling anthony he's wrong And yet what are you doing?

You're not reading the verse I just you're getting it out of its context. He's confident that god will complete the work in him, but you can reject

You can grieve the spirit you can quench the spirit You just added to scripture repent of that It says being confident this very thing that he speaking of god who began a good work in you

Will complete it until the day of jesus christ There is nothing in there that says but you also work with him.

You added that to script That's in first corinthians three, why don't you read that? No, we're reading philippians 1 6

Ronnie this is the thing i'm saying to you and I want you to want to be And then when I proof text it doesn't work.

But when you proof text it works Andrew's not proof texting. He's reading the verse. I'm gonna believe Listen, okay, ronnie.

Let me try this again. I'll read it Look your confidence. Are you? Philippians 1 6 for I am confident this very thing that he capital h.

He god Who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of christ.

Jesus is nasb, right? Yeah, this is this is what andrew said it is god who holds you fast.

It is god Who who does who who keeps you? In the palm of his hands.

Why didn't he do it to the one who? Why didn't he do for a hundred? We're never a believer I read that back to first john 2

Stop trying to teach and try to listen. Okay. I know that you you you think that you know this but here's the problem

The way that I know you're wrong Is because you can't follow the rules

Because calvin is your god, that's the problem Because you know what you're telling me so you're telling me that I who didn't mention

Calvin at all Adulterer you call him a great man You call luther who calls you an adulterer a great man

Can you show me where I said that about either one of them? Do you what do you think about luther? I haven't said that you you made a claim

Yeah, you just and What you did was you rejected everything that we showed you in scripture

For an argument. No You're not What are you gonna say? How do you feel about calvin?

I don't care about him. You don't care about the scripture. So what are you gonna deal with the scripture or Or is it that you just realized that your whole worldview just got blown up by scripture and you don't like it?

You're a calvinist and I know you fellowship with calvinist instead of rebuking your brother and now Hold it.

Ronnie. Are you do you go on the street and fellowship with with unbelievers? You're an unbeliever. There you go There's I just use your logic

I've become all these Argument that was your argument i'm a calvinist because I fellowship with calvinist

You're an unreject if you fellowship with unregenerate people, you're unregenerate. That was your argument.

So you're not saved That's why anthony preached the gospel to you Difference there's a difference. The problem is

That what you're doing is that you're not correcting your brothers and that's bad fruit because what does he say? He's trying to correct you right now

But you labor with them you just said it before Truth in uh, you said in in truth

Unity in all things charity or something like that. Yeah, I don't think either one of us said that tonight

Here you said in the sense. Oh, yeah, that was that was tim Liberty and in all things, uh charity

When you when you have a different view of salvation that's an essential That's not an essential because the essential is the doctrine of christ according to second john, uh, verse nine

Let him not even into your house Listen you stand condemned man.

You're a worker by your own Listen unable to cease from sin beguiling unstable souls

Folks can see this is the pride when when he he cannot Just listen Right.

Once you expose the false teaching they can't listen anymore Rebuking your love because no, you're not you're you're abusing me in pride is what you're rebuking me

You don't have scripture on your side. Rodney Procute that brother not suffers You shall love your neighbor as yourself

Then answer me this why can't you follow the rules of scripture and he's gonna say you're a worker of iniquity and yet you tell

What iniquity do I do? Rodney? So, you know, i'm not going to give it you guys I know you're not gonna you know, why because you've made a bunch of claims.

You can't support You've tried to reject everything that was said to you why The reason it's a very simple reason rodney

In your field you mix diverse seeds you got the word of god You got the word of calvin the word of luther the word of old

I don't I didn't give you any words in there to be any word for calvin. I gave you You don't like it.

You haven't mentioned those names at all Take a log out of your eye before you tell your brother. Let me remove the speck

You notice Rodney, do you notice that we weren't the ones that mentioned anything of calvin luther or any?

You were the one A straw man The the reality is

Did we mention john macarthur, no, we didn't okay, so Huh, it doesn't matter.

I gave you scripture and you're avoiding it When you resort to logic

Like ad hominems your argument failed no, it didn't I know you're wrong

We didn't bring up calvin luther macarthur or any of it. I gave you scripture correct them

You don't correct the followers of those and you yourself are not wrong because they're agreeing with what scripture says

What does it say here what does it say here he began a good work He's completed

God will complete it. Not you. He's confident. Oh, he will so that we have no part in the in the city

So why are we calling people to repent and believe then? Why where's the command? Why did you just say why do you?

Okay. Oh, this is great. So you're saying that people save themselves. Is that what you're saying? It's up to us to believe we have a choice up to us

It's up to you Let me let me Explain something to you

Let me explain something to you Okay, there's a way to know if you have a man -made religion

It's very simple. It's an objective thing. You could do with every religion. You could do with mormonism Jehovah witnesses you could do with islam buddhists muslims roman catholics all have one thing in common human effort

How can I count it? You you just contradicted what you said to anthony when he asked you what the gospel is for you

The gospel is not That christ did it all you just said it's that you have to do it

So then what about okay, the church of sardis? What did jesus say to that? I mean, you know, the reality is rondy,

I mean, let's Ronnie, let's let's be honest rondy. Your your theology is consistent with the roman catholic

I mean, I literally this is the exact same. This is the exact same conversation. I have with roman catholics consistently

So you literally are a roman catholic and you need the gospel I go to roman catholic churches and I preach to them to stop committing idolatry.

No, you should you should attend You should attend a roman catholic church You know in their pews because you have the exact same theology as a roman catholic

That's that's your i'm just saying you you are a roman catholic You need to repent no repents and and I pray that she gets saved because you are a roman catholic

You're exactly the you're exactly the yoke. That is that is that the bible Yes, you can't even tell your brother to repent from his sins because you're a sinner too

No, we can Telling you do you you're a roman catholic ronnie wait, you know why you're not listening

I'm listening. No, you know You're not taking it you're mixing And you just answered it.

Thank you. The reason you're not listening is because you think you're the teacher here You think you're the one who has all the answers

Teacher the teacher is the scripture that you cannot interpret following rules of interpretation

You have to jump all over Like the jehovah witnesses do and the mormons and the black hebrews relates in every other false group and the catholics

You cannot interpret in context You know what

I just want to encourage you guys to read what happens to the churches in chapter two and three of revelation Jesus said thou art dead

He said repent Otherwise, I will come upon you as a thief and you will not know the day or hour that I come

You still have a few souls in sardis who have not defiled their garments who gets the garments? Who gets garments believers are unbelievers?

I'm being defiled and even removed and then we could expose our shame and our nakedness and jesus said you're the church for started

He said save them from with fear snatching them from the fire hating even the garden another rule of interpretation

By the flesh you took something that was specific rondy rondy here. Here's the verse

Here's the passage I want for you rondy is but even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel

Contrary to what we have preached to you. He is to be accursed as we have said before So I say again now if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received

He is to be accursed and that's here's the earth that I want to read you're preaching You're preaching a false gospel and you were accursed

This is this is the gospel This couch was preached unless you believed in this is exactly.

Oh, this is exactly Galatians is a works belief in Galatians against a

Gospel a roman catholic gospel and that is a rondy gospel brethren Take heed lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief and departing from the living god

But exhort one another daily while it is cold today Lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin for we are made partakers of christ

If we hold the beginning of our confidence when steadfast to the end rondy

You need to listen to that verse because it applies to you Rondy you know, you know in uh, you know, hold up in debate in debate circles rondy

Hey rondy in debate circles Is the way that the way that people know when somebody

When somebody has lost their cool and they know they've lost a debate Is when they have to consistently talk over everybody else.

We have sat back. We have listened to you We have let you speak We have let you say what you needed to say and every time that andrew or I have said something

You continually try to talk over us and don't listen. This is this is classic for somebody who knows they lost

You I I I again Repent and believe the gospel that you read to us earlier christ died for your sins in accordance with the scriptures

So he's buried he's raised on the third day in accordance with scriptures. He paid that penalty in full 100

He said it is finished to tell again. You don't even stop talking. Yeah, I just tell us die

Anthony is He's doing you're telling them this is exactly how people could see that he lost

Let me read this first I'm gonna hand you over to sing for the destruction of the flesh

You don't have that power He said hand such a one over that is not what that verse means you do not have the power to hand some

This is the fornicating I'm just gonna i'm gonna mute him. So at least we could we could You know, so we could finish this sentence.

So here's here's what the verse that I want him to to listen to Okay, he he can't he can't uh

So here's the thing Okay He's he's can't handle this one verse that we haven't even gotten to yet as first john chapter 8 9

If we say that we have no sin We deceive ourselves.

What is it? He's saying he has no sin. What does the scripture say? He deceived himself and the truth is not in rodney.

That's what the verse says He said he has no sin He deceives himself the truth is not in him if we confess our sins

He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness if we say we have not sinned we

Make him a liar And his word is not in us and that's see you see he's he's

You know, he's walked away Scripture condemns him. Yeah of course some of those perfectionists have a way around that passage, too, they try to play with the verb tenses there, but um,

But but yeah, I mean it's plain as day what that passage says so so You could see he's he stopped listening.

He's he's done. He wasn't listening the whole time. So I mean honestly I feel bad for him because this is the gospel.

Yeah, so I I went longer. I knew um I knew that that because I knew some of the the how he's been giving uh, our friend brian a hard time um

That I I wanted to give the time but folks here's the thing we want to end with and this is obviously a longer show

Um for the podcast i'll probably break this up But here's the thing that I want you guys to see

I wanted you to see how these people argue How what happens? Do you did you see how he when he couldn't sit there and Look at scripture without bouncing all around it stops them in their tracks

Why? because He cannot Look at scripture in its context

That is an error Anytime you have someone that must proof text to make their point.

They have to jump all over the place They can't stay with the content They make arguments and and really where did it fall apart it fell apart in one point

He brought up a passage in james And he said that the word if meant

That there was a clause but he doesn't understand that as first corinthians 15. Where was it? First corinthians 15 what

I say you said james. Oh, okay. He did james too Regarding the same thing we deal with all the time and then the first corinthians 15 was the word if for the cause, okay

Sorry, so On that. Thank you for the correction. Oh, you're welcome Oh, wait. Oh anthony.

Do you notice what you just did? You corrected a brother. He says you don't do that Oh, he says you you can't do that and you just did.

Oh, well, I just didn't lose my salvation according to him No, I guess I well, I guess that means that you you are saved because he said that was the proof

Oh, so then you're not yeah Whatever. I don't know. I don't get it

What you folks saw was that it got ramped up when he couldn't answer something

Because he's trying to make an argument from english and he he has to have it in the english

And yet the greek has different clauses and different ways of examining that and he wanted to ignore it

Why? Because he said he studied it out. Did he know? You must

If you're going to get to Any clausal statements in the greek you must know which of the four types it is

All right If you're going to make your whole argument based on that And that's what he did

When he realized that he didn't know what he was talking about. What did he want to do? He started ramping up where he just kept trying to talk over us.

We couldn't get a word in He started jumping all over the place Because he couldn't make his argument now

I hope that you guys noticed Now there was points where anthony and I were trying to talk over each other a bit because We're both trying to explain to him different different points of view um

The point that I want you guys to see because this is what I want you to recognize Apologetics live is a show where we want you to learn how to do apologetics

Not just watch people do it. But did you notice how I kept trying to stay to one passage

Read the one pass what happened in james? He ended up having to realize this is not talking about how you get regenerate but talking about sanctification

He admitted it and then when later on he realized what he admitted to it was like no He just bailed from that, right?

This is how you you work with these people What did it mean when anthony brought up that he was the finisher of our faith in philippians?

It means that god does the work Just like god saved us He keeps us saved.

He's the one that finishes it What ends up happening with that you end up seeing that he had to suddenly change the gospel message, didn't he?

He went from telling anthony at one point that the gospel is to believe on jesus that it's about what jesus does

To that it's about us Believing it's about us having to work with god

That is a different gospel message He didn't like the fact that anthony pointed out that his gospel message is the same as the roman catholic church

But what's the difference the roman catholic church you get saved by faith plus works that you choose god

And that then you maintain that by works, what is he preaching? He's preaching that god does does some of the work but god ultimately needs you

To regenerate you and then you maintain that by what your works. What's the difference? Essentially none nothing

And and this is why you end up seeing a guy like this And the reason he's giving a guy like our friend brian such a hard time and you saw i'm trying to do it here

It is because an individual like this what you saw was a person filled with pride

He he wasn't here to learn He's here to correct everyone now Why do I say that because you saw it once he had no way of answering what the scripture said

What did he start doing? You are calvinist. You're a lutheran which by the way lutherans Well rob dropped out of here.

We could have asked him if calvinists and lutherans are the same. They're not um, but What did you see?

You worship calvin You know, you follow john mcarthur and anthony are like we didn't mention any of them.

What did we mention scripture? And what did we do with the scripture? We wanted to look at the scripture in its context.

What was he doing? As anthony said he's talking over us trying to not let us be heard

He didn't want anthony to be heard at all there He's he's having to use logical fallacies like ad hominem attacks red herrings and I was trying to point those out

So you guys pick up on them because what he's doing each one of these things Is that he was?

Going out of his way to try to argue illogically Pulling things out of context slamming him with other verses out of context

He doesn't want to take the time to examine each of the passages in its context This is difficult to work with people like this because it takes time

And eventually once they realize scripture doesn't agree with them. They don't repent and follow scripture

They start calling you names Condemning you saying they're going to give you over to satan now notice the change

He said that he knew what anthony and I believed before we came in So knowing that think through this

Knowing that he said we were brothers That we are doing good works for god

And now he's handing us over to satan Did his understanding of our view change?

From before he came in no He said he knew it and we know he knew it because we've dealt with them or at least i've dealt with them before So he knew what we believe so the simple question

Did rodney lie when he said we were believers and we're doing good works for god?

If he did He just lost his salvation in his worldview In our worldview as anthony said because he has a different gospel

He was never saved It's not that he believed that we what we believed and and then got enlightened

It's that he was exactly what's spoken of in the passage He's someone who believed in the gospel because he was with us, but he wasn't regenerate and he

Left us for a gospel. That's a different message and so What you end up with is when you have a different gospel

It is the passage that anthony tried to read to him out of galatians And he didn't want to hear it

Because he didn't want to hear what scripture said Notice what we were doing A lot of what anthony and I were doing with him was reading scripture.

What was he doing talking over that? Why would he talk over that? Because he doesn't like what the scripture says

That's how you know now Um, even though anthony broke broke you want to say something more on this?

Yes, I what I am reading babylon b right now, and i'm wondering if we should do this for rondy

It says that uh, joel osteen tests negative for christianity Ha ha Well Lonely, so he must have those tests

He tests positive for roman catholicism though. Yeah. Yeah, it was scary how similar he was to roman catholics

So here's the thing next next week. We're going to have a debate a different kind of debate like a timed debate um so, uh, and I got to pull up the title that the topic that we had um

I wondered if he's actually on a show honestly. Yeah, so The two people debating is going to be uh, dr.

Anthony silvestro and patrick dennis um The topic of debate is going to be

If I can find it, I should have had this up um Okay, the topic is is evolution scientifically possible

Um, and it will be the full show so we're not going to take guests next week Uh, it will be a full formal debate on is is evolution scientifically possible?

so you're going to want to tune in for that and then I don't I don't know if rodney is going to come back the week after but um, we'll see so um with that what

I want to do is um I'm, just gonna we're gonna close out by playing some.

Um Playing some ads for There's two shows that we are mentioning today with the guys that came in.

So we hope that you check out next week We'll be back with a formal debate for you

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