July 20, 2004

Technical Difficulties, Heat, and Power Outages in Phoenix

I'm casting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1.

But now with today's topic here is James white. Well, and good morning. Welcome to the dividing line. I hope I'm here That sounded bad. We've got some sort of technical difficulty going on. There's way what what what what what what but hey, you know That's that's how digital things work.

We don't know why but then again we don't know why the website's not working right at the moment either and Just a word of warning. We could simply disappear at any point in time From any number of things actually given how we started here but we have been informed by the powers that be here in the Phoenix area that there is a very high probability of rolling blackouts today and Some of you may recall a few weeks ago last time we did a dividing line we mentioned at that time that there had been a fire at one of the major substations on July 4th and a major major major power transformer there had burned and That so they had found replacement, but it'd be like next year Before it's installed or something.

Don't ask me how anything takes a year to do like that I I do not understand that particular concept but that's what they said and So that was putting a tax on things has nothing to do with sunspots and then Last night early this morning.

There was a smaller fire at another substation and That has only added to the difficulties and one of the two major power companies here in Phoenix said that we were at The red zone by 8 a .m.. This morning it is 11 a .m..

Here in Phoenix, and it's 106 degrees with The dew point is at oh, it's only 58 degrees. So that's not too bad. Oh, but it's a hundred and seven so Anyway, it's it's a little bit on the sticky side for us.

Anyhow, the monsoon is is taking place and it's going to be a hundred and ten degrees 110 111 degrees today and So they are expecting the possibility of rolling blackouts and so at any point in time all of a sudden it could become very quiet and So if that happens it happens actually think our battery backup would allow us to go up there.

It went see you later everybody something along those lines, but that's about the extent of What would take place so hey if we get the whole hour in that's fine if you were thinking of calling today at?

8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 Then you might want to do that earlier rather than later because the longer that you wait the less the greater the chance that we're all of a sudden going to go poof and Disappear so this first summer.

It's ever happened. I think I remember once There was a talk about the possibility of brownouts when it was looking to be like 117 or something. This valley has just grown way way way too fast. That's just that's just all there is to it.

I think they said that we are our total capacity right now is 9 ,800 megawatts at any one given time and That we're pushing 99 of that in these these summer afternoons here in Phoenix. And of course you know the rest of the year.

It's no big deal the rest of the year. You know especially during the winter when everybody else is you know sucking down fuel oil and stuff like that. You know we're we're getting down into the upper 40s at night, and they you know 72 during the day.

But you know it's no big deal so anyhow. What is with this guy in the sunspots has nothing to do with sunspots somebody slap that person silly? I don't you know the strange odd fellow there anyhow 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 good to be back was gone last week.

Teaching in San Francisco, and it was very very nice there. Beautiful area just absolutely filled with leftist liberal wackos all their. It's to it. It's just the bumper stickers that I saw out there just frightening.

I mean, I think if Fidel Castro sailed into San Francisco Bay. He'd be greeted as a liberator. It's just Man, whoo that is that is just odd. Very very odd. I think if World War two were to happen again The Japanese wouldn't have to invade there.

They would be welcomed with with you know Open arms, it's just oh yeah, just very very odd, but anyway very pretty just strange politics in that that area and So we're done with with that and in fact I I don't I Think there might be one Thursday in August that we might not be doing a program.

But then it's not till September. I started doing a traveling again and up until the debate in early November and the crews and stuff I Don't think that I'll be gone more than just a couple days. I've got a lot of call I'd love call all traveling to do Toronto.

The Dallas area Edmond, Oklahoma Pittsburgh area Pennsylvania area next month doing a lot of traveling Chicago, but just for one or two days at a time, maybe three days at a time not at the big long stuff and so anyhow.

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. If you were looking at the blog you have found out yes, we know that the the websites having difficulties and that's because we're cheap and We split things up between two different servers and so half the websites working and half website isn't the graphics are not working the text is and We do that quite simply to In essence even out the load and it's it's cheaper basically is what it is and the cheap site ain't working quite right today.

So the graphics don't show up and that makes it look really goofy, but you know We like to make a dime scream before it leaves our fingers and so that's sometimes the result of that but if you looked at the blog and you can still read the blog it just is surrounded by odd-looking things and You know, that's that's life, but if you read the blog then you know that we now have you know we should start this since some since somebody wants to.

The Index Prohibitorium and the Problem of Reformed Catholic Readings

That's the Sunspot guy, I know the Sunspot guy at Minnesota wants to talk about things that's great. We can just wait the Sunspot, you know warms my head or something like that and then we'll take the call.

We should start the index of prohibited books. That's what we should do since since some folks are saying we already have one then I think it would be a good idea to start the the index of prohibited books that is the index prohibitorium and I Missed you know, people are gonna accuse you of having one you might as well do that and I was let me see here.

Did you do D? Mm-hmm. Oh now we've got stuff on the real presence and stuff there. Wow, there's been all sorts of stuff that was thrown up there since uh, oh. It's even a response to me. Look at that.

Hadn't even looked this morning. There it is, I guess this means That all of CS Lewis's books go on the Alpha and Omega ministries banned book list. In Latin, that would be index prohibitorium a list that from beginning to end is filled with heretical turned to and fro wind of doctrine.

Wishy-washy nus don't forget to include the relevant videos as well. I mean after all if we can't see some idea of sola gratia in Roman Catholic doctrine. Even though Benjamin Warfield had no problem seeing it.

Well, you know, the problem is Benjamin Warfield didn't see it and I've been glad to link to to David King's fine Demonstration from the writings of Warfield that some reformed Catholics as they call themselves Can only read certain sections of books and not entire sections of books so as to accurately represent people.

Warfield's statements concerning the Roman Catholic Sacerdotalism are very very clear. But we should start we should start one the Alpha Omega ministries banned books list. I'd like to see what's on it currently.

I've never heard of it personally, but may we can put the BB Warfield on there even though I love Warfield and. And in fact, you know Warfield. I was pretty amazed that any of these reformed Catholics folks even touched him.

I mean, it's sort of like the Jehovah's Witnesses trying to quote from Ignatius on the deity of Christ. It's just not something you'd expect it to have happened because Ignatius was so clear in teaching The deity of Christ and Warfield has taken some real hits, I mean he was very much a non Sacerdotalist and he he has some quotes that I've seen some of these reformed Catholics take shots at because He he in essence says that mere human actions do not convey grace that grace is free and so on so forth and.

So these high church folks have some problems of Warfield, but hey, you know he was talking about how Roman Catholics and Protestants together are super naturalists and and you can just take this one little section from ignore everything else he said about sassadotalism and and Rome's view of grace and things like that and Now now he's on their side.

It's It's it's great. I'll have to go back and read this. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do that's that's interesting the gospel includes doctrine. But it is not only doctrine in the teaching of second John reference here is quite clear the teaching about who Christ is.

Not something like forensic justification. Oh, yay. Well folks there. We've got it. We've I've just learned Thanks to Lagos Kevin Johnson has just informed us that the promise in second John that the truth will always be with us.

Does not include What justifications it doesn't include whether we stand before God? Justified solely Through the work of another that it is an imputed righteousness that is ours a seamless robe of righteousness that hymn writers have written about for centuries now and has been the Joy of our lives and the joy of our peace with God and things like that.

We've just learned News news flash just now we just learned that the truth That abides with us the promise of the truth in the church only has to do with Christological and Trinitarian issues it does not have to do with the gospel.

We we do not have the promise any longer in In the in the Bible that we will know what the gospel is evidently the truth the gospel can be lost. Well there it is folks you heard it here first on the divine line.

We've brought you this breaking news. I just discovered this as I'm as I'm looking at this blog here that and it and Silly me to think that the truth would include The the greatest work of the Trinity.

I mean the the the greatest way in which God is in the triune fashion glorifying himself Father Son and Holy Spirit in Redeeming a people unto himself. How silly was it for me to think that the truth the gospel would be a part of the truth that will?

Abide in the church forever. I should have realized Having read these Reformed Catholics that it's only Trinitarian theology. We can be absolutely certain about. That's why you can get rid of the Mormons even though they baptize the name the Father Son Holy Spirit the gospel stuff has to be A lot we have to be able to have it so broad that you can have Rome's Indulgences and purgatory and prayers for the dead and we need to have NT rights monochromatic righteousness of God view and I guess we can still allow for a few the solas.

But you see the gospel has to be so unknowable so so fluffy so vague and foggy. That we can have the big ecumenical tent of Trinitarians as long as our Trinitarians We don't want any non non Trinitarians need not apply, okay?

But I'm so glad to have just discovered. I mean, I just found this out as I was sitting here. And so I am very thankful to Kevin Johnson for informing us That only a part of God's truth evidently the only the only important part.

I guess the gospel part is not important it can be lost and We we won't know we won't know that and so there it is. Reading reading directly here. The gospel includes doctrine. But it is not only doctrine and the teaching of second John referenced here is quite clear the teaching about who Christ is not something like Forensic justification well there you go you heard it here first.

I don't remember saying that John was addressing forensic justification, but the very idea That that is not a part of the truth that will abide in the church even when the Apostle Paul himself Two times uses the phrase the truth the gospel so that the truth of the gospel would abide with you in Galatians chapter 2.

Evidently we just we just now discovered and have now brought to you our dear listeners the the reality of the fact that whether whether we are justified and hence stand before God solely in The righteousness of Jesus Christ or whether we have to do covenant works of faithfulness So as to only experience a future vindication.

These things of just now we've just now discovered Our unknown it's it's a matter of opinion. It's one opinion versus another pain. That's why we need to be so ecumenically minded. That's why we need to be so wide open in In allowing all these different perspectives is because that element of the truth.

Maybe it's not an important element of truth not a definitive element of truth. Can be lost there is there is the news? For the day I Don't have words. I Just don't have words. It is truly amazing. I'm I'm working on it's turning into an article I suppose I should break it up on Galatians chapter 5.

And what Paul said there it is. I'm gonna read a quote from here John Owen because it this is in the article but I'll I'll read it right now and John Owen in in his biblical theology Wrote these words now.

It is no easy task to state just what the actual viewpoint of these men is on the value and perfection of the Bible. Not only do they contradict each other and all Babylon most foolishly and spitefully and explaining their own thoughts and opinions but also they to a man play and toy with words and their meanings and definitions and They invent totally new and unheard of expressions in order to impress or over all unlearned men.

The result is that there is little left as a residue of firm meaning Which a sound intellect might grapple with it is far easier to overthrow their opinions than to understand them in the first place.

In fact once the layers of tricks and deceit are peeled away and the remainder is set forth in plain daylight and Unornamented then it will at once be seen to be so shameful so disgraceful as to be immediately Self-destructive in the minds of any who are not equally incorrigibly wicked themselves.

This is because their teachings are deliberately stitched and patched together. So as to deceive They can mean either anything at all or nothing at all at will and their whole skill and art lies in speaking so laboriously and convolutedly as to prevent all possibility of the accident of being understood.

John Owen biblical theology. That's from 1994 pages 821 through 822 now. You might say well, who is that? You know who is? You know, who's he referring to. Well, you know, it applies the modern situation that's why I was quoting it applies to the modern situation and the The fact that there are so many today who simply won't allow language to have its normal meaning and they play all sorts of philosophical games and When you demonstrate that they're not allowing language to have its normal meaning.

They will then accuse you of all sorts of things and and generally say well You're just you're just not smart enough to understand what I'm saying. That's a real common one. There's a link on the website right now on the blog that will give you a good example of that in point of fact seems like everybody on the phone today wants to talk about the same subject and It's not a subject that I'm currently studying.

So this could be brief. So, well, I guess we'll go ahead and take our phone calls eight seven seven seven five three thirty three Forty-one on this a hot hot day here in in Phoenix and just just hoping that we make it through here before all the lights go out and Then it's going to get hotter and hotter.

You just sort of lay down and I'm gonna kick the next person out of the channel Who says sunspots, I'm just going to in fact, I just did I just kick somebody out for saying sunspots, and so I'm gonna put a a script in and When anyone types sunspots, they will be kicked from the channel.

Just make that a a new rule there okay, let's go ahead and start with our phone calls and let's go up to my home state and Talk with Bob. Hello, Bob. Hello Bob one time for Bob two time for Bob. Three times Rob.

I guess Bob's no longer there. So let's move on to Josh in Casa Grande's Josh around okay, we do not have any phone callers right now, I guess they all hung up and.

Perseverance, Regeneration, and the Order of Salvation

So. Hello. Oh Okay, well.

I Don't ask me. I gave a plenty of plenty of warning that I was going to take a seat home cows.

So I don't know what's going on. Hey, we left for a week and everything fell apart. Evidently. Yeah did.

You know, so is so so let me understand. Operating such a complex piece of machinery is not like riding a bike. I know no.

Things somehow change on their own. Oh, they feel like it and.

Oh, so the soundboard and stuff readjust itself.

Just on its own. I know I went to punch up Bob and it wouldn't punch up. Oh. And I don't know why that is and it just kind of sat there and stayed green and green and it's supposed to turn red. And it didn't turn red.

Well, hey, you know, but we finally got Bob on Bob's there and hey Bob. How you doing? Good. Are you. I'm doing great. I'll let you talk with that ground.

Well, why don't you talk? I think I'll sit back and I'll I'll let you do my part and I'll just sort of sit here and Chat with folks in the chat. Oh, no, that'd be very not only short but boring. Okay.

All right. Bye. Hi, Bob.

Hi, how are you? Good?

Alright that so that tells me that's you right there and there you go. I I Told you I told you if you said sunspots that you're gonna get kicked and you just got kicked and so it. It doesn't wait, you know what it does not matter.

I you know, I heard the words and I knew that that was you and you don't have auto rejoin on. No, there you go. So folks you have just experienced just heard. I'm not sure if this is the first time I've actually kicked the caller.

But we just kicked a caller who stayed on the air. That's an amazing thing actually see because a lot of our callers are calling up dial-up. Anyways, and they really they get they can't do that. Anyways, so anyways, Bob, what's up?

Bob is sitting there trying to spell Prasapala Guion while on the phone. That's not easy to do. It's really not. He are oh, you're a one-finger type or two, huh? That's not a good thing. Anyhow, let's get serious here for just half a second and you want to talk about.

Perseverance as well. Yep. Yeah, I just had a question on the reformed position of perseverance once. So, you know, is the perseverance a part of being Regenerated or is that something that's after? After the fact.

Or is that kind of like a continually process of perseverance plus regeneration and.

Yeah, well, you know when you think about it Perseverance is It is both demanded by the nature of regeneration and The very fact that salvation is the work of God and hence it's not going to fail. I mean Fundamentally perseverance is the result of the faithfulness of Christ To the will of the Father when you think in John 6 38 to 39 the will of the Father's that he lose none of those Given to him.

He always does will the Father all authorities been given to him in heaven and earth and so perseverance is a function of The perfection of Christ work as Savior and hence it can never be something that we boast of it Can never be something that is is a basis for our boasting.

That's the first thing to notice and then But it is also Due to the nature of The faith that is given to us the gift of faith that is given to us in regeneration The work of the Holy Spirit that that means it's the kind of faith described by the Lord Jesus in When when he says that he who endures to the end Shall be saved that is not a that is not a prescription of of how one gets saved it is a description of The The the nature of faith that it's going to persevere and so really it's it's the result of the fact that Salvation is a perfect work of God that is meant to glorify himself.

It's the result of the work of a perfect Savior and it demonstrates that the work that takes place in the heart is accomplished by the Holy Spirit of God and is not merely some human action and so when you You put all this together we can we distinguish between perseverance and Regeneration and forgiveness and adoption and what's called the ordo salutis the order of salvation in that sense and and perseverance wouldn't even be a part of the ordo salutis because it is a Description of the fact that those we see us in Romans 8 those who are just those whom he justified he also glorified and so That glorification indicates that those who are justified by faith Will be will persevere in their faith and will receive glorification.

But in our experience that is an ongoing thing. That's a daily thing. That's a big thing because the fact that we are time-bound creatures and as time-bound creatures We're walking through this life, and we experience many difficulties we experience many trials and we know the weakness of ourselves and As we grow in grace we learn of the persevering power of the Holy Spirit the preserving power of the Holy Spirit to bring us through Trials and difficulties that we never ever ever thought we would be able in fact to to survive and so all of that together Goes into The concept of perseverance itself.

That helped with your question at all. Okay, all righty, thank you Bob for calling, and I hope you get back in channel. It's it's PR OS apologia. And I and I won't kick you out unless you mention those things again.

Yeah, I can tell you you are currently being attempted to say that but I'm glad that you're holding off. So thanks a lot Bob. God bless. Let's talk to Josh down in a place. That's actually warmer if the term warm is irrelevant now a place that is broiling Even even worse than it is where I am right now, and that's that's now.

You can tell a true Arizonian by how they pronounce this it's Casa Grande but there are even people down there who get go I live in Casa Grande and. So that's that's Josh and so hi Josh item good everyone down here says Casa Grande well You know that's because that's where they live.

Do you understand what that means? Yeah? There you go there you go they have education in Casa Grande we have one high school. Yeah, oh Wow, I'll bet you I'll bet you your last valedictorian went to like Stanford or something huh?

No, I think they went to GCU maybe oh Wow oh. Hey watch it. I go to GCU so well see I went to GCU as well. And I was valedictorian in my high school, so that's why I was figuring you were taking a shot there.

Oh, no, I am I said some of the teachers you had really yeah, who did who did you have and you're gonna ask that yes? Mike Baird Baird. Oh yes, Mike Baird had hair when he first started Big long beard now yes, he does yes.

He does he started that when when I was there. Yeah, we I took him for New Testament and Old Testament history. Oh, yes. Yes, I had him for life and letters of Paul. And that's where he said well of course then I had him for seven years of Greek, and that's why he's bald now, but I Remember and I've told him about this and he swears he doesn't remember ever saying this, but we were taking a life and letters of Paul class and He I remember him saying with with great Gravity.

And you know at this point a lot of other folks in the class were like sort of asleep. Or they really weren't paying attention anymore and stuff like that. But this is a point in time when I was just eating this up.

We were reading Bruce's book On Paul and things like that and I remember dr. Baird sitting up there in Fleming classroom building. I think it was like 105 or something like that and I remember him saying now in Paul the word fear means Fear and I remember writing that down as one of the most profound statements I had ever heard dr. Baird make and I've mentioned that to him a number of times since then and he goes I said that I said yes.

You said that I quoted you said well I I win the award for profundity so anyways what's your question there Josh? Well um my question is I was listening to a debate. And I believe it was the topic was on Calvinism, and I believe the debate was between someone and Dave Hunt.

So it wasn't a great debate but Dave Hunt said I believe was against the one against Joseph Piper. Oh yes. Yes. Yes, that wasn't even a debate. That was Joseph Piper debated and Dave Hunt rambled. Yeah, well the problem with the overall debate was the topic was supposed to be the atonement and Dave debated all five points.

Oh, yes, yes, so that was just bad, but my question is He in there talked about that Calvin, but hot are you being beamed up to the Enterprise? It sound a little bit like that. You're just going up to the Enterprise, but that's okay.

Yes, yes, you're an Endorian you have all those cool little Antenna it snaps off because it's made of plastic. It wasn't glued on well enough. But and you're probably too young to remember the original Star Trek's that probably didn't make any sense to you.

No, I I watched the first Star Trek with my father when I was a little boy. Oh. Isn't that sweet on daddy's knee? Okay my question yes, did Dave Dave Hunt said that Calvin taught that God would give non-elect false assurance.

To better damn, and I was wondering Calvin, right? I know he has a hard time quoting people in context. So I'm wondering is that an accurate quote or what's what did Calvin teach that and if he did what do you what are your Thoughts on there my understanding is and I I would need to look at this specific because I think he even made that point in Our book and by that point I was so tired of all the the ad hominem silliness.

I probably about looking it up, but there is a a quote that I have seen where were Calvin in talking about The judgment of God upon false teachers and upon those like in second Thessalonians refused to love the truth that God can indeed Send a diluting influence upon someone to increase their judgment in the sense of causing them to love a lie.

And of course that's exactly what Paul said. Those who refuse to love the truth God would send a diluting influence upon them and cause them to love a lie and so It would not be Calvin's position that that is normative that God would send such a judgment upon someone in a normative situation.

But I can certainly see where where Calvin would say. And I would agree that there are situations where God is it is certainly within God's purview for example with Pharaoh to harden a person's heart so as to bring judgment and and Glory to himself in the process of so doing with Pharaoh you have that in the destruction of the gods of Egypt the demonstration of God's power.

I think we we see that in our own land in in this in a context of where people are today going far beyond where previous generations had gone in Demonstrating what the total depravity of man is really all about and what what certain beliefs really do entail and so It's one of those situations where When when Calvin's talking about a particular situation or a particular thing that God doesn't he in a particular?

Context that he will take that remove it from its contacts context and say ah see Here is this this terrible thing that's a god God in in Calvin and Calvin's writings is terrible horrible nasty person who delights to basically tortures creatures.

But in point of fact what is being discussed is the fact that God has the right? With condemned individuals to use them to his honor and his glory as he did with Pharaoh and. So I would agree with that but that doesn't mean that what Calvin said is that's what God does with all the reprobate that he's just you know toying with them and Giving them false assurance and things like that.

The irony is and of course Piper couldn't get into this because it wasn't what the debate was supposed to be about the irony is that Hunts entire position on that subject is is just Completely Irrational.

I mean I cannot understand. I can't figure it out. I tried to get into this a little bit in the book I don't know if you've seen debating Calvinism or not, but yeah, I read it I tried to touch on this and point out that in essence from his perspective There is no such thing as false faith there there as long as faith is faith.

It's real faith and That comes from the fact. He's constantly quoting Dr.. Wilkin and the the the the folks that are extremely anti Lordship and and there is no such thing as a dead faith versus a living faith the type of a Contrast and and that kind of stuff and so it it just seems to me that his position is such that that you cannot Falsify faith any person who says he has it well they must have it and yet isn't Dave Hunt known as the one who constantly is Is talking about the false faith of Roman Catholics or Mormons or others.

Isn't there a means of falsifying their faith? It's a I guess as long as it's a a professed faith in. What would he would consider an orthodox confession which by the way for for Dave Hunt does not just include trinitarian issues?

Or even gospel issues, but includes eschatological issues. I've heard him talk about a man going into apostasy because the man went from believing in the dispensational pre-tribulation rapture theory to not believing in the dispensational pre-tribulational rapture theory and.

So that's an act of apostasy. I guess so. But other than that as long as you are in the right group I guess as long as you say you have faith you've got it. You can just go out and live like I don't know what and all be well.

So I would assume that's what he's referring to I'd have to look at the specific reference to To get any further context than that, but that's that's what I have read in Calvin and hope that helps answer the question.

Well, could I ask a clarifying question? So could it be would it would it be something to the effect of maybe a person saying I believe in Christ? But yet their life doesn't show it kind of thing or would it be someone like I don't take an example person.

But a person that just is like having faith living the Christian life. Thinks they're a believer has this assurance and then on the day of judgment God's like nope. That wasn't you. Well in that in that context, I think what you'd be having the only type of false assurance would be in in the context of someone who holds is holding to a a false teaching or a false gospel and yet Testifies that that well, you know The Holy Spirit has spoken to me and the Holy Spirit is revealed to me that I do in fact, you know.

Have eternal life and so on so forth. I don't think it would be a situation. We have someone who actually Is is holding to it and I'm talking about Calvin. I'm not talking about Dave Hunt. Is it actually believes the truth?

And yet and and and has given this false sense of assurance so that they then are you know? God's just going that sorry gotcha. Haha that that wasn't the context in which I've ever heard Calvin talking about such of a such judgment judgment is never upon God's elect.

It's never upon God's people in that form and I don't see him ever believing that God's truth is used in that way instead you have those individuals and I've met I've met individuals who Honestly, they they they hold to a completely false gospel.

They hold to things that are just just directly contradicted by Scripture and yet they will talk about having assurance they will talk about having the assurance of faith and and Over a long period of time and the whole nine yards.

And so that is my assumption is what he would be referring to again. And you know unless we took the time here to you know, fire up Calvin and track down the exact reference. Which you know, it's probably in the book someplace here.

It is I can I can read the channel and do a little few things in there and a few other things while talking. But once you start trying to read and find stuff on a page, it's very very difficult to Track down stuff in that in that context.

So maybe if we had a specific context look at we get a little bit more specific with the exact application He was he was making. Okay, what an example of a group be like the LDS Church. Um, well, they're always saying, you know, I yeah spirit tell me I Testify to you that this is the true gospel.

You know in in Calvin's Europe, there wasn't anything that was that far out. I mean, I Calvin would would just roll his eyes at something like that. Just so far removed from biblical Christianity and and the very idea of it even claiming to to be biblical Christianity he would have mocked to an incredible degree, but Really, I think in his context.

He was especially talking about individuals of false teachers who were opposing him in the sense of Roman Catholics who would speak much of a sense of confidence. Which is ironic given tried and seen Roman Catholic teachings that that would in essence say you can't have that very kind of confidence that's the sin of presumption and things like that, but The idea being that there are there are individuals who can consistently testify that they have this sense of confidence and yet Biblically, they are believing something is is false and damning and hence He was saying that with some individuals again in the context of those who refuse to love the truth.

They can be caused to love a lie. And obviously those people who are loving the lie don't think it's a lie. They think it's the truth and they love it and hence they claim to love the truth. We see this and in all sorts of religions and it is a it is a judgment from God.