SRR #35 | Lordship Salvation Controversy | Are You Really Saved?

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To Semper Ephraim on the radio, my name is Tim and I am with my other two co -hosts today

Carlos Montijo and Joseph Rios and We are part of the

Bible thumping wingnut Network. There's a number of other podcasts on there to check out and Also, like I said last week

Create a profile account on the Bible thumping wingnut web page and friend request us and then you can also join the

Podcast that you like you can join their group and then you can get email updates with whatever they've got going on so we were going to have

Gary Edwards here today, but we We had to fire him.

I'm just kidding Gary. We love you but Gary had some some family stuff come up and he wasn't able to meet with us and the reason that I really wanted to have

Gary on was Yeah, just to give a little bit of a balance I know that Colleen Sharp from Theology Gals is gonna be disappointed

She's gonna feel like her view wasn't represented So Colleen, I'm sorry about that It's Gary's fault.

He's not here But and then, you know, we've got

Joseph and I think he takes a more of a view with As a matter of fact, hey

Joseph, is that the train in the background with with you or Joseph's catching a train

But anyways, just just to talk about the different perspectives, but in the end we are going to end up giving our perspective this is a

Semper Ephraim on the radio and and we're going to We're going to end with that and so we are disappointed that Gary wasn't able to be here with us today and Hopefully, I mean we really appreciate

Gary I don't know if we see eye to eye on everything But he is he is one smart guy and he definitely is a has challenged us

In some of the things that we we thought as a matter of fact You know last week now or the week before Carlos said that if you disagree with him then you're probably wrong and then

Gary disagreed with him and then Carlos ended up apologizing for Causing some confusion there.

So he's he's sharp. He really is and and we do appreciate him but today the discussions is primarily going to be led by Carlos Montijo our co -host and And I'm looking forward to that.

He really put in a lot of the work this week to to actually read John MacArthur's books, and I I honestly have not read them yet.

So I'm you know, I'm qualified to talk on the things that I believe but when it comes to actually

Reading the book and giving a comprehensive overview of it I'm not there yet And and then

Joseph is is extremely familiar with John MacArthur and I wanted to I wanted to ask you guys

Give you a chance to say hello But I wanted to ask you guys if you guys were able to catch in in the

Shepherds conference that just happened So no, I hadn't I hadn't watched any. Okay, I caught a little bit of the last session with MacArthur teaching but other than that not so much a little bit the news of the

AHA stuff being there and I'm pretty close friends with a lot of people that were there but But didn't get to watch many of the sermons yet or even the

Q &A's. What about you Carlos? Did you were you able to catch any of it? Yes, and no

No, not the new one. But yes previous ones So I was looking at the

I was looking at the old ones because you know The technology devil is always out to get me and I can't really watch

Livestream stuff because it's just it doesn't work at our house. So I did watch some previous messages that were pretty interesting one of them.

I was trying to find relevant stuff, too that was relevant for the Lordship stuff and I did find something that Actually brother

Gary had touched on about MacArthur's experience with meeting I think it was Zane Hodges and how he had he had run into some

One of his friends I guess was backsliding or falling away and and so I guess

MacArthur kind of thought that that might have been the reason why he came up with this view of no

Lordship or whatever But other than that, yeah, I did listen to McCart some of MacArthur's messages.

One of them was also very very interesting in revealing his it really revealed his bias for or preference for Biblical theology over systematic theology was actually really funny because The the whole discussion was about like what systematic theologies do you you know, do you like or how do you?

Go about studying that or something like that and MacArthur basically said that He doesn't really he doesn't really read systematic theologies and you can tell he just kind of he made it all about commentaries and about He in his biography to he says how he likes to judge the

He likes to judge a theologian by how he handles the text and it's like yeah, you know It's really funny.

But the you can really judge a theologian by the way, he systematizes his doctrine. So I mean that's something that We're definitely going to get into more with one of the one of the things about I guess one of MacArthur's biases that I think has really

If he had if he had a better balance between that I think his ministry would have a lot more

Impact in a positive way, but I digress Yeah, and that's not to say that his ministry hasn't had a tremendous impact

But let me let me go ahead and do this. Let me back up a little bit because I want to Address really what's going on with Facebook and it's funny because my wife asked me this week

She you know said why is it that whenever you guys You know put out your episode a lot of times

You guys are the ones that are creating firestorms and I was like, well, I mean that happened with conversations from the porch

And when we criticized New Covenant theology and that was sort of to be expected But when we took on this

Lordship salvation stuff with Peter Christian, which by the way, I don't even think that Peter Christian That that's his real last name and Gary Informed me today that he has a

He has he has two Facebook accounts, so I don't know really what I think

Christian is probably a pseudonym For him. I really don't know and I haven't really we've had no interaction with him, but You know when we started talking to him

I just thought it'd be interesting since he was calling John MacArthur and Steve Lawson and Paul Washer Heretics just to have him on and talk about it.

I had no idea that so many people were gonna get wrapped up in this Lordship salvation controversy discussion and The the comments that went back and forth on one of the posts.

It was pretty surprising. I think there were over 400 comments At one point and I'm just gonna let everybody know

I don't have time for that I don't have time to to read comments to really interact with stuff on Facebook As much

I know Joseph has been He's been interacting with a lot of the comments on there and and I saw

Joseph and Gary going back and forth but um One of the things that I want to encourage

Our listeners. I want to encourage people out there with is our goal at Semper Ephraim on the radio is to Interact in a way with others who disagree with us that really reflects a genuine love and care for the other person and what

I don't want is for people to be marginalized or attacked or anything like that and there were people who

I think were getting upset and The whole purpose of us bringing

Gary on if you if you look at the comment that Gary left on On the website actually underneath I think the first episode

I mean he explained it, but if you if you read the comment, it sounded harsh

It sounded like you know, he was saying like this was the worst podcast or debate, you know, or you know something to that effect and You can't always tell what the other person, you know, you can't you can't gauge tone of voice.

You can't gauge You're very limited in in how you can perceive the other person and how they're interacting and so My encouragement is look we

We love John MacArthur. We think Extremely highly of John MacArthur.

He is he is a tremendous brother in the Lord He has done a lot for the for the faith for the church

We are going to disagree with John MacArthur, especially Carlos and I probably more so than Joseph we are going to disagree with him and and We are going to basically say that some of the things that he says we think are wrong now we're making an argument and People are encouraged and invited to counter our arguments with their own arguments or to say hey

This is why we think that you know MacArthur's right and what he says or whatever

So I want that to be at the forefront of everybody's mind

We love MacArthur. We think extremely highly of MacArthur This is not an attack on him.

You don't need to get upset If if somebody says something that that you disagree with with MacArthur, nobody here is calling him a heretic nobody here is trying to diminish his his ministry and Do you guys have anything to add to everything that I just said?

I went into like a seven minute little explanation on that. But what are your guys's thoughts?

Well, I mean that you know, we're two things one We're still we're still learning we're still looking at everything and we have nobody here's arrived, right?

so nobody here's coming with the the full knowledge to to take him apart and say that you know with absolute certainty he's

He's in that way misrepresenting God and he's and it's a horrible thing. Nobody's saying that I mean even on the flip side of that he didn't get to To where he is today having all the opinions he has today having always had them so the

It's a process. I think it's just it's good to for for a couple of reasons one two, you know

Watson and and With each other and work through them as I'm sure he had

Contemporaries of his time as he was working through things to get to where he is today This is this is a process and it's iron iron sharpening iron

Thankfully, he's put a lot of things out there for us to sharpen ourselves off on without him being present as I'm sure he's a really busy man

Just a couple things to say and then we can get the ball rolling Yeah, I don't really think a lot of these

Endless back and forths on Facebook that I've been seeing. I don't think they I don't think they they're really that productive I think it's more productive when

If we really have something substantial to say I think it's better to save it for a blog post an article something that is a lot more that could be a lot more useful in the long run because it's just there on Facebook and people say stuff and they'll just leave it at that and then just kind of Nobody really refers back to that and it doesn't really

And thing people do get upset and things like that. So I think it's a We still we're still gonna definitely have to lay the smackdown on this whole

Facebook thing, but the other thing was And we that's not to say we don't like interaction.

I mean We appreciate people emailing us. We received some more emails Again about this

Lordship stuff. It's getting a lot of attention more than I thought as well and But we just don't again like the

Going back to this whole cyber turd thing, right? I mean, that's what I just can't stand and a lot of times this kind of This kind of these kinds of environments of where there's a lot of Controversy and things like that that tends to foster

Foolish activity, so I guess and Facebook is just not the best platform for for for Sorting out controversial issues like that.

It really isn't But what but we do appreciate your interaction we I mean if you have a sincere question if you really want to just Want to know more about what if we if you don't think we were clear about something or whatever.

That's fine. We can we'd be more than happy to Go back and forth with you.

Just not Personally, I don't like doing that, you know long back and forth stuff, but I'm a public post like that.

But but anyway, I Actually wanted to start off the episode with a little bit of my backstory from from when

I was a relatively new believer and You know, and before I say that brother

Gary did say he did ask us to keep him in prayer to hopefully resolve some family Dispute or something like that.

So just keep that in mind. That's why he couldn't make it So we're keeping him in prayer and hopefully he'll be able to join us next time.

We talked about the Lordship stuff But well, I guess the topics that I had planned for today are mainly assurance and repentance and assurance and maybe get into rewards if we have time and But I wanted to give a little bit of backstory about how when

I was a King James only is because I was looking at a very

Very a website that was very sharply Promoting that jesusasavior .com.

I think it was and This website it's funny because when I first heard about Paul Washer And I'm saying this because it kind of relates to Peter Christian and how in his view when my wife first introduced me to Paul, she wasn't my wife at the time, but she introduced me to Paul Washer and I basically

I would run everything through this website to see if it was you know If he or she or it was legit

So I ended up looking him up on this website and they basically Had criticized him for his view of the gospel and it was a very similar

Criticism that you hear from people like Peter Christian and the no Lordship guys

That he was emphasizing a lot of works and things like that So I basically went back to her and said no this guy's no good.

You know, he's this this like he's very he's off on this And so it was funny because when

I actually heard the shocking youth message it completely floored me I was

I was so convicted by that message and I was so blessed by it that Now I'm happy to say that Paul Washer and his ministry is one of them the most

The ministries that we that my wife and I have most benefited from and so, you know

The this stuff is definitely out there. It's very common to hear people making these kinds of criticisms and especially amongst like fundamentalist type groups with This King James only ism stuff and no

Lordship stuff you get you tend to get into a lot of imbalances and extremes and when especially when you do not know how to systematize your doctrine and that's why

I brought that up about MacArthur because I think if he had Emphasized systematic theology more and throughout his ministry

I think it would have helped to sort of balance out a lot of the biases and the the positions that I think he he's off on biblically, but yeah,

I just wanted to throw that out there and oh And it was funny because I also heard a message.

This is actually it's very much Still relevant today. I was not just the other day.

I was listening on the radio to preacher giving a gospel invitation and The invitation he basically said

Hey, you know if you if you've resonated with this and if you feel good about this or if you agree with what

I said then just feel free to pray after me and repeat this prayer and and He once he said the prayer.

He basically said after that he said, um, oh well, if you prayed that prayer then congratulations, you're a

Christian now and It's like I mean that was the most pathetic thing that I've heard I mean,

I've heard a lot of dumb stuff. You hear a lot of trash on the Christian radio, but that was really bad I mean that was just absurdly horrendously pathetic to for a pastor to say that you're a

Christian now be not even knowing you and Just saying that you're a Christian now because you recited a prayer after him so this that's the decisional gospel that we've been you know talking about the

Lordship has Taken issue with and that has really damaged American evangelical evangelicalism for decades

Sadly, that's something I'm maybe want to punch my computer screen. I was like watching one of the old

Kent Hovind debates Yeah, and I mean today he does that he basically does, you know, say this prayer now, you know write the read the date in your

Bible that way to basically that way nobody can tell you that you're not safe and and you're safe now and just read your

Bible and and You know, it's it's that exact like that was a phenomenon and then

He's a KJBO also, so Yeah, I I love Kent Hovind.

He was he dr. Dino I I watched all his seminars when I was a King James only is then he was you know, he

It's unfortunate because there's so much ignorance. There's like a purple haze of ignorance of spiritual ignorance.

That's pervaded by these cult -like groups By spreading so much false information and it keeps people really ignorant and Just it doesn't let you get to the actual truth of the matter a lot of times when you're caught up in this sort

Of cult -like mentality and there's levels of extremes. I mean not all King James only a star are the same

But Kent Hovind he did I have heard him preach a very good gospel message You know, he does have a decisional emphasis.

He's not reformed He's not a Calvinist and so I mean, you know, and you know, that's so there's there's a lot of That's not to say like he's he's definitely way off on a lot of things like the

King James Bible and the history of the Bible I mean, he just he really distorts what do you know the textual history about that?

Which by the way a good source for that is James White For both of those things, but actually it was James White who helped me get out of the

King James only Stuff with his King James only controversy. So that's a very good I would highly recommend that book for folks who are caught up in that but I And I do want to commend

Dr. John MacArthur for his one thing that I've always appreciated about Pastor MacArthur is that he never shies away from controversy

He is not afraid to take a stand and to be bold about it Especially when he feels the gospel is at stake or that the

Bible is at stake This is one of the things that I I've always Throughout throughout the years his ministry is marked by that and he even talks about how surprised he is that most of the battles that He's had to fight have been within church walls

With other with other so -called Christians and professing believers who are trying and that's what the

Bible says, you know, savage wolves people who are disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness and they try to infiltrate the church and spread a heresy from within But um,

I I've always appreciated about that about MacArthur you see a lot of these other pastors as they get older they tend to fall away from the faith and and with Pastor MacArthur that that definitely does not seem to be the case

Even though we do have disagreements and he has aired pretty substantially and pretty seriously on a lot of these issues

He has nevertheless Corrected himself and as best as he knows and as he can so we

I definitely my hats off to him hats off to him for that and but that being said

I'm almost done with the with the gospel according to the Apostles and I'm really kind of surprised at how many

There's there's some good stuff in there But honestly, it just seems from from what I was looking at He creates a lot of problems when he's trying to solve this issue about lordship and so I in all honesty,

I really can't recommend that book for people to To even like to read for for edification, you know, it requires a lot of discernment

I think for for people to be able to really kind of muddle through some of the confusion that he he still kind of has and pushes on When he's handling certain biblical texts and when he's trying to define faith and and so a lot of these central doctrines that are fundamental of Christianity but you know just the history of this controversy and how much he's had to correct himself and I think it's just really it's very easy to get lost and Confused and all of the weeds and all of the changes that he's had to make and things like that so I think you know, it's important to look at the primary sources so that you can get your own perspective on it and you know, but at this point

I kind of view the book as more of a reference for the just kind of detailing the historical controversy because unfortunately, yeah,

I did I did see kind of a lot of Things that that kind of alarmed me that startled me

Concerned me basically and so we're gonna address some of those here This a lot of this is also because when you're ignorant of church history and church controversies

That that's really a symptom of of a failing and decrepit Christianity you know because Paul said that there must be heresies among you so that you can know where the line is drawn and where people take the sides and you're able to judge, you know, who is who's really on God's side and But this this controversy has gotten very

Unfortunately, I don't think MacArthur just did a as good a job as I think he could have in defining the proper position and it just it convolutes a lot of stuff so we're gonna try to wade through that and But this is really

I think a symptom of this is because there's so much ignorance of church history as well And this has a lot to a lot to do with you know

People who are ignorant of church history and how these matters have been settled before Especially with We have resources that we can appeal to and MacArthur does try to he does appeal to them

I'm not you know, I'm not saying he doesn't because he doesn't reference, you know some of the Reformers and and even the

Westminster Confession at times, but I just think this is a very easy issue to get

To go wrong on certain things when you try to define some of these pivotal doctrines, but The first point that I wanted to touch on is that Well, you know what

Let me let me read. I don't think we properly set this up before so I'm gonna read from from the gospel according to the apostles to kind of set the background a little bit and Y 'all can go ahead and comment if you wanted to touch on anything that I said,

I'm gonna find the page While you're looking that up I'm gonna

I'm gonna look up a little bit and see what and just double check on For example with RC Sproul and somebody some people on the more of the confessionally reformed side of things have to say about it

And just so I can possibly balance out my understanding of it Interestingly enough some of our friends who who hold to more confessionally reform

Would would say this is where Sproul erred where he agreed with MacArthur. And so and so that's interesting

And I'm kind of curious as to how that'll play itself out but We checking that out as well yeah, yeah, it is important this is these are very important issues and that was one of the things that I kind of got frustrated with on Facebook too because I noticed that a lot of people have very strong opinions about this and they haven't even read any of this stuff for themselves and I want to make a note of this because MacArthur actually says that He doesn't like to do oral debates and he doesn't he thinks it's just not helpful and that you can't really get to the heart of the matter in a

Limited amount of time that way and I mean, I disagree with that. I think debates are extremely helpful I think they helped a lot in the

Reformation actually as well and several other contexts I mean Paul had no and he does say he actually says that Paul that the

Bible there's no Warrant for that in the Bible for doing debates But I'm kind of surprised with that because the Apostles engaged in debate all the time

I mean and so did Christ Christ was a master debater Just look at the the confrontations with the Pharisees and things like that and Paul constantly

Was discussing and debating people on public forums and things like that. So But anyway, he does say and I agree with him about this that the best way to resolve controversial matters like these is to is to have a

Detailed careful well thought out written dialogue and that's why he wrote the book He wrote the book, you know the gospel according to Jesus and and the

Apostles he wrote these books to try to Provide a definitive answer and to settle the matter on these things so if you're not aware of these books if you're not reading them and You're only getting like sermons and piecemeal stuff here and there you're actually kind of going against what

MacArthur himself suggests doing and so I'm just gonna keep you need to keep that in mind because if you're if you want to deal with this stuff and have an opinion about it

You probably should consult these sources because MacArthur himself is telling you if you want to know What I think about this truly you need to look at what

I wrote because this is how he's trying to settle a controversy and I and I agree the written word does have a

More of an authoritative More it carries more weight and you can see that there's the biblical warrant for that, you know people

Then when the Apostles in Christ, they always said it is written You know, it is written that it's the written word that has it carries the weight and so But anyway, so I'm still trying to find them

I'm trying to find the where he says There's a quote in here where he basically says that the heart of the matter is the nature of saving faith.

What is the nature of? Faith and so and And You know a lot of people

Don't even categorize that the issue properly and he he makes a note of that as well

A lot of people don't even realize what the actual issue is at stake but I do agree with respect to what he's saying there that the issue is the nature of saving faith and all of the immediate doctrines that revolve saving faith such as repentance regeneration

You know Assurance sanctification to some extent. This is such a fundamental doctrine that it tends to bleed over everything else

But some those are the more immediate Cardinal doctrines that are affected by by this actually

I just found it so in Chapter 2 I think of the gospel according to the Apostles. It's called the primer on the

Lordship salvation controversy he gives sort of a historical backdrop of how the controversy developed and In a section here called the

Lordship controversy is not a dispute about whether salvation is by faith only or by faith plus works

He says no true Christian would ever suggest that works need to be added to faith in order to secure salvation No one who properly interprets scripture would ever propose that human effort or fleshly works can be meritorious

Worthy of honor or reward from God the Lordship controversy is a disagreement over the nature of true faith

Those who want to eliminate Christ's Lordship from the gospel see faith as a simple trust in a set of truths about Christ Faith as they describe it is merely a personal appropriation of the promises of eternal life

So that's basically what he's saying The that's where he states that the issue is is that's the heart of the matter in other words, so We're not going to get into faith right now we're gonna probably get into faith next time because we kind of want to finish up repentance from since we touched on it last time, but This whole issue of repentance, and you know when we were going back and forth

It's explaining was that repentance is a change of mind Fundamentally at its most basic level

Repentance is a change of mind Anything else after that I would basically say is an outworking or the fruit of repentance that follows

And that's what the word means metanoia right it means change of mind so that being said here's here's one thing that kind of concerned me about MacArthur because I Was a little surprised with what he what he described as or what he defined as repentance so on chapter

On a chapter called the necessity of preaching repentance It's a whole chapter on repentance on a section called repentance in the

Lordship debate He says this repentance is no more a meritorious work than its counterpart faith

It is an inward response genuine repentance Pleads with Lord Pleads with pleads with the

Lord to forgive and deliver from the burden of sin and the fear of judgment and hell It is the attitude of the publican who fearful of even looking towards heaven

Smote his breasts and cried God be versatile to me the sinner Repentance is not merely behavior reform because but because true repentance involves a change of heart and purpose it in ended it

Inevitably, sorry results in a change of behavior. So there he's describing repentance as an inward response, right?

he is saying that a You know, and I don't I guess I don't I don't really disagree with what he said there too much

It's not it's obviously not meritorious. It's a gift from God You know the Apostle Paul does say that clearly and forget which epistle that if God grant it if God perhaps grants them repentance

So that is also a gift in addition to faith but When you know on the following page actually or the following then, you know two pages

He talks about repentance again, and here's what he says here So but he says the section called repentance in the

Bible he says but neither is repentance a solely intellectual issue Surely even

Judas changes mind what he didn't do was turn from his sin and throw himself on the Lord for mercy

Repentance is not just a change of mind. It is a change of heart. It is a spiritual turning a total about -face

Repentance in the context of the new birth means turning from sin to the Savior It is an outward response not external activity, but its fruit will be evident in the in the true believers behavior

So, you know Just a few pages after he says repentance is an inward response now

He's saying it's an outward response. And then he says that You know, it's not just a change of mind.

It's a you know spiritual turning about face. It's a It's a turning from sin.

So, you know It sounds like a blatant contradiction to me. I don't see how you know part of the problem that I'm seeing here and We'll get what you guys think about this but I think what he's doing and I think this is very common because unfortunately this threefold view of faith is is very prevalent and Evangelicalism, but I think what's going on here is that he's creating a psychological dichotomy between simple simple belief

Just simple belief and and sin because what you have here is like When you use these analogies of turning from sin

When you're turning around that sounds like a physical act That's like you have to actually turn around, you know, and you hear a lot of these metaphors being said by people you know, it's not enough to just Believe that the chair is there you have to actually sit on it.

You know if Christ was your parachute You can't just agree or and I'm sorry if Christ is a parachute

Ray Comfort has a famous analogy that he uses, you know, you can't just believe that the parachute will save you

You have to actually put it on The problem with this and I'm thankful for Clark has done amazing work to to clarify

The biblical position on you know, the biblical views of what saving faith actually is If you want if you want to know more about this, please read his book

What faith and saving faith it is an excellent treatise on the on the nature of faith But well,

I'm getting a lot of the material there. Both of those books are combined in the book What is saving faith found in the

Trinity Foundation website, right Carlos both right? so it was it was initially two separate books, but if you if you want to check it out, it's what is saving faith and We would we would definitely agree with that with Clark's perspective and like like you said, hopefully we can get into it next time

You know the Carlos I had to step away because a little situation that was happening outside my house

Did you already explain like the what the threefold? Definition of faith is that the

MacArthur's holding notitious census and fiduciary? No Well, so I mean real quick and we'll get into this next time

But what Carlos is talking about is that MacArthur actually holds which MacArthur washer?

Lawson Most people sprawl most people hold to a three three fold

What would you say it is it's not a distinction but a threefold definition of faith, which includes notitia knowledge a census ascent and fiducia, which is a

Trust trust. Yeah trust. Yeah, and so Our view differs a little bit.

We hold with what? Gordon Clark and John Robbins and guys like Sean Garrity Who all were

Presbyterians? We hold to what they what they would view as as saving faith

So that that's what Carlos is talking about because I wanted to ask you a quick question. So you were saying that His view may it sounded like it may have contradicted and I'm wondering if Because Clark points out that sin is first intellectual and then afterwards it's overt that that sin always starts within the mind and And I actually included that in an article that I wrote

Christianity and logic and I'm wondering if if MacArthur really did contradict himself or it in I mean, you're the one that read the book you have the book with you or is he saying that that First it's inward and then it becomes outward

So so first that the mind is changed to believe in Christ and to just just learning about what

God loves and what God hates and And then that becomes outward later

Is that I mean is there is there a possibility that that might be what he's he's getting at or?

Are you saying that you you really do think that it's a contradiction? Yeah, if it's not a contradiction,

I think it's at least worded very poorly because it he says Initially, he says repentance is an inward response and he doesn't he doesn't qualify that He just says it's an inward response and then in this section

He's saying that it's an it's not just a change of mind It is a change of heart and then he says it is an outward response and that it's not external activity

But its fruit will be evident in the true believers behavior So what I'm what I'm getting at here First of all, there's there's already a problem here when he's saying it is not just a change of mind

It is a change of heart and this is one thing that has been a major problem with with with what is going on in the

Lordship controversy and with how people define faith because When we're talking about the heart in the mind if you look if you do an actual scriptural study of what the heart in the

Mind are you will find more often than not that those terms are synonymous Because what the biblical term for heart what it actually is is it's it's the inward it's your true inward self

It's what you truly believe or who you truly are inside and so when people this is a huge problem in Evangelicalism and even this has massive implications with how you understand faith and even how you share the gospel because what happens is that people tend to create this dichotomy between the head and the heart and That it's it's a false dichotomy because the

Bible doesn't actually make that dichotomy itself There is no dichotomy

Just just some scripture that came to mind In regards that so you're supposed to love the

Lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength In that verse alone. You already have a distinction between the two in addition to that in the parable the sower the the difference between The the first seed and the other of the first soil and the other three is the first world did not understand the main distinction between the last soil and the and the first rays that I understood and Accepted and you can see that that's how

Jesus explains It's a difference other than obviously it bears much fruit 30 50 100 fold

So you have one verse that that says that even though it does treat them synonymously it does

Divide them even in that verse by itself as well as in the parable the soil there being a difference between understanding and accepting

So there's a reason why people End up there, but and it's from the scripture.

Yeah, I know I know that a lot of times there are scriptures that that Suggests that or that they use separate terms in the same verse and or things like that but well at least on the latter thing when

Understanding and Accepting as true. That is our view of faith. That is you in other words what our understanding of faith and the bib what we believe is a biblical teaching is that faith is just a matter of understanding something and accepting it as true and So this third element this fiducia element this trust fiducia, by the way, just etymology etymologically just means faith

So it's all that's basically a tautology and that's why so much confusion erects out of this

You know third element that people try to add into faith but So on the the thing about understanding.

Yeah, it's not enough to understand it. You have to actually agree with it You know, I understand atheism. I understand

Darwinism that doesn't mean I agree with it. So it's not enough to agree with it. You have to also Accept it as true.

You have to acquiesce to it or believe it That's what we would say faith is now for the other verses and I know we're probably not gonna have time to you know to actually get into these passages and exegete them, but When the

Bible uses a lot of terms like, you know sanctify You just quoted that one about your heart soul mind and strength a lot of those terms.

I would say are still synonymous It's it's a the Bible sometimes as a way of using the different terms for being emphatic about the same thing

So heart mind soul, I would say those are basically synonymous even strength to some extent like It's basically saying that you obviously you should love the the

Lord with with your whole self and and there's also certain passages like As to the whole, you know, do you believe whether we are dichotomous in nature or trichotomous?

So do we have just a spirit in a body or do we have a spirit soul in a body because there's a verse that Says, you know that God would sanctify you your hearts.

What does it say your spirit your soul and your but something like that and so people think that well, we have a trichotomous distinction or we're made of three things not just two and so But a lot of that is just a matter of exegesis and kind of getting into the text.

So That's what I would say now that being said though. I think there's an overwhelming

Overwhelming amount of verses that that really strongly support the view that The heart and I'm not saying that there is no distinction.

There is a distinction between the heart and the mind But when the Bible when you when you look at what the

Bible describes the heart and I'm not the only person saying this and neither Is Clark? There's actually a well -known

Old Testament scholar. I forgot his name, but he's he's becoming more liberal. Unfortunately There's an

Old Testament, there's several Old Testament scholars actually and Greek scholars one of them being so what is his name?

Zody I Think it's Zodiac ease. Yeah Spiros Zodiac ease He actually and I don't have it with me, but we're gonna get into more of that in the episode on faith but there's several scholars that that acknowledge this that the heart is

Really who you truly are on the inside and when you look at when the Bible died When you look at the contrast that the

Bible makes it doesn't contrast Keep in mind what I'm saying. It does not contrast the head and the heart it cut

What it contrast is the heart and the lips it contrasts what you profess with what you actually believe on the inside That is what the issue is.

And that is why Christ said these people are honor me with their lips They profess to honor me

But yet their hearts are actually far from me and that is the biblical contrast that we need to be emphasizing

When we're talking about stuff like this, it's not the head in the heart Because the head in the heart that's almost like really biblically speaking

That's actually impossible to do because the heart is come is the includes the the head quote -unquote.

It includes your mind It is your mind and that's why there's verses like out of the heart proceeds all of these wickedness and sins and thoughts

So That's why I think you know this this is

Where he starts kind of confusing things and then he says it's an outward response, but it's not external activity

So now my question is how do you say how can you say that? It's an outward response, but it's not external activity

I mean, what do you mean by that an outward was like What how what falls into that category that doesn't make any sense?

You know, what do you guys think about that? the so if we're not careful because I because I'm gonna

Because I just started thinking of more things in regards to how faith is or works itself out or what it is

But um, but I mean the the if there's an inward change, there's gonna be an outward response I mean, so they're not they're separate in the in the way that they and Like, you know when something occurs, right, but but they're not separate as a whole with with it with saving faith

So for him to say that there's gonna be an outward thing I don't think I think as long as we understand that it's not a or as long as we understand that it's a is a

Necessary byproduct of of saving faith and then that makes sense. That's just logical.

It's going to happen and Then then it's not in contradiction. I think that the the rest of how he describes himself

So we're gonna use we're gonna use all of his written work in this to apply to those sentences like we do with Scripture Then then

I think he's he's staying in line with what he's saying. Yeah. Well, I think the problem is that he is defining

What I see as the fruit of repentance with repentance itself and I think When you say it's an outward response.

The only An outward response is basically a work and that's why I think it's dangerous because when you say it's an outward response

It's either I don't know I don't know what he's referring to like you laying on the floor and snotting or crying or some kind of outward manifestation and this is this is what happens when people try to add this trust element and try to make it some kind of physical reaction or Response to to what really is simple repentance as a change of mind

So I would actually say and I'm not denying that there is no outward response obviously, there's an outward response that follows repentance, but I would not say that it is repentance itself because Even passages with like John the

Baptist saying bear fruit in keeping with repentance Yeah, right the you know

There's an outworking that follows repentance and that's the problem with the no Lordship guys is that they say that that fruit will not necessarily follow well, yes, it absolutely does biblically because repentance is preceded by regeneration and so well, you've got a

When Jesus is talking about the the fig tree that it's on two different occasions But the one

I'm referring to is when The the parable when it hasn't produced any fruit right and then the the landowners gonna cut it down because it's basically taking up space

That that's the It's it's a necessary part of it, right? So, you know,

I wouldn't you know I would say that if I was if I was pointing to leaves I'm pointing to the tree if I'm pointing to the branches I'm pointing to the tree if I'm pointing to the roots and pointing to the tree it's an it's important to understand the difference between What the functions of the leaves and the roots and the branches are but I can just as easily say

I'm pointing to the tree and all three and Not say and not say that the roots are the leaves and I think it's kind of what he's doing so there might have been a more clear way of Saying it, but I don't think he's getting them mixed up.

I just think that he's that like soul mind and strength if we were you gonna use your your

Inclusion of those things as synonymous He might be speaking of them synonymously, even though they do actually have they might may have different functions at times or be different ways yeah,

I think that's the danger here and I think that's what a lot of the the the criticisms have been especially from the reform camp about With dealing with repentance is that when you start defining it as some outward activity or external activity or well

He's saying it's not External out today, but it's an out. So he knows MacArthur is very well aware of the potential problem that that lies with saying that it's outward because he's trying to say that it's

Not external activity, but it's still an outward response because the obvious danger there is that now you're adding something like works or some kind of some kind of but yeah, basically a work something that you do something that you're sort of responding to or doing yourself as as what really should be a result of repentance

So to be fair, we're told to believe and we can't unless it's granted to us, right? So we're

I mean even even in some ways were commanded to works And and but we can't we can't manifest those works apart from God's grace

So like the you know that it was like the conversation with with our

With that with Peter Saying you know Like like if I said if somebody asked me what must

I do to be saved and I said repent be baptized Would you accuse me of workspace salvation? And so so those so what we can

So what we can't do is and I don't think this is what you're doing but what we can't do is hold MacArthur to a higher standard that we hold like Peter and Peter just said that I like repent be baptized.

That's what you must be do to be saved so if he's if he's like if he's kind of going back and forth between In the way, he's explaining in regards to you know, you know it being something that's outward

But you can it could possibly be taken as a workspace salvation Well, I mean Peter's on the chopping block right along with him with repent be baptized being the means of salvation

I mean, unfortunately that passage is one that I think Some some Lutherans go to to say well baptism is a necessary part of salvation and that has a saving element to it

Because Peter used those words To say that's what you must do to be saved and that baptism saves

And so it's a you know, he maybe you know, if we're gonna be that way with with him on this text

I think we're in danger of Criticizing Peter and and how he said people are saved in in the

Bible yeah, and that's exactly why I brought up because there's there's a difference between a

Particular example of yeah when the Apostles preached a certain context in a certain in a specific context

But MacArthur here is trying to make this the universal definition and so that's my that is

I think a lot more dangerous because when you and this is why last time I brought the example of I contrasted the thief and When Peter said to repent and be baptized because if I were if I were in a similar situation today

Let's say that we were on You know in El Paso we live by the Rio Grande So if we were preaching the gospel by the

Rio Grande and People were coming to faith I would say well or somebody asked me what must

I do to be saved? I would say repent and be baptized why because there's a river right here and you just you know

We can do it right away and that I would have no problem saying that in that context even now

Just as the Apostles preached in that context because now if in dealing with the thief on the cross

Jesus did not tell him Obviously For obvious reasons, right?

I mean, there's obvious reasons so I think a lot of this is coming into play with respect to the context and you know and I actually wouldn't recommend getting baptized at the

Rio Grande because it people have drowned there but but it's the point is the point is just to say that um the

The point is just to say that obviously it's the point is obvious I think you know It's it's depends on the context and you have to be very careful when you're trying to make particulars and not to make those a universal

The the defining aspect of it. So that that being so now that being said

I think we've we've kind of sort of covered at least what I wanted to cover about repentance with respect to Now with respect to repentance the reason

I wanted to jump on assurance next was because Assurance, I think is relatively straightforward and I don't think there's too much quarrel at least

I didn't take too much it take too much of an issue with MacArthur's a view of assurance and I think

I think this is where actually we're getting into a very crucial point into Sort of bookend doctrines.

I like to call them bookend doctrines And what I mean by that is that there there are doctrines that sort of Counterbalance each other in the

Bible. Whereas if you because if you and this is brilliant, this is why I think Christianity the the

God of the Bible is just amazing. He is incredibly Amazing and how he has a built -in system of checks and balances in the

Bible So that he actually lets you know He gives you internal checks and balances to let you know that if you stress one thing too much over another

Something else is gonna give why because Christianity is a system of doctrine and Because of that everything is related to itself.

And so it's kind of like it's with anything, right? I mean you you If you can't find a good analogy right now

If you it's if you overemphasize something you have a problem and if you try to take the emphasis or that the tension off Of yeah something you have a problem

They they're they're both there. They both need to stay there And and so it's like it's like that that age -old saying, you know

If it to it to antinomians, you should sound like a legalist and to legal issues. It's not gonna know it's a

There's a there's a there's a tension that's always going to exist there. And I think we we get in trouble when we

When we don't emphasize something enough or when we try to take the tension off something else. Yeah. Yeah, exactly

And I think that's why one of the reasons that it's actually very helpful To have confessions is to also that's another helpful corrective for for helping pastors to Realize hey, you know,

I've been harping on You know Church polity for a long time or church membership for a long time

I need to I need to kind of balance myself out here and start focusing more on Justification or on Christ's mediatorial office or on you know, the end times, you know

That's why you know There's a very helpful practical reason for even having these confessions confessions in the first place because those are all means that we can use

As a church to to kind of help balance keep that balance and not go stray too far into one direction and end up compromising

The in this there's a sense in which there's an equal and opposite reaction When you start talking about these sort of bookend doctrines and one of these doctrines is that of assurance?

Because it actually all of these doctrines I have have bookend, you know counterpoints because it's such a vital doctrine and and God made sure that you know, he's gonna give you warning signs when when you start seeing certain warning signs as to somebody emphasizing a certain thing too much and So I think with respect to assurance,

I think MacArthur did by and large get it, right? I think I think the Lordship view as far as I understand it.

I think is by and large correct as as far as I was able to discern and I think it's unfortunate that one of the criticisms that John Robbins leveled against MacArthur About was it was on assurance and Robbins in his art, you know,

I don't know if I have the article here but I think I do and we can get into it if I I should have it here, but I Think in fact what

I'll do first. I'm gonna quote. I think I'm gonna try to quote this passage here But what I was saying is that I think

I think the Lordship view is basically I think it's by and large correct on assurance and I really this is actually one thing that I really did appreciate on In MacArthur's gospel according to the apostles

I think the assurance I think the chapter on assurance was probably the best chapter it was a very helpful chapter even for me personally because it kind of helped me to to balance out my view of it and So I thought it was good.

And the reason I'm saying this was because he has a chapter. I Forgot what the chapter is called.

Let me find it really quickly it is called a foretaste of glory and In that chapter it's about assurance and he he says that there is a there's there's essentially two extremes that you can fall into There's an extreme that you can fall into by emphasizing too much the the objective promises of God solely for your assurance and There's the other extreme where you try to focus too much on your own works or your own the owner your owner your own lifestyle

Solely for your assurance and he says that there's a happy medium You know, there's a balance between having those two positions to have the proper full biblical

Sense of assurance that the Bible gives us and so I think that's a very helpful way to put it

I don't really I think that's a I think that's a very good summary a very accurate summary of what the Bible teaches on assurance because and John himself and MacArthur has a very good discussion.

He has a he does a very good job of handling the text with assurance John himself presupposes that you you know that you are a believer

Obviously if you're not a believer, you cannot test your works to see if you're saved because you don't even believe the gospel yet So obviously there we have to believe the gospel and believe

God's Word in order to have That measure of assurance that that's a basic thing.

That's like a necessary precondition Before you even start talking about works. So and I think a helpful

Verse that really summarizes. This is when I think it's Paul I forget if he's admonishing

Titus or Timothy to guard his life and his doctrine and that's what we need to do as believers we need to guard both and the the more fundamental

One of those is obviously doctrine because if your doctrine is wrong, then the works don't really matter You need to have make sure that the doctrine is is is in line first and foremost

Before you even get into the discussion about works now once the doctrine is settled once you know, you know

You agree you understand the gospel you agree with it. You're you're good on that the other issue becomes this is where people start to divert on on on and criticize

MacArthur on assurance because how much of our works or or if should we even look to our works for having assurance and people

Say that there's a slippery slope there because if you fall if you start trying to measure your works

You're never gonna have any assurance because you're just relying on your works and I think that's

Completely contrary to what the Bible says, especially, you know places like first John and especially first John That's why first John was written right that first John 513

I think says that he the Apostle John wrote these things so that you may know that you have eternal life

And so one of those things that he points out as sort of a spiritual Checklist they saw a sort of self -evaluation.

Is this I'm gonna read first John 2 3 through 6 and 9 through 10 and 29 Now by this we know that we know him if we keep his commandments.

I Could just stop there and settle the whole thing. I mean that pretty much settles the whole thing right there No, if you say that I couldn't be claiming a heretic.

So just be careful Yeah, right. That's that's what's funny because a lot of people will say like I mean that completely

That totally refutes people who say that you should not be looking at your lifestyle your works you obviously do now

I think the problem that people the concern that people have and I think this is a legitimate concern is that Obviously our works are not our own, you know

They are our own in the sense that we do them But the only reason we do them is because God gives us the ability to do them in the first place and I know you know

Joseph you've pointed out this before and I'm sure all of us probably have already but That's the distinction that you have to make you're not you're not doing these works in order to In order to know that you're saved or to try to make sure that you're saved you're doing these works as an outward form of you know as a gratitude because you want to please

God as your heavenly father and so on and so forth and The the works will not their fruit you're gonna be but you will obviously bear fruit if you are regenerated if you are a new creation in Christ, and if you are a

If you have repented and all of that will just it will naturally follow Because God's Spirit will now be in you and so I'm just gonna keep reading because I mean

There's really nothing you can say against it. Go ahead And so even in that like even in looking to your works for for any assurance

It would never be looking to your works for full assurance I think if you look at your works and your inability to do them perfectly

You will see you'll be constantly reminded of your need for Christ and you will not see your works as sufficient

It's it. I think it's it. I think looking at you know, you'll keep his commandments And even in doing that you'll you'll you won't do it perfectly you'll you'll you know, you'll you have a you can you could pray and that he's a faithful to forgive you of your sins

I Think in doing that it reminds us of our need as well as gives us assurance in the meantime

Yeah, right This isn't this is and there's another internal check and balances in the

Bible because if you say that you have no sin Then you're a liar the first John itself also says that so obviously

And it says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us So if you say you have no sin, you're not saved.

I mean, you're just you don't understand the gospel. You just don't so Obviously, we're still going to sin but the but the that does not deny the fact that we will actively grow in grace and and continually progressively

Be conformed to God's will and laws according to the to the Bible So, all right, so I haven't been talking that much.

I have an issue outside of my house right now with Man there's this huge block party and people are like peeing in people's driveways and so I went out there to confront some people about peeing in My driveway in my neighbor's driveway, this is ridiculous so we're recording this on a

Friday night and so Here's what I'm gonna do. I gotta go sit by my window because now

I'm afraid of retaliation Because I told people not to pee outside So I'm gonna

I'm gonna hand this over to you guys. I'm going to just have to bow out right now and Just make sure we've had people break into cars this last week

And and it's funny because you think I live in a terrible neighborhood And and I really don't like the people around my neighborhood there.

They're really good people There's just this one house and it's a party house. So I'm gonna hand it over to you guys

Carlos Just send me a text. Let me know when you guys wrap things up and I'll have to catch you guys next time, but I'm sorry about that Sure, no problem

Hopefully things get resolved there. Take care of your family. Yeah, I really do because it's what what already happened was a number of people have called the cops and There was some car that was driving up and down with the bass

Super super loud. I was rattling the windows the garage door and And it woke up the baby.

So a lot of neighbors are really upset about that. So anyways, I'll I'll talk to you guys later thanks for doing this and Just the

Carlos just send me a text when you're done. Sure. All right. Okay. All right. So moving carrying on about This thing here so Yeah, you cannot deny that you have that you don't have sin.

You can't say that you don't have sin You you cannot you are not a Christian if you do not think you have sin

So I'm sorry for people who think that Donald Trump is a Christian if he still thinks that he What did he say?

He made a comment about that, right that he doesn't he thinks he doesn't he never asked God for forgiveness He thinks he's fine or something like that We say he doesn't have anything he needs to ask him forgiveness for Yeah But then you know,

I mean that but that's all touches on even in in an actual theological camps. They're bad theology, but they're

The sinless perfectionist camps people like Jesse Morrell and so forth, so We have people that that call themselves

Christians that go out there and do evangelism that that are sinless perfectionist or think that you need to that you can you know,

I thought that just touches on a whole lot of heresies, but You know, they're they'll either Pelagian semi

Pelagian, you know, they they believe you can lose your salvation you know as easily as you lose your car keys, so the

The John John just destroys that the the verb there is if I remember correctly as a present tense

So it's basically almost like as if to say if you say you are not having any sin Then then you're a liar or you call

God a liar So Just yeah Yeah, and I'm just gonna keep reading because it's really that I can't say there's no need to to improve on this so continuing the with the verse

He who says I know him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him

But whoever keeps his word truly the love of God is perfected in him by this we know that we are in him he who says he abides in him ought himself to also to walk just as he walked as He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in darkness until now he who loves his brother

Abides in the light and there is no cause for stumbling in him If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone

Oh that he being Christ that if you know that he that is Christ is righteous You know that everyone who practiced righteousness who practices righteousness is born of him that could not be any plainer

That's plain as day The point here is that you have to look at your works in order to have the full measure of biblical assurance that the

Bible says you should examine yourself by by you know by and so These people who say like we can't we can't rely we shouldn't look to our works and unfortunately, you know,

I was reading there's a very good article in the Trinity Foundation by John Robbins who is now he

I think he he passed away sometime in 2008 I think but He has a very good critique.

He does a very good job a good job of critiquing MacArthur's position and some of his earlier errors when they were still kind of fresh but but I think unfortunately he he kind of he represents the camp that goes a little too far and almost equating assurance with faith itself and that's a big problem because in in whenever you you do that and it's kind of funny because The the the confessions themselves make that explicit distinction they actually say that it's not the same as that assurance is not the same as faith and MacArthur even quotes that in his chapter on assurance.

So Interesting because that that was one of the that that was almost kind of the error

Or at least it gets really close to the air of the the sovereign grace side

The the doctrinal sovereign grace side where they're saying no if you understand these things if you believe these things then you're saved and and if you look to works at all, you know, and so it's almost it's not the same but it's really really close to to the

To the their their air Oh, it's it's it's Unfortunately, if you if you're holding to just faith just faith is the insurance you're heading towards Gnosticism Right, there's there's a very clear bookend counterpoint balance that we're trying to bring out here in the

Bible because that's the reason why James and The Apostle Paul for example have those different emphases because there's different elements that you have to consider when you're talking about and again

We're going back to the whole thing about heart and mind and as opposed to heart and lips because that's the whole issue behind James The entire issue of James is saying if a man says he has faith, but has no works

It's somebody who is professing to believe but they are showing they're betraying themselves by their lack of works

They don't evidence true faith because if they did the work of God would be working in them too and that's not to say it's gonna be a instantly perfect you know, there's there's so many extremes that we can that people have gone into with and as a failure as a result of failing to balance these two pivotal doctrines in the

Bible that I Actually, and there's another extreme to that. There's people who say that if you have no assurance that you're not even saved

So there's a there's there's so many different extremes I remember hearing John Hagee preaching that years ago when

I was still kind of when I actually liked him before, you know But this was before I found out that he wrote a book about Explaining that Jesus was did not come to be the

Messiah But Yeah, there's people like that too who say that if you don't have no assurance and you're not even saved

How can you how can you lack assurance? Well It's actually very Just look at you can look at the testimony the people's lives in the

Bible I mean not everybody has the same Christian experiences and this is what people need to recognize not to make their own

Experience with in their own walk with God the the the end all and be all then I used to do this too when

I Was immature in the faith. I used to think like man if you did not have a radical a exact date and time that you could point to and say look this is

I was a Godless heathen and on but after this day God I was just like black and white night and day completely

Transformed I mean it was more than obvious and I had a similar I had experience like that But that was because I grew up in the

Catholic Church, and I was I was in dark. Excuse me. I was in darkness and so That's that's the reason why not everybody grows up in the same context

I mean there's people who grew up in very sound Christian homes who can't exactly point pinpoint a

When they got saved because they already grew up in that in the faith and they've already been admonished to believe in to and to and to follow in that and in the footsteps of their parents and of the

Bible so I think that that's that definitely is an influencing factor with people get going into Extremes, and I think the confession the westwards the

Westminster confession is very helpful in chapter 18 section 3 It says that this infallible assurance does not so belong to the essence of faith

And MacArthur gives a little historical background about how Calvin He says that Calvin kind of thought that the initial that initially

Assurance is a part of faith because how could you sort of how could you believe that you have eternal life and not you know?

And not think that you're actually and not have assurance of that So you know I guess I wouldn't really

I wouldn't really Disagree with that even though Calvin himself also did say that Belief in the saving faith is believing simply understanding and accepting is true the gospel promises of God, but Well, I mean there's a there's a measure of that even built into how we how we define where works come from right because we?

Do them not as if to save ourselves, but out of a gratefulness well if you're not

If you you know I I think I went through like a something of a dark point relatively early on Because you know

I I went from you know not not what to get into the details of my life before conversion

You know I would look at myself or even mistakes that would make sense then right I Had absolutely no worth and no no value and that was

I would look at myself And I finally got to the point one day where I just decided it's like here Here's you know you know talking to myself.

It's like even if I'm even if I'm not I'm not if I'm not chosen right then then

I have to do everything to glorify God because he's God and So none of this is so basically so that's so none of them

Whether whether or not I am I have to be obedient unto God and and do that and so That was my way of dealing with it at that time

And and I still hold to that. I think everybody should give God glory regardless of what? As what their status is with God because he's

God but um But the that's the you know the

I Did the things because of who not not only what God has done right now only out of gratefulness

But but knowing who God is but the thing is is and this is the comforting part is

I wouldn't know those things had not God made me able to Through the guiding of the Holy Spirit, and that way

I have assurance again And so it's a it's interesting how it plays out and everybody's

Heart or mind or however you want to want to put those It's because like you were saying in a moment ago your experiences and dealing with the struggles with those things are not mine right

The and my my experiences with that and the way I dealt with it internally is not the litmus test for other people's salvation or sanctification

Yeah, and yeah, it's very common especially with evangelicals like conservative evangelicals like even

Todd Friel I remember I have his um I have some of his his DVDs and his some of the stuff that he he he has like a like a collection of mp3 recordings where he of him discussing the gospel or sharing the gospel with others and in one of those encounters he actually he's he's challenging a

Person a professing believer, and he says can you point to the exact date and time when you believe?

I mean you remember being in a car accident. I mean, how could you not remember the day that God saved you you know and so and maybe in that context it might have been appropriate because she was a very like I Think the the person he was talking to really did not

Look like she she had a a very She had a very unbiblical understanding from what it seemed of being a

Christian, but we have to be careful not to do that No, I just want to say there's a way that I say that so then that way

I can say that what I think is true and not necessarily Judge somebody's eternity is the way

I say it is by all evidences. They are not saved so by all evidence I have they have no salvation.

They don't know Christ It's probably the easiest way to put that without just putting them in the box for God Yeah, I mean

Yeah, right. I think that that can be good I mean, but if I know somebody and if I know somebody's not saved

I don't know, you know, they're not safe like there's no saying it's it's a matter of it's a matter of yeah you have to be careful about how much you actually know the person and things like that and At least from from it was pretty clear that she was not a believer based on what her response wasn't things like that But yeah, and people

The Bible is less forgiving and then we are in regards to declaring somebody not a believer. Oh, yeah, right

We absolutely we could actually make these distinctions and point these things out with with confidence because what the

Bible teaches a Christian is But our but our our culture You know, it's almost like not just on a church level, but but in general is like ecumenical and inclusive in nature

It's so much so that if a person speaks out to us to another person's salvation even if it's from a point of concern there automatically condemned as someone who is

Playing God and as the judge even though all you would have to do is point to Scripture and to say this is what Scripture says about these people and and this is what these people do and That person is doing what these people do.

So why are we confused about this? So it's really interesting. It's a whole different topic Precisely, you know, yeah, it's a different topic but it's it's very relevant to this discussion because you also get into the question about Examining ourselves and if we're even able to do that and can we do that properly, you know?

because I know a lot of people will say it's this is a very common sort of Theological true,

I don't know what you call it like a like a truism or a What do you call those things like a maxim or a proverb basically?

We people say I can't judge people's hearts and it's like well Honestly, I don't think that's biblical because You can judge people's hearts by their works by their fruit and that's what the

Bible says out of the heart proceeds Wicked, you know, though Out of that out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks

Exactly. So, you know and that's why the Christ and the Apostles did this repeatedly

They they affirmed they without hesitation They affirmed believers as believers and they and they affirmed

Unbelievers as unbelievers they had no problem labeling labeling them as such because the Bible give us a gives us a clear criteria for knowing and Judging whether he's a true believer.

Otherwise, you couldn't even follow Certain commands like marrying a believer in order to marry a believer.

You have to judge them to be a believer And well, actually, I think you know done though or culturally what we've done to deal with that is we've lowered the bar

So You know, we know we They married a believer, but but by what evidences are we are we saying that you know, like that, you know

It works both ways. There's evidence is for and against positive and negative For faith, there's ones that work like if I you know, if you walk in darkness being the negative

You know, you'll keep his commandments is the positive and this in this works itself all the way throughout, you know

Jesus said why do you call me Lord and not do what I say or you know not all who cry Lord Lord wonder into the kingdom of heaven but those who do the will of my father and then calls the ones who don't come in lawless and so and so you have you have these on both sides and what we tend to do and I think even especially in our culture with that is is we just focus on as long as they're not doing the negative ones and they say they believe they're a

Christian And then that's how and that's that and we're not willing to apply all of scripture to it and out of maybe a fear but but I think that that is a

In some ways, I think it's sinful it's just but it's But man, I think or you know, it's like people don't want to you know, it's the tension, right?

People want to reduce the tension. They don't want to have to deal with the tension of making a mistake there but I've always

Advocative I'd rather Be overly cautious in regards to my understanding of somebody else actually being saved

Than under cautious because if I'm under cautious and don't respond then they go to you know not as if it's up to me, right, but uh, but But we still live in in this world and have to make decisions so if it you know, if I don't say anything they go to hell and if I And if I do say something and they're saved they'll receive it.

Well, um, because that's what the Bible says That's what the Bible says. The Bible says I'll forgive you. I love you and so I believe the

Bible and I'm gonna go correct them and say this is what the Bible says about this and if they Love God and his commandments, they'll they'll receive it.

Well, or and if they don't right away, they'll eventually forgive me You know, maybe that's my face.

Maybe I'll never see it But in their heart they will and because that's what the scripture says, but we don't ever approach people with that And I think it's wrong

Yeah, absolutely and you know, I wanna I'm gonna read I was looking for this quote and I found it

So I'm gonna read this from John Robbins his article On the gospel according to John MacArthur because I think this is going to help

Us to sort of like sum all of this up. So he says on page 190 I think is

I think he's quoting the gospel according to Jesus the original one on page 190

MacArthur attacks Zane Hodges assertion that the assurance of the believer rests squarely on the direct promises of God in Which this offer of salvation is made and nothing else it follows from this says

MacArthur that the assertion that a believer must find his assurance in his works is a grave and fundamental theological error

So and then the end of quote MacArthur wants us to base our assurance on our works

But that is not the error of but is that not the error of those condemned to hell in Matthew 7 to 21

This is this is Robbins critiquing MacArthur They did not

Look to the promise of salvation They did not appeal to the facts of 1st Corinthians 15 and they appeal to their works for their assurance of salvation

And they were very assured the record suggests that they were dumbfounded when Christ commanded them to depart to everlasting punishment

Furthermore if one is candid he can never be assured by looking at his works for they are filthy rags We are all unprofitable servants

Luther realized this and the Reformation was born Jesus Christ alone is our righteousness and the believers assurance of salvation comes from Christ's righteousness alone and the promises of God Not from the believers works again

The Westminster Confession states the biblical position on assurance the assurance of faith is founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation the inward evidence of Those graces unto which these promises are made the testimony of the spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God Furthermore says the confession the duties of obedience are not the ground of our assurance, but the proper fruits of assurance

MacArthur gets the relationship between works and assurance backward just as he gets the relationship between faith and works backward

Whatever good works Christians do they do because they are they are already assured not in order to be assured.

So This is what I was referring to with Robbins and how unfortunately it sounds like he's equating

Assurance with faith here because he's saying that look the reason these people in Matthew 7 were condemned was because they they were using their own works as assurance of their salvation, but the problem there is that they were using their works as Righteousness as self -righteousness and that's not why

We have obviously that's not what saves us What saves us is is faith alone in Christ alone and in the promises of God?

But the problem and even the I think unfortunately he just doesn't give a balanced view of the confession even and he has he was a

Presbyterian and but I think To I mean, so they weren't looking to There I mean,

I think you said it. I'm gonna say maybe just a little bit differently They weren't looking to their to their faith.

I'm sorry to their works as a as a assurance for salvation, but as a means to it Yes, exactly.

Exactly. Well, yeah, and because of that those means they were assured But they were assured by the wrong means

Yeah, right. That's a that's a good point Yeah and I think unfortunately he conflated that and kind of ran with it and he even kind of ignores the

The very clear not just biblical distinction, but doctrinal distinction that the Westminster Confession makes that I just read that Infallible assurance does not so belong to the essence of faith

So we have to distinguish assurance from faith and because they are not the same

That is also why the Bible clearly commands us to in order to have assurance we have to look at our works

We the passages are blatantly clear. You cannot trust in the promises of God alone

In order to have insurance we trust in the promises of God alone in the gospel alone for faith to be saved

But in order to have assurance We have to look at our lifestyle and the pattern of our lifestyle to see if God is really working in our lives

It's not to know that it's not so that we can justify ourselves Obviously, that's a fundamental distinction but it's also an important distinction because you inevitably have to look at your works at your lifestyle to have the full biblical assurance that the

Bible commands us to have and And and it's a blessing that not unfortunately not all Christians enjoy this, you know, even in the

Bible you see this they're not everybody had the same Christian experience or the same experience, you know, like Elijah rode in chariots of fire to heaven, you know

But how did Jeremiah go on doing that? Yeah Yeah But you know, but Jeremiah he he died and just but he died despondent

I mean the guy was pretty depressed the whole time You know, it's just unfortunate that like, you know, we have to be careful with experiences and not to judge

Ours is the soul, you know, yeah, correct one. Yeah, go ahead. Yes. I'm 51 12, you know restored to me the joy of your salvation

There's there's a you know Exactly. Give me a willing spirit It's a it's a credit

God for having having been, you know been disobedient that God would forgive him and give him that that that that feeling, you know some of that being there being that assurance that that That the heart that he that he desires to have that he knows he can't accomplish on his own and he knows he needs to Cry out to God for and this is this is a believer.

This is David Writing the Psalms guided by the Holy Spirit not the first one. He wrote

That that that is that is crying out in this way and so it's a it's kind of interesting because like, you know, it's a that's where You know that having a having a strong strong understanding of a grasp of all of Scripture Realizing that the the

New Testament is refining the the arguments made in the old and a lot of ways or or just reusing them

To know what all of Scripture has to say about this verse to really understand it and and where people go off track because they

May be heavy in one area and then deficit in the other and not not just an emphasis

But but the root of that problem isn't just the emphasis. It's the understanding Meaning based on the imbalance

Grasp of the whole of Scripture Yeah Right.

I think this is a good way to sum this up and then I want to conclude with talking a little bit about rewards, but It's I really do like the way

MacArthur his chat that's a very good chapter I would I Want to kind of just sum it up the way he did.

There's a subjective aspect of Assurance and there's an objective aspect because you have to examine yourself and in order to examine yourself you have to obviously

Look at yourself your lifestyle your life and your doctrine not just your doctrine. The other thing is that Even the and I want to quote this as well even the canons of Dort.

This is this is a Dutch reformed traditional Confession that That in the first head article 12

It says this about assurance the elect in due time though in various degrees and in different measures

Attained the assurance of this eternal of this their eternal and unchangeable election Not by inquisitively prying into the secret and deep things of God But by observing in themselves with a spiritual joy and holy pleasure the infallible fruits of election pointed out in the

Word of God such as a true faith in Christ a Filial fear a godly sorrow for sin a hungering and thirsting after righteousness, etc

So even even that even the reformed the reformed tradition does acknowledge that you have to there is an inward retrospection and an inward examination of Your character and of your lifestyle.

It's it's inevitable. You have to do that in order to be fully assured biblically and So That being said now

With Because this ties into something very important that Robbins also pointed out here that I'm gonna take issue with as well

He says furthermore if one is candid he can never be assured by looking at his works for they are filthy rags

We are all unprofitable servants Luther realizes and the Reformation was born This is a another

Of this just opens a can of worms into a whole nother book end doctrine set of doctrines because now we're talking about But the sinner and Saint this dichotomy, right?

There's the simul justos a peccator, which means simultaneously just and a sinner and so You have the very strong element in the reformed tradition

Unfortunately with respect to looking at our works as as Unprofitable and as filthy rags because unfortunately those passages are not talking about unbelievers.

I mean believers are talking about unbelievers all of their righteous deeds are filthy rags because they don't

Believe they have not been regenerated and therefore everything they do is filthy because they themselves are polluted and corrupt from sin by by Adams fallen and nature and so This is very and and actually on Facebook this kind of some people

Level this criticism against me that I'm too much some you know and I've heard this more than once that I'm being too much of a performance based

Christian and things like that and you see this in people like totally in chivijan as well and this characterizes

Lutheran as a whole as in as well because in The Lutheran tradition, it's basically very pessimistic about the

Christian walk the Christian life It has a very pessimistic outlook because we're just a bunch of filthy wretched sinners and all we do is filthy rags and the only righteousness that we have is a righteousness of Christ and That causes a very dangerous lack of balance between these pivotal again an extremely important counterpoint doctrines what's it almost it almost lends to if not if not if not careful to a form of antinomian ism because the

Expectation is so low I mean you you'd almost you have to Ignore that part on sermon on the mount where he says practice your righteousness before others so that you they may give glory to God Right so so I mean it's a

So so it takes away the need to do the good things and and the and the weight of doing the bad things

By saying all the things you do are bad when Jesus says go and do the good things You know and in that passage he's not making it explicit that he is the means in which you do those things

But but that still being the command and so we can do Righteous deeds he were expected to before others to so that God may get glory

But but obviously that comes only from faith to whom or from whom which

Christ is the author and perfecter of so Yeah, you know and I want to We're gonna start wrapping it up here

But I want to Rick I would highly I want everybody all of our listeners to do this And I hope that I really really recommend that everybody do this

Listen to a sermon by Paul Washer called having too low of you of regeneration that sermon will change your life if you've kind of if you've kind of have this view of You know,

I'm just a wretched sinner I can never do anything, you know I'm all my works are filthy rags and another thing to do is read read

What is his name? I forgot his name, but the book is called justification and regeneration It's do you know his name?

I forget his name It's a gosh who is it by I can't remember the name but Yes, yes

Charles lighter, right That's an excellent book on that topic and he has an exposition of Romans 7 as well in an appendix

That I also highly recommend that you check out. He has also sermons on on, you know expository

Explanation of Romans 7 because I actually take the view that Romans 7 is not about believers

MacArthur does take the view that it's about believers, but I would say that it's a pre conversion Experience that he's describing

We should we should I'm to disagree on that at some point that would be fun. Yeah But the the point the point being is that when we are

Regenerated we are actually regenerated. We are no longer filthy sinners who produce filthy rags we are

Transformed we are new creations in Christ and we are washed and regenerated For you to say that you're that you just have filthy rags and that see this is this is where the balancing point comes in in the

Bible because God you're you're actually undermining God's power because if you say all my works are filthy rags

I'm just a wretched sinner Then you are completely undermining the work that God has already done in you if you are truly saved

Because if you are truly saved then you will produce good fruit because God has made you a good tree

And so you cannot say that you you're there's a very sharp We were talking about because you

I mean you've got like Paul say, you know, you know when he talks when he uses in the present tense You know

You know being the chief of sinners You know be of sinners of which I am present tense chief

And he's talking about this as he's writing, you know We and we know he's a believer at that time and so it's the tension on both sides of it, you know

There's a we you know And even in first John if you say you you have no sin if you say you are not having sin

Then here then you can't got a liar and so Are we do we still sin are we still sinners in so much that we sin, you know being defined by that that part of it

Yeah, of course because we don't stop sinning Until we get to glory are we regenerate are we expected to do good work?

Should we not be sinning as much or should we be moving in the right direction? Absolutely because it's what regeneration causes

And and and unfortunately it well on this side of glory both are true and we would just wish it was one of them.

Yeah This is opening so many more issues that I Yeah, you know with this now we're getting into really a

Natural out outward flow of what these issues stem from because we're getting into Romans 7

We're getting into the Christian life. We're getting into our nature and how we should view ourselves as believers and you know,

I'm gonna do this because If you see what the Bible says about things like this

I'm gonna read some verses from from I'm gonna read here second John 1 for it says

I was very glad to find some of your children walking in truth Just as we have received the commandment to do from the

Father So right there John flatly said

That he was rejoicing because believers are walking in the truth just as they were commanded from the Father So they were actually obeying

God's commands. I Have a news flash for you people who think that all you you're just a regis center

You can actually if you truly are saved you can actually keep God's commands Not perfectly.

I'm not saying that you can keep them perfectly and completely and and and perpetually Okay, but you can actually since because you have been transformed you have been given the ability the desire and the ability to actually begin to fulfill

God's will and God's commands and for you to deny that is you are actually denying and undermining

God himself and the power that got that God has When he transforms a sinner into a saint

My my only other parting thought with folks that you know on this issue

Oh Let me let me finish reading a few more verses that I have here third John 1 and 4 I have no greater joy than this then to hear my of my children walking in the truth again

And 1st Peter 1 13 through 16 Therefore prepare your minds for action keep sober in spirit fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ as Obedient children do not be conformed to the form of lust which were yours in your ignorance

But like the Holy One who called you be holy also in all your behavior because it is written

You shall be holy for I am holy so Again and I wanted to bring this up because This is the biblical picture that God gives of a saint.

What is what we it's not just a Forensic transfer or a forensic transfer of righteousness that we receive from Christ.

That is what saves us. But also there is an actual Transformation that takes place which is called regeneration.

And so you're undermining regeneration when you say that you cannot Obey God's law at all or that all your works are filthy rags because they're not

You know, there's a famous saying that is attributed to Luther for saying that we're just snow -covered dung and I'm sorry

But that's not true. We are not just covered with the snow of quite of Christ pure white righteousness

God has washed us so that we are no longer covered in dung We are transformed as saints and if you look at the biblical emphasis

Just look at the biblical emphasis it is overly emphatic if we're gonna overemphasize it something we should overemphasize this

That we are not Sinners anymore. God remembers our sins no more and if you and all throughout the

Bible You will see far more the emphasis on being the fact that we have Much more now we have received forgiveness from God.

We are growing in grace. We are Transformed renewed washed regenerated all of those things and Not only that even in the passages you quoted that people love to quote to say that I'm the chief of sinners

Paul said that on the present tense, but even then if you look at that passage He was saying that apart obviously apart from Christ He is the chief of sinners because we all are we're all sinners apart from Christ But what does he say before both before and after that verse he sandwiches that verse by saying but I received mercy past tense

Okay, and before and after the emphasis the biblical emphasis is always on the fact that you okay

You were a sinner now. You're a saint now You can obey therefore obey to the best of your abilities grow in sanctification and so on and so forth

So that's my parting word Joseph you're concluding thoughts I'm not

I'm not gonna take the opportunity to get the last word on that even though We we I think we part ways on that on the some of the interpretation there, which is fine for now

That but but I think that the You know, if nothing else we've done a good job of Showing one of the reasons why at least in modern evangelical

America How How it blew up so much that he wrote this first book

The gospel according to Jesus and that the lordship salvation although not, you know perfect work because it's not the scripture it was it was a

It was the why it was so impactful And because of what it touched on and the implications are from everything else

You know the the idea of you know, primary and secondary doctrines when we realize that all secondary doctrines touch primary doctrines and so it's a

It's a it's interesting I think it's a it's it's a worthwhile endeavor to work through it regardless of what your stance is on it regardless of whether or not you think it's necessary because you know for You know the some of the people they would say well, you know, it's not a reformed topic

Well topic It's a topic that that the Apostles fought with And first John being a really good example of it.

Although it's taken different names throughout history. So I know I just think it's a it's

I'm glad that we you know It's unfortunate the the person that we started the conversation with and why it's covered up the way it did

But I think it's very it's a it's a fruitful Endeavor to to work through the

I mean what even what how MacArthur kind of broke it down the the actual Nature of saving faith

I think that that we should we should all wrestle with I think we should we should get to understand it better Not just so we can know things more but appreciate

The gift that God has given us That we couldn't have accomplished on our own. So I And I fear the time you spent going through The gospel according to the

Apostles. I was I was unable to get my hands on a copy, but eat it before we spoke because I would have liked to but Well, we could have this conversation all over again possibly when the gospel according to Paul comes out so We'll see how that works itself out

Yeah, definitely this this is a very very relevant right now It's very much being brought to the forefront once again

And so and you completely ruined my conclusion by saying that you disagreed I I thought you were gonna

I actually thought you weren't gonna take issue with what I said But no, that's that's definitely gonna be the subject for another discussion

I know that I didn't really do I didn't really get the chance to kind of explain a lot of what I said, but Topic I don't think that you're that you're that you're horrible for picking the other side of that I just think that both of us think the other person misunderstands it which is fine

And that's okay. Yeah, I Will I will just say this that you know?

What I what I and I don't think you'll disagree with this So maybe this is a better way to conclude But but this is important point that I wanted to make when the

Bible describes us as believers It describes us as God's children Now you have kids

I have kids How when we view our kids

Excuse me. So when we do you do you take pleasure when your kids obey you?

Of course I do of course Obviously, right? Yeah, that's not that's the goes without saying

I get I'm delighted when my when my children obey me Now what happens when they disobey you does that displease you yeah, and I punish them just like it's exactly

Exactly then that is exactly how God wants us to view his relationship with him just as we feel delighted and how we take pleasure when our children obey us and Just as we get

Fallen to have a fatherly displeasure that the thing that the confession says that uses that terminology we can fall into God's fatherly displeasure meaning that he will discipline in and Rebuke us because if he doesn't then that means that we're actually not his we're bastards.

We're spiritual bastards still Meaning that we are Yeah, exactly

Correct what I said because I basically said I disagree with you. Let me let me clarify I don't think we disagree at all on the implications of being adopted as as children of God Even a little bit and I don't think we did

I think that I really like what you had to say about what Luther said in regards to I don't I don't think that we're just a

Snow -covered dump. I don't think we disagree on any of those things I was really just talking specifically about where you landed on with that specific piece of text

Not about the overall. Yeah That's what I make that clear. No, I know.

Yeah So we're gonna there's a lot more time that we need to dedicate to flesh all of this stuff out

Yeah, and I I think we covered a lot of ground here and I hope that it was beneficial for everyone listening

Again, I recommend people to read read the sources read John Robbins's article the gospel according to John MacArthur read listen to Paul Washer sermon on just on having to go a view of regeneration and And read

Charles Leiter's book justification regeneration that's a lot of homework, but it will be well worth your time because this has so many consequences for your view as for us as believers and But so we thank you, please keep

Everything I just lost my train of thought You know, so So if you if you have any feedback you want to give to us

Email us and and when I finish talking Carlos will tell you what it is because I forgot the keep

Gary in your prayers because he had he had some family stuff that he was that he was dealing with and and please just just keep us in your prayers as we're as we're doing this because all of this is for the glory of God and We want to do that in all these things

What's the email exactly? Yeah, absolutely. Yes Semper dot referendum radio at gmail .com.