Should Christians Counsel Gays to Straighten Up and Marry a Member of The Opposite Sex?

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People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio. The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone. And any who reject Christ therefore forfeit any hope of salvation.

Salvation any hope of heaven.

The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of Almighty God.

Is.

Hanging over our head. They will hear his words They will not act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment when the fires of wrath come They will be consumed and they will perish. God wrapped himself in flesh Condescended and became a man died on the cross for sin was resurrected on the third day Has ascended to the right hand of the father where he sits now to make intercession for us.

Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words They will act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day their house will stand.

Welcome to Bible bash where we aim to equip the Saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions You're not allowed to ask. We're your host Harrison Kerrig and pastor Tim mullet and today we seek to answer the age-old question.

Should Christians counsel gays to straighten up and marry a member of the opposite sex? So we're doing this particular episode. Because I don't know if any of you guys listening. I've heard this but there's actually been a bill passed recently.

Up in our country to the north Canada. They passed a bill Recently that's focused a lot around Homosexuality and how people can interact with with homosexuals and so Tim, could you just kind of explain? for a moment, what exactly this bill is what it means what's going on with it and and what it will mean for Christian the Christian Church and the upcoming near future.

Yeah, sure.

So this bill c4 bill that was passed in Canada. It was it was essentially passed unanimously and it's a bill that essentially is criminalizing any attempt to change a homosexuals. Quote-unquote. Orientation.

So it's a bill that basically criminalizes any attempt to do so in a way. That's pretty thoughtless. I mean, I think.

There's.

You know. Attempts. Psychological attempts to change. There has been historically attempts to change a person's orientation as far as that goes Through you know electroshock shock therapy and crazy things along those lines so there's plenty of psychological attempts to do to do that.

That Do are cruel in certain ways and unhelpful and ineffective to actually deal with the problems. But basically any attempt to do so. Whether it's through Christian counseling. And this is not even criminalizing.

Unlike an unwilling person like a person who is being forced, you know to change Orientation against their will. This this is outlawing in like basically any help that you might provide. Anyone who comes to you asking you for help in dealing with this in any kind of context?

And so it's a pretty sloppy bill, but this is this is something that's been happening for a while now and Just to say a few comments about it as it relates to the Christian world in general it seems like you know big evangelicalism the Christian world has basically.

Been.

You know adopted all the Secular assumptions as far as this goes and so there's a lot that we could talk about along these lines. But for a while now all the you know main Individuals who were speaking to the issue of reparative therapy or gay conversion Therapy as far as that goes most of those have been ex-gays or lesbians.

So I'm thinking in particular of Rosario Butterfield or Jackie Hill Perry or Sam Albury. Those are individuals who are being promoted and you know any kind of That they would label in one way or the another an attempt to change a person's orientation.

As.

Basically a heresy so they talk about the heresy of reparative therapy or conversion therapy. And so the evangelical world and the Christian world are the evangelical world and the secular world are all kind of united in this quest to either outlaw gay conversion therapy or label it a heresy or Speak against it in the strongest terms possible and I would say that You know it seems that Europe and Canada are one you know stage further than we are in In basically all these issues and so if Christians don't Unite and take a stand and repent of the errors that we need to repent of it.

It seems safe to assume that you know this is where we're headed. Now I think there are some signs of life in America that basically there is some pushback over here that may Or may not prove to be effective.

There's plenty of people. You know soccer moms now storming the gates. Critical theory. This is leading the way you know how sad sad as that is. That's where the resistance is coming from but there is some resistance here and I am hopeful that perhaps our nation will wake up and And would not go the way of Canada or Europe, but these things are distressing for sure.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so the bill the bill is basically you know the. It's labeled as a bill that is meant to outlaw Conversion therapy, but then the problem is if you read this bill. The definitions are so vague that really what it effectively is a tool that could be used to outlaw really any kind of Push back against homosexuality is that that's right.

Yeah, I mean even even at the sermon level or something like that. You know any any attempt in any way to basically speak to a biblical position on sexual immorality is going to be.

Lumped in under the same kind of category and so effectively what's what's going to happen is now in Canada you have a legitimate Bill put forth by the government that nobody opposed in terms of you know the politicians who are given a vote To this thing.

No no one no one opposed it and so now what's going to happen is you're going to have. You're essentially what you're doing is you're outlawing the Bible. Is that fair to say yeah?

I mean particularly as it relates to that one subject sure as is You know now labeled illegal to speak on that and so you had a lot of a lot of Canadian pastors who were reaching out to American pastors essentially asking everyone on the 16th, which is next Sunday to basically to preach a sermon on the Bible's position on a homosexual orientation and the biblical admonition to change as far as that goes and so.

Basically you have some influential pastors down there James Coates. I think Joe boot dr. Joe boot who were and and others who are basically Encouraged basically going to defy that law the Sun the Sunday after its past or goes and goes into effect essentially and then a lot of American pastors are asked to join in on that just basically support them on what they're doing and then also basically to Start establish a precedent of resistance even here before it happens to go that way assuming that it may.

Which seems likely it will but unless the Lord's at work, yeah, it's definitely this is a very concerning You know event that's going on right now, and and it's not really Surprising if you've been paying attention to the way everything's been going in the Western world the last For I mean I guess for me the last two years or so, but really probably much longer than that but essentially this is our We wanted to do this episode To to be a part of that to you know speak out in the way that we can against homosexuality Knowing what the Bible has to say about it in light of this bill, which is essentially You know banning the Bible's view on You know the family on Sex, you know all all these things that are really kind of Foundational to pretty much everything Every aspect of life, you know, I mean the family is foundational to these things and so this is our this was this is our Effort to you know be a part of that and speak out against it.

So we have a lot of questions to go through and I don't I don't know that we'll make it through all of them. But I really want to get through a lot of these because I think that they'll be really helpful for people.

So I guess You know where we'll start first is simply just to ask obviously There are a lot of people who disagree with us when it comes to homosexuality when it comes to same-sex attraction. They really don't even understand why we so staunchly Disagree with them and why we won't just go away on this topic or at least some Christians won't I Think some have already, you know, they've already given up on on this stance.

But thankfully there's still there's still some who refuse to move from this but Tim Could you just start out by explaining to us? Why exactly is this such an important topic? Why I mean essentially a lot of people are just gonna say hey look Love is love, right?

Why are you against? This type of love just because it's not the way that you love someone so Tim, I guess could you just start there and explain for our listeners why exactly it is that we refuse to that we refuse to say that this is just another innocent form of of Love that's just different From the way that you and I would.

Yeah, are you asking? Related to homosexual love in general or you're asking related to You know homosexual and quote-unquote love in general. You're talking about Reparative therapy in general. Why we would push back you're talking about.

Like a homosexual orientation, which where do you wanna? Yeah, I guess I guess. Let's just start. Just push back on.

Go ahead. I guess let's just start with homosexual love in general and and kind of work our way to the The reparative therapy aspect of it because I do have some questions related to that. But it might be nice to have a bit of this of this background to kind of build on.

Yeah, sure, so the world's definition of love is is certainly what we've described in different podcasts as Universal positive regards. So the world demands that basically in order to love someone you praise them no matter what they do, right?

So you have to you have to tell them they're wonderful. You have to tell them that they're special and then you basically just have to give them what they want, right?

So.

Related to the fast-shaming episode that we did.

Love, you know, that one was very good.

They're very loving it for sure. But love, you know, so love in the way that the world understands it is given the 600-pound person You know as many pizzas as they want. It's basically giving the person what they want, but then you know, if you think about love from a biblical worldview, there's obviously things that a person can engage in which are harmful for them and That don't need to be praised if as far as that goes and so a biblical definition of love is not just going to mindlessly praise whatever a person happens to Choose in terms of their actions their attitudes or identity or whatever else a biblical view Love is going to be informed by what is helpful to that individual right, so There are things that we can praise and there are things that we can't praise and there are things that we should support and there are things that we can't support and Homosexual love if as far as that goes is an example of something that the Bible speaks of as a sin and everything the Bible describes as a sin are destructive to in one way or another and You know whether or not you realize all the ways in which Advice in the scriptures is destructive it is irrelevant.

God smarter than us he knows better than us how he's made the world and You know homosexual love as far as that goes an attempt to find some sort of companionship between members of the same you know ultimate intimate companionship among Members of the same sex it's a fruitless enterprise.

And I mean that literally is fruitless meaning you know if you engage in that you're opening yourself up to certain forms of disease you're rejecting the Purpose for which God made you I got to create a man He put him in a garden.

He says be fruitful multiply fill the earth and subdue it. You can't you know fill the earth full of people. If you engage in a same-sex relate Relationship, it's not productive as far as that goes. It's it leads you to feed your selfishness in certain ways and so God's designed marriage to be An intimate form of companionship that puts two different types of creatures together man and female in order to help them to grow and to be sanctified and to be less selfish and so Same-sex relationships fundamentally feed selfishness.

It doesn't push you in the ways that they should push you. There's destructive and societal consequences to this sort of thing it is a perversion in the language of Scripture and and it's something that we shouldn't praise and so.

So those are just some short answers to the question of why? Christian might push back against the idea of homosexual love.

Okay, well, I think you know that's that's a helpful Response in terms of why is this such an important topic that we need to constantly? You know Bring it up and explain why homosexuality is wrong and why we can't just Go away on this topic why we can't just you know Be silent and and let people just do whatever they want unchecked when it comes to homosexuality.

So in light of this Now now kind of going back to the reparative therapy The conversion therapy bill and up in Canada, obviously this bill is Essentially outlawing any kind of pushback against homosexuality.

That's how vague.

The.

Definition of Conversion therapy is in the bill. So, you know, I guess now kind of Kind of answer the the same question, but with conversion therapy, you know, like it well. Maybe not the same question, but more just ask.

Your answer the answer the question. Why is it?

That.

Christians not only have to think that homosexuality is wrong that homosexuality is evil. But they have to constantly keep telling everyone it's wrong. Even when the majority of society at this point You know accepts homosexuality for what it is and and isn't really Gonna push back against it.

Why is it that Christians have to keep? Essentially, you know opening our big fat mouths and saying hey you shouldn't do this. You shouldn't do this. You shouldn't do this. You need to turn away from this.

Why exactly is that so crucial for us?

Yeah, so, you know part of the discussion is related to What you know, what what are Christians actually pushing back on so. There's plenty of discussion and debate on that very point. So are we Pushing back on the act of you know, sodomy itself or the act of gay marriage itself.

Are we pushing back on the idea of a gay orientation? What did you have in mind for this line of thinking? Are you talking about just why are we pushing back on? The actions itself like gay marriage or you know Sodomy or those kind of things.

Are we pushing back on the orientation and trying to change the orientation? What do you have in mind?

Really both. I think it's I think it's both.

Yeah, well.

Yeah, so Obviously so one of the things we talked about before is there's the issue of love and that's involved. So you have a certain definition of love that is being redefined. So I think most people understand and are very aware that there are practices which are harmful to individuals.

So related to a subject like pedophilia. We still live in a world which strangely Thinks that pedophilia is wrong. And I say that it's strange because we've like adopted every other form of sexual immorality as if it's normative.

But still we're holding on to pedophilia as being abnormal but then you know attempts to Try to change a person's you know orientation towards pedophilia. We we haven't gotten to a point to where? That's considered to be criminal or a crime or anything else.

And so that's strangely put in some other category. But then if you could think about that subject for it for for a minute you would realize that. Hey, it wouldn't it be better for kids? Who are being abused by Perverts wouldn't it be better for them to to try to criminalize or outlaw or push back against pedophilia.

Well sure you know. Related to bestiality wouldn't it be better to try for the animals you know since we love animals so much wouldn't be better for the animals to try to Push back against the idea of bestiality to some degree because you know an animal can't consent and all that.

And and we have to protect the animals and so wouldn't that be better to try to do that well. We know that it would but then with the idea of homosexuality because it's consenting adults this idea of consent being can you know?

Having adults consent to a particular act. That's you know considered that the the linchpin of the moral arrangement. But we don't think we don't have any thought about all the destructive Things that actually come from that so so part of it.

You know if you're thinking about it on a practical level there are. There is actual harm that comes from homosexual relationships. There is actual harm. The tangible harm that we could talk about a great link, but I think the more fundamental issue is that God has made man he's created him with the purpose and that purpose needs to be fulfilled and so God is the primary one who is sinned against when it comes to the issue of sodomy I can or homosexuality God's the primary one who is sinned against and his is his world and we are his creatures and he has made us and and if we're Christians we ought we ought to be advocating for his purposes and Advocating for his glory and seeking his honor and following his rules.

And so he's the one we're primarily concerned about not people and so it's you know God's made us. And he's described the church as responsible to be salt and light in the midst of a fallen world and so that's part of our responsibility in this world is to to be an agent of Preservation in the midst of a fallen world, and if we you know if we don't want to engage in that battle.

Then you know we we essentially are going to be unfaithful to his purposes, and you know and typically as the church goes society goes and so The more that we you know refuse to push back against these things the more you know I don't not only societal consequences.

You'll see but the more judgment of God that you'll See that we actually experience, and so you know as you read through Romans one you see that when God gives a society over to homosexuality. Not only are there human consequences that come from that deviant form of sexual immorality.

That are many. I mean there are many consequences that come from that, but also God's active judgment is going to be. Well God's active judgment is visited in itself on a society engaging in Those kind of behaviors and attitudes and actions, but then.

Then you know eventually when he's had enough and the iniquity of a society is complete God will come in judgment against that society too, so there's I guess there's there's a lot of reasons why we have to Clearly and faithfully and forcefully speak against these things.

But not only that I mean if you love people you know the Bible says that neither fornicators nor Idolaters nor effeminate or homosexuals will inherit the kingdom of God. I mean if you love people this is the kind of thing that God Categorically puts in the same category as you know fornicators idolaters effeminate homosexual murderers thieves you know these these are things that if Engaged in an unrepentant way will bar people from entrance into God's kingdom at the end.

You mentioned In your response you mentioned essentially By neglecting to speak out against homosexuality and condemn it. What will happen is? Essentially society will suffer for a few different reasons and You know whether it be God's judgment or just the inherent evilness of homosexuality much, you know much like if If you know if no one ever spoke out against murder.

And then everyone just started murdering obviously that society with no punishment you know for the murder then obviously that society is is going to suffer and Homosexuality homosexuality is no different, but I but I have seen a lot of people essentially.

You know come back and say well hey, you know what I've actually seen more harm caused By Christians trying to you know tell gay people to stop being so gay. I've seen more harm come from that than good and and more specifically you know I think a lot of the common kind of experiences that that most people are probably immediately thinking of when I Say something like that is like hey, I can think of the you know gay person who they grew up in church and and they knew that Homosexuality was wrong, and they knew that they shouldn't feel the way that they feel.

But then they still feel that way and they said they say they want to stop being attracted to the same sex. But then they just can't stop and so they start struggling with these ideas. Oh, you know they start feeling depressed, and they start feeling worthless and you know all of these negative emotions and and I've seen plenty of people push back with that idea saying hey well You know what if if it's so helpful, then why aren't all these people you know?

Why aren't all these people glad to flee from homosexuality? Why does it seem like they're always? being hurt.

So so and.

Answering that question could you just kind of Explain to us. I guess first. Why is it that it seems like there's so many people Who when confronted with the idea that homosexuality is evil? They they're just met with essentially disappointment even if they Might you know there's an aspect of them that might even agree that maybe it's not That good or they at least acknowledge.

Hey, God doesn't think it's good.

Yeah, sure, so yeah along those lines basically why Part of why that you know Canada is criminalizing this sort of thing is because there's this narrative that's a formed essentially that any you know attempt to Try to change a person's orientation.

As far as that goes if there is such a thing as a homosexual Identity or orientation in the way that's being described any attempt to change that Will inevitably lead you know the person to commit suicide or something like that.

And there's been all the you know the homosexuals who commit suicide or the transgenders who commit suicide because They are basically shamed for being who the who they are essentially in terms of their identity.

And then that shaming basically leads them to despair and leads them to you know this false kind of guilt Which is going to inevitably lead them to suicide.

It's that kind of what you have in mind. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so that kind of narrative is is I think it's a very naive Understanding of reality in general, and it doesn't really deal with Some of the things that the Bible speaks to so in terms of the way scriptures work God's moral law is written on our heart.

And the Holy Spirit sent into the world to convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment. And so this is the kind of world I mean God made the kind of world that he made and the kind of world that He made is the kind of world to where his laws.

You can you can violate them. But then if you violate his his laws you're only going to be led to heartache and pain and suffering. And so one of the things the Bible says is the way of the transgressor is hard.

Meaning you know there's a there's a way that seems right under man. But in the end it leads to death if you reject God's laws that you reject God's standards. There's a problem of guilt that's associated with it, so just you know take a different kind of analogy.

So take the analogy of murder or something like that. I'm sure that you've watched plenty of movie where the you know the person commits the murder and then you know basically they spend the rest of their life kind of destabilized after that and filled with guilt and filled with shame and filled with condemnation and constantly looking over their shoulder and Constantly wondering when the police are going to come get them you can imagine that kind of scenario.

You see it in you know books or movies or everything else you can imagine that kind of scenario now God gives a law that says hey don't murder right. And there are consequences to that kind of thing now you reject that law you can reject it all day long and say hey well Murder was justified in my case.

And you know God will forgive me and whatever else or you know who is he to tell me you know if he knew it I went through and you know you can do all that. But then because the world is the world that he made.

When you do that you are going to experience the consequences that come from that and one of the consequences That come from that is the consequence of guilt and shame and condemnation if that makes sense and so when you're related to the idea of sodomy and you relate you relate that to the idea of sodomy you relate that to The idea of transgenderism you relate that to these sexual identities and orientations.

That are seek seeking to be praised in society in general one of the problems. Is that if you if you tried like you have a you know a different morality? That's that operation within the world and went within the church and one of the things that To realize is that there used to be social stigmas and pressures against certain forms of deviant sexual behavior that were.

You know you like you they were largely preventative medicine as far as that goes. They were you know they might have been executed at times in a bit of a cruel way. I mean, I remember growing up. There was a you know game that You know would be blasphemous to play now, but in the spirit of the queer game essentially or something like that and so when people When people when people think about you know trying to repair a gay person's identity.

That's the kind of example that comes to mind as you know you're just you know a bully picking on the poor person who is born this way and can't do anything about it and what you need to do is triumphantly affirm your identity and Part of what's happening in movies and societies and in general is that in every movie and every TV show you know the gay person is always the best dressed and always the the most intelligent and you know everything else always the most witty and.

And so our society is actively trying to praise this vice, but then the problem is there's consequences to that kind of thing. And it's not a path that ultimately is going to lead to anything good. And the problem is that there's guilt and there's shame that comes with it and When you engage in high-handed rebellion against God the problem is you're gonna feel guilt and you're gonna feel shame and you're gonna feel Condemnation and no amount of looking in the mirror and saying hey you're wonderful, and you're special Is gonna help you to deal with that fundamental reality, and that's why you know gays and transgenders, and you know all that.

That's why they commit higher levels of suicide, and it's not because you know people are Messing with them or whatever else on some sort of broad scale although. I would say that you know the fact that There might be Society that's still pushing back against that at all in whatever way is Better than being in the society that universally praises it because it is a destructive lifestyle that it is gonna lead to guilt.

And shame and condemnation and there's moral things that are happening in these kind of scenarios that The world is unaware of and there's I mean there's no way that you can Pursue rebellion against God and not you know be fundamentally destabilized Fundamentally hopeless and given in to despair.

And everything else I mean you can pursue iniquity with everything that you have and all you're gonna Get is pain and suffering and heartache. And you know that's what happens when the transgender person changes their gender.

They think oh, man. I'm a you know I'm a man trapped.

In a.

I'm really a man who's trapped in a woman's body, and if I just changed my body You know that'll be the answer and then you know surprise You know wonder of wonders they end up wanting to commit suicide after they get the surgery because they realize that they fundamentally You know just mutilated themselves, and it didn't fix the fundamental problems, and now they've they've you know marred The image of God in them to such a degree that you know they're never you can't go back from it.

And it doesn't help and you can look at that in some simplistic way and say oh That's because society is shaming this person. And and it's just the wrong conclusion the conclusion is you're living in God's world and what he says goes and when you rebel in a high-handed way like that there is guilt and shame and condemnation that ultimately is going to lead you to despair and Have no hope left, and that's what that's the fruit of it.

That's the bitter fruit of it.

So why is it then. I've seen I've seen people you know primarily online. So take that for you know take that with a grain of salt I guess but I've seen plenty of people online who Essentially say we actually read an article both you and I this week where a guy who was claiming to be homosexual and Christian.

Which we know unrepentantly homosexual. And and we know you and I know that those two Things they uh they kind of contradict each other and. But anyways we were we were reading this article from this guy, I've forgotten his name now.

But he essentially said was saying You know hey look I realized that When I was younger you know I grew up, and I think of Either a Baptist or a Southern Baptist Church, I realized that the Bible said that homosexuality was wrong.

I knew what I was feeling what I was desiring In terms of who I was attracted to was wrong, and I didn't. I didn't want To be attracted to the same sex. I didn't want to be attracted to men when I was a man.

And.

And I feel like I've I've seen I've seen people. Say that they feel this way where essentially hey, I get it's wrong. I don't want to do it. I don't want to be attracted to a man. Why can't I stop I? Keep trying I keep trying to You know not be gay.

But it just doesn't seem like I can stop and then eventually a lot of them either Come to the conclusion that well it must not be that bad if I can't stop or You know well God's not real then. Because they keep saying this is wrong if it were wrong.

I should be able to stop, but I can't stop so why is it that? People when confronted with the reality that they need to. They need to you know if you're a man be attracted to a woman and a woman be attracted to a man.

When they're confronted with that idea they they just say it seems like so many of them just can't even Get there. Could you could you talk about that a little bit?

Yeah, well that thing that you're describing That you know the reality that there are people who want to you know quit being gay or want to quit You know being attractive to members of the same sex and are having little to no Success in changing that does fundamental set of desires or that orientation or that?

Those poles. And they can't seem to bring themselves to be attracted to members of the opposite sex. That's I mean that's a reality that That there's plenty of stories that go along those lines, and I don't have some vested interest in saying that.

That's never happened, or they're just lying about it or whatever else, but that's the kind of thing that Essentially has led. You know individuals like Rosario Butterfield Sam are very Jackie Hill Perry essentially to describe an expectation on the part of the church that an individual does change that or some sort of teaching that basically says that the gospel has Provided a solution to that they would describe that as a form of heresy Essentially because they're looking at a person like that they know people like that they've interacted with people like that who seem to have a little to no success and then you know they They describe it in kind of a dismissive way is attempting to pray the gay away or something like that right mm-hmm.

And so there's people there's obviously people in that category, but then the question is well. Why that's your question essentially, right? Yeah, or what do you do with that? What do you do with that sort of information, or how do you respond to that sort? of information right.

How can you encourage essentially? How can you encourage people to try to?

Yeah.

Is this a Bible tell us to try to encourage them to fix that or is that part of who they are or is that? You know what how do we deal with that kind of reality right. Mm-hmm? Yeah, and I would just say that you know the reality is that in general I would say the church really hasn't taught on sanctification in general and and and so just you know broadening the topic out.

And most of what you get a standard church is gonna be you know either the self-help crap that you're gonna get and you know. You're big like megachurches church for the unchurch Andy Stanley type of churches you get all the self-help crap.

You're gonna get a watered-down you know gospel like you you know. At churches that are attempted to be faithful often. They really provide very little practical help as it relates to how to be sanctified in general.

And there's plenty of movements out there that basically just you know the church what happens on Sunday is it's basically an evangelistic Event where you give 52 ways to be saved every year and very little to no help on how to be sanctified.

And so I'm not surprised that that for many people. They really don't have the people who are talking about this. They really don't have they have very little understanding of how to even pursue sanctification and so.

Then when you talk about hey trying to change a homosexual orientation or something like that. To them that's reduced and this is always a tag or this always a tell like if you want to poke or tell. To someone who really has a very stunted view of sanctification and doesn't know how to any very little about sanctification.

When they talk about the subject and they say they they reduce that to attempting to pray the gay away or something like that. That basically tells you that they don't have any understanding of sanctification and how it works.

And how you should you know deal with any any kind of deviant sect any kind of deviant sin that you're Committed so I would say that there's some sort of dynamic like that that. And I'm sure there's many many people who you know have prayed, you know, Lord, please take it away.