Should Christians Counsel Gays to Straighten Up and Marry a Member of The Opposite Sex?

Warning the following message may be offensive to some audiences these audiences may include but are not limited to professing Christians who never read their

Bible sissies sodomites men with man buns those who approve of men with man buns man bun enablers white nights for men with man buns Homemakers who have finished

Netflix, but don't know how to meal plan and people who refer to their pets as fur babies Your discretion is advised of heaven

The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of Almighty God is

Hanging over our head. They will hear his words They will not act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment when the fires of wrath come

They will be consumed and they will perish God wrapped himself in flesh

Condescended and became a man died on the cross for sin was resurrected on the third day

Has ascended to the right hand of the father where he sits now to make intercession for us

Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words They will act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day their house will stand

Welcome to Bible bash where we aim to equip the Saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions

You're not allowed to ask We're your host Harrison Kerrig and pastor Tim mullet and today we seek to answer the age -old question

Should Christians counsel gays to straighten up and marry a member of the opposite sex?

So we're doing this particular episode Because I don't know if any of you guys listening.

I've heard this but there's actually been a bill passed recently Up in our country to the north

Canada. They passed a bill recently that's focused a lot around Homosexuality and how people can interact with with homosexuals.

And so Tim, could you just kind of explain? for a moment what exactly this bill is what it means what's going on with it and and What it will mean for Christian the

Christian Church and the upcoming near future Yes, sure.

So this bill c4 bill that was passed in Canada It was it was essentially passed unanimously and it's a bill that essentially is criminalizing any attempt to change a homosexuals quote unquote

Orientation so it's a bill that basically criminalizes any attempt to do so in a way.

That's pretty thoughtless. I mean, I think there's You know

Attempts psychological attempts to change there has been historically attempts to change a person's orientation as far as that goes

Through you know electroshock shock therapy and crazy things along those lines so there's plenty of psychological attempts to do to do that that Do are cruel in certain ways and unhelpful and ineffective to actually deal with the problems

But basically any attempt to do so Whether it's through Christian counseling And this is not even criminalizing unlike an unwilling person like a person who is being forced, you know to change

Orientation against their will this this is outlawing in like basically any help that you might provide Anyone who comes to you asking you for help in dealing with this in any kind of context?

and so it's a pretty sloppy bill, but this is this is something that's been happening for a while now and Just to say a few comments about it as it relates to the

Christian world in general it seems like you know big evangelicalism the

Christian world has basically been you know adopted all the

Secular assumptions as far as this goes and so there's a lot that we could talk about along these lines But for a while now all the you know main

Individuals who were speaking to the issue of reparative therapy or gay conversion Therapy as far as that goes most of those have been

X gays or lesbians So I'm thinking in particular of Rosario Butterfield or Jackie Hill Perry or Sam Albury Those are individuals who are being promoted and you know any kind of They would label in one way or the another an attempt to change a person's orientation as Basically a heresy so they talk about the heresy of reparative therapy or conversion therapy

And so the evangelical world and the Christian world are the evangelical world and the secular world are all kind of united in this quest to either outlaw gay conversion therapy or label it a heresy or Speak against it in the strongest terms possible and I would say that You know it seems that Europe and Canada are one you know stage further than we are in in basically all these issues

And so if Christians don't Unite and take a stand and repent of the errors that we need to repent of it

It seems safe to assume that you know this is where we're headed Now I think there are some signs of life in America that basically there is some pushback over here that may

Or may not prove to be effective. There's plenty of people. You know soccer moms now storming the gates

Critical theory This is leading the way you know how sad sad as that is

That's where the resistance is coming from but there is some resistance here and I am hopeful that perhaps our nation will wake up and And would not go the way of Canada or Europe, but these things are distressing for sure mm -hmm

Yeah, so the bill the bill is basically you know the It's labeled as a bill that is meant to outlaw

Conversion therapy, but then the problem is if you read this bill the definitions are so vague that really what it effectively is a tool that could be used to outlaw really any kind of Push back against homosexuality is that that's right

Yeah, I mean even even at the sermon level or something like that You know any any attempt in any way to basically speak to a biblical position on sexual immorality is going to be

Lumped in under the same kind of category and so effectively what's what's going to happen is now in Canada you have a legitimate

Bill put forth by the government that nobody opposed in terms of you know the politicians who are given a vote

To this thing no no one no one opposed it and so now what's going to happen is you're going to have

You're essentially what you're doing is you're outlawing the Bible is that fair to say yeah?

I mean particularly as it relates to that one subject sure as is You know now labeled illegal to speak on that and so you had a lot of a lot of Canadian pastors who were reaching out to American pastors essentially asking everyone on the 16th, which is next

Sunday to basically to preach a sermon on the

Bible's position on a homosexual orientation and the biblical admonition to change as far as that goes and so Basically you have some influential pastors down there

James Coates. I think Joe boot dr. Joe boot who were and and others who are basically

Encouraged basically going to defy that law the sentence the Sunday after its past or goes in Goes into effect essentially and then a lot of American pastors are asked to join in on that just to basically support them on what they're doing and then also basically to Start establish a precedent of resistance even here before it happens to go that way assuming that it may

Which seems likely it will but unless the Lord's at work Yeah, it's definitely

This is a very concerning You know event that's going on right now and and it's not really

Surprising if you've been paying attention to the way everything's been going in the Western world the last

For I mean, I guess for me the last two years or so, but really probably much longer than that but essentially this is our

We wanted to do this episode To To be a part of that, you know speak out in the way that we can against homosexuality knowing

What the Bible has to say about it in light of this bill, which is essentially

You know banning the Bible's view on You know the family on Sex, you know all all of these things that are really kind of Foundational to pretty much everything

Every aspect of life, you know, I mean the family is foundational to these things and so this is our this was this is our

Effort to you know be a part of that and speak out against it So we have a lot of questions to go through and I don't

I don't know that we'll make it through all of them But I really want to get through a lot of these because I think that they'll be really helpful for people.

So I guess You know where we'll start first is simply just to ask obviously

There are a lot of people who disagree with us when it comes to homosexuality when it comes to same -sex attraction

They really don't even understand why we so staunchly Disagree with them and why we won't just go away on this topic or at least some

Christians won't I think some have already, you know, they've already given up on this stance, but Thankfully, there's still there's still some who refuse to move from this but Tim could you just start out by explaining to us?

Why exactly is this such an important topic? Why I mean essentially a lot of people are just gonna say hey look

Love is love right? Why are you against? This type of love just because it's not the way that you love someone

So Tim, I guess could you just start there and explain for our listeners why exactly it is that we refuse to that we refuse to say that that this is just another innocent form of Love that's just different From the way that you and I would

Yeah, are you asking? related to homosexual love in general or you asking related to You know homosexual in quote -unquote love in general you're talking about Reparative therapy in general why we would push back you're talking about Like a homosexual orientation, which where do you wanna?

Yeah, I guess I guess let's just start just push back on Go ahead. I guess let's just start with homosexual love in general and and kind of work our way to the

The reparative therapy aspect of it because I do have some questions related to that But it might be nice to have a bit of this of this background to kind of build on Yeah, sure, so the the world's definition of love is is certainly what we've described in different podcasts is

Universal positive regards so the world demands that basically in order to love someone you praise them no matter what they do, right?

So you have to you have to tell them they're wonderful You have to tell them they're special and then you basically just have to give them what they want, right?

so Related to the fast -shaming episode that we did Love in that one was very loving.

They're very loving it for sure But love, you know, so love in the way that the world understands it is given the 600 -pound person

You know as many pizzas as they want It's basically giving the person what they want, but then you know, if you think about love from a biblical worldview there's obviously things that a person can engage in which are harmful for them and that Don't need to be praised if as far as that goes and so a biblical definition of love is not just going to mindlessly praise whatever a person happens to choose in terms of their actions their attitudes or identity or whatever else a

Biblical view of love is going to be informed by what is helpful to that individual right, so There are things that we can praise and there are things that we can't praise and there are things that we should support and the things that we can't support and Homosexual love if as far as that goes is an example of something that the

Bible speaks of as a sin and everything the Bible describes as a sin are destructive to in one way or another and You know whether or not you realize all the ways in which

Advice in the scriptures is destructive. It is Relevant God smarter than us.

He knows better than us how he's made the world and You know homosexual love as far as that goes an attempt to find some sort of companionship between members of the same you know ultimate intimate companionship among Members of the same sex it's a fruitless enterprise

And I mean that literally is fruitless meaning you know if you engage in that you're opening yourself up to certain forms of disease you're rejecting the

Purpose for which God made you I got to create a man He put him in a garden. He says be fruitful multiply fill the earth and subdue it

You can't you know fill the earth full of people If you engage in a same -sex relate

Relationship, it's not productive as far as that goes It's it leads you to feed your selfishness in certain ways and so God's designed marriage to be

An intimate form of companionship that puts two different types of creatures Together a man and female in order to help them to grow and to be sanctified and to be less selfish and so Same -sex relationships fundamentally feed selfishness.

It doesn't push you in the ways that they should push you There's destructive and societal consequences to this sort of thing it is a perversion in the language of Scripture and And it's something that we shouldn't praise and so So those are just some short answers to the question of why?

Christian might push back against the idea of homosexual love Okay, well,

I think you know, that's that's a helpful Response in terms of why is this such an important topic that we need to constantly?

You know Bring it up and explain why homosexuality is wrong and why we can't just Go away on this topic why we can't just you know

Be Silent and and let people just do whatever they want unchecked when it comes to homosexuality

So in light of this Now now kind of going back to the reparative therapy the conversion therapy bill and up in Canada, obviously this bill is

Essentially outlawing any kind of pushback against homosexuality.

That's how vague The definition of Conversion therapy is in the bill.

So, you know, I guess now kind of Kind of answer the the same question, but with conversion therapy, you know, like it well

Maybe not the same question, but more just ask Your answer the answer the question.

Why is it? that Christians not only have to think that homosexuality is wrong that homosexuality is evil

But they have to constantly keep telling everyone it's wrong Even when the majority of society at this point

You know accepts homosexuality for what it is and and isn't really

Gonna push back against it. Why is it that Christians have to keep? Essentially, you know opening our big fat mouths and saying hey you shouldn't do this.

You shouldn't do this. You shouldn't do this You need to turn away from this why exactly is that so crucial for us

Yeah, so, you know part of the discussion is related to What you know, what are

Christians actually pushing back on? So there's plenty of discussion and debate on that very point.

So are we Pushing back on the act of you know Sodomy itself or the act of gay marriage itself, or are we pushing back on the idea of a gay orientation?

What did you have in mind for this line of thinking? Are you talking about just why are we pushing back on?

The actions itself like gay marriage or you know sodomy or those kind of things are we pushing back on the orientation?

I'm trying to change the orientation. What do you have in mind? Really both. I think it's both

Yeah, well Yeah, so Obviously so one of the things we talked about before is there's the issue of love and that's involved

So you have a certain definition of love that is being redefined So I think most people understand and are very aware that there are practices which are harmful to individuals

So related to a subject like pedophilia We still live in a world which strangely

Thinks that pedophilia is wrong And I say that it's strange because we've like adopted every other form of sexual immorality as if it's normative

But still we're holding on to pedophilia as being abnormal, but then you know attempts to Try to change a person's you know orientation towards pedophilia

We we haven't gotten to a point to where? That's considered to be criminal or a crime or anything else and so that's strangely put in some other category

But then if you could think about that subject for it for for a minute, you would realize that Hey, it wouldn't it be better for kids?

Who are being abused by Perverts wouldn't it be better for them to to try to criminalize or outlaw or push back against pedophilia?

Well sure, you know related to bestiality wouldn't it be better to try for the animals? you know since we love animals so much wouldn't be better for the animals to try to push back against the idea of Bestiality to some degree because you know an animal can't consent and all that and we have to protect the animals

And so wouldn't that be better to try to do that? Well, we know that it would but then with the idea of homosexuality because it's consenting adults this idea of consent being can you know?

Having adults consent to a particular act that's you know considered that the the linchpin of the more arrangement

But we don't think we don't have any thought about all the destructive Things that actually come from that.

So so part of it, you know, if you're thinking about it on a practical level there are There is actual harm that comes from homosexual relationships

There is actual harm Tangible harm that we could talk about a great link

But I think the more fundamental issue is that God has made man. He's created him with a purpose and That purpose needs to be fulfilled.

And so God is the primary one who is sinned against when it comes to the issue of sodomy.

I can or homosexuality God's the primary one who is sinned against and his is his world and we are his creatures and he has made us and And if we're

Christians, we ought we ought to be advocating for his purposes and advocating for his glory Seeking his honor and following his rules.

And so he's the one we're primarily concerned about not people and so it's you know God's made us and he's described the church as responsible to be salt and light in the midst of a fallen world and so that's part of our responsibility in this world is to to be an agent of Preservation in the midst of a fallen world and if we you know

If we don't want to engage in that battle, then you know, we we essentially are going to be

Unfaithful to his purposes and you know and typically as the church goes society goes and so The more that we you know refuse to push back against these things the more, you know

I don't not only societal consequences. You'll see but the more judgment of God that you'll See that we actually experience and so, you know as you read through Romans 1 you see that when

God gives a society over to homosexuality Not only are there human consequences that come from that deviant form of sexual immorality

That are many. I mean there are many consequences that come from that but also God's active judgment is going to be well,

God's active judgment is visited in itself on a society engaging in those kind of behaviors and attitudes and actions, but then

Then you know eventually when he's had enough and the iniquity of a society is complete God will come in judgment against that society too, so there's

I guess there's there's a lot of reasons why we have to Clearly and faithfully and forcefully and speak against these things

But not only that I mean if you love people, you know The Bible says that neither fornicators and idolaters nor effeminate or homosexuals will inherit the kingdom of God I mean if you love people, this is the kind of thing that God Categorically puts in the same category as you know fornicators idolaters effeminate homosexual murderers thieves

You know these these are things that if Engaged in an unrepentant way will bar people from entrance into God's kingdom at the end you mentioned

In your response you mentioned essentially By neglecting to speak out against homosexuality and condemn it what will happen is

Essentially society will suffer for a few different reasons and You know, whether it be

God's judgment or just the inherent evilness of homosexuality much, you know much like if You know if no one ever spoke out against murder and then everyone just started murdering

Obviously that society with no punishment, you know for the murder Then obviously that society is is going to suffer and homosex homosexuality is no different But I but I have seen a lot of people essentially

You know come back and say well, hey, you know what I've actually seen more harm caused

By Christians trying to you know, tell gay people to stop being so gay

I've seen more harm come from that than good and and more specifically, you know

I think a lot of the common kind of experiences that that most people are probably immediately thinking of when

I say something like that is like hey, I can think of the you know gay person who they grew up in church and and they knew that Homosexuality was wrong and they knew that they shouldn't feel the way that they feel but then they still feel that way and they said

They say they want to stop being attracted to the same sex But then they just can't stop and so they start struggling with these ideas you know, they start feeling depressed and they start feeling worthless and you know, all of these negative emotions and and I've seen plenty of people push back with that idea saying hey

Well, you know what if if it's so helpful, then why aren't all these people, you know

Why aren't all these people glad to flee from homosexuality? Why does it seem like they're always?

being hurt so so and Answering that question, could you just kind of Explain to us

I guess first. Why is it that it seems like there's so many people Who when confronted with the idea that homosexuality is evil they they're just met with essentially disappointment, even if they

Might you know, there's an aspect of them that might even agree that maybe it's not that good or they at least acknowledge

Hey, God doesn't think it's good Yeah, sure. So yeah along those lines

Basically why part of why that, you know Canada is criminalizing this sort of thing is because there's this narrative that's a formed essentially that any you know attempt to Try to change a person's orientation as far as that goes if there is such a thing as a homosexual

Identity or orientation in the way that's being described any attempt to change that Will inevitably lead, you know the person to commit suicide or something like that and there's been all the you know, the homosexuals who commit suicide or the

Transgenders who commit suicide because they are basically shamed for being who the who they are essentially in terms of their identity and Then that shaming basically leads them to despair and leads them to you know

This false kind of guilt which is going to inevitably lead them to suicide Is that kind of what you have in mind?

Yeah. Yeah Yeah, so that kind of narrative is is I think it's a very naive understanding of reality in general and it doesn't really deal with Some of the things that the

Bible speaks to so in terms of the way the scriptures work God's moral law is written on our heart And the

Holy Spirit sent into the world to convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment And so this is the kind of world I mean God made the kind of world that he made and the kind of world that he made is the kind of world

To where his laws you can you can violate them But then if you violate his his laws, you're only going to be led to heartache and pain and suffering

And so one of the things the Bible says is the way of the transgressor is hard Meaning, you know, there's a there's a way that seems right under man

But in the end it leads to death if you reject God's laws that you reject God's standards There's a problem of guilt that's associated with it.

So just you know, take a different kind of analogy So take the analogy of murder or something like that I'm sure that you've watched plenty of movie where the you know, the person commits the murder and then you know, basically they spend the rest of their life kind of destabilized after that and filled with guilt and filled with shame and filled with condemnation and constantly looking over their shoulder and Constantly wondering when the police are gonna come get them.

You can imagine that kind of scenario You see it in you know books or movies or everything else You can imagine that kind of scenario now

God gives a law that says hey don't murder, right? And there are consequences to that kind of thing now you reject that law you can reject it all day long and say hey

Well murder was justified in my case and you know, God will forgive me and whatever else or you know Who is he to tell me, you know, if he knew what

I went through and you know You can do all that But then because the world is the world that he made when you do that you are going to experience the consequences that come from that and one of the

Consequences that come from that is the consequence of guilt and shame and condemnation if that makes sense and so when when you're related to the idea of sodomy and you relate you relate that to the idea of sodomy you relate that To the idea of transgenderism you relate that to these sexual identities and orientations that are seek

Seeking to be praised in society in general. One of the problems is that if you If you tried like you have a you know a different morality that's that operation within the world and within the church and one of the things that To realize is that there used to be social stigmas and pressures against certain forms of deviant sexual behavior that were

You know You they were largely preventative medicine as far as that goes

They were you know, they might have been executed at times in a bit of a cruel way. I Mean, I remember growing up.

There was a you know game that You know would be blasphemous to play now but in the spirit of the queer game essentially or something like that and so when people

When people when people think about you know trying to repair a gay person's identity

That's the kind of example that comes to mind as you know You're just you know a bully picking on the poor person who is born this way and can't do anything about it and what you need to do is triumphantly affirm your identity and Part of what's happening in movies and societies and in general is that in every movie and every

TV show you know the gay person is always the best -dressed and always the the most intelligent and you know everything else always the most witty and And so our society is actively trying to praise this vice, but then the problem is there's consequences to that kind of thing

And it's not a path that ultimately is gonna lead to anything good And the problem is that there's guilt and there's shame that comes with it and When you engage in high -handed rebellion against God the problem is you're gonna feel guilt and you're gonna feel shame and you're gonna feel

Condemnation and no amount of looking in the mirror and saying hey, you're wonderful and you're special Is gonna help you to deal with that fundamental reality and that's why you know gays and transgenders and you know, you know all that That's why they commit higher levels of suicide and it's not because you know people are

Messing with them or whatever else on some sort of broad scale, although I would say that you know the fact that There might be

Society that's still pushing back against that at all in whatever way is Better than being in the society that universally praises it because it is a destructive lifestyle that it is gonna lead to guilt and shame and Condemnation and there's moral things that are happening in these kind of scenarios that the world is unaware of and there's

I mean There's no way that you can Pursue rebellion against God and not you know

Be fundamentally destabilized Fundamentally hopeless and given in to despair

And everything else and you can pursue iniquity with everything that you have and all you're gonna get is pain and suffering and heartache

And you know, that's what happens when the transgender person changes their gender. They think oh man, I'm a you know, I'm a man trapped in I'm really a man who's trapped in a woman's body and if I just changed my body

You know, that'll be the answer and then you know surprise, you know wonder of wonders They end up wanting to commit suicide after they get the surgery because they realize that they fundamentally, you know, just mutilated themself

And it didn't fix the fundamental problems and now they've they've you know Marred the image of God in them to such a degree that you know

They're never you can't go back from it and it doesn't help and you can look at that in some simplistic way and say oh

Well, that's because society is shaming this person and and it's just the wrong conclusion The conclusion is you're living in God's world and what he says goes and when you rebel in a high -handed way like that there is guilt and shame and condemnation that ultimately is going to lead you to despair and Have no hope left and that's what that's the fruit of it.

That's the bitter fruit of it So, why is it then

I've seen I've seen people, you know primarily online

So take that for you know, take that with a grain of salt, I guess but I've seen plenty of people online who

Essentially say we actually read an article both you and I this week where a guy who was claiming to be homosexual and Christian Which we know unrepentantly homosexual

And and we know you and I know that those two Things they uh, they kind of contradict each other and But anyways, we were we were reading this article from this guy

I've forgotten his name now but he essentially said was saying

You know, hey, look, I realized that when I was younger, you know,

I grew up and I think of Either a Baptist or a Southern Baptist Church, I realized that the

Bible said that homosexuality was wrong I knew what I was feeling what

I was desiring In terms of who I was attracted to was wrong, and I didn't

I didn't want To be attracted to the same sex.

I didn't want to be attracted to men when I was a man and And I feel like I've I've seen

I've seen people Say that they feel this way where essentially hey, I get it's wrong. I don't want to do it

I don't want to be attracted to a man Why can't I stop? I?

Keep trying. I keep trying to You know not be gay

But it just doesn't seem like I can stop and then eventually a lot of them either Come to the conclusion that well, it must not be that bad if I can't stop or You know, well

God's not real then Because they keep saying this is wrong. If it were wrong, I should be able to stop but I can't stop.

So why is it that people when confronted with the reality that they need to They need to you know

If you're a man be attracted to a woman and a woman be attracted to a man when they're confronted with that idea

They they just say it seems like so many of them just can't even Get there

Could you could you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, well that thing that you're describing that You know the reality that there are people who want to you know

Quit being gay or want to quit, you know being attractive to members of the same sex and are having little to no success in changing that those fundamental set of desires or that orientation or that Those poles and they can't seem to bring themselves to be attracted to members of the opposite sex.

That's I mean, that's a reality that That there's plenty of stories that go along those lines and I don't have some vested interest in saying that That's never happened or they're just lying about it or whatever else but that that's the kind of thing that Essentially has led

You know individuals like Rosario Butterfield Sam Arbery Jackie Hill Perry essentially to describe an expectation on the part of the church that an individual does change that or some sort of teaching that basically says that the gospel has

Provided a solution to that they would describe that as a form of heresy Essentially because they're looking at a person like that.

They know people like that They've interacted with people like that who seem to have a little to no success and then you know

They describe it in kind of a dismissive way is attempting to pray the gay away or something like that, right?

And so there's people there's obviously people in that category, but then the question is well why that's your question essentially, right?

Yeah, or what do you do with that? What do you do with that sort of information? Or how do you respond to that sort of information?

How can you encourage essentially? How can you encourage people to try to? Yeah It is does the

Bible tell us to try to encourage them to fix that or is that part of who they are or is That you know, what how do we deal with that kind of reality, right?

Yeah, and I would just say that you know Reality is that in general I would say the church really hasn't taught on sanctification in general

And and and so just you know broadening the topic out And most of what you get a standard church is gonna be you know

Either the self -help crap that you're gonna get and you know You're big like mega churches Church for the unchurch

Andy Stanley type of churches. You get all the self -help crap You're gonna get a watered -down, you know gospel like you you know

At churches that are attempted to be faithful often They really provide very little practical help as it relates to how to be sanctified in general

And there's plenty of movements out there that basically just you know The church what happens on Sunday is it's basically an evangelistic event where you get 52 ways to be saved

Every year and very little to no help on how to be sanctified And so I'm not surprised that that for many people they really don't have the people who are talking about this

They really don't have they have very little understanding of how to even pursue sanctification and so Then when you talk about hey trying to change a homosexual orientation or something like that To them that's reduced and this is always a tag or this always a tell like if you want to poke or tell

To someone who really has a very stunted view of sanctification and doesn't know how to any very little about sanctification

When they talk about the subject and they say they they reduce that to attempting to pray the gay away or something like that That basically tells you that they don't have any understanding of sanctification and how it works and how you should you know deal with any any kind of Deviant sec any kind of deviant sin that you're committed

So I would say that there's some sort of dynamic like that that and I'm sure there's many many people who you know

Have prayed, you know, Lord, please take it away. Lord. Please take it away. Lord Please take it away and he doesn't even take away and so then they conclude in despair well,

I guess this is just who I am and I'm stuck with it and I'm tired of you know asking

God to do something that he doesn't seem to do but then the Bible does teach us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling because it's

God who's that will work at Work to willing to do inside of us. And so there is part of the

Christian life that involves effort involves work involves We're in the Bible talks about resisting the devil resist the devil and he'll flee from you

Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. The Bible tells us to put to death. What's earthly in us, you know

The these evil desires sexual immorality all these things so you're supposed to put these to death

You're supposed to you know, rend your heart not your garment There's I think the church really has a passive view of sanctification as it relates to many topics

And so we really I mean, I would say that change is rare for the church in general

I mean if you just think about your experience and think about people the vast majority of people they are who they are and you know, this happens in marriage this happens in You know related to scandalous sins like sodomy

This this I mean this is you know, the sad truth is that people generally tend to be who they are

Christian in name Chris. I mean whether you're talking about professing Christians or not I mean people don't seem to change or you know

There's been plenty of people who have gotten married to a person they've seen their flaws and they had some

Expectation that this person would be dramatically different in the first few weeks of marriage only to find out that they're

You know ten years in and they're committed in the same sentence with the same frequency, you know, or very little noticeable difference over and over and over again and You know at that point just I must have picked the wrong person or anything else

And so I would just say in general sanctify. We have a stunted view of sanctification and we don't you know I would say the church in large we we don't know how to help people to pursue biblical change

As we should and so it doesn't matter what the subject is. But then the problem is here's the problem

You know just because we you know Just because we don't see as much fruit as what we would expect or on the timetable that we would expect that doesn't have anything

That that doesn't say anything about what the Bible tells us to do and God's actual ability to heal us

It may say something about our understanding of how he does that and the means he does that and the methods He does that and how that comes about if as far as that goes

But I would say that the church by and large is is like a person who needs to find a job

This is what this is what the church by and large does just imagine a person who needs to find a job just praying

Lord Give me a job Lord. Give me a job Lord. Give me a job But then he doesn't put any resumes out and he doesn't do any work and he doesn't pursue any employment

He doesn't ask anyone for leads, you know, he doesn't Do any internet searches and just Lord give me a job or give me a job now

Can can God give you the job? Sure. Have I gotten jobs that way? Sure, right?

God can do whatever he wants to do, but you know what, you know, if I look back over my history of the jobs I've found in my life

You know 99 % of those jobs have been through a lot of prayer and a lot of effort and a lot of work a lot of tangible

Actions, it's okay as far as that goes And so I think for many people they have like a let go let

God kind of view of sanctification in general Which basically just you know, I describe as a

Carrie Underwood approach to sanctification That Jesus takes the whip take the wheel approach right, you know going way too fast can't do this on my own

I'm letting go Some sound words from a prophet of this age, you know, you know,

I mean basically that's what it is I mean, and that's what people have they have this passive view of sanctification to where it's just like well

Lord You gotta take away. Oh, it doesn't you know, I've asked him a hundred times to take it away and he hasn't it's like, okay

Well, what are you doing in life? You know, are you are you looking at porn every day on the internet?

You know, is that what you're doing? You're looking at porn every day on the internet and he's not taking away these sires Are you going to the gay nightclubs all the time?

You know, are you watching you know, the gay movies all the time? Like what are you doing with your life, right? Like what what actually are you doing?

Do you have all these intimate gay friendships that you have that are constantly tempting you towards being gay, you know

Are there friendships you need to get rid of are there, you know entertainment that you need to get rid of? Are you reading the

Bible ever? Are you renewing your mind ever? What do you do when you feel these? Are you trying to renew your mind?

Are you trying to renew your thoughts? Are you putting to death evil desires, you know, what like what actually are you doing in the moment?

And so I would be the first person to say yes You know when sin becomes life -dominating there's a bunch of things that you're gonna have to do if you're gonna get rid of this

So yes, you know, it's kind of like the you know, the guy and the girl who are struggling with Sexual immorality people who are marriage, but then they're constantly putting themselves in horrible situations that are tempting to them

Just saying, you know, well Lord, why do you you know, can you please take it away? Please take away the the loss

It's like well, you know what you guys need to like quit laying on the bed You're not helping, you know,

I think where are you where are you guys when you're normally feeling this kind of the basement

All right, maybe don't stay in the basement In the basement with the door locked, you know half -clothed.

It's like a big shock, you know It's like you want victory from that you may want to flee temptation, you know

I mean, there's so many strategies that a person can use to Try to overcome these things the point point though is just to say that yes

If you have some simplistic notion of sanctification that just involves saying God take it all away, you know carry underwood then

Yeah, I get it. You know, you don't experience any success for it. Yeah, it makes sense. Not surprising, you know But I would say that that's you know

We know how that works in other areas of life and we can kind of chuckle at it But then we refuse to apply it with this area

So there are those who Would agree with you

Tim and say yes Homosexuality is wrong in practice

Right there. They would add that caveat to it. In other words sodomy is wrong or yeah

Lesbian sex is wrong or something. Yeah That or maybe even like homosexual kissing is wrong, you know

Yeah that aspect of it is wrong, but then it's not Necessarily wrong to Be gay

Meaning, you know, hey Internally, I'm attracted to the same sex, you know said this person would say

I'm attracted to the same sex But I recognize that You know sodomy is wrong for example and That kind of leads into a conversation about Which might be it might be hard to train, you know, have a whole conversation about this

But maybe we can maybe we can answer the question at least as it relates to homosexuality

There's a lot there's a well, I don't know how large it is, but there's a group of people who would argue that that To act on the temptation

Their their homosexual desires present Would be sin for that person.

Well, it makes God angry. He's not pleased with it at the same time They would say

Hey Just because this person is being tempted internally does not mean they have sinned yet It'll be sin if they act on it

It'll be sin if they go and and allow themselves to be sodomized or sodomized someone else or whatever

But it's not sin for them to they probably wouldn't want to use that word though Yeah, I don't that's mean -sounding.

That's you know, that doesn't sound very nice Harrison, you know, yeah That's a moral word. You know, that's a moral word moral condemnation.

You don't want to go there keep on Excuse me for using the the mean term.

I apologize But anyways, yeah, they they would argue that it's not sin unless the person acts on it or maybe even

I've seen some people Who would even argue? Hey, it's not even a sin to actually be in the homosexual relationship

Yeah, as long as as long as they're celibate, right?

Yeah, so so is there any kind of biblical category for this idea?

Or is this just totally, you know out of left field completely untrue and and what you that that's not coming from the

Bible Okay, like you're not so what you're describing is called the you know, the same -sex attracted same -sex attraction

SSA Christian movement and so there's been a movement within you know broader evangelicalism

Sam Albury Rosario Butterfield to some degree More Sam Albury Jackie Hill Perry are arguing for the same -sex attracted

Christian as a legitimate category now Rosario Pushes against it a little bit, but then she's pretty sloppy with how she does it and is still accepting the basic premise but what what's happened is

Let me answer this in two phases one. I'm gonna tell you how that happened and then two What does the

Bible say about it? Okay. Okay, so so how it's come about is Essentially, this is a you know, this is a problem that the psychologists have created for us in certain ways and you know

Freud in particular and But this is a this is a psychologist problem that people already know what we think about them

Yeah, hopefully it's not gonna listen to the episode but but part of so in the DSM, you know basically homosexuality was you it used to be considered a mental disorder, okay

So Like a mint like a mental disorder So not a physical problem, but you know a problem of thought behavior that we describe in medical language

So it sounds like it's some sort of physical, you know brain problem or something like that. It used to be a mental disorder

It used to be labeled as as such in the DSM So, you know if someone commits murder you say hey, are they clinically insane?

Basically, you're saying they have some sort of mental problem that they can't be held accountable for their actions Homosexuality used to be viewed as that but then a bunch of homosexual activists took

Took over the you know Association American Association for Psychiatrics and all that and so they took that over and then they basically lobbied to have like, you know had a vote and changed it from a mental disorder to So that it's no longer viewed that way now pedophilia is still viewed as a mental disorder in the

DSM But homosexuality that this mental disorder thing was removed but the problem with that though is that being

If you think about step one, it's viewed as a mental disorder, right? All right. So think about that now what that means though, is that?

This is an orientation which a person fundamentally can't help if that makes sense.

They can't help it But then you know, it's has negative stem stigma attached with it.

It's not helpful or whatever else But it's fundamentally an orientation that they can't help. It's something that they can't really be blamed for if that makes sense

It's a mental disorder. It's just essentially we're just matter or complex machine.

It's a mental disorder So when you think about that way Like we have we've viewed it that way for a long time

And now the basic assumptions of psychology are that people, you know are basically who they are If that makes sense, they're basically fixed in terms of their personality

You can you can't really expect much change as far as that goes because people are who they are And so then you know whether or not you're talking about some sort of personality tests that they take or you talk about, you know

Things like that, you know, there's constant, you know You know people have been researching this stuff for years and you know

Is there some sort of gay gene and everything else but because you know We've we used to think it was a mental disorder

You think what people were born this way and like, you know Maybe it's genetic and it's this mental problem and everything else and whatever it is.

It's just this fixed orientation that a person can't Overcome as far as that goes now when you take it out of the mental disorder category now, it's just an alternative lifestyle

Does that make sense? Mm -hmm, but all the assumptions were that it was some sort of fixed part of the personality

And so then there's plenty of people who say hey, you know what? I was always different and I didn't know why and you know

I don't I can't ever remember being attracted to women and whatever else and so then they're your label for all that is well

I was born this way. That's all who I always been and at some point they realize in some, you know Tearful moment that oh,

I must be gay, you know and then once they latched on to that as a You know a label then that's who they are and this this orientation is something that's fixed and movable and can't be changed and everything else and so then you know you enter the same -sex attracted

Christian movement and essentially what's happening is where we've We've sanctified this label, you know, it's just this

Homosexual label, right and I don't even like saying homosexual because it it it basically gives up the game if that makes sense

What do you mean? So even you if you use the term homosexual you are giving up the whole game

You're basically saying that there is a category of individual who like hey, I'm heterosexual.

Who are you? You're homosexual, right? So I'm heterosexual. You're homosexual a second. No, we're both

Human beings and you're a pervert and I'm not So like if we if we use like if we use biblical language you're a pervert at what where did the word pervert come about well the word pervert came about in that basically one of the one of the

Hebrew words for sin is essentially missing you have like missing the mark and then you also have this notion of being crooked or corrupted as far as that goes within Like one of the

Hebrew words for sin And so this idea of what you know, your way is perverted before the Lord your way is crooked it's not straight like that's where like these words came from and so You know now that's become a pejorative and like how dare you and all that but then it came from a biblical worldview

Which says this is this is a perversion of the natural order. It's not just an alternative state

Does that make sense? Mm -hmm. Like it's a perversion. So we're all human beings Who are made to be attracted to members of the opposite sex, but then this is individual who has a way

That is perverted. They've been given over to iniquity to the point now to where their desire, you know

Members of the same sex have been given over to a level of depravity that is uncommon as far as that goes

And that's why they are where there are, you know, and maybe they were introduced to it at a young age by some, you know

Older perverted man, whatever but the point there is just to say in even using the homosexual language.

You're giving up the game you're basically just You're basically

Conceding the point that there is such a thing as a homosexual orientation, which is a fixed immutable part of a person's, you know

Personality or identity that fundamentally is fixed and can't change and so I try to use like words like sodomite or you know

More colorful terms like pervert In order to Keep keep myself from giving away the game as far as that goes.

But anyway, so so So the first part of the question I'm trying to answer is just a question of you know, how did we get here?

Well, we got here essentially because we accepted this idea of a homosexual orientation First was a mental disorder and now it's just an alternative orientation as far as that goes now

You have the church who's come along and basically they they we don't know how to counsel people out of it

Very well, because we don't know how to counsel people out of any sin very well. Mm -hmm. That's the problem So that's the problem.

And so then it's just well, they prayed and didn't go away so, you know, like maybe that's just who they are, but the

Bible clearly speaks against sodomy so And they wouldn't want to use that term because that sounds mean to them, even though it's an accurate

Description like it's a moral category instead of a psychological category So, you know just don't act on it and that's fine.

Now the problem with that though biblically All right, so how did it come about that's the answer in part but then like the problem with that biblically biblically

What does the Bible say is that the Bible says that you know, if a man looks at a woman with less than his heart He's committed with adultery within her and her heart like sins aren't just result like the result of behavior.

Mm -hmm So it's not just enough to fail to keep the behavior and this is the whole point of the sermon on the mount this is the whole point of You know what

Jesus came to do Jesus didn't come to overturn the law but to show all the ways in which people were

Violating the law and their very mind and their very heart and their very affections And so, you know, it's not enough just to not be a murderer if you hate people in your heart, right?

It's the same kind of thing Now you take it a step further further and you actually murder someone then you need you're guilty of a crime

But you know, it's the same kind of thing that's going on. And so what's happening here is These this set this this pull this attraction

Towards members of the same set is viewed as a neutral orientation that a person can't help and that's done for many reasons and so part of it's done because you know, there's a as I said a stunted view of sanctification, but part of why that's happened is because You know people are making some sort of distinction between sin and temptation.

Basically. Hey, you know, it's you know You can't help it. If you're tempted to sin as long as you don't act on it kind of thing.

Does that make sense? But then The problem with this thing at every level is it just it doesn't work with any other sin.

That's the problem it only you know, you're asking us to Suspend All logic and reason and treat one sin in a different way than others if that makes sense

So just like just a few examples of what I mean, I mean Everyone would think everyone still for whatever reason as it relates to pedophilia would think that a person who desires to have sex with children

That desire itself that pull is fundamentally wrong and immoral when you agree.

Mm -hmm. Yeah Everyone would think that everyone would think that now if you want to get on the animal rights bandwagon, you know

Everyone would think that a person who has a desire to you know

Tie an animal down or throw a puppy in a wood chipper or you know torture and experiment take, you know

Hot pokers and stab an animal over and over and over again People everyone would think that not only would it be wrong to act on that That there's something fundamentally wrong with you if you want to act on it, right?

Yeah I mean even Christian I would say even Christians with a biblical view should be horrified by that Those kind of desires they're wrong, you know

It like we we know intuitively with every other category, you know

Let's say that hey, you know, I want to kill you and take your wife, right? Yeah That desire that covetousness is wrong.

That desire is wrong. And that's it's not just it would be great if I don't act on it Please don't act on it.

However the fact that you want to do it is a serious problem, you know, if I if every time

I go to your house, I just want to steal things from you and Take everything that's in your house, and I'm plotting ways to do it

And I'm just spending the whole time saying don't take it. Don't take it. Don't take it I'm sure that it would it's better if I overcome it and resist it.

Yes, but at the same time there's If That's my experience and most people that it's not their experience as they go to their neighbor's house and everything else

And so here's the so the problem is that as you read through the Bible the Bible wants us to you know

Colossians 3 5 put to death what is earthly in you sexual immorality impurity passion? It says evil desires and covetousness, which is idolatry.

It's not enough just to change your behavior you need to change the desires themself that orientation that pull towards iniquity is wrong and it's evidence of Sin in of itself

If that makes sense, yeah So as you know, essentially it's not enough to just say

Yeah, it's wrong to act on it You know if we're gonna take Jesus at his word if we're gonna take what he said seriously on the

Sermon on the Mount then we have to admit that That you know being gay even just even just being tempted, you know with the attraction of someone of the same sex as you is

Sinful Even if you don't act on it, it's it's a sinful desire that you're experiencing that requires forgiveness

From God is that is that kind of a fair summary of everything? That's a fair summary now what people like the way they try to get out of it biblically as they try to say hey well

You know Jesus the Bible says was tempted in every way as we are but without sin so right wasn't

Jesus So essentially if Jesus is tempted in every way that we are yet without sin

Then you know doesn't that mean that he was you know, there's is it a sin to be tempted?

Right, that's that's the pushback. That's so that's where the pushback is coming from. So it's like hey, you know,

I can't help that you're tempted You can't help that you're tempted with evil as long as you don't act on it.

It's fine And and I'm and I'm sure that you've heard plenty of people Say essentially that right you can't help your temptations as long as you fight him, right?

Yeah. Yeah Now the problem with that though, is it that's naive And it's a stunted understanding of how you know

The Bible actually works now With respect to bodily weakness. Jesus was tempted in every way that we are yet without sin meaning

You know, Jesus knows what it's like to be hungry knows what it's like to be thirsty knows what it's like to be

Tired Tired it was like to be sick hurt everything else. He's gone through the whole gamut of human experience

He knows that but that passage is not saying that you know Jesus every time he walked past a little boy wanted to sodomize that little boy and had to turn from it, right?

so the Problem is we're equivocating on what temptation actually means now in the Bible. There's two

Types of temptations that happen. There's what you call external temptations and internal temptations if that makes sense.

Yeah So an external temptation to sin is an offer An offer to sin.

Okay. Mm -hmm. So like, you know Imagine that you're you know driving down the road

In a shady part of town and some gaudy woman, you know with not enough clothes

Who looks like she's addicted to meth or whatever comes up to you and offers you a good time or something like that, right?

Mm -hmm for some money. I'm sure I'm sure that most people would look at that and not feel any kind of pull whatsoever

At least hopefully hopefully hopefully, you know, you have to be pretty low to you want to go there I mean now

I've you know, I've You know, I've lived in the world and you know, I've had plenty of gay guys hit on me before.

Mm -hmm And I know I will tell you they're offering iniquity to me and I know that you've just You described

To me a scenario where a guy you were trying to evangelize

Touched your ear and a suggestion He gave you an offer

As far as that goes, but I mean, I think the standard red -breathed blooded

American Even remotely tempted by that in fact is repulsed by that, right?

Yeah, so like is that were you tempted the question is were you tempted? Well, yes and no, right?

You were tempted meaning you were an external offer was given to you to commit iniquity, you know

I've had gay guys want to be my boyfriend or whatever and give me offers But there's no the problem is like I have an external temptation, but there's no internal temptation

Whatsoever that's happening, right? There's no pole. There's no pole that says oh, yeah, I'm kind of like this try that You know, it's like gross man.

Get out of here, you know, I'm good Don't ever talk to me like that again, or I'll beat you up, you know

I'm threatening assault, you know Don't nobody talk to me like that, you know,

I kind of Oh Man, but no so like there's internal temptations and there's external temptations

So an internal temptation is an external temptation is simply an offer So Jesus says, you know received the whole gamut of external temptations,

I assume, you know So Satan says to Jesus, you know, you're the Son of God You can throw yourself off this temple and because it's written

God will bear you up. Let's you dash. Let's you dash your foot against the stone. He's given an external offer of temptation obviously

And and but then there's no oh man, I'd really like to see if God's gonna take care of me here I kind of want to do that and see what it's like Right.

I'll give you the whole kingdoms of the world if you bow down and worship me. Oh, man I'd really like everything else. Maybe I'll I should bow down.

No like it. There's no internal temptation But there's an external temptation as in the way that described and so that's what's happening within this

SSA kind of movement Which is essentially Saying that people are not only like what's happening is they're equivocating in there, you know

Collapsing all temptation into the same kind of rubric, but then there's two different types of temptation But James tells us that each man is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires

Essentially and so there is an internal temptation a luring and enticement that comes from a sinful heart

He doesn't have a sinful heart Jesus heart wasn't well, you know pulling him to rape women or to engage in homosexual sex or anything else

He didn't have the internal temptation. He had the external but then when you have that internal temptation You have your heart that's pulling you the wicked old man

The wretched old man that you are in the language of Paul that's pulling you towards evil. Yes, you need to resist it

But the fact that it's there is the kind of thing that you say. Hey Lord, we forgive me. I'm so wicked Please forgive me for the wicked desires of my heart and please help me not to act on them

Now is it you know, is it a success if you? If you don't act on it, yes, but it would but what you're trying to get to is where you don't you stop desiring it, right?

So you're not just an innocent person, you know, who's just Satan putting thoughts in your mind that you can't help

It's like no those are coming from your own Sinful wicked heart that makes sense. Yeah, and it kind of leads me into my next question

Which really You know, we already we already talked some about the people who say that they don't want to be attracted to the same sex

Anymore, they think God Says it's wrong. And yet they can't really seem to Overcome it for whatever reason

And you've kind of you've already talked about that But I I wanted to go back to that topic for a second and basically just ask you

You know in light of all of these people who really seem to Not be able to overcome the sin

Even when they realize it's wrong. Is it is it?

Possible to overcome this sin Is it possible to be someone who is attracted to the same sex?

Have someone confront you and say hey This is wrong and you are going to go to hell if you don't repent of this and turn away from it

Is it possible for that person to actually repent from that sin and and have?

You know kind of like a final kind of victory over it where there is no more temptation

For that person and and I'm gonna ask you a second question and and you can kind of just go, you know, answer them back -to -back for me if if Repentance is possible

What exactly does it look like? For that person in practice,

I guess does it does that make sense? Yeah, I think there's numerous examples of people who are

Doing that very thing who have repented of that pole In a pretty fundamental way who refused to identify themselves as being homosexuals or gay

Christians And you know who are not trying to engage in celibate gay lifelong committed covenantal friendships with And who you know ultimately basically repudiate that to the other most get married have kids and Move on with their life and talk about Exactly that I mean the

Bible Explicitly says I mean explicitly says in first Corinthians That do you not know the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom

God this first Corinthians 6 9 Do not be deceived neither the sexually immoral nor the idolaters nor the adulterers nor many practice homosexuality nor thieves nor greedy nor drunkards nor Or bowers nor swindlers or inherit the kingdom

God and it says in verse 11 and such were some of you Such were some of you. Mm -hmm

But you were washed you were sanctified you were justified in the name of Jesus Christ by the Spirit of her God. So there's

And the scripture itself testifies to the transformative power of the gospel that God can take, you know, any take in any individual affected by any sin and Fundamentally clean them up and there's plenty of stories of individuals who have done just that and the problem is that this inch

Essentially once Christian, I mean, you know, I'm thinking of you know professors at Southeastern Theological Seminary who basically were formerly gay and trying to you know, we're basically fired because they were

Trying to teach that the Bible can fundamentally change a person with this set of sin

It's become kind of a heresy, but that's happened in the Christian world and the secular world We have no allowance for those kind of actual conversion stories because we've said that they can't happen

But then, you know, there's plenty of people who have actually happened to it's the problem, right? So there's plenty of people that actually fit that now

I mean, I think part of what's happened though is in your the way you worded it.

There's some Lack of I don't know how to put it there's a

The way you worded you asked is there Does the Bible Anticipate a kind of scenario essentially where a person can

Repent of this in some sort of final way and never again experience internal temptation again

Have like a final kind of victory over it Okay.

All right, I think part of The way that that's framed is it's framed in such a strong way as to maybe give evidence to the other side that Conversion is not conversion therapy is harmful and dangerous and not possible

What I mean by that is to say let's deal with another kind of sin for a second. Okay?

So like let's say that we're gonna talk about a sin like lust

And in more of a heterosexual way, right? Well, is it possible for God to like utterly remove lust from a person's heart

Period, what would you say? Yes Yes now in practice.

Does he seem to do that? No Okay So meaning it's like there's for most people.

It's kind of a longer road, right? Okay, so so think about like the like the person who's engaged in premarital sex or something like that and You know, they want like God just to take the lust away they want

God to just take it away just take it away Just take it away and then you know, they get married They you know have a family but then that's still kind of there to some degree

They you know walk past see some mission see and you know ask God Hey, forgive me for the pole and everything else now do those reoccurrences

Come few and far between for the sanctified Christian. Sure Is it possible to get to a point where it's just like you're absolutely offended by that grossed out.

Absolutely Is that a testimony of many people? Absolutely, but then you know for a lot of people it's kind of it's a thing that They actually struggle with Some people you know, they struggle with it in quotes, but that just means they give in every time

There's some people they actually struggle with it and they're actually gaining some success and it's just something that's worked out over time, right?

Yeah All right. So with the idea of the homosexual temptation, you know, I'm sure

I'm sure That a person who runs down that track for decades of their life.

They run down that track There's the kind of person who at some point in some sort of decisive way says

I hate this I sick of it I can't stand it. And now I'm just grossed and repelled by it.

Never want to go back there again Period right and any time there might be some slight pole that way they're like that is disgusting.

That is gross I never want to go back there. Please forgive me for ever going down that road Period right?

Mm -hmm. And so they're dealing with it at such an early stage to the point to where maybe that like, you know

Little wistful nostalgia kind of comes up every once in a while, but an instantaneously they're attacking it.

It's gone Functionally, it's eradicated. Sure that I think that that's the Bible does

Put that forward as if that is like then an expected thing at the same time

I would say that there's like what's happened though. What's happening and the problem that's happening is that There's any number of people when they feel that slightest pole

They want it to be gone away completely and instead of like engaging in the process of killing it

By, you know rebuking those thoughts rebuking those feelings asking

God's forgiveness and Quickly and decisively what they what they do is every time that's that faint stirring shows up again

It's just evidence to them of the this homosexual orientation. That's fixed. It's immovable.

It's permanent. Does that make sense? And so because they're looking at it that way then anytime that thing surface.

It's just like I this is just who I am It's just who I am. It won't go away. I can't get it to stop. It's like well, look it's who you were, right?

Mm -hmm. Like if you're a Christian, that's who you were and now you have to put to death this thing and you have to pursue sanctification

And you know that thing might periodically come up again, but there's a solution to that in the gospel you rebuke it

That's not who you are anymore. Your identity is fundamentally changed So you don't have to just live out this hopeless script anymore

Just because you fear feel the faintest stirrings of temptations and just go Oh, you know er woe is me and everything else.

Does that make sense? Yeah, so now is it possible to just never ever again feel that sure.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I absolutely but You know anytime you spend 20 years committing, you know running down a particular path

I you know, it's just imagine something like dieting, right? Imagine something like dieting where you know, you just like I would tell you just in that area

Like drinking a regular drink like the thought of drinking like a sugar Drink kind of grosses me out now, right?

Mm -hmm But at first it didn't at first it was like I had to say no But now it's just like I don't want to like that it's like drinking a like I can feel my teeth dissolving.

Yeah, I Mean at a certain point when you you know, you resist the devil will flee from you at a certain point

I mean and that's just a kind of a trivial example, but just think about it I get a certain point at first. It's just like I just need

I just need the fix. I need the caffeine I need the sugar I need it, you know, and then it feels criminal but after a little bit, you know

Flee from you even with something like that. It's just like now it's like hey drinking a you know, a regular straight -up

Mountain Dew It's like it's kind of gross man. I Don't want to get a cavity

Like it it does it's not satisfying. It's just gross, you know, and so I don't even feel really the slightest pole anymore

So I think people can get there with this subject But you know like there's a process typically to get there and it's not some decisive moment for the most part, you know it's a process of Turning away from it and you can't like identify this like pole.

It's just irrefutable evidence that you are who you are If that makes sense. Mm -hmm. All right.

So what was the second aspect of your question? Yeah, so the so the second part of the question was You know more practically.

What exactly does it look like to? You know repent of the sin of same -sex attraction.

What what exactly does that look like? put into practice You know for the person who's wanting to flee from it

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so the first answer the first question is yes a Christian could expect should expect a confident expectation of victory but it's a lot of work and May not happen overnight and it might take some time and you can't

Understand the faintest stirring of temptation to be just irrefutable proof that a failure right?

Mm -hmm and hopelessness But then what do you do? Well, I would say that with any life -dominating sin like any life -dominating sin you need

What in the counseling world we call total restructuring of your life. So So, you know like a person who's snared we'll just talk about drugs for a second person who snared and a lifestyle of drug use

What do you need to do? but In order to get out of that you may need to move right?

Mm -hmm like if you're living in an area where people are just constantly trying to give you drugs and free drugs and You know, you may need to move and you may need to change your friendships if your friends are always, you know

Trying to pull you back and pull you back You might need to delete your not change your number change your phone number if you want to be sanctified

Change your phone number not give it to them Relocate get a new job, right?

So there's behaviors that you have to take so like it's not all about behavior But there's behaviors like you might change your job.

I need to change your friends. You might need to change your phone numbers You might need to change your location if that makes sense, so Bible talks a lot about like the influences of friends in the

Bible and you know Proverbs tells us to be careful about who we who we're friends with and You know, there's the kind of friendships that are only gonna lead you to tempt you right so you want to get done with drug

Use let's talk about drugs. Thank you. You know change. You might need to change your phone You might need to change your location.

You might need to change your job. You might need to change your friends Not only that you so you like there's things that you need to put off like that, right?

Mm -hmm. So you need to flee from temptation Bible says you Resisted that what you flee from him when

Joseph was offered sex from Potiphar's wife. He ran Got out of there So a lot of people are just trying to stay and bear with it and and what they need to be doing is running

So you think about something like that like you need to run you need to flee you need to remove yourself from temptation

You need to radically amputate like so there's things you need to put off that You know big lifestyle change and a lot of times people don't want to do that and they're back in it

They're back in it because they don't want to take the steps. They need to take to actually have the change stick

So you have that but not only that you need to go to church, right? Read your

Bible on a regular basis. You need to pray on a regular basis And so you need to start adopting new habits like now so so you have like behaviors

So you have put off behaviors like that So the same thing is true with sodomy right or lesbianism like the thing is like you you know

If all your friends are gay and lesbians and speaking in that world, you didn't develop new friendships You may need to move you may need to change your phone number

Like all the same things right you may didn't move change your friendships change your phone numbers change your job Like, you know, you can't work at the yeah a gay bar anymore, you know

If you go, I mean, I'm just we laugh about that But the problem is that you know people who are struggling with this kind of things

They don't they don't make those changes and they're constantly being pulled and sucked back into that kind of lifestyle.

Does that make sense? Mm -hmm So you need to put yourself in a good church that kind of church is not going to enable you

It's not going to baby you that's not going to you know Tolerate the sinful psycho set of desires.

So put yourself in a good church Start actively reading the Bible start actively praying

Like as far as that goes and not just Lord take it all away Take it all away actually praying the way the

Bible wants you to pray, you know And I'm not saying don't pray that but just you know There's work that you need to do

So what is a what is a gay person doing? I think they're there's behaviors like that. I've talked about they need to put off There's a lot of mannerisms.

They need to put off So a lot of you know the the effeminate way of communicating the flamboyant dress and Mannerisms like The acting like women they need some man to come along in their life and say hey quit talking like like a queer, right?

Straighten up, you know and in part of that straighten up is like meaning, you know You have the

Jordan Peterson advice of you know, stand up straight with your shoulders back, right? Hey, you need to learn how to walk like a man.

You need to learn how to talk like a man You need to learn how to sound like a man. You need to learn how to act like a man, right?

Mm -hmm. So if you're constantly flagging that you're Effeminate everywhere you go.

Don't be surprised if you get certain offers as far as that goes, right? So there's behaviors that need to change like you need to put off Effeminacy Bible says the effeminate will not inherit the kingdom of God put on masculinity

So there's traits that you need to put on that are not neutral So those are all behaviors right put off behaviors put on behaviors

But then you also have to deal with what's going on in your heart And and so I mean and that involves like identifying the kind of temptations that you're actually feeling

So when you feel tempted towards like sodomy what's happening right there and oftentimes it's boredom for people

So boredom is a trigger so they don't have anything productive to do in their life They have too much time on their hands one of the things that Hitler said in mind comp, which is funny

I Read that just to you know, see what's that because you're bored.

I Wanted to understand You know the mind of you know, one of the most paragons of wickedness a

Paragon of wickedness one of the evil people imaginable, but one of the things that he he one of the things he did with Germany was that he

Basically you have the public education system that he started and one of the main emphasis of that was athletics

There was an emphasis of athletics in that and part of that's because young men have strong sexual desires

And then they don't have and they have a lot They have a lot of energy if that makes sense but they have no healthy outlet for it, but one of the things that he that he found was that if you make men like Tire themselves out in sports and athletics and everything else then a lot of the unwed pregnancies go down Does that make sense yeah

It's so but that's just sanctified I mean that's not sanctified on his part but but like a Christian could look at that and like the

Bible does Talk about whatever your hand finds to do do it with all your might and and you read through the

Proverbs You see there's a lot of temptations that come with being sluggard and lazy And with a person who has way too much time on their hands like they don't have anything productive to do

They're not wearing themselves out and the work that God's given them to do Like then they're open themselves up to temptation and so it's not it's not in the

Bible But you know an idle mind is the devil's playground or whatever idle hands is devil There's some you know there's some truth to that even though that's not a scriptural thing that So anyways,

I mean find something productive to do find something helpful to do In your life as far as that goes You know identify your the temptations that you're having when are they when are they coming from right?

What are the things that what are the triggers? You know then in the moment? You're asking yourself? What do I want right now that I'm not getting what do

I want this late like what is the desire? Here you know and often like sexual temptation even deviant sexual temptation

Is coming from desires that are not necessarily bad right, so I just want companionship

Because I'm effeminate women don't like me anymore and good. You know big shock there

You know men are the only ones who I've trained myself to be attractive to you know a predator

I've trained myself to be attracted to a predatory. You know older man like that Who's going to take advantage of me?

You know but like here's the thing like there's some sort of desire for companionship That's at the root of that that says hey if I don't have companionship if I don't have you know love and some sort

Of form even a deviant form will do I don't have sex then I'm not going to be okay and you know you have to identify the desires there and and submit those desires to God and ask

God to Give you healthy outlets for those desires and everything else and so I you have to renew your mind

You know if they remind yourself of the scriptures no temptations overtaking you, but it was common to man. God's faithful We won't allow you to be tempted beyond your ability

But with that temptation will provide a way of escape that you may bear it But anyways the point here is just so you have to renew your mind and change your behavior and you know exercise the methods of the

Means of grace that God's given you which is church and spiritual friendships and everything else I mean you need a comprehensive solution.

There's no one answer to that That's why I'm giving you a bun, but you need to do a lot of things right There's no one key to sanctification

There's a bunch of them and you got to do a lot You know and the part is that the problem is that someone does like one little thing and everything doesn't change

And it's like well, what's going on. It's like you need Yeah Start somewhere, you know and start making changes and keep on going and keep on going and keep on going

And you know in a few years, you'll be like, how did I ever go there? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Does that make sense? yeah, and No, I think that's a

I think that's a good response and I really only have I mean I have a lot more questions

I could ask but there's there's one more question That I want to ask before we wrap this episode up and Essentially, it's going back to this bill that we opened the episode with so this bill that was passed in Canada That's essentially saying you can no longer

Tell someone to stop being gay, right? and and I think you and I would both agree that essentially what this bill is doing is

Number one, obviously, it's asking us to deny the Bible deny that That the

Bible tells us the truth, right? But then the other thing it's asking us to do is it's actually

And I don't know how many people would come to this conclusion on their own certainly not You know non -christian certainly not unbelievers, they would never come to this conclusion, but by Having Canada ask their or well not ask their citizens tell their citizens you will be punished if you speak out against homosexuality

Essentially what they're doing is they're asking Christians to not love their neighbors anymore, right?

They're asking Christians to Not tell their neighbors the truth that what will happen if they continue to live in unrepentant sin is they will spend eternity in hell

And there's no escape From God's punishment, you know when once you're in hell once he sent you there and So I say all that to ask you, you know,

I I think it seems pretty clear that we Are supposed to tell

Christians. I mean, I'm sorry not tell Christians. We are supposed to Tell people who are who are gay who are attracted to the same sex that they need to stop

But when you add in a bill like this from the government, we know obviously, you know and even if you weren't aware the last two years should have made it aware that there are actually verses in the

Bible that tell Us that we are supposed to obey our government, right?

So When the government starts introducing a bill like this one, that's essentially outlawing speaking out against homosexuality

What what is the Christian supposed to do at that point they're basically given an ultimatum saying hey you either

Obey what the government has said or you or you continue to speak out

Against this thing that you know, God says is wrong So so what is the Christian supposed to do are they supposed to respect what the government is saying kind of like Because of verses like the passage in Romans 13 or are they supposed to ignore these what should the

Christian be doing I think part of what We need to do just related to just picking it

Phrasing you said, you know, it's obviously we should be telling gay people. They need to stop I would just say well,

I think we need to I think if we accept that gay is a thing that That we've lost the argument

And so I think it would be better for us to use if we can and it's very difficult to do so But just use moral categories.

You're not a gay person. You're You're an individual who? Is tempted internally towards, you know?

Sodomy or if you're talking about a man, so you that's not who you are Gay you're a person tempted towards this and who met if you act on it, then you're a sodomite or something like that So you're telling them to quit engage in the behavior and you're telling them to repent of the pole

You know essentially is what you're doing. But then what if the government Romans 13 tells us to?

But you know, what if what if the government says hey, you're not allowed to do that anymore. What do you do? I think you're in here in a clear situation where you know

Peter says we must obey God rather than men if you charge us to Stop, you know

Speaking whatever the Bible tells us to speak a certain point. You just say hey, I'm I'm I'm here and there's a master that's above you and whatever authority you have doesn't extend to the authority

God's given me and God authority God's Given to me is to declare the whole counsel of God and you know honestly, you don't have the authority to tell me that I'm not allowed to Speak what the

Bible says as far as that goes and and I don't really think that that I don't think it's a very complicated Moral calculation as far as that goes like I don't think it's a very this is just a clear example of of a situation where the government has overreached and I think the problem is you're living in a society that You know, it's funny with all the lockdowns and everything else that have happened over the past few years

When I was in seminary and I think we talked about this I mean essentially you have all the pastors for years and years

Who were asked? Hey at what point should you disobey the government? and you know the the time was well, you know if they tell you can't go to church they tell you can't evangelize or Nor if they tell you

I mean all the answer has always even been you know added to that if they tell you you can't Speak against homosexuality or something then you just say

I'm sorry, you know. Mm -hmm. You don't have the authority But then what's gonna happen is if that does happen in America we'll see

You know, we'll see who are the individuals with courage and who aren't and that's maybe where Canada's that we should be praying for them

Because this will reveal the state of the pastors there, you know, what kind of pastors are you the pastors who?

Willing to throw the kind of guys who were willing to get thrown in jail Are you gonna rejoice when you're kind of worthy to suffer for the name of Christ?

Or at the moment that it looks like you may have to suffer you're gonna run With their town between your legs and say it's not loving and you know all that I think you're we're in that we may be in that scenario soon

Hopefully not Lord willing not but if we are then you know, he wouldn't be unjust for putting us in it

But if we are then, you know, we'll know very quickly who's who as far as that goes. Yeah So You know, we spent about an hour and a half talking about this

So hopefully for most people it's probably pretty clear by now, but just in case it's not for some people, you know

What's the answer in terms of should Christians counsel gays to? straighten up And marry a member of the opposite sex

You know, what's your answer to that? I Think what's complicated about that is like the second part of yeah is

And we may not know I almost kind of forgot about the second half Yeah, the second half of that is the thing that we might not have addressed yet And so it's one thing to I think the one that is one thing to say, okay, you know

Straighten up or whatever, right? Now what Rosario Butterfield and Jackie Hill Perry and Sam?

What they find so mortally offensive by the idea of straighten up is they're engaging in a straw man and they're basically saying, you know

Like what you'll hear with these with these into these former, you know former gay people

Who are put forward as experts on the subject now what what you'll hear is like some sort of straw man condemnation of the entire project as if it like Christianity is being reduced in some simplistic way to a message that Heterosexuality is godliness, right?

And so one of the things they'll say over and over and over again ad nauseum is you know Heterosexuality is not godliness is what they'll say.

It's like well Huh Okay, I know what you mean

I know what you mean I know yes, okay There are heterosexual people who are not godly. Sure Sure, yes but you know

Homosexuality is obviously ungodly and what is the kind of sin that will exclude you from you know the kingdom of God so it's kind of like saying, you know, like if you have like we don't yet have the like the reverse word of pedophilia, right but if but if you counsel like pedophiles to quit desiring to rape children or something like that and Someone comes along and says like, you know

Adult philia is not godliness, right? It's like well that's the exercise in missing the point like we're not who said it was, you know, who's saying it was we're just Condemning a sin.

This is sin and telling them to turn from it and flee from it and repent of it Because part of the message of gospel is repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand right repent

Like here's the thing. So we're encouraging them to repent and it does no good to say. Well, yeah well, you know heterosexual people or Sinners to it's like well, obviously.

Yeah. Yeah, but we're gonna tell the heterosexual people or normal people There isn't I mean everyone's you know heterosexual

Like there's no different orientations like that like here's the thing we're gonna tell them to repent of every sin they commit to and all the ones they desire to commit to So and it is godliness to repent of sin, isn't it?

Right? So like that's what they say So like so the thing is yes I think we should counsel people to repent of not only the sense they commit but the sense the desire to commit and the poles

That they feel sorts could sin, but then does that necessarily entail? Does that necessarily entail that the homosexual should straighten up and marry a member of the opposite sex, right?

Mm -hmm. And yes, it does like it does Absolutely, it does. Okay explain that a little bit

Um well, if you know homosexuality is not some fixed and immovable part of a person's orientation like is some thing that's

Unable to be changed or anything else then if you take away that as as if it's a reality

Then the reality is actually that God tells mankind to be fruitful and multiply fill the earth and subdue it

That's what God that's God's Instruction to mankind is to be fruitful to be multiplied to fill the earth and subdue it and so That that's that's not just a command that well unless you feel attracted to men, right?

If you're a man who feels attracted to men Well, it's like well put to death was earthly and you this evil desire, right? And so the

Bible gives you a put off dynamic and there's a put on dynamic you have to put off the wicked desires put on the good desires if a man is

Burning sexually like with with desire the Bible says is better to marry than burn because marriage is meant to be a

Is marriage is fundamentally? Meant for human beings to be a help in dealing with sexual immorality.

That's why it's there So the Bible tells a couple, you know, don't deprive one another except for a limited time for the purpose of prayer

But then come together quickly unless you be tempted Because of your weakness, right?

so sexual sexual expression in the context of covenant marriage is meant to be a source of safety and protection from an individual and part of How you put off the evil desire is to put on the good desire now immediately when you say that kind of thing like the only way

I mean the reason why that feels so offensive is because Like what everyone is basically accepted in some sort of mindless way

This I didn't this homosexual identity is some sort of identity that is fixed and unmovable and basically what they hear you to be saying when you say something along those lines is it's like It's like well, you know

You're telling a person basically just well, you don't you're not sexually attracted to women.

So you're just gonna have to you know Hold your nose and you know bear with it and do whatever you can't right?

Mm -hmm But then, you know, I think the whole like bisexual phenomenon and everything else it you know

We're playing by different rules at different points in time And so what are the rules, you know is is is sexual orientation fixed and immovable like the homosexual?

Calculus or is it like the new? You know, we're with all the bisexual stuff is it just fluid, you know

Are you sexually fluid and just changes and everything else? And I think the reality is that God made individuals to be sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex and if you're not then you need to deal with whatever issues that you need to deal with Put off whatever evil sets of desires that you need to deal with and it's possible to actually do that and I would tell you

That you need to pursue you know pursue the opposite of that and and I obviously say that like, you know, probably it would be unwise for the

Practicing sodomite to convert and then the next day If he has zero attraction to women the next day, you know, just go get married at Vegas or something

In order to hopefully, you know trial by fire, you know, you might want to try to work on Cleaning yourself up a little bit before you do that, but at the same time like yes,

I think I think Contrary to what Butterfield and you know Hill Perry and Sam Albury are saying there is more hope that it's such where some of you and you can put to death these evil orientations and that you can actually learn to repudiate it and you can actually function in a normal way and the lie of the

You know the homosexual the whole lie of the homosexual lies essentially you can't you know I think you have to trust by faith that God can cleanse you to the uttermost as far as that goes and part of you know part of how you know that You know,

I just it's it's absurd, you know, like It's absurd I mean they're there you're living in a kind of society where now people are attracted to animals with bestiality and everything else, right?

Yeah And part of what happens there is that the more you give yourself over to depravity the more levels of depravity and taboo things

You know start to become normative, but there is hope that like you don't just it's not like oh

Well, you were attracted to the animal at one time, you know, so therefore you can never be attracted to a woman again You know, it's like that isn't the way it works

You can put off the deviant attractions and you know, it may take some time to retrain you, you know

But I don't think it's like an overnight thing. But if you stop feeding these immoral attractions, they go away

Then they're not just gonna stay there forever If you keep on feeding them and if you put a wall around them and say hey, you can't touch them

Yeah, they may stay there, you know, yeah Like if you keep on running down that track, you know, you keep on running on that track

As far as that goes, you know, I'm reminded of someone like Hugh Hefner Who you know was the guy who?

Invented playboy or whatever and You know towards the end of his life He's kind of an old man who was unable to be like he'd given himself over to such, you know immorality that he was unable to be attracted to women anymore and Essentially, you know at the very end of it, you know, he's

You know on the set, you know with all the depravity that's going on.

He's Self -stimulating to gay porn because that's the only thing that could work for him anymore

And that's kind of what happens, you know, like if you give yourself over to certain levels of depravity Like you you're training yourself in a deviant practice and you're fundamentally altering, you know, your

Sexual to drive but you can take it all back by God's grace. It may take some time, but you can you can you can

Yeah, you're not There's no sin that way you that you can't be cleansed from and despite the lies of psychology

These things aren't fixed and immovable. You can turn from them. Does that make sense? Yeah Yeah, I um, no,

I think that's good. And I think that's a good place for us to kind of and I even think there might be some questions that even

I still have that Maybe we can work into like some midweek episodes that maybe we could

Even, you know flesh out a little more or I have a few that I didn't even really Necessarily get to that.

I think would be interesting to hear what you have to say on them. But um But for this episode, I think

I think that's kind of a good place for us to stop and so be so be looking at for those of you listening be looking out for those midweek episodes and And we'll see you guys again next time this has been another episode of Bible bashed

We hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion we thank you for all your support and ask you to continue to like and subscribe to Bible bashed and share our

Podcasts with your friends and on social media Please reach out to us with your questions push back and potential topics for us to discuss in future episodes at Bible bash podcast at gmail .com

Now go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move